How to Name an English Lord | Regency Noble Titles & the Victorian Peerage Explained

[@EllieDashwood]

Are you team Lord Mayo or Lord Sandwich? -- Plus, correction: The first English Duke was the Black Prince, not his son. ☺️

[@usdutchkitty]

Sounds like it should be an episode of Veggie Tales

[@marroosh]

Lord Tuna and Mayo Sandwich

[@Thegiddyowl]

I’m Lord Not Using Ai

[@thomas_stromberg]

Let's add Earl Grey and have very steamy breakfast romance.

[@faithful2thecall]

They both lose when the heroine elopes with Lord Bacon instead.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

To quote the Dowager Countess in ‘Downton Abbey’: “If I were to ever search for logic, I wouldn't look for it among the English upper class.”

[@EllieDashwood]

😂😂😂

[@eric2500]

Lady Violet nails it again...

[@winniecox1129]

I think of this quote often.

[@IsaacIsaacIsaacson]

The sandwich is actually named after the Lord Sandwich, specifically John Montagu, 4th Earl of Sandwich, itself named after the village of Sandwich in Kent.

[@EllieDashwood]

Well, that is definitely points on his side in this love triangle debate. 😂

[@neilbuckley1613]

Lord Sandwich had a famous exchange with the radical MP John Wilkes [ presumably Lincoln's assasin was named after him ]. Lord Sandwich said Wilkes morals were so bad he would either be hanged or die of the pox. Wilkes immediately responded with " That depends on whether I embrace your Lordship's principles or mistress."

[@scattyuk]

@@EllieDashwood Also Mayo is a county in Ireland, and there was definite snobbery re the Anglo-Irish nobility at various periods, so Lord Sandwich probably gets more parental approval too...

[@calum5975]

A small sandwich fact (I'm from a neighbouring town). There's a small hamlet down the road called "Ham", which would just have meant "village" in Anglo Saxon old English. There are road signs that say HAM SANDWICH, they're a local icon. You can find pictures on Google images. Sandwich for the record is a beautiful little medieval town, it has a lovely river with lots of ducks, and a super nice path that walks along side it. Perfect for a summer's day out with the kids! It is very odd that Sandwich would have it's own Earldom though. It's a relatively small town in Kent, which is a county (typically the area that has an Earl in charge). Towns normally have Barons.

[@HTAZ2010]

Lord Mayo and Lord Sandwich as love interests would be great for a regency romance parody. I can't imagine them being used otherwise.

[@EllieDashwood]

I could see that. 😄

[@royami8627]

I need that love triangle between Lord mayo and Lord sandwich in an actual historical romance 😂

[@fairycat23]

I would love this.

[@judithstrachan9399]

Most writers avoid using real people & titles in novels, though. It would probably work in a parody.

[@wednes3day]

Reminds me of Lady Bar-Beque

[@blastulae]

Earl, from Norse jarl, was originally the only English noble title. King Canute imported it from Scandinavia. The lower rank of baron came with the Normans in 1066. Viscount, between baron and earl, and marquess, between earl and duke, were added later. “Marcher lords” guarded the borders with Wales and Scotland, so outranked earls of interior counties. Hence “marquess”.

[@missanne2908]

The current Duke of Edinburgh had the title the Earl of Wessex conferred upon him on this wedding day (his son James now uses it as a curtesy title). This is the second creation of that title. The first creation was conferred upon Godwin sometime around AD 1020. The title went extinct when Harold Godwinson died at the Battle of Hastings on October 14, 1066. I thought it was cool that the late Queen Elizabeth resurrected a Saxon title for Prince Edward.

[@blastulae]

@@missanne2908 It is cool, especially as Wessex no longer exists as a county or kingdom. Its kings became kings of the English, then of England and later the United Kingdom in its various forms.

[@shrimpdance4761]

I often wondered how barons and earls felt about these new titles being put above them.

[@blastulae]

@@shrimpdance4761 I bet they regarded kings’ creating viscounts, marquesses and dukes as another royal gambit to increase central power at the expense of old local aristocracy.

[@RichardGadsden]

Marquesses might be named that way, but (that is, for a march), but the English marcher lords were all earls - of Chester, Gloucester, Hereford, Pembroke and Shrewsbury, plus the royal Earldom of March. The word hadn't entered the English language yet at the point those titles were created. The actual marches that the first marquesses were created for were those on the eastern borders of Germany - the title was "Markgraf" (Graf is German for "count" - the title that the English earl was held to be equivalent to). In the English peerage it's always been just a fancy title, not specifically related to the marches. All of the Anglo-Saxon earldoms except Northumbria were abolished under William the Conqueror, though he did create Shrewsbury and Chester. Northumbria lasted until 1195, by which time there were a number of post-Conquest Earldoms. Viscounts weren't created until 1440, essentially as a fancier title for a baron (much as a marquess was a fancier title for an earl). There had been viscounts in Normandy before 1066, but the Norman Kings of England didn't introduce them to England, sticking just to the title of baron and a handful of earldoms (three at the lowest). By the eighteenth or nineteenth century, all of this history had been forgotten, titles were created based on the status of the person being granted the title. For example, an earldom was conventionally given to the prime minister, a marquessate to the viceroy of India. Very few peerages are actually medieval creations - vast numbers of titles became "extinct" as result of the War of the Roses (1455-1485) and the Civil Wars (1640-1660), not merely from deaths in battle, though there were many, but also from executions and purges for treason of those supporting the losing side. Some of these titles would be "regranted" later on to a wealthy relative (often someone who had married a daughter, or someone descended from such a person), others would be "recreated" for someone who was entirely unrelated (sometimes to the person who had bought the original estate, others to someone with no connection to the original title at all). Entirely new titles would also be created throughout.

