HS252 Givenergy solar and battery 12 months review

[@TheRecreationalMachinist]

Interesting stuff Paul. You clearly know your onions, chose wisely and are seeing the performance you were hoping for. I wonder how many people are duped into systems that not well suited to there needs (or roof space and direction) and never really know because they're not as on the ball. I'd love to see further updates in the future, maybe as your panels and batteries age a bit. It seems a no-brainer that panels should be fitted to new builds by default (and solar heat tubes for that matter)

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Matt, age about 82 my dad bought solar panels 5 east and 5 west. Cost £7000. We thought he had been conned by a sharp salesman. As it turned out he got the Feed-in Tariff where the Govt paid a handsome credit for every kWh generated (not just paid for export as it is now). He lived to 92, so definitely he would have been making money. The panels degrade about 0.5% per year and the battery is warranted to retain 70% capacity for 12 years with unlimited 100% depth charging and discharging cycles. If the battery does not maintain sufficient capacity we get compensation on a sliding scale. Panels have a 15 year warranty. Cheers

[@markrainford1219]

@@HaxbyShed Your Dad was clearly an optimist! I'm umming and arring about it at sixty, and I can do all the work myself.

[@LeeJonesNPT]

Hi Paul, I had my system installed in Sept 2023 your previous videos helped me make that decision. My system installation of 5.22kw of solar panels and a GIV Energy 9.5 kw battery and 5.2kw hybrid inverter has proven to be reliable and efficient (although i have had issues with Wi-Fi drop out losing connection to the inverter and app ), since May when the solar production really increased i have also been setting to fixed export/discharge of the battery between 21.30 and 23.30hrs which has been very successful in terms of increasing my income/decreasing my bill. I have an EV as well so overall my household costs in terms of managing my monthly expenses have reduced significantly albeit i have bought the car and PV battery system. I am not solely interested in the return of my investments as some comments have made but in securing my energy supply and managing to smooth out the increased costs of fuel and energy costs in my retirement. The DFS programme throughout the winter also earned significant income that i was not expecting. The combination of my installation, EV and Octopus intelligent go tariff has been very successful. Thanks for the input again.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Lee, thanks for the report. I've had my system almost 16 months now. I no longer look at the stats every day, or even every week, because I know what a year looks like. When I bought my system the Givenergy Gen 2 inverter had only been out a month or so and there were a few firmware updates needed to get it right. I received a firmware update near the end of June 2023 that boosted my solar output about 20% - which just underlines the benefit of being able to initiate your own updates without having to call out an installer. When people ask me what system to choose obviously I cannot say but I always do say make sure the App gives full control and make sure you can get all the firmware updates by "self service". I too subscribed to GivBack (DFS service) but recently I joined a pilot scheme which lets Givenergy take power from my battery any time it wants. I won't make a fortune but still it's a bonus I had never expected. Solar panel prices continue to fall and I think the next gen panels will be approaching 30% efficient (currently about 21% efficient). I'm still on Octopus Economy 7 (we don't have an EV) but the night rate is down to about 11p per kWh now and Octopus have renewed my fixed export tariff at 15p/kWh for a 2nd year. So, I always charge my battery overnight to 100% and then when the sun comes up I'm always exporting what I don't use in the house. Charging at 11p and exporting at 15p is always making money, even allowing for some inefficiency. Batteries will get cheaper. In my view solar, if you can, is a no brainer. Cheers Paul

[@andrewdolinskiatcarpathian]

Hi Paul. We had solar installed in December 2023 and have been very pleased to see how much energy we have generated and indeed “sold” back to the grid. In April our monetary payback was greater than our grid charge. We are very pleased with our decision to go with a battery and have no regrets. Thank you for your own overview. 👍😀

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Andrew, some countries get more sun than others. 😁 Here we are still in gloom nevertheless our solar gen is picking quickly as we move through the year. April generated 599kWh for us. From that we exported 407kWh. We might get to break even in May. But our export contract ends in May and it's likely our next contract price will be lower (paid less for export). Cheers

[@GeoffHome-u6r]

Excellent clear presentation, and extremely useful, thanks Paul

[@HaxbyShed]

Thank you Geoff. I forgot to say on that video that winter is all about the battery and summer is all about the panels. Winter is when the battery pays for itself - cheap charge at night. Cheers

[@joffster79]

