How to Play Evil Characters - RPG Philosophy

[@jasonhendricks4802]

My daughter, playing her first game, summed it up pretty nicely, “If everyone knows I’m evil how will I get anything done?”.

[@TriMarkC]

Smart kid! Proud poppa!

[@grandadmiralahab9085]

Refer her to... politics. Her question will be answered.

[@patrickmiklos7008]

@@TriMarkC q

[@konberner170]

Usual answer is guns and lies.

[@Tony-dh7mz]

“If everyone knows I’m evil how will I get anything done?”. ....cheating

[@thetimebinder]

"Villans who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot. Those that cloth themselves in good deeds are well camouflaged." -Jean-Luc Picard

[@Alresu]

With this quote you set me on the path to create a mustache twirling text book evil guy who is absolutely good. Not even as a distraction from a real villain, just to make my players paranoid.

[@Tony-dh7mz]

Most people don't know the difference between bad and evil, Prisons are full of bad people, but few are evil, If you want to find evil, they will tend to be wearing a suit, sitting behind a desk, in an office, Study how to spot a psychopath, The channel "The Enlightened Target" is a good place to start

[@samuelbroad11]

I have a twirly moustache and babies cry, almost always..what do they know?

[@Buttercar420]

Such Wisdom, Once again proving that Picard is the best Captain!

[@herringnjd]

[@damonbell2059]

imagine a Chaotic evil life domain cleric referring to the rest of the party before a battle, "go forth my reusable cannon fodder"

[@unvoicedapollo3318]

Ok...new character idea. Thank you

[@Carpatouille]

Sounds like words written for a character to be evil for the sake of evil, if he says it and the party hear him. It's perfectly fine if he only think it though.

[@dDoodle788]

​@Carpatouille to be fair, if the character up until that point has been making jokes, it would be easy for the party to dismiss it as dark humour. Most of the time the difference between a truly evil person and a grumpy/cynical/ mean one is weather or not they actually mean it.

[@Owl_of_Omens]

Yeah that is kind of the evil character that you get the feeling that they're just going to obstruct what the other members of the party are doing. It feels cool to be able to say stuff like that and really make yourself a superstar in the lineup. But that's the pathway towards horror stories. I played multiple evil characters and very rarely did the entire party even know

[@allenthiele1804]

I have a hard time getting DMs to let me play evil characters. "All evil characters do is kill and steal from their party," they say. "Why would I steal what's already mine and kill the people carrying it for me?" I retort.

[@1IGG]

Simple: be evil, but never to a player. Unless that player also consents.

[@dDoodle788]

Also, most people tend to conflate "evil" with " psychopath ". Evil people can love, feel emotion, or even have ideals. The difference is that they can be horrible to those that they don't believe to be worth anything. An example: a very arrogant noble may love his family with all his heart, but still treat peasants as less than animals, because in his mind, "peasant are his property."

[@Rikard_A]

The problem is that evil in many games are sadistic. I personally play an character that is highly pragmatic to acheive my goals. Stealing money or weapons from comrades in arms is a detrenant to acheive those goals.

[@Rikard_A]

​@@dDoodle788I would say sadistic.

[@MySqueezingArm]

*Slaps roof of evil character* This baby has a rich backstory, interesting motivation, and still meshes with the group. He may be evil, but it just works much better this way.

[@willieearles3151]

I’ll take four or five and have them delivered to my table, please. *Oh yeah, it’s all coming together.*

[@TheTriforceDragon]

My goto example will always be Raistlin Majere from the Dragonlance novels. Self-centered and power obsessed mage, who nonetheless realized that his bad health left him vulnerable and thus sticks with and helps the main group for protection and support, all the while searching for ways to gain power. When he finally gets enough power to overcome his health problems, he still feels he owes the people who (even if unknowingly) helped him get to that point and makes a point of repaying his debts before cutting ties with the group for good and embarking on his own grander schemes.

[@lynxfirenze4994]

Yeah, I'm playing a great evil character atm with similar philosophy. He's also doing a lot of good at the same time, both because he isn't totally vile and because he understands the simple truth: he could rob that village of whatever they have, quite easily, but if he protects them instead they'll happily become his subjects and pay taxes etcetera. Same for a 'retainer' he 'recruited'. Sure he could probably have forced her to obey him with enough violence/intimidation but by rescuing her children and ensuring their wellbeing he gained a willing slave rather than a resentful one. But honestly I could talk about him for ages.

[@salbitamartinez6699]

​@@lynxfirenze4994that is very interesting, I am currently in the process of creating a "villain" PC and I'm trying to figure it out so it mixes well with other villains as it is a villains campaign.

[@Kittykattarina]

Most real life evil disguises itself as good, so being evil in a game doesn't mean flaunting your evilness at every opportunity. You still need to function in society.

[@Lorian667]

The young Voldemort in Hogwarts was quite charming and nice to his teachers in order to get political power and acces to hidden knowledge.

[@mattinthehat3]

Precisely. Very well put.

[@PaulGaither]

@@thundermarkperun1083 - Well, moreover, Satan IS an angel of light. He is Lucifer, the Morning Star. Maybe you know it, but not everyone who may read my comment might: Devils are NOT "the Devil". Devils are lower beings in the hells. Subservants to Demons in many cases. The various named demons and devils often get confused for the biblical Satan/Lucifer by an average person.

[@mmestari]

​@@PaulGaither There's multiple different mythologies considering Satan, Lucifer, devil and demons. That is just your interpretation of it, and it's not really even that well-informed. These various mythologies were made up over time by different people, mostly as stories to condemn pagans and heretics or as attempts of systematization. There's not one cohesive consensus truth regarding them, that the "average person" just doesn't know.

[@mal2ksc]

@@PaulGaither Devils inhabit the Nine Hells (Lawful Evil), while Demons inhabit the Abyss (Chaotic Evil) and the two are perpetually at war with one another (the Blood War). At least that's how the cosmology stands as of 5e.

[@Xlayerful]

I'm glad you made a distinction between evil and villainous.

[@stevenwilkerson2372]

There's also another term that should be used and that is monstrous. I think this is the detrimental PC that even if the player doesn't want to be that guy they might end up becoming that because the character they created forces their hand. Something like a vampire who has to feed or some other physiological or psychological reason that they have to do evil constantly.

[@Gh0stClown]

One of the most memorable campaigns I ever played was as an all-goblinoid evil party. The idea was we had to build up our goblin tribe and take over the horrible swamp we all lived in. We basically got to be cartoon bad guys, it was brilliant.

[@almitrahopkins1873]

I had a goblin fighter/rogue I played in a normal game who built up a legitimate guild of bounty hunters and a guild of thieves, smugglers & fences at the same time. He wasn’t a villain, he was an anti-villain, but he was also Chaotic Neutral, not evil. He created a status quo in the underworld of the DMs campaign world.

[@HoundofOdin]

"Hello internet, Seth Skorkowsky." Hearing that phrase immediately makes my day better.

[@AaronAlso]

I didn't think we were allowing you access to the internet Dr. Bright. I'm going to have to check with the O5 Council for conformation.

[@Axiom_Link]

Yes!!! And I’ve now binged enough of these brilliant videos that I’m starting to self narrate his voice in my head through the day 🤓🥸

[@Eemi_Seppala]

I wonder if it ever converts into "Hey hey people, Seth here".

[@MrMoros1]

I'm reminded of a Lawful Evil character played by a friend in a campaign a while back. He was a Lawful Evil Battlemaster Fighter named Istvaan, the last remaining member of a family of minor nobles. He was born with severe sociopathic qualities, traits that commonly occurred in men in the family, causing him to develop sadistic tendencies and bloodlust. But he eventually found a way to channel his dark nature into productive means as a mercenary. In doing so he was able to satisfy his sadism by mercenary work to become a productive and fuctional member of society; hunting down bounties and killing monsters while breaking no laws and always paying his taxes with fairly earned coin. And if he happened to take a much more visceral satisfaction in his work than most, well....who's complaining? He only goes after criminals or monsters anyways, and there's never any shortage of those around.

