How to understand speed & turn | Disc Golf lessons

[@ogdiscgolfer]

Just a reminder: I am a scatterbrained artist who is just trying to give folks info to help figure out this game. Most of my suggestions may be crap... test it for yourself - go throw some discs! Things I didn't include in the extremely complex process of throwing and flight dynamics: Spin, Weight, Humidity, Plastics, Nose angle, Moisture, OAT - Off Axis Torque, Above or below sea level, grip, lag, inks, dyes and foils, ground plane, footing, other wind directions, parting lines, rain, hail, smog, disc surface imperfections and laminar flow, and probably a hundred more items :D I welcome questions and comments and I endeavor to answer every single one as soon as I possibly can (unitl I get so famous I can't be bothered with any of you folks :D) but please remember I am not trying to be an expert and cover everything. I am just a 52 year old dad with a wife, 4 kids and two bouts of cancer who loves disc golf and has been playing it for almost 30 years... and I am just trying to talk to the camera about what is in my head... and some folks will be weird enough to understand my ramblings... and they are who I do these videos for. If however, my videos don't resonate with you... thank you for watching but don't get stressed out... life is way too short and there are way better channels out there for you. Peace my friends!

[@WolfPackDiscGolf]

Tremendous amount of good information. Great for reviewing, again.

[@ogdiscgolfer]

Thanks again!

[@shanebullion4172]

Awesome thoughts, Pete! Your passion comes through very clearly and that is incredible. Thanks for putting yourself out there and helping others!

[@ogdiscgolfer]

I appreciate that! Thanks so much for watching!

[@thediscgolfnoob]

you the man Pete Love the vids! I'm so glad I stumbled onto your channel. I've told all my friends!

[@ogdiscgolfer]

Awesome, thank you for taking time to comment! Be well my friend!

[@scbuckeye1267]

Great video, wishing you had spoken about weight and how it affects the disc. Should I go heavier or lighter etc...

[@ogdiscgolfer]

Yep, you are the second one to mention that... I have already added to the list... so many factors in flight :D Quick answer - lighter discs can get up to speed faster which will mean they are more flippy or susceptible to high-speed turn. (How much more they flip comes down to difference in weight and how fast you throw... etc.) That can either be a good thing or bad depending on the shot... they are also more affected by wind. Great for distance in a tailwind where the flippiness help moderate some of the stability, but harder into a headwind due to more of a tendency to roll over. Unfortunately everything is a compromise: so you have to decide if you prefer heavier discs for a little more predictability or lighter for distance and speed with a little more chance of getting squirrelly. (But, knowing about highspeed turn, you can actually throw the same disc in different weights for different scenarios... but my brain hurts even thinking about all the possiblities. :D) thanks so much for watching.

[@stevesimer6342]

I’d be very interested in a discussion on disc weight. I was told to throw slower speed discs….I’m 63 and throw about 280’…however, my longest throws are with a Tern, 12 speed disc, but at 156g weight….

[@ogdiscgolfer]

Steve... let me add that to the growing list of great topics. Short answer as best I understand it... yes slower speed discs are easier to throw and control, and light-weight disc are easier to get up to speed due to physics, but they are also more prone to the affects of wind and will be more flippy due to the highspeed turn. (They will be slightly faster than heavier discs so they will then want to flip a little more.) Hope that makes sense! We mature guys need to stick together! :D

[@turkeydip4986]

Hey pretty good video. It's actually the first video that I actually watched on flight rating of speed. I think where it gets lost is what does a speed rating of six actually mean in miles per hours. And same with the other numbers like the speed rating of 12. It would be nice to see a chart that shows mph for each speed rating just to give us an idea

[@ogdiscgolfer]

Great questiion, and when I think about it, I don't think I would be the right guy for that since I don't even know what speed I throw... I just throw the. :D Warning... I feel a long answer or thought coming on. I am not sure it could be done accurately due to the inconsistencies in they way each flight manufacturer decides their flight numbers, and then the variance of stabilities even within that disc mold. For example, I know some 7 speeds that are very forgiving and don't "need" as much speed as others. Couple that with the other factors of spin and nose angle, etc... and I am not sure if it would be misleading to say... a 9 speed wants to be thrown at 55mph, and an 11 speed at 65...because we each throw so differently. That is why I try to encourage that the flight numbers is the starting off point for understanding the flight of a disc, but even two pros throwing the disc at the same arm speed can have wildly different results. The first number is really more of a category marker of the general minimum speed needs, but it would be like saying a 5 iron in golf has an ideal striking speed of 70mph... but does that mean I have to work on hitting at exactly that speed, and if I can't should I not use a 5 iron until I get up to that speed? I generally think about a disc and its speed as this... if I can't get it to match it's ideal flight on a consistent basis then I am either throwing it wrong or I need to develop more speed in my throw to reach the disc's speed threshold. However, I throw and have thrown lot of faster discs as utility discs because I know I will never throw them fast enough to turn them over. I hope this long winded answer makes some sense. I just got back from 100 degree midday Ultimate and so my brain may need water and oxygen. At the end of the day, I think we get too caught up in the Speed number and keep trying to throw faster and further... but most of us mere mortals would be better off getting really good at the 1-9 speed discs and maybe push into the 11 speeds when we have maxxed out our 9's. You will know when you need to move up to faster discs, when the disc you currently have start turning over and it is not because you keep beating them up. Let me know if this helped or I missed the mark completely. I once dreamed of making a disc throwing robot to test and organize the flight numbers of the discs so that we could know exactly how the disc will fly, but there are some many factors and chaos in the plastics and manufacturing that it is almost impossible... or it will require someone much smarter than me. :D