Brilliant video Paul 👍

[@HaxbyShed]

Thanks👍

[@Workshopfriend]

Thanks, Paul. Very interesting to see the chart and economics. They were more favourable than I was expecting - even over such a wet and grey winter.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Clive for us the payback on the panels is quite a bit shorter than the battery but so much depends on tariffs and individual usage. House batteries are expensive still relative to car batteries per kWh but house batteries are not yet produced in the same volumes. They will get cheaper. Cheers

[@markgarnett3521]

I too like the graph. A nice enhancement would be to separate the incoming electricity costs (I assume cheaper at night)

[@HaxbyShed]

@@markgarnett3521 Hi Mark, the app and the web portal are brim full of data and charts. If you put in your tariff info (in fact for some tariffs it will pull it from your energy supplier automatically) then there is a chart showing where your energy is used against a timeline with the tariff price overlay. Then you can see at a glance, in half hour slots.

[@TheAyrCaveShop]

Thanks for the information Paul. That's quite a bit of variables to track and analyze, nicely done. So far in my location the numbers haven't worked out for our home, so I'm still on the grid.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Dean, we cannot run off-grid with our system. It just reduces what we take from the grid. I see California is catching up to Texas for solar install now ..... a true teaser 😁

[@TheAyrCaveShop]

@@HaxbyShed I guess I should have specified I'm 100% grid powered "no solar". All our heating and stove are N-gas and our electric use for just the wife and I is modest. Even with the tax credit my payback is about 25-30 years at the current rates. It makes sense for our neighbors with large families and heavy appliance use. I have nothing against solar, it just doesn't work numerically for everyone. LOL I think we're the Tesla car and Solar capitol of the world. Cheers....

[@HaxbyShed]

@@TheAyrCaveShop Hi Dean, I absolutely get it now. If you don't use much you can't save much that's the paradox. We are possibly a little above the average users of electricity with electric stove and hob, air fryer, electric showers, washer etc. The only thing gas is the heating and a tiny bit of instant domestic hot water. In the summer we really just pay the standing charge for gas (almost no usage at all).

[@Warped65er]

Quite interesting, especially your breakdown of how the system operates.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi W65er, some systems give more data and control than others. The Givenergy system seems particularly good for both. They also have a car charger that is fully integrated with the solar controls. Also our energy supplier Octopus is one of the most innovative of the UK suppliers. They have intelligent tariffs which communicate with the solar inverter and the car charger to get best prices. You can set "charge my car by 7am" and the system will charge at times when the energy cost is lowest, which may vary from day to day. It's all getting very clever. Cheers

[@TurnWrightEngineering-xo1yg]

Thanks for that Stu, been looking at this for some time....

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi TWE, if you have the cash, roof and sun it's a bit of a no-brainer here (and I see from your channel you are in the UK👍 ). Cheers

[@graedonmunro1793]

good vid Paul,,, we have had solar for 15 years now.

[@HaxbyShed]

Very satisfying isn't it Graedon. 👍

[@julias-shed]

Thanks for the review I just have a small amount of DIY solar on the shed roof at the moment 😀

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Julia, I visited an agricultural college a couple of years ago which has just a couple of panels on a wall feeding a bench top battery charging unit used to charge all their grounds tools like leaf blowers, chain saws, mowers etc. ... Just from two panels. Cheers

[@kimber1958]

Thanks for the update. Very interesting

[@HaxbyShed]

👍

[@shavian208]

Hi Paul, I have just upgraded to a very similar GivEnergy setup to yours, 17 E/W panels and 2 x 5Kwh batteries + Gen2 5Kw inverter. Brilliant improvement in savings so far, using Agile Octopus tariff. My house loads look higher than yours, plus I slow charge my EV when prices are lowest and/or the rare occasions when sun is shining. Using Agile is a bit nerdy, but I’m retired so it keeps me busy! Question: where do you find that great colour presentation on the GivEnergy dashboard? I can’t find it anywhere.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hiya, on the web browser dashboard (not the app) go to the bottom left on the sidebar and you will see reports. When that opens at the top select the type of report you want to generate. Try this link in a web browser like Google Chrome or Edge or whatever givenergy.cloud/reports You can view it on a PC/tablet or phone (the link should open the browser automatically and then log in). Cheers

[@jaybailey3518]

Nicely explained !