[@vertigq5126]

The book “The Black Company” is an excellent example of an evil character claiming the protagonists as “theirs.” Soul Catcher is a terrifying and patently evil character, but she protects the protagonists as her tools and even maintains an eerie almost-rapport with them, with the result that the reader is always a bit uncertain about the relationship between Catcher and the protagonists. It definitely makes for fantastic tension.

[@jerrycunningham1820]

Love Glenn Cook. One of my favorite authors.

[@mikegould6590]

Great topic. There are many reasons a villain might act in the interest of helping another. 1. "They're my sheep. Only I get to fleece them." - this is the "my property" theory you brought up. Much like an abusive older brother, the villain rises up because they feel compelled by an "us vs. them" mentality. (Dr. Doom is like this. Hell, Doom even helped to deliver Valeria Richards when Sue was in labour. The price? He got to name her after his mother) 2. Association. - "I don't care about your agenda. She does, though and I need her. That makes you necessary for now." 3. Convictions. - "I have rules. One of those is proper manners. You've treated this person very poorly without any cause, and I cannot tolerate such crude behaviour. Just because I'm a criminal doesn't mean I have standards." (These are both like Raymond Reddington, and the third is like Dr. Hannibal Lector) As an example, I played an evil Draconic Sorcerer once in the "Princes of the Apocalypse" storyline (a poor module, but that's another story). I immediately started using my resources to repair the main town when attacked. I improved the school. I romanced one of the well known citizens. I paid for walls to be erected around the town, and contacted the criminal organization I dealt with to add extra hands to do so. I reinforced the town defenses with those same thugs. When the town was attacked, I made sure that the citizens saw me doing it, holding nothing back. When opponents were captured, it was be who interrogated them publicly and also me who executed them. When the local sheriff questioned me, I had him killed too. By that time, the citizens had seen me find cultists and defend their community. They had seen me build up and improve their community. They saw me take the time to become one of them by developing key relationships. They didn't rise up. I was their hero, and this was MY town. When the citizens realized my nature, it was too late. Even the other player characters, who suspected my alignment, did what PCs do and spent their money on themselves. They didn't play politics. They didn't play the long game. When they realized what I had done, I had a fortified town and a small army. Evil doesn't have to be stupid, but it often has to be patient. Evil requires discipline, and it requires standards.

[@Carpatouille]

It's funny how convictions can get a character or people to be good, neutral or evil at the same time.

[@Meatball996]

Or an evil character might just really like and be friends with the other characters. Just because they both have different morals doesn't mean they aren't friends

[@1238a8]

What's even evil about it?

[@AngelicBeatdown]

Very Kingpin like

[@RomanQrr]

The one thing I can say on "how to play an Evil character" is "Don't betray your party without a really good reason that they know of." I think being evil or good is all about breaking or upholding the implicit and explicit social contracts. Good characters follow those contracts, uphold them, create them, and even punish those who break them. Evil characters break those contracts, subvert them to their means, and avoid or redirect the punishment for doing so. But the adventurer party is build on implicit and explicit social contracts. As such the Evil character needs to know to not break those. To be Good within the party, but Evil outside of it. The party offers protection. deniability, reputation. Do not shoot your only shield in the back. That's bad for your health.

[@cameronjames3499]

Exactly, a vandal usually doesnt destroy/graffiti their own car even if they take great joy in doing it to other's. Sure their car might eventually break down from neglect or because they run it a bit harder than is prudent or hit a tree, but they dont set out to wreck it.

[@girlbuu9403]

Depends on the game and the players. Honestly if there is never any interparty turmoil a game can get boring for me. You have to rub up against each other at some point. That doesn't mean murder your friends in their sleep unexpectedly. But it can mean arguing with each other, yelling at one another, getting into fist fights, and even sabotaging minor goals. These things can happen in an all Lawful Good party and never happen in an all Chaotic Evil party. Some of the best games I have ever played involved a little PVP too... though some of the worse have as well. It is very circumstantial and unbelievably difficult to quantify. But I think it can be summed up like this. There is no wrong way to play a table top RPG. Just people with different expectations clashing.

[@stevenwilkerson2372]

@@thundermarkperun1083 I think it's better not to just think of them as a gang or understand that even gangs have goals. Unlike in a lot of media there's a reason they exist and understanding that reason is important on how they will function. You can be an extremely evil character and follow the letter of the law and yet commit untold evil acts using the law. You don't have to be a criminal by definition may be you remove your enemies through surreptitious means but you're never the one that ends up killing them, it's always the law. Finally yeah there is no honor among thieves so people will betray each other when it suits them so it's important as a GM when dealing with PCs it might be a good idea to try and create those circumstances for different PCs at different times.

[@stevenwilkerson2372]

@Al Kirk Also you can spend the entire campaign very subtly pushing the party to maybe make some bad decisions. Maybe you encourage them to remove the corrupt aristocracy of your homeland knowing there's no one else to fill the power vacuum, maybe you need certain items and artifacts to learn or create your devious master plan. There are so many reasons why as an evil PC you might want to travel with the goody two shoes and ate them in their adventure.

[@khatack]

No, those social contracts are law vs chaos. Evil is about malice, a lawful evil character uses those social contracts to cause pain and suffering to others, they use it to do evil. A selfish character is not an evil character, an evil character might very well be utterly selfless in service of a greater evil, even though they might see that evil as good. A suicide bomber is evil. A sadistic torturer is evil. A genocidal tyrant who desires power in order to hurt others with it is evil. An evil character is necessarily a sort of villain, that doesn't exclude him from being a hero or side with the heroes when it suits them, but all evil characters are EVIL, they are MALICIOUS, not just selfish. An evil character doesn't simply want to destroy, they want to DEFILE.

[@Julian_The_Apostate]

Neutral Evil was one of my favorite alignments, I envisioned them as the best way to represent the true mercenary protagonist of the old morally grey Pulp Fantasy. Cold blooded, pragmatic, aloof but not a total destructive maniac. Unless somebody needs him to be...

[@hammond1994]

Neutral Evil was great. You might do nothing even remotely evil, then suddenly *BOOM*.

[@dirus3142]

Same with one of my characters from years back. he was also a follower of Mask. Even though he was in a party with two fighters who fallowed Helm. I even had a goal in mind. To help Mask take back part of his portfolio he lost to Cyric. Unfortunately one of the players got paranoid thinking I was going to kill him and was secretly plotting to betray every one and kill them all. He was wrong, but right, but mostly wrong. I was not planning on killing any player characters.

[@davidbrennan660]

Evil is means to the end....... you are flexible.... a problem solver. They might not be liked but sometimes they are useful to know.

[@The_Custos]

Same.

[@girlbuu9403]

I feel this way about Lawful Evil, Machiavellian shit is just the best. Lord, I have so many stories I could tell. So instead of a text dump I will just say this. My favorite evil character gave to the poor, were heroic, inspiring, but also a raging sadist who valued their own ascent into power, both magical and societal. They were so controversial and convoluted to the rest of the party that the Paladin ended up on her side when things went south, knowing she was evil and that the companions he was about to fight with were neutral simply because she wasn't being the wangrod and she was ultimately more beneficial to society.

[@Zedrinbot]

I'm playing in Hell's Vengeance right now as a player, an all-evil pathfinder campaign. We did some very evil things like rebuilding and protecting a hospital, lmao. we have a hard time being bastards.

[@BJGvideos]

Reminds me of how the yakuza will often spent a lot of money and time in disaster aid. They're doing "good" in order to build up public relations and encourage people to look the other way when it comes to their criminal acts.

