How to Start Your Short Line Railroad-1

[@steamman5320]

Having done it, the best way to have 1 million dollars from starting a shortline is to begin with 5 million dollars.

[@killerbee6310]

Yep - also heard the rule of thumb is make up your start-up budget...then double it.

[@davehughesfarm7983]

A lot like farming and trucking..

[@Peter-mt6lg]

So if a lumber co gets a car load of lumber,how much is the railroad bill?

[@killerbee6310]

@@Peter-mt6lg all depends on the distance coming from but "thousands" is a realistic answer.

[@AnthonyZappacosta]

It’s like they say in racing to make one million dollars start with two 😂

[@daveyboygee]

I have no hope of actually running a short line anytime soon but as as a railroad enthusiast who has been certified As a brakeman and a conductor for small historic Railroad this is fascinating! Thank you for the wisdom and hard work editing you put into posting this!

[@killerbee6310]

And a sincere thank you for your comments. I try to make it worth your while to watch. I would always tell short line wannabees that it is not for the faint of heart.

[@eugenetswong]

Davey, are volunteers able to maintain your tracks? I figure that that can save money, but the problem is that it takes so much labour.

[@jasonsmith373]

There's a shortline in my area, the Winchester & Western, and over the past 35 years it has grown and grown to much success. In the early days of WW owning the line (formerly Pennsylvania, then Conrail) it was a mess, but as they grew they completely transformed it. They have their own in-house locomotive refurbishment operation, they added a line (including a trestle) to serve a local concrete factory in my area. 80 car mixed trains are not uncommon and they have direct connections to CSX and NS. They were recently purchased by OmniTrax, but I've seen few changes from the point of view of a novice observer and the WW name remains. What a success story, in my opinion. I mean, they were using switch locomotives to pull 7-car sand trains over 50 miles of rough track on their main line in the late 80's and now they're a modern railroad with good track and long, mixed trains. (They have a whole other operation in New Jersey!)

[@killerbee6310]

It was not uncommon to see their cars assigned to sand shippers in Illinois years back too. The "Wawa cars". I am always intrigued with the lines that stuck it out and got thru the tough times and hang on and eventually made it a success. A lot of times personal sacrifices had to be made.

[@pm8302]

This video is spot on! As a Traffic Manager and a former railroader on both the sales and operations side.

[@killerbee6310]

Appreciate the validation!

[@DogRedful]

Thank you! Enjoy learning about the business side of railroading.

[@killerbee6310]

As I enjoy discussing the business side.

[@zxatl2003]

I have never heard that sort of inside information. It was really interesting. Good Work!

[@killerbee6310]

Thank you. Eventually there will most likely be a sequel - a lot left unsaid....

[@Jennifer-K5LA]

As a life time rail fan, I always watch videos of passing or working trains. This type of video was not only educational, it was immersive and very informative about railway operations and exactly how the work and run. Thank you for sharing this! You definitely have a subscriber here.

[@killerbee6310]

Thank you very much. I appreciate you taking the time to comment. I plan on doing more such videos. "All I need is time."

[@jackburton4861]

This is absolutely fascinating. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

[@killerbee6310]

And thank you for watching and commenting

[@erict5234]

Fantastic info... Were you a manager at the WC / CN? Also, from the mechanical side (from a different class 1), the maintenance that is necessary for cars and motive power on a shortline is also not easy to figure out... All it takes is for the FRA to show up and take exception to something on your power, and the unit might be sidelined... inspections, overhaul schedules, and servicing all need to be figured out. Supply and logistics for fuel and parts can bankrupt a shortline before they ever turn a wheel! Even if you lease your locomotives for a start-up short line, you have to know HOW to keep them maintained... If a locomotive has to be moved over a connecting class 1to a home shop and doesn't meet the interchange requirements, it will sit and rot... That Nicolet Badger Northern unit in upper WI has been sitting unmoveable for decades because the shortline wouldn't pay for the necessary repairs to make it interchangeable!

[@killerbee6310]

Not to mention that because of the issues you list, many short lines incur the expense of keeping a back up unit on the property.

[@eugenetswong]

Would either of you list 1 or more examples of interchange requirements, please?

[@erict5234]

@eugenetswong The AAR sets requirements that railroads agree to and follow for interchanging cars and locomotives. Air brakes, couplers, journal bearings, wheels, and other safety components, such as windows, handholds and steps must meet these specific standards, or the receiving railroad can refuse shipment. Look up the AAR interchange rules for the complete requirements.

[@mikecroper8422]

Great video... many thanks for explaining some of the details involved in running a railroad. What I took away from your video; the thing that really surprised me most was the condition of the track in the USA... it's only one step from scrap metal, lol. I'm based in Europe and I have never seen track like you have over here.

