Hydrogen boilers v natural gas boilers which is best, comparing hydrogen to natural gas.

[@carlmonger9619]

That's a good first Intro for the younger and new operatives coming into the trade. Some of us will only catch the first phase if hydrogen is introduced but this sort of easy to watch and understand video will be invaluable for us and mostly new entrants. 👍

[@poormanskint3008]

Thanks for sharing your knowledge Derek, its always appreciated to hear someone else's experience and perception of good know how, and interpretation of the gas regs. After reading some of the comments regarding heat pumps being as good as gas heating, I feel I have to digress into it and share my views based on experience. I'm a multiskilled electromechanical engineer working with electrical, gas, refrigeration/aircon and heat pumps, and other disciplines, and I would always recommend gas heating as a more economical, practical and reliable choice where natural gas is available. Against the fragile claims of the high efficiencies of COPs and SEERs, along with the high maintenance and high installation and running cost associated with air sourced heat pumps. That in turn have to rely on supplementary electric heating when its COP bottoms out on cold low humid days, where the outdoor unit has to be located within a specific area of sufficient air change and air movement around it, in addition, uses electric elements to defrost the outdoor unit coil equating to a 1:1 COP. In other words, 1 KW in and 1 KW out for the necessary duration of when the electric heating and defrosting has to switch on. Most air sourced refrigeration or aircon/heat pump systems are only as efficient as the designers and manufacturers claim for the first 3 days after commissioning, after which many external variables start to fractionally reduce those claims and increase running costs. Ideally, regular checking and maybe cleaning of the outdoor coil by washing it at least once a week and cleaning the indoor coil filter at least once a week. Followed by washing the indoor unit coil at least once a year, along with the fans, may maintain the high efficiency claims providing that the outdoor conditions remain ideal for the ideology of heat pumps, however will involve time, effort and labour costs unless you clean them your self, and pay for annual or bi annual servicing including legal leak checks. To reduce these fractional inefficiencies that will only increase to larger fractions, the coils can be designed to have a larger space between the tubes and heat exchanger fins, but will increase the initial outlay costs. Increasing the mains supply from 100 amp to 150 amp to support the additional mains load to replace a gas heating system with a suitably sized heat pump with supplementary electric heating not just so the heat pump functions. But to get the hot water supply up to an acceptable temperature so the water is hot, and not just warm, would cost much more than 50 quid. The increase in fuse size would cause an unsafe condition that would cause over loading of the existing supply cable, the existing meter, the existing meter tails, the existing consumer unit or dist board isolator and its busbars, and maybe even affect the short circuiting capacity of the fuse in the case of a fault. And the way that the national electric grid is starting to become overloaded along with the world shortage of sub stations to replace the ones that are well overdue with being replaced. A substantially sized standby petrol or diesel generator of sufficient duty would be required to keep warm and heat water in the event of a blackout. Unless of course a home has a roof at least the size of 2 tennis courts covered in solar panels, a 200 feet high 30 kw wind turbine. And a suitably sized UPS battery storage system to supplement the lack of power being generated during the long dark hours, when the wind speed isn't sufficient enough to maintain an acceptable RPM for the wind turbine to generate sufficient AC power, or the sky is overcast during the day causing a low output on the solar panels. At least with gas, a gas fire or gas cooker can be used to heat both the home and boil water in the event of a blackout or any other reason for having no power supply. The initial financial outlay for installing an air sourced serviceable heat pump system on par with gas heating, just isn't practical or even feasible unless the end user is very wealthy, or is forced into to debt just to maintain a minimum standard of living in the the 21st century, due to the conjecture resulting from what is now called climate change. CO2 eh, CO2 has a GWP of 1 and a TEWI of 1, most refrigerants used in refrigeration, aircon and heat pumps have a GWP/TEWI between 3 and almost 4000 times that of CO2 if they leak into the atmosphere. Most of the ones with a lower GWP can only be used on small systems due to their potential flammability if they leak, as they are made up of a blend consisting of propane and or butane, which when burned is the same as burning natural gas. The production of refrigerants leaves a high carbon footprint in the same way producing green and blue hydrogen does, however the flammable refrigerants are not intended to be used as fuels but are just as explosive. I've always wondered why they don't use carbon capture and store the CO2 from the POC of mass power generation and other processes, to provide processes that actually need CO2 such as making steel, calcium's, refrigerants, booze and pop etc, instead of intentionally producing CO2 and leaving a carbon footprint, rather than reducing it using the CO2 from the by products. As for the NOX, well it looks like we might get smog's like they do in other parts of the world. That could be the next environmental concern once we have lowered our carbon footprints. Catalysts may be the solution. Some of the plant and equipment that I work with requires approximately 2- 3 MW of gas for 5 package burners, operating within the 200 - 300 C temperature range and runs 7 days a week day and night on one of 3 or more production lines. I would love to see an electrically powered replacement for the gas burners, if it was supplied from the grid, it would have to be supplied and utilised at a voltage at least 3 KV, or 11 KV for practicality due to cable sizing, along with redesigning the new equipment to improve its safe use and scrapping the existing equipment due to the cost of retro fitting the redesigned safety measures. In addition to drawing extra load on the grid, which has to be fuelled with a green supply, otherwise it negates the efforts and associated costs of changing to a more environmentally friendly energy to heat. This would also mean one or more substations being manufactured that would leave a high carbon footprint, due to not being guaranteed of being manufactured from a 100% green energy source. Thanks again and please keep the videos coming and sharing your knowledge.

