How Valve is Profiting from Steam's Back-Door Casinos

[@Vailskibum]

I used to be obsessed with the TF2 economy, even doing some minor "spycrab gambling" in trade servers. I'm just happy I never cared about CS:GO or tried any of these sites.

[@squonchgames]

Amen, I still hate that industry part of valve

[@Ozblu3y]

yeah I remember being on trade servers and being interested in trading and being with other people, getting into looking at rarity of things, but I am so glad I did not care about that stuff and just had more fun walking around as a spycrab or sniping people and chatting on the servers than doing actual trades. I just went in for what I wanted and then left.

[@Blazik3n99]

For anyone unaware, the spy's disguise kit as a 10% chance of giving you a spycrab animation when you taunt, instead of the usual animation. The idea is that two people put their bet into a pot and spam the taunt button, the first person to get the spycrab taunt three times loses.

[@Ozblu3y]

@@Blazik3n99 oh that is sad

[@WatcherCobalt]

What a pleasant surprise to see you here! Gambling is awful though yeah

[@DouglasWatt]

Used to work for a mobile games company, and every day I went in to the office was a constant struggle with my bosses to not make the game I was planning for more exploitative. It reached the point where, despite the game being a minor financial success, I was asked to leave because I had been so unwilling to push gambling behavior on our users & that they felt the next project I was working on wouldn't have enough opportunities to upsell. I happily agreed to leave, and I will never work on a "freemium" experiences ever again.

[@AwesomeArgonanth]

It's so weird as someone who was born in the early 90's I grew up and experienced games before all this was a huge issue. I still have the mentality of "LOL you actually spent money on horse armor" when I see people with expensive skins, but it's become so normalized now that I'm always seen as the weird one.

[@IAm-zo1bo]

You're not gonna get mocked by most people in csgo or tf2, maybe some but most wont

[@salty_slug]

@@AfutureV I've only every done micro-transactions to support games I enjoy/have played a lot of, but I definitely limit myself to average game prices, I'd buy a season pass, but never a $100 Valorant skin pack for example.

[@Ramonatho]

@@AfutureV it can be tempting, not gonna lie. When you can only get a gold gun or something like that by paying for it, it used to be fine when it was five dollars for all the new stuff. Now it's just five dollars for one thing, but if you really want it that badly, everything else starts to fade away.

[@gManGabe]

One of my classmates fiercely defended fifa lootboxes to me for about an hour while I tried to argue that games before this age of monetization would actually give him the content for free...

[@Appletank8]

Do note that at this point, Valve is facilitating the transformation of in game items into IRL money. It doesn't matter whether you like the item or not, only that you can trade it or gamble it for more money. A $500 chip on a poker table doesn't cost $500 to make, but everyone in the casino agrees that it represents $500 and can be traded for $500.

[@Akaikami]

I am a veteran of the video game industry (12+ years), I have friends that have/had worked for Valve. I LOVE and APPRECIATE that fact that you're doing a deep dive on potentially unethical business practices in my industry. I did not make art for over a decade for video games for users to get addicted to, I did it to provide a fulfilling sense of challenge, enjoyment, wonder, and inspiration, one that I had as a kid back in the 90s and 2000s when these horrible mechanics did not exist. You bought a game, you owned it, you could beat it and get all the content that developers like me would create from a flat fee. I hate to sound like a boomer but it really was the "good ol days" for fans and consumers of video games, and honestly there's no reason we cannot go back there. Luckily independent (indie) developers are being way more conscious about ethics and keeping a reasonable cost for quality content. Corporate developers could really start taking a page out of independent developers of these days, it's unfortunate they choose greed over long term positive social, cultural, and economic influence and impact.

[@strangeWaters]

That's capitalism

[@namegoeshere197]

There is a reason. Most games now days are online multi-player games and the user expect the game to be constantly updated for years after launch. Dev need a constantly cash flow to make this profitable. I agree that there need to be another way of do this. But you cannot expect to pay once for a multi-player game that will have online server's+ updates for years after launch

[@Akaikami]

@@namegoeshere197 This is what they want you to think, to justify microtransactional economies. There's already a better way to do this, there's a little thing called dedicated and independent servers that older games (and some modern ones) use to employ, allowing users to host their own servers, and even modify/update/mod the game to their liking. This is literally how Counter-Strike and many Half-Life mods became hits. I think most people underestimate the amount of money these companies make off of initial sales. Also one of the unfortunate side effects of not allowing users to create their own servers is that AAA games can literally just get shut down and become unplayable forever. That means that art that I worked on for 2-3 years on a video game will never be seen or enjoyed by another person ever again because the company was too stubborn to allow users to host servers on their own. I think if Valve focused more on user generated content that was more like expansions, DLCs, or mods of their games it would have a much better impact than these small pieces of UGC (Dota 2 Workshop, TF2 Workshop, CS Workshop) that glorify gambling or microtransactions. They are operating out of pure greed unfortunately, there's nothing neutral about offering an API into your gambling scheme disguised as a "game economy".

[@Shamino1]

@@namegoeshere197 This might sound crazy, but after Quake 3 Arena came out, hundreds of thousands of people still played Quake 2 online. When Battlefield Bad Company came out, people still wanted to play on Battlefield 2 servers. If the sequel to a game comes out, and it sucks, you always should have the previous game's multiplayer experience to fall back on. But now companies want to own absolutely every aspect of the gameloop: You can't run your own servers, you can't do LAN, you MUST sign up for their third party DRM online service, and they can and WILL delete all your data without any warning or justification.

[@NeroVingian40]

@@Akaikami player-hosted servers allows easier cheating. But I do agree that once a game stopped getting support from the devs, they should just allow the game to be hosted by the players, for preservation reasons.

[@platinus12]

Man, the incredibly pained look on Quinn's face as he listens to person after person talk about how these sites affected them speaks for itself.

[@WeltallZero]

I had to skip that part myself. It was far too heartbreaking. :(

[@Holsp]

He looks more tired than overtaken with emotions

[@thatbloomer5642]

We need to add into account that gambling is an addiction, similar to smoking for example. So, even if they knew it was wrong their brains are hardwired TO gamble. It's such a sad situation really. These people needs proper help and these casinos are essentially exploiting their addiction.