[@invinciblemic]

Any thoughts on the campaign overall? Me and my players find it to be kinda meh in the first chapter.

[@Santzlol]

@@invinciblemic I'm dming it, you have to improve it a bit, but my players loves it

[@Zedrinbot]

@@invinciblemic book one is weak. It opens up into a sandbox in book 2. Book 1's biggest faults is it basically sets your party up to be a bunch of fall guys and doesn't give you enough incentives.

[@wendigo1619]

my group rip the wings off angels and steal their power through r*pe before selling them as slaves how hard is it to be even remotly evil

[@Bluecho4]

19:15 "It's not like I didn't shoot you because I like you, b-baka."

[@dubuyajay9964]

"Yare yare daze..."

[@pyra4eva]

When he pointed out that the group could be seen as "theirs" when it comes to the evil pc, it reminded me of my friend's evil character. He was all about one of the pcs so was all about killing the big bad because how dare anyone mess with his lil adopted nephew. XD he took it as a personal slight.

[@IamtheTolle]

I once convinced a dm to let me play a mind flayer who was very curious. He wanted to learn more about adventuring and treated the pcs more like pets for a while. He also almost exclusively referred to the party as his sweets.

[@pyra4eva]

@@IamtheTolle that's something i would 100% get behind XD

[@IamtheTolle]

@@pyra4eva He was a little op, but I frequently reminded the party they were the heroes, not me.

[@The_Custos]

The main character in the book White Tiger also lied, cheated, stole, killed, and protected his nephew. Turned against the rural Mafia, left the rest of his shady family to die (they may have killed his mother).

[@pyra4eva]

@@The_Custos now i gotta read this. Sounds like it's in my wheelhouse.

[@Suthek]

"What reason would your villain have to run with these goody two-shoes." Well, turns out that my eventual plans to rule the kingdom and dominate its people (not my actual plan, you don't have the clearance to know that) require there to *be* a kingdom and its people at the end of the month. So if that elder god wakes up and eats us all, that's gonna put a bit of a dent into my plans. And, as much as I'd usually stay away from these kind of principled adventurers, they seem to be the best available shot for the problem at hand. Gotta be pragmatic. And that includes not actively antagonizing your fellow party members. A party that distrusts each other isn't gonna solve problems. "What reason would these goody two-shoes have to run with a villain?" Turns out having someone with a...different perspective on things can make many things much easier. And often people tend to be softer on their hard moral lines when they're not the ones that have to do the deed. The heroes got themselves into prison over a misunderstanding with the local authorities, and the Paladin insists on trusting the justice system to sort things out? Well, unfortunately for you I happen to know a bit about the local bureaucracy and by the time your case has been reviewed, it'll be a fortnight. Valuable time I'm sure you all agree we don't have. Fortunately for you I happen to know a bit about the local bureaucracy and which pockets to sink a few gold pieces into to have us released by this afternoon. "Don't burn down orphanages!" Who would even do that? Save the orphanage! Put yourself front and center to save it. Thankful hungry children living at the fringes of society looking up to you are the perfect first step to loyal employees. Help them grow and train them to fend for themselves (and for you); help them band together and they can kick out all those street gangs that bullied and extorted the poor and needy and set up protection for those in need...for a reasonably small price. The kids get some money for food and niceties, the poor disenfranchised have likeminded protectors and you have a loyal street gang spreading their (and your) influence all over town.

[@NecromancyForKids]

This was the excuse I used for an evil character of mine. He wanted to become a crimelord, but there were these chaotic evil forces threatening to destroy everything, and he's not in it for a quick buck and a short life. So he made sure the evil was defeated, then swiped some of the post-game loot and ran to start his bandit stronghold.

[@EmberBright2077]

It reminds me of Kingpin in Web of Shadows when Spidey asks why he's helping against the BBEG. "*Points to his corporate building with 'Fisk' emblazoned on it* whose name do you think the people will remember when this is all over?"

[@megakedar]

Look at Planescape. Every single faction has good and evil members working for what are presumably similar political ends. This isn't a hard thing to fathom. Just look at real life and the types of people that inhabit ANY organization.

[@mal2ksc]

_Well, turns out that my eventual plans to rule the kingdom and dominate its people (not my actual plan, you don't have the clearance to know that) require there to be a kingdom and its people at the end of the month. So if that elder god wakes up and eats us all, that's gonna put a bit of a dent into my plans._ This is why, in my setting, there is the possibility of flipping the Big Bad Evil Wizard to your cause. That wouldn't make her not evil, it just means you've convinced her that what's in your best interests is in her best interests too.

[@Dreigonix]

People are easier to rule if you’re nice to them- it’s 90% of the point of the Evil Overlord List.

[@jeffreymilliman2306]

14:55 - "What reason does the rest of the group have for keeping this character around?" is pretty important. It's the question I asked myself every time my friend wanted to play a kender.

[@pietrayday9915]

YES - The Inevitable Annoying Kender and his cousin the Chaotic Gnome... The Lone Wolf that doesn't talk to, share will, or adventure with the rest of the party... The Lawful Stupid, Stupid Neutral, and Stupid Good Paladins, Druids, Monks, and so on who always seem to make unilateral decisions that run against the rest of the group every time... The Chaotic Evil Thief who spends more time plundering the party's pockets than the dungeon.... And, the "meta" varients, like that One Guy that interrupts everyone to say "you can't do that!" whenever someone comes up with a fun idea that doesn't quite fit inside-the-box, and has a rulebook or some unwritten ancient gaming tradition to fall back on to dictate how other players should role-play an Elf or Paladin or whatever "the Right Way"... the Other Guy who interrupts your turn to tell you what your character needs to do and say to follow the battle-plan he put together without telling you and flips the table if you don't do everything according to his script... and the Railroading GM who puts words in your character's mouth, makes your decisions for you, tells you what your character thinks and feels, and might as well be playing your character for you! And more. That poorly-played Evil Character is maybe the most obvious sore thumb on a whole handful of problems that just come down to players who don't seem to understand the give-and-take of a fun social game, and see "the spotlight" as a zero-sum limited resource that will run out if shared with anyone else..... I think the Evil Character Problem is basically the same problem as these others, but stands out a bit from the rest as "unique" because the license to be a jerk is, from the problem player's perspective, built right into the alignment, and it can be difficult for many of us to put our finger on why something is wrong, even thought the Evil Player seems to be doing it "right"!

[@cameronjames3499]

16:25 [Deadpan] "Tell them the price last". Why do I get the feeling that Seth moonlights as a Crossroads Demon?

[@dbensdrawinvids8390]

Whenever my players ask what alignments are acceptable to play in my game, I say "I don't care, it doesn't matter, but your character HAS to be able to play well with everyone else."

[@CitanulsPumpkin]

It really says something when "Make a functioning member of society." needs to be spelled out on a regular basis.

[@dbensdrawinvids8390]

@@CitanulsPumpkin Whoa now. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. These are player characters after all.

[@Pistonrager]

"Be able to get along", and "have a reason to adventure" are the most important things a character needs, followed shortly by rope.

[@danhedman8515]

@@Pistonrager Nah rope comes first

[@jonpeters8725]

@@CitanulsPumpkin Nah no DnD character functions well in society

[@WoobooRidesAgain]

I think a neat little motivator for an evil character would be a self-serving sense of security. The character's been hurt before, maybe they were even "good" at one point. But some terrible event, or a series of terrible events, made them feel deeply insecure about their place in their world, their safety or so on. Like they need to get this money to keep the world from kicking their life out from under them again. Perhaps they even think to themselves "I just need to get x amount of wealth to do y thing and I will never be evil again, it's just so I don't have to be homeless, vulnerable or impoverished again". Not only is the idea of accruing wealth for that feeling of security a good motivator for wanting money all the time, but I also think it's a great way to make an evil character relatable and even personable. Not sympathetic necessarily--they still would put other people's needs well behind their own if it made them a dime--but certainly more understandable and easier to jump into, as it were.

