How to Play Violin Without a Shoulder Rest (and why you should care)

[@DrLili-DrawnByTheDevil]

Firs off, I want to mention that I am a purist, and I basically agree with you. Playing without a shoulder rest isnt an issue and is actually easier for some people. But I also want to say that the only reason it's so easy for you is because you have those giant hunky bull muscles on the back of your shoulders connecting to your neck... that's certainly acting like a shoulder rest.... most of us basic Bs dont have that much muscle definition 😭😭😭

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

I don't know what to say to this comment, other than this is the best comment I have received to date 😆 You definitely have a point. While I do lift, the size and shape of my traps is largely genetic. I don't work those muscles specifically. While the principles of playing remain the same, everyone will have to have the violin fitted to them in some way. For example, I still like to use a cloth under my shirt to fill out some space, while my assistant has almost no neck and a very round head, so he really needs nothing to be 100% comfortable. The type of chinrest can make a big difference as well. I guess the main point of the video is that, even if you choose to use a shoulder rest, understanding the principles of how to play without one will help you achieve a better technique.

[@timkovatch8251]

Nah, His muscles have nothing to do with it.

[@pauljack7170]

i think he does not have the latin shoulders but half nordic , sort of almost horizontal collar bones , i have muscles and a small cushion of lipome right on the left shoulder , but is hard to keep violine in plce becaus my shoulds are sloping down

[@dr.a.w]

@@MurphyMusicAcademy I recall reading somewhere that Hilary Hahn did 50 chin ups every day. Being in good physical shape can't hurt your playing.

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

@@dr.a.w I’ve never heard that about Hilary Hahn, though Arnold did say to do 50 pull-ups every day to get a wide back so I’m sure there is something going on there

[@enpsyclopedia5040]

This changed my life! Ive been playing with shoulder rest for 19 years and thought upper body pain was just a price to pay when playing. After trying this, this is the first time in my life where I have practiced for more than an hour without upper back, left shoulder and neck pain. You are the bossman my guy! Cheers from UK!

[@randkperkins]

My experience exactly. As soon as I ditched the shoulder rest my right shoulder and neck pain went away.

[@nickcarroll8565]

Good lord, I’ve never had pain from a shoulder rest. Now I did have to learn to relax my bow arm so my rhomboids wouldn’t hurt.

[@michaelwhitley2081]

64 year old raw beginner. I was told I absolutely must use a shoulder rest. I’ve tried two different designs in as many positions as I can think of. The question has always been “how come so many great players don’t use a shoulder rest or even their chins to hold the violin?” Now I know. Thank you. The shoulder rest gets consigned to the junk box and now I understand that holding the instrument won’t feel natural at first and that’s okay. Probably the most pivotal lesson so far! 👍🙏

[@thomassicard3733]

I am in your corner, Michael. I am a 61 year old raw beginner on viola. I have my whole life experience as an instrumental musician, viola is just my most recent challenge (perhaps my last?) I am going to learn WITHOUT a shoulder rest. It just seems more comfortable and natural. I didn't win my audition to play French horn with the Houston Symphony at age 22 by being a dumbass. I'm still not a dumbass. Neither are you!!!

[@ACFiftyFive]

Oof TwoSetViolin got roasted for once

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

haha, I guess so. They are awesome, though

[@melasonos6132]

Yeah they are hilarious, love em, but glad I found a teacher who specializes in this, although, I still think its devil magic holding up the violin with your tbumb in the side while doing vibrato, like Menuhin.

[@johankaruyan5536]

@@melasonos6132 gimme a video

[@melasonos6132]

@@johankaruyan5536 Video of what? Menuhin?

[@johankaruyan5536]

@@melasonos6132 yes

[@jeieldavid6347]

I was having anxiety almost seeing 90 percent of the violinists on youtube having shoulder rests, i was desperately looking for a video on vibrato without shoulder rests and i found nothing. Thank you so much for this video, adds a little comfort and motivation to continue practicing the violin lol

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

I'm so glad you liked it! I'll do a vibrato video here, pretty soon, I think. I didn't find vibrato to be much of and issue when I switched from shoulder rest to no shoulder rest, but hopefully a video on vibrato generally might help. Thanks for watching and keep up your practicing!

[@jeieldavid6347]

@@MurphyMusicAcademy Thank you so so much for putting up videos on the internet and sharing your knowledge to those out there who are having the same anxieties and issues with the violin as I do. I am glad to hear that you're gonna upload a vid on the vibrato soon and as I've subscribed, I'll be looking forward to that video (^_^) this video has really helped me a lot and made me practice the violin for 3 days straight and i hope to keep that up. Man this channel needs more views though

[@jenniferrosener4668]

I’ve been playing violin for about 20 months. I could NOT play with a shoulder rest, the tension was unbelievable. I thought I had a long neck but maybe it is my high shoulders? So, from the beginning I have been playing without a shoulder rest. I can say the challenge has been all about releasing tension in my left hand. Sometimes I am better than others and sometimes I am learning new notes and have to re-work the tension out. Thank you thank you for this video! I’ve been experimenting and challenging this on my own, it’s so great to hear a professional discuss this.

[@Tres.hurricane]

So true, I’ve been playing for 2 years and changed my violin teacher because he doesn’t teach anymore. I think playing without the shoulder rest is better, my new teacher is telling me to buy one (it’s not comfortable at all) and I feel like I’m playing it even worse right now. Super frustrated. oh and also my old violin teacher said that the shoulder rest would ruin your violin

[@chrisniebel]

Thank you so much! I just started 8 months ago and have struggled with shoulder rests, chin rests and neck strain. After watching this video, I played without it and OMG! I can really “feel” the violin and turns out all of my issues were due to strain/tensions. So no shoulder rest for me ever again! Thank you again for opening a new world of playing, my teachers never even thought of removing the rest, They just kept telling me I needed to relax. It was the position not being right. Very excited to really starting to play this instrument FINALLY!

[@Paganini1]

Heifetz didn’t use a shoulder rest but he used a shoulder pad underneath his suit. In fact, most 20th century violinists who don’t use shoulder rests still used some sort of support, besides Perlman, Ricci, and Gitlis.