[@angelerror4086]

@@sparklesparklesparkle6318 people's minds work in different ways, for example gamblers are addicted to the thrills and the prospect of "hitting it big", heroin is a different kind of pleasure, they're both addictive sure but you can't really compare them and say that one is easier compared to the other

[@spiffybumbleteeth]

The video and journalism is superb as always, but watching Quinns just die inside in outfit after outfit showing just how many interviews and how many days/weeks/months this took was incredible.

[@sushi4864]

I'm glad you've been investigating this. My little brother and I used to be heavy betters on these kinds of sites while we were 12 and 15 respectively, added up spending a few hundreds of euros on these sorts of sites (and lootboxes in different games etc.) and it RUINED our brains. Both of us still struggle with gambling now, 6 years later. We're lucky we have parents who understand the harm addiction can do as one of our uncles also had a heavy gambling addiction since he was young (who is now very much into stocks and crypto) until he messed with the wrong people. If he didn't get caught putting all of our relatively low amount of savings into our steam accounts, my brother and I would still be betting all of our money on these things as it is still so normalized. I still struggle with my spending habits, especially in games. Almost every single game released in the last 10 years that I've been struggling with this has had some kind of lootbox system and microtransactions. It doesn't help that I have both ADHD and the addiction gene, so having to choose between a dopamine rush NOW or having to wait until I get one for free is one of the hardest battles I fight daily. Luckily I live in the Netherlands where many lootboxes and similar ways of gambling in games are now banned, but it's still way too easy to just turn on my VPN and just hop to a different IP where I can get that dopamine hit anyway.

[@rahmatramadhan9874]

Hey bro, you got this. It's hard, it's always there, but I have faith in you. Go kick gambling addiction's ass.

[@Mikowmer]

@@jordan4673 That next big win never comes. There are things I want to say to you that really aren't appropriate for this comment section, so you'll just have to imagine it yourself.

[@jordan4673]

@@Mikowmer ur welcome

[@fltfathin]

i suggest to learn coding/ programming and make your own lootbox/ gambling thingy and i'm sure after you kinda understand their end of the "bet" you'll never be a gambler again at least not electronics ones.

[@orionfell]

stop playing freemium games that present these options to you. there are thousands of games that you can play and enjoy without lootboxes. "yeah im trying to quit crack but i really like hanging out with my friends at the crackhouse and when i see the crack there its hard not to smoke it"

[@TimEd.o7o7]

"less than beneficial neural pathways" damn listening to the hooks gambling addiction left in these people's lives is depressing stuff. And the most depressing bit about this is that these responses are the ones who were lucky enough to realize the existence of this addiction they fell into in the first place.

[@PropheticShadeZ]

Gambling is one of the worst influences on society. You won't understand until you see a local casino at 4 am

[@john_smith_john]

This is really true though - this kind of thing leaves a half-permanent stain on your physical brain that only *weakens* over time by not doing it rather than completely going away [at least not for several decades]

[@mogaming163]

I’m not proud of this but I was commissioned to code a spinning animation, the reward like you said was predetermined which is normal for security and user-friendliness (you disconnect, leave, computer shutdown, etc and it still saves) but the “what your almost get” in my code was modifiable (the client requested this), often times the use-cases they asked for had the normal percentages for the reward but the spin/“what you almost got” use almost entirely equal percentages with the rarest being around 4x more common

[@KalafinaBTS]

:O That makes a lot of sense, thank you for the insight!

[@cramyt]

I feel like this is a given, of course people will play more if they get baited out by the machine. personally I only buy and sell skins for profit and will never gamble on one of these sites - another reason: you never know what kind of unfair odds these sites have and are lying to you about

[@MrLukhut1]

Its just work my man. I wouldnt blame yourself for these issues. If you wouldnt have done it someone else would have, these websites are predatory but in my opinion at least, if they required an ID to gamble then it would be fine.. its only an issue because children can do it.

[@samwu1836]

But members of the NSDAP genuinely believed all they were doing was work. One’s conscience needs to be honestly confronted and heeded.

[@freyjathehealer5559]

Thanks for sharing your story. It’s good for people to be reminded that things are more rigged than they even appear.

[@anichebhargav]

You guys make some of the best journalistic deep dive content out there. Honestly, no other channel that puts out videos quite like yours.

[@grundlehunter69]

​@@themore-you-know why be transphobic about it? just say they.

[@Rosmarus_Odobenus]

Let's not get up in arms here @A T and @MT Foxtrot. They initially went by any pronouns until settling on they/them january last year. Not being up-to-date doesn't make you a transphobe and implying so waters down the debate and distracts from relevant aggressions towards non-binary people. On the other hand, correcting someone on their use of pronouns is hardly that big a deal, @A T. You sound like you've been the victim of a war-crime.

[@AusSkiller]

No Clip also does a similar level of investigation, though it is usually less about issues in the industry and more about the development of a particular game/series.

[@anichebhargav]

@@AusSkiller Yeah those guys are top tier as well, but yes, their content is more documentaries than journalism.

[@dane1382]

ironic

[@Reditect]

As pointed out later in the video, Steam and Roblox have some of the exact same issues. Wallet funds v.s. robux, trading/selling items v.s. limiteds, the black-market websites, and the legal issues behind children gambling. This issue is bigger than just Valve, it's a legal thing that should be brought to the attention of governments. As also said, Valve wouldn't take down those sites themselves as it would ultimately hurt them. This means it's got to be the law that forces them. The government getting involved with the internet is a scary thing. Too much control is bad, but so is little to no control.

[@TeleportRush]

Yeah on one hand I like the valve ethos on not enforcing things like white lists on their ID, but I don't buy it for this problem. The truth is, Valve could push updates to these games that shut down all gambling by removing the gambling aspects of these games, removing skins and making it so all players just start out with access to all these skins and going back to the drawing board on how to make money off of counterstrike.

[@fltfathin]

@@TeleportRush the primary gambling is kinda acceptable nowadays, but the tradeable part is why i don't buy in NFT and stuff. even if you can profit from selling the skins it won't be you who make the most money in the "game" if anything you lose money.

[@TeleportRush]

@@fltfathin First party gambling shouldn't be acceptable nowadays, but yeah the fact that the items are on the steam inventory is the reason third party gambling can even happen, and valve could shut that down in whatever method they choose as long as it ends the ability to trade these items.

[@lonelysheepling]

There definitely needs to be regulation around this stuff, it’s annoying that regulation moves at a snails pace, we likely won’t see any legal development for awhile

[@Magmadu100]

Thank you for this. I had no idea this was a growing issue, as I stopped seeing discussion about it after the 2016 incident. It's terrifying to see how big it's gotten since then...