[@economath8164]

[7:46] Marches were areas near kingdom borders. Marquesses and marchionesses take their titles from those regions. Since their regions were often the first lines of defense against invading foreigners, they needed more military authority to be able to better organize the kingdom's defenses; that greater authority naturally required greater rank and prestige than earls had over their counties and peers.

[@RichardGadsden]

While that's true of the original titles - that was in Germany. English Marcher lords (on the Welsh border) were Earls. The title "marquess" didn't arrive in England until long after the conquest of Wales and the end of the need for "marches" there. The name travelled from Germany to France and then on to England, which is why the name has a French form in England (rather than margrave, which is what we'd say for the German Markgraf). The title was granted in England (and later the UK) just as a higher-rank version of Earl.

[@velzanna2281]

The current Earl of Sandwich has an American daughter-in-law, actually :) she’s Viscountess Hinchingbrooke (her husband is using one of those courtesy titles).

[@economath8164]

She's got her own KZbin channel too

[@anaceciliasoares4993]

Two channels really, one of her own and one for the Family state

[@Amcsae]

​@@economath8164 Do you have the channels' titles handy?

[@trenae77]

American Viscountess is one of them

[@marguaritetherese3156]

Mapperton Live is the first channel and focuses on the estate. Julie hosted a series on the Smithsonian Channel (I think) about historic British estates and when it was cancelled they produced more for the American Viscountess KZbin channel. They are really great.

[@IsaacIsaacIsaacson]

Another add on, if your title is "Lord [last name]", and your lesser title is also Lord [Last name], your son would have to skip that title and use whatever next highest title you have that isn't your name. The same rule applied if you for example were both Marquess of Dashwood and Earl of Dashwood as two seperate titles - your son wouldn't get to be Earl Dashwood, because then you'd both be Lord Dashwood, which would be confusing. Further, for Dukes and (sometimes Earls), if you have enough titles, your eldest son's son would also get a courtesy title that is the next lowest after the one being used by your son. The Duke of Dashwood's son is the Earl of Smith and his grandson is the Viscount McRich. In a real example where this can get really confusing, the 1st Duke of Wellington's son used the title Marquess Douro. However, all other titles held by the duke were also called Douro and Wellington, and his surname, Wellesley, was in use as a title by his cousin the Marquess Wellesley, which would've left his grandson without a courtesy title to use.

[@neilbuckley1613]

Richard , Marquess Wellesley and Earl of Mornington was Wellington's older brother. The Mornington title is united with the Wellington titles now.

[@janwel74]

Thank you! Interesting as always. I would love a video about the propper rules to introduce and address people of different social status, gender and/or age, and how to navigate the order of precedence in gatherings. Also how to arrange seats in a dinner in mixed company 😊

[@EllieDashwood]

I was thinking about making that video but was worried no one would want it. 🙈 So I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks that’s interesting! 😄

[@janwel74]

@ are you kidding?? I would be thrilled to know how to introduce Mrs Elton (Emma) to Mrs Clay (Persuasion)! 😄 And see in the same table Mrs Norris (Mansfield Park), Mrs Jennings (Sense and Sensibility), Mr and Mrs Gardiner (Pride and Prejudice) and Frederick Tilney (Northanger Abby). Please do unveil the mistery of how and when is it propper to introduce two people and the rules of precedence in such situations, I’m convinced a gaffe in this regard could ruffle a few feathers!

[@babygirllss]

This!!

[@RebelLeigh]

I woul also like to see that video​@EllieDashwood

[@themadowl9224]

I would also love a video like that! ​@@EllieDashwood

[@LusiaEyre]

A love triangle between Lord Mayo, Lord Sandwich, and Lady Lettice. Yum!

[@bernadmanny]

Lady Leticia Dallop, the second daughter of the Viscount Dallop.

[@katmaresparkles9578]

Setting is Chicken Snitchzel

[@fairycat23]

Lord Sandwich's name is Reuben.

[@economath8164]

We need a Lord Bacon in there somewhere

[@peterwindhorst5775]

and the villain's name is Bacon.

[@midnightblack07]

I love your style of sharing this informative Regency/Victorian era videos, please keep them coming! 😊

[@malcagottlieb6084]

I love your quirky and whimsical style both in video making and fashion choices.

[@EllieDashwood]

Aw, thank you! 🙈💕

[@dorisschneider-coutandin9965]

A marquess was someone who'd been overseeing land in the so called "marches" (border lands between England and Scotland, or England and Wales, way back in the day). That's how the title was created. As the estates were vast/large, mostly larger than that what Earls had to look after, the marquess title was ranked higher. Today, it's only via inheritance for somebody to become a marquess.

[@renshiwu305]

The German title markgraf ("march-count") - "margrave," in English - has the same origin.

[@dorisschneider-coutandin9965]

@@renshiwu305 Exactly!

[@TophTheMelonLord]

The timing of this video was perfect. I'm reading a novel right now with a titled character and I was very confused at his father still being alive.

[@EllieDashwood]

Awww! I’m so glad it was helpful! 🤍

[@PokhrajRoy.]

I loved learning about the ranking of titles in ‘Jane Austen for Dummies’. Also, there’s a reasons why Barons aren’t always nice in period dramas. Then again, neither is the aristocracy lmao

[@EllieDashwood]

😂 Jane Austen for Dummies references is part of your lasting legacy.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

@ You should read it for livestreams

[@PokhrajRoy.]

14:39 Lady Diana Spencer was the daughter of Earl Spencer

[@janleonard3101]

And her brother Charles inherited the title and is the current Earl Spencer.

[@kelseyhancher7237]

Lord Mayo and Lord Sandwich are currently fighting over...Lady Bacon, daughter of the Viscount Oscar Meyer.

