Hunt for the VMC - Beginners Guide to buying a Vertical Machining Center

Apologies for the unusually low video quality - I'm posted 'on site' in Connecticut while working on CAMDEX reloading machines.
My wife and I drove by the MAZAK Technology Center after landing in Hartford and it reminded me to share my initial research and thoughts into buying a vertical machining center.
Looking forward to sharing this "research and learning" process with folks - hopefully this little series will continue as I find a VMC - if so, I'll be sure to share details about buying process, rigging, tooling up, etc!
Don't worry, Tormach is still going to be my 'main' machine - oddly, as I mention in this video, I'd like the VMC for more boring, repetitive work which will free up the Tormach for R&D, small jobs, etc. 5 Reasons to Use a Fixture Plate on Your CNC Machine: bit.ly/3sNA4uH

[@GoughCustom]

I'm going through the same process at the moment looking for a VMC. One thing to consider when buying new is that a lease option makes it so the full lease payments are deductible against your income each month which is nice. I'm looking at the Kent KVR2418 which is a smaller machine (as that's all I have space for) but still seems very capable. Heavy for it's size (8800lbs, 24x18" envelope) with fast max feedrates and a decently quick toolchanger... Also been looking at HAAS minimills and the Sharp VS2414 as options... I'll be curious to see what you end up with!

[@brucealexander9024]

I must say that I appreciate your "thinking man's" mentality where you know that you don't know what you don't know...ya know? Seriously, keeping that in which you know you are competent separate from that in which you are not certain and realizing the difference can be the key to a happy life...really. Those who are unable or unwilling to admit ignorance of certain subjects are doomed to make bad choices in those arenas. Admitting your ignorances (and, trust me, I have many) and seeking good council will serve you well. Thanks for the insightful vids and your good council...keep it up!

[@craigsbully]

I've been watching your channel since the non speaking videos you where making in manhattan. It's inspiring to see how far you have come in such a short time. Great job on the videos thanks for sharing.

[@FreemanPascal]

Video quality looked fine to me. Although, I'm one of those folks who can't tell the difference between 1080p and 1080i or why I should buy Monster Cables or $5 audio/video cables :D I look forward to hearing more on your research and adventure in buying a VMC.

[@thoperSought]

very interesting, thanks! definitely looking forward to hearing more on this topic

[@pivbyfrank]

I have experience programming, setting up and running Makino,Okuma,and Haas VMC's in a large Mold/Tool and Die shop. The Makino's are used for high speed machining and anything that required very tight tolerances and finishes. The Okuma's are very large machines that required cranes,hoists,lifts to load and unload. The Haas machines are used and abused on everything else.About 5 years ago NX (Unigraphics) replaced Mastercam as the CAM software that is used.

[@russtuff]

Great topic John I've been researching VMCs for quite a while because I'm actually planning to skip the Tormach and go right to something bigger (and used) if I ever grow up :) It sounds like a drill/tap machine like a Brother or Robodrill (my favorite) might be nice fit for you? Smaller footprint, and insanely fast.

[@tuscanland]

Nice t-shirt!

[@Hirudin]

I just went through this myself. I'll look forward to watching your decision making process as it was NOT easy for me. I was looking for a new machine though. Sifting through the Haas hate was very difficult indeed! What did-them-in for me is the fact that getting virtually any of their machines into my garage would have taken some serious planning (including increasing the opening height of my garage door) and that the salesman I was dealing with wasn't forthright with... well... anything. Also, Haas' nickle-and-diming got old quickly. Ahem... *1 MB* of program memory? Are the joking?! Like another poster, I think Milltronics deserves a serious look. Full disclosure: I have not used (or even seen) a Milltronics machine, my opinion is only based on info I've been able to glean from the internet and through talking with the salesman. The VM20IL looks like a killer machine. If it was possible to fit one in my garage, there would probably be one out there right now (instead of a Brother). As for options, they're basically the anti-Haas - almost everything is standard. Again, I'm coming from the prospective of looking to buy a new machine, I hope Milltronics' advantages translate to the used market as well. Good luck!

[@WasNiksIsNiksWordtNiks]

No, the 410-II i meant was a machine fron 2007 and came with the somewhat older but basicly the same as the newer matrix control system. The Smart machines you pointed out are the ones with the different but still great Smart control. Mazaks are great stable and very easy to program machines on wich you can setup very quick and program almost everything 2,5D without a cam program wich i likr VERY much!

