I Asked a Pro About Super Counter in Dragon Ball Sparking Zero

[@Voxelizes]

❤

[@-Alpeter]

Love your stuff.

[@iadxn8935]

learned a lot from you🙏

[@LowTierHero13]

I will super counter super counters consistently instead of even attempting vanish war there are high levels pc players they won’t go into vanish wars for the super counter war instead

[@Rejt_Rambles]

this game sucks, I proved it

[@therealthresh9031]

Super counter takes skill perception does not.

[@THEGrandMasterHawk]

I haven't watched the whole thing yet but I got to the part where you mentioned me etc. Thank you for the shout-out. I'll try to check back here frequently if anyone has any questions. And I wasn't subbed to you before, I've subbed now. Cheers. EDIT Request: BT3 runs 30fps.

[@LotusAsakura]

I greatly appreciate your insight on the game! Might have to get in contact with you personally soon ~

[@THEGrandMasterHawk]

@@LotusAsakura ✌💙 Always happy to help.

[@_Gorthax]

I have one! What's the macro you all use to get frame perfect counters and vanishes?

[@THEGrandMasterHawk]

@@_Gorthax None! : D

[@_Gorthax]

Oh and how do you feel about the siezure tactics where you stand still and hold block while spamming perception cancer that EVERYONE is doing but me?

[@tendaiball5598]

Another idea is changing the z-counter vanish type so if you vanish a super counter you end up behind but without the attack, ideally this specific vanish would place both people at plus 0 neutral, but the person who throws the super counter is back turned and therefore disadvantaged and can’t attack first. this gets rid of the need for vanish wars after a super counter, and super counter wars which i’ve been seeing in high level play.

[@luckycandy101]

Hey Lotus, thank you for actually being critical of the game in a healthy and respectful way. It's clear you want the game to improve.

[@LotusAsakura]

I think the game is a big step in the right direction for anime games but could be even better. I want to see this game and other titles thrive. Thank you for understanding that I only have the game’s best interest at heart.

[@Rejt_Rambles]

this game sucks, I proved it

[@silent_oh2577]

What’s funny about revenge counter. The player who uses it and gets it off can still get punished for using it after successfully landing the punch. Idk what it is but the opponent can just mash attack and keep hitting you after landing it.

[@LotusAsakura]

It's negative on hit and also reactable lol. It kind of sucks in most situations.

[@mostcreativename1]

I just want to say, I am loving the enthusiasm surrounding talking about aspects of the game. Giving criticism where its warranted, showing multiple perspectives, covering different topics in different vids. I feel this shows the passion for the game I wanted to see from the community and honestly from myself. I feel passionate for the game but I'm not expressing this way yet.

[@StormMage22]

Glad yall spoke on how easy it is to break free from throws while using perception. And it doesn’t help how simple it is to tech throws in this game. I literally could have someone mid throw animation & all they have to do is press a button to cancel it

[@thegoat4314]

I was playing perfect cell, and I was in the animation of throwing someone, and he somehow broke through it. I almost gave up on the game. Defense is just too powerful. You gotta use an op character, especially if you don't know how to super counter.

[@Rejt_Rambles]

this game sucks, I proved it

[@TrueReverse74]

The opponent can be throwing a kamehameha, not facing you, thinking about space monkeys and still have enough time to counter.

[@StormMage22]

@@TrueReverse74it’s honestly so crazy ik this isn’t an actual fighting game like tekken of SF but there should at least be kind of some timing to it

[@TrueReverse74]

@@StormMage22 It doesn't need to be an actual fighting game for that to not make sense. If bro is throwing a kamehameha and whiffs, you should be able to grab, wtf? if you're perceptioning, you should be able to be grabbed.

[@jet-set-stars]

In a game with such strong defense, it's kinda crazy that the revenge counter feels so underpowered if that makes sense? -costs two skill gauge (not too big an issue given how fast you get them in a match, but that is still an important resource) -fairly easy to react to with it's sound cue and slowdown, especially with modern having a one button perception. -doesn't work from behind making super counter or a possible z vanish your only way out of backshots. -MINUS ON HIT?? like the number of times I've seen people eat the counter and immediately just go back to comboing is insane. Bare minimum I'd want it to reset neutral at least, if not just grant a heavy smash stun.

[@ac04project]

Revenge counter shoul reset to neutral. SPeed type characters like 18 can punish by melee alone.

[@baka5835]

I think a good way to solve super counters is to just make it to where if you vanish the super counter it’s a regular vanish not a counter attack. Also give the person that did the super counter enough frames to turn around and do perception, block or sonic sway. That way it’s not guaranteed backshots. This would also end 90% of vanish wars

[@tendaiball5598]

@@baka5835 I literally dropped this exact same comment a few hours after you. i really the idea for the exact same reasons you mentioned lol. here’s my comment: Another idea is changing the z-counter vanish type so if you vanish a super counter you end up behind but without the attack, ideally this specific vanish would place both people at plus 0 neutral, but the person who throws the super counter is back turned and therefore disadvantaged and can’t attack first. this gets rid of the need for vanish wars after a super counter, and super counter wars which i’ve been seeing in high level play.

[@acedaboss3785]

i feel like yall are looking at the wrong problem. 99% of people can’t do super counters on accident let alone spam them. The most i did consecutively on purpose was 3; it’s really a skill diff. The real problem is the vanishing, that’s the only thing people are really consistently spamming. You could count on one hand how many times somebody super counters in a match. you get a vanish war in almost every exchange unless yall have no ki

[@LotusAsakura]

They go hand in hand. They both need adjustments in my opinion. We talk about it if you make it to the end of the video.

[@coryholmes8903]

It’s not a skill diff and you absolutely can do it consistently. I got to z rank in first week. And I could do it consistently by the time I got there. I stop playing but game breaker god can pretty much do it even when someone vanishes him. So yea it’s not a skill diff.