[@EllieDashwood]

The drama deepens! 😂

[@MarkTeltscher-l6b]

I have a fun inference for you:) I suggest in Northanger Abbey that Austen infers it was the Marquis of Longtowns second Son ( First Son was often referred to as a Viscount until they become Marquis ) who was the person Eleanor had feelings for and eventually married . 'Her partiality for this gentleman was not of recent origin; and he had been long withheld only by inferiority of situation from addressing her. His unexpected accession to title and fortune had removed all his difficulties;'

[@catherinedonley2781]

I might name mine Lord Mustard and plot a love triangle between him and the daughters of Lord Mayo and Lord Sandwhich🤣

[@kreeve0]

I've never been so early before! Thank you for always making my day Ellie

[@EllieDashwood]

Awww! ☺️ I’m so glad you enjoyed it!

[@faithful2thecall]

Very interesting content. It does make sense that Lord names wouldn't be the most romantic sounding in reality when you consider how the naming system worked. Keep being awesome, Ellie!

[@EllieDashwood]

Aw, thank you so much! I think that the King should have done a better job historically of only handing out romantic sounding titles. That would make all writers’ jobs easier. 😂

[@shrimpdance4761]

​@@EllieDashwoodyou can play with it, though. The villain can have an ugly-sounding title or you can switch it up and give it to the hero who everyone assumes is the villain. It would be like naming Darcy Wickham and Wickham Darcy.

[@judithstrachan9399]

EXTREMELY well done, Ellie. A few comments. It’s quite possible you’ve covered these in another video. 1 Only the oldest son, the heir, could bear the courtesy title, BUT his son might have a lower courtesy title. There is (or was) (at least) one peer, (duke?) whose *great* grandson has/had a lower title. Obviously, they were all minor & decreasing titles of the actual peer. 2 While all a duke’s or marquess’s sons were “lords”, only the *eldest* son of an earl was “Lord (first name) (surname)” his younger brothers were all only “the Honourable … “, like the sons & daughters of viscounts & barons. all his sisters got to be “Lady”: for once we women got a better deal. So, if Lady Catherine’s brother, the future earl, had a younger brother, he wouldn’t be a lord, while she & Lady Anne were both ladies. 3 The two most famous “made” dukes were Marlborough & Wellington. Both were very successful army generals. I know more about Wellington & he was awarded at least 2 other titles on the way to duke. I think. 4 There was one very famous peerage which was *originally* specifically *not* for “heirs male of the body” because the original (duke?) only had a daughter & he & the king agreed she shouldn’t miss out. 5 An adopted or illegitimate child did not have a courtesy title at all. Thus someone might have a title although he had an older brother who was a Mister. The older brother might be illegitimate & acknowledged, or adopted. This is important in two of my novels, but I’m hoping that, once the adopted daughter grew up & “came out”, nobody would really care. 6 One of the things that drive me nuts in historical novels is reading “Lord Surname” for someone who should be “Lord Firstname Surname”, usually younger son of a duke. I keep asking, “What? Did the king give him a minor peerage or what?” No, the author just didn’t research thoroughly enough. Even my current favourite author called a knight “Sir Kemsley” instead of “Sir Benjamin”. NUTS! 7 & finally (This is too long already!) There was only one young marriageable duke for most of the Regency: Devonshire. Confirmed bachelor, reputedly in love with Lady Caroline Ponsonby, later Lamb. Who was crazy for Lord Byron (only an *Irish* peer: hardly counted) & quite possibly just plain crazy. Phew. Thank you so much for doing this RIGHT, Ellie.

[@Franka.1966]

The portrait of a family at time-stamp 11:03 is the bomb...💣💥 Your video presentation is truly spot on 🤩👍

[@Franka.1966]

PS: The painting is called "portrait of Rutger Jan Schimmelpenninck and his family", by Pierre Prud'hon, 1801 - 1802

[@michellekinder3051]

A great book that describes that time is What Jane Austin Ate And Charles Dickons Knew, by Daniel Pool. It is about England in the 18th century.

[@canopusstar5157]

Two other reference books good for historical romance writers are ‘An Elegant Madness High Society In Regency England’ by Venetia Murray and ‘Our Tempestuous Day A History of Regency England’ by Carolly Erickson. I used both of these as well as the book you mentioned to write my historical Regency romance…all excellent books and much enjoyed .

[@JaneHornsby-iz9ob]

I always use Dorothy Sayers fictional Wimsey Family as examples of use of courtesy titles: Gerald, the head of the family = The Duke of Denver,. His wife = The Duchess of Denver. His mother (widow of the previous duke) = the Dowager Duchess of Denver. His oldest (and only) son = Lord Saint George (the Duke's secondary title). His sister (daughter of previous Duke) = Lady Mary Wimsey (and later Lady Mary Parker). His brother (younger son of previous duke) Lord Peter Wimsey (short form Lord Peter, never Lord Winsey). And finally, Peter's wife (nee Harriet Vane) Lady Peter Wimsey (Lady Peter, never Lady Wimsey, nor Lady Harriet). Only Gerald has a seat in the Hoyse of Lords

[@InaMacallan]

Me too! Writers of period detective fiction need to know this stuff too (there are so many 1920s detective novels currently on the market that get this wrong.)

[@RichardGadsden]

Note that if Lord Saint George were to do something that would otherwise result in him being granted his own peerage (which would typically mean serving in the House of Commons and becoming a senior politician), then, instead of granting him that peerage, the government would Advise the monarch to grant him a "writ of acceleration", which would make his title as Viscount Saint George substantive rather than courtesy. That doesn't actually change forms of address, but it would if he were an earl or higher.

[@JaneHornsby-iz9ob]

Ooooh, good one! I totally didn't know that!​@@RichardGadsden

[@RichardGadsden]

@@JaneHornsby-iz9ob It was last done in 1992, which is remarkably recent for something that seems positively archaic.

[@christinae30]

Oh, I thought Saint George was his christian name! A bit strange for a first name maybe (I'm not English), but it could be a family tradition. I have read the books many times but I don't remember any other name (his real christian name) for Lord Peter's nephew? Does anyone know?