[@Keyce0013]

So Walter from Breaking Bad? His original motivation behind making and selling drugs was so that his family would be able to live comfortably and afford college after he died of cancer.

[@WoobooRidesAgain]

@@Keyce0013 That's a good example of such a villain and a pretty good one to point to when making one. Another variant would be Scarlet O'Hara from _Gone With The Wind_ . "As God is my witness, I'll never go hungry again" would be such a character's mantra, and that could just as easily apply to characters or even communities outside of their own, the thing that's theirs, as Seth's example goes.

[@Klomster88]

@@WoobooRidesAgain That totally describes my first ever LARP character. He grew up in a religious nut house in extreme poverty, and now managed to get somewhere in life and became one of the bodyguards of his city-states mayor. Ah, it was such a good character. He was a total fanatical patriot of that city, he also hated religion.

[@CatacombD]

Another of my favorite motivations for an Evil player to rescue another player? "Because if I let some pissant like you mess with my coworkers, it makes it look like I'm too weak to stop you. I am *not* weak!"

[@nickwilliams8302]

"There's a difference between me thinking that Sir Brightspark there is a complete penis and me not caring whether or not some goddamn walking octopus sucks his brains out through his nose. Put. The. Paladin. Down."

[@The_Custos]

Yakuza logic.

[@girlbuu9403]

@@nickwilliams8302 One of my evil characters befriended a paladin because the paly saved their life. Blood debts are a good motivator too.

[@DeetotheDubs]

Reminds me of the line, "If anyone is gonna kill them, it's gonna be me!" Saving someone only to be petty to a rival, rather than being nice.

[@thebolas000]

*Slaps the roof* "You can fit so much character development in this baby."

[@lawrencegillies]

Its like when Doc Holliday in the movie Tombstone was asked why he was standing with Wyatt Earp: "Wyatt Earp is my friend" "I got a lot of friends" "I don't"

[@Outrider85]

I'm extremely happy and proud of you for going through this entire video without referencing Raistlin or Dragonlance even once.

[@Lobsterwithinternet]

I know. Even though he's a good example, everyone, and their grandmother has already used him to death. ☠️

[@lexi9956]

He fits pretty well though. He was never in it for "the Evuls" it was simply about he was willing to do whatever it took to achieve his goals, and as long as the party was aligned with those he had no real reason to betray or harm them or anyone else. The second he *did* though it was game on.

[@JKtheSlacker]

My DM: "So, tell me about your character!" Me: "Well... uh... he has heated leather seats?"

[@TriMarkC]

Good? Evil? Nope, just comfortable. Buuuuuut, ....

[@DeusMachina_EXE]

Ah, a cyberpunk campaign. Nice choice.

[@clockworkpotato9892]

@@DeusMachina_EXE Driving around Night City while sleeping on my friends

[@punishedwhispers1218]

One of my group's favorites was an evil warlock that loved watching people die and served the goddess of death, but one of the party members was their grandma and they just couldn't stand to see their grandma be hurt. If an evil character is your friend, they are your best friend, morality and law be damned-you are their world

[@kuroinokitsune]

that game sounds amazing, you had grandma in it

[@girlbuu9403]

I had an evil character that near the end of the campaign killed her best friend and another PC who had been with her through thick and thin. He tried to stop her from achieving her goals. It fucked her up. Was the second time in the entire game anyone saw her cry, and she raised his son while trying to make sure he ended up more like his dad than his surrogate mother.

[@Sorain1]

I've always loved the idea of an all evil party that runs on the nakama tropes. They just happen to be utterly evil, despite being great friends and willing to go through hell and back for each other. Having that tiny circle of trust is so important to them they do morally questionable (to their Evil alignment stance) things to keep it. The moral inverse of the paladin leaving the room for someone to be tortured for information without them having to stop it. You offer them huge wealth to turn on their friends and they won't do it, because that doesn't profit them. You offer them enormous power to turn on their friends and they won't do it, because they know they can rely on the power of their friends to back them up. That kind of truly warped instances of friendship tropes being played entirely, painfully, straight. They work for the BBEG that wants to rule the world, because once the hard work is over, they'll collectively gank the BBEG and take the empire for themselves, knowing they can trust the others to work with them against outsiders. Sure, they'll squabble over loot, but never to the point of self destruction. The only way they'd take divinity is if they and their friends are forming a new pantheon.

[@persephoneunderground845]

@@Sorain1 I know this is old but you *have* to watch Escape from the Bloodkeep. It's 100% what you just described. Power of friendship but it's all (rebranded) LOTR villains. It's also awesome.

[@klaykid117]

Jane from Firefly is a good example of an evil hero (Or Three from Dark Matter). They want to help the group but are willing to go places that the other characters aren't.

[@rdmrdm2659]

I almost put him more CN than explicitly evil.

[@80yates]

I really like your idea of evil characters as having very low empathy. I think this is the gold standard for playing these characters.

[@AlteredNova04]

Nah the way he described it, it's not that evil characters have low empathy, it's that they are very selective about who they show empathy too. They only care about their family and friends and everyone else can go to hell. Basically, evil characters have extremely tribalistic moral values where "outsiders" are not worthy of any consideration.

[@cryofpaine]

@@AlteredNova04 Both can be true. You can have an evil character who is extremely loyal to their group (say someone like Magneto), or you can have an evil character who is simply using & protecting the resources at hand, but wouldn't hesitate to throw them away without a second thought if it benefitted them somehow. Someone who would only rescue their party from prison if they paid, for example. The one with situational empathy tends to be a "from a certain point of view" evil character. The other is more universally recognized as evil (unless they are good at hiding it, or manage to amass a large following of devoted followers who will ignore & excuse that person's every action).

[@gregoryfloriolli9031]

Every time I create a new character, I ask two basic questions: How did the character learn his skills and why is he out adventuring? Answering those questions always helps me create a well rounded character but the second question gives me a reason for why that character is in the party and what he hopes to achieve.

[@Graham-ce2yk]

Your discussion reminded me of a character who's name I cannot remember from one of Ed Greenwoods 'Crown of Fire' D&D novels. when one of his henchmen suggests torture to get information he refuses with the words "I'm evil, not a monster". I think a lot of players forget there is a difference.

[@CitanulsPumpkin]

I came up with my favorite idea/motivation for an evil character while reading through the Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica. There's not too many justifications for playing a fully chaotic evil member of the cult of Rakdos in a party of "heroes." Unless you're a ringmaster in one of the cult's circuses and you're a fiend pact warlock whose main long term goal is to seduce the party's paladin to the dark side and get them to swear a new paladin oath to the demon lord Rakdos. You're always going to "do the right thing" and play along with all the party's heroics. And in your downtime maybe you take the paladin to see a few "saucy puppet shows." You take them to a bunch of off broadway plays and wine and dine one or more of your party members. Before each show starts you get up to go get everyone something from the concession stand, and then you slip back stage and tell your fellow Rakdos cultists running the show just what lines to alter and scenes/effects to play up to win over your party members. Then as time goes on, the shows get bloodier and deadlier until the other party members have no idea when a few satirical puppet shows in a busy market place turned into the stadium sized blood orgies the cult of Rakdos is known for. And the best part of it is it's entirely up to the paladin and the other party members if your big evil scheme works or not. If someone tries to call you out for turning the party evil just say "It's entierly up to Dweebles how he plays his character. I'm just showing everybody a good time."