[@ramilubani1752]

Kogan had the same .

[@danielallan3333]

I began using a shoulder rest as young adult because of pain in my neck. I tried them all-Kun, Playonaire, Mach I-the pain got worse. Then I remembered what Milstein told me when I was 16 or so (He was very accessible after concerts) "You hold the viol;in with the left hand." No violinist was more egonomonically correct than he was, which is prbably why he was able to play so well for so long. I stopped using the shoulder rest. Pain went away. Intonation, tone, facility improved. I would take it a step further: I think it is a good idea-as an experiment-to try playing without a chin rest, just so the student can feel what it's like not to clamp the violin with the chin.

[@asyamusina4990]

I began to play without a shoulder rest about 5 years ago. And it's cured all my technical problems.

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

I can’t claim anything has ever cured all of my technical problems, but when I teach certain things to my students who use shoulder rests I find having them practice sometimes without one helps awaken their left hand and become more physically aware.

[@nickcarroll8565]

A shoulder rest helps me play sul g without pain. Are their other ways to do it? Probably. Do I really care to find out? Not particularly. If shoulder rests didn’t exist, I’d either adjust my posture or my repertoire.

[@visuelliot]

I'm still a violin beginner since I haven't played it for that long, but one of my first problems was tension, just like so many other beginners. I thought it had to do with my long neck and thin body, struggled for a whole day trying different positions for my shoulder rest, but nothing really worked and I ended up with a fully raised shoulder rest as and clamping my chin to the violin, a very awkward position that of course resulted in more pain. But as I'm a trained guitarist and is used to support the instrument with my hand, I finally tried with no shoulder rest and to my surprise, everything immediately got easier! More flexibility, the violin is lighter to hold, and it's closer to my body resulting in better contact between the instrument/player. I still have a lot of training to do getting used to all the ergonomics, so this video and your instructions were really helpful! Thank you so much!

[@thomassicard3733]

GO FOR IT!!! I am learning viola without shoulder rest. They don't work for me. I have had major symphony success on piano and French horn. Just saying, because you're right. Shoulder rests don't work at all for some of us. Probably better for almost ALL to NOT use one.

[@bonnieyaeger8875]

I'm thrilled to have discovered this video! I played the violin from the time I was in the 2nd grade until I left for college. My parents purchased a fine violin for me directly from Toscha Seidel. (People as old as I am and true students of the students of Leopold Auer will recognize him). For over 60 years, my violin sat a shelf reminding me that I wished I would get back to it. When I finally did it, I was immediately reminded that you can't just pick it up and play. Some of the issues are caused by all the changes which seem to have occurred in recommended style of play. A big one was the question of shoulder rests. During my years of playing, the most common "shoulder rest" was just a cloth. Now, I've been told that shoulder rests are de rigueur. I was surprised to hear of this change over the years. Mr. Murphy, as an aside, mentioned that shoulder rests have only been in fashion for about the last 50 years, so after I stopped playing. The moral of this story is that I don't have to try to adapt to using a shoulder rest; they just seem like uncomfortable and clumsy to my untrained shoulder.

[@deltafour1212]

This SOB is a GODSEND!!!!! The most underrated violin channel on KZbin. Why there isn't a gazillion views & subscribers is beyond me. SUBSCRIBED!!!!!!!!!!

[@DanielECulbertson]

I had been trying to teach myself to play the violin but I got discouraged and gave up because I could NEVER get a chin rest/shoulder rest combo that didn't feel awkward as hell. (I was a voice major in college and I also play the flute, but stringed instruments confound me.) This has inspired me to give it a go again, forgoing the shoulder rest altogether, especially since the kind of music I would like to play is Celtic fiddle tunes, which would not have been played with a shoulder rest initially anyway! Thanks for inspiring me to give it another try!

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

Dude, playing fiddle without a shoulder rest is the best! I'm trying to learn to fiddling right now (by this I mean I hang out with some old Irish guys at a local pub every Sunday). I can play all the notes, but the style is so foreign to me. But I do enjoy just being able to let the violin sit on my shoulder, sometimes with no chin on it at all, and just play. One thing you will notice about good fiddlers, is they are very loose when they play! Thanks so much for letting me know that this inspired you! Take the slow and steady road, and just stay vigilant. With patience and determination you will reach your goal!

[@nanookofthemex]

Thank you both!! I was super sad because of the same reason, and read you both really gave me hope 😁😁

[@rolandropnack4370]

Hi fellow fiddler, Let me give you some advice from no violinist, but a veteran hedge fiddler, as I like to call it. You must know one thing about playing celtic tunes. They are ment to being danced to - and all of us traditional dance musicians have one purpose only: we give the dancers the pace and rythm. Let your bow drum the beat of the dance, like the tuba at the polka dance! OUM-pa, OUM-pa, OUM-pa... Your bow hand needs to emphasize the strong beats, giving the bow an extra yank. If you are doing it properly, your bow hand will no longer move in a straight line, but in a figureC- and finally figure 8-shape. Do this, and you will stop playing notes - your fiddle will be breathing with the melody and you will sing the tune together! In the long term you will probably ruin your abilities to chime in with the strings of the classic ensemble in subtile expression change. Your fiddle will no longer sing arias, but it will laugh, cry, shout in excitement and shiver in extasy, it will have a heartbeat and it will be the heart of the dance. Dance, dance, wherever you may be... And always finish with The Last Waltz.

[@ThisCanBePronounced]

Interesting, I also recently got into Celtic music. That, plus being abroad without my violin meant this was a good time to re-evaluate and try a few things even though I did have lessons for years. Bought a $35 violin, gave it $60 strings, and chose not to buy a shoulder rest to try it out. It's been great so far!

[@randkperkins]

How has your no shoulder rest journey been? I too am a flute player and took up violin 5 years ago. I just love it and am learning the higher positions. Going no shoulder rest stopped my pain.