[@Rejt_Rambles]

this game sucks, I proved it

[@Beenthurl314]

I was boutta type same stuff I was boutta type most I’ve ever is 3 consecutively

[@LOLcheeseORZ]

​@@Rejt_RamblesIt sucks if you play it competitively. Luckily I don't lol, I already knew this game was gonna be unbalanced because the previous games were.

[@Tymier]

Very well made video! Much love my man 🙏🏽❤️ tips for super counters is to pay attention to the back of your player model and input when u see a fist or kick go through your body a tad bit , And ANTICIPATING their attacks!! Love y’all take care 💕

[@JahovasFitness]

25:08-25:38 I've been making sure to mention this anytime the game's mechanics get brought up so thanks for bringing this up. It's BAFFLING that people automatically act like taking issue with perception in it's current state is a "skill issue" when the most readily available "counters" to it just DO NOT WORK because mashing block during it is allowed and stops the counterplay. Not to mention you can mash perception to autocorrect yourself which prevents sidesteps from being a counter as well. Like who cares about what was said about "balance" when the game doesn't even follow it's own rules at times?

[@Rejt_Rambles]

this game sucks, I proved it

[@oddbranch9211]

Dude, lag on perception would be INSANE

[@ZaneDidIt]

A much BIGGER issue in my opinion is the fact that you can evasion WHILE blocking. I shouldn’t have to feel like I can’t push my combo on my turn because you can just evasion at any moment.

[@verbalthinker2466]

I met a super counter god last night and it changed my opinion on super counters. Before I thought it was great cause it was difficult but rewarding, But facing someone super good at it I can barely get a single hit off and end up in a stupid vanish war back to back.

[@erichthegraham]

Its hard to steelman the opposing argument when the argument is "stop observing the game flaws." A bunch of people seem to want to shame fighting gamers for wanting this game to be improved. When they said the game wasn't meant to be competitive, they meant not to expect character balance. They also said they plan on supporting both this game and Xenoverse, if people don't want the game to be competitively viable they can play Xenoverse. I'm convinced that when it comes to the points in this video, like the throw tech during perception, most of them are simply the truth, these problems need solutions, not people shaming us for acknowledging the game's flaws. If these things don't get addressed, the game will get old. I feel like the people who hate these types of conversations are the same people that misunderstand what we mean when we say the game isn't competitive viable. It's not that the game isn't competitive, its that there needs to be something at high level that keeps people playing, also this game lacks a lot of quality of life features of other fighting games. It feels like there's a contingent of people that don't want to see the game improve.

[@angelsibrian5085]

The nostalgia bt3 has on people is so skewed it has them saying the dumbest things. People heard the devs were making the game “unbalanced” and just assumed all the cheese strats were fine BUT what the devs meant is that some characters will deal more damage, be faster, more HP. I really hope Bandai fixed this game up it’s way too fun

[@Voxelizes]

well said

[@Lobexx]

The mistake is your not improving it

[@erichthegraham]

@@Lobexx ? Could you elaborate? This was a confusing statement.

[@doctordanny5342]

I think super counters should have their own skill meter right below the main skill meter. It should be set to 2 or 3. And have it regenerate the same way that the regular meter does. This would solve the spamming of super countering , while also offering a mechanic to be able to get out of a super long combo 👍🙌

[@VGGamess]

It still should not be spammed, but this isn’t a bad idea too 🤔

[@PervertedParrot94]

Do we really another recource to keep in mind? I think it would be better to merge together super counter and revenge counter. Delete super counter and buff revenge counter so it can be used at will (and way more consistent) but it costs a skillpoint. This would also cause people to think twice about using their skillpoints for afterimage and instant sparking

[@chosen7934]

this is actually a good idea

[@doctordanny5342]

@@chosen7934 thank you bro

[@doctordanny5342]

@@VGGamess thank you 🙏🙌🔥

[@kevanwilliams4110]

I think they should honestly scrap that input and make revenge counters be the way out of combos since revenge counter really serves no purpose, and it cost skill counter

[@helgarth]

This, all the way.

[@xBlackOutx21]

Yeah but you can still get countered when using it, they still can recover quick enough to react and in the end you lose 2 blast stocks and still come out negative. It's really not that good at all.

[@kevanwilliams4110]

@xBlackOutx21 100% but I feel like making revenge counter supplement and fill the role of what super counter is would make sense, at least to me. Getting out of combos should come at a cost but also be a more consistent mechanic rather than what super counter is. May not be a perfect solution but it's a start

[@doublecupdanny6053]

@@xBlackOutx21 Its like that with most combo breakers in traditional fighting games. In Guilty Gear if you are trying to predict your opponent will use a combo breaker, you will purposely drop your combo and risk losing your momentum to block/counter it. That's what we call depth

[@streamerboss4673]

huh? revenge counter doesnt have purpose? maybe you just dont know when to use it

[@christopherowens7182]

Really thought we was getting a perception rant tbh

[@Wicked.x]

If you have a problem with prescription ur doomed

[@LotusAsakura]

If you watch long enough we touch on it lol

[@YoItzTreyyy]

Perception is NOT bad

[@Isagi35]

@@YoItzTreyyythe spamming make it bad bc when u step to get behind n the defender spams block n perception the defender will turn which is bad af

[@myhatzulu]

​@@Isagi35so? thats on you to mix in grabs and ki blasts, someone spamming perception is begging for a grab or ki blast into comboes. Perception spam is extremely punishable when youre focused, it has proper counterplay. All due respect please dont show up in actual arguments on mechanics like super counters and just saying irrelevant stuff clearly exposing yourself as a mash square C rank player, youre just muddying the discussions. Keep it focused on actual important shit

[@mi4lh]

FINALLY someone says that super counter shouldn’t be vanish-able. it makes absolutely zero sense that super counter is the hardest defensive option to execute but the counter to that is the Vanish AKA the FREE-EST defense option in the game. That dude spit the entire video. finally some conversations around this game that aren’t in bad faith or foolishness.

