Comparing 5 conductors VERY different openings of Beethoven 5th Symphony (& why they chose that)

[@captainrobertcowley9507]

Hello Anna, I am a Classical Music Presenter on FM Radio in Melbourne Australia. You are outstanding as a teacher too. I have had 60 years in Classical Music and you are one of the best voices I have heard with great authority and clarity of understanding. Thank you ROBERT

[@katrinat.3032]

You wrote a book about Kleiber?? What’s it called??

[@adrianjanssens7116]

@@katrinat.3032 Who wrote a book? Also who is Robert?

[@voornaam3191]

​@@adrianjanssens7116 He is an influencer in Melbourn.

[@howimettheopera]

In 3:55 I use the word "slurred" when I actually mean "tied". Sadly those two words are almost identical in Spanish and brain went no good speak bad. I think what I meant is still clear but just in case ;)

[@lloydbotway5930]

Thanks for explaining that -- before I left a critical comment! Thanks for this video.

[@TheConsarnedCitizen]

Holy cow. Been a musician for 60 years (including 10 years in a major symphony orchestra) and never knew of this distinction! Not that I would have played anything differently....

[@jessicadebernard8210]

@@TheConsarnedCitizenInteresting! I wish I could say I had your background! I went to college for music many moons ago but never did anything with that degree. I came to the comments specifically for this reason. They look the same but a slur connects two or more different notes and a tie connects two or more of the same note (usually one tie connecting only two notes and additional ties if more than two notes tied together). Very cool video and crazy to see the vast variations in interpretations!

[@johannesvonedelmann]

❤️♥️❤️!

[@mastick5106]

"...brain went no good speak bad." Even though I'm a native English speaker, I am SO stealing that phrasing for the next time what my brain sends to my mouth doesn't match the idea I had.

[@SquidzitAce]

Not sure why KZbin suggested this 2 year old video to me, but I truly enjoyed it. 😊

[@ebbenielsen7]

Same here ...

[@artursandwich1974]

And here

[@cr-pol]

ditto !

[@arvandvarahram]

I can confirm.

[@madEsiak]

Hi, i am not alone :D But i need to add we are talking about classical music, what is 2 years compare to this? xD And good content is more important, then "fresh" content.

[@inabendis6204]

My name is Ina and I'm a 76-yo classical music lover who started swimming laps in my late 60's; I met the challenge of remembering which lap I'm up to at any given time by playing a theme in my head from some favorite piece associated with that particular number; e.g., Bach's Brandenburg #1 for Lap-1, 2nd movement of Beethoven's 2nd symphony for Lap-2, etc. Naturally, lap 5 would be the opening of Beethoven's 5th, but until I saw this wonderful presentation I ultimately got somewhat bored with that -- it felt so "war-horsey", if you get my drift, to the extent that for awhile I switched to The Trout which as a quintet was a reasonable proxy for "Number-5". But your education here about "the second time around" fremata made that opening so amazingly interesting that now I'm back to my old fave, making sure to pay attention to that longer pause and relishing in it. Now I'm sure you didn't make this video to help septuagenarians keep in shape, but I gotta tell you I never stop my swim-workout before Lap #5 because I don't want to miss that long-pause ... So, Thanks!

[@timothyseaman]

I've always been fascinated as I listen to the varied openings of this symphony (for 70 years now!) --- your discussion is right on the mark and appropriately gracious, and extremely interesting!

[@jeaneltawil]

I liked the video just from the title, anything with Beethoven in it is paradise for me :) Then I watched the video and I now wish there was a double like button! I'm loving your videos of this format, explaining the music's technical side in a way that someone like me, who can't even read notes, let alone more details about how to interpret them, can understand... Thanks for these videos and keep up the good work!

[@howimettheopera]

Thank you so much for this comment and for watching :)

[@ericleiter6179]

I share your love for anything Beethoven too!!!...plus this channel

[@katrinat.3032]

I am also a Beethovenophile. I just found this channel and it’s interesting so far

[@1zaj34]

Although there is no double like button, you can express your feelings by triple liking. Or, if you want to go above and beyond, do a quintuple like. Just make sure to use an odd number of likes and not an even one. 😀

[@jeaneltawil]

@@1zaj34 Sounds like you don't like marches and are a big fan of waltzes 😄

[@charlesbarber8166]

I appreciated your careful observation of the 'extra' bar that Kleiber shows, tied to the second fermata. That precision was actually quite common to his work. He had a reputation as a supremely charismatic and inventive-rhapsodic conductor, and it was earned. BUT: the depth and concision of his score study was extraordinary. His players were aware of this, at all times. He marked his parts fastidiously, and additionally left his players little Kleibergrams with further detailed instructions, plus flattery and jokes. They always knew what he wanted, and why. When he would occasionally stop conducting altogether -- mid-performance -- he could pay his players no higher compliment. CK had the gift of showing everything, and nothing, as required. This is indeed most unusual, and helps account for his unique reputation. Michael Walsh of TIME Magazine, on hearing Kleiber's recording of the Fifth with Vienna, realized what Kleiber had achieved: "It was as if Homer had come back to recite the Iliad." Indeed.