[@killerbee6310]

You are seeing branch line track that supports a small train two or three times a week, usually at 10 m.p.h. The lines are usually 20-30 miles so the train can make a round trip in a day so no one feels any need to make the track faster. The lack of money being invested in a line is usually what keeps it around.

[@shortliner68]

You must be speaking of the "spaghetti rail" that's used a lot on short and branch line tracks....even some secondary tracks as well.

[@joeymartinez224]

Europe does not have the kind of local door-to-door freight delivery on the scale of the US. That's the track you are seeing

[@MP-oh5eo]

I don't know where you live in Europe, but around my hometown (Northern France), there is a 10 miles long spur which serves only one customer (a big chemical plant) daily with a single engines and a few tank cars back and forth. Until recently (the line got renewed a few months ago), the track speed was limited to 10MPH and having rode my bike along it for several years, I can tell you it's shape was a disaster (rotten and broken ties everywhere, plants growing in the ballast, etc.). BTW, this spur belongs the national railway company (SNCF). So the US style decaying branchline is certainly not unheard of on our side of the pond. Just that we (at least in France) have may be 1/10 or 1/6th the volume of rail transported freight the US have.

[@cdavid8139]

That's true Mike. In Europe the lines are pulled up and the product moves on the highway. In the US and Canada we provide entrepreneurs the option of trying to save the lines by operating the last (or first) miles at slower speeds. Millions of trucks are kept off the highway and there is far less pollution as a result

[@SteveTheFazeman]

Thank you for this very educational video. It made me think about the learning curve that the Aberdeen, Carolina and Western Railway (ACWR) had to overcome to make it a viable short line.

[@killerbee6310]

Glad to hear you enjoyed it. Thank you for taking the time to comment.

[@cdavid8139]

Bob Menzies was one smart dude

[@3ftsteamrwy12]

Having grown up in the 1960's in PA, a LOT of shortlines where I grew up came out of the PennCentral collapse/Conrail forming debacle, as well as the EXPLOSION of "tourist" railroads in the reigion after the Strasburg railroad became sucessful, some being passenger only some being freight operations with passenger trains thrown into the mix, its VERY true that for every sucess there are MANY failures, and some short lines only suceed after years or effort, and some changes in ownership.

[@killerbee6310]

As I have said several times, buying and starting a short line is not for the faint of heart (or the under capitalized).

[@FremontRailMedia]

I really apprecieate the video you made. I was looking to start a shortline railroad in the future (in the USA since Europe doesn't need shortlines) but I was never able to find a video on KZbin how to start a railroad company in real life (The strangest fact is that there were more KZbin videos how to start an Airline which is much harder and more complicated.) So Thank you.

[@killerbee6310]

Yes, I knew it was a topic that had a void on KZbin.

[@TheBigdog868]

This information is good for anyone thinking about getting into business of any kind. What can you do better, and what value is the customer gaining from you being there? A lot of people forget this aspect, and they aren't in business for long.

[@killerbee6310]

Thank you - never really thought about it applying elsewhere but you are right.

[@jerrysinclair3771]

THIS was a very informative video. You really educated your audience today!

[@killerbee6310]

Perfect - then I met expectations. Thank you.

[@bobozo389]

A lot of really interesting information!

[@goodoldbubba6620]

Fascinating as Mr Spock once said. I wish I'd met one like you 30 years ago. I always wanted to be in the railroad business in some way.

[@killerbee6310]

Thank you for taking the time to comment.

[@XelanaterEllevanox]

This is a good video, very informative, and I look forward to future installments. However, I ask that if you are working with mono audio, please send the audio to both left and right channels in the editor. It was not comfortable only hearing it in the left.

[@killerbee6310]

Somebody else a few days ago also commented on an audio issue, but them someone else replied and said it was OK. Hmmmm.........

[@XelanaterEllevanox]

Do you have stereo speakers/headphones? You should be able to hear that your voice after the first clip is only coming out of the left channel.

[@killerbee6310]

@@XelanaterEllevanox OK yes, I hear what you mean. Thank you for pointing this out to me.

[@miker2002]

This was great! Shortlines are an important player in the industry, but a poorly conceived business screws everyone. Going now to watch the sequel.

[@killerbee6310]

Glad you liked it. Thanks for taking the time to let me know.

[@coxsj]

Killer shot at 4:37! The others are pretty good too!!

[@killerbee6310]

Thanks!! The one at 4:37 was pretty easy - simply shot against the sun.