[@WasNiksIsNiksWordtNiks]

Sorry for the late response, yeah the Smart system is very similar to the t640 or Matrix system that they offer. I worked with a 410-II for a few years (smallest VMC they make) and i only made CAM programmes for 3d jobs.the Mazatrol controlling system is very user friendly adn quick to program. I really think you'll have a great machine wich would be very quick, heavy duty and up the tsk for your needs. If funds allow though, go for the Matrix controlled one, Matrix is a tad better in my opinion ;)

[@TAWPTool]

Great. Just as I'm about to pull the trigger on a Tormach, you get me all fired up about a VMC. Haha. No, the Tormach should take care of my needs for a long time. Great video though and I'm anxious to watch your progress.

[@billt8062]

Several years ago I ran a fanuc control blue-chip and it was a alright machine-well built but not a huge fan of the fanuc control more recently I've been running 2 fadal series 2 machines one 3016 and a 4020 and a Cincinnati with a fanuc control and find the fadal to be much easier and user friendly then the fanuc controls. Also the fadals are very easy to work on and parts are easy to get ahold of... I'm also located in Ohio by youngstown and recommend a company called mega cnc (from Cleveland area) they work on fadals and often have some around or can get one to meet your specs quickly we bought the two at work from them and they found them for us and went over them with a fine tooth comb delivered them installed and even took a a couple days to show us the ins and outs and have been there any time we have questions

[@Liberty4Ever]

I looked on my local Craig's List last night and saw some potentially good deals on CNC lathes and small VMCs. For me, the best buy might have been a $600 Knuth Basic 150 lathe that looked as if it was low mileage and had been stripped in preparation for a CNC retrofit. For about $1500 and maybe 20 hours of sweat equity, I could have a nice little CNC lathe running LinuxCNC. If I had the space, I'd probably get that, even though I already have two lathes.

[@Liberty4Ever]

NYC CNC If the bed and saddle are in good shape, and there's a decent (.75" or larger) bore through the spindle, this could be a great little $600 LinuxCNC conversion lathe. Throw out the threading change gears. Put some NEMA 42 stepper motors on the Z and X axes with a parallel port I/O card ($300, or servos and encoders for a few hundred more), swap out the 1 HP motor for a three phase spindle motor and VFD ($200 on eBay), slap on a quadrature spindle encoder ($50 or less), add $200 worth of PC stuff, heat bend a sliding acrylic sneeze guard and add a coolant pump and you are good to go. cincinnati.craigslist.org/tls/4687007154.html Here it is on eBay for $52 with two days to go. www.ebay.com/itm/321533061457 The cheapest lathe Knuth sells now is $7000. www.knuth-usa.com/basic-plus.html Of course, if you were really serious... how about a nice 15HP Hitachi Seiki CNC lathe with a 12 position tool turret and a hydraulic collet closer for $7900? louisville.craigslist.org/tld/4685871364.html And a nice little 10 HP vertical machining center with a 16 position tool holder for $7000? dayton.craigslist.org/tls/4648009852.html

[@Liberty4Ever]

NYC CNC When I bought my Clausing lathe, I checked the nearest six Craig's Lists, figuring a 200 mile radius was doable for machine shop tools. I found the lathe 75 miles away and managed to bring it back in my pickup truck, and managed not to kill anyone getting it into my basement shop. It helps having a friend with a box truck with an 1800 pound hydraulic lift gate, but you can always rent a truck or pay for the machine move, but that can easily cost more than the machine. Ouch. There are Craig's List aggregating websites such as AllOfCraigs.com that will search multiple Craig's Lists for you. Brad (TacticalKeychains) has had pretty good luck buying used CNC lathes on eBay. My friend James (WarMachineLLC) bought a new Mikini 1610L CNC milling machine that looked very good as a Tormach class tool, but then spent 20X as long reengineering it before finally having a good working machine than I'd spend converting a manual machine to CNC control. Basically, the hardware was good, the integrated electronics were not, and the spindle was a joke. Worst of all, the customer service seemed to consist of blaming the stupid customer. I think there are currently some great deals on used equipment that is nearly perfect for someone making the step up from hobby machining to starting a machining intensive small business - whether buying turn key CNC equipment or buying manual machines or CNC machines with junk electronics and converting them to CNC.