[@blackhoundrise8431]

Amazing stuff. I’m not a gas engineer. Just wanna do my bit for the enviro. In my opinion Earth is messed up beyond saving but I can’t give up on the children who will be inheriting our mess and the mass confusion that’s out there. Keep up the good work on educating us all. I’m sure I can make an informed decision one what boiler to get for my house renovation. 👍🏽👍🏽

[@chrisperrins8082]

Great presentation. I now understand the difference between blue and green hydrogen and how each are made. If we use green hydrogen then we need to have more forests (if that’s possible!) to soak up the CO2 during the manufacturing process. The worrying thing are the Nox production and the consequences of the smallest leaks.

[@michaelrose7258]

Brilliant presentation as usual Derek. Thanks mate

[@johnboy1232]

Great video learned a lot about the subject from your video .Thank you.

[@jockster5525]

Excellent 👌 thanks for your efforts and sharing your experience with us ..all very good information here . Heat lecture on this subject 😁

[@katbrit]

I found this really interesting and took a lot from it 🙂

[@alexandruleonarda.3673]

Very informative , thank you. Anyway, why not using mostly electricity for our needs?

[@neilrobinson3083]

How would they go on about burying the co2 and where would they find the space.

[@danwyllie309]

Great video. Very informative. Do you think because of the NOx the government may sway more towards electric boilers and air source heat pumps for use in domestic homes? Do you think this is the end coming to heating engineers or do you think they would be used to install future heating appliances?

[@tomkatgastraining]

In my opinion and what I have seen and been told gas engineers are here to stay but the government will be pushing for heat pumps in new builds after 2025

[@farukadam1696]

I preferred natural gas Regards Faruk 👍

[@blackhoundrise8431]

I also agree the gov should be investing in getting solar panels and battery solar systems installed in homes. ASHP and GSHP are too costly and not many people are fully qualified yet to install those properly and most homes in UK are not well insulated. They cost too much for homes. Businesses, schools, hospitals, office buildings etc those big things will work fine and on some new builds.

[@micahb6050]

The heating peak is in winter and batteries would not be able to store enough for seasonal swings in demand despite increased wind in winter but batteries could do daily demand shift for solar to evening peak. Large heat ground or water source heat pumps feeding district heating might be a better option with less disruption than a heat pump in each house. Could bulk switch street by street converting off gas network, like would need to convert gas network sector by sector like they did sector by sector for Natural Gas Conversion, but only remove Natural Gas once connected and up and running on district heating, so could do conversion all year round, where as Hydrogen conversion can only be done in Summer, as those who don't have hydrogen ready boilers and/or electric appliances would need more than an hour to swap out boiler and/or appliances. The whole sector would need to be ready before pipes filled with hydrogen. With electric conversion and/or district heating those wishing to delay could but would be more expensive to not be done at some time as street by street changeover, especially when full carbon climate pollution costs added to gas price as will be in future. Electric Induction cooker tops lead to less NOx levels in the home as well less overheating in summer, and are more controllable, but have to use suitable steel or Iron pans, but most are.