[@paul2486]

Thanks!!! i would imagine you would have to have a pretty robust business plan to get any financing from a bank to run your operation! so all of the things you mentioned plus many more items would need to be solved... or projected!!

[@killerbee6310]

I might be wrong (and I invite corrections) , but it seems many purchasers don't do it with bank financing. And many short lines are bought now by short line holding companies, and they have the ability to self-finance or have other avenues of getting money.

[@bittyboy721]

This is a very interesting video and I would certainly love to hear more about this topic and ones like it. I have had some ideas about how to better utilize certain lines,improve service and frequency, and ease congestion. I never really took these ideas anywhere. I certainly don't have the capital to actually take them anywhere anyway...

[@killerbee6310]

Ya, starting up a short line can be a black hole for money if you haven't done good due diligence. Plus insurance - especially if you handle hazmat.

[@isaacfabris3179]

Great video! I recognized the Heyworth elevator loadout at 12:22 but didn't realize you were actually talking about the ITB until a bit later, when you showed more pics of it. I grew up in Clinton and am currently modeling the Heyworth Spur/Branch, but when CN/IC still operated it in 2006. I was under the impression that Tate & Lyle DID load ~100 car trains back when CN operated it in the 2000s, since it was the stub-end of the line, and had installed a derail somewhere between Heyworth and Wapella to protect the Gilman Sub mainline at Clinton -- was this not the case?

[@killerbee6310]

Am not 100% sure but I believe that was the case. When ITB started up service, they cut a deal with the elevator to load the trains, eliminating the need for the elevator to do it and making returning to rail that much more attractive.

[@brockakers1525]

Man this reminds me of Ohio Central before Genesee & Wyoming bought it out

[@cdavid8139]

Crazy outfit in the early days.

[@raymondjackson6069]

This guy is so fascinating, and it is very interesting to know the bolts and nuts behind those trains creeping through the city or steaming across the countryside. I can't think of one part of railroading this is not an industrial wonder. How it all comes together to make this country work. I once observed at the disappearing of railroad tracks in Detroit, that railroad tracks were the arteries of our economic system, and a professor who taught at U of M of all places countered that, no that is was because of trucks, railroads are being replaced. dumbest thing I ever heard. The wealth that trucks move is minuscule compared to what trains move, not to mention the efficiency, especially with many goods coming from elsewhere and have to be shipped all over the country. Plus, in the Midwest, as the auto industry dries up, so goes the railroads. I do have one peeve; it very irritating when you have to look at the graffiti people put on cars, defacing other peoples work. That should be a federal crime (probably is), and the penalty should be assignment to facilities where they rehabilitate rail cars. Condition for release being the complete rehab of of one freight car - after they learn how, so they would be there for a while. This way, they would be highly skilled upon leaving and could make much better use of their time.

[@killerbee6310]

I totally agree on the graffiti. I don't think people would like it if I came over and spray painted their vehicle. I grew up near Detroit in the 1970's...the amount of rail traffic and infrastructure that has disappeared is astounding,

[@raymondjackson6069]

​@@killerbee6310 Thanks, one guy tried to say, "well this is 'beautiful art'"", and I'm like if it's so beautiful, why don't they paint their house like that then (or probably their mama's house).

[@PacificEnterpriseNetwork]

Very interesting look into what goes on behind the scenes of railroading, thank you for sharing!

[@killerbee6310]

Glad you enjoyed it - a lot more to come. The only factor is time....

[@hjmiller2689]

Would you mind expanding on the thought or potential operators being tourist railroads? There are a few in Michigan that operate on Class III and Class II lines with special permission but will still occasionally swap crews to their locomotives and spot a spur or two. No one has ever really explained how a tourist operation can interchange so well with a larger than shortline railroad.

[@killerbee6310]

Not sure I completely understand the question but if anyone is spotting an industry, they have to be a STB-sanctioned "railroad". And if they are, then it is easier for them to operate on other railroads. But that said, tourist operations can still operate on "railroads", just as private operators can also operate across "railroads". Not sure if I answered the question....

[@jacobwright9557]

Amazing video. Please make this a series!

[@killerbee6310]

Thank you. Working on it. "Slow but sure."

[@bit-tuber8126]

Just passing through in interest, not intent, but I enjoyed learning on a new subject.

[@killerbee6310]

Well thank you for watching and commenting - glad you found it of interest.

[@southsidediy]

Very interesting video! It was cool seeing a shot of the old Central Illinois Railway working the BNSF Lumber District at 9:45. That was an old shot too, before the traffic dropped off of the line. I had them in my head as I watched this video, as I got to witness the last 3-4 years of their existence up close when I was in High School. The locomotive in that shot unfortunately got blown up by Tate and Lyle in Decatur a few years ago and has probably been scrapped by now.