[@karenchristinewise7833]

Mayo is a county in Ireland. The Irish/Gaeilge is Maigh Eo. The Anglicanisation is Mayo became Maigh Eo is pronounced May (silent gh) and long Oh. Different language rules. Mayo is an abbreviation of the French Mayonnaise.

[@HrHaakon]

The sauce however, is named after the famous French cardinal Richelieux' victory over the Royal Navy. So it might be a bit embarassing being a British lord Mayonnaise. It would be hard to not tease him.

[@mallminot]

Thank you so very much. I gathered almost all this reading English literature and watching costume series movies over like three decades but you made the whole thing so clear. 💕

[@inwalters]

2 side stories 1. this is an LOL and why you should always keep track of your family tree. The 11th Earl of Essex is an 80 years old childless former school teacher in the UK. His heir is his 4th cousin 5 times removed who is a retired grocery store clerk who lives in Yuba City, CA. 2. since William has become Prince of Wales as his chief title, Prince George could start using Duke of Cambridge as a courtesy title but I haven't seen any indication he will

[@missanne2908]

A courtesy title for an eldest son would be the highest subsidiary title to a peerage. William is still the Duke of Cambridge. His son George would be eligible for the courtesy title the Earl of Strathearn, which is the highest subsidiary title for the Duke of Cambridge. Prince George doesn't use the Earl of Strathearn because he obviously uses his highest title, that of prince. If King Charles dies and William accedes to the throne the title will lapse. If William were to predecease Charles, then George would become the Duke of Cambridge until he accedes to the throne and the title lapses. If both William and George predecease Charles, then Charlotte will be the next in line to the throne. The title Duke of Cambridge would then go to Louis and, if he never becomes king, the title will descend to his male heirs.

[@ashleydavis1937]

I always love the way Elle asks for likes. Lol Also, an explanation of what and why a military commission is and why it has to be purchased would be great. ❤

[@economath8164]

They aren't purchasable any longer, but when they were, it was one means of funding the officer's retirement.

[@AngelicHarmony00]

This was highly entertaining, engaging, enjoyable, and enlightening-thank you, Ellie! 😁💖 If you're up for ideas, I'd love to learn more about Regency and Victorian era clubs! I get confused when people discuss White's vs. Brooks's vs. others. Also, since some were exclusive to men while others allowed women, it's hard knowing what they were about!

[@RichardGadsden]

One thing to mention is that only those with a substantive title hold a seat in the House of Lords. Women holding titles in their own right were not admitted to the Lords until 1958 (though they had been as late as the reign of Henry VIII). There is one exception to the "only substantive titles" thing, though. If a peer has an heir apparent (normally, his eldest living son) who holds a courtesy title (so only if the peer is a viscount or higher and has a secondary title that can be granted to the heir), then they (both the peer and the heir must agree) can apply for a "writ of acceleration" which will make the courtesy title into a substantive one by accelerating the inheritance of that courtesy title. It was generally done when that heir would otherwise have been offered a peerage in their own right (usually for political reasons). For instance, Henry Stanley held the courtesy title Lord Stanley as the son of the Earl of Derby, and was accelerated to become Lord Stanley in 1844 before becoming the Earl of Derby on his father's death in 1851. Oh: and, titles were granted by the Crown on the Advice of ministers. The capital A in Advice matters: ministerial Advice means things that the monarch must do within the constitution of the UK; ministerial advice is advice, ie the monarch still make the ultimate call. At what point the advice on creating peerages became Advice is disputed, but it's probably during the Regency: George III did grant a few titles personally, George IV didn't as either Prince Regent or King. So for the period the Ellie is talking about, the monarch would usually follow their ministers early on, and absolutely treat their ministers as giving orders later on. [The monarch can disregard Advice, but that's effectively conducting a coup and trying to restore an absolute monarchy; they can do that in some sort of constitutional crisis, but they're certainly not going to be doing it on an everyday basis]

[@Pardesland]

A very interesting vid. And, by the way: You look *GORGEOUS.* ♥️♥️♥️

[@golvic1436]

Note on the origin of Marquess, both origins are kind of correct. It comes from French and German origins where it is usually a count on a borderland and because they would have more military requirements being on the border to another country that could invade, they were a step higher than Count, or Earl in England. However, England just borrowed the title to make a title that was above Earl, but below Duke. Same went for Earl. Before the Norman conquest, Earl was just any noble that was not the King. When William I showed up with his French systems, he fused Earl and Count into the same title and then added Barons, Dukes and Baronets to the system. Marquess came a little later but I can’t remember when that happened. At least that is the account I read about. Stuff that happened 1000 years ago tends to have a lot of legend behind it.

[@DavidMacDowellBlue]

I wrote a play set in 1840, in which the Earl of Fogbowe had a son called Lord Warlockshire (I presumed he was a Viscount).

[@EllieDashwood]

Oooo! That sounds so exciting!

[@delphinidin]

Period fiction writers thank you!!!

[@EllieDashwood]

Aw, yay! My aspirations have all been fulfilled!

[@judithstrachan9399]

True.

[@teucer915]

The thing about where marquesses come from is that both the stories you described are right: as a *medieval* title, it came from responsibility for the border, but in the time you're talking about specifically the "it's an Earl but even better" story is the normal one.

[@fairycat23]

I read Evelina in college. Lord Orville's name seemed, to me, neither ugly nor romantic, just some generic noble guy from a specific time period. A small part of me wondered if he ought to have a relative or friend named Lord Wilbur. I personally preferred the sweet, in-need-of-therapy poet Mr. Macartney, but I 10000% understand why Evelina wouldn't marry him! I, however, do not have that problem. :3

[@ThanksHermione]

Please do separate videos on the careers of gentlemen in the Regency era.