[@EvergladesAmmo]

I'm looking forward to seeing what you end up with. If you find a package deal on two let me know. Looks like you need some more grease the bullet and powder cams.

[@m98custom1212]

Man,are you on right track. I would check out a Fadal not greatest rapids or fastest tool changes but cheap and cheap to fix. Mori Seki and DMG mori are the same company now.

[@m98custom1212]

NYC CNC Pretty much like used car.. Does it look used and abused? If so probably because it was. Ask the owner if you see the machine under full power running a test program and couple tool changes. Does the owner have the manuals real handy if you get an older machine. Does the owner have services records? Two biggest questions are why are you selling it? Whats wrong with it? What kind of environment? Job shop? One Material and one job etc

[@WasNiksIsNiksWordtNiks]

Mazak 3-axis 410-II ;) a GREAT 'little' vtc/vmc!

[@catholicseymour292]

Looks like you have done some very good research and planning. It is very wise to educate yourself as much as possible before you invest such a large amount of money. I have been a machinist for 40 years now and am retiring due to medical conditions or you would never get me out of the shop. I started my career at the end of one age and the beginning of another. I miss the old manual machines and was a Class A Machinist. I took up CNC Programming in 1997 when the CAD/CAM software we use started coming into its own. What I am going to give you is some free advice and it will be worth every penny you pay for it. Oh and by the way I am a reloader myself. Started with a LEE and ended up with a Hornady.. The number one thing I would stress is rigidity of the machine itself. There are three rules, rigidity, rigidity, and rigidity. The stronger the machine the more tool life you can expect and plan for. Tool management is critical. It can make or break a job. It is a simple reality that almost everyone overlooks when they buy a new machine. Mazak and Okuma and Morisiki used to be about the best around. I have seen brand new Mazak VMC's that were not as strong as a Haas. Same with Okuma. I don't know about the new Mori's... Don't listen to the Bull Tweety some of these manufactures tell you. A Haas is a very good medium to light duty machine but it is definitely not built to move material the way an older Okuma will cut a chip. Haas is a very user friendly machine and I have interpolated .0002 bearing diameters all day long with a brand new one. However if you beat the machine up that kind of accuracy will go away. Also you will need to consider what CAD/CAM package you need and can afford. Mastercam is pretty much the standard these days but it is also VERY expensive. A lot of people laugh at me but BobCad is an affordable package that will do a wide variety of things. Mastercam is a great program but it has an extreme learning curve. The newer GibbsCam is very user friendly but still expensive. As I am sure that you know this is a big decision and I think that you are off to a good start. If I can help you out in any way feel free to ask. I am certainly willing to share my knowledge and experience if you would like input from an old man that loved his work. Don

[@catholicseymour292]

The best I remember the older Okuma machining centers were box ways. Not fast by todays standards but they will move some material in a hurry. They also worked on standard g-code as well as a propitiatory control system. I could plug BobCad right into the serial port. MasterCam worked well also.

[@UncleBman]

Your right about picking on Haas, the advertised HP is a complete joke and they just don't get that we see right through it. The thing for me coming from an old school, big machine, big tool, big cut thinking. I had to learn to think, many small fast cuts that in the end do a better job. I consider Haas the Chevrolet of machine tools, a fair value for the money though I think they could do better. They have such a nice control and manuals that are easy to understand you just cannot ignore them as a good choice. I own a 1992 VF0, plastic enclosure and all.. I won Berta (shes no beauty queen, she gets the job done) in an auction from surplus from a university. Most of her issues were from abuse and neglect, a lot of elbow grease and TLC she works all day with no complaint. Nothing on her cannot be repaired by a person with your skill set. Keep up the excellent work!

[@UncleBman]

My personal machine is a '92 vintage VF0, my "real job" we have 2004 machines. I primarily use FeatureCAM to program but often edit G code or write short programs on the machine. The newer Haas machines have a conversational program ability but I have never used it. My complaint on Haas is the low torque at low speed (without gear change) a touch key for feed and RPM override, and really cheap wires and connectors. An older Matsuura I have run, I like them for their ruggedness, more like an F150, may be slow but they just keep going!

[@Mekhanic1]

Tells us more about the Camdex machines if possible. Thanks

[@mclarpet]

The old style box ways provide good damping, something that linear slides cannot do. Box ways are relatively crash resistant (drop a heavy casting on the table) as there are no rollers to flatten or make indentations in the ways. Box ways will last virtually for ever if you insure a higher than standard oil flow rate. Many of the larger European machines use hydrostatic guideways and have incredibly powerful spindle drives - they are also fecking large and extremely expensive, but a man can dream.