[@betsybronstein1926]

Love this video. I play without a shoulder rest. My playing and comfort has improved dramatically. I use a high chin rest made by Kreddle. The violin rests on my collar bone and left hand. I now feel that I can shift much better with the greater connection to the violin. It feels like I am shifting through the instrument rather than imposing my left hand on that which is locked in place. Big game changer for me. When I was starting violin in the 60’s, I never used a shoulder rest. Somehow I got started and then suffered neck and shoulder pain. No more of that now. I have no problem with all the great players that use the rest. It’s not for me.

[@dunder567]

I think this might be the single most important video on youtube that relates to violin technique and should act as the foundation upon which anyone learns to play the violin. You thoroughly and clearly explain the relationship between the violin, the left hand, and the shoulder and how it applies to every aspect of violin playing. I was struggling with a lot of tension in my playing and felt like I was hitting a wall when it came to improving my technique. This video really got to the root of what was holding me back, and ever since I started applying these principles to my playing, my intonation, resonance, and just about every aspect of my technique improved drastically. I used to think that playing without a shoulder rest was a type of witchcraft that only a select few people could do and now I can play without a shoulder rest as easily and naturally as I used to play with one.

[@philipq6906]

As a beginner I started with shoulder rest but have constant tense in the neck. After watching this I decided to take the shoulder rest off and although I have to lower my head more, I have less tension and pain in the neck. Gradually I can feel less stress in the neck/shoulder joints. To add one more content: I recommend the shoulder pad(a round plain pad attached/tied to violin) rather than nothing or a typical shoulder rest. Because a shoulder pad provides more friction and keeps the flexibility as well.

[@feskymaloon1439]

This video literally changed my playing for the better. I am a professional violinist who has been using a shoulder rest for my whole 30 year career, but I took your advice and tried playing without it. What an amazing difference! I find I can be much more expressive and I feel much less tension. My violin (an 1850 J.B. Vuillaume) sounds better, too. Like it can breathe again. I sincerely thank you.

[@robertmorris3128]

I just recently bought a violin and I was thinking about ordering a shoulder rest. Murphy changed my mind.

[@modholly1]

I have a long neck and got a super tall chin rest that helped. But could never get a comfortable shoulder rest - until a new teacher suggested ditching it. So much more comfortable. Thanks for for this video and also for showing clearly how to hold it in your left hand. (Turns out I'm already doing that - yay!)

[@harveyb4486]

How you joke about stuff tells me a lot about how good of a teacher you are. 😍

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

Lol, how you play in lessons will highly depend on whether you get joking me or stern, disappointed me

[@jimvanzino7646]

Thank you very much! Brand new (60 year old) to the violin and my first lesson with an instructor caused nothing but pain as I tried to clamp the violin using a shoulder rest. I cam home to do my practice and played with the rest a while and then thought I would Google playing without it...... Complete change in the ability to hold my fingers correctly after this! Having played the guitar for 45 years the violin left hand position is foreign to me but without the rest, using a a very thin piece of foam for slippage, I can now position my hand correctly. Thanks for the insights and great delivery.

[@socalkook370]

I got a bonmusica rest a while back and it helped me greatly improve my playing. When I was learning I used just a small foam pad but it felt awful. My neck is a bit on the longer side so the little extra height and support really helps and makes it sit incredibly comfortably on my collar bone so I have zero tension compared to when I play without one

[@momoma533]

I like the fact, that the thumb is automatically involved and active when doing shifts, because it needs to. When I shift with a shoulder rest my thumb tends to be lazy or scared ^^ and do not move together with the hand and the other fingers. :)

[@barbararhyneer4858]

This video was especially helpful for me. I learned w/o a shoulder rest (just a small sponge and even that was taken away by my teacher when I was 24.) However, at the age of 50… I felt down the stairs! I temporarily screwed up my shoulder and NEEDED a shoulder rest to hold the violin. Five years later now and I’m all healed up… super strong again… and the shoulder rest makes everything awkward no matter what angle I try. I took it off to reintroduce myself to the original no-shoulder rest and holding with hand but it’s like I have to learn all over again but the sound is great and it feels awesome. Watching your video reminds me of the steps to get used to it again. Thanks Bro

[@ericsargon5172]

Murphy I am a viola player retired. I do not use a shoulder rest but you have taught me a little more about holding the instrument. I am 96 years old and still learning. I am lucky to play duets with the exdirector of the Jerusalem Camerata violin /viola once a week. Really just to say most informing. Thank you

[@fiddlersfarm]

There is an online teacher who has spent years trying to find a comfortable setup with a shoulder rest. He has a variety of pieces of rubber gizmos and a $400 rest. He estimates that 80 percent of violinists are very uncomfortable with their setups! He also is a very stiff player. I was also miserable with my violin playing. I started working with your technique about 6 mo. ago and am absolutely loving the violin for the first time... I can't thank you enough for your teaching. All you're stuff is just remarkable! Also I like the muscle shirts.

[@shipsahoy1793]

I’ve been playing with the shoulder rest, but I’ve been working on freeing myself of the shoulder rest, because I find it ultimately gives the player more flexibility and better ergonomics … My experience so far dictates that you are 100% right on everything you said about the pros and cons of using and not using the shoulder rest! Thank you again for an excellent video in violin pedagogy.👍👍

[@mandyandmaxbird2780]

Thanks for your video. I played violin for 2 years with shoulder rest. I have not played for the last 6 months due to chronic pain in neck, upper back, shoulders. I miss it alot. I came across your video recently and am going to give it a try as the way you explain it makes alot of sense. Thankyou. I also started learning at 47 years hahaha so old

[@_littlefish_]

Since your post is 9 months old: Has playing without shoulder rest worked for you?

[@claudesevigny9476]

Thank you so much for making this video. I started playing at 21 and have struggled to get relaxed and figured it was do to the late start. After watching it I proceeded to play with my shoulder rest but with the use of my left hand. It’s phenomenal, the ease of playing. It’s like I’ve been trying to jump rope on one foot 🎉🙏🙏🙏

[@ChristopherBrooks_kenor]

I had such tension most of my playing life that I stopped playing. When I finally figured out to play senza shoulder rest, it transformed my playing. A few additional thoughts: 1. the shoulder rest is a big fat mute; the violin resonates much more without it. 2. the shoulder rest fixes the angle of the violin relative to the bow in three dimensions. 3. the proper chin rest is important; it should be over the tailpiece, not to one side. 4. Practising shifting with harmonics helps learn relaxed shifting. 5. At first, I used a non-slip pad, but I don't need this anymore. Great video.

