HYBRID AMPLIFIERS. Adding one of these, is not a good idea. WHY?

[@TRONMAGNUM2099]

This is one of the best amplifier channels on YT.

[@User_not_found_403]

I've wrestled back and forth with this. It is accuracy vs what's sounds pleasing. Music is entertainment for most people, so I can understand wanting that harmonically pleasing distortion to make it more enjoyable. Assuming a digital source file is the same, and your amp stages (pre and power) are just passing on the truth, the two other major spots in the signal path where you will get differences would be the DAC and of course the speakers. Their deficiencies are sometimes fixed by the coloration amps may have.

[@ronschauer839]

👍👍 Two thumbs up sir!!! As someone who both played in bands (guitar) and who loves to listen to music of all kinds, I posit that valves may still have their place in musical instrument amps. But not in modern high quality music reproduction equipment. There is a huge difference between "making" the sounds and "reproducing" them as faithfully as possible. I am always searching for the best quality recordings of music I love. Sometimes I cannot find them, but most often I can and they can be a pleasure to listen to on good equipment.

[@markfischer3626]

I agree with everything you've said. The technology of vacuum tubes has many drawbacks. I bought my first solid state amplifier in 1968 and never looked back. However, vacuum tubes do have one advantage for the input stage of electronic circuits, their very high input impedance. A typical input impedance of a tube circuit can be 100 Kohms or more while for say a solid state power amplifier it could be as low as 5 Kohms. Now if the source impedance of the prior stage were say a low cost low power solid state class AB amplifier where it is under 1 ohm, it wouldn't matter. But many if not most stick with the traditional cathode follower or emitter follower output which is at least 40 ohms. Look at Stereophile's measurements of a Nagra preamplifier with a cost of $8000 to $12,000. Its circuits consist of three cheap dual triode 1960s tubes with an output impedance of 600 ohms. The tests show that with a solid state amplifier the high end is rolled off. The circuit is less complex that a 1950s AM table radio with 5 tubes. With this very bad arrangement, the complex impedance of the connection cable becomes a factor in the frequency response. The circuit is modeled using Thevenin's theorem for the source, the telegrapher's equations for the connecting wire, and the complex impedance of the load, in this case the input stage of the power amplifier. In an ideal case the output impedance of the prior stage would be zero, the input impedance of the power amplifier would be infinite, and the impedance of the wire would be irrelevant except for an open circuit or a short circuit. Using a cable as a control element is the worst possible choice. An equalizer is a much better choice. So some companies are using vacuum tubes for the input stage of a solid state power amplifier. Personally I think a MOSFET would be a far better choice. The most primitive amplifier circuit we have is the single ended vacuum tube triode with no negative feedback.This is probably the amplifier Deforest used. Everything that can go wrong with it does go wrong. For example the cathode emissions varies with the fourth power of the temperature. Low power, high distortion. Yet some people love those 300B SETs. Go figure. The high output impedance of the plate circuit from 5 kohms to 15 kohms creates an interesting kind of distortion sold state amplifiers which don't use output transformers can't duplicate. That form of distortion is hysteresis loop distortion. this is where the negative going waveform for a sine wave does not retrace the positive going waveform due to inertia of the magnetic domains to change polarity even in the best transformer iron such as permalloy and supermalloy. The output transformer may be the greatest source of distortion in a vacuum tube amplifier. I was surprised that at a trade show hosted by Vacuum Tube Valley about 15 years ago, I was able to identify by sound alone the one solid state amplifier in the show.

[@nixter1nixter1]

You are correct Michael, tubes deform the waveform into an unnatural shape, producing a gently clipped sound that people like. But if you want accurate sound, a solid-state design is best.

[@D1N02]

I enjoyed my little valve preamps, with switchable opamps very much. I switched out opamps and valves for NOS valves. Sounded great.

[@mfr58]

I think you are correct about the cheap valve end of the market. I also think you are correct about people liking various degrees of 2nd harmonic distortion that single ended triode circuits can add. However valves can be operated in a very linear, wide bandwidth fashion and provide detailed and relatively faithful reproduction, whilst also having a certain something that can be captivating in a way solid state fails to provide. Whether that certain something is an added quality or an ability to allow something through from the recording in a way solid state does not, I don't know. What I would say is that what we measure is not the whole story about what a piece of equipment does or what we actual perceive when listening. Thanks for a very sensible presentation on this subject.

[@yellow_noise3]

The most admired tube in the hifi world, directly heated triode 300B was designed for RF use! Unison Research amplifier Unico (good Italian brand, no ChiFi) use tube front stage and transistor AB class power amp, Audio Note, the holy graal of audio companies use tube buffers in their DAC devices, Etc etc. Well implemented tube adds 3dimentiality, holographic sound and scene layering which never be achieved by NE5532 opamp. Even so called discrette opamps like Burson, sparkos etc sound way better from this 1dollar opamp. Of course all is subjective, I understand engineering aspect (I am electronician engineer on my own) of the matter, but I learned thru years, there is no one "right" way in audio. There are many ways and many different expectations. Yes. I want my recordings sound good and nice for my ears. Nothing bad in this. I will not limit my listening to the perfectly recorded Sonatas and Orchestras of all the world, or Diana Krall or other Chesky Records stuff, because I simply do not like this kind of music!!!

[@VEC7ORlt]

@@yellow_noise3 AN makes expensive trash, especially the one that is not made in japan. If you are an electronics engineer, where does all of this praise for those stupid bursons and sparkos comes from? the bum? No amount of tube 'magic' will ever fix bad recordings. Oh and 5532 is better than you'd ever believe, do some blind tests and the whole facade of lies will fall right down.

[@VEC7ORlt]

Solid state fails to provide what? More second harmonic? Well you're listening to lies then. Oh, there is something that lies beyond measurements? Tell me then, how a synchronous amplifiers used in various physics experiments can extract nanovolt level signals that are way below the noise level, but when it comes to audio there is some wishful thinking, mystery and woo science?

[@Mrhifitunes]

@@VEC7ORlt some like to hear the true recording. What Michael said is that it is highly compressed, no dynamics and sometimes also clipping. If you prefer to listen to that, good. I prefer it a bit softer so it is more pleasurable for my ears. Everyone his own way.

[@VEC7ORlt]

@@Mrhifitunes Did I stutter somewhere? Show me the part where I said anything about my preferences.

[@osliverpool]

I saw someone take one of those apart once and work out the schematic, and the valve wasn't even in circuit - it only had power to the filament to make it glow. And, wow, you got to work with Peter Walker!