[@ahujeffrey]

Very well put! Thanks 👍

[@donaldallen1771]

What he did adds clarity. Beethoven wrote it the way he did for good reason, and Kleiber is showing it to the orchestra explicitly. I can’t think of a conductor who respected the score more than Kleiber. And that includes Toscanini, who said one thing and did another, e.g., Bolero, En Saga. I loved your book about Kleiber. He left us too soon.

[@charlesbarber8166]

It's a paradox, eh? CK was concise and precise as required by the scores he knew so well. This acquitted him the freedom he needed in order to explore as imaginatively as his fabulous ear and technique permitted. He had it both ways, and this is rarity. YES re Toscanini. In my early education he was a god of authenticity. One day, my teacher gave me a recording of his Brahms 1, iv, an urtext of same, and an assignment: come back with a report on the differences. Good Lord. I had no idea. I'm glad you enjoyed the book. Thank you. It will be 20 years this July... You would have liked him. He really was as witty as advertised. @@donaldallen1771

[@laurielyon7740]

Yes! Well said. I’m 76 and when I was about 14 (?), Beethoven’s 5th was probably the my first introduction to orchestral music. All of a sudden, the musical universe was revealed. I LOVED THIS SYMPHONY. And, of course I still do. I have perhaps 7 or 8 versions by various conductors. The Kleiber is my favourite, so I’m pleased Anna’s discussion used his example….. 11:31

[@laurielyon7740]

Wonderfully done and entirely insightful. Who doesn’t love the 5th?

[@vincentellin3821]

As an orchestra principal player, I find your videos quite interesting, thank you! Many times when doing Beethoven's 5th the first rehearsal ends up taking a considerable amount of time to get the 1st movement opening right. Frequently the cut-off for the 2nd fermata will be(or in my mind, should be)the down beat to the next bar, and the orchestra will commonly hesitate coming in, and that's where the problems of ensemble happen. I have to say I LOVE Kleiber's Vienna Philharmonic 5th recording very much....but as far as I'm concerned Kleiber can do no wrong in my mind.

[@andrewweiss1300]

Hi Anna, here’s another Classical Music Presenter on FM radio in Australia, this time in Brisbane. I agree with my colleague in Melbourne. Your explanations are lucid and informative. The Kléber was especially fascinating. As someone who’s played in orchestras, I appreciate his signalling the tempo before the downbeat and giving that gesture at the connection-point between the two tied notes that keeps the tempo going for the musicians. Thank you for what you’re offering and I hope a lot of people get to learn from your videos.

[@markeddy9169]

Insanely edge trivia here, but morse code uses dit-dit-dit-dah for V is because of Beethoven's V symphony. Which comes around to the movie The Longest Day using Beethoven's Fifth because "V-for-Victory" is shown by three short flashes followed by a long one.

[@katrinat.3032]

I love classical music trivia like that!!

[@kamalhashmi9851]

Erm... people have forgotten this now‽😂

[@annoyingbstard9407]

😂

[@markeddy9169]

@@kamalhashmi9851 It was only a couple of years ago that I found out that ..._ for V was a tribute to Beethoven. I didn't realize that the time gap was long enough: 1808 (Beethoven's 5th) to 1840 (Morse Code gets letters).

[@kamalhashmi9851]

@@markeddy9169 Sigh. Unfortunately it isn't - the choice of '...-' for V was made totally independently. It was approx as common a letter as B which was chosen to be '---.' In Morse (the very common letters like E have shorter codes and the rare letters like X longer codes). Nothing to do with Beethoven. Also, symphonies (& quartets, concertos etc) are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4 etc not I, II, II, IV, etc - no-one writes it as Beethoven's Symphony V. During the Second World War: "it became the BBC European Service's call sign and interval sign. Across Occupied Europe people hummed and whistled the tune, and in Britain the V made its way onto badges and other items. Prime Minister Churchill made the sign his trademark." The 'V' actually started in Belgium! See www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0gbz0y1 (you may need a VPN from overseas. Shhh, I never told you)

[@patricktulher]

What an amazing video! ^^ I think Beethoven's fifth symphony is SO famous that most conductors prefer to push themselves into new interpretations, so that there aren't too similar versions. "Everyone knows this, so i will be a little bit different".

