How Tolkien Recycled Frodo's Story Arc for Theoden

When we think of Theoden as a parallel, we often think of him as the flip side of Denethor, which is perfectly apt. But it turns out his actual story and decisions are much more parallel to the protagonist of the story, which is perhaps what you would least expect.
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[@gandalfolorin-kl3pj]

Melon Geek: Only you would come up with a topic that at first glance appears to be boring. Yet in your description of the myriad facets of the parallels between Frodo and Theoden you take me back again to Middle Earth. I see again my namesake giving his wise advice to Frodo and to Theoden. I see them both on their journeys, each reaching his destination in similar manner. I am there weeping when Theoden dies, and I am there at the Havens weeping when Frodo departs. Now I need a hug, my dear melon. Keep up the great work you do. Namarie.

[@randomvideos786]

Petition for Tolkien Lore to Review/Rant about Rings of Power season 2. Tolkien Lore, I know you said you wouldn't watch season 2 but, my brother and I watched it because it was a so bad it's entertaining type of thing. We had some good laughs and we were thinking the whole time we so wish you would do some videos about it. I know it's a long shot, but would you at least consider it?

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Nope. Sorry to disappoint but I refuse to dignify it with my attention, or benefit Amazon with improved statistics.

[@randomvideos786]

​@@TolkienLorePodcastThat is disappointing, but I respect your decision. Thank you for taking the time to answer, and keep up the great content.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

I don't think this would lead anywhere positive or be worth the effort. There is already at least one LotR channel that dipped significantly in quality because the guy behind it shifted his output from lore content to lackluster and spiteful reviews of the show - with a tone as if this show was deliberately created to insult people. What a pretentious notion of said reviewer. I can understand to an extent why you would watch such videos, but making reviews for something you despise in the first place is a waste of energy and time for channels like Tolkien Lore. Not to mention all the channels that popped up riding on the wave of negativity - people who tell you in their limited ways how bad this show is, only to cynically attempt to make a financial gain from it. Hatewatching is a bizarre and inconsequential action if you ask me, but don't worry, you'll find plenty of it on youtube.

[@FatphobeforLife]

I thought of another parallel and connection as well: Theoden spares Grima (even after he proves he is a traitor and commits an act of pretty serious lese majeste) ; Frodo spares Saruman-. Both mercies don't matter in the end, both evildoers get their comeuppance. But both Theoden and Frodo display a true quality of mercy, AND the recipients of that mercy are both still punished by, presumably, God (Eru). I'm thinking this ties into the Prof's strong Christian belief not just in mercy, but also in all beings, or at least the better among us, needing to have the humility of leaving some judgements to God. The connection in the above is obviously that Saruman and Grima are not just evildoers, but a pair who work together. And then there is the parallel of Grima and Gollum. Frodo and Theoden have similar conversations with these two, and give them just about the exact same choice to prove fidelity and trustworthiness, but in neither case do they get to just run around freely, either in Rohan or Emyn Muil. Dang it's just like you say, once you see it, you can't unsee it! Great and thoughtful work as always!

[@beregond.]

Thanks for this one! It was something I had not thought of, but now that you have shown it, it cannot be unseen, as you said.

[@blakewinter1657]

While everyone notices how the movies changed Faramir for the worse, they also changed Theoden for the worse, and almost as badly. And Gandalf. While I like the movies as movies, there are a lot of changes that were really not necessary and that really changed the characters and their story arcs.

[@fireimperishable]

Re "The Hero's Journey", Joesph Campbell usually gets credit for the idea. I highly recommend Bill Moyer's interview with Campbell. (See PBS). Also, there is a Wikipedia article on the topic The Hero's Journey.

[@hglundahl]

I did enjoy it, I actually hadn't noticed, it went under my radar.

[@ragnvald420]

Tolkien had what we call, in our age, BDE😂 he put down the hammer

[@iainmc9859]

Joseph Campbell 'The Hero with a Thousand Faces'. Although its not a long book it feels like an English Literature students dissertation stretched out in to book length. Finding any decent 2000 word summary online will save you several afternoons reading ... and re-reading as it meanders so badly.

[@TheMangoDeluxe]

Ah but did you know that fatty bolger and the mouth of Sauron are also on the same arc

[@nochsta]

So if Frodo and Theoden are parallels, and Sam and Merry are parallels as their companions/assistants, does that make Sméagol and Eowyn parallels too? Frodo attempts to destroy the ring, and fails, but Sméagol “takes over” and does it for him (albeit unintentionally). Theoden challenges the Witch-King, but fails to defeat him, so Eowyn takes over to do it for him.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Theoden doesn’t really challenge the Witch King though. He gets attacked by the Witch King out of the sky.

[@anarionelendili8961]

(I misremembered and was wrong!) Very much a nitpick, but I don't recall Frodo going back to Rivendell. He meets Bilbo when they are leaving. But I admit that I didn't check the epilogue so there could have been a line or two.

[@beregond.]

No need to go to the epilogue. The return to Rivendell is in the last few pages of the chapter "Many Partings". This is, among other things, when Bilbo hands his book on to Frodo to complete.

[@anarionelendili8961]

@@beregond. Thanks! I had forgotten that they swung by Rivendell before returning to the Shire and my mind was squarely on post-Scouring. Now that you reminded me, it was the time Bilbo asked to see the One Ring again.

[@FatphobeforLife]

I was hoping you could clear something up for me that has always puzzled me. As you say, I always assumed that Gandalf was telling Theoden about Frodo taking the One Ring to Mordor to be destroyed in that secret conversation. But what then was Gandalf referring (and this the reader is privy to) when he said to Theoden right after that conversation: "Not indeed that prize which Saruman desires above all else, but at the least two members of my Company, sharers of a secret hope, of which even to you, lord, I cannot yet speak openly. Dare you think of what they might now be suffering, or what Saruman might now have learned to our destruction?'" It sure sounds like he is referring to the Ring and the quest to destroy it here, as what else could he be talking about when he says "not indeed that prize which Saruman desires most"? But if he was referring to the Ring here, then what the heck did he tell Theoden earlier that gave him any hope? This has always confused me.

[@pwmiles56]

Surely the "secret hope" is simply that Frodo will destroy the Ring. True, Gandalf makes the hope a bit less secret by mentioning it twice in open company. He is signalling that the King has a good reason to go to war. It's feudal times, the Rohirrim love their King and will follow him, as long as they believe he is sure in his purpose.

[@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ]

I assume that since here Gandalf speaks openly (there are Eomer and Eowyn at least, and maybe some other people), he speaks in hints. Also we do not know how much does Gandalf reveal to Theoden previously.

[@FatphobeforLife]

@@pwmiles56 But if THAT is the secret hope that he CAN'T tell Theoden (that they have the Ring and have set in motion a plan to destroy it), then WHAT was it he told Theoden out of everyone's earshot including our own that gave Theoden hope?

[@pwmiles56]

@@FatphobeforLife Gandalf told Theoden all about the Ring, but for his ears only. It's top secret because Sauron mustn't get wind of the plan, but Theoden as ruler must be in on the secret.

[@FatphobeforLife]

@@pwmiles56 Right--but the "secret hope" is something he says he can't even tell Theoden. What is that then? Because earlier Gandalf says: "'Verily,' said Gandalf, now in a loud voice, keen and clear, 'that way lies our hope, where sits our greatest fear. Doom hangs still on a thread. Yet hope there is still, if we can but stand unconquered for a little while.' Which I think we both agree HAS to be about Frodo and the Ring. So, again, what is the secret hope he can't e3ven reveal to Theoden?