[@paulanderson7796]

Valves do have an advantage over BJTs and MOSFETS in guitar amplifier stages. They distort in a more pleasing way than semiconductors do. But when we don;'t want distortion, such as in h-ifi applications, then semiconductors are far more suitable, in my opinion. I do appreciate there's more to it than that. In the case of intsrument amplifiers, I still think solid state output stages are superior. And far more rugged. Some musicians are clumsy 🙂

[@jamesrindley6215]

When tube amplifiers are discussed, the idea that 2nd harmonics enrich the music inevitably comes up. Unfortunately, the situation in real life is more complex because you cannot have any form of harmonic distortion without also introducing IMD, or intermodulation distortion. IMD sounds bad. It sounds bad because it introduces frequencies that have no relation to the musical tones in the original recording. Even if such distortions somehow sound "good", this has nothing to do with making a high fidelity amplifier. If you can hear the effects generated by the amplifier then what you have is an effects unit, not a high fidelity amplifier. We can make amplifiers now which have defects below the threshold of human hearing. Therefore, all non-broken amplifiers sound identical.

[@MichaelBeeny]

I agree 100%. I could not have said it better myself.

[@NickP333]

With absolutely all due respect, Michael, the harmonics tubes / valves can impart is quite pleasing to a lot of people’s ears, but you’re well aware of this. Solid state works beautifully in the power amp section, but I have always loved the sound of tubes in the preamp section driving the power amp section. They need to be separated in different components to achieve the best scenario, imho. It may not be “HiFi” to you, and I understand where you’re coming from and point of view, but we all like different types of sounds. I’m not necessarily looking for accuracy but musicality. I was a professional touring musician / guitar player, and would never have used anything but a tube amp. SS amps just don’t react to certain instruments the way a tube amplifier does. 90%+ of amplified instruments use and have used valves to get their sound. I do although support your thoughts on not using cheap valves just for the sake of marketing a product. As you mentioned, they’re often just used as a prop of sorts and aren’t even doing anything but lighting up the filament n the circuit. It’s just two different ways of approaching amplification, and no one is right when it comes to such a subjective topic. I don’t expect you to agree with me, but I mean this is a very non argumentative and respectful manner. There’s enough room for all of us.

[@takeiteasy6154]

the end users equipment should faithfully reproduce the input ,all the sound effects are done in the studio ,including valve distortion .Why do you want to change the original recording ?

[@Mrhifitunes]

​@@takeiteasy6154 why? Like Michael said many modern recordings are compressed, have no dynamics and often clipping. Hence the hype of vinyl. You think if you buy the best measuring system you will have a enjoyable system with those bad recordings? It's like driving an F1 on a bumpy road. A family car can be more enjoyable. Of course you trade in some detail and resolution. Cannot have it all, but most important is you build a system where you can enjoy your music to the max.

[@NickP333]

@@takeiteasy6154 How do you know what the input sounded like unless you were there, and because chances are extremely high that you weren’t there, how do you know your equipment is faithfully reproducing the music if you weren’t there? A guitars “sound effects” are there whether you’re in a studio, a stage, your house, etc. They’re not done in the studio only, and the valve distortion occurs regardless of where you are. I’ve played guitar for almost 4 decades, and can 100% assure you, it sounds the same regardless of where I was while playing it.

[@NickP333]

@@Mrhifitunes Absolutely agree. Beautifully worded and written. Thank you.

[@Чемы]

Спасибо Михаил за интересную и полезную информацию. Вы так все грамотно объяснили. У вас даже подписчиков стало больше! Процветания Вашему каналу!

[@MichaelBeeny]

Welcome to my channel, thank you for posting.

[@paulmcdonough9595]

Thanks for an interesting video, the way I understand it, is that everything a valve can do for an audio circuit a transistor can do better at lower cost, less energy and greater robustness. The industry was relieved to be free of the valve, it is only still with us for reasons of nostalgia and musicians who enjoy the distortion.

[@MickeyMishra]

They sure do look awfully nice lit the way they do. Also makes a fantastic heater in the winter when you are not allowed to own a Space heater. (Military barracks)

[@mannyb973]

Very informative.Thanks.👍

[@garygranato9164]

thank you Michael, i'm not a 'valve man' but this was such an informative video.

[@MichaelBeeny]

Welcome back Gary, good to see you posting again.

[@ryanchappell5962]

I can’t stand someone intentionally slowing my slew rate. Slew slowing should be banned. Seriously though, this is the first time someone explained WHY a slower amp can sound better with a bad recording. It hides those harsh details. It makes so much sense!

[@MichaelBeeny]

Thank you, Ryan, good to see you here again.

[@simonkibble2869]

Dear Micheal, thank you for your videos, I'm so glad you didn't knock it on the head. Not only are your videos interesting, educational, informative, but highly entertaining. Every audio diy channel I visit from now on, I'll add a link in their comments to your channel. All the best from Huntingdon in Blighty 👍

[@MichaelBeeny]

Hi Simon, Thank you for your kind words, most appreciated. Did you know I lived in St. Ives, just down the road? I worked at the Cinema in St. Ives while still at school. I also ran TAS HiFi retailer. Quite a few years ago now. Maybe your too young to remember. Almost forgotten Quad in Huntingdon. My first job after collage.

[@peterbaugh51]

Good tubes with 2nd order even harmonics can add back the impression of an original recording, in my humble experienced opinion... For example, a Douk ST-01 Pro TUBE tip: If your amp came with Chinese 6k4 tubes (has a red star printed on the glass), mine caused distortion. I upgraded to much better sound for $17 with GE JAN 5654W matched pair tubes. 6k4 tubes can be replaced by 6J1, 6J2, 6J3, 6J4, 6J5, 6"1N, 64N, 65N, 5654/5654W, 5725, 6AK5, EF95, 6BA6, 403B, etc. Your tubes may be ok. Just an FYI free tip. Quality of each audio component matters. But money alone guarantees nothing. Good video.

[@RedTheRainbowFriend]

I am so happy to see your return and you in good health. Thank you for your insightful videos always.

[@MichaelBeeny]

Thank you for your kind thoughts, good to see YOU here also.

[@ropeburn6684]

If we move up a good step in price range in regard to class D amplifiers and tube preamps, then it gets really interesting. Current state of the art class D (Hypex, Purifi, Icepower) tends to be so detailed, distortion free and close to the "wire with gain", some people whose ears are used to good old class AB, A or even tube amps don't like that sound. They aren't used to the sound of what is basically a precision instrument compared to their old amps from the 70s. Suddenly every detail, *including the flaws in the musical recordings* is audible. They tend to describe that precision as "coldness" or "digitalness", which of course it isn't - technically it's just neutrality and precision. So they try (good) tube preamps, and would you look at that, *now* the chain sounds good. Even good and properly designed tube preamps add a certain amount of distortion. Just enough for those people to not miss anymore what they're used to. It's a very interesting topic that is very much about psychoacoustics and learned and therefore expected sound properties. And therefore highly subjective.

[@Mrhifitunes]

Good points. As an audio enthusiast I'm starting to leave the path of accuracy more and more because of the bad recordings. (Sad but true, as I would want them to be accurate). Nelson Pass made a harmonic generator. There you can dial in the amount of 2nd harmonics you want. Maybe that's a good middle ground. I haven't tried it though

[@Lif-999]

This approach is bonkers because it is utimately self defeating! To attempt to mask noise by introducing more noise gets you.... well, you figure it out. If I don't like a recording, it only gets played the once.