[@howimettheopera]

Thank you! It’s true that it’s probably quite challenging to approach such a popular piece!

[@pablovogel6986]

I think the purpose of starting in a silence is to not stress the first note, so it's dadadaDA otherwise would be DAdadaDA. Beethoven manages to start the gesture always that way thru de movement. The other thing I heard is that a slur implied a diminuendo, a tapering on volume according to 19th practice. Some conductos do that on "period" performances.

[@StinkinGoodAle3241]

My dad was a conducting teacher, so I both enjoyed your talk, and, I have to admit, have heard them before around the dinner table. One point I didn't hear you mention is that there is a question as to whether Beethoven meant, with the notation of the second fermata, for it to be a fermata on a whole note, rather than what it literally is - to me it sounds like something Furtwängler did.

[@paullewis6213]

Fascinating and entertaining analysis! I had no idea so much is packed into those few opening bars.

[@DPMusicPoetry]

Ben Zander (Boston Philharmonic) shared his interpretation of this about 2 years ago. I listened to his pre-concert talk about it. Would love to hear your thoughts.

[@casperabraham9942]

Excellent presentation. As a classical guitarist I personally decide the tempo of every piece not allowing what I have heard before to decide my interpretation. A key factor is definitely is the TEMPO to start with and through the piece.

[@vladimirhrovat8100]

Hi Anna! A few days ago I wrote you in an "extra" letter also about how special and fantastic it was for me as a "first violinst in the symhony" to play Beethoven's 5th with Carlos Kleiber - and now I see your great analysis about the different interpretations of it's entering. Among so many different times played it with many other conductors - i administer an oath to Kleiber, yes!

[@garrettcampbell47]

Anna, not only am I a musician -- I'm an opera singer - but I'm an aspiring conductor. I'd LOVE if possible to discuss with you composers, conductors, compositions, technique, inspiration, etc. I have several ''favorite'' interpretations of Beethoven 5. Overall, nowadays I gravitate toward Karajan's interpretation from the early 1980s. However, Szell's interpretation from the early-mid 1960s with the Concertgebouw is thrilling and brilliant as well. The ''best'' interpretation of the ''Scherzo: Allegro'' (3rd Movement) is from a mono, 1953 recording of the Concertgebouw under Erich Kleiber. Incidentally, I have written a film short that's directly inspired by this Symphony. It's entitled, ''Beethoven's Fifth; OR: A Design For Living.''

[@lark5986]

This was so interesting! As a violinist and devotee of the Boston Symphony Orchestra, your analysis gave me a new insight into my favorite composer.

[@Brianbrianbrian71]

Loved this, and your layering in context (eg. Mahler’s student) as well. I appreciate your work very much. Thanks!

[@howimettheopera]

thank you for watching!

[@anthonybates8670]

I found your discussion and demonstrations very interesting as one who is not a musician but listens to a lot of recordings.

[@NagarajanVasudevaRao61]

I too feel the same, very interesting for music listeners who won't know the technical details of notes and tempos. The presenter is very articulate. 👍

[@IanFraser-j9u]

Thanks for this interesting discussion. There is another issue with the first 4 notes of the 5th: most orchestras play the 3 short notes as if they were a triplet, with the same accentuation on each note (the 'fate knocking at the door' effect). Whereas Beethoven wrote 3 quavers preceded by a silence on the first beat of the bar. The first quaver is thus 'upbeat' and should not be accented. In a way, we 'feel' a silent accent on the first beat (if that is possible). In this interpretation, the conductor's first gesture will show the silent beat, not the first played note. This approach is also more consistent with a true allegro tempo.

[@mccloysong]

I can't imagine having a full orchestra in unison unless they all know the tempo and heart beat going into it. 7:23 makes sense

[@BDNADLER]

I would love to see you analyze other Beethoven Symphonies as well. In particular, Symphonies 3, 6, 7, and 9.

[@ahujeffrey]

As an armchair conductor (super amateur), I really appreciate your professional perspective. I had dreamed of conducting, using birthday money to buy a conducting manual and baton when I was in my early teens. Unfortunately, I am not inherently gifted, particularly in note reading. So, thanks again! ❤

[@HomerNarr]

@ahujeffrey I had to smile over this comment. " I had dreamed of conducting" Because i remembered a Manga/Anime where the Maincharacter dreams of being a famous conductor, but because he is afraid of flying, he can't travel to Europe (of course he is from Japan). -> Nodame Cantabile

[@michaelstearnes1526]

Thanks for your interesting analysis of this familiar but always intriguing work. The two recordings that I listen to most often: The 1937 Furtwangler Berlin (one of his best studio recordings). And the Klemperer Philharmonia (earlier mono) And yes I agree the Walter is quite interesting. Thanks again.