[@YinnYangGMD]

crazen🤨

[@maxhill9254]

+1

[@koghs]

Don't say stupid things

[@tsu08761e]

@@koghs they didnt

[@abicto]

@@YinnYangGMD you own it babe

[@EmApex]

Small aside on the point about CSGO's player base skyrocketing after skins were added - this is true, however it's also worth noting that the first major happened just a few months later which was noticeably more impactful. Between July and August (Arms Deal was in August), the game only gained 5000 average players (20,000 to 25,000). From August to November, this went from 25,000 to 29,000 - the first major was right at the end of November, and sure enough the average player count went from 29,000 players in November to 46,000 players in December. If you match up the points where the player base suddenly grows with the dates of the majors, they're pretty much exact (minus the obvious growth over time). That's not to say skins didn't have a lasting impact, the game definitely received massive growth years later because of the skin economy, but right at the very beginning I don't think it was anywhere near as important as many people (mostly traders) like to make it out to be.

[@arttukurttila7689]

I would argue that it was important for Valve to get the skins in game before the major just so that viewers could get to see stars running with rare skins.

[@LutraLovegood]

There's a GDC with a Valve employee who talks about the introduction of skins in CSGO, and tl dr their gambling became a lot more popular once they started making silly, goofy, kid friendly skins that looked more like toys instead of the realistic military camo and what not they made before. I wonder why.

[@SuperDuperSeb]

Cope lil bro before skins csgo was just cs source but more shit

[@EmApex]

@@SuperDuperSeb Yeah but that has nothing to do with skins, they were making gameplay changes the whole time lmao

[@SuperDuperSeb]

@@EmApex If they didn't add skins csgo wouldn't be as popular and profitable as it is now... gameplay doesn't matter

[@boxhead6177]

Valve is really difficult to even talk to, even if your the law. The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC - often called A Triple C) a legal authority which prosecutes trade and business law had to write a press release to tell Valve they were being sued in 2014, cause ACCC couldn't get them to answer the phone, respond to an email or answer the door. Valve found out they were beeing sued by reading an article in Kotaku. Then promptly lost the case. (which is why I wish TMartin was prosecuted in Australia)

[@hambor12]

isn't that why like the TF2 adult swim show that Expiration Date was meant as a pilot for never surfaced? Because Valve's infamous inability to work with others long-term left AS hanging for months until they canned the project altogether silently

[@elsienova4269]

@@hambor12 Yup. That and why the HL2 collaborations ended. Half Life 2 has around 4 collaborations projects with studios like Arkane, EA, WB and more where they had them make their own spin on the HL2 formula, the most infamous one being the Ravenholm expansion Arakane worked on. Gabe literally got tired of Valve making Half Life stuff and despite them doing zero actual work on any of the projects they literally just called every single studio and told them to instantly cancel with without any reason given. Arkane's indev version of Ravenhold was close to completion and to this day they make new devs at the company play it.

[@Baba-yv6ml]

@@hambor12 That sucks so hard

[@Garbageman28]

@@elsienova4269valve do cool stuff but they sound incredibly shitty to work with

[@Torgan454]

@@elsienova4269 well i guess its time to apply to work at arcane

[@MrKyle700]

I always had a really bad feeling about gambling in these games but im genuinely shocked at the level its reached. I substitute teach and im now considering doing a lesson on gambing if there is spare time, i don't think anyone really tells kids about gambling or its woes.

[@LtChamberz]

Great idea. I think it's specifically important to teach them about how their brains won't finish maturing until 25 and they can permanently damage it by using easy-dopamine buttons that are addictive. And when they get addicted to something that costs money, it can be life ruining.

[@lyingpancake95]

I remember the CS:GO Lotto story like it was yesterday, watching Jim Sterling videos on the subject. It's truly a shame that it's still a widespread problem.

[@SurikatMeerkat]

I've worked in the gambling industry for almost a decade. This is way worse than what the gambling industry is doing. Mostly because it's selling to underage. Morally bankrupt.

[@GamingWithHajimemes]

I'd say that all gambling is morally unstable but I very much agree and love to hear that someone from your standing can give their take on this stupid shit as well.

[@jcchurch]

I'm so proud to be a Patreon supporter of this channel. I love the work you do.

[@heikothedwarf]

+1

[@Rhaifha]

All those testimonies sound so familiar. As a young teenager, I started spending money on GaiaOnline of all places, and the RNG lootboxes really got me hooked. I then went from game to game over the years, spending more money than I should on RNG lootboxes, but nothing too problematic (the benefit of the teenage side job and few to no expenses). Until I was in a situation where I was an adult, horribly depressed and had access to several games with big RNG loot boxes.. I ended up with 1700 euros in creditcard debt before I got help. And like, I'm *far* from the worst example. I can still notice how I'm quite sensitive to the quick dopamine fix of RNG wins. No matter how "innocuous".

[@averagemordhauplayer4821]

Love how up front this channel is with the facts and their reporting, keep up the great work!

[@peterkrausa4100]

Exceptional journalism, your videos shine light on many ugly topics in an industry all too eager to write them off. I can’t wait for the next part in this series

[@exotex5841]

Thank you so much for covering the topic! I had a gambling addcition (a few years back) when I was 14 and spent about 800 Euros on CSGO and on third party CSGO sites, I am really glad that someone is finally bringing this topic back into focus!

[@totallynotsam584]

800 euros is rookie numbers

[@exotex5841]

@@totallynotsam584 Yes i heard of much more, it was a ton of money for my 13 year old self. It was all the money I had saved in the last 2 years and I even borrowed some money from my parents(without them knowing what it was for)

[@ForOne814]

I was addicted to CSGO gambling at the same age as well. Never had to ask my parents for money to buy video games then, cuz I was good at it, lol. Thankfully my mother taught me how to gamble and evaluate risks in general from a very young age.

[@michael2592]

Glad I didn't win anything I bet if I did I'd be addicted

[@ratholin]

You guys take the time to really dig into a story, attempting to educate instead of manipulate emotions. I really appreciate that.