[@Mrhifitunes]

@@Lif-999 strange...you don't listen to the band you like? You only listen to good recordings? If introducing a bit of second harmonics means you lose a bit at the top, but you can bring the level from those bad recordings a lot up, I think it's worth considering.

[@Lif-999]

@@Mrhifitunes Not so much 'strange', more... pragmatic, I feel. It's not just about the performance of the band or artist, but of the choices made by the sound engineer. So for me, the presence of both of these elements in combination are what deliver the most enjoyable listening experience. To put it rather more crassly: I will not tolerate poor source material on my expensive audio system. And why would I [rhetorical.] On a slightly different note: I apologise for the use of the word bonkers in my original response. In these days of rampant hyperbole, it was ill concidered at best. However, to your credit, you took it in the spirit that it was intended. For this I thank you. Cheers. Phil.

[@Mrhifitunes]

@@Lif-999 apologies accepted. I do agree that the sound engineer has for certain music a big contribution. But do you know they make different master tapes? Not even talking about the changes made in all those online music platforms. Many recordings are compressed have no dynamics and often clipping. Just like Michael said. Also the reason why some prefer vinyl. (Different master and no compression). Having the best measuring system is like an F1 car. Those bad recordings will sound horrible, just like an F1 car will drive horrible on a bumpy road. A family car can be more pleasant. After all you want to enjoy your music to the max. Measurements are important to show flaws but measurements are not everything. In an ideal world, yes but unfortunately not. Just like the potholes in the road we have to take it like they come. Just my thoughts....you may see things differently...

[@MichaelBeeny]

@@Mrhifitunes All opinions are most welcome here. I never remove anyone's comments unless they breach KZbins guild lines.

[@Lif-999]

Well said, sir. This really needed saying! The...fashion for shoe horning valves into solid state equipment is one of the most stupid ideas in todays, so called, hi-fi market. I would go further and say that, for me, the use of valves in hi-fi in general, is anathema. The sensible use of valves is in high power applications such as radar and medicine, or guitar amplifiers - where those distortion characteristics can be usefully harnessed. Thanks for the piece.

[@neosystas]

Great Job, thank you! Isn't it easy to tell the truth If it is not comming from a companys marketing manager. Greetings from Germany, Michael

[@davidcarr2216]

Thank you for your lovely Channel Michael.

[@MichaelBeeny]

Thankyou David for your kind words most appreciated.

[@splitprissm9339]

The irony of the modern compression heavy mixing style is that it is supposed to make it sound louder... and often achieves the opposite (pummels you deaf until nothing sounds loud anymore :) ).

[@Dazzwidd]

Not being one for absolute perfection, I would use a valve amp regularly, but only if I built it, as im into mucking around with the electronic side of things. But I agree with what you said which is in essence, its all in their head. Instruments make it very clear, the waveforms don't lie.

[@joes3485]

Michael, you are so right about many of the issues you mentioned in this episode. I see products similar to what you described advertised on many websites. Valves or vacuum tubes seem to be added just as an advertising "gimmick". To critical listeners, much of what is broadcast on FM radio these days is to badly compressed and distorted that it is unlistenable. Only a few FM stations (in major cities typically) seem to provide a mostly low distortion signal if they broadcast classical music, jazz, big band music etc. Most of the rest is just garbage or rubbish. I personally have both solid state and vacuum tube audio equipment. With a well designed vacuum tube amplifier or a well designed solid state amplifier there is very little that can be discerned to be different between the two. Some early solid state amplifiers were not good to listen too for extended periods of time as they had their own distortion characteristics that exhibited higher odd order harmonics than was originally in the music to be reproduced. Much of the public today does not realize how distorted the audio is from today's sources. As you said, good audio amplifiers will allow the listener to hear the difference between a really excellently recorded music performance and one that is poorly recorded. Engineers test new equipment designs and the best strive for lowest total harmonic distortion and lowest intermodulation distortion. Keep up the good testing and reports! As always, you get what you pay for along with a good deal of education about the items desired.

[@borlibaer]

In Germany since some time there is forming up a High End / Vinyl community on ThemTube. Basically they are all describing what actually "sounds good" but non of them really understand why it is. They are circuling around the point all the time. They describe it indirect from all point of views. You are the first one who came across who puts his finger onto that point of fact of "good sound". ☝️👍🖖🐻

[@MichaelBeeny]

Thank you for your kind words, much appreciated.

[@ConorHanley]

Oh dear, what I assumed but still had a hankering for getting one of those cheap hybrid pre-amps just to have a little glow in my life. Don't think I'll have the nerve to buy one now. Thanks 🤔

[@MichaelBeeny]

Sorry Conor to burst your bubble. I know what you mean, valves do look good. Defiantly a product you to look at as well as listen.

[@mkfmkf55]

I had a Vincent SV-226 integrated in my system for 5 years, and I thought it was quite nice. But I've used other hybrid integrateds, and they weren't anything special. But now I very much enjoy my tube preamp and Class AB mosfet power amp.

[@robtitheridge9708]

I have a few valve power amps including QUAD11 and leak stereo 20 . i do not use them with there matching preams but with high quality solid state preamp simply because they sound better.

[@MichaelBeeny]

If I had to use a valve power amp, it would be the Quad 11. One of the better designs that actually measures quite well. A very good output transformer. Afterall the output transformer IS a valve amplifier.

[@ropeburn6684]

Class D isn't the issue, cheapest-as-possible class D is. Most, if not all of these tiny cheap "valve preamps" do indeed measure shoddily, with hilarious noise and distortion.

[@SheikhN-bible-syndrome]

Makes perfect sense to me

[@jontpt]

Low plate voltage tubes, or valves, have been around forever. Portable radios back in the day used them, as well as other battery operated devices...

[@MichaelBeeny]

Yes, very true but the valves used here are not such valves. In fact, valves made for battery equipment are almost impossible to get and the few available are silly money.

[@jontpt]

@@MichaelBeeny You definitely have a point there. I've restored several of these units in the past, but no more, haha. Prices are insane

[@jontpt]

@@MichaelBeeny however, I believe some of the voltage doubler circuits may drive the plates to around 100v, which would be pretty close to normal operating parameters. I think I'll buy one and do some measurements...

[@MichaelBeeny]

@@jontpt Don't forget these amplifiers need to be able to run on 24 volts, so that's only 48 volts.

[@jontpt]

@@MichaelBeeny true, but in theory you could double those 48v as well.

[@andymouse]

Wonderfully put.

[@kevinjekyll1521]

Yes I agree, I have been experiencing this for a while, I brought some really nice vintage Infinity IRS Beta's and what I heard was not what I was expecting. I thought everything would sound fantastic, but no, now only some things sounded great, the others no matter the volume sounded just not right. I upgraded all my cables and it just got worse, so I stopped and just listened. It took me a while, but I realized that I was hearing was things that I had not heard before, the fault was not with the equipment, or in fact me, but what I was listening to. Valve amps add even order harmonics which is the most acceptable form of distortion, but as you say, in a hybrid application, that distortion is just made louder. I still love the sound of a valve amp when I want to just use it for gentle background music, but when I really want to hear everything I just have to go classic A/B with a little power behind them and great speakers. My choice of speakers have become 1980's Infinity's, especially because of their EMIT drivers. Sorry for the long response, but I felt you might like to hear another no audiophile's perspective. Thanks for your post, it got me thinking again...