[@killerbee6310]

It is indeed an old shot -- good catch. But still representative of many smaller short lines today. Thanks for commenting.

[@philhoward4466]

if i am starting a business that needs to be a railroad customer, how do i go about setting this up? how do i get the track connection? if i am next to a rail line? if i am some distance (but can get the property)? how is the business of sending cars out and receiving cars in actually conducted? what if it's one car every few days? what if it's 100 cars every day? do i buy cars? lease them? does the railroad loan them? box cars? tank cars? who is liable for equipment failure? derailments?

[@killerbee6310]

Yikes - Not trying to blow you off - please don't think that - but I could spend all night typing your reply. Let's make this topic a future video...it is a great topic

[@daleroth236]

There is one that started in Columbus Ohio about four years ago.

[@dionwilliams8161]

I believe that you're talking about the Kanawha River Railroad

[@zaklex3165]

@@dionwilliams8161 No, he's referring to the East Terminal Railway which also has a YT channel, but hasn't posted in a while. The owner apparently has been in the railroad derailment recovery business for years...and it's definitely not Hulcher.

[@BlackMan614]

Great video. I assume the only way a shortline can "get" either trackage rights or outright ownership is when a line is inundated with small 1-2 car daily requiring a LOT of switching and is just not economically feasible at the union labor rate. In addition, their supply of 4-axle switching loco's is dwindling every year making it more $$. What I am surprised is there is not more outsourcing of track maintenance. They've outsourced car repair, locomotive repair (heavy) and heavy MOW maintenance (rail grinding, etc.).

[@killerbee6310]

Thank you. Several factors seem to lead to spinning off a line. The track falling into deplorable condition and in need of a major rehab can sometimes spur the decision to shed a line. And sometimes lack of traffic. And sometimes the knowledge that something can be done to increase volume - such as more frequent service - that the big carrier does not want to provide. The one thing that does seem to get outsourced a lot is the signal work and testing.

[@cdavid8139]

A large number of short lines outsource track maintenance. In particular heavy long-term maintenance projects or specialized work such as bridge or crossing repair

[@Marklin15]

Still a better investment than starting an airline

[@killerbee6310]

Yes - a very high barrier to entry for any competitors, unlike with airlines.

[@eugenetswong]

HI!! Thanks for sharing your experiences. I'm a transit advocate, so I know very little about this. I appreciated your stories about what made a good deal. It seems that sorting out the cars really helps you guys. In most cases, does it make sense for the class 1s to drop off cars for the short lines to sort? It seems that we need to catalog all the different kinds of tasks and projects that short lines can do.

[@killerbee6310]

Thank you for taking the time to comment. At the moment I am not looking for any work - too many video ideas to crank out !!

[@TaylorMMontgomery]

this is absolutely fascinating information. I'm assuming this is the process most tourist railroads go through as well?

[@killerbee6310]

Honestly cannot really say, as they do not fall under STB oversight.

[@LourdesReynoso-x7p]

Please make more, videos like this one 🙏

[@killerbee6310]

I plan to. I have three types of videos I cycle thru - Understanding Railroads, Inactive Lines, and the 8mm movies I obtained from a friend he shot in the 1960s. I do one of each then start the cycle again.

[@blainedunlap4242]

This is great. I would like to see a video of what it costs a shipper to move a car, who pays, the sender or the recipient? I know this question is like, how much does a house cost, but maybe a few specific examples you know of. What moves, where it moves to, what that costs. Another idea would be generally, a few examples of where something is picked up and where it goes. Who for example, takes a train of 100 loaded cement hoppers. Hope to see more.

[@killerbee6310]

Yes, I have been thinking of one along these lines. Thank you for the validation !!

[@cdavid8139]

As with trucking both the receiver or the shipper could be paying the freight. Or a third party. The costs vary widely depending on many factors. For example a carload of feed corn for chickens is far cheaper to move than a car of anhydrous ammonia.

[@0utside_andy]

No PGR photos...? 😏 Great work, as always, BB. This is a nice look into what it takes to 'startup', which is a lot more complicated than most people know. Nice explanation of rate making and the value proposition of a short line. One thing: at 6:33 you talk about converting regulated track into private track...this can be done without full abandonment if it is not "line of road" (mainline track). Sidings, spurs, and yard tracks can be leased or sold to private entities without abandonment proceedings.

[@killerbee6310]

Thanks Andy. I originally went more into Excepted Track but it made the video too long and I was afraid of losing people if I wallowed too deep in minutia.