[@saulgoodguy1840]

In 10th grade I remember losing like 800 bucks I had saved up over a year or two because of gambling cs skins. Im honestly glad I learned the lesson to not gamble when losing 800 bucks was a lot to me instead of when losing my house would be a lot for me

[@gameXylinder]

That makes sense, it's an expensive lesson but at least you learned something from it. I did a similar thing, backing someone on a kickstarter once. Nothing came of it, project was silently shut down. In hindsight I realised there were some major red flags, but I remember even then being relieved that it hadn't been more money and also happy that I learned to pay more attention and be more careful in the future.

[@_holy__ghost]

agreed. i 'accidentally' (an intentional act done out of ignorance) spent hundreds of dollars on league of legends skins when i was 13. it wasn't even gambling, but it was through daddy's credit card and at the time i couldn't understand that there was 'real' (ie. paper) money on that thing. to a child it just seemed like an infinite money machine. the reaction from my parents was so visceral i felt awful for days afterwards, thinking i bankrupted my family. im glad they didn't pretend it wasn't a big deal because i definitely needed that wake up call. to this day im very careful with my purchases and live as frugal as i can while still allowing myself the occasional luxury.

[@Owesomasaurus]

So really what you're saying is that skin betting taught you a valuable life lesson and therefore is a good thing that needs to be protected. /s just in case

[@Raulxz]

@@_holy__ghost how dumb did you have to be to not know debit cards have real money even at 13, it sounds like you were extremely spoiled if you didnt understand the value of money

[@_holy__ghost]

@@Raulxz first of all, a CREDIT card doesnt have 'money on it'. second of all, i understood the concept of money, i just didnt didnt understand where its coming from when you're just typing numbers into the computer and i didnt have a concept of how fast i was racking it up. plenty of kids dont know this shit. this is normal. sorry you had to go work at the coal mines when you were 12 or whatever but my experience is not out of the ordinary.

[@oomper]

I'm 15 and this really opened an eye for me. I mainly play tf2 and I have so many unused crates and cases in my backpack that I'm going to sell so I don't get into gambling myself. thank god for me being so scared to ask money from my parents or relatives because if I did I probably would have developed a gambling addiction.

[@spacebassist]

Don't let the bastards rope you in Also, I didn't even realise you could sell them so thanks for the tip

[@oiytd5wugho]

@@spacebassist common drop ones are not worth anything, you can delete them. Operation cases and old crates go for a pretty penny tho

[@coolmien2485]

Personally, selling a tf2 crate made me feel more rewarded than opening one.

[@llamapie24]

What a treat! I’m right on time for Quinns’ quarterly PMG masterpiece. Love to see you speaking truth to power in a realm other than board games - the attention this channel has garnered is so well deserved Bratt n co!

[@untuxable5076]

That comment around 18:25 about money having more value to younger kids really hit the nail on the head. $20 to a middle schooler is the WORLD and represents so many opportunities. As an adult, you have to reach so much further for the amount gambled to feel like it has that kind of weight again. That's the rush the addicts are looking for. I've passed by your channel a couple of times before, but now I'm definitely subscribed!

[@HOUNGOUNGAGNE69]

Between Lootboxes & CSGO skin gambling, Valve has introduced a huge number of people to the trap that is gambling. Regardless of age, country or financial means, every CS:GO player has at some point been exposed & most importantly desensitized to gambling. It used to be worse back then with the massive push of streamers/youtubers.

[@michaelantonius321]

Lord Jeff has spoken.

[@bencampbell198]

So pleased you're looking into this, as we need to keep applying pressure on this awful, predatory practice. Shame on Valve

[@garchompenthusiast]

This is gonna be controverisal but it really needs to be said, thanks to your excellent journalism. Valve and Steam are almost golden cows in the industry, so a lot of their more questionable practices are tidied away

[@josewilkins2517]

Do you mean to say that thanking PMG for having good journalism would be controversial? I feel like most people would be able to see pretty clearly that they do their homework.

[@alastormedial]

@@josewilkins2517 no, they're saying the video is going to be controversial

[@garchompenthusiast]

@@josewilkins2517 Oh, not at all! I mean that this report will be controversial, or at least uncomfortable, because many see Valve and Steam as pinnacles of the industry. I mighta worded it poorly, admittedly

[@DairunCates]

@@garchompenthusiast Valve literally can do NOTHING that will ruin some people's "Good Guy Valve" image. Gabe Newell could kill a person on an E3 livestream, and you'd have people defending him just because he "made Half-life". It's pretty disheartening when you try to discuss the more intricate problems with Valve (such as how their sales models devalue indepedent studio games while not affecting AAA titles), because people won't even recognize the BIG stuff like child gambling rings, introducing lootboxes to thhe west, and the extent of their DRM practices.

[@ToomanyFrancis]

Their workplace structure is to thank for their status in the industry. Everything a Valve employee does is of their own volition, there are no deadlines to meet or shareholders to please. Their desks are quite literally on wheels so they can move from one project to another easily. It feels wrong to me to blame Valve for the online gambling problem. Law enforcement agencies exist for a reason, Valve has done everything they legally need to, it's not their job to play police.

[@Octanitrocubane-enjoyer]

and they say journalism is dead, you guys are the ONE thing keeping it alive

[@louisvankeymeulen8199]

People Make Games has always been the example I give as the standard for qualitative investigative journalism in gaming. This video reaffirms that. I had no idea these kind of betting sites were still active today and I sincerely hope you get the conversation going to put this issue back on the agenda. Keep doing what you're doing, I support all your efforts. Within your niche, you're keeping the spirit of inv. journalism alive.

[@NovReign]

Huge cheers for this! I'm excited for Part 2! That said, as an Indie Dev, this saddens me greatly. These kinds of business practices make it so challenging for me to want to setup a storefront on Steam for my games & make some kind of money *knowing* the nonsense Valve continues to allow elsewhere. I'm so sick of the "necessary evils".

[@morganjohnson1404]

I have to admit that I thought these kind of sites were properly taken care of and removed by now. It's insane to me that we still haven't had much legal progress with gambling in games.

[@Ravenlock]

PMG content is on a short list of stuff I will always try to watch the day it lands. Impressive work as always. Looking forward to part 2.

