Pathfinder (2e): Basics of Perception and Concealment

[@HowItsPlayed]

See here for more great videos on Pathfinder: kzbin.info/aero/PLYCDCUfG0xJb5I-wDIezuDkTfbd8k21Km Want to help support the channel? Get you name listed at the end of my videos by joining my Patreon : ▶️ www.patreon.com/HowItsPlayed/ Thank me with a cup of coffee! ▶️ ko-fi.com/HowItsPlayed

[@HowItsPlayed]

Interesting idea! I don't think that's been suggested before, but I know one of my players could benefit from that too. I'll add it to the list!

[@nicovelardita8619]

This could pass as a Paizo official guide. You not only explain the rules but the meaning behind them. Easily the best TTRPG guide I've seen

[@HowItsPlayed]

Thanks!

[@johnwhite2412]

Outstanding video. I appreciate the absence of cornball shtick. Great production value

[@HowItsPlayed]

Don't watch my early vids if you don't like cornball shtick. It was a phase... I got through it. LOL

[@Johni_54321]

These are like educational videos. I kind of like it.

[@R1ck_Ryder]

Cough cough nonat1

[@Breakfst4dinner]

Probably the first thing in pathfinder I'm struggling to master but probably because 5e is so vague in comparison. Video is incredibly helpful thank you!

[@Klatchan]

I'm DMing for the first time ever, and these videos are helping a LOT. Thanks!

[@HowItsPlayed]

You're welcome! And good luck!!

[@jwolfman1993]

These videos help me so very much. The page number in the bottom left it the cherry on top! Keep up the amazing work!!!

[@HowItsPlayed]

Including the page number was a suggestion from a viewer. An easy fix and I agree, it adds a lot.

[@ollywright]

Very clear! And a brilliant example with the barrel.

[@kschleic9053]

This is an incredible exploration of a complex topic:) this playlist is going to be required study material for my Pathfinder 2e group;)

[@bokajon]

These videos are such a blessing! I'm currently preparing an adventure and I keep coming back to your videos to see how certain concepts work. Thanks so much for your fantastic explanations!

[@HowItsPlayed]

Thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate it!

[@drunemeton]

What a great video! So many factors to consider, all throughly explained. Thank you.

[@HowItsPlayed]

You're very welcome!

[@KermodeBear]

Schrodinger's Goblin now has a permanent place in my lexicon.

[@needtv1]

Very helpful, that summary tied it all in nicely. lol. wow! what a minefield. But I KNOW the minefield now. Schroddinger's Goblin, genius.

[@Dragoon876]

Let's be honest, the second the goblin stops being unnoticed, I'd fireball the room lol

[@Classic_DM]

Great videos as always. You have cool style going helping players learn the game and some of its more confusing rules. Great script, clean PPTX visuals, outlining, and pacing that most college professors should be taking notes on. :)

[@HowItsPlayed]

Thanks! Means a lot coming from you -- I very much enjoy your videos too!

[@Classic_DM]

@@HowItsPlayed Thanks. I love what you're doing and will spread the word. Your content is awesome.

[@HowItsPlayed]

@@Classic_DM I appreciate it!

[@edwardmaldonado5755]

the best video on the subject

[@charlesgray6385]

Fantastic video man. Everything clear as can be - pun intended.

[@Kevlar-78]

Excellent content as always ! I owe you a beer for this one ! Can't wait for the rest in this series.

[@CraigSteinhoff]

Great video...I was having troubled with this concept but you cleared it all up.

[@HowItsPlayed]

Glad I could help!

[@jasonshortt7]

Excellent video. I'd point out that if the players are accusing the DM of cheating, there might be a lack of trust that needs to be addressed. That's why I roll out in the open most of the time (except for these types of secret checks). If your players trust you, they won't ever accuse you of cheating.

[@KevShaw808]

This video was awesome. Thank you so much for making this!

[@williamcullen8756]

Just sent this to my gaming group ... fantastic explanation.

[@HowItsPlayed]

Thanks!!

[@RadeFoxxy]

Awesome video and series, it's been indispensable to me!

[@SerDerpish]

This is an awesome playlist; glad I came across it. Liked and subbed 👍🏽

[@InUtahNotOfUtah]

Excellent video. Thanks!