[@0utside_andy]

You did a great job. Your videos are excellent! Excepted Track is an FRA track class, not exactly what I meant regarding the ability to offload non-mainline track without STB abandonment proceedings.

[@ramblinman4197]

Interesting topic made more interesting by your "insider" stories. Thanks for sharing!

[@killerbee6310]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@n.hermann7200]

Thank you for this video. I really enjoy learning about this side of railroading. KZbin has a lot of enthusiasts that focus on their favorite engine or rail line, but most of them don't have the knowledge of the operations or business side of the industry. I've heard that some class I's focus a lot on their operating ratios for their shareholders. That's why PSR has become more widespread. I've also heard that railroads will sometimes drop a line or service if the service yields a lower return than desired, even if it is still a profitable operation. Does that factor into shortline proposals, and if so, how?

[@killerbee6310]

One common reason for a large railroad to sell a line off is if track condition is so bad the line needs a major rehab and the owner doesn't think the traffic base is worth spending the money. Or maybe a bridge needs replacement. It is hard to determine exactly what a branch line is generating as far as a ror. It is fairly easy to determine the cost to operate a branch line, especially if it is served by just a local train. But determining how much revenue to apportion to the line gets tricky. A rail shipment will move over several line segments. How much revenue does the branch line in question get apportioned? Formulas have been created, as you gotta do something, but different formulas exist.

[@zaklex3165]

@@killerbee6310 I get the whole formula deal...but the simple way to look at it is this. Could the traffic be moved via rail from another loading point via transload, if so then you have to develop a formula, if the traffic can't be moved on your line via transload at another loading point then the total value should be assigned to the branch line. I know that's simplification, but losing the traffic entirely vs keeping it is a consideration(albeit there's costs involved., etc., etc.,).

[@killerbee6310]

@@zaklex3165 and yes, in fact that is an alternative way to allocate a movement's revenue - give it all to the branch line under the theory that if the branch line didn't exist, you wouldn't have any of the revenue. If you do it this way and find you are still losing money, then it is pretty conclusive.

[@thomasmackowiak]

Starting a short new line railroad takes a lot more planning and knowledge about how railroads interact with each other and their customers. (26 June 2024 at 0031 CDT)

[@killerbee6310]

And more and more, it is on the electronic side.

[@kelvintorrence5994]

great video sir, i always wonder what it cost to make a short linethanks again

[@killerbee6310]

They say to develop a start-up budget, then double it.

[@boydwalker161]

For that grain elevator, how much would it cost to add tracks to store and stage 75 more cars for a 100 car train?

[@killerbee6310]

I don't think you could have - the elevator is in town and kind of hemmed in - isn't really possible.

[@GregTryba]

At 9:50-10:02 how did you get that pic @ 3M Wausau WI? I'm local and have tried getting that shot many times, usually got asked to leave the property before I could get it!!!

[@killerbee6310]

I worked for FOXY when I took it and was in the plant on business.

[@AugustusTitus]

Awesome video, so many questions answered.

[@killerbee6310]

Excellent - glad to hear that.

[@pha5491]

Honestly didn't know about the STB i knew about the FRA but this is the whole business side of things and hmm, honestly wondering more. Gives me a bit to think about as here there's only one shortline and they wont get their heads out of where it doesn't shine.

[@killerbee6310]

Eventually I will get more posted for you to wonder about. Thanks for commenting!

[@pha5491]

@@killerbee6310 Np man,i find it interesting as I've been trying for years to get onto any with no luck,even with vet preference. Be waiting for more.

[@matthewlastrapes8104]

If I ever had that kind of money I would do it but narrow gauge instead it’s a little cheaper I believe

[@killerbee6310]

That was the idea at least when railroads were first laid as narrow gauge....

[@cdavid8139]

That would mean you would have to have both the shipper and the receiver all on your line. And in today's world that is incredibly rare. And truckers are amazingly competitive. Hence the reason there are almost no narrow gauge lines surviving

[@BNSF4706]

Nice, i want to start a railroad called "Moxie Pacific"

[@killerbee6310]

LOL-you can do anything... with enough money....

[@84GOAT]

Great video, I've always wanted to know how you started a Railroad company. I love the content. Keep up the good work. From your new subscriber ✨️

[@killerbee6310]

Thank you very much for taking the time to comment - and Subscribe !!

[@kevinb9327]

MORE! (please, sir). 😁

[@killerbee6310]

Coming....

[@betterl8thannvr]

Very interesting, please leep it up!

[@killerbee6310]

I shall - thank you for the inspiration

[@railscanner]

Great content Brian!

[@killerbee6310]

Thank you - good to hear from you.