[@kcald9891]

I really appreciate this advice, it goes against what literally everyone else on KZbin is saying... I think it's about to save me an insane amount of neck strain. I do find it most comfortable to keep the shoulder rest (probably because I'm on a viola and it helps with the added weight), but not feeling the need to hold my instrument up with my shoulder and chin is a great relief. Every time I start to get serious about practicing, I end up putting it away after a few weeks because of the upper body tension/pain. Maybe with this new way of playing I'll be able to stick with it. Here's hoping!

[@arthurmarek8418]

As a former UK 'peripatetic' violin teacher (meaning going to several schools each week to give lessons) love your post, I agree about Oistrach...I kept trying to ditch hated shoulder rests and finally succeeded when I realised that the first step is find the right chin rest, then it brcomes easy...

[@valeriehohman1230]

Thank you for this video. I have returned to violin after a break of ...oh, 20 years. I play without a shoulder rest and am doing concentrated work on learning positions. I was trying to stablize the violin with the shoulder-chin death grip in higher positions - which doesn't really work without the shoulder rest and makes the G string impossible to control. (I even pulled out an old shoulder rest to try to fix the problem - which adds stability but feels terrible). Thank you for letting me know it's ok (preferable even) to let the left thumb do the stabilizing work. I am now feeling more comfortable moving up the fingerboard.

[@vrzando]

Many thanks for your explanation. I am an adult self-taught player with good musical background from other instruments and activities. Being able to sit in my daughter’s violin classes with a wonderful teacher (Russian school influenced), I just went for it and reached a satisfying level. Then I stopped for various reasons and came back after several years, viola this time. I’ve been struggling terribly just to hold he instrument, tension and pains everywhere and I thought I would give that up for good. Now I am motivated again and I am going to give it a fresh start. Yo!

[@celinek.5967]

Thank you for this video. I learned violin as a child 40+ years ago with a little moon-shaped pad for a shoulder rest. When I took up violin again a few years ago, I just couldn't get comfortable with modern shoulder rests. I did try, but it just didn't feel natural. I gave up trying. Thanks for validating my decision!

[@onakaru]

Thanks a lot, man! Tried this and it instantly feels better. No more chin pain. It's a bit tricky to hold up with your left hand when you're not used to it, but it's still a lot more comfortable than holding it up by the chin/shoulder.

[@kiobe4]

Thank you for making this video. I am still a beginner but I was really struggling getting comfortable playing with a shoulder rest. My first teacher insisted on playing with a shoulder rest and clamping down on the violin with the head to secure it and free the left hand. I have experience playing other instruments and have learned a lot about exercise mechanics/ergonomics from dealing with various injuries over the years. The idea of clamping down on the instrument with the head/neck felt so unnatural, and having the instrument locked into place using the rest felt so stiff and awkward to me. It's bizarre that some teachers think this is preferable to simply using the hand to hold up this 1 pound instrument, especially when all the great violinists of the past didn't play with one. I started practicing some basics without a shoulder rest, pad, cloth, or anything...just the raw violin resting on my collarbone. It took a couple days to get used to the feeling, but it feels comfortable now and so much more natural, like my whole body is more connected to the instrument and I have more freedom of movement. It's worth noting too that I am not a muscular guy at all and am quite thin, so I don't think having big muscles or a broad chest/shoulders has anything to do with it. Either way, I feel good about continuing my journey with this foundation!

[@officialtshwarotshite1886]

I was in a audition and this professional French horn player on a panel got Mad at me that Why I'm not using a showlder rest, it was long time ago, and I said to him, I can't afford one and he got very mad, but I played anyway. The reason behind was because I was still more comfortable to play without a showlder rest and Young as well. Now I'm enjoying playing with a showlder rest. THIS VIDEO MEANS A LOT, THANK YOU 👏👏👏🤜🤛

[@AmyKurylo]

I struggled to find just the right height and angle and chin placement with my shoulder rest, buying all kinds of expensive rest, just to watch your video and realize I didn’t need one! Thank you, I hope to be free of my shoulder rest now that I have spent so much time acclimating myself to it. I have noticed that my fourth finger sounds a lot more clear with out having a Shoulder rest, so I hope this is the right move for me.

[@mohamednizar590]

I FIND DIFFICULT TO HOLD VIOLIN, WITHOUT SHOULDER REST, IN THE COLOR BONE. WHEN I PLACE VIOLIN IN MY COLOR BONE IT DROPS FROM THE COLOR BONE. NOT STANDING IN THE THE COLOR BONE,ANY SUGGESTION FROM YOU SIR?

[@Hadriandidnothingwrong-z8c]

I play with a shoulderrest and a piece of cloth that is held in place by the tailpiece instead of a chinrest. I tried playing without a shoulderrest for a while but I think this is much more comfortable and gives me more freedom than playing without a shoulderrest, which I also tried for a while. I could play without a shoulderrest just fine but the problem was, that I never got used to the constant fear, that I could make a mistake and see my precious violin hit the ground and disintegrate. Also I prefer my violin to be angled forward in relation to my upper body because It gives my left hand a lot more freedom. I will just lean back a bit when I need that extra weight on the strings.

[@guillaumeantonini8835]

Very interesting ! Just a detail : oistrakh always played with a shoulder rest. I saw it un many videos because ì m a huge fan of his free playing. He used a small coussin, I mean kind of black sponge to keep an angle with the violin. You can really see it on many videos if you pay attention. Congrats for your work

[@johnbat6743]

I learnt to play the violin as a teenager and never used a shoulder rest because I was too lazy to put the darn thing on. I remember finding learning the violin easy... I've recently picked it up again this year during lockdown (24 years later) and I've been religiously using a shoulder rest. I'm now curious to try without it again and see how it goes! Maybe my lazy approach was why it was easier!