[@HowItsPlayed]

You're welcome!

[@bocollider]

Absolutely wonderful explanations. Thank you so much.

[@johnharrison2086]

This is great and very helpful!

[@HowItsPlayed]

Glad it helped!

[@davidwilliams4837]

GREAT channel. Thank you.

[@HowItsPlayed]

You're very welcome!

[@legithopecrew]

You say that a torch has a range of bright light out to 20 feet towards the beginning of the video but your visual prompts (as well as a line from you audibly at the end) state that bright light is working 30 feet of a torch. Love your videos!

[@HowItsPlayed]

Thanks -- I rolled a Natural 1 during the Summary. Torches produce Bright Light for 20 feet, not 30. I've added a pop-up in the corner correcting this to avoid future confusion.

[@legithopecrew]

@@HowItsPlayed thanks man! Your guys videos are awesome and I been a fan for a while! Keep it up!

[@HowItsPlayed]

Thanks for watching!

[@entheo302]

Thanks for making this. Just getting into the game and I appreciate the tutorials!

[@HowItsPlayed]

You're very welcome. And welcome to Pathfinder!

[@tukkerintensity5575]

Awesome. You are great at explaining things!

[@HowItsPlayed]

Thanks! Glad it was helpful!

[@lebonzo]

Hello! Are the summary screens you put together available as documents? PPT or PDF maybe?

[@theenoogie]

Super helpful!

[@RollForCombat]

Your summary states bright light is within 30’ of a torch, yet the description of a torch is “Torch: A torch sheds bright light in a 20-foot radius (and dim light to the next 20 feet).” You also mention that stat earlier in your video.

[@HowItsPlayed]

Thanks for pointing that out -- the summary should state "within 20' of a torch."

[@Wyldheart7]

Great video!

[@skellan9702]

Superb

[@mattlievens3573]

One thing worth mentioning is that the precise, imprecise, and vague, senses aren't necessarily consistent across all creatures, for instance wolves smell sense is imprecise rather than vague. Idk if there are any ancestries with a similar trait, but I'm sure it's not outside the realm of possibility.

[@Classic_DM]

Superb video series. Ideal to share with your players before you run a game when they are coming from 5E and don't read :)

[@HowItsPlayed]

I'd be out of business if everyone read their books!

[@RottenMechGaming]

Thanks again for great clarity. I would say personally from a language perspective using Unnoticed, Undetected, Hidden and Observed is a challenge in language. Especially if you then throw in Concealed as a condition that can apply whilst something is observed. Language wise the words Unnoticed and Undetected are very close. I know I will mix them up during a game unless I really concentrate. I may have used Unseen instead of Unnoticed, although I appreciate there are other senses or even Hidden to swap in instead of unnoticed. I am starting my 2e campaign next week and very enthusiastic about getting started, the players have also bought the rules which is a good sign they are keen to play. However this nuanced use of words and language feels wrong, even if I agree the mechanics make sense! :) I think my vote would be to change unnoticed to hidden and swap the current hidden word to obscured but I will adopt the rules as written of course. Then you would have the chain of words in order of how noticed something is: 1/ Hidden. (Given that the first status is something players and monsters use as stealth to attempt to "hide", it feels like hidden would be a natural word used for the first status because you just attempted to hide and now you are hidden that feels logical use of language and everyone else is completely unaware the monster or PC is there) 2/ Undetected 3/ Obscured (replaces the word hidden because to me language wise it feels odd that you can know exactly where a target is whilst it is hidden, obscured feels more natural english to describe that you know where something is but it is obscured from view) 4/ Observed

[@xezzee]

Obscured soubds more like Consealed. You are harder to se but not Hidden while Hidden means they can't see you jutyoukkow where they are. Also unnoticed means you have not been noticed which to me is totally different what Hidden means. My vuew point comes from Garrys Mod cgame mode called Hidden from around 2010 😂 you are invisible jumping and killing others always being Hidden.