[@abchannel3737]

Excellent

[@222inverter]

I think you should also take into account the production of natural gas and the Co2 burnt in that process (as you did with hydrogen)..so it's equal..

[@frosty_soda]

Will it be Hydrogen Safe Register? No more Gas Safe?

[@YoutubeHero666]

Still a gas so they should be ok to be called gas safe 😜

[@chrisbailey4759]

What is the second most abundant liquid on our planet after water counting salt and fresh as one liquid? Which trace gas is vital for all life on earth especially plant life ?

[@danwyllie309]

Oil 😂

[@accesszero4803]

Didnt the ship blow up due to the lead and chemicals contained in the pain?

[@sloughone1]

Bracing wire snapped (possible corrosion and metal fatigue) in a tight turn on landing, ripped a hole in a gasbag. German investigation found poor electrical conductivity between the outer fabric and frame leading to sparks. At the low speed on landing leaking hydrogen was not ventilated away unlike at speed. The next zeppelin (Graf Zeppelin II) was modified to correct these faults but by then WWII started so they scrapped it and demolished the hangars at Frankfurt.

[@johncatto5019]

So I guess what you would take from that is that we simply don't have the technology in place to change over to this without causing massive cost and disruption. No doubt the technology will come, but when ?

[@whitebear5405]

I'm not exactly sure how you can compare hydrogen boilers to natural gas boilers as no one has made a hydrogen boiler yet

[@tomkatgastraining]

You can go and see them working if you like at the hydrogen house or village.

[@poormanskint3008]

Most boilers and some package burners are hydrogen ready. The fact that the manufacturers have considered this to future proof their products is a pointer to still having the choice of gas central heating, or maybe a heat pump as a second choice f you can afford the initial outlay and running costs.

[@ElTelBaby]

The cost of all this conversion should be spent on fitting Solar Panels on every ROOF along with a say 1Kw wind turbine;... taking every Home OFF GRID... Any surplus electricity is fed back in2 the GRID

[@Candisa]

Small wind turbines don't work, but I fully agree converting the gas grid to hydrogen is a terrible idea. With a combination of solar panels on every roof, large wind turbines wherever they're possible, tidal water turbines... There could be an abundance of electric energy for the needs of the population, even factoring in the population growth, electric mobility, electric heating, digital economics... Hydrogen can be a solution to store surplus electricity, but even for that it's not the best option because of the losses that go with generating hydrogen from electricity and back.

[@delboy6384]

Great vid again, but the hysteria being created for people who just want to press a button or turn a dial when they get home to heat it is quite frankly ridiculous. With rising energy costs for the consumer, who will be able to afford these systems.

[@MrStarfox1980]

building a huge green energy plant now in canada nfld, via a partnership with germany

[@CrashUK28]

solar/wind to Hydrogen if it can be storage underground ready for winter. adding 20% Hydrogen to gas will reduce gas require by 50%

[@micahb6050]

Why do you think adding 20% vol Hydrogen to Natural Gas will lead to 50% less gas being used. 20% is only 6% of energy due to lower energy density by volume of Hydrogen than Natural Gas. Please share your working on that 50% and)or explain what 50% of. But so much gas used in UK if done would be equivalent to millions of cars off roads. So we should go for it asap starting with adding 2% Hydrogen at St Fergus and then build up as more hydrogen available till hit 20% limit at homes, or any lower limit at other customers. The goverment need to change the Pipeline regulations to allow up to 20% hydrogen now trials have been a sucess. The gas quality limits should be a new free open industry standard rather than baked into legislation. Legislation obliges industry to demonstrate it is safe. HSE enforces this. We should also get millions of cars off the roads with modal shifts to public transport.