[@stevesimer6342]

Great video, great explanation. I was one of the eight…😂

[@ogdiscgolfer]

Yes! I can count on the wiser older generations to read! :D Thanks so much for watching and taking the time to read and comment. Been a long week.

[@bakerby]

Lots to digest in the video. May take repeated viewings to take it all in, but I did have one aha moment. I thought my discs were just beaten in when they started turning more than they did previously. I have learned to ‘hyzer flip’ them, but these discs were not old. From what I gather, I was just throwing them harder? Interesting.

[@ogdiscgolfer]

Exactly! Either you discs are getting soft on you or you are getting better and applying more speed/torque! I have some buddies who are pretty new, and the same discs they swore were "overstable" are now flipping a little for them as they get more pop on the disc. Keep at it. Thanks for watching! Also, this video feels a little messy in that I jumped around a little bit (ADHD) so you will probably have to pause it and jump to another section just to stay sane. :D

[@BillFromAZ]

But....I can't drive 55.......😂

[@ogdiscgolfer]

All right Sammy.... :D

[@BillFromAZ]

I hope your kids didn't get hurt too bad and healed quickly. (yes, some of us do read the descriptions).

[@ogdiscgolfer]

Good on you my friend... Thanks for that. Yep, he is 17 and made of rubber, and he call still play Call of Duty, so the world is ok for him. I appreciate you taking the time to read and comment!

[@Comeatmeow]

I think it was called "the bus that couldnt slow down"

[@ogdiscgolfer]

Thank you for watching

[@Comeatmeow]

I think of each speed having 3 seperate gears for each mode of speed, 1st gear for understable, 2nd gear for stable, & 3rd gear for overstable.

[@stefandomagalski3722]

This information is valuable! Thanks Pete. You're a true gem

[@tedparish7645]

Thanks Pete, I like the way you think man, myself being over the half-century mark plus a few I like all the input I can get keep em coming

[@ogdiscgolfer]

Hey 50 is the new 30... except when it comes to the body that keeps falling apart! I started playing this game when I was 24, and I wish I understood the physics of the game back then like I do 28 years later. But, knowing this stuff and actually getting your body to do it are two entirely different things! Thank you so much for watching!

[@TheTorlock]

fantastically taught concepts. really appreciate you addressing the variables like elevation and wind impacts on our flight numbers. love this video. i've played for a long time and felt a lot of this without a ton of understanding (more magic than science) but this all helps me conceptualize shot shaping options so much better. i'm more excited to experiment in new ways with old discs...thanks again

[@ogdiscgolfer]

Thank you so much for taking the time to let me know that that's quite encouraging and I'm glad this hopefully helps

[@DeanOfStudents]

Thank you Pete, just starting throwing the disc last week! Majority of my drivers have been fading from the top right to the bottom left. Any tips on how to keep it more level before it flips?

[@ogdiscgolfer]