[@Rejt_Rambles]

this game sucks, I proved it

[@Deathcardcodwaw]

But what if p1 is at low hp while performing a combo chain. All it takes is for p2 to spam SC to steal a win with no counter play besides ki blast

[@ac04project]

Super counters arnt that hard. My neighbor mashing can do it pretty well and he has no clue what hes doing.

[@kangaroojack89]

Should really talk about the sparking mode ki blast where you get locked in guard, as well as the dragon dash up and down spam that hasn't been patched

[@iateyourcookie9122]

In my opinion: Revenge counter & Super counter should just be 1 Counter & it should cost 1 Skill meter ( it helps keep your skill meter low, that way allot of folks cannot spam instant spark, after image strike ect ect Vanish war should be speed up after every vanish Perception should not be spammable Anyone that use instant spark or full power should have like "ki sickness" as a punish Besides that this game is just goated🔥🔥🔥

[@PervertedParrot94]

I’d like to see ki sickness after everytime someone goes into sparking mode. Not only when they use instant spark

[@t2farlop3zzz77]

Great topics and perspectives. As someone who didnt get a lot of time as a kid with the original series, these are great tips on my salty road to being a better player 😢😅 Being in the Cell Saga right now during my rewatch of DBZ, the vanish war is a lot of fun to me. Trying to get that super counter down and break my spam habit of executing it.

[@Judgement_Kazzy]

I still have issues landing super counters with how inconsistent the timing feels online. Like, I've seen the guides from people like Tymier and used their advice to get pretty consistent at landing super counters, even back to back... against the CPU. As soon as I try to take that practice into any online mode, it varies like crazy. I'll get some matches where it seems fine and I'm landing them about as well as I do offline, and others where I miss counter after counter and it just starts to feel like complete RNG.

[@sammitch524]

I feel like the netcode is a big part of this discussion. So much of this game is just timing checks, but the netcode is delay based, so from opponent to opponent, the timing can be inconsistent. If they make the timing of super counters harder it just exacerbates that problem.

[@BeyondAIR15]

That's why I say they need to fix the netcode first. Some games for me are terrible. I can't block, I can't vanish, can't even string a combo. I will legit hit light attack 3 times and my character just freezes after one input. Then the other player can just move like butter. It's consistently inconsistent.

[@azizmoya1186]

I agree this is the real problem I can’t complain to much on z counter when 1 game it helps me and the next I get destroyed from the back(no diddy) the not being able to vanish when you know you timed it right too I hope these devs aren’t like cods n actually care about us

[@antoniopope1261]

Here's my fix idea. I think its fine as is, but the cooldown window should start high and progresivly get lower the longer you go without taking a signifigant action. This way eventually it will be mashable but it also allows more room for combos to take place. It would also make it more skill expressive to time a super counter early in a combo. As for z counters, the opposite would work, where you window to vanish shrinks with each successful vanish, with the advantage given to the defensive player. So the first 2 z counters for them would be free. This would make it so a skillful player could still take a bigger lead on offense but more often the defending player would get a chance to breath.

[@TuskyBaby]

Yeah I felt this before even firing up online, and we're pretty much there. The defensive options in this game are just too powerful. If you're trying to win, why would you throw hands and be susceptible to z-counter, super counter, vanishes, explosive wave, wild sense, etc. when you can just... insta-sparking into unblockable? I still can have fun in ranked playing Hercule (for the memes) or Roshi (half for the memes), but its with the understanding that I will be at a disadvantage. Even then I've done pretty well for myself win ratio-wise because (among other things) super counter is just so good. I just let people hit me sometimes so I can keep charging Ki, because I'm consistently able to mash out a super-counter before their combos get going. I can only imagine how annoying it must feel, but I can get away with it, so I do it.

[@tylerpollock525]

I appreciate the discourse. I havent played since budokai and im loving this. But i do find that even the hight level cpu will break all your combos with this. I have been able to start hitting this counter faitly regularly and i havent played fighting games since budokai 3. It needs to replace the right stick click as a combo breaker, like take that out and put this in its place with the mechanic it has but it costs 1 skill instead of z counters 2. Im not good though so my pov doesnt carry much weight compared to yall. Everyone else iscrying and seething, so im happy to see a constructive conversation.

[@Jb-tt6to]

The way stocks build so fast when you’re getting whooped it should be tied to stocks

[@eeaagg12]

I'm in the opinion that super counter should be more high risk high reward. Change it to a 2-1 frame window not a 4 frame window. Super Counter should also have a very long cooldown to match said high risk high reward, shouldn't be able to mash whenever. If it were to take ki, that's already another ki waster. Dashes already take up a lot if you are trying to stop opponents from getting more ki. But vanishes should cost 1 bar just like the old BT3 which didn't make sense to me why the resource cost became so tiny.

[@LotusAsakura]

I feel you on that 100%. The risk for the defensive options in this game is so low lol.

[@imnotblindbutiloveblindfol8449]

It has a 12 frame cooldown if you whiff which is why it’s easier to do if you time it opposed to spamming it. I think it should at least cost ki.