[@CrashUK28]

@@micahb6050 On a BTU/lb basis, Hydrogen has about 2.5 times the energy density of methane. So, if you burn one pound of hydrogen vs one pound of natural gas, you will get 2.5 times the energy.12 Aug 2021

[@joetodd7944]

And new pipe work and new radiators it means ripping up floors and chasing walls

[@kevinw7419]

Well the BIG QUESTION no one is asking is are we going to move to Hydrogen or a Hydrogen blend or NOT? T IT NEEDS ANSWERING BY GOVERNMENT??.

[@tomkatgastraining]

The blend is happening

[@kevinw7419]

I know about the small town blend experiment! But we have not been told the blend mix will actually happen. Is it going to happen??

[@kevinw7419]

Will it go ahead???

[@tomkatgastraining]

@@kevinw7419 with what we as training centres have been told it looks most likely it will happen but no one can say for sure we could get a new government that says fook it we can’t afford going carbon free so we will stay as we are. I think this is all too much of a rush our government should concentrate on giving us 100% green electricity first before doing anything with gas

[@jamesbulmer301]

@@tomkatgastraining let's hope for this option a government that stops spending on shit

[@davidrobbins9401]

👍👍👍👍👍👍

[@SuperWayneyb]

🤘😎🤘

[@imaginehomes3871]

When we use electric to create hydrogen, then hydrogen will be more expensive than electric. The power companies know this and so they know people won't pay for it. You have to add the cost of source fuel (electric) to the cost of generating hydrogen (at the hydrogen generating facilities). The hydrogen generating plants are massive and the loans to build them will have to be paid for in the cost of the hydrogen too on top of the operating costs. Assuming the average COP over a year for a heat pump is 4 then the heating bill for a house will quite literally a quarter the cost of running hydrogen heating even if electric is the same price as gas (which it won't be). Even with a COP of 2 (it's never that low!!) then the heating bill on hydrogen will be at least double that for electric. Oh and the power companies can uprate your incoming supply to 150 amps for about £50. No really they just change the fuse. The power companies know that when hydrogen costs more then electric then people will just switch to heat pumps anyway and then they have wasted their money building the hydrogen creating facilities, so they just won't build it in the first place. And then there is the integrity of INTERNAL gas pipes. And what about all this gas hobs, range cookers and so on? It's impractical. Here's my deal: I'll install solar panels, a heat pump, a whole new heating system and a car charger for £100 per month on finance (if you have off road parking) and I'll kill off your petrol or diesel bill if you get an electric car as you can charge from the solar at the weekend for free - that alone will pay your finance costs for the whole system. For £125 a month I'll air condition your home in summer using the heat pumps running off the solar panels (ice cold water in fan assisted rads - yes that's real). Now here's the current energy company plan: Generate 5% hydrogen (although new legislation MAY bring this to 10%) by 2030, then ban the sale of appliances that use natural gas by 2035.. Oh dear. So looking at it another way: They plan is NOT TO generate 90% to 95% of our gas needs using hydrogen. So what is this showing. We will all be on heat pumps by 2050. They put some hydrogen into the gas lines by 2035 - like they put ethanol into petrol. We will all replace our gas boilers in 2033 knowing we won't be able to buy one in 2035, all in a mad rush so we can get 15 more years from gas. That will be the last gas boiler we ever have. We will all have electric induction hobs too.

[@tomkatgastraining]

The hydrogen making plants will use their own wind farms to make the hydrogen it’s one of the things that has been set out from the start. You also haven’t mentioned the up front costs and the implication’s of heat pumps and the upgrading of the national grid to supply all that extra electricity. I know you said you can get finance to cover the cost but who will finance the government to pay for everyone to change over to electric because they way prices are going up on everything no one will be able to afford the U.K. going carbon free

[@georgelonghurst2672]

Heat pumps are differently not the solution, they won't work for most households. Plus the cost would be insane to get them to run efficiently (insulating costs, Underfloor heating)

[@georgelonghurst2672]

You couldn't fianance it for 100 a month, the cost would be some where between 30000 to 50000

[@imaginehomes3871]