Boy, that is the big question isn't it. There are probably several things going on... and remember I am not an expert nor a scientist, so test everything I say for yourself and trash anything that is wrong. :D You asked about keeping level before it flips: and we tend to use a couple of terms for the same thing - flip, turn and understable, and they all kind of speak of the same thing... turning or rolling to the right instead of natural fading left back to the ground. I am thinking you meant fading instead of flipping which is usually the biggest issue with beginning throwers. If I misunderstood, let me know and ignore the rest of this. :D Why it crashes hard left (right hand back hand throw) 1. nose angle - one of the biggest issues starting out is how the disc is leaving the hand, and most of the time it is nose up (the front edge of the nose is higher than the back edge) so the disc wants to climb = more drag, slower speed which helps it to be more stable. (Ultimate players are used to throwing Frisbees with the nose up, so it is hard to make your body throw flatter) When the nose is pointed up, think of the disc climbing a hill... it will run out of steam and then fall harder off to the left (right hand back hand) to get back to the ground. Discs want to be thrown flatter and lower than most folks think... almost like trying to slide the disc across a table. 2. Stability of the disc - faster and more stable discs are harder to throw correctly especially in the beginning. So if you can't generate enough speed or your release angle is off, the extra stability of the disc will speed up the crashing process. Learning with less stable and slower discs will be easier and more forgiving, but they can also hide some form problems that only appear when you start throwing faster discs (like nose angle). So my advice after this long winded reply is to take your discs out and do field work. Make a target like I talk about in my video "Get better Faster" and set it up so that you are having to throw flatter to get the disc to go through the target. Your body will start to figure out how to manipulate each type of disc even though they are faster, slower or more stable. I don't like to give generic form advice, because each person's body and throwing style is different so I like to encourage getting out in the field and learning how to throw. The Golf course is not the best place to work on form. Heck, grab a buddy to double the fun and speed of practice: go to a field and put the target in the middle and make a game out of throwing it through the hoop or whatever. You will be amazed at how fast you start to understand the right way to throw... and then you will spend the rest of your life trying to perfect it. :D I hope that long winded answer helps. thanks so much for watching.

[@mikececil6672]

Great information thanks for spending the time and sharing your knowledge.

[@ogdiscgolfer]

Thank you for the kind words… I’m glad it was helpful.

[@mac22122003]

I had the ahh ha thank you so much Pete this was amazing and the flight number cheat code video.

[@ogdiscgolfer]

So glad this helped! Thanks for taking the time to comment!

[@steveolie985]

Great Video that explains this better than other videos I have watched.

[@ogdiscgolfer]

Please tell me this isn't the first video you have watched! :D (bad joke sorry!) I am so glad this makes sense to you and I really appreciate you taking the time to comment!

[@brendanbutler1946]

What about OAT and how that affects turn? Because many beginners throw with OAT, I think it is very relevant. Because they will wonder why their discs get more over stable the better they get and be very confused, especially knowing what you have just told.

[@ogdiscgolfer]

Brendan, Thank you for your question. I am responding with a smile on my face because I knew this and other questions would arise. I taught Photoshop and photography classes for years, and no matter what or how well I taught a subject there was always someone reminding me of things I failed to cover. It is just the nature of things when you start discussing technical issues. I stated right at the beginning of the video that I am not a scientist nor an engineer and as much as I would like to both understand and then cover every part of the disc golf flight in one video I cannot possibly do that. There is always a compromise between not enough information and too much, especially on a KZbin video that is already over 20 minutes and the average time someone sticks with a video is under 4 minutes. The list of things I didn’t cover in the video is longer than the things I did, and that is just the subjects I have a slight inkling about with the very real possibility that I am an idiot :D. There are multitudes of folks who know more about this stuff than I do, and I hope they will fill in the gaps with videos of there own… I am just a guy trying to point out a few things “As I see it”. I think I mentioned that a few times. If you feel I did a poor job or misguided folks with my information, I am sorry and I invite you to create a video to clarify things. I am not trying to be defensive, but I literally said that my job was not to be perfect, but rather too inspire and have folks work this out for themselves. It is the very last thing I wrote at the end of this video. I am thrilled that you understand OAT… to be honest I had to look up what that meant before I could respond, and that is ok. I am not trying to position myself as a expert, but rather an Old Goat who loves disc golf and who wants to help folks enjoy the game. I will definitely add OAT to the ever growing list of topics that folks are telling me I need to cover and it may show up in a future video. I really do appreciate you watching and for your question. Take care.

[@connormiller536]

OAT is the extra speed you get on your shots after you have your morning oatmeal. Come on Pete… everyone knows that…

[@ThePlanetNamik]

great advice! love the content

[@ogdiscgolfer]

So glad! I appreciate you watching!

[@lecosmique]

Nice compliment to your 'cheat sheet' video! This was a great explanation of some of these concepts. One of the issues troubling me is not really knowing my discs yet, combined with not throwing consistently (I assume). The latter is inhibiting the former. Any tips for how to surmount that dilemma? Perhaps a future video idea? Thanks again for making and sharing these videos.

[@ogdiscgolfer]

Thanks so much for the kind words. I have two videos that can help with consistency. One is older kzbin.info/www/bejne/lZvch5-DaNiLgqs (using a baseball practice area and a target) and then the one I did fairly recently "How to get better faster" using a target to really show whether you are hitting your marks. I think having a target to give instant feedback on each throw will help your practice and give your body better feedback when you throw the right shot. I hope that helps. i have a couple of other ideas that may turn into videos in the future. Let me know if my response isn't what you were asking and I will try again. Thanks

[@lecosmique]

@@ogdiscgolfer Thanks for the reply and the referrals! You are spot on about practicing with many of the same or similar disc. I have been doing that a bit with putters, but will be extending that out to mids, that might give a bit more inference as to what might be going on with my release and nose angle.