[@nanth6480]

One of the super insidious things about this too is external rewards make things you enjoyed intrinsically not enjoyable without the external rewards. So basically people who get into this space might become unable to enjoy the games at all without the gambling aspect

[@yrtti7732]

Fighting against gold selling is a neverending struggle. I don't think *anyone* has succeeded in curbing it beyond literally removing trading altogether. And even then money can exchange hands beyond the scenes so to speak for boosting and what have you. The gold for real money by the company itself goes way back - in retail WoW numerous years in fact, likewise with Bonds in RS/OSRS (which are good part of why that game is still going today) but especially EVE where I believe buying gametime with in-game money has been a thing since at least near its inception. Viewing it as inherently greedy tactic is fallible (likewise for power leveling), as buying from 3rd party has other nasty things related to it like account theft in buying power-leveling services from others or card info getting stolen. In fact, Jagex's ultimatum of removing free trade and PvP loot in RuneScape was because they were on the verge of being blacklisted by card companies due to people buying gold from dubious sites and then getting their card info stolen resulting in chargebacks and whatnot. Bear in mind that people have been buying and selling gold (in WoW) ever since WoW released, no GDKP necessary. Ultimately, these problems are things that PEOPLE have created for themselves. They can't help it as long as it's enabled, but in terms of MMOs something like killing trading completely is basically killing a huge part of the game with it - in fact, when Jagex slammed down the hammer on trading it hit the game population and it's one of the instances that people say "killed" the game. It is then better to start mitigating the risks of such activities rather than try and endlessly playing whack-a-mole with the never ending stream of goldselling or boosting sites as those just keep creating more and more problems for the consumers AND the company. Yes, it may look like its just pure greed on the surface, but it's also what the consumers desire - the services exist because people literally have a demand for them. People even buy gold and items on PRIVATE servers which could get whacked anyday! Even GDKP is literally something that people can circumvent by not allowing gold for bidding on raid drops, simple as. Also, one of the core design aspects of MMOs is that they're made addicting in design - to keep people engaged. This also includes literal random drops that people chase after year in year out by for example clearing a specific raid on numerous characters each week in hopes of a mount or doing time gated activities. One way or the other people are constantly dealing with games of chance and taking trying to hook the player into p(l)aying more. Even single-player games aren't exempt from this.

[@timothyallen-wagner5677]

So many have already sung your praise for the content you make but I can't help joining the chorus. Watching high quality content about any topic is inspiring enough but seeing journalism done with such quality is such a treat.

[@UnderGame]

A Valve classic

[@andrewhallock2548]

Your journalistic integrity is why I subscribe to this channel. I personally have no doubt that Valve and companies that use loot boxes know what they're doing, know that certain aspects of their actions are not only illegal but are actively hurting people, and that those same actions are making their companies a *lot* of money. And just like with tobacco companies back in the 70s modern day video game companies won't change anything until they're held accountable and forced to face the consequences of their behavior. Preferably with a very large class action lawsuit settled against them.

[@0x0michael]

I just discovered they pioneered/popularized the online game store and platform, gaming monetization trends like battlepasses, microtransactions, lootboxes, collectibles. These weren't unintentional, valve was deep into research on virtual/gaming economies. They went as far as hiring a world-class economist, who went ahead to be the Greek finance minister. They have built a 2D GUI Metaverse IMO

[@infectedanimal9830]

The steam marketplace, the original nft market

[@LeMicronaut]

Uhh, isn't Greece's economy in shambles? But yeah, it's crazy to think one of the most championed creative/tech companies was practically the first to implement every degenerative fiscal mechanic, but it was cool cause the context was much more palatable. The players/community make the skins that you purchase in TF2/CSGO and they can come packaged thematically with actual free maps. DotA 2 never monetized the gameplay and beat Fortnite's battle pass by several years. The battle passes were also marketed as supporting the Esports scene from the start, which built the community and DotA as a brand. Though there's one exception. It's amazing how spectacularly Artifact backfired, but I think it genuinely could have worked if Valve was more realistic with the (probable?) financial cost-cuttings of a digital TCG, were generous early, and focused on social features. They could have also tried to leverage more deterministic, but lengthy or difficult to earn DotA 2 cosmetics (i.e. paints/nametags) to act as marketplace/trade fodder for Artifact cards to provide an entryway for frugal players. They could have also packaged free artifact draft entries and boosters with DotA Plus subscriptions (if you only play dota 2, just sell them on the marketplace).

[@junkmail2223]

@@LeMicronaut Yanis Varoufakis was brought on as Greece's financial minister long after the Greek financial collapse started - he was specifically brought on to _fix_ things, and was the strongest anti-austerity voice in Greece.

[@endlesswaves8257]

What valve pioneered was the shop client, the storefront that launches with the game. Contemporary rivals from when steam launched (Impulse, Gamersgate etc.) either offered a self-contained downloadable installer or had a client that you only launched to install the game. Steam on the other hand launched itself every time you played. Once you have that, you can start interacting with the players independently of the game's developer and purchase place. Valve added pop-ups, a built in game shop that appeared even if you hadn't bought the game from steam and generally acted as if they owned the place. Despite all that, an awful lot of game developers either signed exclusivity agreements with them or chose to release their game solely on steam.

[@0x0michael]

@@endlesswaves8257 can you list some game devs who did that?

[@cremvursti]

Valve needs to be held accountable for this, they've literally risen to the top of the food chain by literally destroying who knows how many lives by getting kids hooked on gambling.

[@BiBoetzke]

Hey, Just wanted to mention that at 17:21 they are most likely talking about paysafe cards not "payslip" I know because that is precisely what I used to do

[@Razerka]

Thank you for the high quality material. Especially the final part with the lawyer was very interesting and valuable.

[@awogbob]

Prediction for the next episode: Valves desire to create a less toxic work environment has just created a form of non confrontational toxicity with extra steps

[@Thelizardwizardd]

@@terrificmarrow2764 ?

[@mechamicro]

@@Thelizardwizardd ralsei

[@h4724-q6j]

@@terrificmarrow2764 you could've just said that the words "environment" and "confrontational" are too long for you.

[@simonlandrieux8451]

Well, I don't know where things will go from this news piece, but I really think that beyond producing high quality content, you are really serving the common interest by bringing up these subjects. Thanks a lot!

[@RatoneroGris]

I was never really into Gamble but i was kinda into the TF2 and CSGO economy. The Fact that in the biggest tournaments you saw advertisements of Gambling sites and i still get some ads of It on YT on KZbin really does say something

[@trevdavies]

As said it all starts with the lootboxes. I know it's a different medium, but I know a friend who plays Magic The Gathering. He now spends a (to me) a colossal amount on booster cards, and justifies it by saying that certain cards he pulls is worth "X" amount.. He has now become somewhat of a recluse and is obsessed with it. I find it a little ironic, as he openly says he is dead against all forms of gambling, yet to me, this is exactly that, but without regulations.