[@HaxbyShed]

Thank you Jay.

[@GrahamWathey]

As you charge the battery at night, what do you set as the charge level for the battery. I've tried 70% but you can get caught out on a dull rainy day.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Graham, at first I was adjusting the overnight charge level month by month . My target was 15% in summer and 100% mid winter. But now my night import rate is about 13p kWh and my export rate is 15p kWh (new price this month but not sure what that will be yet) so I've left it at 100%. If the energy in the battery is not used the excess just flows to export. Cheers

[@GrahamWathey]

@HaxbyShed yes I've come to the same decision. 100% of 7.5p and sell at 15p. As a Yorkshireman I'm surprised that it come to me earlier!

[@peterwagstaff2715]

Having a lot of problems with wifi dropping off any advice

[@HaxbyShed]

Hello Peter, I'm not sure if you mean watching the video or generally in your home? I've connected my solar inverter to the network with a physical cable. Cheers

[@peterwagstaff2715]

@HaxbyShed to the inverter I tried using a WiFi repeater

[@HaxbyShed]

@@peterwagstaff2715 Ah that stirs a memory that they don't like repeaters/extenders (I may be thinking of something else). The Gen 2 inverters can take a physical ethernet cable (I don't think Gen 1 could do that - think they were wifi connection only). It just takes the whole wifi uncertainty out of the equation. Ethernet can operate over cable for 100m no problem. Cheers

[@jchidley]

I'd suggest that the solar energy isn't free to charge the battery: it costs the amount of money that you haven't earnt in export. My own analysis of my battery and solar setup suggests that there is a small money benefit of the battery and, I agree, solar panels are a much better investment. In my opinion you should spend all your money on solar panels first, before you think about a battery. If you're reading this a long in the future, and battery prices have come down a lot, perhaps it will be different. But by then, solar panels will be cheaper too, so perhaps the argument will still be the same.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Jchidley, I think we are in agreement - the panels provide best value and the battery takes somewhat longer to pay back. I agree charging the battery from solar comes at a cost of 15p kWh for us (loss of export income) but the battery allows a time shift. If it becomes cloudy or the sun is well over the yard arm then drawing from the battery instead of the grid avoids import at (say) 32p kWh and in that case the net gain from having the battery is 32p - 15p = 17p kWh. In mid winter were there is very little solar we charge the battery on the cheap rate at night and draw on it during the day avoiding the expensive day rate. Really summer is all about the panels and winter is all about the battery. How much will panels come down in price - they have already fallen so much? A further 50% fall is perhaps only £50 a panel - perhaps £900 in our case with 18 panels. Battery prices have a long way to fall. . A 50% fall in battery price might be £1500. Cheers

[@jchidley]

@@HaxbyShed Yep, I agree! I'm on Octopus Agile with the 15p fixed export too. The main benefit of the battery for me is to cover the 4-7pm peak. The 440W panels I bought recently were only £84 each. I'm damn sure that the panels will get even cheaper: I worked in the IT industry and saw massive reductions in price, year after year. As you point out at least 50% of the costs is in installation - i.e. people.

[@glennwright9747]

If you borrowed the money or cashed in a 5% GIC would your electric bill savings cover the cost/ loss in investment? What is the ROI? It should be better than 10% to justify the investment, especially when the possible payback is in decades maybe exceeding your life expectancy.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Glenn, I used cash which was paying very little interest at the time. Yes, interest rates have gone up but we could not see into the future. The system will pay for itself in about 8 years so that's a reasonable ROI. If I die before it pays back I shan't be worrying. I have not denied myself anything to pay for it, e.g. forgone a holiday. Remember, there are no pockets in a shroud. Cheers.

[@glennwright9747]

@@HaxbyShed I was self employed for last 30 years, so my retirement funds are closely tied to savings and investments. Investments are making 8 to 10%. Borrowing is more expensive. So far I cannot see a payback for me. If I downsize (retirement home) the cash is gone.

[@markgarnett3521]

Interesting we all have the perception that self energy generation has to have a payback but something like new kitchen does not. There are many benefits to stop burning g stuff and those that can, should.

[@HaxbyShed]

@@glennwright9747 I fully understand Glenn. 👍

[@devjon123]

@@markgarnett3521 Wholeheartedly agree. It's a strange mindset.