[@elisecollins8467]

the earl of sandwich is actually where the word sandwich comes from! one of them was a big fan apparently. I used to live near the town of sandwich - there was also a nearby village called ham, and the road sign that read 'ham/sandwich' was stolen so often they had to flip the names so it read sandwich/ham instead. I wish I was kidding.

[@MegaMetroGirl]

Now someone has to write the Mayo vs. Sandwhich book! This has satirical absurdist romcom written all over it!

[@Zerrum]

Slightly different, but it that vein - try the BBC radio programme called "Bleak House"

[@Scipio488]

This was delightful! I'd enjoy seeing you do the same with the Scottish peerage (if that is not beneath you, of course 😁).

[@roadrunnercrazy]

"They're their whole own problem. " Yes, indeed.😂

[@thomas_stromberg]

Liked the video. Now I just need to kick back and wait Royal Mail. 😁

[@nickd4310]

Titles below the rank of duke were used, hence Earl Grey tea, but gradually faded in use. You need to check what was common at the time.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

7:48 “How many Marquesses of Flintshire are there?”

[@renshiwu305]

There's a lord of Flintshire in _Downton Abbey_ and _Gosford Park._ Julian Fellowes scripted both productions. The Marquess of Flintshire AKA "Shrimpie" is Lord Robert's cousin by marriage.

[@henrikkjuus90]

My all time favorite name in fiction is NOT one belonging to a lord (though there are some present, sprinkeled throughout the story), but just a guy mentioned once in a 13 book series. The Honor Harrington series, if anyone are curious. To quote from memory " The boat bay officer that evening was a very junior lieutanant who rejoiced in the name of Hieronymus Thistlethwaite" I offer thanks to David Webber who, through his good works, have given my many a giggle as the name in question pops randomly into my head at times of boredom.

[@Turquerina]

This is the perfect video since I've been racking my mind with ideas on how to create a fictitious peeress. So for my imaginary noblewoman, she is actually the daughter of an English Earl and wealthy American heiress born towards the tail end of the 19th century. So she could be Lady Eleanor while her mother would legally be a Countess! Although her father might have an estate or county name to which he could be the Lord of, it has unfortunately not been decided since it really is hard making up an English name for me weirdly.

[@EllieDashwood]

Oooo, that that sounds so exciting! And English names can be so needlessly difficult.

[@shrimpdance4761]

I borrow from place names. Zoom in and look for those villages with cool names! I stick to the county my fictional peer is from so it sounds right. I do modify them sometimes so they sound nicer. Sometimes I make up names that just sound English. Just find a good suffix and roll with it: _gate, _ham, etc.

[@susanpilling8849]

As I was born in England and of an earlier generation this was something I was already aware of. However, I'm so glad you put it out there because some of the more modern Regency romances are very annoying. Georgette Heyer was my favourite author back in the 1960's. Anyone writing one of these books should study her work. The only slight criticism I have is your pronunciation. Please - 'patent is pay-tent and puissant is p-wee-sont (it's French). If it helps anyone there were a lot of Irish nobility with the same titles, as Ireland was part of Britain back then. My personal fictional nobleman has always been Lord Ravenwood!😅🩵

[@Louise-pe1un]

Patent when used in expressions such as “Letters Patent” is pronounced pattent and not paytent. The presenter is correct.

[@economath8164]

[8:31] The first duke in England by right was Henry of Grosmont, duke of Lancaster (created 1351), who was not himself a royal, though he was descended from Hen. 3. He was Edw. 3's 2d cousin. He died leaving only two daughters, at which point the ducal title reverted to the crown. His daughter split his two earldoms (Lancaster and Leicester). When the elder daughter, the countess Lancaster, died without issue, the younger daughter became Grosmont's sole surviving heir, holding both earldoms. She married John of Gaunt, Edw. 3's 3d son. Instead of creating a new ducal title, Edw. simply revived the Lancaster duchy by bestowing it upon John. The duchy of Cornwall (created 1337) is not held by right, but by charter (i.e., it's neither inheritable nor held by letters patent).

[@renshiwu305]

Anne Boleyn was made a lord in her own right, _suo jure:_ "Marquess of Pembroke," with that masculine form of the title. Margaret Pole, niece to two kings, and Henry VIII's mother's cousin, was made Countess of Salisbury by him. The honor harked back to her ancestors' titles.

[@mariar3767]

One thing to consider is to avoid give your character the name of a real person . That may create some legal problems . I saw some stories were famous people from the past were inserted as characters but is still different than having an actual person as your main character. I know some use real kings and people from history but i am not sure how good that usualy works . Maybe if you are already a big Hollywood writer 😅. If the Lord of X realy exists , his family may still exist and sue you .

[@EllieDashwood]

That’s so interesting!

[@mariar3767]

@EllieDashwood I dont know how many of us would be happy if we found ourself or our family members used as characters . Lord X was a drunk and cheat on his wife and those are someone's real grand grandparents . The family will not risk the fact that many readers will not bother to make a difference between a character made up and a real person . Also verify no one else has a character with the same name 😅.

[@AdrianColley]

Austen occasionally uses a long dash (-) instead of a name, when the rank of the character was too high for a fictional name to be believable.

[@toriwoodward045]

Hi Ellie! Regular viewer here. I was curious if we could get a video about the difference between being “out” in society and not? I came across a section of Jane Austen’s writings where a gentleman discusses with dislike the great contrast being a girl’s dress and behavior before vs immediately after coming out. I’d love to know more’

[@misscarolinasousa]

My story feature fictional nobility, so I've had to make up lots of titles. I used some existing rules, made up others and for the place names, it was a combo of medieval names + suffix for places. It gave me titles like marchioness of audrington, countess of juetsby, duke of ashenfort, count of dewton

[@daughterofbastet]

A great and informative video! Btw, "marquess" does pronounce the R-I'm guessing you've only heard it said by people without rhotic Rs in their dialects (Rhode Island, posh English, etc.).