[@paperstars9078]

Looking forward to part 2! People were definetly not happy to see GG_bet sponsor TI Group Stage. Also Someone at Valve told Dota 2 teams not to take crypto/gambling sponsors but they pour most of the money into the scene, so there is another reason why Valve doesn't want to do anything...

[@ConnorcsII]

I fell victim to all these sites since the age of 15, I would say overall I have gone through at least £35,000 in the 10 years that I gambled, Both on valve case opening's and also the sites that use the skins created by valve.

[@lurkie-o]

This video, heck this channel - it's amazing. Even just looking at the investigative journalism that all of you done, it's so thorough, it sheds a light on that which needs to be seen & despite the dark subjects they're wonderfully entertaining. P.S. In case Quins sees this, I would like to say that your work at SU&SD is great as well; it always brightens my day.

[@MoiraPrime]

I never really touched the third party gambling sites, but in the valve games alone I probably lost a few hundred dollars worth of steam credit due to the enticing gambling nature of trying to get an Unusual hat in TF2. It's hard to offer shit that''s worth between 5 cents and $500 in a $2.50 box and say "guys I swear it isn't gambling, you don't get any actual money you just get rare items" when the "rare items" themselves can be sold for anywhere between $70 and $7,000.

[@gunswinger3110]

Yep, never bothered with gambling sites either. I got my unusuals via a dedicated trading site for way cheaper than I would've spent rolling the dice on the crates, but can't deny the fact that the TF2 trading market still heavily relies on loot crates and MvM random drops to keep things churning along.

[@OriginalRaveParty]

Very well researched. I've followed this since 2016 and you spoke about all of the major scandal's, sites and criminal fakers that pushed this murky underbelly of gaming. There are people who "invest" in skins, stickers, capsules, loot boxes etc even today. They stream and upload case opening very often. It's the wild west still.

[@pdreding]

This is exactly the kind of thorough investigative journalism that we should all support.

[@DavidTriphon]

I always know that any topic your group talks about is going to be something important to listen to. Thank you for your work.

[@yukloj]

Please keep up the great work with your investigative pieces into how gaming platforms/companies operate; they are very informative and interesting.

[@Whitsoxrule1]

It's sad how far behind the video game journalism industry is compared to the work by 3 (very talented and dedicated) folks on KZbin. Fantastic work!

[@steel.oneill]

Great video! Very informative - can't wait for part 2 🌟

[@Joghurt2499]

I've played A LOT of CSGO between 2014-19. Lots of my friends put money in skins but we were never big on the case openings. One guy got a really expensive skin as a random drop from a match and went on a two week vacation with the money he got out of it. Another lost 400-600€ in skins he wanted to sell for real money to a scam link. It's insane what a huge amount of money we as average teens/early 20s had in our inventory at times. I for one am just proud that 16 year old me stayed away from the gambling sites. I feel a lot for those who fell into that trap. The pain this is causing is horrible. This video is a scary trip down memory lane. I 100% agree with the statement how well integrated this shit was in the community.

[@mistaecco]

Your dad nailed his mannerisms. Thank you as always for your fantastic research and reporting! Very excited for part 2 - I've heard fascinating things about valve's organizational makeup, but I'm scarce on the details.

[@Parksmanteau]

Of all the amazing reportage I follow in the games industry, PMG will always stay at the peak of what it is. You all are always finding and reporting on the stories that most other publishers look over for just normal press releases or the hot topics of the day (not to put them down, that's also important). Love y'alls work.

[@Myname-cb9ru]

i had a friend that throught middle school and highschool made a lot of money trading and gambling skins for csgo and tf2, it was a real business for him, only for him to loose it in a scam trade website. he lost tens of thousands of dollars. it was devastating. he fine now it been years but still...

[@CybershamanX]

This reminds me of when I went to Tokyo, Japan in the early 90s and I learned that the items you won at pachinko parlors could be cashed in right next door at a handy dandy shop that gave you cash for the prizes. Apparently, both shops would be owned by the same owner. It was done so that they could get around the gambling laws. Sort of like selling skins for money... 😕

[@Masilya111]

Valve normalized gambling in the videogame industry (and is even worse than loot boxes that we see today) and the gamer© community loves to ignore how Valve's responsibility. They'll mention every company before Valve...

[@Megaranator]

I think it may have to do with them introducing lootboxes in pretty nonpredatory way making sure they aren't really pay to win etc. Then all they had to do is wait for others to make them 1000% predatory and p2w which makes them look like saints in comparison.

[@DarenKajiWolf]

yep, A yes TF2 is okey because is fun and the objects modify actual gameplay and stats

[@KingEurope1]

Valve has coasted on the good will of making great games two decades ago. That’s long gone and spent now.

[@arandomcommenter412]

🤯

[@Kaytsey]

It's not only the consumers. The media is at fault too. Nobody seems to have cared about loot boxes, but when Overwatch was released there were big outcries, because of them. It's like everyone turns a blind eye towards Valve. Same with NFTs recently. CSGO skins are very much comparable to NFTs, but the outcries only ever started after NFTs actually became a thing and only towards those. It is shady af what Valve does, but nobody seems to acknowledge it.

[@DanTheGamingDad]

teaching my kid about the dangers of gambling in games has never been easier. I use it to teach him to be careful in games online that alter his emotional state. from us here at the XYZ household, thank you from the bottom of our hearts. keep it up!

[@kakoolie6947]

As someone who has been effected by this I completely agree with everything in this video. Very informative and helpful to the coming youth! Good job and thank you.

[@ZeroB4NG]

The "coming youth" is addicted to the dopamine kicks of TikTok clips and has not enough attention span for a 30 minute talking head video on youtube.

[@kakoolie6947]

​@@ZeroB4NGA bit of a late response but as a older member of gen z who grew up on technology I frankly just dont agree with you, simply if a video is well made it should grab there attention. I loved videos like this when I was younger. Also just look at the views. Clearly this video isnt "boring"

[@matthewmurray8570]

As a parent and a gamer, thank you. Thank you guys for all that you do.

[@damien678]

Oh, the Roblox video must have been an _experience_ for ya. I know it was for me and I don't even have my own kids

[@matthewmurray8570]

@@damien678 Yup. It was difficult to explain to our oldest son exactly why we wouldn't let him play Roblox, but I think we're all better now for it.