[@brunoalbuquerque4983]

Great video and super helpful with the slightly obtuse perception (and consequently stealth) mechanics of the game! Tiny correction that doesn't truly matter as there can be an argument for the way you presented, but technically speaking hiding an object on your person is the Conceal an Object action, using Stealth, and not the Palm an Object action, which is more geared toward subtly stealing unattended objects (while the Steal action is geared toward attended objects). That said, this neither ruins your point (they both go against Perception DC) nor is it entirely incorrect, as I could easily see a GM ruling a more active hiding of an object as Palming it. It's the difference between hiding a knife in your shoe and actively using manual dexterity to palm a card for a magic trick; I just wanted to leave a comment explaining the technical RAW differences of those actions, since I find them all interesting and often underused.

[@UkeToru-o5f]

Pathfinder is so underrated. Just look at the viewership. But goddamn everything is so fleshed out.

[@drowzypollinator640]

If you or your players prefer non-secret rolls, or at least having the players roll their checks, I find it acceptable to still not give them an outcome, but allow them to have confidence or lack thereof because of the number they rolled. For instance, when stabbing through a barrel at shrodinger's goblin, you do not tell the player if they fail the flat check, you do not tell the player if they missed, but you might tell them, you plunge your blade through the wood of the barrel with some resistance. You withdraw your blade from the barrel. They decide their own level of confidence based on their roll, and you might support that with small description differences. A higher roll might see your blade cut through the barrel with ease. A lower roll might be more of a struggle. A creature would have some level of confidence whether they hit it good or bad, but they would be unsure on the level of success. Same with perception, you know when it's hard to hear or see something and when your senses are clear, but you don't know whether you were successful or not. All the more surprising when you roll a nat 18, you're confident that you would've seen the creature of it were there, but it rolled a nat 20 stealth. >:)

[@UkeToru-o5f]

I now identify myself as a Pathfinder player. These are the things I am exactly looking for.

[@TheGiantRobot]

Schrodinger's goblin, I love it!

[@danepatterson8107]

I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to watch this one again later. It's great, but it's covering ground that is very complicated for a roleplaying game: just another reason to love 2e!

[@huwevans7710]

I have an issue that's been brought up after playing the fall of plaguestone AP with certain monsters senses that I was hoping you could clarify. If you are familiar with the bloodrack bushes in the AP you will have probably heard that they are meant to be blind with tremorsense (imprecise) as they're only listed sense so they wouldneed to roll flat checks to hit any PC's. However I'm reading that oozes have no vision (correctly listed) and have motion sense. Is motion sense an imprecise sense and should I have been treating my PC's as hidden in regards to black puddings and sewer oozes etc?

[@matthewkeen3527]

Seek is one action. Can you perform multiple Seek actions in the same round since you get three actions? I see it states the GM rolls a single roll but it also mentions areas in the Seek action in regards to a precision check 30’ cone or 15’ burst. This could indicate you can get more than one seek action per round based on that. Search three different 30’ cones for three actions or Seek in a 15’ burst, Stride, then Seek again in a 15’ burst.

[@HowItsPlayed]

By RAW, sure -- you can Seek three times. And in most cases I can't see it being a problem, but this could open the doors to metagaming. But making sure the GM rolls the checks in secret would help offset that.

[@scottburns8690]

Around 18:55 when the character uses the Seek action versus the hidden goblin (let's say a Goblin Warrior), does the goblin roll a Stealth check adding its Stealth bonus (+5), or is the check versus the Goblin's stealth DC (which would be 15)? If it's just the Stealth DC (15), which situations would require the goblin to roll and Stealth check? I'm confused on this. Thanks!

[@scottburns8690]

The reason I ask this is because I just watched the "Basics of Initiative and Surprise" video where the goblins hiding by the road rolled their Stealth checks, contested by the players' Perception DCs. Thanks!

[@umarthdc]

As far as I know there are no contested rolls in pf2e. There always is an active roll and a passive DC. So if the goblin is sneaking they roll stealth vs the player's perception DC, if the players are seeking they roll perception against the goblin s stealth DC.

[@scottburns8690]

@@umarthdc Ah, ok I see. Thank you!