[@blastulae]

Edward III created the first English dukedom for his eldest son, Edward, the Black Prince. The title wasn’t created by that Prince of Wales. After the BP’s death, ERIII created the title Duke of Cornwall anew for his grandson Richard, who became the ill-fated Richard II. The next two ducal titles were of Lancaster and Clarence. Lancaster was first not for a son of ERIII, but eventually went to his third son John of Gaunt. Clarence was for Edward’s second son Lionel. Richard later made his two other uncles dukes as well. This was all in the 14th century.

[@Pardesland]

You've just given me *a Great Idea* with the Mayo Sèmvich. 😂

[@orionspero560]

My understanding is that in about half the cases where it's specified for peerages and the scottish registrate it is male preference primagainature, as opposed to mail only primagainature. Ps sandwiches were named after the earl of sandwich, not the other way around

[@peterwindhorst5775]

I would go with Earl (ie Earl of Rotherwood) if their ancestry goes back before the Conquest. If their ancestors came after the Conquest - Count (Count Dracula ) or Viscount.

[@yutgorpotungyun]

Oh, I read a fanfic using Dashwood as their character’s family name with a nobility title( Forgot if it’s an Earl or baron) which the author claims to have died out some years ago and I searched and there is a baron with the surname Dashwood as recently as 1966. 😮😮😮

[@stephenandersen4625]

Prior to the Barons… there were the Earls. An Anglo-Saxon title prior to the Norman Conquest. Dukes, counts, viscounts, barons are later additions. Thanks to the Normans

[@AnneRollo-xt1tb]

Hi Ellie. I love your videos. So informative. Thank you for your research and detail. I have a question regarding introductions. Your video about introductions was really interesting and the structure and rules about who introduces to who etc is fascinating. But I am puzzled by Mrs Bennet asking Mr Bennet to go and call on Mr Bingley. How is it that Mr Bennet can just go and call on Mr Bingley to create their acquaintance for their family. Is that an exception to the usual introduction rules? Thank you

[@EllieDashwood]

That is a great question! I believe I cover that in my video social calls: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h6XPoZ2JlNN6prc. But, basically, yes! When a new family first moves into a neighborhood in the country, local families were supposed to call on them to welcome them. If Mr Bingley had a wife, Mrs Bennet would have made the call. But since he was a single gentleman, it was all up to Mr Bennet.

[@AnneRollo-xt1tb]

Thank you so much. How interesting. Sooo many rules.

[@FelinaofL2]

I love that Dukes are called "Your Grace" since they're SO much better than everyone, because it makes the character Duke Wriothesley (from Genshin Impact) so much more entertaining: a former criminal, now prison warden, being called "Your Grace" and he's above a lot of other fancy people in rank. I can just imagine how SCANDALIZED the British peerage would be.

[@cherylruhr6001]

The best upperclass names are found in PG Wodehouse

[@renshiwu305]

And Evelyn Waugh.

[@judithstrachan9399]

All Georgette Heyer’s dukes were named for rivers.

[@efjay3183]

Very elucidating!

[@morganrrhaze]

I always thought the English used the French pronunciation of marquess with the end sounding like keys

[@bartolo498]

In French the final s would be silent, unless it''s a woman: a marquise. For some reason that title seems more common knowledge French history and literature.

[@sha.elaine]

There is a series of stories posted on the Derbyshire Writer's Guild by an author named Shemmelle...very talented author. Anyway, one of the reasons I like these works was that Catherine Bennett is the heroine, not Elizabeth AND the male lead is called Viscount Ashborne, Richard Fitzwilliam's older brother, the heir to the Earl of Matlock. He is a fabulous, dashing character and they called him Ash for short. Look it up, you will enjoy. But I always think that is my favorite made up noble name ;)

[@mittenista]

I ship Sandwich with Mayo. Miss Hamncheese will have to fend for herself.

[@TreyCapnerhurst]

LADY Hamncheese, if you please!

[@jillianmakes]

Question, can you have different peerage levels for the same place, such as The Earl of Kent, and Vicount of Kent?

[@EllieDashwood]

Yes! You can. At which point the oldest son would have to use an alternate name so their titles aren’t the same. Either an even lower rank’s title like a barony, or some families legit just made up an alternate name. 😄

[@renshiwu305]

The "Duke of Kent" is a title and he's the second cousin of the late queen. I can't think of any titles that share toponyms.

[@judithstrachan9399]

I looked up some websites & there are a few minor titles that aren’t used because they’re the same as the major one.

[@ninaandianfan21]

LOL I was waiting for the earl of sandwich to come up 🤣 I was watching a lot of this channel called American viscountess and they have something to do with it she mentiones it all the time xD

[@aksez2u]

The current Earl of Sandwich has an American wife who is a KZbinr. She has a channel called Mapperton Live: This (un)Aristocratic Manor Life. It's like a Hallmark movie come to life. I feel like you might know about them, but would you have said their title was weird and ugly if you knew they worked in the same office as you? 😄 LOL Edit: Oops, I think his dad may still be alive and he is HEIR to the title.

[@chaepark8720]

Have you watched Austenland with Keri Russell and JJ Feld?

[@EllieDashwood]

I haven’t in years! But I love the book series!

[@chaepark8720]

@ it was so funny. JJ looked wonderful!🔥🔥🔥💖💖💖

[@calum5975]

A note on female spouse titles. If a woman was to marry a man (2nd born son or less)with a courtesy title, she would adopt that courtesy title too but in a different way. Her title would be her husbands name. For example, Lord Henry Somerset (distant son of the Duke of Beaufort, not a real Lord) married and his spouse became "Lady Henry Somerset". The spouse does not get to be "Lady Somerset" because that would lead to confusion. She can only claim the surname by association to a 2nd or later born son, shes not a "true" Somerset. Ironically, 2nd born commoners may pass on the family surname, but the nobility cannot.

[@LaurenCohen67]

@elliedashwood , can you please discuss the commission issue? Could a non member of the gentry become one by having a commission in the army?