@@georgelonghurst2672 You don't need the insulation actually. By 2035 you'll have fan assisted radiators. It's easy to get 15KW or 18KW from a heat pump. By 2035 they will cost £1000 to buy an 18KW model (well in today's money). You use it with a twin coil cylinder on s plan with fan assisted radiators that cool your rooms in summer using ice cold water. Solar panels driving the heat pump will help quite a lot with bills too and you'll have no bills at all in spring, summer or autumn. Hydrogen boilers will cost a lot more to run than heat pumps because they will use 4 times as many KW and hydrogen will cost more, so they won't go down that route. By 2035 it won't matter how much cheaper natural gas is, you won't be able to fit a boiler that consumes natural gas. There will be no hydrogen system in place so what will people do? They can freeze or convert to heat pumps - or plan ahead and put a boiler in before 2035 even if it's not needed yet. Anyway, energy companies can easily just put in a second sup[ply that goes to your heat pump on a lower tariff. There is so much they can do to ween us off gas.

[@imaginehomes3871]

@@georgelonghurst2672 That's not correct. You can run a heat pump on an s plan system with radiators, a cylinder and a normal central heating pump. Pipe sizes increase as 22mm is maxed out at 6KW, 28mm at 10KW. To adapt an existing system with 22mm pipes, you cut off the ground floor rads and run a second set of 22mm for them. You tee the new 22mm into new 28mm that runs off the heat pump and you need new 28mm 2 port valves plus a new pump with a 1 inch inlet and outlet (Like the Wilo Pico Yonos 25-6-130). You use normal central heating controls. You can re-use your old ones if you like. By 2035 you'll be able to get heat pumps for £1000 in todays money easily enough. They are just silly prices right now but that will change. In fact one heat pump manufacturer has said it will have heat pumps for £1000 within the next few years - they have just been bought by Octopus Energy. Once the actual heat pumps are cheaper, and they will be, the conversion costs will be £4000, maybe £5000 with no solar.

[@ram64man]

Just send the c2 to bottling plants, bio food for animals and plankton again which can be burned or used to biogas

[@manoo422]

You dont want to be anywhere near a hydrogen explosion! Its less of an explosion and more of a detonation..!!

[@deanfielding4411]

Having a 20% blend isn’t like taking 1,000,000 cars off the road, that’s false accounting. Until we have green hydrogen AND a fully decarbonised electricity grid, then we’re making no difference to reducing CO2. I really don’t think this has been thought through at all.

[@tomkatgastraining]

They actually claim it’s like taking 2,5 million cars of the road but most say definitely a million and they are talking about the co2 produced by the boiler not the production of the gas.

[@deanfielding4411]

@@tomkatgastraining Fair enough, but as we all breathe the same air and live on the same planet, they really need to take into account the whole picture. Also worth bearing in mind the is yet to be a single successful Carbon capture storage system at scale.

[@tomkatgastraining]

@@deanfielding4411 yes we do Dean but to what sacrifice we still need to eat and live let’s hope the world not just the U.K. and sort this mess out

[@stevenyates6732]

I feel better with 20% I guess less Co2 and Co from boilers

[@addaplaster4976]

Is it the end of gas boilers? Is the ennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnndd? Boooom. With a Big mushroom cloud in the background

[@ryanjones7921]

FFS,, I just spent £900 notes on a Gas fired BBQ because I got fed up of paying £100 plus each summer for a replacement bbq,, now , by 2023, I might have to buy a new Hydrogen boiler and A new Calor Hydrogen gas bottle,,,

[@ryanjones7921]

Or maybe Traeger May of come out with a replacement Jet and regulator replacement kit by then

[@whitefields5595]

Remember Town Gas was up to 60% hydrogen

[@deanfielding4411]