[@paulrayner4514]

interesting....

[@HaxbyShed]

Yes indeed Paul. Financially speaking solar panels are compelling for many homes now, in my opinion. These are 2nd gen panels with about 21% efficiency (first gen were about 13% I think). Apparently there are 3rd gen panels at preproduction stage. They capture energy from a wider light spectrum and may get to 28 to 30% efficiency. Cheers

[@paulrayner4514]

@@HaxbyShed even more interesting🤔

[@JTL1313]

1st

[@HaxbyShed]

Indeed Sir. 👍

[@FrancisoDoncona]

Over 15 years their efficiency drops 15 percent per year, then do a review. How much did you loose, battery replacement cost, damage, roof repairs, etc.

[@guustflater9232]

poppycock

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Francisco, panels and batteries have been around a long time now. Panels lose maybe 0.5% generation capacity per year. Batteries might lose 15% storage capacity over 10 years, but that's improving. My home battery is warranted to retain 70% capacity over 12 years for unlimited cycles. Roofs vary. Typically here they are tile or slate. We don't normally see tin or shingles, for example. Obviously if a tile cracks under a panel and leaks then it's still a pain to remove the panel and replace the tile, but it's rare. Cheers

[@MyLilMule]

EVs will continue to be cheaper as long as we are mining lithium and cobalt in third world countries that have no environmental standards. I'm all for the economics and saving money, if it is actually attainable. But the sales pitch that EVs are better for the environment is a myth. On the contrary, hybrids are far better for the environment. Toyota did an internal study that was leaked and they found that the core rare materials used to make 1 battery powered EV could be used to make 6 PEVs or 90 hybrids. They also estimate that the overall carbon reduction of those 90 hybrids over their lifetimes is 37 times as much as as single battery EV. EVs are NOT the answer to a cleaner environment. Not to mention the strain it is putting on the electric gids, otherwise they wouldn't be trying to buy back the stored power in your battery.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Greg, I'm not pushing EVs it was just an observation. I totally agree that politicians often follow fashion rather than scientific facts. Take the example in Europe where diesel was heavily promoted over gas (petrol) and suddenly the complete reversal - but the science never changed. Here on our small island with 65m people many people have two cars but only drive 10 miles a day to work and back sitting in traffic queues so if they can charge at home then an EV as a second car could be very viable - especially if they become a lot cheaper. But I agree a plug in hybrid could also get there and back on a charge too and in that sense would be as good but with no range concerns. Over here the electricity grid needs major reconfiguration to connect in all the renewable energy generation - regardless of what is required to serve consumers with EVs at the domestic level. There is a lot of development work on sodium batteries and other less harmful materials but commercial production is probably some way off. And then there is Hydrogen ...... especially for commercial trucks and earth moving equipment .... could be a long term solution but too early to call. Cheers

[@MyLilMule]

@@HaxbyShed I didn't mean to suggest you were pushing EVs. Sorry if it came across that way.

[@HaxbyShed]

@@MyLilMule Hi Greg, don't worry I'm not a sensitive guy 🙂. If or when I ever get an EV I will look for one compatible with 'Vehicle to Grid' and 'Vehicle to Home' so I can power my home from the car (like an extended home battery). I only drive about once a week (because all I need is local) and my car sits in the garage for days on end - would not be good for an EV battery. I would cycle power between the grid, car and home to keep the EV battery in good shape. These technologies are available but still only on a limited number of chargers and cars. I did notice that the F150 Lightning supports V2G. Cheers

[@MyLilMule]

@@HaxbyShed The F150 does have that. There's a YT Channel I watch (Ambition Strikes) and they have an F150 Lightning and have used it to power their off grid home (as an experiment). What I would like to have is one of the Jeep 4xE Wranglers. It's a traditional hybrid, but the electric motor has a great deal of torque, which is great for off road use. But alas, they are far too expensive for me. :)

[@RB-yq7qv]

If you what your home to burn down then buy a EV

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi RB, there have been EV fires occasionally but rare. Batteries on cheap electric bicycles exploding are more of a problem here. UK has just banned installation of home batteries in house lofts. That's not so much because of the fire risk from the battery itself but if there is a fire and it spreads to the loft then it's an extra risk with all that stored energy. And the batteries are heavy so there could be a risk of the battery falling on firefighters if the loft timbers give way. Cheers