[@rylandrc]

19:09 : "A barrel in the corner strikes you as suspicious, so you walk up and stab your longsword through the barrel" Would the GM tell the player that the barrel is suspicious? Or would the Player decide that a random barrel seems suspicious to them? If the player chooses a barrel to attack that is on the opposite side of the room as to where the goblin actually is, can they never succeed at the attack roll/flat check the undetected condition, since the goblin is nowhere near the attack check? Or would the goblins actual location in the room change based on whether the attack hits? If the second is true, then couldn't a player influence where in the room the goblin is, and take advantage of this by choosing a side of the room to attack that is less advantageous to the goblin? For example, a player could choose to attack a barrel in a corner of the room where the players can surround/corner the goblin on a successful hit, cutting off it's path of escape.

[@HowItsPlayed]

The GM might tell the player the barrel looks suspicious. That, and why it looks suspicious, are entirely the GM's call to make. Investigators, for example, can gain an ability that allows them to notice something odd when they enter a room. But, of course, the player may think a barrel looks out of place too. The goblin's actual place in the room wouldn't change... the GM always knows exactly where the goblin is. If the player stabs the wrong barrel, they automatically fail because the goblin isn't there to be hit in the first place. The key is that the player doesn't know that. The roll is made in secret and all they know is that they did not stab a goblin. They don't know if they didn't stab one because they missed or because the goblin wasn't even there.

[@rylandrc]

@@HowItsPlayed Thanks!!

[@HuseyinCinar]

I’m curious about the interaction between “Observed but Concealed” and “Has Cover”. Can someone explain more?

[@xezzee]

Enemy who is in Dim-Light is Obesrved and consealed if players have no extra help on vision (darkvision). Enemy strides behind cover now has cover, is consealed and observed all at once. You can try to hide when consealed and/or behind cove or greater cover. But can't hide behind lesser cover, like a friend. Difference is that cover bonus is also added to the stelth roll (if I read it right) so you get +2 or +4 to the roll to hide while behind cover or creater cover unlike just being consealed. Did this help?

[@beningram1811]

I would say that touch is a precise sense, but it doesn't have range. If you're in contact with something you can tell it's precise location (and also a lot of other details).

[@TroySeward]

Thank you I enjoy your videoes.

[@HowItsPlayed]

You're welcome -- thanks for watching!

[@userAS456]

Schrodinger's goblin - to hit or not to hit.

[@patrickpullman8348]

Question; are the flat check and attack roll 2 separate rolls or are they combined in one roll, as in it doesn't matter what the creature's AC is, a roll of 10 or less automatically misses undetected or hidden?

[@HowItsPlayed]

They are separate rolls.

[@patrickpullman8348]

Thank you 😊

[@Kevlar-78]

Great video. One question. In the scenario where either the target is hidden or concealed and the player must make the flat check, if they fail, they still have to use an action as if they were attacking , correct ? IE, I fail the flat check as a player, I can't decide NOT to attack right ? Or do you do the flat check after the attack roll ?

[@HowItsPlayed]

The attack still happens and any ammo, actions or other resources are lost. It's just ruled as a miss.

[@Randomdudefromtheinternet]

In a situation where a creature has a higher AC than the DC for the flat check, makes me think that it could be weaponized by using a smokestick and just attacking at the cloaked creature, has anyone done this? What are the results?

[@SquatLife]

I was thinking the same thing. Darn Dragon has a AC 30. Time to close my eyes and start swinging cause then I just need to get an 11 or higher. OR is it meant that first you have to get the FLAT check 11. If you do that roll a normal attack and see if it beats the AC?

[@lergof0202]

Would the Goblin have cover if he was hiding in the barrel?

[@astrid2432]

question about schrödingers Goblin: what if I grab, lift and then throw the barrel? or if I attack the barrel and not the inside of the barrel or even use a weapon, who would destroy it too, like with a sledgehammer? How would it play out`? I think the first one would be like, the gm tells you, the barrel is heavy or not. you may figure then out, if something is inside, but you can't tell if it's true, as it can be just like potato or the enemy is too light to be weighted too much. and if you throw it, you may destroy the barrel, damaging the goblin and revealing it or the potatos inside by attacking the barrel, you don't need the flat DC check, as you can see the barrel, and if you destroy ir or break it enough, you may see the goblin or the potato inside just not sure about the last one, as you would hit the barrel with yoru attack and sure will break it apart with a huge hammer, of course breaking/destroying thresholds are important here

[@Ether165]

So I have a question. A group walks into a brightly lit room where a goblin is hiding behind a barrel. A member of the party does a seek action to check the room. His check beats the stealth DC... but the goblin only goes to hidden and then roll initiative? Does the goblin still roll stealth even though the party knows he is there? After initiative is rolled, a member of the party goes first and doesn’t want to pass a flat check... so he seeks again? He moves close enough to the barrel to ignore cover and make a melee strike?