[@MichaelBeeny]

Hi Kevin. I appreciate all my viewers views. This is why I make such videos. I'm not Nieve enough to think my view are the ONLY correct ones. I do try and offer my opinions based on 60 years in the sound business. Working for Quad, Cambridge Audio, founder member of Monitor Audio. 5 years in retail. to name but a few. At the end of the day, if the sound you listen to, you are pleased with, that's the important thing. I appreciate your input.

[@splitprissm9339]

IIRC valve microphone amplifier are still popular in studios BECAUSE they don't clip harsh on peaks (eg from drums) - but that is again music production - limiter and exciter functions, not reproduction :)

[@popculture70]

I have one of the preamps you are talking about, and I understand everything you are saying. I have swapped out the valves for Mullards though, and the opamps for Muses 02. Howver, I'm sure all it is doing is adding distortion and colour, exactly as you say... Still, I am able to switch easily between the pure signal and the preamp signal to compare on the fly, and the preamp signal simply sounds richer and more pleasant to my ears. It adds what I can only describe as "sparkle" to the sound, a more 3D sound stage, which I really like.

[@MichaelBeeny]

The main thing is that if you like the results, nothing wrong with that. It's easy that it makes most recording sound OK. But you will lose out on the few very good recordings where you will lose that extra detail. I'm still not sure if it could make sense that most recording are OK but not great. Then I find a spectacular recording, then I know why I chose a none valve preamp, like the one on my last video.

[@popculture70]

@@MichaelBeeny As you have explained, distortion and colouration should logically make recordings sound worse and less like the music was intended to be. An oscilloscope will confirm it. I get it. However, in my experience, some loss of detail at certain frequencies allows other details to shine through. With my setup, the preamp really allows solo instruments, female voices, saxophones, pianos etc to elevate out of the mix. And since the frequencies are being manipulated by random emmissions of electrons, quantum mechanics essentially, it's infusing the music with an almost magical quality. We know that quanum behaviour is affected by presence of an observer... or, perhaps, listener ;)

[@Mark-rw3kw]

Tubes add harmonics that sometimes make the recording sound better, especially if the recording was made in a studio. In other cases, such as a recording made in a concert hall, the harmonics are already built into the recording as captured by the recording mics. OTOH, some recording engineers will add some reverb or other processing to a studio recording to do the same thing. Unfortunately, there is no amplification system that works best for all recordings.

[@popculture70]

@@Mark-rw3kw I think it comes down to "audio enthusiast" vs "audiophile". Audiophiles are concerned with sonic purity and aesthetics, while the enthusiast wants excitement and economy... loud, dynamic music and to hell with what it looks like. Tube preamps add excitement to music. I listen to a lot of 70s prog, 80s metal, 90s pop, classical, jazz, live concerts, you name it. The solo instruments pop out of the mix with my setup... Whether it's the saxophone in Dire Straits' Your Latest Trick or the riffing guitars on Thin Lizzy's Live and Dangerous album, Herbie Mann's flute or Hayley Westenra's voice... they soar in 3D space. The only music that disappoints is shoegaze music such as Slowdive where the intended effect of layered reverb guitars is swamped by excessive harmonics, and it doesn't really work. Like you say, no system is perfect for all music, but I'm a big fan of what these little tube preamps bring to the table.

[@MichaelBeeny]

@@Mark-rw3kw Hi Mark, of course if you like adding extras to your music, that is your preference. I would never dream of telling you that you are wrong, simply because that's what you like! Let's think what HiFi is all about. It's about re crating a piece of music as near as possible to the original performance. I think most people would agree to that. So, if that performance was flawed in some way and your amplifier hides that flaw, is that a good amplifier? No, it's not. The amplifier should not add or remove anything, if it does, it cannot be called a good amplifier. However, if you like what is added or removed, It's your preference, but it's not real HiFi. On the other side of the coin, if you are playing a really good recording, and are playing it on such a system, you are removing the real harmonics in the recording because of limited bandwidth and speed and adding your own different harmonics and distortion. You may like this but it's far from the destination of what HiFi should be.

[@elsaarmstrong-zp6ng]

Your videos very interesting! I am a valve fan because I like the soft clipping 2nd harmonic distortion ! I think it boosts the presence and makes the music sound almost live! I have also tried valves in the early stages feeding in solid stage F.E.T. Output and the results are very good! Matched pair Output valves like KT88, KT66 etc. As you rightly say are now very expensive (£ 130- 160 ) and I can’t afford to run them any more as I am now a pensonier! Some triode early pre amp valves are affordable but you have to watch Chinese cheapo types. If you buy through companies like Farnell you always get well made types that have been tested well! Companies like Farnell can’t afford to sell rubbish because it would damage their reputation! btw I have a question regarding valve equipment in general! Why can valve indirectly heated not use DC 6volt or 12 volt supply from a regulated linear smoothed psu to reduce hum? I know smpsu’s are noisy, unreliable, and no use for quality audio equipment! I have a GPO 48volt 10Amp DC linear Reg psu more than 50 years old and it still work’s perfectly today! What do you think? Fraser😊

[@MichaelBeeny]

Hi Fraser, it's been probably 50 years since I've worked with valves, apart from a kit I made for this channel about 4 years ago. I think one of the main reasons AC is used for heaters is that it's readily available directly from the mains transformer. For most applications, hum is not really an issue. Center taps across the 6.3 volts or even a 100 ohm pot with the tap going to ground, work quite well. In the 40s plus years ago, getting a stabilized 6.3 volts at maybe 10 amps would have been a very large and expensive thing to do, out of the question really. I have seen up market preamps with DC supplies, but these only need maybe about an amp, quite easy and cheap these days. To be honest, I cannot remember if there is/was any other technical reason for not using DC. I'm sure someone will know the answer. I'm just sorry it's not me!! Thank you for an interesting comment. Just a thought on clipping. The type of clipping should not be even thought about!! If you ARE clipping, then your amplifier is under powered. Common with valve amplifiers as they tend to be relatively low powered, unless you are rich, lol. Dose that not make sense??

[@airgead5391]

I think there is nothing against sticking in a pair of valves and using only the filaments: gives a nice glow, you can warm your hands if they are cold: all advantages you missed to mention LOL! You are right of course. I once tested a line amp with way too low voltage using grid leakage: measured awful, but was marketed with a whole mystic story about how the circuit "came to the designer while in hospital" Moreover the circuit was nicked from another manufacturer. If you made it bit work for a moment, the way it distorted took seconds to stabilize again at lower levels.