[@lperkins2]

"How many times do you have to catch a man lying to know he is a liar"? One. This applies to alignment too, a character can be evil (or chaotic), but only act on that when the "chips are down" or when the stakes are high, and it isn't a problem at the table. It can even lead to some fun tension of "is the vault going to contain an artifact of sufficient power for Karth to finally betray us"? (We were careful which missions he went on, for that reason). The best example of this is probably from the sci-fi show _Andromeda_ where a faction of the cartoonishly evil metahumans sided with the normal humans' empire, out of " _enlightened_ self interest". While the whole ethos of those metahumans was self-interest, but one subset of them was smart enough to realize their long-term self interest was tied to the fate of everyone else.

[@CountZeroOr]

11:10 - Gendo Ikari says "Hi". Or rather, he pushes up his glasses, and Fuyutsuki is delegated to saying "Hi".

[@madmanwithaplan1826]

I am currently playing a neutral evil necromancer hobgoblin in one of my campaigns. One of the party members reminds my character of their son which they lost (maybe). So the whole the party is mine deal totally fits his motivations right now. I also ended up saving 8 tabaxi from torture and death because it was quicker than arguing with the elf.

[@andreww830]

This is exactly how I've played both of my evil characters. One was a disturbed necromancer who did some truly awful things and doesn't feel bad about it, but he still abided by his companions wishes and cloaked his evil as being for the "greater good." The other one is an Oath of Conquest paladin, who isn't villainous, but definitely has an inward pointing moral compass. Most of what he does is for him; if it benefits others thats ok but it's not his goal.

[@-Thunder-Warrior-]

I like the idea of a classic "Evil Overlord" after he's been defeated and overthrown by the stereotypical Valiant Hero. Now he's without his Evil Tower of Dread, with its breathtaking views of a nearby Volcano, Dungeons of Darkness and Armies of Malice and forced into adventuring to make ends meet. In a World where Anti Heroes and Edge Lords are becoming more and more popular the classic Dark Lord and muscle bound 80's style Barbarian Hero are becoming less and less popular. You could even have them in the same Party, old rivals who understood "How the game was played" back in their day, now past their prime and sticking together as the closest thing either one has to a friend.

[@DeetotheDubs]

This gave me strong 8-Bit Theater vibes. Some of the defeated enemies team up to track down the "heroes" that beat them. It's a funny concept thinking about an overlord having to count copper coins, stripped of their OP hideout and minions.

[@GreenDM]

I clicked so fast, but I need to go to sleep. I will watch this tomorrow! You always make good videos, so excited to watch it.

[@SimonWolfie]

Here's a reminder to watch it, and to no surprise, it's good!

[@ididathink5295]

Another reminder

[@TheRepublic4]

REMINDER! (lol)

[@gordonmcinnes8328]

My favourite character? A Lawful Evil Sorcerer 'cursed' with saving the world. The other PCs? Each useful in their own way to further the goals he actually wished to pursue (usually being good at killing wizards) and he would put himself out to some degree to save them (they are a valuable comodity to him) a.k.a. a pragmatic evil.

[@Atariese]

I started a group with a bunch of newbies. And like always i said during character creation: "Don't play an evil character!" I quickly ran over the alignment chart but then told the party not to fill in the alignment quite yet and that we can figure that out later. This is a tactic i like to use. But this was one time i was called on it. The rogue was very much a self serving character. He would steal when he found something he liked, he was constantly fast talking to get his way, even made contacts with the criminal underworld. And a few months in we had a deep discussion about alignment, during which i pointed out that i thought the rogue was doing a lot of evil acts. To which he looks at me and formally apologizes for his evil behavior, bringing up that during character creation i was very specific about the players not being evil. So i explained why i said that. "Look, i tricked you. That was a lie. However: you aren't disrupting the party's plans, you aren't murdering every npc you meet, you aren't acting like you own the world. That's what most people think when they try to create 'evil characters.' All i really was trying to do was get you to not be a dick to everyone. Being evil does not make you a bad guy. Its more that you help yourself before you help others."

[@mikej8382]

I once played a drow elf mage in 3e dnd. He ran from drow society. And since he was in the under dark he was able to be pretty twisted. But most everyone in the under dark was evil. He wasn't a serial killer or mass murderer as much as someone you really didn't want to be standing between him and his goal. Was one of my favorite campaigns. And Neutral/Evil doesn't mean Neutral/Stupid. This video was a great explanation of what a great evil character can be.

[@angiemartin197]

Jayne was a perfect example of an evil character. Great video!

[@Hynesight2020]

My first character was a LE Duergar Conquest Paladin (5e). My DM made an exception for me. The character ended up dying at the first BBEG confrontation but he's still talked about fondly by all the members of the group even now. Playing an evil PC well is still a badge of honor that I didn't realize until later.

[@CRESELEG]

One of my favorite characters of all time was evil. He was willing to do anything to overthrow the king that put his father to death(I know cliché). When our campaign ended with my killing the king in front of everyone, they were all shocked, over 3 years no one had realized I was playing an evil character. He respected the party so much he hid his evil actions from them. Of course the king's guard kinda killed the whole party for my actions, but I will be damned if Valax didn't die with a smile on his face!

[@NerdMafiaSV]

I watched this video before I made an evil character a while back, and the "this is mine" mentality made her so much easier to play. She saved the world from destruction, not because she didn't want to see people getting hurt, but because if the world was destroyed, she'd have nothing to rule over.

[@SSkorkowsky]

Some people in the comments have tried arguing against that, but I've found it a useful approach and very easy to convey in a TTRPG. Glad to see it helped. Reminds me of an old episode of The Tick, "You can't eat the Earth! That's where I keep all my stuff. I must stop you"

[@sunzi42]

Your shirt is character creation in "traveller".

[@Kittykattarina]

I love playing lawful evil. they dont cause disruption with any murder or nonsense BUT they will go along with any plan the group comes up with.

[@Kittykattarina]

Fun story. i asked to play an evil pc once and was told no. i went ahead and played my evil pc as i had planned and no one ever knew. if fact i had to pull bad some of the other "good" pc for being too murdery and almost getting us in trouble.

[@verticalflats2816]

There is also the good character that slipped into evil being caught between what is good inside and what has to be done.

[@itzybitzyspyder]

This is the crux of the character arc of chef Cordon Hamsay, gnome wizard/hex bladelock.

[@RainMakeR_Workshop]

I think Ainz Ooal Gown is a good template for successfully playing an Evil character. Look at the way he dealt with Lady Clementine. He didn't really care that she killed those adventurers. But he DID care that he was deprived of a useful asset. Or when Eight Fingers captured Tsuare. He didn't care about her, but he DID care that someone under his protection was taken. That is something he would NOT stand. Just imagine the hell that will befall someone if they actually took one of the floor guardians? Someone he ACTUALLY cares about.

[@Wolfsspinne]

Best example of an evil character: Jack Sparrow from Pirates of the Caribbean, the author always finds an excuse why him serving the party in truth only serves himself. Playing an evil character you maybe want to be like that author: let your character do the right thing, then show everyone how it got you closer to your own goals.

[@Aartisme]

Idk about that. Jack seems more chaotic good or chaotic neutral. Evil seems like a stretch.

[@TotemStorms]

@@Aartisme Just remember: Jack agrees to sell Davey Jones 100 souls in place of his own, for a deal that he made and then tries to back out of when it comes time to pay up, without even batting an eyelid, and the first of those is Will Turner. When they go to rescue him from Davey Jones' locker and he gets offended that no one has come to rescue him for his own sake, someone should honestly have asked what that sake was; I can't work out what he would have done aside from bluster at that moment.

[@Wolfsspinne]

@@Aartisme I would argue that all pirates in Pirates of the Caribbean are Lawful-something. It's the Codex aboth everything else. If the Codex states "jump" they only wonder "how high". And half the story plots circle around interpreting statements to give them slightly different meaning and to find loopholes.

[@HenshinFanatic]

@@Wolfsspinne , nah mate, the titular pirates are certainly not lawful, neutral at best in respect to order and chaos, and definitely cleave closely to the southern side of the alignment matrix. Now if we were talking about the pirates of Penzance however almost certainly LN, N, LE, and NE would be common among that crew. Frederik is the trope codifier for lawful stupid after all.