[@HowItsPlayed]

A lot of this is up to the GM to decide... like when to roll initiative or what the goblin rolls for his initiative. I think, generally speaking, the moment the players know they are in the same space as an enemy, then Exploration Mode ends and Encounter Mode begins. So if the goblin was hostile, and they succeed on a Seek action and know he's there, then yes, I would call for initiative to be rolled. If the goblin wasn't hostile, or was "playing opossum", then I would not call for an Initiative check yet. As for what to roll, that again will be up to the GM to decide. And there are a lot of variables that might go into making that decision, but for what it's worth I do not think I would have the Goblin roll Stealth if he's been detected. If the players had failed their Seek Actions, and then the Goblin jumped out to attack them, then he'd definitely roll Stealth for initiative. In the last bit, if the player moves around the barrel so that it no longer grants cover, and he can clearly see the space the goblin is in, then there is no need to spend an action to Seek. He would automatically Observe the goblin in that case and could make his Strike without passing a flat check.

[@douglasgallop7171]

I am a little confused. All the perception examples used flat checks. When do you apply your modifiers?

[@skyler9643]

When you look for a creature using the seek action normally.

[@CaligoCastra]

I am wondering... First: Is it possible to "train" a imprecise sense? Let's say, a Human (no darkvision or low-light vision) trains their hearing to be better able to fight in the dark Or a dwarf trains their tremorsense to be better able to navigate caves for mining or whatnot Second: If one loses a sense "forever" (hit by a blindness/ deafness and got shitty luck with the dices) do they just lose the sense and are fucked or (like in the real world) they "gain" another sense to help replace the lost one?

[@HowItsPlayed]

To the best of my knowledge there are no rules for what you're describing, so it would be up to the GM to decide if the character's hearing or other sense helps (but certainly wouldn't elevate to being a precise sense unless they're Daredevil). However, there are a lot of Assistive Devices in Pathfinder than can help characters with a disability be as effective while adventuring as anyone else. Here is a list that might help you: pf2easy.com/tree/index.php?id=18888&name=Assistive_Items

[@HowItsPlayed]

Also, there are some feats, like Blind-Fight, that can help.

[@retrodmray]

I don't know that this belongs here at all, but what happens when a character is either temporarily or permanently blinded? How do they then perceive, move, attack, etc....per RAW vs how you'd rule it? Thnx!!

[@WealthBeyondMeasure]

A blinded character is losing their (probably) only precise sense- that means they'll never be able to observe anything, only have them hidden. So you might know that someone is *roughly* in a certain space based on your hearing, for example, but you'd always have to make flat checks to hit them because you can't tell their precise location just by listening. There are some fun feats for certain characters that can enhance the power of hearing or smell, though.

[@retrodmray]

@@WealthBeyondMeasure Thnx!

[@LionKingGod]

My questions would be: Do you need a seek action to go from hidden to undetected or is it automatic? For example, if the Goblin in your example decided to sneak away, but stopped his sneak right in the middle of the room, does your character automatically sees it? What about attacks?

[@HowItsPlayed]

If the goblin ended its movement in the middle of the room, it would automatically be detected (no Seek action needed). Because in order to make the Stealth Check for Sneak you need to have cover or the Concealed condition at the end of your movement (page 252, third paragraph). If it was sneaking behind a row of crates, it would have cover and be able to make the check. If it was in Dim Light (and the PC didn't have Low-Light or Darkvision), he would have Concealment and be able to make the check. If the goblin ended its move in clear view, then it would instantly be Observed by the PC. Therefore, the PC would not be flat-footed against its attacks, and on the PC's turn it could attack the goblin without a penalty.