[@AndTheCorrectAnswerIs]

Now that you're back in Ohio you'll have your pick of machines. There are constantly machine shops going out of business here. This black cloud of an economy has a silver lining for guys like you who have found a niche and are looking to grow. I see nice used VMCs going for ridiculous low prices just because they are in low demand now and are hard and expensive to move. I look forward to videos of your quest.

[@jdrinkh2o]

Start by finding a used phase perfect if you dont have 3 phase power. What kind of fixtures are you building, material? Are you going to pay cash for the used machine? Finacing a machine older than 10 years is very difficult, FYI.

[@Bigwingrider1800]

I run and program 2 20x40 and a 30x16 Fadals. 1990 vintage. Linear ways there ok given the date. But the new ones today are bad ass fast.

[@Bigwingrider1800]

7500 rpm bring an indicator hook it to the spindle set 0 and pull and push on the table watch the ind. if it moves its prob the thrust bearing 100 bucks not to bad to fix 1990 vintage you will replace the belleville washers 1200 plus lbs of pull( easy, you tube) other then that good machines 700-800 ipm rapids linear ball bearing on table and can hold some pretty good wt.

[@Bigwingrider1800]

the 30x16 is a nice little machine small foot print..

[@Liberty4Ever]

Your back of the envelope VMC list omitted Milltronics. I'm not in the market and know a lot less than you do on this subject, but I have a good friend who bought a VM17 and a VM25 (each new, I think) and has gotten good service from them for many years, and he DOES know a lot about this stuff. I've seen them on the used market. I seem to recall that Milltronics uses Windows. If so, then I'd avoid them for that reason alone. In this down economy, there are plenty of used machines. Now that you're "actively looking", I bet you find something to your liking soon. I look forward to those videos. Be careful when you bring your new VMC home. Spend some quality time with your Tormach, so she doesn't think you're spending all of your time doting over the new baby. :-)

[@Hirudin]

I'm fairly certain that the current Milltronics controller is Linux based.

[@FrankSandqvist]

I'd say an AC servo should be a lot better service wise, than brushed DC servos, that have brushes that wear out and create dust etc. And I'm pretty sure all the new VMCs use AC servos as well? If they haven't started using brushless DC motors perhaps? Anyway, AC servos should pretty much work until the bearings wear out :) But the servo drivers are more complex, so maybe that's the problem with the 1990 HAAS:es?

[@fuzzy1dk]

permanent magnet AC and brush-less DC is basically the same thing. With modern electronics it shouldn't be that much more complex to control a brushed vs. brush-less servo, it is basically 3 vs. 2 wires

[@EVguru]

The physical difference between brush-less DC and AC servo is the distribution of the phase windings; AC is sine wave fed and BDC is trapezoidal. Where do you want your losses concentrated, in the motor, or in the controller?

[@fuzzy1dk]

Paul Compton There's not going to be much difference in controller loss it is all switching controllers. You need two half bridges for a brushed motor, three half bridges for an AC/Brushless so it's not like there is much saved there either

[@EVguru]

A trapezoidal controller at 100% output spends most of it's time not switching!

[@fuzzy1dk]

Paul Compton 100% output is special case, especially for a servo

[@builtrodewreckedit]

I think i would hire the work out to a local company that does this machining already. Befriend them, ask there advice and see if you can help in the setup, tooling and running of there machine. You would learn allot from there expertise and get some hands on experience yourself.

[@DEATHTRAPHOTRODS]

HAAS best bang for the buck!!

[@DEATHTRAPHOTRODS]

Check into there reman machines

[@gbowne1]

We found the best beginner VMC is a 1990's FADAL 3016.. or if you can afford it the 4020 is a nice machine. There's plenty of room to grow there..

[@russtuff]

NYC CNC John I've looked into the 3016 too as loads of people online seem to recommend them. I remember reading (on cnczone or practical machinist) that you want a 1996 or newer for the brushless DC motors.