[@theredestmage6068]

@@HenshinFanatic but didn’t all the pirates in ptoc follow the pirate code which would make them lawful?

[@VIP-Agr]

Well stated. I've run a few evil characters and they each fit into the party well because they were what I like to call "affable-evil". They were friendly, charismatic, and happy to help people, as long as they aren't in the way. They valued the party *exactly* as you prescribed. They considered the party to be some combination of invaluable or endearing. These were characters who would turn on the party at the end of the trail should the perfect opportunity present itself, but not for anything except the total completion of their primary end goal. One of my characters was a Yuan-Ti snake cultist who wanted to usher in the end of days by awakening Dendar the Night Serpent. The goal was to end the world, and he would proselytize to the party openly. He would have sacrificed the party if it was the key to his victory, but he genuinely liked them and would regret the loss. The party kept him around because he was friendly, helped those in need, and he was great for negotiating with Hags, Vampires, and other obviously evil entities. He wasn't worried about dying to protect the party because he had absolute faith that he would succeed, and that the party would be there to see it happen.

[@bobjohnson5341]

I feel like the show Blacklist does a good job of having an Evil Character with other good PCs. I mean you have a criminal who is using the other's to expand his empire, but is still protective of the party. Then you have Dembe, who is straight up Lawful Good, but is trying to save the soul of Raymond.

[@nolgroth]

Dembe being one of the most awesome characters ever portrayed on television.

[@logancole5101]

I actually plan on possibly playing a neutral evil necromancer noble who is after the people who kidnapped his daughter. He would work with heroes because you can't trust other evil people to help search for a little girl. Though of course he doesn't make it too obvious. This video is definitely going to be helpful.

[@mrperfectjeff]

The most loved character I have made was a lawful to neutral evil tiephling. He was clearly an evil character out of the public eye, that may have had a thing for arson. He is/was a warlock in the service of a devil that was the pact holder of the warlock that saved his life from a sinking ship about a month or so from any land, and his deal was he had to mark 10,000 souls with his magic to bind their souls to the devil holding his pact. Friendly or otherwise alike, he just never told the party that his magic damned them for eternally.

[@artaweunderhill4480]

"...telling them the p r i c e last.." ~(16:25) - that Seth was evil and it made me laugh... you sold me into having evil charakters in the group.. it can evolve into some cinematic roleplay moments.

[@magonus195]

You're so underrated, Seth.

[@Tony-dh7mz]

Who's doin the rating?

[@magonus195]

@@Tony-dh7mz viewers and subscribers, by the numbers. Matthew Colville, Matthew Mercer, Taking20, etc.

[@Tony-dh7mz]

@@magonus195 See, this is why I have no peers...

[@magonus195]

@@Tony-dh7mz No peers? What do you mean? Everyone has peers.

[@darkreaver01]

One of my main rules for any character (good or evil) is that I dont care how you play your character as long as you dont disrupt the group and have a personal (character) stake in the group's success.

[@TheCrowFairyTale]

I absolutely LOVED the Mr. Freeze reference! Thank you for that

[@banjolasse6169]

Spot on, Seth! I always replace the word "evil" with "selfish" in my head, because that transforms it from a nebulous concept into something real. My characters are always on the spectrum of evil, because I find it leaves me with much more interesting choices to make, as well as some free strife in the party (which is good). My characters have bought slaves and sold false plague cures, but that doesn't mean they can't feel shame, or love, or change their minds. I feel like when I play on the spectrum of evil I actually have to try to do some mental gymnastics and actually think about what my player would do all the time, whereas with a "good" character you can just sort of go with the flow because most quests are about helping people. Also, the part about the party being "yours" is a fantastic tool for any evil character. It binds you to them. But you also need to make concessions and follow the party as they agree to help the party find some farmer's lost pig or whatever the module calls for. Just make your character roll her eyes and complain all the way. Sitting a quest out because you're "evil" is a failure by you as a player.

[@beardlessdragon]

This makes me wanna collectively decide as a party that someone is the "leader" and the rest of us are their minions that do their bidding. I'd be so down for playing a lil minion servant

[@oliviawilliams6204]

Reminds me of my character Talvrae, she's a Drow bard, neutral evil, and an escape slave. She stick to her party because she know she would not be accepted by the surfacer and they act as her shield. What she value is her freedom. She do what she have to do to remain free.

[@WraithMagus]

The problem is that people have a really reductive view of alignment as personality traits (because only 9 personalities exist). The way that evil characters get a bad rap is for the same reason that thieves/rogues get bad raps for stealing from the party or chaotic alignment is an excuse to take actively self-destructive actions any time they want to be a role-play terrorist. Almost any time you hear about how an "evil" PC is a problem, it's always going to have a player who betrays the party "because they're evil". If you take the idea that almost any organization, no matter how noble (even if it's a religious institution with literal angels that can explicitly see the darkness in mortal souls), is going to have some people who don't fully live up to the creed of their organization. Sometimes, good organizations use bad people to achieve their goals, and those bad people will feel like part of the team. (A sadistic cop who enjoys brutalizing suspects still feels strongly about the fraternal bond of police officers, and the Blue Wall means even good cops protect their bad apples.) It's always been kind of stupid and unrealistic that D&D features gods of torture and murder that evil people pray to in return for being tortured for all eternity when even evil characters who can pay at least enough lip service to at least a neutral, if not good deity can enjoy a pleasant - if not euphoric - afterlife can escape that fate. In a game where you can *literally visit the afterlife while alive,* it makes no sense to have any but the most absurdly self-destructive characters pray to devil princes. You can just plain be a bastard who knows how to do JUUUUUST enough good to keep one toe in the Pearly Gates. Likewise, in real life, even people who are definitely horrific in their willingness to do violence, like a member Mafia, has their own code of ethics, and they will fight for those who are part of their friends or family, even if they have zero empathy for the many, many other people they hurt. You can also play "evil" as "damaged". They're willing to work with the party, but they're like Joe Pesci in Goodfellas - always one wrong word away from exploding on even their allies. Or else, they're fine to their allies, but highly vengeful or sadistic towards enemies. (This is often the case with "neutral" or "good" PCs, whose players tend towards extreme vengeful behaviors, where the DM has to step in and say the PCs aren't actually "good" - cue the drama.) Amusingly, in the game I'm currently playing, one of the players went with an evil character at first, a brutal, arrogant lay-noble who wanted to become a high noble no matter the cost... but one of my characters was basically a cartoonishly good celestial (lyrakien azata) who defeats enemies with THE POWER OF LOVE! In spite of being 324 years old, she permanently has the mind of a 7-year-old whose view of the world was informed by magical girl shows. Also, she was a good witch where I interpreted "cackle" as "cheer" (because I only use Protective Luck and then Fortune when I leveled up enough all day every day), which I perform by making rhyming couplets. The other player, for some reason, did not feel he could play a gritty realistic mercenary opposite her. ("Once more, I prove that evil is no match for the power of HUGS!")

[@The_Custos]

Nice, each 9 alignment could easily be broken down into major or minor just as a start, as neutral already is (neutral normal and commonplace, or true neutral).

[@SASKIYEAAAAAH]

I'm playing a lawful evil police officer in a Vampire: The Masquerade campaign currently for that very reason! This is very eloquently put

[@The_Custos]

@@SASKIYEAAAAAH hopefully not TOO much police brutality. 😂

[@SASKIYEAAAAAH]

@@The_Custos luckily he's far too incompetent

[@elaxter]

One of the first games I GM'd had an evil character. He was the most memorable part of that campaign. He was a Corpse Eater, a race in the game I was playing (GURPS Dungeon Fantasy) and ended up running a "jerky" stand for extra money between adventures.