[@LionKingGod]

@@HowItsPlayed Thanks a lot for the quick reply. So this means that the PCs have a 360 vision? Do you need the stealth movement to always be behind cover or does it only need to end behind one? If my rogue decided he'd sneak up to a creature to sneak attack it, how would that work? GM's discretion?

[@HowItsPlayed]

PCs don't literally have 360 vision, but there are no Facing rules in Pathfinder. If a creature is alert, it's assumed they are paying attention to everything around them, but that's still largely up to the GM to interpret. For example, if a wizard was in their study and completely engrossed in their research, I might let a Rogue sneak up on them from behind without cover or the Concealed condition. But, by RAW, the wizard should notice the Rogue if they end their move in plain view. A Deception Check could also be used to Create a Diversion and let you Sneak without cover or the Concealed condition. As for the Sneak attack, check out the text for "Success" on page 252. "If you attempt to Strike a creature, that creature remains flat-footed against that attack, and you then become Observed."

[@LionKingGod]

@@HowItsPlayed Great to know, thanks a lot.

[@Daexusnol]

What happens if you crit-succeed a Seek Action with an Imprecise sense, when the thing you’re using Seek against is Undetected or Hidden?

[@brunoalbuquerque4983]

You would not be able to make them Observed, since that's a hard rule of imprecise senses. If you're trying to hear where an invisible creature is, the best you can do is pinpoint a square (thus going from undetected to hidden), but you couldn't make it any higher than that, no matter what you roll - unless you have some way of making hearing a precise sense, like a bat's echolocation.

[@HuevoBendito]

So, I use Roll20 for my GMing. How would you all suggest I run secret rolls? Should I just keep a list of all the players' modifiers for ease of use?

[@HowItsPlayed]

Good question... I don't play virtually, so I guess I never thought about it. I think I'd just handle it the same as at my local table though. I just ask them for their modifier and roll it behind the screen, so they feel active in the round. But I do like to track it separately so that I know what their Perception DC's are... because they won't necessarily know when an NPC is rolling against that.

[@Kevlar-78]

Yeah. Keep a cheat sheet of their scores, but you can also use /gmroll I think (or something along those lines) to roll in secret

[@tabunga4669]

There's a pretty big argument amongst my 30+ year players and I. They say magic missile ignores the flat check for concealment. They say if they can see the target MM hits automatically. While I WOULD agree the concealed condition states that everything except area affects are subject to it attacks, spells etc. Help?

[@HowItsPlayed]

The Concealed condition requires there to be a roll, but because there is no attack roll or saving throw for magic missile, concealment does not interact with it. So no flat check when casting Magic Missile against a concealed target.

[@tabunga4669]

@@HowItsPlayed no it doesn't. This is where MY argument comes in is that concealment DOES NOT require a roll. It says "when you target" and concealed says "you're harder to target" MM requires you to observe someone and concealment grants that, you CAN see the creature but are HARDER to target. Do you see where I'm coming from? MM doesnt specify it ignores this and Paizo hasn't clarified this but RAW says it doesn't work like previous editions. CONCEALMENT While you are concealed from a creature, such as in a thick fog, you are difficult for that creature to see. You can still be observed, but you’re tougher to target. A creature that you’re concealed from must succeed at a DC 5 flat check when targeting you with an attack, spell, or other effect. Area effects aren’t subject to this flat check. If the check fails, the attack, spell, or effect doesn’t affect you.

[@tabunga4669]

@@HowItsPlayed It also means suggestion, paralyze and spells alike are also affected by this. Theres no attack roll but if it's not an area affect then it should be subject to dc 5 flat check. Making concealment very valuable in this game. Pf1 said anything less than total concealment those spells bypassed but thats not a thing in this edition

[@HowItsPlayed]

@@tabunga4669 I see what you're saying. That's an interesting contradiction... the text you're referring to on page 618 says the check is made when being targeted by a spell. But the text on page 467 (that I was referring to) says "When you target a creature that’s concealed from you, you must attempt a DC 5 flat check _before you roll_ to determine your effect." Specifically calling for a roll., with no mention of the penalty applying when being targeted. So, I guess it's up to the GM to make the call, unless an official ruling is made.

[@tabunga4669]

@@HowItsPlayed could be a damage roll from magic missile. Doesnt say attack roll.