[@gbowne1]

NYC CNC Well, John, either machine either the 3016 or the bigger 4020, is a great machine, especially for a beginner. They are relatively trouble free. Keep the toolchanger carousel clean and free of chips wipe if off and blow it down too. Make sure there are no broken clips. Clean the spindle, use one of them spindle cleaning wiper tools. Make sure the coolant is always clean and please do perform regular maintenance, make sure the lube line are clean and free flowing making sure to see that enough lubricant goes to the ways, screws, etc. We have three FADAL 3016's in the shop. The control is easy to use and operate, setup, program, etc. Books are available for download free.

[@gbowne1]

There is no real FADAL maintenance you couldn't do yourself. Maintenance is a investment like anything else. We do ours on our own. We do have a written maintenance plan. Best be done more than once a year. Several things need attention more than once a year. Parts are reasonably priced too. Make up a list with several sections in it, with stuff that has to be done hourly, daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, etc. etc. Keep it by the machine, maybe keep the service records with it too. Make a record sheet showing what was done and when and sign it off. Call the guys at FadalCNC.com too. Those guys know their stuff. I especially suggest keeping it clean.

[@gregbowne993]

NYC CNC It's a great machine for aluminum, and most steels. 390+ IPM. We bought the SwitTool SwiftCARB soft jaws for them. Expect to pay about $13k-19k for a used one. Plenty of accessories to go with them too. We bought a FADAL VH65 4th Axes for ours (another $2k-5k). Yes I will share my maintenance sheet. Have to clean one up for ya and scan.

[@gregbowne993]

yes, well that's for a 3016. 4020's go for 20k-30k. And that's ebay price which is normally about 15-30% high.

[@GuyFawkes911]

From what I read the DMG Mori/ Seiki Mori are the best. But there are so many especially when you want cheaper machines.

[@m98custom1212]

"Best" for you isn't best me.

[@conawayjb]

I've run makino, haas , mazak, and mori's and I will say hands down the mori will out perform all of them; the rigidity is amazing and with that the accuracy as well. Surprisingly the biggest p.o.s was the makino.

[@m98custom1212]

conawayjb Really. What didn't you like about them

[@GuyFawkes911]

yes those are the highest quality maschines most rigid. But yes they are the Ferrari and their prizes reflect that too.

[@jrucker2004]

Nice shirt!

[@missinglinkblades7480]

My shop runs mostly haas mills there great machines if there in good order we hold tolerances all day of +- .0005 don't be scared of haas. We also run doosan mills 5 axis and 9 axis lathes maintenance for them is a night mare and they through temper tantrums but good machines

[@aWhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

what is the generic name for Tormach style machine?

[@pietzeekoe]

OKK is in there twice :P

[@cheif10thumbs]

So how is your VMC hunt progressing?

[@steamboatmodel]

Once you use a real CNC VMC you will be putting your toymack in a corner to gather dust. Do not bother with a used machine the reconditioning costs will eat you up. Most used machines are for sale because it would cost too much to continue using them. A machine that cost $100,000.00 new and is being sold for $30,000.00 would probably cost that to bring it up to working condition.

[@jkrupke]

why did you wear that shirt in CT after newtown?

[@TheEgoblitz]

Check out the Fives U6R 2500. No but seriously, I've programmed, set up, and operated most of the machines in your list. Stay away from Fadal and Toyoda unless you want to make service calls every 2 months. Fadal is out of business anyway. Don't buy a Daewoo either as they are out of business also. Doosan bought off Daewoo's line of machine tools and discontinued most of the parts for there older machines. I would however buy a newer Doosan. HAAS is ok but there made cheap and there controls are proprietary. Stick with something with a Fanuc control and your better off. Mazak, Mori Seiki, and Matsuura are some of the best machines. My $.02

[@SacoreyRugger]

are you running two dillon reloading stations behind you

[@SacoreyRugger]

niice

[@missinglinkblades7480]

Most are haases are mid 90's or newer

[@tumdeax]

Isnt mori seki the same company as DMG Mori?

[@chrisyboy666]

Deckel Maho geildermeister aka DMG merged with Mori seiki now known as DMG Mori...This merger happened So they could enhance both companies global presence and enhance both companies product range and Market share basically the thinking was if you can't beat them join them.They manufacture very high quality machines for various applications.This company is goal orientated and the very top end of the market.Very expensive but very solid machines @ the very forefront of technology.Their main competitors are OKOUMA/MAKINO/MAATSUURA not HAAS/Doosan or any other of the cheaper machine tool manufacturers out their.DMG MORI machines are aimed @ the high value component and production sectors not really subcontract and smaller job shops.Im not saying these sectors don't use them but the high machine cost restricts a lot of people from purchasing these higher end machines.