[@weswyleven9540]

"you're on my crew." I see what you did there, Seth.

[@AnEnemySpy456]

The game I'm in right now has us all playing characters who are either straight up evil or at least totally self interested. Everyone of our characters would gladly sell out the others with no remorse and we're all having a great time playing this group.

[@hammond1994]

Oh! Thank God! A sane person is posting.

[@youcantbeatk7006]

What have you gone through?

[@Tony-dh7mz]

WHERE!! WHERE!! This is teh interwebs, are U catfishing Hammy?

[@erc1971erc1971]

Excellent video, this did a great job of explaining how I felt but was unable to put into words. This also reminded me of the last player character I had, she was a necromancer who just wanted to be left alone to pursue her interests with the undead, and ended up becoming a big damned hero because the only way she could be left in peace was to help defeat the big evil villain .

[@TARMHeLL]

Now I have to watch Firefly again, and when is the the co-lab with Professor Dungeon Master coming...

[@davidm3190]

I was thinking of Jayne Cobb right from the beginning of this video. I can think of a few other lovable villains: Bron from Game of Thrones, Doctor Smith from Lost in Space and Titus Pulo from Rome. I usually model my characters along these lines. Evil but with motivation and a sense of loyalty

[@dubuyajay9964]

Doctor Doom? He loves his people, his country, and his mom...but he still wants to rule the world. For the greater "good" of course.

[@blameitonthebubble5294]

The spiciness of this topic is off the charts.

[@Lobsterwithinternet]

🔥🌶🍛

[@lunatic0verlord10]

A nice example of an evil character in a team of heroes: Belkar the Sexy Shoeless God of War

[@z.adkins862]

Aaaw, Evil Jack's a tsundere

[@RemedialHappyMan]

One thing I think you didn't mention that I've learned from playing an evil PC for about a year now is that evil PC's can take an emotional toll on the game that can be exhausting and you need to balance that. For example knowing that the evil PC is lying to people that care about them, or that they're actively manipulating people, or that they view a good thing that happened to them through selfish and destructive means. Even if an evil PC views the party as THEIRS and wants to protect them is that relationship a healthy one? If your playing an evil bard who loves attention and fame are they going to respond well when the shy fighter starts sticking up for themselves or are they going to try and beat them down emotionally to maintain their sense of self or the power dynamic in the group. All of these things can be extremely interesting for roleplay and character growth but they can also be just a drain on the tone and the drive of the campaign if you're not careful. I think more than any other type of character an evil PC requires a good player because whether or not what you're doing in character is seen as a personal attack or you being a dick, or whether it's going to be seen as good roleplaying that's fun is largely dependent on how the player themselves is received at the table. I've also found personally that the things that are most problematic for evil PC's aren't actually things that are like the "shocking" evil acts. Stuff like murder and betrayal are usually received well and with excitement. When you delve deep into evil though its the little interactions that cause the most difficulty at the table. Over the year of playing my evil PC has spent 99% of their time and effort helping out the good PC's, doing good acts in the city, and conducting themselves in a way that as my DM put it is "above reproach" because he needs to in order to survive. He realizes that he's a social parasite and he has to be extremely careful about that. However in terms of dealing with NPC's he's done things that are extremely manipulative and abusive that I wouldn't just spring on a party. He's a glamour bard that wants to be the center of attention and to have the power of fame in the city he's in and he's willing to do anything to get it. It just so happens that when you want adoring fans and women and everything else like that under your control one of the best ways to do that is by nurturing dependence and then convincing them to cut off their other social ties and support under the guise of trying to help. The best way to control people that want to stop you is by observing and then attacking the parts of themselves that will actually hurt but doing it in a way that doesn't create an immediate and dangerous reaction. That sort of social maneuvering and warfare is taxing and something you really need to be careful of. It's because that's the type of human evil you're much more personally likely to face in the world. A murderer or dramatic betrayal still feels like a story, but the other sort of evil is a reflection of just normal human traits that exist.

[@burnttoast26]

Rule number 1 about this kind of thing: never work against the party just "because it's what my character would do, they're evil/chaotic neutral". If you ever do work against the party on something, you make absolutely certain that it's a damn good reason. You can be evil/CN without being a disruptive ass.

[@aspetty]

A friend of mine told me about to they had a player who was a good player the whole but every time he made a carbon copy paladin. Same God same alignment and border line same stats and skills. He refused to diversify even when the group could really use a different type of character. The game Master went to my friend and said, I need you to play a chaotic evil vampire. Yeah don't have the time but it was a very interesting year in roleplaying for them.

[@Fait231]

"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun"

[@terrybeal2252]

Excellent Army of Darkness reference. 😎😁😂

[@cernunnos4151]

I love that Seth looks at evil characters the same way I do. My favorite example of "Evil characters" in RPGs is the Scorpion Clan in Legend of the 5 Rings. They are bound to protecting the empire, and not bound to the view of honor like the other clans are. This duty above honor approach allows them to do the despicable deeds in the dark that the other clans refuse to even think of doing. All in the name of the empire, to which they are sworn to protect.

[@mynewskull8171]

I've been playing an Evil character in the D'n'D game. A lot of what comes up in this video is how I've been playing them on instinct.

[@georgeromo3506]

Thanks this really puts things into perspective.

[@ElijahAtchley]

chaotic characters are waaaayyyyy more problematic than an evil characters. I like having evil characters in my campaign.

[@mauricewalshe8339]

Chaotic doesn't mean do random silly shit - which is where people make mistakes.

[@Keyce0013]

Chaotic just means they oppose or disregard the authority of the major power they live under. Captain Malcolm Reynolds (again from Firefly) might have had his own code of conduct, but he never liked to work with the Alliance, who were the major political power in that setting. He's a guy who believes that people are best left to their own devices and that they don't need a government to regulate what they can or cannot do.

[@mauricewalshe8339]

@@Keyce0013 exactly "there is a higher law" as Seward famously said

[@zacharyhawley1693]

Some of the most fun I've had was with NE characters. You just need to have a session with the DM. NE is the party is your private assets, there's no reason to ever betray the party because for the most part. Your goals align and as such all your sadism is focused on everyone who dares oppose your party. That said, problem players almost always have the alignment of The Thing I was Going To Do Anyway. And the most disruption were dubiously..Good

[@talkan999]

My group and I have always called it "classy evil" vs "cliche evil". Classy evil is the type of evil that makes you say "Hell yeah! I'm in!" regardless of what two little letters sit on the alignment chart. Cliche evil is what horror stories are spawned from.

[@michaelcottle6270]

Great article, lots to think about. Big +1 for Jayne. When you were leading up to naming him I was going, it should be Jayne. Mind you, YoSaffBridge is another great example, especially in "Trash"

[@dminard1]

I view evil as not doing things for altruistic reasons and being mostly self serving. They dont have to murder and steal all the time. Your average mercenary is neutral evil.

[@Bluecho4]

Depends on what exactly the mercenary does. Historically, the Italian peninsula during the years of the Papal States were rife with mercenaries working for various Italian nations in conflict with one another. But in practice, they did very little fighting, because it wasn't in their interests to actually engage in combat. They didn't want to die, after all. So much of their "wars" were shows of force and playing chicken with each other. Acting almost as political instruments their employers used to intimidate their rival nations into capitulation. All while the mercenaries could extract payment at regular intervals to do basically nothing. (Indeed, what made the eventual invasion of the region by the Holy Roman Empire such a game changer was that the HRE was willing to shed actual blood on the battlefield). In this case, you'd have a whole lot of mercenaries that wouldn't need to be _that_ evil to do their jobs. Not to mention mercenaries hired in largely defensive capacities. Like to defend borders, trade routes, or the grounds of important locations. The latter would, in modern parlance, be called "private security". They're there to discourage fighting, rather than engage in it.