[@MichaelBeeny]

Yes, sorry I had forgotten those extra benefits. I will try harder on my next video lol.

[@x5-acousticguitarstuff.2]

Thank you for Answering this Important Question. Low Voltage Valve Amplifiers are a complete Joke.

[@rimmersbryggeri]

I like the ones where they just make the heater light up but dont use it in the audio path.

[@MickeyMishra]

Ahh! The magic of TUBES! 😉

[@davidharris730]

Valve preamps are probably just to achieve the magical valve sound. Accuracy was never the object.

[@MichaelBeeny]

I think they might have just met their goal then David. Not sure about being MAGICAL lol

[@Mark-rw3kw]

I am not a tube electronics expert, but my understanding is that a hybrid pre-amp or amp can have a tube (or tubes) in the power supply rectification, or the input buffer, or in the power amplification section (or some combination of these). If all three sections use tubes, it is clearly not a hybrid.

[@xstensl8823]

this is why i have gone back to Classical recordings. most pop/rock sounds terrible today. Classical recordings are engineered better for people with ears

[@MichaelBeeny]

That's probably very true.

[@VEC7ORlt]

Where does this pompous view come from? As if there isn't enough music to listen to? I get liking classical (I don't, its all boring to me, well except maybe Steve Reich and a few movie OSTs), but ''most X sounds terrible today" is just BS. Over the years I've collected about 6300 tracks - ranging from tracker music with 11k mono 8bit samples to 128kbps badly mastered mp3s to impeccable FLAC. Where does electronic music even fit here? Its not even recorded, its created.

[@andymouse]

Surly you don't go to any music for its engineering, you listen to what you like.

[@MichaelBeeny]

@@VEC7ORlt If all you listen to is PC made music, you are right. Almost any amplifier could be used and is. Look at all the idiots driving around in cars with thousands of watts blaring out annoying everyone in the area, side panels rattling. For this kind of noise there is no spec. If it's loud with ridicules amounts of bass lift, then the amplifier is good. If this is similar to your choice of music, my video will seam pompous. The sound (or noise) you make has no measurable standard because it's not REAL. You simply twiddle the knobs until the noise makes you happy. Nothing wrong with that. We all have a choice. As you correctly said, your music is not real it's just created. How could I make a video about comparing the difference between two different amplifiers when the playback medium has nothing real? It's an impossible task.

[@TranscendentBen]

What's even worse than clipped? Bass drum cranked up 10dB above everything else through a compressor so it "ducks" everything at each kick. For some insane reason, younguns like it.

[@MichaelBeeny]

Yes, that does drive me mad also.

[@joicejewerly5579]

Hi Michael , go for it, nice to hear from you🎉🎉🎉

[@MichaelBeeny]

It's OK, I have jumped off my soap box now lol

[@joelcarson9514]

There is an argument to be made for tubes in the preamplification chain in guitar amplifiers for introducing selective distortion and harmonics. Guitar players are looking for what is sometimes called "Tone" instead of "accuracy". Many "audiophiles" are looking for "sound" not "accuracy" and even more for "exclusivity". Sadly, most people have no clue that what they are listening to is the results of decisions made in the final mix by people who have no understanding of any of the production process except to "Make it loud so that it grabs the attention of the potential purchaser long enough for them to put it in their cart." If crap is all you hear, it gets to be what you expect. Because of it's very mechanical limitations, I can understand why vinyl is still a medium in regular use, it prevents the very worst of the abuse of the digital medium's potential by Philistines.

[@MichaelBeeny]

With a guitar amplifier you are purposely adding harmonics and distortion and that is the original sound. In the same way all acoustic instruments are full of harmonics. A good amplifier should reproduce these as exactly as the original but should NOT add extra stuff.

[@osliverpool]

Indeed, yes. As Michael says, Musicians are creating their own original sound, not reproducing someone else's sound, and that's an entirely different thing. A guitarist can make the sound however they like, and then the job of the listener's amp is to reproduce it the way it was made.

[@bazzaar1869]

The thing with electric guitars is you need to consider the amplifier as part of the instrument. Then you can unburden yourself of the restriction of fidelity in that use case of an amplifier.

[@AllboroLCD]

I cant speak for mixing tubes w/Class D, my rig has a tube buffer on a Class AB amp and I prefer the sound with than without.

[@sbwlearning1372]

I have doge 8 clarity valve preamp and a Hagerman labs MC trumpet phono stage into a Nord 2 600wpc classD power amp. That is my combo for keeps if the preamp or phono are upgraded they will be valves. If the power amp is updated it will be class D. To my ears a match made in heaven

[@AllboroLCD]

​@@sbwlearning1372 Very nice pairing of components there! They all seem to be at equal level price point speaking. I must ask, how often are you replacing tubes? Im on year 4 with the GE 5654W's in my buffer kit with no signs of quitting yet.

[@sbwlearning1372]

@@AllboroLCD I've had the doge 8 and the hagerman trumpet MC for 2 years the preamp is used 6/7 hours everyday and the phono gets used about 15 hours a week. The lifespan of my valves ( all 12ax7 variants) is around 10,000 hours depending on manufacturer and if military grade or not. I have a mix of old and new valves ready for replacement. I bought them when I got the hagerman and the doge clarity . The hagerman came with a full complement of mullards from Mr hagerman himself. He said the tubes supplied would last at least 5 years even if the stage was used 6 hours a day every day !!! I have been so impressed with the sound of both I haven't bothered replacing any of the valves.😁😁 I also have a xiang sheng DA -OB5II DAC which has a 12ax7 valve output. This is around 5 years old and is used for my CD T.V. music streaming from Bluetooth Xbox etc etc . This gets as heavily used as the preamp and is still sounding lovely. I think for amplification purposes valves burn out far far quicker I have read on forums that when driven hard everyday will need replacing in months instead of years. 🎧🎸🎵

[@sbwlearning1372]

@@AllboroLCD I've had the doge 8 and the hagerman trumpet MC for 2 years the preamp is used 6/7 hours everyday and the phono gets used about 15 hours a week. The lifespan of my valves ( all 12ax7 variants) is around 10,000 hours depending on manufacturer and if military grade or not. I have a mix of old and new valves ready for replacement. I bought them when I got the hagerman and the doge clarity . The hagerman came with a full complement of mullards from Mr hagerman himself. He said the tubes supplied would last at least 5 years even if the stage was used 6 hours a day every day !!! I have been so impressed with the sound of both I haven't bothered replacing any of the valves.😁😁 🎵🎸🎧

[@michaellundsrensen2292]

Clever words! So true!

[@paulstubbs7678]

I did see one hybrid amp where the valves did not effect the audio - as only the heaters were connected! As for %99 of them, why have a fragile glass envelope sticking it's head out the top waiting to be smashed - or is that done so they can sell you another one after the slipup.

[@MichaelBeeny]

Hi Paul, yes, I have heard that story floating around. That, if true, would be appalling. I have, so far never experienced such open deception. Most are like the ones in my video. Added mostly to fool the public but using junk unsuitable valves, but they look good. For some that's all they need.