[@fabiopaolobarbieri2286]

I heard ,many convincing Fifths, but the one that sticks in my mind is Toscanini's 1931 version that I first heard right here on KZbin. I had never really made any sense of the second movement, but that one made me understand it. Which is quite a nice feeling when you have had thirty years or more to understand a piece and still you hadn't got there. Your explanations are very interesting, and I'll be back. Thank you.

[@adiemlaetiel]

Congratulations! As a listener who is new to these details, it was very important for me and other listeners to notice such striking details in an interpretation of a classical piece. Thanks. My perception was expanded in many ways.

[@agerven]

Very nice and to the point. i'm very curious to what you have to say about the opening of Beethoven's ninth symphony. Had the good luck to see a local performance of that, long ago. The conductor literally took a rather high vertical jump, while coming down the first two notes were played, and after landing the second two notes. Spectacular.

[@Casutama]

I just found your channel and this is such great content! Conducting is really so interesting!

[@howimettheopera]

thank you so much!

[@FloydMaxwell]

Most interesting. Beethoven has always been my favorite classic composer (by far). My all-time favorite work is his 4th Piano Concerto. I find it very inspirational.

[@melonwee6450]

The subtle piano introduction is just perfect.

[@andrewberridge4630]

I'm a horn player and have played Beethoven 5 loads and loads of times. Most conductors I have played for indicate the bar for the second fermata (pause). It gives me as an instrumentalist indication that it should feel different, and it does give this fermata a very different feel to play. If you know the difference, you can also detect it when you hear the symphony, although it's a subtle effect. I think the opening bars would be much less dramatic without the difference. Genius writing by Beethoven.

[@partituravid]

showing the bar before the 2nd fermata makes perfect sense to me...not conducting sound, conducting the SCORE; what Beethoven wrote, therefore what his thought process was. If he wrote the 2nd differently, you should "show" it 1st to yourself, then to the players. BTW, I was taught the count-in technique by my conducting teacher, who was not an academic, but was concertmaster for Szell and Ormandy, and played for Stokowsky (and has his Romeo+Juliet score).

[@malcolmclancy6120]

Hello Anna Thank you for the video. And the memories sixty years ago as a child discovering music and "acting" as a conductor. By the age of 10 I knew I wanted to be a conductor or an architect. Sixty years on I'm an architect but with a conductor inside still trying to get out. I salut you as a fellow professional of the arts.

[@ricardojuricic9027]

What observations could you please point out about Barenboin's conducting? I liked the way you approached and explained the matter. I Do remember having heard different LP recordings of that symphony and tempos weren't quite the same, depending on the conductor & orchestra. I DO appreciate your comment. Cheers 🤙🏻👍🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 🇦🇷🤗

[@justforever96]

I don't really know much about music. I knew nothing at all about it not that many years ago it seems like, other than that I liked it and appreciated more different types than most of my friends. finally taught myself to read shape notes, and that is about as far as I have got so far, but it is one of those things that the more you learn about it, the more interesting it becomes. anyway, I always thought of Beethoven's Fifth as being the most perfect piece of music I knew of. but it is cool to learn more about the technical details, I was always amazed at the complexity of classical music, it makes the music I am familiar with seem so basic and primitive. the whole idea that one could create such a complex and impressive tapestry of sounds, and convey it to other people, and record it so that people could still repeat it hundreds of years later is amazing. even the idea that one upon a time the only way one could hear this kind of thing at all was to assemble an entire orchestra of trained musicians and have them play it live for you is very appealing to me. people really don't appreciate what they have enough these days.

[@faville]

In my conducting class as a student we studied this a bit. We asked the professor (an excellent conductor himself) about conducting that tied half note and he said absolutely we should. It’s written there, so show it. Obviously many pros do not, but I never forgot that lesson and it always makes me think about the interpretative process at different levels of performance.

[@RobertJWaid]

Nice analysis. As someone in the orchestra, I preferred conductors who communicated what they wanted by their movements above the metronome. Thank you for pointing out “extra” movements from Kleiber. Hopefully, others will follow.

[@honda412000]

Love these micro lectures about whatever concerning music. Very nicely explained and commented Anna. Wish there were more.

[@TripoliLy]

“Enthusiastically conducting silence.”