[@eeaagg12]

@@imnotblindbutiloveblindfol8449 that's why i said make the cooldown longer so that mashing cannot happen, it should be a move that cost no ki for a high risk high reward. I ain't trying to lose a vanish war and get punished further by the opponent insta sparking or them having ki advantage

[@imnotblindbutiloveblindfol8449]

@Oooh yeah. That makes total sense. I fought a dude last night who literally spammed ki blasts, perception, and super counter and ran away until time was up lol. Game is WAY too defensive

[@dubzybc5457]

Give it a 30 second cooldown if you get outplayed you deserve to get benched from the controls and forced to use revenge counter

[@GTArajgaming]

I'm glad someone's pushing back against some of the more outlandish stuff like super counters. I can't get them off because opponents tend to turn me around then combo me to death, happens in ranked and the super level cpu does it too. They need to make it so when you get turned around, you can still vanish attacks, then change super counter AND change basic damage output so a dropped combo isn't dealing just shy of a full bar (and fix the super level cpu but that's another story)

[@NovaZayn]

Always like the way you execute your discussion videos, great points🙏🏾 coming from 2D FGs perspectives, I also wish they’d put more emphasis on risk/rewards and even RPS situations that are more balanced and less repetitive

[@Clayvillain17]

I believe in BT3 every character could do something like an explosive wave in exchange for a full health bar with the shoulder buttons. I would reduce the health loss to a 1/4 bar so it’s available at almost all times, and remove super counters entirely. It’s a guaranteed reset to neutral and you’re not forced to sacrifice your skill gauge, but it makes it so if you’re spamming it you’re gonna be at a massive health disadvantage

[@xeloc402]

Completely forgot about this mechanic

[@AdventVFX]

@@Clayvillain17 it is if you're getting combo'd past 20 hits I believe as you take less health when doing the combo breaker vs under 20 hits and it takes a lot more, I really like the mechanic in theory but I never use it cause its against cpus mostly which don't do long combo strings like an actual player would do.

[@BanchoGato]

I mean bt3 also had super counters. I think revenge counters should be reworked so they're not so exploitable and cheaper. Super counter doesn't need to be removed, it's a good level of skill echeck.

[@Clayvillain17]

@ as it stands it’s not a skill check at all

[@UnifiedEntity]

​@@BanchoGato It was in bt3, but I think that requires more precision. The game was more responsive than Sparking Zero so it depended more on your timing. I say take revenge counters out though.

[@Spawnamvs]

I said it before, but I think Super Counter should cost half a bar, but remain the same. I feel it would make managing ki more important and make going for ki break more relevant imo Edit: didnt know this was already touched on in the video around the 7:50 mark and vanish wars are uninteresting after the first 2 times so speeding them up would make it very hype

[@Kabyk]

There's an entire subsystem mechanic that not even top players remember or know it exists = rush finishers. this is because no attack string ever goes long enough to use them. SC needs to be gutted, BUT, as noted, the whole rush chain system would also have to be changed/nerfed to accomodate (it's so strong because SC exists).

[@EternalDahaka]

Rush finishers as in Dragon Tornado and Heavy Crush? They aren't used by better players(and weren't in BT2/3) because just resetting rushes are safer, more practical for long combos, and they're too predictable so they're easily vanished. Raging Blast 2 had a much more free-form system that allowed more mix-ups. SZ could have taken that system, added branching finishers to the current set that could loop back to rushes, or made some attacks within the finishers unvanishable to make them more viable.

[@Kabyk]

@@EternalDahaka i have no proof to argue the actual experience of playing with them (since as we agree i've never seen them used in human vs human), but just the pure math on how many branches - different for every single char and form - would argue against them being too predictable. especially since they have different timings and lengths. but i will cede i've only looked at them in training mode.

[@kixx6]

REALLY wanna ask, with the current cheese strats in the game (e,g; sparking into ki-blast spam), how do you feel about unblockables in the game atm?

[@mrct592]

I think Vanish Wars turning into any other type of clash after 5-6 vanishes would be pretty cool. Like the BT4 mod does. After 6 vanishes (3 each from both players), you transition into a grab clash, guard clash, or rush clash at random.

[@Abyscerate]

I say, give us more options so we aren’t locked into a vanishing war. For example, trunks and tapion have that window where they could dash out of it, why not just make that something all characters can do, that cost some sort of resource? I also think that revenge counters are the most useless counters in the game. You spend 2 meters to break the combo, just for your opponent to side step, vanish, keep mashing attack, do a super/ultimate, for free basically. They gotta change that so it’s actually WORTH spending 2 meters/spending 2 meters to catch their revenge counters. W video Lotus, keep up the good work with the sparking zero content 🙏🏾

[@justinpipe1564]

I like that tape and trunks have they side step window… make characters feel more unique

[@TheMrCodydog]

Tymier would be such a good addition to this series. the most i’ve learned in this game has been from him and i know he is very adamant on super counter being nerfed to a timing based input as well

[@Phantazmay]

I actually love that we have so many defensive options in this game. My only problem is how free Super Counter is right now. I think the proposal Vox gave is an excellent way to deal with it. Either make SC a combo breaker reset or make vanish cost 1 ki bar and SC half a bar. Grand Hawk Master's idea is nice too.

[@Curiosity-games]

i love the counter play in this game and i love the fact that theres so many way to dodge, block, or counter attacks because that just feels like dragon ball to me character in dragon ball are meant to be like faster than light and having so many ways to not get hit captures the idea of being the fastest thing alive which is epic to me

[@triple_r_va]

There was a get off me mechanic in BT3, and it used health as the resource. This combined with BT3 super counter was perfect. SC needs the tweak suggested here. Great vid!

[@UnifiedEntity]

OH YEAH I remember that!!!! It was like an animation as if they were doing a super explosive wave but it was a block of sorts that took.... Shit a considerable amount of HP.

[@triple_r_va]

@UnifiedEntity Honestly if this was added, it would be sick as it would at least make people think a bit more.

[@UnifiedEntity]

@@triple_r_va Honestly it needs to follow suit what bt3 to actually be and feel like a sequel. The following: - Z-vanish should cost 1 full bar of ki. - Super counter Window should be like bt3 being harder to execute. And for online only, have it cost 1 bar of Ki as well. - With the Z vanish used in a tug of war, the last use of ki shouldn't even trigger the last hit. Just vanish and done. - Add in the mechanic we talked about. - Take out revenge

[@triple_r_va]

@UnifiedEntity Interesting take. Personally I like super counter being harder to execute. I feel like it shouldn't cost ki due to the the bt3 mechanic where it basically had a cool down after use, even if it's online. Remember if there button is already extremely hard to execute... why should it penalise? I think it should reset neutral, as stated in the Lotus Asakura video. Revenge counter should stay as it IMO it isn't utilised well by players sometimes (literally had a chat with a player that didn't know revenge counter works against ki blasts, so you can stop spam). Online only stuff will make things difficult for players, unless ore explanation is built in. Everything else though about what you stated? I 100% agree with.