[@gerrykan3437]

Howdy, thanks for your informative video. As someone who has done it both ways - and in the end decided to play without - I would like to share my experience. First off, I started learning violin at a time when shoulder rests were still not very common amongst students. On the other hand, I was taught to sandwich the violin firmly between my chin and the shoulder without support from the left arm. Since I have a long neck, I would need to shrug to keep my fiddle in place. This, of course, caused my right shoulder to shrug as well, which created a lot of tension while playing. Shifting also became less agile was I paid more attention maintaining the position of my violin. So I bought a shoulder rest to hope that it would solve these problems. The effect was immediate. I was able to play with level shoulders, which improved tone production through better movement on both arms. However, I noticed that playing was getting uncomfortable, as I could no longer bring my violin to my bow easily, but instead I had to strech my right arm to bring the bow to the violin. In addition, the violin still kept slipping off my shoulder (I incorrectly assumed that the shoulder rest would secure my violin in place). I ended up playing it in a slightly contorted position, which resulted in neck pain after prolonged playing. In time I learnt to keep my shoulders level without the shoulder rest. I also accepted that you can never keep the violin in place without some support from the left arm. Playing became much more free and comfortable. I was able to retain the tone (and perhaps better) I got from using the shoulder rest, while without the restriction and ergonomic concerns. In a sense, the shoulder rest was like the training wheel which allowed me to know how I should be playing.

[@JSWilliamssr]

This makes very good sense. I am going to give it a try because there never seems to be a shoulder rest that actually fits my body.

[@carltonlauderman791]

I'm a beginner adult on violin. I've played many other instruments so finding the notes has been easy, but holding with my chin was frustrating. It hurt like hell. You just improved my tone on a cheap fiddle with generic strings to where it sounds like I've played for a little while. No more pain in the neck. Thanks!

[@mckmurkles]

I got ripped in 4 weeks now I can play without a shoulder rest. Haha. Great video. I'm convinced I'll always play with a shoulder rest but I've just started experimenting without shoulder rest and it's definitely changing how I think about shifting.

[@shailebeth]

My shoulder rest bit the dust tonight. I’ve been playing without one and I actually like it better. Thank you for your video!

[@dannymurzi3533]

After playing 15 years without shoulder rest I decided 3 years ago to experiment without the chinrest and it's wonderful, the freedom is unique. you have to experiment with the point of gravity and with the variety of angles of inclination very subtly, almost imperceptibly.

[@georgeplatsakis7277]

How you can play without chinrest? Please let me know.thanks

[@Chenyu_Huang]

I started to transition out of using a shoulder rest about a year ago, it wasn’t easy at first, but eventually I completely dropped it, now I can’t imagine playing with one ever again. Thank you for the video.

[@anna75994]

Good advice , learned to play as a kid by pushing my (long) neck in the chin rest … got aches and problems and led to me stop playing . Started again after 20 year break and needed to find a relaxed way to hold the violin and to play ! Will probably need a shoulder rest (my violin goes down my shoulder and collar bone very easy …I am quite thin and have a very long neck and the violin hasn’t got much leaning surface…) but just learning the technique of the thumb will be a key for my future new relaxed way and the only way I will be able to play !!!)

[@jessejules2092]

Your advice is so helpful. I am a classical pianist. Was given a violin so am teaching myself. But, was concerned about the fact that I'm learning without a shoulder rest and how I should use my thumb. This video is incredibly helpful.

[@lyndiem1847]

Saw this video 6-7 months ago and started playing with no chin rest. I liked it because it gave me much better control and regular chin rests didn’t work well with my long neck. After a couple months I got symptoms of a pinched nerve in my neck which causes a lot of pain in my arm and shoulder. I have many other contributing factors such as age (62), working all day on computer and lots of physical activity. I went to my luthier and he set me up with a custom fit chin rest. I don’t have the same freedom of movement but with the PT I’ve been doing for a few weeks the pain is less. This may not be a problem for a lot of people but please consider. Your nerve bundles come out of your neck next to your vertebrae so pinching down to your shoulder with your chin may not be the best.

[@InvincibleViolinist]

Yes, that Oistrakh video is superb. I only wish I'd been in the room on that day. What an electrifying performance! Regarding the Suzuki comments: I've done a fair bit of Suzuki pedagogy, training with some of the best in the world and I don't remember anyone suggesting that the neck and chin should be used as a lever. On the contrary a lot of the early setup is focused on soft hands and freedom from tension throughout the body. Setup is done with soft pads and such if needed. A shoulder rest would be a last resort used in rare cases. There's a lot of misinformation about Suzuki pedagogy, and it would be better if people educated themselves before spreading that around. You can find great teachers (and terrible teachers) in any facet of the violin world. There's so much to like about Suzuki pedagogy done right, as it is by thousands of wonderful trainers and teachers throughout the world. Peace, and thanks for bringing great content to KZbin, Murphy Music Academy!

[@MiserableLittleDoomGoblin]

Totally agree with you Tobiah. After studying the violin for about a year I just could not get comfortable with a shoulder rest. I began trying to play without one. I noticed two things: 1) the violin sounded better--it was more resonant, more volume, an overall richer sound. Swapping the shoulder rest on and off definitely demonstrated that it caused a muting effect on how the instrument converted the wave energy of the strings into sound. 2) it felt more natural, more organic, to let the violin move around as opposed to remaining in a fixed position due to the shoulder rest. It felt strange to move around while playing, only to have the instrument remain static. The only downsides I've experienced has been on figuring out shifting and vibrato with the left hand providing support for the instrument. Oh, and tuning. That's probably been one of the bigger challenges, especially with the fine tuners while tuning the strings to perfect fifths. Any recommendations for that? (Disclosure: I'm a lefty so my left hand is naturally the stronger one. Perhaps that might also be a factor in why it felt more natural for me...and why others may feel differently.)

[@stephaniecgilmore]

Lefty here as well and have been playing without a shoulder rest three years now and love it way better then th18 years before that playing with one.