[@FernandoLXIX]

It's interesting to see the thought process behind conducting

[@ramanlo66]

Hi Anna, Very interesting topic and thank you so much for your explanation. It is a great job especially adding the video and point out some "small action" , it is great help for "layman" like me......😅😅😅

[@rb-ex]

i loved this discussion. everything was communicated in a precise and lively way and nothing got in the way of the message. i know very little about conducting or musical interpretation but as i read it the half note linked to the 2d fermata means to hold the 2d fermata exactly one half note longer than the 1st fermata. also thought bruno walter's interpretation was extraordinary, introducing a kind of metrical madness as a literary foreshadowing of what we're in for in

[@AntoinneBarnes]

the one thing to consider in addition to everything you mentioned is that they may have been using different scores from different editors. it occurs to me that some scores may not have the slurred half notes at all. we know now that bad editions are available but 30, 40, 50 years ago they may not have been so aware.

[@pablov1973]

For several years my favorite 5th symphony recording was Karajan's 1962 cycle. But I wasn´t the only one I listen, I have Toscanini, Walter, Szell. Actually my favorite 5th is Stokowski last recording of the work with the London Philharmonic made in 1968. Now it looks like is quite easy to solve the beginning but I believe that is quite tricky. I don´t know if is true, but once I read that Walter used to say to his musicians "you can start to playing when the batoon is in front of the penultime button of my suit". I told that to a retired conductor that used to live here in Uruguay, now sadly he passed away, and he told me that it make sense, since Walter was establishing an space reference for the musicians about how the tempo is gonna be beated. Thank you for your videos, every single I watch makes me like most the channel.

[@howimettheopera]

thank you for watching and for your thoughtful and interesting comments!

[@curtiscroulet8715]

It's my understanding that when Boulez made that recording, he'd been spending a lot of time in discussions with Otto Klemperer. It shows. Gunther Schuller spent several pages on these opening bars in his book "The Compleat Conductor." One thing that neither he nor you address is the practice of playing the opening bars at a much slower tempo than the rest of the movement. The current HIP crowd doesn't do it that way, but it was common in the old days. Even Toscanini plays the opening slightly slower than the remainder of the movement. Also, there's the common practice of inserting an unmarked pause between the two opening gestures, and then between the opening and the remainder of the movement.

[@notmyworld44]

My all-time favorite was an RCA vinyl recording I had in the early 1960s with Serge Koussevitzky conducting. As a career performer on the double bass viol I played this symphony many times.

[@JonMurray]

Really enjoyed a detailed explanation of the different interpretations! New subscriber ✌🏻

[@micklean]

Thanks for the examples! I'm an "old school" (born in 1953) rocker and never understood what a conductor did! 😘

[@gregorprozesky]

I wish to hear a hear a crescendo in the bar 2 and 4,5. It brings more energie into the opening. The most condutor dont do that. Thank you very much for the interesting analyse.

[@ohrusty]

This was indeed interesting. Like I wrote in another comment on another of your videos explaining this, I'm in awe that I am kiiiiind of sort of really being able to understand what you mean. And showing the example twice that you are talking about helps a lot with understanding it more.

[@cordeliaodendaal2656]

Very interesting. Glad I found you!!

[@TonyAngel]

I only came across your site here last night and this video really gladdened my heart. About 50 years ago there was a programme on BBC 3 (UK) about this very subject, but did not note down which conductor used which tempo. Fate knocking at the door was a much used expression. Roughly four years later (I was 30) I was in a conducting class and the others before me took it at quite lick. My turn and I mentioned that I was going take note of the expression Fate knocking at the door and considered that if it was true then Fate would not be a doing fast ratatataaa on the door but would be more steady and determined. Any way I took it steadier and the conducting professor was not amused, compounded because I could not cite an example that backed me up. I was similar to Boulez´s tempo (not sure when that was dated from, but my effort was in early 1979). I know that I compounded my "error" by introducing an accelerando just after the motif. I now need to work my way through the rest of your videos. Very enjoyable.

[@tigermex8878]

Wonderful video! Hope you can make a video of Beethoven's Firth with Wilhelm Furtwängler conducting. Thanks ahead.

[@snowpants2212]

Would love to hear more about the significance of the initial 1/8 note silence...

[@alanckay]

I have a comment above about this. I think it means that the first heard note is a weak beat, and thus should have less intensity than the second held note (and that this really makes a difference in "what is being said").

[@caltechharvard]

Most fascinating. Thank you. I learned a lot.

[@yetanotherjohn]

How wonderful! It seems to me that the silence immediately after the long note is part of the system as well.

[@feynthefallen]

Interestingly, as radically different as those interpretations are, they all kinda work for me. The most radical interpretation I ever heard played the second pair of opening bars at half the speed of the first, then paused until it almost became unpleasant, before launching into a furious allegro for the rest of the introduction. I found it deeply emotional and extremely refreshing.