[@UnifiedEntity]

@@triple_r_va only reason why I said ki, is because the people online will bitch about it. They are the main ones all about "balance" without understanding the game and for the casual experience isn't ruined by it. As I say that, maybe add that restriction in ranked. But that's my opinion on that.

[@justcallmesage2279]

If any changes were to be made after hearing the entire video I’d agree with taking out super counters and buffing revenge counter to work even when back turned. You could maybe make revenge counters, while getting punched in the face cost 1 Skill Count while taking backshots should cost 2 Skill Count. For vanish wars, decreasing the window for the vanish after each use, or making it cost more Ki after each use would work. If you were to do an Impact Clash it could work, but only if you made the animation result in a hard reset to neutral (I personally would like to see one like how they did in Budokai 3 if defense wins on the 2 round of the Dragon Rush). Edit: what if there was a fatigue gauge that functions like it did on Budokai 3? The more you vanish, take damage, sonic sway, perception, you gain fatigue. If this fatigue gauge fills, your character is burnt out, needing time to recover (recovery time decreasing with a rapid button input). The main ways to decrease your fatigue gauge mid fight would be either to transform, utilize a buff skill, or begin/maintain offense.

[@esincorporated6123]

I think another thing that people gloss over is lag. The lag in this game can be downright unplayable. I personally think that the super counter should cost something, but depending on the lag, the window to perform should be widened in my opinion the compensate.

[@UnifiedEntity]

In no way should a Super counter not be vanishable. To me, Like Tenkaichi 3 Vanishes should take an ENTIRE bar of ki, which will force mindful ki management. Only then should Super counter or anything at that point be "non vanishable". Cause Sparking Zero vanishing takes barely any ki which even prolonged long ass tug of wars. The last vanish on the last amount of ki should not trigger the last hit too. As far as Super counters, make that shit cost Ki ( 1 bar) online only, and make it like bt3 as far as frames. So that way the offline experience doing story or fighting cpus isnt hambered by this competitive approach. P.S: This is why I found it odd when people like AfroSenju are saying "oh it plays like bt3".....Nah... No it doesn't

[@IamSammich]

I think super counter should just return to neutral. Kinda like when you direction block a heavy. And accounted should have the option to attack or not like when you teleport mid combo, then I think it’d be fine

[@Arunnejiro]

I hate I didn't come out with my video first. I noticed this day 2 of playing the game. I think most people don't believe that people are going to git gud at super counters. Its like the dark souls parry issue. If you git gud at parrying, it trivializes many enemies. The game has only been out for around a month or less, the more people play, the more people there are going to be that are godlike at super counters. At that point, it is impossible to use any rush attack against them. On one hand, unlike 2d fighters where without that one combo breaker move, you get tapped and have to put the controller down because there's nothing to do, I do like the multiple defensive options, but vanish and supercounter are too strong with them being the only options to each other. Personally i would like to see the ability to at bare minimum, choose not to follow behind them with the hit attack, so one can vanish away somewhere instead of the follow up hit. Thats bare minimum. Two super counters either need a higher resource or some way to mix it, or some attacks like charged attacsk have higher priority so you can't just btfo the melee part of the game.

[@legendarybrando348]

Imo this is the best thing to do. Have vanishes get faster after the 3rd or 4th vanish. Have super counters be a little harder to pull off and not spamable. Have revenge counters be usable any direction and unvanishable. Having super counters unvanishable is also good and having vanish take 1 bar and super counter take half a bar is good.

[@smart7927]

Vanish wars, Super Countering, and Perception spam pretty much sums up the entirety of this games “high level” defensive gameplay. I feel like overall the game could’ve become more balanced if they simply made a work around with super counters where you can only do them as a better revenge counter, instead of it being a free get off me move, it should cost you more then 2 skill points to be able to break a combo. Vanish wars could be fixed to become clashes after 5 consecutive counter vanishes. And honestly, Perception isn’t too hard to pull off as a defensive option, considering all you have to do to hit a sonic sway or instant counter is just holding circle, it kinda just makes it an easy out for combos that aren’t full of stuns. I think they should update certain frames on combo finishers, as well as adding a input window to make the skill ceiling higher allowing for players to have to actually use perception as a parry and not just a (you can’t hit me without KI blast or Smash attacks) button, and if you get caught with a perception hit, you should have the option to break the counter without having to use Super or Revenge counters.

[@EternalDahaka]

The changes I'd like to see: * Super Counter can't be mashable. Cooldown should be a full second or even 2. * Increase Z-Counter vanish to a full block of ki. * Revenge counters should work from the back. They basically broke aspects that worked fine in BT3. Making super counters actually require timing would limit their use and how many vanish wars trigger. Vanish wars would be much shorter using full blocks of ki. I'm against having Super Counters require ki because if you're low enough on ki you simply lose. The interesting part about vanish wars is using SCs can give you back the ki advantage. I'm open to them speeding up attacks in the vanish wars as it goes longer, shortening the vanish window, or giving characters different speeds for directional attacks they can use to trip each other's timings. Any of those should be added if they want to keep the ki cost as it is currently. I'm also against using ki or skill points for it because of the design of the system. It could end up as Storm where being negative on substitutes defaults to safe ranged play. The revenge counter was supposed to be the replacement for the emergency blaster wave. It's silly the RC doesn't work from the back, because Sparking!/Max Power backshots are what would have been the main use for it.