[@admiralmudkip9836]

Suppose I wanted to start a passenger rail line, how much would this process differ? Would it even be possible?

[@killerbee6310]

Well, can't really help you there as we only turned lines over to parties that were going to generate freight to feed into us. Whenever we heard the words passenger trains or car storage from someone we pretty much wrote them off.

[@JBB4118]

Some other things to think about...... Some class one's require you to keep the track to a minimum standard. For the love of god have a good inspector and listen to him. He can be a contactor or employee. Choose in house MOW or contactors. Both sides have good/bad points. Motive power, if it's your first railroad this will be a big expense. You will need a place to store, inspect and supply water and oil. Also...someone needs to be able to work on them. Someone already employed by you? A contractor? Locomotives themselves, buy or lease? Both have good/bad points. Real estate, you need someplace to have a fax machine and perhaps a landline phone. This could be a shed you move onto the property or an old station or office building. Plus it's really nice to have a working toilet! And a place to warm up and eat lunch while waiting for a customer to load/unload cars so you can get them out to interchange saving both you and them money. Plus you just might make a good impression, many times we got to know customers very well, being invited to Christmas parties or cookouts. Employees......Pay a decent wage with good bennies! Many times i talked to a manager who offered a whopping 12$hr! Unless your desperate or need a start in the industry stay away from these people. You are the front line, derailment blocking a crossing? Hazmat spill? Pissed off neighbors about your locomotive idling in the back yard? Be prepared to talk to authorities. Get to know local Mayors, councils and Police/Fire officials on a first name basis. Treat them like the king of their hill because they are!

[@killerbee6310]

LOl-you see why I try for five minutes, decide I can live with ten, and end up going 15 minutes after I cut out all I can. I think a Part Two is in the works....

[@cdavid8139]

Couple of thoughts. You can have the best inspector there is but without the funds to enact on what they find your screwed. Used locomotives are easily found but depending on what you need the prices can indeed vary. IN this day and age there is little need for a fax or landline phone. Cell phones and an internet connection to a PC is more the norm. Many shortlines just lease a small office in a nearby town or shopping center. Railroads seldom sit and wait on customers to load/unload as the norm is at least a day or two. It's easy to say to pay a good salary and good benifits....if you have a profitable customer base. YOu have some good advice on getting to know local authorities.

[@JBB4118]

@@cdavid8139 Well, if you lack funds for basic repairs. You shouldn't be in this business. Yes Locomotives are easily found and you can get a beat up piece of crap cheap and you can hope it will last. Again, if you don't have funds you do not belong in this business. And remember used locomotive dealers are just like used car dealers. I can agree on landlines and faxes, that's me showing my age. Okay, not many railroads wait on a customer but in my experience we often have other things to do and other customers waiting. This where shortlines have the advantage.... Customer manager "these cars will be done in two hours. Can you come back and give us another shift for the day? Me "Sure, we'll take lunch and get your next cars ready{or go shift another customer}. And lastly.....if you can't afford to pay employees a good wage with good benefits, this industry is not for you. If you go cheap all you will get is the dregs or the guys who have been fired from every job who don't care and will tear stuff up .Or a young railfan looking for a start and will leave for a class one or class two regional in a year or two. If you refuse to pay into Railroad Retirement be ready to hire and fire a LOT. And any railroader worth his salt will walk away from you. If you do not have a profitable customer base and nothing in sight that branch should be railbanked or removed outright.

[@killerbee6310]

@@cdavid8139 Actually it is surprising how much some railroads still use faxes, thus forcing short lines to utilize them also.

[@andrewgray986]

excellent video as usual Brian!! never knew what it took to start up a branch line railroad. next video be about motive power perhaps?

[@killerbee6310]

LOL-that and a million other things....

[@andrewgray986]

@@killerbee6310 keep it up! they’re a blast to watch

[@killerbee6310]

@@andrewgray986 And make !!

[@andrewgray986]

@@killerbee6310 yep!

[@Nderak]

very interesting

[@killerbee6310]

Glad you think so!

[@idcanthony9286]

So we should all put our money together and start own short line passenger rail service?

[@killerbee6310]

NOOOOOOOOOOOO.

[@kevwebb2637]

Wouldn't starting with narrow gauge also work? There has been Railroads that started as narrow gauge. Denver & Rio Grande Western and Alaska Railroad started as 3ft gauge instead of standard gauge.

[@killerbee6310]

If you were narrow gauge you would not be complimentary to the rest of the North American network - unless you were going to stay strictly on your own line.