[@paulstubbs7678]

@@MichaelBeeny With much of the crappy Class D and Bluetooth junk floating around you'd probably need the added distortion from too few volts on the wrong tubes before they would notice any difference.

[@splitprissm9339]

IDK, I have such a device - actually like it for speech and movies especially. With a small Behringer USB DAC because if you try driving that thing directly from a computer output you collect all kinds of hum, and the bluetooth mode is atrocious. Still draws much less idle power than the 1990s amplifier it replaced in that spot. Of course the valve plays the role of an exciter and not an amplifier enhancer, but that's the point and was always clear, no? It's a podcast, youtube and movies setup, not a HiFi setup of course. If it doesn't color the sound I'd be disappointed. Not guitar amp grade coloration, but some. And hey, if it's a 5532 not a 4558, it's already miles above a lot of stuff sold as HiFi :) --- Of course, we know there are valves designed for 12V on the anode. Even harder to find than audio specific valves. Won't find them in these devices I'm sure. --- You know real slew rate limiting doesn't "take detail away" but adds massive IMD while still passing naive THD tests, right? :)

[@HillsWorkbench]

The one I saw gave the tube stage so little gain that there was very littlte tube effect, just a little microphonic when wrapped on, otherwise pretty clean. I argued that there ought to be a pot to adjust the 2nd harmonic distortion created by this stage from clean to muddy.

[@MichaelBeeny]

Maybe if we added more valves of different sizes, we could make a musical instrument just by tapping each valve. It would have distortion and the valve sound for sure. The idea just needs some development.

[@TerryClarkAccordioncrazy]

The valve amplifier marketing is often based on a misleading claim that valves add something to the sound. The fact is that the only thing an amplifier can add is distortion. Furthermore, if a particular kind of distortion is your preference, you can do that far cheaper and more reliably by digital processing than some unpredictable array of tubes and transformers and their interactions with the speaker impedance.

[@terencekaye9948]

You can have all the best fastest most accurate and expensive gear on the planet including the most expensive speaker system on the planet, your still listening to a turntable or tape deck or cd. Weakest links! Try and find anyghing good that isn't accoustic strings or wood wind! Iv'e heard somepretty amazing sounding tube amps. Aren't they still making those? Also want to add, i have a quad 44 pre amp and it sounds like a pile of crapp. Not sure what Quad was thinking there. Too bad they aren't still around to try and redeem themselves. Keep up the great work Mike, love your videos input and opinions😊

[@MichaelBeeny]

I would have to agree with your comments on Quad preamps. Quad was forced to bring out transistor stuff because sale of the QUAD 2 and 22 preamps was falling fast. The 405 amplifier was one of the better ones of its day but slow by today's standards. In fact, quite valve like sound. The 33 amplifier was just dreadful into coils but worked well with the electrostatic. Current valve amplifiers are very expensive, giving the illusion they are wonderful. They are expensive because the valves are almost handmade and in small quantities. The transformers are full of expensive copper wire. Again, made in very small quantities, heavy, chassis made out of expensive materials, use of exotic timbers. They look good but it's the same valves, same circuits from 1950 check it out. When these were first made, they were very mass produced as so many people had HiFi in those days. Now few people have ANY interest in sound, it's all phones and sound bars. So, these same amplifiers are produced in expensive disguises for the rich that fool themselves that they are driving an expensive car. Afterall, if it cost a fortune and looks expensive, it's got to sound great.

[@jim9930]

Sal Marantz told his engineers to mimic the distortion characteristics of their tube amplifiers in their early transistor designs for one reason -customer preference (not accuracy). 1989 Collins Avionics director of engineering, Ray Adams; rang my phone with a serious problem: Their HP tube detector RF voltmeters were out of spares - they had 200 service centers worldwide with repair documentation/procedures written specifically for that meter and it's peak AM curves ( had to match exactly or thousands of test procedures for hundreds of aircraft would need very, very expensive worldwide approvals). Soooo, I built him a replica with a couple schottky diodes and a few tricks for half a million easy dollars (200 meters). -30dBm to 500vrms, 100KHz to 700MHz; silly to say tubes are not wideband or fast, eh? Both of these examples have something in common: 'dumb' down solid state devices to match tube curves. ie "preference" Tubes belong in only one place in audio = HISTORY ! Yes, some guitar players still think they need 'valves' to mimic their hero's sound; not so.

[@ronschauer839]

I still have one of those (relatively) early Marantz transistor amps. There is basically nothing remaining inside its cabinet now except for the front panel controls and the power transformer as I have repeatedly upgraded it over the years. I can attest that originally it was indeed very, VERY tube-like (but that was circa 1971 so it was "OK" at the time). Now all the working bits are modern, fast, and dead flat frequency-wise, and I absolutely love it. I would never, ever want it back the way it was when I first purchased it, nor would I recommend purchasing a vintage one. But it still "looks" like an original Marantz... 😄

[@jim9930]

@@ronschauer839 I had a Marantz 2230 (1972). A friend collects anything vintage tube; I always asked if he wanted them upgraded when repairs were necessary? "NO, ruins the value" 🥸

[@MichaelBeeny]

@@jim9930 It's a funny thing Jim, people do collect old amplifiers. Partly from nostalgia, my dad had one 60 years ago. However, 60 years ago they might have been the best around, By todays standard they mostly just sound fair. People like collecting and restoring stuff. I watch a guy repairing in great detail old radios from the 30s. Completely useless today, as few use medium wave anymore. As for the sound, well it's total crap mostly, but that's the way it was then.

[@ronschauer839]

@@jim9930 I understand. There is a long and quite boring story as to how I began the modifications to my amp (1060) about ten nanoseconds after the warranty expired and the output stages fried themselves for the **third** time in two years (and I did not abuse it in any manner). The original output sections were changed to "universal tiger" amps, aka: "flaming tiger" (if one was not careful with them). Then it remained in a more or less unchanged state for nearly 40 years. When it became time to re-cap it due to unacceptable amounts of hum and hiss, one thing led to another. A string of falling dominoes if you wish. The "universal tiger" output stages were replaced with NAP250 (clone) boards. Then the inadequacies of the remainder of the circuitry began to show themselves, and they were addressed one at a time. Presently it is fitted with an external phono preamp, self-designed preamp and tone sections, L12-2v4 output sections (modified), and so on. Its input-to-output total rise/fall time is under 1 microsecond and it is flat from around 5 hz to well over 100 khz (actually measured). As I said, I would NEVER want to return it to its original "vintage" fitment (though I have saved ALL the original parts right down to the screws and brackets). No regrets at all, and I don't even slightly care that it now has little or no resale value. I just really enjoy listening through it. 😁

[@jim9930]

@@ronschauer839 My friend had a 1060 in his collection. He liked the 'sound' of the single ended input, bootstrapped Vas; so I pulled the drivers and output transistors and replaced them with MJ11015/16 darlingtons and removed the current limiter transistors. Easily drive 4 ohm loads and sounded almost identical. Added a Vbe multiplier and ran the outputs a little hot (100ma) for slightly better high end - he was impressed. 1060's are similar to 2230 power stages, 2SD217 instead of 2SD897. You can do the same modification to most of the early Marantz without changing the sound, just more robust.