[@EllieDashwood]

What defined the gentry was owning enough land to earn enough income off of its rents to support the bare minimum level of gentility. That was the most basic entry point. So, a commission in the army alone would not make someone part of the gentry. But I do know I need to go into commissions in the army more in depth in a future video!

[@LaurenCohen67]

@EllieDashwood thank you :-) I will be awaiting your video on this 🤗🌸

[@nancyheitmeyer9976]

The current Earl of Sandwich has an American daughter-in-law who has KZbin channel the American Viscountess. She films tours of historic British homes. Also she and her husband Viscount Hinchingbrook run the family home Mapperton and have a KZbin Channel about the running of Mapperton. Interesting channels for anyone who loves the historical homes.

[@angelogarcia2189]

A Count ruled a county. That's where the term comes from.

[@HrHaakon]

Imagine the Earl of Black marrying Lady White, uniting the too houses into a brand new fragrant Earldom.

[@nebucamv5524]

Ellie, this is a fantastic opportunity to ask you something. I happen to write a novel taking place around 1750. I'm German and have read a lot about English peerage but I'm still not sure if my plot start actually would work. Could you help me? My female protagonist is the only daughter of an Earl who just had died. Her brother, the only heir, is missing in the colonies (New England). No one can find him or knows if he even lives. Am I right that my protagonist has no access to the money of her father? Does she need her brother's permission? Would it be suitable for her to go on a journey to search for her brother because otherwise she would get broke? Or would the English authorities do something to find him? What happens when they can't find him for years and it stays unclear if he is dead? What would happen to the properties and money of my protagonist's father? Would she get it all? Or would she lose everything? I know it's a complicated plot but I would love to use it! 😁 Thanks for your help in advance! ❤

[@selwynevonbeereskow8053]

I would guess that she has no direct claim to her fathers fortune and estate. That would probably held by a steward till the heir is found or proclaimed dead. But her father might have done the sensible thing and settled money on his daughter as a dowry. So she can live of the interest of this money. Plus if her mother is still alive she might get financial help by her. Or if the mother is dead she has an inheritance of her. And I would presume that she will be able to continue living on her late fathers (and now her brothers) estate for the time beeing. So she should not be destitute. But perhaps the chosen steward is not really trustworthy and rather works for his own profits. Perhaps she starts searching for her brother to save the family's fortune.

[@Pardesland]

Had the Earl of Orville used to sit to Dinner with Bortus? Was he Best Friends with Yaphit?

[@sherylcascadden4988]

When I was playing D&D our DM elevated our adventuring party to be "Lords and Ladies of (name of city)". This was meant to be an honorific lesser than knighthood, and only applied to our characters, not being assumable or transferrable to others. I knew at the time (30 years ago) it didn't work that way in England, but this was just fantasy for the sake of having fun. Seeing Downton Abbey (decades) later brought home just how out of touch we Americans are when it comes to Titles and honorifics. This video helped me a lot, and my only remaining question is, if a male knight is addressed as "sir", what do you call a female knight? Amd let's just skip Britomart being this lady's knight and that knight's lady.

[@JudithOpdebeeck]

i mean as many people probably know, the sandwich (food) was named after the Sandwich (lord), so while funny, it makes perfect sense. and i reckon lord Mayo refers to the place in Ireland. which has nothing, culinary nor etymologicly, to do with the condiment

[@magical11]

Wasn't earl one of the oldest English titles? It's an old anglo-saxon/norse word "Jarl" and predates viscounts, dukes, and marquess; the title was established after 1000 something by cnut. It might even predate baron in its strictest form.

[@EllieDashwood]

That’s interesting!

[@JaneHornsby-iz9ob]

Yeah, it's the Anglo-Saxon equivalent of "Count" which is why an Earl's wife is a "Countess" (We wouldn't want her to be "earless", poor girl!) And why the next lower rank is "Viscount" like Vice-Count or lesser Count (Count-let, perhaps?)

[@JaneHornsby-iz9ob]

The title "Duke"could be given to a royal, but eventually become non-royal. For instance, Prince Harry's son Archie can inherit Harry's title "Duke of Sussex" and pass it on if he has a son. Archie is a Prince (son-of-a-son-of-the sovereign).But Archie's son -assuming he has one - will NOT be a Prince (the royalty evaporates in the third generation - or we'd all be royal by way of Charlemagne) but will be Duke of Sussex (if titles and royalty still even exist then.) Oddly, this seems to have has never happened to the title Duke of York - which is traditional for the Monarch's second son. Seems the Duke of York always winds up having no sons (like Prince Andrew, current Duke of York, only daughters) or becomes King himself (previous Duke of York, aka George VII, father of Queen Elizabet II). The title reverts to the crown and is then available for the Sovereign to parcel out again -as Elizabeth did - to his/her own second son.

[@AdrianColley]

It was originally ealdorman (Anglo-Saxon, meaning "senator"), but it was shortened to earles to better match the word jarl (Old Norse, meaning "chieftain") after the Norse invasion. When the Norman invasion brought the title of Count, and its pronunciation happened to collide with a very unsavoury Anglo-Saxon word, the invaders decided to replace Count with Earl to avoid any unwanted comedy.

[@JaneHornsby-iz9ob]

@@AdrianColley What was the unsavory Anglo-Saxon wor . . . .OH!

[@andreascj73]

Earl of Greystoke ... Tarzan, go Tarzan. Also, Admiral Sir John Jervis, was made Earl of St. Vincent outside Portugal where he won a sea battle against the Spanish Navy, and Horatio Nelson became Duke of Bronte in the Italian Kingdom of Sicily and allowed to use the title in Britain as well while being a British Viscount, and from there is becomes muddy to say the least.