[@kevwebb2637]

@@killerbee6310 It will end up strictly on own line. Yet the benefit of doing 3ft is the locations it can do that standard gauge can't. Maintenance is also cheaper since 3ft gauge is smaller which can use lighter rails that can' be used on standard gauge. 3ft gauge benefits when you are in the mountains as the gaps are tighter. Like eastern Washington State, State of Idaho, and Montana as there are back roads and old track beds may not hold the size and weight of standard gauge.

VERY interesting!

[@killerbee6310]

Cool - thanks !!

[@Hooftimmer]

I have a question. How would passenger services play into these branch lines. What if this service would see a resurgence due to economic necessity? I could see this as a possibility and would class 1’s allow it? Thanks!

[@killerbee6310]

My thoughts....Depends on where the branches are. If they are in a metropolitan area, they could become candidates for hosting passenger service. But doubtful if they are out in rural areas. Class One's would probably not be too excited to lease a line to someone hosting passenger trains. If something happened, they would undoubtedly be brought into any lawsuits, having the deep pockets.

[@Hooftimmer]

@@killerbee6310 yes, and what a shame. Rural areas would probably need it the most. Could possibly be accomplished with something along the lines of the old Doodlebug engines and fewer cars. You are right though, it always comes down to cya because lawsuits. It would be so cool to have passenger services again. Thank you very much for answering, you are a wealth of practical railroading information!

[@larrythumper1559]

i checkout East Terminal Railway in Ohio

[@killerbee6310]

I did too. Enjoyed them. He had already started up the railroad when he began making videos whereas my angle is prior to starting up - how to get selected.

[@bradzeigler]

@@killerbee6310I believe his business plan was car storage, correct? I recall he specialized in car repair and fixing private track derails prior to the (very) short line.

[@Jleed989]

What if I want to start an excursion, scenic railroad on a seldom used line through the mountains. Do all of the same principles apply?

[@killerbee6310]

Depends on who the owner is and their outlook. They might want somebody that generates freight carloads. And in many cases they want to deal with known reputable entities. They also have undoubtedly had parties previously come to them with passenger train pitches - we certainly got them. First, see if you afford the insurance.

[@joeymartinez224]

You have to consider how much insurance is going to be, plus other expenses vs ticket sales for which is essentially the most expensive amusement ride you can offer. New tourist operations without any other income is a very railfan idea and not so much business savvy

[@Jleed989]

@@joeymartinez224it’s just a hypothetical. I enjoy those train rides wherever I find them

[@hamiltonsullivan6563]

Could you do one on locomotive leasing... I'm slowly making my way into this game and own a 45 ton center cab and an sw8. I have the the equipment but I'm stressing about how I make a pitch to a short line and making transport to sed operator. Who would maintain it once it's on their property? Could the equipment go on their insurance once it's on their property?

[@killerbee6310]

Thank you for the idea. However, I have to admit the ins and outs of locomotive leasing is not one of my areas of expertise. That said, I could always interview someone ....

[@hamiltonsullivan6563]

@@killerbee6310 would love a video on it if you could!

[@cdavid8139]

Transporting units on a Class I is VERY expensive. And if these units have friction bearing trucks they may not take them. The lease you have with the short line determines who maintains them. For one unit the short line typically wil provide required servicing but the owner provides the long term. The short line would have insurance on the unit but as an owner I would have it as well. The two units you have would be fare more attractive to an industry than a railroad

[@hamiltonsullivan6563]

@@cdavid8139 noted

[@cdavid8139]

@@hamiltonsullivan6563 Good luck. Used to own some SW12s. One we sold as-is-where-is and it had friction bearing trucks. Turned out to be cheaper to change the trucks out on site rather than having CSXT move them in a 'hospital' train

[@thomasrankin8506]

@killerbee how much is a shoreline railroad for sale in United States of America

[@killerbee6310]

Depends on a lot of factors. Depends on how the parties decide to value the line - if inactive, will probably be salvage value (NLV). If active, some agreed upon multiple of EBITDA might be the valuation. If two or more parties are interested, then high bidder. So hard to say.

[@daniellewis1789]

I hope you go into substantial depth on this, I'd listen to hours on hours of this.

[@killerbee6310]

I sense a sequel coming....(all I need is time....) Thank you for commenting.

[@Thunder_6278]

Without a firm customer base, any shortline will fail. Track condition notwithstanding.

[@killerbee6310]

Assume you have heard of the 100 revenue cars/mile "rule of thumb?"

[@joshuamuir7577]

If i had to start a short line, will it be possible to have EMD E and F units as my main source of power? I know silvis has alot of those units.

[@killerbee6310]

You can use anything that runs.