[@ZaneDidIt]

Strongly disagree. If it used ki then what happens when you run out of key? Unlimited backshots while they’re in sparking cause you super countered a few times and now dry on ki? These are core mechanics and I’m gonna say it, I think the devs know better on this one. Respectfully

[@Deathcardcodwaw]

If the devs knew better, it wouldn't be a recurring topic.

[@venomloki175]

This game is aimed towards all dragonball fans, majority of them are casual fighting game players. You have revenge counter, perception and super counter. All have different cost: RC 2 blast stocks, Perception ki (needs to be more ki🤷🏾‍♂️) & super counter timing. I do think it needs a punish but not a additional cost. Revenge counter is for face to face combo breaker, perception is for face to face stagger breaker then the only backshot breaker is super counter.

[@MrPian0Mann]

Super count needs a charge based cooldown system IMO. Start game with 3 super counters, then as you use them they recharge over 20-30 seconds. That way it's still there, but it's not spammable.

[@xLWxPhantom]

I just believe revenge counter should be what super counter is like lotus says, its 2 mechanics that do basically the exact same thing, one is easier because you dont have to time it therefore requires skill gauge, and the other can be done whenever. So if youre good enough you literally only need option 2 which invalidates the other. I wouldnt mind if somehow they made it to where it used only 1 skill gauge if its a frontal use and 2 if its for backshot use if super counter were to be removed.

[@BlackEyedJester]

I genuinely think that either the speed at which you generate blast stocks (skill points) should be halved OR the cost of all skills should be doubled. I personally lean towards the cost of all skills being doubled would be better specifically because things like Super Perception do cost 1 skill point, plus mechanics like Revenge Counter already take 2 and it's clear they want players to use that to break out of combos, Super Counter should definitely be adjusted so it's not possible to just spam the input and get it eventually but I do think that the blast stocks are the REAL issue putting pressure on the Counter System.

[@oldsoulbiz3526]

Guys, Super Counters should cost 1 skill point, not ki. Right now Skill points are being hoarded for character specific skills. There's literally no decision making or risk/reward when it comes to skill point management. For crying out loud how does no one see this???

[@chrisp4643]

Yea especially when skill points are gained pretty fast during vanish wars, I’d actually argue super counter should takes 2 skill points 1 might not be enough & it could help with ppl spamming insta sparks if they’re sacrificing their skill points to pull off a super counter

[@NinthCircleGaming]

I like the idea but, half a bar would be a perfect cost. One is way too high for situations like Sparking auto combo.

[@animeamvs7863]

this conversation is so frustrating bc ppl think you're just complaining about the game, when in reality you're pointing out its flaws and just want the game to be the best version of itself that it can be. Unbalanced characters are NOT the same as unbalanced/broken mechanics. i'd even like to add on that i think ki blast damage should be reduced bc there's no way reason i can do an entire full combo on you and all you have to do is spam ki blasts on me to get me to the same amount of hp or less. the game is frustrating and disappointing BECAUSE it has so much untapped potential to truly be the best dragon ball game of all time. but majority of the community just wants to keep their boring broken playstyles bc it's the only way they'll actually be able to compete. it's sad how they don't want the game to grow

[@JahovasFitness]

This exactly. You deadass cannot have any constructive criticism for the game because a bunch of brainrotted mouth breathing NPCs will ramble off the same nonsense about something being a skill issue or how some article talked about how "balance" isn't a focus and how that means the game shouldn't be improved. Nuance is dead and these idiots continue to kill it.

[@LotusAsakura]

Thank you so much for understanding lol

[@arpadszabo661]

Maybe if you’d stop believing that revenge counter is useless because your favorite youtuber said so, you wouldn’t have issues with ki blast spammers.

[@stefanjuarez6565]

This comment just screams “skill issue”

[@chosen7934]

@@arpadszabo661how does those 2 even correlate? u counter ki blasts by spamming r1. does revenge counter counter ki blasts?

[@hunterst6321]

Start by making Revenge Counter better, it costs resources afterall.

[@AMDGBananaBen]

I really like the idea of super counter resetting to neutral. Do that and give it a small cost (half a bar/1 bar) in additio nto adjusting the cost of ki in vanish wars. These mechanics are cool the first time you pull them off, then become dry and boring so I think the many suggestions here would help!

[@RayDealGaming]

I’m more upset with these input issues and my character freezing when tagged in and/or after super animation (after it hits)

[@TheLousyGamer01]

26:01 I’ve been saying recently to myself that it feels like I’ll be fighting the game before I am able to fight my opponent weather that’s the any game not registering my commands or not allowing me to do things when I have the ki and skill point to pull off or the game unlocking off my opponent in the middle of battle or after doing a combo with a super at the end, shit I’ll be staring dead at my enemy and I’m a sitting duck bc the game won’t lock on then I’m stuck swinging at Casper until I’ve been put in a combo or hit. Rest of this is gonna be long so warning ahead lol. Thought the video was great and talked about issues or small changes that could be implemented to change the pacing or flow of the game to add more variety than just doing the same set ups or defense plays. Also learned a few tips that I gotta start working on/ implementing more. I will say (this can definitely be a skill issue) but I don’t really use the super counters that much bc my timing is not the best for them but even if I spam the command I get like 2 a match. However, a problem I was running into has been dealing with perception spam by my buddy ( idk if others do this or if it changes much) I know there’s a small window to get your gaurd out or dodge the perception hit or can counter the immediate follow up with your own or revenge counter but the grab break it does is dumb and the fact you can hold perception, let go to side step/face your opponent and hold person again, To always have it ready is a bit odd. Also on standard controls you can hold R1 and O at the same time (or very close to the same time) and the game will do a block to perception, this makes sonic sway easier or be able to have more consistency, plus being able to take 1 or 2 hits of your start up combo to then get perception countered. Doing this will also slap a ki blast away, look like you can go in for a hit but then the opponent will go right into the perception stance to do the counter. This is very long winded but good video overall, lots I need to improve on but also things the game could tweak.