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

I'm not a lefty, quite the opposite, haha. I played with a shoulder rest till I was 16. My new teacher made me switch, though he didn't explain it quite properly, and tuning did take some learning. I got used to letting the violin sag a bit, sometimes I'd support it on the shoulder, and I mean the actual deltoid area, to help hold it while tuning. Experiment a while and you'll find something that works right for you. Just be ok with the fiddle sagging a bit. I have a whole other video on shifting. You have to involve the thumb a lot more. There is no "shoulder rest vs non-shoulder rest" shifting technique. There's only good and bad shifting technique, and you should do good shifting technique whether or not you play with a shoulder rest or no. However, I've found that making my students who play with rests practice shifting without one really helps their shifting. It awakens their hand a little more. Of course, this requires they learn proper shifting in the first place. Vibrato is similar. You just have to get a little more used to the violin shaking a bit, and learn to not have a stiff hand.

[@janesmith8316]

At my first lesson the teacher told me to put on my shoulder rest. I asked her if I had to because I hate it. She looked at me like I had 2 heads then finally said. Do as you like. I played for along time without one. But because of neck pain I started to use one and found that my bowing greatly improved as a result of a consistently placed violin. Vibrato is easier to learn with a rest too. However, I am playing without the shoulder rest again as it really is, in my opinion, the best way to play. I like the loose style of playing you bring to attention here and am going to strive for that. Thanks!

[@monicagrindstaff5489]

As a beginner, I appreciate this so much! It really helped and I've learned a lot!

[@jtannernz]

I often begin my practice without a shoulder rest to make sure I am holding and shifting correctly! If I'm stuck on a difficult run, I learn it without a shoulder rest - my thumb then does what it's supposed to - and then with the shoulder rest it is easy. I make all my students do this for all the reasons you mentioned. I've never gone all the way to no shoulder rest but it absolutely does have its benefits!

[@amezcuaist]

I bought one of the first Menuhin shoulder rests but that was a few years after using just a very uncomfortable chinrest from age ten. The shoulder rest came at about age 16 . The idea of making the thumb do more work now is like beginning to learn vibrato all over again . So ---well done with the explanation . You can spot Milstein using his palm for adjustments sometimes . ie bending the wrist for a second .

[@michaelpalmerart6787]

I’ve been looking for this for months! Thank you so much for the detailed explanation and examples! I’ve been practicing now for about 7 months and my only real issue right now seems to be maintaining balance when playing the E string. Though considering what you said about moving the violin around to easily bow the strings, it may be the solution I’ve been seeking. I’ll go try that.. right now!

[@joshuawarren8734]

If I can play my 17.5 inch viola without a shoulder rest without any problem.. there's no excuse for violinists. Liked the video, I wholeheartedly agree that playing without one helps intonation because you have to feel each note, also it relys heavily for bigger shifts of intermediary notes, which we all should know anyways. Hope you're keeping well!

[@morefiction3264]

All I know is when I was complaining of neck pain I talked to a former concert master for the orchestra in our city who was a friend of my parents. First thing she said was, you need a shoulder rest because you have a long neck. Fill up that space. But your points about intonation and shifting and left hand technique are well made. I could use some work there.

[@billlacasse9414]

I feel that I play better, sound better without a shoulder rest, though I do not have a wealth of education and experience. My intonation improves in a more consistent manner. I do not like feeling separated from my instrument. I feel I can better judge what is happening under my own ear when I don't use a shoulder rest. Everything seems more natural and organic without one.

[@j28ef]

In the closing remarks of his book "Left-Hand Technique" Ruggiero Ricci suggests exactly the same, that the left hand will have better contact with the instrument. I was skeptical at first, but decided to ditch my shoulder rest for 2 days of practice (after 14 years playing with shoulder rest). Immediately, I noticed an improvement in accuracy of my shifts and much less neck tension. It was a truly mind-blowing moment. Thank you for this video, it is helping me to further understand the thumb and its relationship to other fingers while playing shoulder rest free.

[@YankeeFiddler13850]

I agree with EVERYTHING you say about lack of tension and keeping the fiddle out of the Valley between your thumb and index finger. However, young students, and just about any beginner, will want to RAISE their shoulder and press down their head in order to feel secure when holding their fiddle withOUT a shoulder rest. If a student is using muscular tension to keep the instrument in place when using a shoulder rest then it must be pointed out that gravity pulling their head down into the chin rest is what's going to keep the instrument secure, especially when shifting. Too much tension will be the result of NOT using a shoulder rest. Yes, your examples of great violinists are relevant. I'm curious how long it took them to play tension free not having some device to make up the difference between their neck length and width of the fiddle.

[@SofiaViviEnDo]

The best thing I did for myself was removing the shoulder rest (I am skinny so I do put a cloth folded just enough to pad my collar bone). The second best thing I did was start my student without one. I got quite a different result in them. First thing I noticed, is a more relaxed violin hold (after they got used to violin). They improved left hand position much faster. I've made a complete switch in my playing after I took some time (couple of months) with very little to not playing, and restarting without s.r. Suddenly many things I struggle for years started to change to almost desapear.

[@SunilAruldas]

I have returned to the violin at 64. Now I have a neck C4 C5 problem, and also a deep partial tear in my left shoulder muscle. So the shoulder rest is the only way for me to avoid pain. But I guess I'm a special case. And I've had to relearn muscular movements which were automatic when I was young

[@bilby9143]

I agree with much of what you're saying. However, Suzuki did not advocate playing without a s/rest. He demonstrated without a s/rest simply when playing open string and to maximise the resonance. However, I play shoulder restless and teach this too and again agree with your main thesis. No need for the Suzuki bashing - no method (yuk) is perfect and SM is far form perfect.

[@willscorner8423]

My first violin came yesterday. Without shoulder rest. I thought damn, should’ve thought about that but slowly I get why this is actually a good thing. Will learn it without.

[@alexmccarthy75]

I only recently began teaching myself violin. I got myself a nicer violin, and it came with a shoulder rest. I have a pacemaker, and the shoulder rest keeps the violin from smashing against where my pacemaker wires come out - causing discomfort. After watching this video, I'll give it another whirl without the rest. Some of the example videos on here show me that it might be possible for me, without the discomfort.

[@SofiaViviEnDo]

Another big issue with s.r. is that they are designed for quite an specific shape of players. In narrow shoulder, skinny and or shorter players, s.r. sits on the shoulder joint, therefore, causing a lot of issues.