[@kuroinokitsune]

@Great White well, to enjoy someone's pain you need to be able feel and recognize it, sooo...

[@davidgantenbein9362]

@Great White Psychopaths are a minority in jails, they don’t really define all of evil. It’s also dangerous to label all psychopaths as evil as such an assessment is basically unproven. A lack of empathy doesn’t automatically constitute a joy in pain of others. Bottom line: there are a myriad of ways for totally normal people to be evil, the Hollywood psychopath is by far not the only way (and imo overused/cliched).

[@rdmrdm2659]

I’d say a proper mercenary is more neutral or lawful neutral, depending.

[@girlbuu9403]

The difference between a chaotic neutral bandit and a chaotic evil bandit is the CN bandit threatens you with violence in hope that you give them things without them needing to hurt anyone. The CE bandit doesn't give a shit and will only do that if they don't think they can leave the fight unscathed.

[@gogroxandurrac]

1:00 the "that's what my character would do" is solved by a DM actually thinking about character traits of the PCs before saying it's okay to be that character. It's why having an evil character in a party of LG paladins shouldn't happen. Because that character wouldn't work. If you're a good DM you can give your PC a reason why the evil character would work with people they hate or vice versa, but it's a lot easier to make sure your party makes sense instead of saying "well everyone should be a good sport and disregard what their character should do based on everything we know about them because it's not good for the game"

[@Tonoborus]

The Hero of Canton, the man they call Jayne!!!

[@Tony-dh7mz]

"Lets be bad guys" How did that work out for you Jayne? Mal almost vented him to space....

[@CarlosJoachim]

From a firefly fanboy, I completely agree with your Jayne analysis!!

[@willieearles3151]

Same.

[@OptimusOmega6]

It bothers me whenever players or GMs speak out against evil characters. Evil characters can be extremely compelling when played well. Some of my favourite character that I or players in my group have played fall under the evil allignment umbrella. I could further ellaborate my philosophy but I then I'd basically be repeating the talking points of Seth's video.

[@Lobsterwithinternet]

I think most of the issues stem from players playing their evil characters as cartoonishly evil dicks than actual characters.

[@OptimusOmega6]

@@Lobsterwithinternet Oh, I entirely get that. It's not as though I haven't had my own personal experiences with bad players who use the evil alignments as excuses to be absolute asshats to their fellow players. I just hate to see that the negative impact such players have is so great that it turns people away from potentially great roleplay opportunities. It makes me realize how fortunate I am to have been able to avoid (for the most part) such toxic players, especially when I was first getting into the hobby.

[@Kilo6Charlie]

I am actually running a game where I encouraged my players to play Evil characters. I am doing a whole corruption arc thing and the goal of the players is to resist it long enough to find a way to escape the realm they got trapped inside. It's a Legend of Zelda game and they are sorta trapped in the Dark World by Ganon. My players are having fun so far, but they have no idea

[@lostknight1895]

Thing about alignment is it is literally just moral philosophy, and carries all the complexity of that, then trying to force it into a simple, codified system. I actually don't mind the alignment system but I definitely have a different interpretation then seth. I always saw it as Good=you are more likely to give into your impulses of kindness and charity. You care allot about those close to you and even strangers. Neutral=self serving and wether your actions outcomes are good or bad for others is not much thought about, whith in reason. You care a good deal about the people close to you, but you dont really care much about strangers. You dont hate strangers you are just indifferent. Evil= you give into your darker impulses and care nothing for others or actively want more suffering. You can have a clique that you like a lot, but you are indifferent to almost everyone else and see them at most as tools or obstacles. You really don't consider people as moral objects, and having a human killed is as easy as getting your dry cleaning done. Law= You value a system of laws or codes, wherever they may come from. You may be more receptive to following rules but always follow your main code first. (Religious law, honor code, criminals code, etc) Neutral=You dont care about following the law or trying to create chaos, you do what you have to to survive and further you own goals, within reason. Chaotic= you don't see much value in codes and laws and chaffe against them when you are restricted by them. You often try to avoid areas where power of law is strong and seek out or create lawlessness. I thinks the alignment system is deeply strange but interesting, and a more loose system of values and beliefs is more realistic, but it is interesting to see other perspectives.

[@themanofconstantsorrowelia1929]

To me alignment is purely motivation for certain situations. I've been playing a lawful good recently but he will do some things other consider evil. Its what my character believed what the lawful choice was

[@mikemccoy5092]

Well done you have a interesting way of explaining things and yes I could see the firefly cast as a party of space adventure

[@toko099o]

Don't even need to watch the video, here's how: Rub hands together. Make with the evil laugh.

[@CitanulsPumpkin]

After watching this video again I'm stuck on mapping the main characters from Firefly to D&D 5e classes. So far... Mal- Battlemaster fighter Zoey- Battlemaster fighter Jayne- champion fighter Innara- Eloquence bard River-gestalt kensei monk/ psi warrior fighter Kaylee, Simon, Wash, and Shepherd Book are all sidekicks with levels in expert and varying backgrounds.

[@Dabeef64]

You sir, have made a very valid point. I would also add that "Evil" is a state of mind as well as a perception of others. So now let me rile up some "hate" from fan boys & girls from the GOT series. People were upset when Daenerys burned King's landing to the ground , stating it was not in her nature and it was a change in her character arc etc. I say she is and always was..EVIL. Firstly, if you look at her family history, it is in their nature, but more importantly look at what she did. She had her "enemies" burned alive , she took an army to a foreign land to conquer it in some deluded idea that the people of the West needed to be freed. Daenerys was also charismatic enough to pick up non evil allies along the way since she presented a credible claim to the throne and she gave our short sighted "good" heroes a reason usurp the throne, which I believe was more about vengeance for both Tyrion & Jon . It also explains why Varys was killed, he realized her evil but by then, it was too late. Some great source material to read for other ideas of how to play evil would be the Elric series or some of the Gor books . I think it can even be argued, Conan had a bent for evil, but anyhow, I have rambled on long enough. Love your videos Seth, keep up the good work.

[@Lobsterwithinternet]

That's a great example! Never really thought about it like that.

[@The_Custos]

Agreed.

[@a.spirit8408]

Oh sheeeet, I was also thinking of Jayne Cobb earlier in the video. Literally the line "money was too good" crossed my mind when you talked about a character that will do anything for the party ... but only for the people they consider their party.

[@TheOtakuKat]

(About to go to bed.) (Seth uploads new videos) "I didn't need sleep anyway"

[@nordicmaelstrom4714]

I am reminded of one of the best hero characters that was actually evil in Raistlin. He was definitely one of the most memorable characters especially of Dragonlance.

[@blackhammer5035]

Whether Jayne really "betrays" his own crew is somewhat debatable, considering he's been the victim of in-party violence (for no really good reason) at that point. While the action still fits the Evil Agenda, there is an element of Looking Out For #1 aside from just "money was too good." Sadly, Firefly's writing has a tendency towards Mary Sues, so his being stabbed as a legitimate motive gets ignored by the plot.

[@theteacher7136]

What came first the chicken or the egg. Did River have a sense of what was going to happen or the intentions of Jayne? This being said by someone who loves Jayne’s character.

[@girlbuu9403]

I have a much bigger problem with Vader saving Luke being called a good action motivated by evil. It is fine to say Vader is still evil, and that he considered Luke 'his', but the story deliberately states there was still some good in him. He was an evil person doing a good thing for good reasons.

[@Brandon_Watson]

It's funny you posted this, a couple weeks ago I started a new campaign with a player that is relatively new to TTRPGs and he made an evil rogue. Generally, I say no evil characters but he was unaware of this. Instead, I opted to have a private conversation with him to ask about what his character motivations were and discovered that he put evil so he could steal from townsfolk. This Grey area is a large reason why I put little stock in a starting alignment. Lets see how you actually play that character before we worry about if they are are good or evil