[@jeth3540]

Exact perception doesn't matter if you just fireball the general area, got it.

[@hodldawg]

Curiously I don't see anything resembling a Blind Fighting feat. I didn't notice it's absence until I finished your video.

[@HowItsPlayed]

Check out "Blind-Fight" on page 149. It's an 8th level feat available to Fighters, Rangers, and Rogues. You can also get the affects of Blind-Fight with the Mummified Bat magic item (page 568).

[@AlbertoRodriguez-zb3iu]

So...is it cheating if a DM doesn't role anything for a seek action and just tells you "there's nothing." But a few moments later you're attacked by a kobold that was hidden in the area?

[@HowItsPlayed]

I come from the school of thought that the GM is empowered to do whatever they think is best to provide a fun game for the players. And therefore, it's impossible for the GM to "cheat". That said, Perception checks are always rolled in secret, so in cases like this the GM should probably make the roll behind their screen and and say, "you don't see anything," regardless of the outcome of the roll.

[@AlbertoRodriguez-zb3iu]

@@HowItsPlayed I disagree that the GM has this "empowerment" over the game. The primary role of the GM is not to be arbitrary, the GM is a judge and storyteller of the game...he should not mold the games outcome on a whim, that's bad GMing. True that a GM has to take control for the good of the game but when a player preforms an action and the DM doesn't role anything to then go the opposite direction there's no way that the players aren't going to feel cheated (that statement that the GM can't cheat? He's the one who can and little can be said about it when the players realize it, many call this railroading instead of cheating), and that's no fun.

[@xezzee]

The Kobold would have rolled the stealth vs player's stealth dc before hand and if succesful Dm would say you see nothing only for Kobold to jump on you later. The roll to avoid notice often happens earlier before the Dm tells "There's nothing." Thus you might even not know a roll was even made. Tough what alrrady said the DM should always make the roll even if he decided that the kobold succeds. There is a bit of confusion if you can seek enemies as exploration activity and can you seek both traps and enemies as Seek itself wont allow that. I rule you can seek enemies allowin you to get hidden perception roll vs stealth dc to notice hidden enemies. Both the hiding enemy and you seeking use those rolls for initiative. There is also the question what happens if players go first and enemy is unnoticed? GmG p.11 is broken rule that says all enemies would become undetected but not unnoticed only yothe creature who acts before anyone else and there are no enemies. But if enemy goes first and takes delay action what is player supposed to do? I usually rule that all enemies being unnoticed means they go before players. Also if all players succeed avoid notice they go before all enemies. The downside is that no one is seeking traps 😂 good luck.

[@xezzee]

Question: if enemy is not unnoticed but is undetected is DM require to tell the players about that because else enemy would be unnoticed? Like when you listen behind door and there is group of enemies talking DM would say you hear them but what if they are sleeping? Follow up important question: How exactl should DM be when implying about 7 goblins who are undetected jut not unnoticed? The idea is simple. Combat "ends" and players have kiled 14 out of 21 goblins while rest went hiding and sneaked away. Half of the 7 stay in the room unnoticed while others left the room. Question three: when do you gain Unnoticed once it is lost? 😂 there were no rules for this? Is it up to Dm? Those three questions are unclear for me.

[@HowItsPlayed]

If the players have no reason to believe there are enemies present, then those enemies are "Unnoticed." There aren't any hard, mechanical rules for when this condition goes away or returns after it's been lost. "Like when you listen behind door and there is group of enemies talking DM would say you hear them but what if they are sleeping?" If the players would have reason to believe enemies might be present, then they are not "Unnoticed", but would still be "Undetected." If the players are sneaking through a dungeon, then the enemies would likely not be "Unnoticed", because that's a dangerous place and they have reason to believe enemies could be anywhere. If the enemies are sleeping in the players' bedroom, and they just came home and have no reason to believe enemies are in their house, then they're likely relaxed and the enemies would be "Unnoticed." Either way, if they hear them through the door, then they would not be "Unnoticed." "How exactl should DM be when implying about 7 goblins who are undetected jut not unnoticed?" That depends on how you describe the scene. You wouldn't literally say, "there are 7 goblins in the cave that are Undetected." But you might say, "you hear chittering, high-pitched voices echoing around the dark chamber in fits of laughter mocking you." The players know something is present, but not exactly where it is, so the enemy is "Undetected." "when do you gain Unnoticed once it is lost?" Once the players no longer have any reason to believe an enemy might be present, those enemies gain "Unnoticed."