[@alexandermcgilton9204]

A good way to get a cheap good as new machine is to get a worn out machine then replace the spindle bearings, ball screws and linear glide rails. When a company buys a new VMC they are expected by the manufacture to replace these a few times in the ten, twenty years of the machines practical life. When in actuality many job shops just run the machine until it's no longer making accurate parts then sell it off. If you can find an older machine the spend a few thousand on replacement parts then tear down and reassemble yourself, you will affectively have a brand new machine with an older controller. Box way machines will need to have the main castings scraped, a vary time consuming and specialized endeavour. Unless they have removable wear rails. Look in to rail replacements, and alignment. www.nskamericas.com/cps/rde/xbcr/na_es/E9008_Installation_Linear_Guides_Machine_Tool.pdf

[@alexandermcgilton9204]

NYC CNC I'm not saying to get one that is down and out, but to get one that is fully operational but has some sloop in the travel. The kind of machines that pro shops would retired to the less critical work.

[@Rasmus661]

I must admit i'm probably a bit bias since i work with Okuma mills every day. But if you can find one local for sale you should definitely consider it. There MB series mills are build like a tank. I have also heard some good stories about John Ford mills. They don't like very fancy but from what i'm told the build quailty should be very good. www.johnford.com.tw/products.htm

[@m98custom1212]

Tactical- How you downgrade something that you never experienced?

[@luciaochoa3525]

Tormac Tormac Tormac

[@cheif10thumbs]

Take a look at the selection here: www.machinetools.com/en/for-sale/machines/type/vertical-machining-centers/?iDisplayLength=25&iDisplayStart=0&iSortCol_0=0&sSortDir_0=asc&sSearch_11=MAZAK&mDataProp_0=manufacturer_and_model&mDataProp_11=manufacturer

[@cheif10thumbs]

NYC CNC Nope not in anyway. I'm just a fan offering you assistance.

[@cheif10thumbs]

or here :www.bluestarmachinery.com/

[@BROUSBLADES]

HAAS ALL DAY.

[@rlockwood2]

ROFL FKING MAO

[@BROUSBLADES]

Just brought a brand new Haas Mini-Mill, super simple control, havent had it long but Ive ran Haas's for the past 10-15 years.

[@rlockwood2]

BROUSBLADES Congrats. Did you look at anything else on the market?

[@BROUSBLADES]

NYC CNC For 1, I am using my CNC in my garage so space was limited, it was pretty expensive but my father has purchased over 2 Million dollars worth of Haas' over the past 10 years so I got that "family discount". They definitely rip you off with all the "extra" that should come standard with the machine like the memory, the machine came with 1mb of memory, keep in mind an MP3 song is usually between 3-4mb. Upgraded to 750mb for almost $2000 extra. Once you get all that bullshit out of the way they are great machines, they have great customer service and they are extremely user friendly. I ran Haas lathes for a lot of years too but mostly 5-Axis Haas for the past 8 years.

[@BROUSBLADES]

Mastercam

[@vdub5818]

A buddy of mine has a fadal and loves it. Check him out on Instagram @zodiaceng

[@thedge7]

Support American products please.

[@Liberty4Ever]

Buy a good used mill and MANUFACTURE American products!

[@Iceberg86300]

NYC CNC same as any other machine, the really important parts! Ballscrews, linear guides, motors, odds and ends. Really drives me nuts to listen to people bash on Haas, call them cheap and fragile, power is overrated, blah blah. Everything is cast iron. High dollar Bosch-Rexroth and nsk linear guides/ballscrews/bearings. Yaskawa AC servo motors driven using sinusoidal commutation from 45 amp servo amps controlled with 3-4 32 or 64 bit cold fire processors. Proprietary ballscrew temp comp that comes extremely close to linear scale accuracy. Machines are constantly turned off and on and run during assembly. Everyone is test cut and ball barred. Warehouse stocks nearly every part made, and has a same day ship rate of over 99%. Marketing is probably the smallest dept in the white collar area, dwarfed by engineering, which runs with a goal of producing 10% new product per year in addition to continuous improvement of current products. And no, I didn't pull this out of a marketing pamphlet.

[@jkrupke]

I'm sorry for my comment I really like your show. but I would have pulled a different shirt out.