[@Zettabyte7]

Just imagine if we had lawmakers who would actually take this kind of stuff seriously. Great work PMG.

[@Jerms2pimp4u]

The past few journalistic reports your channel has made have been so utterly impressive. So well made.

[@N00bM]

Gabe Newell has multiple talks he has given at "LBJ School". Recorded in 2013 and before it already showed back then, Valves game plan of "letting the market do its thing" and adding value regardless in what form it comes. Gambling websites for Valve games raise the value of their products aswell as raise the customers perceived value, its aligned with their mission plan. It's kind of depressingly hilarious that the cynical capitalist attitude that led to steam being such a great service to its users (offering actual competition to piracy by being a valuable service) also enables something as sinister as gambling for minors.

[@squeaknsqurriel7060]

Me before clicking: oh cool, a historical perspective. I remember CSGO Lotto. Me at the end, head in my hands "how the fuck are they still getting away with this?"

[@MusicJunkie37]

I've lost thousands of dollars gambling on CSGO, I really regret it. Once you start winning, it's difficult to stop as you get into the cycle of trying to win back what you've lost, these companies exploit and prey on us.

[@RaseTaMokette]

Really, thank you for all your work on this. The lootboxes situation at Valve sure is absurd. The integrity you guys show across your videos is really refreshing and reassuring. Looking forward Part 2 with great interest.

[@gameXylinder]

"resPECTfully press" 🤣 Fascinating and sad to hear in equal measure. I did a bit of TF2 trading back around 2015 or so. Ended up cashing out and buying the budgeting app You Need A Budget on there instead. Haven't looked back, and I'm really glad I never figured out about this stuff. If so I might still be stuck gambling. Thank you, and looking forward to the next part already!

[@Damann23]

I can't applaud this journalism enough. I've been into games for 20+ years and you're opening my eyes to stories I didn't know existed. Thanks so much for doing this.

[@FlorSilvestre12]

The dynamic odds thing is really upsetting new info to me. It's appalling to think that people like me who don't spend money on lootboxes are being used to prey on others who are more susceptible to life-ruining lootbox spending. I thought before that it wasn't a huge deal if I played games with lootbox style mechanics in them as long as they weren't getting money out of me, but now I don't feel comfortable playing them at all if there's a possibility that my lack of spending habit is being used to promote someone else's problem gambling.

[@bobbywatson5697]

"Chaotic neutral" was such an eye-opener to me. Valve has always been a confusing company, but what those ex-employees said explain an awful lot of their behaviour...

[@crisis8v88]

Oh, so that's why a modestly interesting FPS game is so popular. Thanks again for your great work investigating and sharing these stories.

[@bananatassium7009]

The investigative journalism content you make at PMG is honestly incredible, and I really hope you're able to keep growing and reaching a wider audience in the future. Every video really teaches me so much, keep up the incredible work!

[@RB-il3hj]

Thank you for a important episode. I hope you will do more in the future.

[@krithikavasudevan148]

I got SO excited seeing that y'all made a new video and I can't believe I'm six days late to it! Y'all make some of the best and most inspiring indie journalism docs I think I've ever seen, I really admire the work you do!

[@anxietyspeedrun]

23:06 You know Valve really has a problem when PMG start praising the Roblox corporation

[@khalylehagood3222]

Okay, I know this is important reporting, but the cut back at 7:17 where you're still wearing the yellow hoodie was brilliant.

[@efleschner]

I wish journalism outside of games was as good as this channel.

[@diogoamorim513]

Love the research, the content, and also, praise to the animations, they really bring this channel a sense of identity, quirkiness and fun!

[@dr.cornwater2886]

The definitive video on this topic. Kids are being sucked in to gambling at 15 for cool gun skins to later bet on sports games on their phones so companies can see line go up month after month. Does not surprise me in the slightest that libertarian nonsense is the reason gambling is okay to these absolute psychopaths. I don't think the Invisible Hand of the Market will ever account for the safety of children. Great work as always folks!

[@dominateeye]

The invisible hand of the market accounts for no one's safety. CEOs and investors would be sacrificed too if Line Would Go Up. That's the problem with trying to put yourself at the top of an exploitative system like capitalism: you can, and almost certainly will, end up exploited too.

[@janosbornemisza1807]

Fantastic, brutal, eye-opening & necessary work. This practice (with all its attendant harms) has been allowed to proliferate for so long - I hope you’re excellent work on this raises enough noise for the industry to *finally* reckon with this. Thanks so much for the amazing work you do!!!

[@LastofAvari]

Thank you for your honesty, integrity and for holding them accountable.

[@johanneskronenberg6679]

I see PMG video, I watch a PMG video, I learn something unsettling, I like the video. Great work as always.

[@choii966]

THANK YOU so much for making this, I've been hoping someone would actually make a video on this for so many years now! The next video teased at the start also sounds very promising, It'll be nice to finally see a channel other than Tyler McVicker's dispel Valve's marketing about how their studio operates and actually show how it's run.

[@DracoGalboy]

I am very intrigued by the lengths I had to take on this app to find this video. Something I'd normally expect to see on the homepage, given my interaction history and subscription was instead not present there or in the subscription feed. Instead I had to navigate to the channel itself because I was curious about when you guys last uploaded/wanted to check for any updates on the ROBLOX shenanigans.

[@immediateegret2120]

All through the video I kept thinking about all the other things I have learned about the history of gambling, and the lengths people have gone to to evade attempts to regulate it. In particular, it calls to mind Japan's pachinko industry--it's literally the example you used of selling tiny paintings. Pachinko parlors dispense little metal balls, and shops next door accept those balls in trade for prizes. It's astonishing and disheartening how advanced gambling organizations have become on the backs of the video game industry. Not just what you've covered here, but loot boxes, gacha games, the whole shebang. It's on a scale the crooked, gang-run casinos of old couldn't even dream of.

[@mikhailradik4508]

This channel is too good for KZbin. This is top-tier investigative reporting.

[@staindk]

The GGBET sponsor at TI was crazy and sad. I think technically GGBET sponsored PGL, which is the production company hired by Valve - but of course Valve would have been able to block that. Thanks for another great video! As much as I like Valve's games and even some of the skins in them, this whole gambling side of it needs a lot of tidying up.