[@SuperFredAZ]

Agree with you completely. The preamps that run on 12 V are ridiculous. No one who ever designed a vacuum tube to operate at 12 V B+. Totally stupid. Quality vacuum tubes were designed for around 150 V or higher

[@MichaelBeeny]

To be fair they do run on a littler higher HT. Somewhere between 30 and 60 volts, fine for battery valves, but these are not battery valves. In fact, they are not even audio valves, but valves made for RF work. Wrong in so many ways.

[@TranscendentBen]

There's this, using your favorite search engine: "Motherboard with integrated Vacuum Tube audio stage" That one didn't last long, and I doubt it sold many. I've never seen one in the flesh. One might ask why don't any of these USB audio interfaces have any tubes in them? For one thing they'd cost twice as much just for the extra circuitry to support and power the tube, but those interfaces only sell if they have REALLY GOOD SPECS and they won't if the signal is going through a tube/valve.

[@x5-acousticguitarstuff.2]

Some People confuse Detail with Edge/Surface Diffraction. So I Tame this apparent detectable Brightness. I attach an 8mm thick FELT RING around the Speakers Tweeter, so to help Attenuate HF Surface Diffraction. This can be a hidden Detail Killer or Color that makes some Speakers Tiring to listen to. Could you Please TEST this Idea so I know my Ear's are OK.

[@paulstubbs7678]

Maybe I'll get one of those boxes, but I'll add a switch, labelled 'HiFi', & 'Distort', rather than the more normal labelling of 'bypass', & 'active' I don't have any valve design & building experience (other than melting a grid in a 6CM5), I obviously cannot do any worse than what's out there.

[@MichaelBeeny]

Sounds good idea Paul. You can use HiFi mode for good recordings and crap mode (woops, valve mode) for poor recordings.

[@familiekruit6068]

I didn't know they actually passed a audio signal through those valves. I thought they only powered the heater so that it emits light.

[@Mark-rw3kw]

The idea of a hybrid amp , or hybrid pre-amp, or hybrid system (tube pre-amp with solid state amp) is to get something in-between a pure tube and a pure solid state setup. So criticizing a hybrid amp is in fact severely criticizing a full tube amp. Also, I don't think it is fair to judge some of the cheap tube equipment by the included cheap (and not so good sounding) tubes, because they expect that most customers will swap the tubes out with more expensive and better sounding ones. Some tube amps can actually be purchased without any tubes for that reason, although it is usually not a bad idea to purchase it with some cheap stock tubes even if they don't sound good, just to verify that amp is actually not defective when it arrives, and then start tube rolling after that.

[@318ishonk]

With the cheap hybrid valve (pre) amps I wonder if the valve is even in the circuit. Might only have the heaters powered, eh? Interested to see @SkunkieDesignsElectronics review of some of those devices. I'm confident she'll look into the circuits and measure distortion levels.

[@MichaelBeeny]

I have heard of at least one where the valve was not in circuit. I don't know if that is true or not. Everyone I have seen, at least the valve was in circuit. The ironic thing is that the alleged one where the valve is not in circuit, probably sounds better. lol

[@charlybeagrie1119]

Sir, what equipment do you use for your own listening pleasure?

[@MichaelBeeny]

Hi Charly, it does change quite often, simply because of my channel. You cannot talk about things you have not experienced or tested the item over the years. All of my music is in the form of FLAC files on my PC. Soused largely from my then, very large collection of CDs. I no longer have ANY solid media. I use a D10 DAC, my speakers (at present) are Monitor Audio Silver 500s. My amplifiers, alternate between the L12/2 and the dual version of the TDA 7293 driven by the Clone Accuphase modified kit preamp. All of which I've shown on my channel. These items are switched out at times when new stuff is built and tested. So far, I find this system very clean, dynamic and detailed. Not a valve in site lol

[@ladronsiman1471]

I have Quad amps and 57 speakers ... The are still very hard to beat..Could you talk about ZOTL amplifiers ..

[@MichaelBeeny]

Sorry, I have never seen or heard any of the ZOTL products. Way outside my budget. Maybe if someone will send me one for Christmas, I will be very pleased to test and listen to it. Don't hold your breath, however.

[@thinkIndependent2024]

I with the wise people in the comments I'm not sure you understand how additional harmonic mix works I use heated Tube that get to 300 volts color for the harmonics and warm wide sound stage, Most don't use the 100 percent of time but thats what multiple inputs are for

[@sitaram.electronics]

Best tech sir ❤❤❤

[@davidatrakchi2707]

Thank Michael, I've built my preamp mainly as a passive device, selecting among four inputs and an alps motorized potentiometer (for the sake of not rising from the cauch) I also added an active gain stage based on Korg which I bought as a complete kit from the US, they say it adds some of the sweet second harmonic which is typical to tubes. So I can select between no gain and with gain, must be careful to lower the volume when these extra 16dB come rushing in. I can't tell which one I like more, I guess it depends on the kind of music and mainly on my mood at that moment. And, let's not forget those 2 illuminated UV meters with their bouncing needles....

[@MichaelBeeny]

16 dB jump in level can make you spill your tea for sure. lol. Illuminated meters ALWAYS make the sound better!

[@MickeyMishra]

Call me nuts, but I often find people who have a very peculiar way of dress seem to have the best idea on how to get Tube gear to sound great. They either have long hair. An affair with a particular brand of libation. Possibly an Unprescribed RX apart of their daily regimine. For best results? A prestigious amount of ear hair signifies Dominance in his or her field, and is a seal of a quality execution in circuit design excellence. But that's just my findings anyways...

[@MichaelBeeny]

Don't forget, a rather large amount of body odder!! lol

[@CraftyZA]

I get what you are saying. I hate these chinese valves. Some of them even ship with LEDs inside to make them glow. I've got a Naim NAP250 with the avondale upgrades running with a preamp in SRPP configuration with ECC88 valves. Speakers will be my next focus. Currently They are Monitor Audio Silver 6's Girl from Ipanema and a few other recordings has never sounded this good... to me at least. I've also build a phono stage with 3 x 12ax7 based on the marantz 7 design. So listening to vinyl, the signal goes from the 12ax7 in phono to the ecc88's in pre then goes to the BUV20's in the avondale. Those BUV20's are magical, and runs circles around the MJ's from the original avondale. I've got my bias set to 80mv, and it runs as stable as can get for hours on end.

[@MichaelBeeny]

The ECC88 is also an RF valve made for VHF circuits, but it's not all bad, at least it's a Mullard. lol

[@TheZpilot55]

Dito. Thanks a brunch!