[@mlthed]

Thank you. Fascinating!! I remember when Gardiner released the Beethoven Symphonies played at what he considered the correct (faster) tempi and with instruments made in the style of the time. Blew me away!!

[@edgardodelossantos2590]

Buen video, entre más escucho comentarios de directores de orquesta sobre alguna obra, más disfruto la música. Felicidades!

[@wiktorLicht]

I love this video. I don't have any one fav recording but I like Karajan (that was the first one I've even heard cuz I had a CD) and Harnoncourt (it's very... defined? I'm not sure how to say it, his interpretation is clearly segmented, and put into small parts, something like when you play baroque and you strictly keep this metric-accent/bar/phrase distinction - I like it)

[@NigelDeForrest-Pearce-cv6ek]

I Only Came to Beethoven in My Middle Twenties, when I Found an Unabridged Bernstein/New York Philharmonic Recording that Was Enchantingly Powerful and Beautiful!!!! Beethoven DEMANDS OUR ATTENTION!!!! No Wasted Notes; Every Note Has Meaning. The Message is the Hero’s Triumph Over Struggle!!!!

[@ericleiter6179]

VERY well put!!! Nothing wasted in Beethoven...every note counts and feels inevitable...plus the ultimate pay off and satisfaction of his finales; which reveal the compelling Big Picture he had in mind from the start!!!...he is still the high water mark for all composers...period

[@leebarker539]

Thank you for this delightful explanation. I share these very notes as saying, "Hey, this is important. (fermata) HEY! REALLY IMPORTANT!"

[@jeffholston5443]

Cool video! If you can get a video of Klaus Tennstedt conducting the 5th, I saw him live in London many years ago, and I always though his approach was rather unique!

[@daviddavenport9350]

Anna...I sometimes have conducted this and other such places in Beethoven (8th Sym 1st mvmnt, 9th Sym scherzo) by conducting 2 or 4 bar phrases....so I conduct this in 4/4 (with a 2/4 bar here and there where appropriate), and 2/4.

[@aateyya]

Great video.. your content is very underrated!

[@howimettheopera]

thank you! glad you enjoy it

[@Carl-FriedrichWelker]

As a classical music KZbinr and conducting student, good job💪🏻

[@russpalmeri]

Very interesting. Well presented. Liked and subscribed.

[@daveanddd3731]

Great video. speaking as one who has conducted amateur orchestras, I can think of nothing more terrifying than the opening of Beethoven No. 5

[@frenchhorn1969]

Thank you! I think, that I am the biggest Kleiber Fan in the world! The reason of his conducting is the Rhythm. You can beat "through" all the way of the first movement That makes the difference to all the others

[@caterscarrots3407]

I knew from the title that I was going to like it. I love anything Beethoven related. And the Fifth Symphony, well, I can't say it's my favorite Beethoven piece, because I don't have a single favorite Beethoven piece. But I can say that it's my favorite Beethoven symphony. It's the piece with which I really started to appreciate Beethoven's craftsmanship as I transcribed it note by note into Musescore. And it's one piece for which my opinion changed completely in the space of just a few years. When I was around 9 years old or so, I didn't really care for Beethoven's Fifth, or really anything by Beethoven to be honest. I only heard a few pieces, but even so, I just could not appreciate what Beethoven was doing the same way I could appreciate say a Mozart string quartet. A few years later, I was a teenager, and I developed a bias towards minor key pieces and towards having more drama in the music. Suddenly, Symphony no. 40 by Mozart wasn't enough to satisfy my drama want, I was going to have to look for another composer. Well then, here comes Beethoven, I searched "C minor piano concerto", found Beethoven's concerto, and listened to it. I was totally blown away by how much drama there was. Soon, I was craving for more Beethoven in hopes of hearing more of that same drama, and well, I did. Just in the space of 4 years or so, I went from not caring for Beethoven at all, to not enjoying his music, but being able to appreciate what's going on, to enjoying his music more than that of anybody else, including Mozart. And with Beethoven's Fifth in particular, it went from being my least favorite symphony, even below the symphonies of Haydn, to being my absolute favorite symphony. My favorite conductor for Beethoven's Fifth is Karayan, and my second favorite is Kleiber.

[@muzluv33]

I Agree. Karajan and Kleiber for me as well. With Karajan it is a trait of his to keep his multiple accounts of the same work pretty consistent with just minor differences. I also put Klemperer Philharmonia up there to for his slower yet more monumental approach. Beethoven's Fifth can take a variety of approaches as can most pieces of music.

[@georgenorris2657]

I´ve often followed the score of this piece but I had never noticed that extra bar in the second phrase!