[@LoLGrimfyre]

Wouldnt the dm making all these rolls in secret make it unfun to the player. I play dnd 5e and the player always rolls perception and investigation. If they didnt then they would be sitting there while the dm constantly rolls.

[@charlesgray6385]

Depends how willing you are to allow metagaming. Hidden checks have been a large part of TTRPGs for a long time but recently they’ve been pushed to the curb a little. Players are still role playing their results so it won’t be very long that they aren’t “playing”. You can always let them roll it if you want, just be wary of the rabbit hole it opens up.

[@Keyastian]

Hey, thanks for the video, very helpful. I'm new to PF2e and your content is helping alot! Thanks again. One question: in that same scenario a goblin was hiding behind a crate, lets say a big crate, what would happen if the player used the seek action, but with the vision sense, and it rolled a sucess or critical sucess, even with thte goblin behind a big crate?? Thanks in Adv!

[@HowItsPlayed]

I think the result would be largely up to the GM. For clarification, in the video's example the goblin was inside the barrel, not behind it. This in an important distinction because of how cover/concealment works. But, if the goblin was behind the barrel, then it would receive a bonus to its Stealth DC equal to the cover bonus provided by the barrel. If the player beats that on their Perception check, then yes, they would spot the goblin. And if the goblin was inside the barrel and the player critically succeeded their check, I would give it to them. On that critical success, they may not be able to see the goblin, but they would notice things like disturbed dust next to the barrel, or they can tell the lid of the barrel has recently been pried up due to fresh scuff marks or bent nails on it. That sort of thing.

[@drabheart9426]

Im pretty sure a "stealth dc" isnt rolled. its just 10 + mods

[@unclegeorge5644]

great thnx

[@HowItsPlayed]

Most welcome!

[@ren_dhark]

Schroedinger's Goblin (-;

[@yohahn12]

Having some of these summaries to print etc would be pretty neat :P

[@bobsterclause342]

Now you can check multiple times without metagaming I try again more than once. I probably failed in my aproach if I don't find.

[@eltrox1]

I can't find a specific video about the concealment rule, the rule seems very very underwhelming. The rule days to make the DC 5 flat check before the actual dicerole. In other words: the first roll , if it's a 5 or less, doesn't even let you hit, but normally a rolled 5 would be too low anyways to hit, even if it was on your normal attack roll. This just doesn't make any sense. If you are level 20 and fight a concealed goblin, which you would critically hit on a 1 because of modifiers (1makes it a normal hit, but you kill it anyways), now all of a sudden 1/4 hits automatically misses. Compare this to a boss encounter at any lvl. You mostly need to Roll really high,maybe 12+, so rolling a 5or lower on the flat check would have missed if it was your normal attack, but of you get a 6 on the flat check you can try again to get a 12, or maybe even a 20 for that sweet Krit. This just feels stupid, like it increases your odds against high lvl enemies which are concealed against you, but lowers the against low level noobs😂😂

[@eltrox1]

Wouldn't it make way more sense to roll the flat check afterwards? It would alter the "to hit chances" drastically, or is the math in my head way off because it's 0:01pm

[@xezzee]

​@@eltrox1A flat vheck 5 as in you need 5 or more to hit. That is 20% chance to miss or 1/5th when enemy is consealed. Lvl 20 dragon has 20% chance to miss the lvl1 villager who is concealed by hiding in push. It is no different for the villager to be hidden beside the chance to miss being 50%. Tough it is hard to be consealed against high level party but also that is why Darkvision is powerful preventing a flat check even happening in dim-light or darkness. You can roll to hit after the flat check and double crit but you miss the target because you didn't see them so well to actually hit them! Concealed 20% misss chance. Hidden 50% miss chance. Undetected 50% miss chance + guess the square.

[@bunnystick]

Perception sounds like the new grapple check lol

[@Akeche]

Man. I'll admit, some of it feels very redundant.