[@sneddley]

I find this a terrific presentation of this subject, very compelling. May I suggest that you make a video exploring the kinds of sounds, the quality and bigness of sounds one can make without a rest that differ from the sounds achievable with one. I believe that the best argument for having this “rest-less” attitude towards the instrument (even if one chooses to use a shoulder rest as the example at 14:00 showed so perfectly) is based on sound potential of the different support method options.

[@Violinna]

Fantastic video!! Ditching the shoulder rest when I was 17 was the best decision ever - so much more freedom!

[@rubevaughn]

My teacher back in the 70's started us with no shoulder rest. So from age 6 to say 11 I played with no shoulder rest. She then introduced the shoulder rest. Her idea was to teach us to hold the violin properly and then introduce the rest. I actually found the rest to be much more comfortable especially when we were doing long practices. I was surprised when my daughter started that they had her on a shoulder rest from the start. Interesting to see this video as it's made me think back to those early days for myself and wonder if this is why she taught us the way she did.

[@johnmeriwether9161]

Thanks- Attempting to play without. I have some serious arthritis in my neck from 30 years of playing. Another example of speed and agility is “fiddler “example is Michael Cleveland

[@joseperez-cl8jk]

Hi just started today and was trying to figure out how to in every way this is my way of trying everything out without having to. tuning and then going for it in a slow motion to get a good sound thank you everyone who has added to this for the information. 😊

[@maurazebra]

I use a tall shoulder and chin rest BUT... have found as I get better at the violin, I'm holding it up with my hands exactly as you describe... not with my chin and shoulder. I may try it without the shoulder rest some time soon.

[@imagomundiful]

One more point not mentioned in the video: total change in optics about sound and dynamics being produced as balance between right bow hand and an active left hand (bringing the violin INTO the bow as opposed to right hand pressing down and killing the resonance). This way you feel you have a circulating flow of sound between right and left hand and awareness on always using minimal possible pressure to produce sound (in the right hand fingers as wrll as left hand fingers). Once right hand is freed of useless cramping on pressure, left hand will follow 😊

[@ianmitchell-gill7393]

Subscribed! Thanks so much for this video. I have purchased a violin and it will be arriving soon. I play guitar, bass, and ukulele. I love the violin and I embrace the challenge. I dare to suck when I start. I've been wrestling with the idea of a shoulder rest because I'm "old school." I want a violin, a bow with rosin and hard work. I'm getting into it late as I'm 50 years old. Don't you underestimate me! I am close to earning a black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and I started that at 40. I am SO grateful for this video. Question, though ... what do I do if I sign up for lessons and the teacher wants me to use a shoulder rest? I'd rather not. Thanks again for being you. I look forward to your future videos.

[@yacine.m]

I started BJJ a couple of months ago, im 17.

[@ianmitchell-gill7393]

@@yacine.m great age to start. Don't quit! It is so hard, but you will become so much more. When you get defeated on the mat, remember that you will be just like the person who beat you if you stick with it. Good luck!

[@patfiddles]

I always thought that if you couldn't hold the violin in place without using your left hand, then you had to use a shoulder rest. I'm going to try going "commando" without my Kun shoulder rest for a week and see how it goes. Off the bat, I'm seeing the violin is more horizontal to the floor, I need to hold it a little more with my left hand, but there is no need to squeeze, and you really feel the vibration of the instrument when you play- the shoulder rest dulls a lot of that sensation.

[@hummingfrog]

Folk fiddlers sometimes play with the violin supported by the chest, entirely away from the neck and shoulder. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts about this. (Note: I originally posted this comment with a link to a KZbin video that had an example, but for some inexplicable reason KZbin suppressed that comment. KZbin does that a _lot_ these days, which I find infuriating And they are sneaky about it: the only way to even tell that your comment has been suppressed is to open the video in private mode and see if you can see it there).

[@alexandrajames8734]

I started playing in my late 50's mainly from youtube videos. I've never felt comfortable with the shoulder rest as it always felt as if my violin was slipping down. Because of this slipping I've been hooking my thumb onto the neck of the violin to support it. I'm going to try playing without the shoulder rest and see if I'll stop hooking the thumb and see it it's more comfortable. cheers

[@normul5984]

thank you - my daughter in law doesn’t use a shoulder rest and I could never figure out how. This was very helpful - I’m going to mess around with it and see what I can do (long neck and all!).

[@DennisBLee]

I FEEL SO LIED TO. I remember my very first lesson at Suzuki at age 4 was to demonstrate that I could clamp the violin between my shoulder and my chin and hold it up with both arms down. I developed an association from a young age between practice and PAIN. I feel like so much of my reluctance to practice and my eventual 20 year hiatus from playing was due in part to this negative association and tension that I developed so early on. I've just started playing again recently and I'm going to keep the shoulder rest but embrace this much looser and relaxed approach and see how it affects my technique. Now if only I can get the disapproving glares of my former teachers out of my head. Anyway, thank you!

[@lawrence18uk]

Centre mounted chin rest makes things easier... I started using no shoulder rest after 10 years using it, because I found out that my instrument sounded better (the sound wasn't stifled) with nothing touching the belly! . I still haven't mastered the left-hand position; I find it difficult to put my thumb on the Edge/ side of the neck - I don't know exactly why, maybe it's something to do with relative length of thumb and fingers but certainly I notice a great amount of flexibility in the thumb positions. I also heard Yehudi Menuhin advise violinists to keep a gap between first ( index) finger and neck of violin, so I guess this is a variation that you can use. I still have to work on releasing the neck tension that built up when I was learning to play with a shoulder rest.