[@adriendecroy7254]

I know you have an urtext edition there, but if you want to know what Beethoven wrote, I suggest looking at the autograph manuscript - to see what he literally wrote. It's always an interesting exercise if it's available (and it is for his 5th). In this case there's just "con brio" marked, and no metronome marking. It was very rare to put metronome markings back then, so I would be very surprised if he wrote one. So your discussion about metronome markings is not based on what Beethoven wrote there, unless he wrote about it somewhere else (e.g. in a letter or something). Also, there's a really key distinction between a slur and a tie that you should know. They are not the same. Those notes are tied, not slurred. 2 noteheads tied is a single note, and sounds as a single note. 2 noteheads slurred are 2 notes, and sound as 2 notes. 2 of the same note slurred will result in a re-emphasis of the 2nd note, you will hear it. Visually, a tie is much shallower than a slur.

[@geiryvindeskeland7208]

adriendecroy, quote: «In this case there’s just «con brio» marked, and no metronome marking.» I read the quote with interest. Beethoven’s 5th is one of many compositions that are frequently discussed, so it is important to use correct information. Who added «Allegro?» Who wrote 108 minims in the first movement?

[@marcosPRATA918]

Tempo, andamento, acentos, articulações, dinâmica, textura. Como cada maestro trata isso é minha permanente curiosidade e prazer da escuta. Estou apreciando com prazer seus comentários, comparações, exemplos.

[@durban55]

This is a great video! Very informative! You just earned yourself a new subscriber 😊

[@ThePlasticJones]

I would like to hear your thoughts on the use of motifs or themes within a symphony like Beethoven's Fifth. The "da-da-da-dah" sequence is also heard in the 2nd movement, and more prominently in the 3rd. It's a little hard to pick out, but you can find it in the 4th movement, too. Tchaikovsky used repeated themes in some of his symphonies, particularly his fifth.

[@essttebanmatematicas410]

Good explanation. Thanks!!! For me, Karajan is at the top

[@smuconn]

Exceptional video: passion, intellect, and cogent diction married to produce insights galore. Favorite Beethovan 5th recording? Christoph von Dohnányi's with the Cleveland Orchestra (with, of course, credit to George Szell whose imprint on the ensemble can still be heard today).

[@davidstetson3805]

Well done, Anna. Of course this is another piece that we musicians have played many times over our careers, and have seen many conductors. I want to say the Boulez is too slow, but, especially for the first 4 bars, this rhythmic motive could be slower (than elsewhere) in these statements just for emphasis. It'd help new listeners remember this "struggle with fate" that continues deep into the 3rd and 4th movements...

[@MorganHayes_Composer.Pianist]

fascinating talk and thanks for clarifying the slur/ tie thing as it threw me for a bit! Telling maybe that with Karajan the duration is evened out.

[@pjkorab]

One thing that always bothers me is how few conductors actually conduct these first bars in tempo at all. I know it may be a technical issue of not being able to communicate the tempo to the orchestra (and I guess when musicians aren't sure of the tempo, it tends to slow down), but I'm still like "what are you doing? do you see a rit. anywhere in there??" Another problem is that probably even fewer conductors try to indicate that the motif starts with a rest - it's either three eight notes played with exactly the same strength, or even worse, with the first one slightly accented. Which makes most people think it's a triplet Ta-ta-ta-Taaa, just like the version of the theme appearing in the Scherzo. Right? Anyone..? Ok, it's just me.. xd

[@JHPraisian]

I totally agree with you. It’s just technical problem for the conductors.

[@bsdml]

Yeah, especially that last part: how to make it NOT sound like a triplet. In Beethoven's score, there is no accent mark above the second note of the motif, so at face value, it would seem one would play the three notes without it (and thus give them approximately "equal strength"). However, I'm with you: If I was conducting, I would give that second note more emphasis anyway. In other words, I would go ahead and insert an accent that ain't actually in there-lol. I would just try not make it sound too obvious :-)

[@markmuch1295]

PBS once showed a live performance of the 5th by the NY Philharmonic led by Kurt Masur that was the best I ever heard.

Well done, clearly explained, very useful for conductors or simple listeners! Thanks. And most of all, true! Sound changes inside our minds if the seconda fermata is shown. Kleiber is right, as he usually is...

[@burntsider8457]

Enlightening. I'm just a pop musician. I naively thought The Fifth was in 4/4 and the three ta-ta-tahs were a pickup. And the hold was 3.5 beats. Too much Jeff Lynne? Robert Wells? Thanks for the fine explanation. Cheers.

[@pradeepkheruka810]

I absolutely love what you are doing! This is very energising! I listen to the same composition performed by different conductors to hear their interpretation of what the composer wrote!😊

[@hrvojebartulovic7870]

It'd be interesting to hear your oppinion on different lenghts of pause between 1st and 2nd movement when executing `Mahler's 2nd!