[@AdrianColley]

Fun earl fact: formal royal letters or writs traditional refer to an earl with the phrase "trusty and well-beloved cousin". This tradition started with king Henry IV, whose earls were literally all related to him. (Source: Blackstone's Commentaries, book 1, "of the Civil State", at 398).

[@fairycat23]

Would the son of a noble then be able to announce his father's death with the bittersweet statement, "I am now Lord Sandwich"? Like, imagine the way Lord Reuben, first son of the Lord of Sandwich, deals with his father's death is telling his best friend he's now Lord of Sandwich. (It's big, "I'm Firestar now" "Congratulations! But that must mean Bluestar is dead. I'm sorry" energy.)

[@missanne2908]

You never announce yourself by your titles!! That is terrible form!! For an example of this watch the movie _The Go-Between._ Lord Trimingham introduces himself to (a very young) Leo as Hugh Trimingham, and tells him he can call him Trimingham or Hugh. Only when Leo asks why shouldn't he call him Mr. Trimingham does Hugh confess to Leo that he isn't a Mr. Trimingham because he is a viscount. BTW, this includes any title, including Mr., Miss, Ms., or Mrs. For an example of this, look at Chapter 3 in _Lost Horizon._ Chang says to Conway 'My name is Chang, if you would be so good as to present me to your friends.' Conway does so by saying 'Miss Brinklow ... Mr. Barnard, who is an American ... Mr. Mallison .... and my own name is Conway.' So how do other people know your titles? If other people don't know about your titles, it is better that they remain ignorant than that you tell them yourself. I've got a real life example for this. My grandmother had made friends of a married couple; she was an American and he was English. I had known them for years when one day at lunch the wife said to her husband that when was tidying his desk she ran across his investiture papers. He was a knight and I never knew about it, nor did he ever refer to himself as such.

[@katmaresparkles9578]

I find the whole Earl/ Countess thing disconcerting. So I came up with a solution for that. Earl is a separate and higher title than Count. Therefore making an extra level for titles to come from. So 3 upper and 3 lower nobility titles. Duke/ Duchess, Marquess/ Marchioness, Earl/ Earletess, Count/ Countess, Viscount/Viscountess, Baron/ Baroness. I also thought about Baronet/ Baronetess, as well as Sir/Dame.

[@JaneHornsby-iz9ob]

No Counts in British nobility. Earl is the equivalent. Wife of an Earl is a Countess.

[@katmaresparkles9578]

@JaneHornsby-iz9ob yes I know that.

[@amazinggrace5692]

Orville Redenbacher of popcorn fame is what I think of the name Orville.

[@rivenoak]

for a famous Baronet: Sir Thomas Bond was real, but James Bond is ofc fictional (while Ian Fleming made up a long and winded relation between them in his novels) the movie title "The World Is Not Enough" is a reference to Sir Thomas as _Orbis Non Sufficit_ was the Baronet's motto in his arms for courtesy titles: "Little Lord Fauntleroy" rings a bell ? that was the lower title to Earl of Dorincourt :) more fun with titles had the germans: simply every legal descendant got the title if the ancestor got one. but it was a mess obviously with for example 3 sons 5 grandsons and 9 great grandsons and all their sisters and daughters. you were in dire need of knowing the whole ancestry to know who was who and related to whom. :D

[@jenniferwatson2107]

“She is a Vicountess!”

[@qienna6677]

A woman inheriting would also be dependent on whether the title had an entail, yeah? It was what blocked Mary from inheriting, if and when her Father died.

[@bernadmanny]

Titles were not regulated by entail, but by descent. Entails were related to cash and property. Which is why they sometimes became seperated from the title.

[@ElectraDashwood]

Why is Lord Mayo terrifying?

[@EllieDashwood]

I was wondering the same thing. I think he is up to no good.

[@ChuJungyin]

Fun fact before the Acts of Union 1800/1801 that united Ireland with the Kingdom of Great Britain, British MPs could be made Irish peers and still serve in the British House of Commons.

[@economath8164]

It is possible to have two nobles called Lord X if one is a peer of England and the other of Scotland, etc. Moreover, if the title and place in Scotland have the same name, then it'd be "Lord X of that ilk"

[@ObsidianMoonChild]

Wait, I thought Marquess was pronounced Mar-Key

[@doublequilI]

I like What a Girl Wants, so I'll go with Lord Dashwood. lol. That movie is better than it gets credit for.

[@EllieDashwood]

I completely forgot about that movie!!! I loved it so much when I was a teen.

[@Ithilwen22]

Orville is a romantic name if you love popcorn 😆

[@EllieDashwood]

So incredibly true. 😂

[@jturn103]

My ancestors was once earl of the Bothwell before they was accused of witchcraft, try to plot treason against monarch. Later on they died in poverty while in exile in italy. The title now is extinct but however if British monarch ever..

[@nickd4310]

The wife of an earl is a countess, while his son is a viscount. The Normans however chose not to call the men counts because it sounded like a vulgar English word.

[@FaerieDust]

This is one of those things that really bothers me when authors get it wrong lol 😂 I can suspend my disbelief for a LOT, but calling Lady Catherine Lady de Burgh? Same with when people write Mrs. instead of Ms. (Happens a lot with Pepper Potts in Iron Man/ Marvel fic).

[@elisekehle8520]

can you clarify the situations wherein a title may be used as a surname but not a title, a la Alfred, Lord Tennyson? iirc he was a second son of a peer so he got to use the title as a surname but not as a courtesy title?

[@Louise-pe1un]

He was made a Baron by Queen Victoria. I always believed the curious form of his title was contrived as a way of retaining his first name, by which he was well-known and which he still used in his published work. Normally the correct form would simply be Lord Tennyson. Lord Alfred Tennyson would have been impossible, as his father (a rector) was not a member of the nobility.

[@elisekehle8520]

@Louise-pe1un Ah, thank you!

[@RonJohn63]

Given that it's "Lord ", not "Lord ", a better video title: "How to *Title* an English Lord".