[@eclipse4215]

My personal opinion as a Z-Rank would be make super-counter non-vanish able, make it cost 25% of one skill bar, make it a 3 frame input, make it non-spam able. This should really fix any complaints people have about the mechanic while also circumventing heals, afterimage strikes, and stalling to a certain extent as if a player is super countering alot they will fill skill bar quicker. Regarding Vanish wars though I agree there very boring I think a simple correction would be the input getting smaller per vanish thus making it harder as vanish's prolong.

[@NigelSirrah]

I also think CLANKING (where you get the ripple animation) can be a bit weird and could be adjusted for charged attacks. I do a lot of charged attacks, and I noticed that if a normal square press collides with a full charged smash, it clanks and you get that ripple animation, then I’m in more lag from the smash and they can keep mashing square or vanish at anytime behind you. Anyone else notice this???! Charged melee should beat normal melee no, or at least put both players into the mini game? Maybe it’s just me

[@mobdafob3213]

Hey Lotus, just wanted to say I loved the video and this discussion was awesome and covered pretty much everything I've thought myself about how ridiculous the defense is in this game specifically super counter in this case. I also wanted to throw in that imo the community could potentially hurt the game in terms of these mechanics being tweeked due to so many people still having those rose tinted glasses on cause Sparking Zero is the game we've waited for, for so long and those same people refuse to accept and admit the game clearly has problems

[@CJStrickland]

I agree somewhat mostly what you are saying about this topic. I'm 46. I was playing DragonBall T/B when I was an adult. The story counter was harder to do. I think it's because of the culture of gaming with the culture of the internet that the younger generations want the "easy way" to win. So you guys started counting frames. Taking the "guess" work out of the fights. That being said. It should be increased to 20 frames, so it's not as likely. However, I definitely can't have people doing long combos you can't break or get away from

[@josephdelvin7771]

I took a few days off from sparking zero, got back on now everyone is super countering.. I’m like dam. Y’all never stopped playing?! Or am I just trash?! 😭

[@UnifiedEntity]

The answer is they either were veteran Tenkaichi players or they just ran to KZbin

[@chosendisciples5322]

Can we get an episode about perception and things yall would do to make that better? I think perception is good but is still a bit strong. It takes a lot of the guessing out of mix ups. -I love the ideas about super counter!

[@longhairedcello4109]

What if they made it so the first vanish costs ki, but any consecutive vanish is free? That way vanish wars could go on until one player messes up. I think vanish wars are one of the most fun parts of the game. One thing I don't like, and which I fear will cause the game to change for the worse, is the attitude and complaints coming from pros/high level players. The developers specifically said that fighterz was for highly skilled pro level play, kakarot was for the story experience, and sparking zero is for accurately representing the action of the show. This game is not meant to be played in the way yall are trying to play it. Just have fun with the virtual action figures they've made for us and stop complaining about the rules of the game that you decided to play

[@XZeroDragoonX]

Yeah I definitely feel like the DP battles go on for so long. Not just because the vanish wars and the Super Counters, but also because super attacks (not Sparking Ultimates) lose their place in fights when you get better at the game. You can't launch someone and then super right after because they'll vanish it mid-launch animation and you've wasted 3+ Ki bars on an attack that missed (even in this video, the only supers that hit were because the target was caught in a rare animation lock--trying to end or set up a combo to hit one just doesn't work). Any one of these mechanics isn't an issue on its own I don't think, but when you have ALL of these mechanics punishing/negating combos and supers, in addition to heal switching, in addition to healing skills... how tf is anyone supposed to die in this game? Either spam unblockables or get un/lucky with SC spam rng. It's ridiculous.

[@helgarth]

Making SC more accessible and counting ressources is EXACTLY what revenge counters should do! It's the perfect combo breaker. Make it usable from behind, (you still have the no guard and damage advantage from behind) and make the damage scalling higher, rhe skill count generation slower and BOOM you have solved the SC issue AND the instant sparking issue ti some extent at the same time. Revenge counter having it's niche place and uses doesn't mean we need another counter...

[@caravaneerkhed]

How I think I would change super counter would be you can do it out of a z counter, or if you can recover from being tossed it’s doable, and on initial hits you can do it, but if you are being hit I think you deserve to be punished, and we have revenge counters to combo break already. I also think the idea of z counters being successful like 4 times in a row should return both players to neutral and maybe make the window tighter or make the timing harder between each successful z counter.

[@angelsibrian5085]

Make super counter take resources, vanish wars turn into vanish clashes, and perception having some sort of cooldown/hurtbox fix(why does it go off from the side & back?), make instant sparking 4/5 SP, don’t let skill points gain so much

[@breakthecode4634]

Honestly the biggest issue with vanishes and super counters is the game forcing the follow up afterward you guys touched on this, Theres no mixup potential from it. Make it to where you can regular vanish or counter vanish by pressing square after in a timed window. Currently the only characters that can ignore this mechanic are tapion and the base trunks. The saiyan versions can break counter vanish offs but thats different.

[@remylebeau34]

I might be remembering this wrong but the bt3 revenge counter (it wasn't the same thing but it was the combo escape where you pressed L1 twice) used to work if you got hit from behind. If anyone knows if that's not how it was let me know but I was wondering what people think about this as an idea in this game. Would it be better, would it be an alternative to being able to mash super counter during rush combos, would it just be pointless since it can be countered with perception? I personally think super counter spamming during rush attacks is kinda bad since there's no cost or risk and I wouldn't mind if you could only super counter moves that you could vanish like heavy attacks, obviously not including super attacks.

[@VGGamess]

The best thing would be either what he said at 12:15 or to bring back the cooldown if you fail to hit the counter window.