[@markanthonychao2912]

When I count the Karajan one... the first fermata minim is virtually the same as 12 quavers in length. Then the second long note is exactly 16 quavers... so it is exactly longer than the first one by 4 quavers...and 4 quavers is the same length as a minim...Hence Karajan made the second long note EXACTLY one minim longer than the first...EXACTLY what Beethoven indicated in the score. I think your stop watch actually was paused too early when measuring the second long note.

[@yassinet.benchekroun5087]

Checks out with Karajan's craziness and his germannness hahahaha. Nice observation

[@andrewportman6028]

Thank you for a great video. What I would like to know, is about the first quaver rest before the 3 quaver notes. Why do conductors treat the first quaver as an accented note, as would be the case if those opening quavers were triplets? I would like to know your thoughts on the matter of meter for the opening of this symphony.

[@Michael-iw3ek]

wow very cool to do it with the timer.

[@woltri68]

Hello, this is a very interesting way to look at classical music and the way to interprete. Coming to this piece of music my favoutite recording of it is from the Vienna Philharmonics conducted by Leonard Bernstein from the mid 70s (77 I guess) In relation to this interpretation a recording conducted by i.e. Herbert von Karajan feels like its rushed through the piece in order to end it before dinner.

[@ulrichschmidt5559]

Interesting how tastes are different: just last week I gave away my Bernstein 1979 box of Beethoven's 9 Symphonies, because I didn't like it... 🙂 For example in the second movement of #4, there is a very lyric line given to the flute (e.g. in Karajan's 1962 recording, the flutes can be heard very beautifully), but in Bernstein's recording, there are no flutes!! Either he drowned them out (which would be bad conducting), or the recording equipment used in that session was not well-balanced and didn't capture the flutes?! In any case, I was very disappointed, that a famous conductor like Bernstein would commit such a mistake, or a well-respected recording company like Deutsche Gramophon would not not be more "professional" with its recording equipment. 😞

[@maurozanchetta648]

Wonderful video! What do you think of Celibidache's recording?

[@artursandwich1974]

Thanks for this short yet "pointiful" analysis. Where could one see you conduct?

[@TheAllstonians]

Fantastic!!! Was Kleiber counting during the second fermata?

[@johanmolin3213]

Hello Anna, thank you for an interesting episode! I am a perfect example of how times are changing for the worse all the time. My piano teacher in Sweden was a student in piano pedagogics in Berlin at the beginning of the last century for a German teacher. This woman in her turn was a student of Klara Schumann - who was a student of Franz Liszt, who was a student of Karl Czerny, who was a student of Ludwig van Beethoven. So apparently the quality gets worse over time ...😎 However, my piano teacher told me that a fermata should be about as long as the original note + half that (a half note with a fermata should be like 3/4 long). Do you recognize this, or is it REALLY up to anyone to interpret at will? Just curious, I don't know enough of music theory to formulate an opinion of my own.

[@RichardGreen422]

One thing that is really tough for community orchestras to get is that it is three eight notes instead of triplets.

[@muzluv33]

This is very true. I had an ear training teacher in college who beat this into us incessantly and it bore fruit. I am an organist and my teachers likewise were fastidious in this regard. I also wish to mention when one has a 2 against 3 (duple and triple) rhythm at the same time. Very challenging for a beginning musician or ensemble. One tends to have the second of the duple land on the last note of the triple - yet another challenge. To illustrate this, go to the exposition in the first movement of Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony (No.6) where Beethoven has duple rhythm in the violins and triple in the basses.

[@alanckay]

Thanks for bringing this up (I have a comment above about this that includes the emphases on the weak and strong beats.

[@rjones6219]

A curious loop on the fifth. Those opening beats, sound the same as morse code. In morse, they represent the English letter V. The letter V in Roman numerals is the number 5. 😊

[@martinpinola7859]

Very interesting topic and very good research. You have a new subscriber! 😊

[@clemenciarodner2339]

Thanks Anna. This was sooooo great!

[@lhpl]

One of the earliest songs by Electric Light Orchestra is a cover of Chuck Berry's _Roll Over Beethoven_ . Jeff Lynne, the genius who practically _is_ ELO, took inspiration from a Beatles cover of the dong. He also added quotations from the 5th symphony and a few other things. I wonder what you would think of the result?

[@embodiedconducting]

Nice job. I wish you would have addressed how conductors choose to hande the transition from m. 2 to 3 vs the transition from m.. 5 to 6. Is there a release after either fermata (or both)? If yes, what kind of release, quick or full?