I don’t think Hydrogen either can practically or should be used. It take so much renewable energy to make hydrogen and it’s so inefficient when compared with heat pumps. For Example: If normal hydrogen process is used it doesn’t solve the climate crisis as it is mostly made from fossil fuels, if green hydrogen is used it would be 3x less efficient than direct electric heating, after the losses in making, distribution and burning of the hydrogen. Remember, a heat pump is 300% efficient, direct electric element is 100% efficient and hydrogen burned in boilers is 30% efficient. In addition to this it also doesn’t solve air quality problems as even using this in boilers will continue to pollute the air with nitrogen dioxides and other pollutants harmful to health. Whilst I’m open minded and welcome new tech such as hydrogen and see some of its niche use cases, sadly I don’t think putting it in the heating network is a good idea based on the evidence I can see. To summarise if you start with 1kWh of renewable electricity you can either: A) make Hydrogen, distribute and burn it and get 0.3kWh of heat into the home B) use it to put 0.925kWh of heat in via a direct electric heater (accounting for 7.5% grid losses) C) Use it to run a heat pump which will put 3.5kWh of heat (more than 10x!) more heat delivered into the home per kWh of renewable energy than Hydrogen. Therefore for this reason alone I think Hydrogen is a terrible idea that will be expensive too.

[@danwyllie309]

How much renewable engery would be needed to go fully electric? How would you fit air source heat pumps in flats? If they went electric boiler route for flats, they would need 4 times more power than natural gas. I think the technology is still at its infancy and greater advancements to come.

[@deanfielding4411]

@@danwyllie309 A lot of renewable energy is needed, but it’s still by far the most efficient way to provide heat and via a heat pump is even more efficient. I don’t understand why you say direct heat is 4x more electric than gas? Gas via boilers is about 90% efficient with a good condensing boiler. Direct electric heat with a bar heater or fan heater is 100% efficient and a heat pump is around 400% efficient because a heat pump uses electrical energy to move heat into the house now make heat. Does that make sense?

[@danwyllie309]

@@deanfielding4411 The 4x more power was in reference to electric boilers not heat pumps. Gas boilers use minimal amount of electricity while electric boilers use only electricity to heat the water. Air source are efficient but huge and can be impractical to install in non new build homes. They may need larger piping systems and will most likely need larger radiators.

[@Candisa]

Heating inefficient homes is a non-argument: by the time hydrogen is feasible at large scale there shouldn't be any inefficient homes anymore. The inefficiency of producing hydrogen, the risks, the NOx... are far more important things to consider than keeping leaky houses that should have been knocked down or properly renovated already. I don't think air source heat pumps are the future, ground source makes a lot more sense since it has a much better efficiency when heat is actually needed the most and it doesn't produce much noise or visual disruption. Drilling wells for GSHPs is expensive and requires acces with machinery at the moment, but technology will find solutions and those prices will undoubtedly come down if there's a large enough market. Having one less grid of pipes to maintain, let alone upgrade, nation wide is also a great advantage of just getting rid of natural gas without replacing it with some other gas altogether.

[@glynstorer3269]

Electric boilers

[@jamesbulmer301]

hydrogen Leakage is the biggest problem there is no way metering is going to be allowed inside the house It will also have to be one continuous pipe from meter to appliance With some sort of gas monitoring system on it with the explosive mix been such a vast range Hydrogen is one of the smallest molecule in the periodic table. Natural gas is 3 times the size of Hydrogen. Every gas pipe would pour out the old gas system would never work it need to be pressured 4x the current pressure and its usually maintained by mechanical engineers with material science degrees Natural gas is 38.7 mj/m3 Hydrogen is 10.80 mj/m3 When adding 20% hydrogen it alters the calorific value It's going to make every boiler burn cooler Which is why there pushing for lower flow temps It's going to cost more to heat your home It's like adding water to petrol Hydrogen is stupid it will never happen at 100% Hydrogen at a power plant yes then transmission of power Electricity only way forward

[@jamesbulmer301]

If we upgraded every house incoming supply to have a step down transformer from 400v to 240v we can increase the voltage to 400v from sub station Which means you nearly double the amps transmitted which makes 400v 30kw electronic combi possible Also solves the electric car problem Only issue is the power generation which let face it, is the biggest problem

[@micahb6050]

Viscosity in μPa.s: Hydrogen H2 8.42 μPa.s Methane CH4 10.3 μPa.s So the difference in the Wobbe Index of Hydrogen from Natural Gas is not as much as you might think at first. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wobbe_index

[@fransbeever2300]

Rubbish