[@cdavid8139]

@@killerbee6310 The FRA may step in and frown on you switching with that type of unit. It is still done but it is rare to see them operating solo without another unit for the crew to ride on/in.

[@markh.6687]

One might be better off getting a reporting mark, then leasing an engine in your railroad's name to sub-lease it. Or something like that. No worries about who owns the tracks, or maintenance, since your "railroad in name only" doesn't actually own the locomotive, the leasing company you lease from does, and the railroad using your loco deals with the leasing company. I'm sure someone will point out how wrong or half-baked this is, but they said the same thing about time travel. I should know, I was there when it was invented. :)

[@killerbee6310]

Sounds like a lot of work....to what end?

[@markh.6687]

@@killerbee6310 Cheaper and quicker than trying to buy or lease the tracks.

[@btraindavidlemke312]

Business is one,but it all comes down to service,which they specialize in.Class 1s just want to haul it away.Thats it.We could go on with this,but thats what I see.

[@killerbee6310]

Like I said - what can you as a short line do differently that the Class one can't (or won't)

[@beeble2003]

Misheard the start of the video as "Hey, fellow former friends" and was wondering what I'd done to upset you! 🤣

[@killerbee6310]

Ya got me - and I gotta admit my ears hear it that way too sometimes. I hoped that everybody would hear it as it was meant. I'll try to annunciate better next video.

[@polyrhythmia]

The forbidden "f" word on Virtual Railcam chat... Even Walt Disney used that term.

[@andrewhatton1606]

If I had the money, I would put the old Lexington KY subdivision.

[@willyjimmy8881]

But to go where? There's no industry left on the line going east, even the track is gone and the land in many places is redeveloped. Lex will be lucky to keep Corman running the way things are going.

[@andrewhatton1606]

@@willyjimmy8881 lumber that's where we haul it to. Lexington and Morehead has lumber mills. Mt sterling has factory's. There's no east to west they haul containers to west Virginia from Georgetown to Charleston WV

[@roberthagberg5482]

Just like Montana Rail, BNSF took it back.

[@killerbee6310]

That is a trend now.

[@jamielacourse7578]

Why "foamer"? Do you folks foam at the mouth when you see railroad artifacts at the auction? That's all I've been able to come up with. Cheers

[@killerbee6310]

Yes indeed!! It is a bit of self-satire. Kind of like calling ourselves FRN's. RN being for RailNut. Some people get a little offended but I try not to take it all too seriously.

[@Dulaman107]

Step 1: get incorporated Step 2: don't get bought by G&W

[@killerbee6310]

although...some people eventually want to cash out.

[@Dulaman107]

@@killerbee6310 yeah, it was meant to be more of a joke, but it can end up being more profitable to sell

[@cdavid8139]

With what GWI pays....your wildest dream would be to have them buy you

[@Dulaman107]

@@cdavid8139 I was joking

[@danmathers141]

No sound after intro.

[@killerbee6310]

Hmmm - I cannot replicate this. I have audio, and also played the video on another persons and there was audio using theirs also.

[@patrickcross1571]

Linux TrainTips

[@robertbalazslorincz8218]

How to start a shortline tutorial:

[@Joe-d7m6k]

The audio seems a little quiet/ off .

[@killerbee6310]

I was wrestling with that issue but thought I had it loud enough. Thanks for the feedback.

[@ramblinman4197]

@@killerbee6310 While the volume varied a little bit here and there, it was plenty loud enough here. No issue understanding.

[@killerbee6310]

@@ramblinman4197 Whew - thanks !!

[@ThermiteBeGiants]

The audio is only coming through on the left channel, that’s the issue I think

[@Joe-pb3lx]

Obviously you have to have Big Bucks, a know how of what a line does and the ins and outs of maintenance and insurance......now i understand why the big name companies are running everything.......who needs the headache

[@killerbee6310]

You still have occasional little guys jumping into the game - a railfan living out a dream. Paul Didelius comes to mind. Sometimes a shipper buys a line out of self-defense.

[@marioxerxescastelancastro8019]

There is no audio on the right side. 👎

[@killerbee6310]

Ya, I was made aware of that earlier and I figured out what happened. But thank you for letting me know. If it wasn't for people letting me know I would not have known.

[@fordtruckguy1288]

It sounds hopeless- why bother ?

[@killerbee6310]

I would always tell people it wasn't for the faint of heart.

[@cjones3710]

Foamer eh. Ok.

[@killerbee6310]

You like da film, eh?

[@FOXYhogger]

It's as simple as that

[@killerbee6310]

Ya, no problem, eh? Just a lot of intestinal fortitude and a ton of money. And good people. And...oh, never mind....