[@ogdiscgolfer]

@@lecosmique yes definitely add some mids, and then throw in a faster disc every once in a while because it won't hide angle problems as easily. You are looking for that low smooth glide versus a rise and then a hard crash. Good throwing!

[@davelopez9161]

The flight of a disc is acting upon by three forces. LIft, drag, and gravity. Because the disc is spinning it acts like a gyroscope (all discs). Turn and fade are caused by gyroscopic precession. When Lift is the larger force, turn occurs. When gravity is the larger force, fade occurs. When gravity and lift are equal, glide occurs. SPEED is an index to a set of three velocity phases. Phase 1: The high velocity creates higher lift and causes TURN. Phase 2: The mid velocity balances lift and gravity and causes GLIDE. Phase 3: The low velocity causes higher gravity and causes FADE. The rate at which the velocity declines is controlled by drag. I believe that GLIDE is most affected by drag. For a flat angle and trajectory: So, if a disc has a high velocity of 60mph, and mid of 50mph, and a low of 40mph, but the golfer is only able to achieve 40mph, that disc will not turn. The flight will start at the beginning of phase 3 and the disc will just fade out. The big problem is that nobody knows what those velocities are. Not even the manufacturers. They are derived through a suggestive empirical process. They just go outside and throw them and decide what the numbers should be based on how "they" throw them. There is no universal standard. So a TURN of -2 at DGA (130FT elevation) could be a a turn of 0 at Innova (925ft innovation) .

[@ogdiscgolfer]

Dave... I think I would both love hanging out with you while also feeling not so smart around you. :D I have wanted to make a disc throwing robot for years to standardize disc testing, but a couple of things held me back... and yes Laziness has to be front and center :D But, seriously one of the reasons I think disc companies don't employ something like the Iron Byron robot in ball golf is because the amount of variance in the plastics and cooling even within a single run. There is no way for them to get the parameters close enough to be able to produce an exact run of discs that fly the same way (as far as I know... if someone does, then watch out! Big game changer). So even though the semi-engineer in me sketched out on paper an entire in-door testing facility with humidity and wind direction control, I just don't think it would work well enough to standardize flight numbers. But if you know some folks who can make it happen... count me it. Ps. I even proposed the robot throwing project idea to @smartereveryday, but I am sure he either didn't even see it or laughed and moved on to Quantum Mechanics. :D Thank you so much for watching and spending the time adding to the conversation. This game is so simple and yet so very complex. :D

[@davelopez9161]

@@ogdiscgolfer Your right about the variance in manufacturing of plastic discs. But, that's a whole different discussion. I've read that the iron byron was proved to be inaccurate due to wear and tear of a mechanical device. I think Simon has lead on that MVP is building a throwing machine. But, I think it's just more of their marketing nonsense. If they really wanted to prove their discs fly farther, they should head out to the desert and prove it. My thought has always been to build a wind tunnel suitable for measuring lift and drag of a disc. Some folks have attempted computer simulation but I don't think that is adequate. Oh, and, I'm not thinking about a large wind tunnel where a person throws the disc. Just big enough to hold a disc supported on a spindle that rotates the disc and is able to be tilted to adjust nose angle. If the spindle was driven by a gimble then turn and fade could be measured as well. The air speed and spin rate could be adjusted to measure stability at different parameters. The PDGA should build a test lab where all discs are analyzed for lift, drag, turn, and fade, before they are certified.

[@davelopez9161]

@@ogdiscgolfer I was researching why a disc turns and fades and ran across a series of videos made by a physics professor/disc golfer. And now it makes sense. Here is episode 6 where he is discussing MOI but in episode 8 they put it all together showing how gyroscopic precession affects the disc flight. kzbin.info/www/bejne/iH-2qKyDe6aJgck

[@ogdiscgolfer]

Great! Now you have given me another rabbit hole of videos to watch… I haven’t even watched it and already subscribed. But, my head hurts from too much thinking today so I will check it out tomorrow… or more than likely midnight when I should be sleeping. Thanks for the link.

[@zafotbeeb]

Good food for thought. Thanks

[@ogdiscgolfer]

So nice of you to say. Thank you for watching and commenting!

[@bvwol]

Wow! Very down to earth explanation of how flight path is affected by disc speed/release speed/etc. Had a couple of aha moments. Also liked example of tunnel shot and how release speed afftects flight path. Concise and to the point. Thanks.

[@ogdiscgolfer]

So glad that made sense! Thank for taking the time to watch and comment. Each of those little Aha moments help… keep throwing!