[@homeyworkey]

whats the difference between sports betting and esports betting websites? im guessing esports 'gamify' it more and make it more fun while sports is marketed as more serious. if so, does this lack of gamification make sports betting acceptable?? seems like a weird line to draw. although ig sports websites will be less prone to young people which is a good point

[@staindk]

​@@homeyworkey Definitely a good question. I think the following points make sports betting better (though I still don't like how big it is): 1. It is (generally) a regulated game, as in the government knows about the site/app and to some extent ensures they actually pay out etc. 2. Sports betting sites (always?) require a credit card or similarly "adult" payment mechanism that little kids won't have access to (unless their parents are keen to help them gamble...) - this weeds out a lot of children. 3. Some sports betting sites will require some form of ID as well - but I'm sure this varies from country to country 4. You are actually betting on *something* - the result of a big game, or whoever scores the first goal, etc... of course this kind of betting exists in esports, but a lot of the gambling talked about in this video is just between you and the gambling website - "45% chance to get a better skin!" etc... in an unregulated casino, how could you trust that 45%, or anything else for that matter? Edit: I've also seen some discussion about how sports betting is a very "cultural" thing in some places. I play fantasy sports (i.e. sports betting without any money) with my dad, but neither of us are interested in paying money into that.

[@homeyworkey]

@@staindk great points!

[@aquaos]

Me not joining in the skin gambling casinos cause I already blew all my savings on Waifu Gacha games: "Ah yes, it's all coming together." Edit: Wow, just wow this is an amazing video. It made my joke on gacha and gambling really tasteless now when I saw how serious and well put together on the gambling issue. This isn't just fun and giggles on loot boxes but the actual threat of skin betting and betting on games. Once again I just want to say this is an amazing video.

[@HelloCaity123]

When I was little, it was all about collectible cards (Magic) and special edition comic books...targeting kids with the (low) possibility of increasing in value. There was also huge amounts of money poured into Saturday-morning advertisements. And that was all very mild in comparison with what it's become now. The free market will always target children in some way or another for a simple reason...they are the most naive consumers, and least willing/capable of defending themselves. Amazing reporting as always, PMG!

[@map-reduce]

Like many have said, thank you. This is the first I've heard of this and I consider myself a "gamer dad". With a 15 year old son, I'm definitely going to talk to him about this.

[@FairlySadPanda]

Great video. There's a nasty link between the desire for "infinite spend" games - whale-hunting - and gambling. It also really does not help that the gambling industry sits right next to the games industry and recruits from the same pool of developers. (The number of times "gaming" job adverts have been fronted to me, and those are really gambling jobs, is astonishing). As an industry professional myself: it's clear that the hammer is going to come down at some point on this. Belgium is just the start. The industry hides behind the PEGI and ESRB systems and claims that's good enough, but censorship has always fundamentally been a government power. If the games industry wants artistic license to make whatever games it wants, it should also prove it creates safe and responsible games that do not encourage gambling. Too many issues with games these days are coming down to this friction between monetization and the power of a gaming ecosystem to ensnare players. We need to become more responsible, and to be honest I think the sad reality is that we're soon going to have to bite the bullet and recognize that game prices are now far too far below sustainable for most studios. The industry cannot continue to create addictive spend-spend-spend games but the market may not be able to endure a raise in the average sale price of game licenses. It's a horrendous problem.

[@flurglhinge3051]

Why are games so expensive to make? My impression is that it's a combination of increasingly detailed graphics; the expense of athlete, car, and gun licenses; and the cost of maintaining multiplayer infrastructure. Is that accurate? Would it offer developers a meaningful saving if they were to, for example, not render the reflection of each individual stadium light off the sweat in Lionel Messi's beard?

[@charlestrudel8308]

well, during the ps2 and ps3 era, lots of companies have gone under, but this would also happen today if it werent for the MTX etc games that makes so much money that you can now have multiple failed projects and still come out on top if you only have one with MTX. yes indeed, lots of them would have gone under, but that would probably be for the better.

[@FairlySadPanda]

To put it simply, games are sold on two things: game quality ("Shovel Knight is a high-quality game that looks like an NES game") and game fidelity ("Every hair in Messi's beard is individually rendered but it's the same basic FIFA game you've been playing since 1998"). You can't spend more to make a specific game higher quality (after a certain point). But you *can* spend more on fidelity indefinitely - more art, more music, more motion capture... And you'll get a return on investment because customers LOVE high-fidelity games. But eventually the customer will get sticker-shocked off your game price and you have to find a way of funding that fidelity in post-purchase products.

[@flurglhinge3051]

@@FairlySadPanda Thanks, that makes sense to me. So is this a case of 'EA et al are screwed, lol' or 'EA et al are screwed and they're going to take everyone with them'? Are the CoDs and FIFAs subsidising the production/distribution of games I find interesting, or can that market segment collapse without destroying the Shovel Knight type devs?

[@TeleportRush]

@@FairlySadPanda I would rather the price of games stay the same and games cut back their budgets rather than investing so much in graphical quality. I believe studios will have to recognize that large slow releases backed by hundreds of millions in investments are actually unsustainable, or at least are when coupled with the sheer volume of bonuses given to upper management. They're going to have to move to releasing more smaller budget games in the future, especially when their other forms of monetization get cracked down on.

[@nmociahfgow]

When I first found this YT you were making cute chill videos about board games. Now you're doing some of the best investigative gaming journalism I am aware of. Keep up the good work.

[@MoonatikYT]

I feel like Valve often gets away with predatory behaviour like this because the rest of the industry is so much worse. Valve's library of games includes masterpiece after masterpiece, they generally provide a good service with Steam, and they treat their employees exceptionally well compared to the rest of the industry. With that in mind, its easier for many to forgive Valve's sins when other companies wont clear the few basic hurdles they have, but this has the outcome of said sins being overlooked when they're just as worthy of criticism as any other company's sins. Great video, can't wait to see more.

[@mkd2364]

Thanks for all y'all journalism, you guys always bring such fresh perspectives on situations throughout the realm of gaming. Also nice money plant, hope it brings a lot of good luck! ❤

[@Sleeepy.]

I think I lost about $200 on csgoroll, this is when I was in the military and had basically zero bills and a 100% guaranteed paycheck no matter what. I remember it was only like one week, but I was in deep enough that I had to remind myself that when my contract expires and I go back to normal life, this is strong enough to ruin me. I'm really glad I stopped when I did. I think it's also a good thing that the site hit me as hard as it did, if I had doubled that $200, I might even still be doing it.