[@paddlepower888]

Excellent video, Tobiah. My shoulder rest hurt and I couldn’t rest the violin on my collarbone-too sensitive there. Plus, since my collarbone is pretty level, playing the D/G strings was awkward. Still, your enthusiasm impels me to keep trying-I strive for relaxation and I get better slowly with using my thumb to hold the violin. I just made a shelf that stands in for my collarbone--it is really stable and easy to adjust the angle for playing G or E strings. With that kind of stability, I may not keep a chin rest, given the examples in your video. I already use a sling to keep the violin from moving away from my neck when I shift to lower positions. Cheers Jeff

[@paddlepower888]

August 11 update. After a few more weeks of playing twenty minutes/day I’m still using a sling but have almost grown out of the shelf I made and used to protect my sensitive collarbone. I park the violin in front of the collarbone rather than on top of it-for now that works. I’ve “trained” myself out of using my chin to “hold” up the violin and often play without touching the chin “rest.” My left hand holds up the violin. I did a test with my shoulder rest mounted to the violin. It takes 2 1/2 to 3 pounds of pressure on the chin rest to level up the violin. I’ve gone from 2.5 lb to zero.

[@lecidcampeador]

Hola, pues yo tengo problema con los hombros cuando no uso hombrera. El violín básicamente queda en el aire porque mi cuello es largo. Muy fácil para los demás decir que la hombrera es innecesaria cuando tienen la fisionomía adecuada para soportar un violín sin accesorios.

[@STARDUSTSTRINGS]

Luckily, I started before the advent of the Wolfe/Kuhn shoulder rest. We had a pad with rubber band and that was it. It was completely impractical to try to hold the violin up with the chin and shoulder. I did it a few times as a child, but it obviously hurt. Then you think, maybe I just need to practice holding the violin with my chin/shoulder, and like a muscle, I will get strength and it won't hurt anymore. Wrong. That worked for a little while, until I really started playing a lot. Then the Wolfe and Kuhn should rests arrived. This made it easier, but still, holding the violin with the chin and shoulder is impractical, always has been. The truth, for me, is that I have always used both the chin/shoulder and left hand/thumb to hold the violin. Almost the only time I use my chin/shoulder is during large downshifts, or if I need to, for some reason, not hold the violin with the left hand, ie. page turns. The Wolfe/Kuhn style should rests do help provide stability, even when holding the violin with the left hand. Wolfe/Kuhn style shoulder rests allow my upper arms, torso, neck, and head to move more freely while still holding the violin with the left hand/thumb. And that is why a shoulder rest is important. It stabilizes the violin so you may move the rest of your body more freely. A shoulder rest is not so you can pinch the violin with your chin/shoulder ('That trick never works' almost never)

[@LadyTigerLily]

When I was 4 and had my first half-size violin, I had a chin rest grip that dug into my collar bone when I played, so I had one of those weird blue foam wedges with a rubber band that hooked onto the end button and the lower corner. I hated it. After I moved up to using a full size violin, I never played with a shoulder rest again and never looked back (I'm 34 now). I find them very uncomfortable, no matter the configuration or style. That being said, I'm quite petite, and there's less height between my shoulder and my chin than, say, some of my friends, so my issue was always that the shoulder rest felt like it was pushing my shoulder down and my arm out of position.

[@vishalsubramanian2051]

I used to actually use a shoulder rest. But one year I went out of my country for vacation and took my violin with me, but I forgot my shoulder rest. For about 3 weeks I played without a shoulder rest. It started very hard, but soon it felt very comfortable, and when I came back I tried my shoulder rest and hated it. I still play without a shoulder rest, but my teacher recommends that I should use a shoulder rest since sometimes I lift my shoulder up a bit. Do you have any recommendations on how I can still play without a shoulder rest but not lift my shoulder?

[@dianal.1279]

Hillary Hahn, Maxim Vengerov, Shlomo Mintz and the list goes on. Lots of fantastic violinists playing with shoulder rest. It seems to me it isn't, indeed, a problem. Use it or not depending on your morphology and what feels comfortable. If it's good enough for Hillary Hahn and Vengerov...

[@Helz777]

To be honest, sometimes I forget to put the shoulder rest on and I don't notice the difference. Only my Polish teacher notices and tells me it is easier to use in the long run, because you can free your hands, especially pizzing with both. Easier she said. Not necessary. One thing though, I needed a centre chin rest, before I could even do your framing lesson and I am on a 7/8 violin. You can have really tiny hands.

[@FCarraro1]

Haha I reacted the same as you hearing TwoSetviolin say that. Great video. Just a question: how do you handle shifting with sweaty hands during a concert or an audition? After a while in which I struggled with this I tried using baby powder on my thumb and index and it worked out fine :D bit still not optimal, since it goes away after a few minutes and the thumb returns sticky again. cheers from Italy x

[@kendyboston4225]

Fantastic . Shoulder rest is like trying to swim the plympics with water wings !!

[@jonobester5817]

I had a teacher once that made me play without. I think Heifetz had a thin piece of rubber in there. I just dug up some old pieces of leather and a piece about 3"x10" that will also go over the chin rest! And thanks for the Shostakovitch!

[@maelperron_guerra4946]

I have been playing with a shoulder rest for 20 years, but back pain caused me to stop violin.. I ditched the shoulder rest and the pain disappeared, but I just CAN'T play without it ! How the hell do I shift ? How do I vibrate ? I just can't hold the violin without

[@TeaAndCreampie]

ive been trying this technique where i hold the violin stable with my gimp suit, wearing a gimp suit acts as a buffer between your shoulder and the violin and gives the violin more grip and purchase on the shoulder and frees up shoulder movement under the suit allowing you to play more freely without moving the violin no matter your shoulder size or shape. i highly recommend it

[@steveandrews8301]

What's a "gimp suit"? Thanks.

[@TeaAndCreampie]

@steveandrews8301 you should be able to try them on at any music store they often have them in the violin area. If they don't have them on display just ask someone who works there

[@catherineclarke8706]

I find that musicality is enhanced without the shoulder rest, more freedom in the general (once the elements of this technique are mastered...), a better bond with the instrument, and a healthier posture in general (as long as the neck does not lock in a state of tension).

[@edtherhudson5986]

Please compare neck lengths of ‘no shoulder rest advocates’ and those that use one. I think you’ll find that the ‘no’ bunch have rather shorter necks than the ‘yes’ bunch!! Mine’s long. I use a shoulder rest!

[@diegoroca827]

the most beautiful thing about playing without shouler rest is one less accessory to carry