[@johngore5127]

There's nothing more a music producer likes than to be able to market the music as "remastered" as if there's an improvement on the result. This usually means digitizing the original analog recording and making them sound bright. Too bright in my opinion, to the point that they are unlistenable. One of the reasons why all original analog recordings cost so much. Even finding a mildly worn original analog release sounds way better than anything you can get today. And by the way, very few new vinyl recording are completely analog (designated by the AAA designation). What you are really getting is a CD on vinyl with all the limitations of vinyl.

[@EricLin00886]

Very good video!

[@MichaelBeeny]

Thanks Eric, good to see you here also, always welcome. See, I remember you!!

[@englishsteve1465]

It is possible to make a valve amp sound good. It is even possible to make a good source for it by dragging a bit of a diamond along a spiral scratch ! BUT both can be done better AND very much cheaper, by employing the best tech we currently have in the digital realm. Not employing superior tech shows a lack of understanding, or worse, rose tinted spectacles and sheer bloody mindedness ! lol

[@MichaelBeeny]

There are valve amplifiers out in the market that sound OK but ANY amplifier that ADDS anything is not in my mind a so called HIFI amplifier. A good amplifier should add nothing but gain. However, if some people like the sound of distortion, and don't like detail, I cannot argue with that. This kind of product should be called an effects box, not a HiFi amplifier. There is room for both products in the market. A valve amplifier is simply floored in its technology. The output transformer is one item. This can really make an amazing different to all aspects of the design. It's just sad one has to be used.

[@craigenputtock]

I think the Fever 6J1 is the only cheap tube preamp that actually uses the tubes for amplification, without chip amps. There's a review on KZbin about it, and the review isn't too positive.

[@MichaelBeeny]

I'm pleased I'm not the only one lol.

[@MichaelBeeny]

Like at bit of fun?? kzbin.info/www/bejne/qJe6oYuMiKybpZYsi=jVH5wPRMMfNtr5X0 Hope you get it!

[@CarlVanDoren61]

Zero Zone bad tube circuit design Preamp should have been recalled

[@Douglas_Blake_579]

Audiophile hoola-hoops and pet rocks.

[@stevenbliss989]

Hear, Hear! :)

[@sxair2285]

I bought a small tube buffer amp on Ali for about $15 running on a 12VDC 2A "wall wart". It has a built in Buck Converter on the board that generates 186VDC for the tubes!

[@MichaelBeeny]

I have tested 2 of these in the past, one had 36 volts, the other 55 volts, both from Buck converters. Obviously, I cannot test every model. 185 volts is a good voltage. They are still not audio valves but cheap and nasty RF valves.

[@x5-acousticguitarstuff.2]

New Subscriber.

[@MichaelBeeny]

Welcome, good to see you here.

[@moshezuhmih]

So you are saying that all the hybrid amplifiers that exist on the market today, even those that are designed and built at the highest level by serious audio companies, are not good, inaccurate and do not give an audiophile sound? Listen, this is a serious statement

[@MichaelBeeny]

I clearly cannot say ALL because I have not tested them all. Basically it's 100-year-old technology. A valve is just a valve. You cannot do much to a valve to improve it. Almost nothing has been done over the last 30 years on new products. The same valves are being used today as were used 50 years ago. By and large the circuits are also much the same. The only differences are the valves and transformers are now 100 times more expensive. Because of this price difference and lack of quantity production. Amplifiers today cost a fortune. These products were fantastic in the 50s and 60s, they were the best at that time, it was also all we had, many people had HiFi based on valves. They were very massed produced, most people had HiFi in one form or another. These days, almost no one has ANY kind of HiFi. It's just sound bars and crappy telephones. Because of this, HiFi has become a very limited range of products. Heading this scramble are so called Audiophile products. Valve amps head this list. Make the products into something they are not. Use 4 transformers when one will work just as well. Use expensive metals, plate them in gold etc Add all kinds of bullshit that drives up the cost but makes ZERO difference. Add a $200 mains cable. At the end of the days, it's the same floored amplifier. Things have moved on and better, many modern amplifiers are so fast, they can extract detail, only dreamed about years ago. However, if you have thousands of $$ to spend on such products, and many do look good for sure. Sit back, heat the room and kid yourself they truly sound better. Afterall, if it costs the earth, it MUST sound better. As for hybrids, wrong on all levels. Why make an amplifier or preamp, and let's assume it's a good one. Then add a valve that will limit bandwidth, add noise, add distortion, slow the amplifier down, remove detail. AND DO THIS ON PURPUSE? It's like buying a quality car and driving with the brakes on, it simply does not make sense. However, if YOU feel it's better, that's all that matters. Many people think that invisible gods exist!!

[@moshezuhmih]

@@MichaelBeeny People like tube based amps because they just sound better. More organic, more natural and more musical. You call it a slow and distorted sound so be it In the end you buy equipment that will draw you in and make you want to listen more and more. In my personal experience amplifiers based only on transistors do not do this. It may sound fast and accurate but analytical and boring.

[@TerryClarkAccordioncrazy]

​@@moshezuhmihCan you hear these differences in an ABX blind comparison ?

[@moshezuhmih]

@@TerryClarkAccordioncrazy yes i can I had a least 20 amplifiers. And I allways loved the sound of tube amps/ preamp much more than ss amps/peamps

[@TerryClarkAccordioncrazy]

@@moshezuhmih Did you conduct a blind ABX comparison? Because if you didn't, then expectation bias inevitably comes into play. Just the visuals of seeing the pretty vacuum tubes may be enough to create the impression of a different sound.

[@davidcarr2216]

Well this is right at the heart of HiFi BS. Hifi isn't True Fidelity. It's about the consumerisation of audio. True Fidrlity Audio is about the asbscence of artefacts and so well designed components are not going to: Do this, And sound like this, And make your Pink Floyd sound different/better. HiFi can literally mean anything , anyone wants it to mean - it"s post-modern audio 😁. BUT the HiFi Rabbit Holes run very deep and wide and there are aways nerw ones being dug to catch the OCD types. Really well designed components simply don't have any sound at all - they are inaudible in the signal path. Find out what REAL unamplified music sounds like, no mics, amps , or spealers in the chain. It sounds very clear, clean and tonally accurate. It doesn't have depth, or layering or exagerated bass or anything similiar because it doesn't have the artefacts which produce these effects.

[@sbwlearning1372]

So if well designed components add no sound does that mean technically/ theoretically a full high end valve system from the 60s/70s will sound identical to a full high end solid state from the 70s/80s and a full high end classD / 32 bit digital system from today ???? High end doesn't mean Megabucks car/ house prices but well made well designed gear. After 40 years of listening and buying I've settled on full valve phono stage valve preamp and 32 bit DAC and classD 600wpc power amp. To these ears far better than the class A pre and power amp they replaced

[@TerryClarkAccordioncrazy]

Yes, true live music often sounds very different than the sweet sound that audiophiles seem to seek. I think that's why many musicians aren't very bothered about obsessing over hifi kit, because they get to hear real live instruments all the time. The real acoustic sound of some instruments can be surprisingly rough and harsh, but also satisfying in that there is no compression.