[@thatperson9750]

Happy Halloween 🎃

[@Chilick]

As someone that doesn’t make content and barely plays ranked, I don’t have a place in this debate since ppl like me play the game and see the anime as they play. I don’t see SZ as a “fighting game “ it’s a DBZ simulator with great gameplay and I’m happy just for that

[@BathwaterBender]

I think people mention that you want infinite combos because if you remove a difficult, but free cost, counter, than yes, *technically* that would be the only way to make an infinite combos chain ToD whatever, possible. Not that it's a good argument, but I don't think adding cost is the answer, maybe some difficulty curve like Vox mentioned.

[@jonathanfr9809]

1:51 timyer is realy good too

[@neighbor_fgc]

Agree....id say have it cost something. Like attach it to the skill meter. That way it gives players a choice. Use resources for afterimage and sparking..or use for combo breaker. Have it cost 3 skill bars.

[@lycanshithrope6956]

Vanish wars need an option for you to vanish but make the choice to not attack instead of auto attack. I don't think super counter is hard I'm just not sure what I need to do in order to get it. I also need to practice it but is it before I get imhit or when I get hit?

[@Dabedidabe]

Revenge counter needs to cost 1 skill point and actually break you out of a combo, super counter needs to be revenge counter for back shots and cost 2 skill points. Both should not be vanishable and create more distance to return to neutral. This way it becomes more about resource management and less about mashing. Also vanishes should only move you behind the enemy until your next input.

[@davidburke4101]

I think that super counter should cost 2 ki while in hitstun but is free otherwise OR super counter remains free but if you're being hit from behind it is only accessible after the 5th rush hit (the one that pushes you back and you can step in to continue, or do the rush finisher.)

[@soultype777]

Vanish wars should increase in speed and z counters should cost something not free, maybe keep the windows the same because you can practice it and get better. Revenge counter is awesome for cheeses especially continuous ki blasts but the cost being 2 is risky. Revenge counter should be buffed a lil especially for 2 skills

[@abellakentrell56]

I think it should be spammable like it is now, but cost half a skill point. That way you can’t super counter into senzu or sparking. Also, make it such that the opponent can’t counter vanish with an attack. They just vanish behind you. I also think super perception on a blast or rush attack should only cost one skill count. At two, it’s useless. Revenge counter should only cost one skill count. Countering a revenge counter should be free. Grabs should do double or triple the current damage to counter perception spam. Perception should cost a quarter skill count every time you activate it. These changes would go a loonng way.

[@renardbennett75]

The simple solution is to remove sc, buff rc, and give the vanishing player an option to reset to neutral, thus completely eliminating all possibility for an extended vanishing war. This game’s fundamental problem is that one player interaction often completely breaks the natural combat loop for the rest of the fight for no reason. There’s just too many versions of events where you just get forced to stop playing the game for an extended period of time. It’s not even about competitive balance at this point, it’s about having an actually stable combat system for multiplayer in general. I legit don’t care about character balance (for the most part…), I just want the combat to actually work as intended instead of devolving into a mindless mini game 99% of the time.

[@tayhonorable7421]

Speak to @Alwuhu - he's really good at the game and also explains what works and what doesn't in very simple terms with nice gameplay, and doesn't rely on cheese characters or moves to win. Personally, I think if super counters costed a fixed amount of ki/skill (half a skill point?) that would force people to think about using them, and also reduce spam. I also think sometimes, there's just too much defense in this game. It feels like getting ten full hits on an opponent above B5 rank is ******* IMPOSSIBLE.

[@nachoconqueso3000]

I think super counter should not just have an auto launching attack with it, in addition to that it should have a tighter windown of excecution and be less forgiving, the game runs on 60fps, so it should be about 30-40 frames of cooldown where if u press super counter again the cooldown resets. 4 frames of grace to input a ressourceless combo breaker is a big amount but on a 60 fps game its not much, still i think reducing the windown by 1 or 2 frames is fair. Lastly back to my first point, super counter should just steal the turn for whoever did the super counter, but having an automatic attack follow up that is easily vanishable sucks because its always super counter into vanish war. The automatic hit should be removed or at least have the option to not go through with it

[@chrisp4643]

Super counter should take skill points (maybe 2), it forces the players to manage their skill point counter & could help from ppl spamming things like insta sparks. I think vanish wars should take up more ki to lessen the duration, this would also lessen how much skill points you get from vanish wars & if they make insta sparks take 4 points instead of 3 it would make ppl have to work for it instead of cheesing the ability. This would make the game a bit more fair & skill based rather than cheese based imo

[@Yeshayshu]

Ranting about this is crazy 😂😂

[@Lobexx]

Fr

[@swifti1001]

It's an uninstallable offence. People who suck at defense get infinite get out of jail free cards and it starts a vanish war which literally everyone hates.

[@AscheAbyss]

Yeah nah, I share the exact same sentiments and logic as Dom. Those changes he proposed are fire. Super counter needs to cost something, but it can't in any way cost more or the same at vanishes unless it resets neutral or wins the interaction, preferably reset neutral

[@vaper8824]

Mortal Kombat 11 Had a similar Problem with Flawless Blocking. 90% of players couldn’t do it. But if you can. You could Steal your turn back while - on block or if you knew the Combo Gaps. you got a full combo after.

[@00_Wrld]

Has anyone noticed the triangle up combo leaves you stunned, you cannot recover

[@kursna]

Okay I realize the argument is this: make super counter a 1 frame input on a buffer(or resource), that will make it more balanced. Seems pretty fair ngl

[@veeg3959]

To many other important problems.

[@LotusAsakura]

I agree but what problems in specific are you referring to?

[@veeg3959]

@LotusAsakura doesn't matter atp, I'm sure the problems will be fixed in do time. And when they do I hope all y'all ready to defend your rank. Cuz I'm coming for the 👑

[@Mvp8243]

​@LotusAsakura perception, z vanish wars, revenge counter being so garbage, countering the revenge counter using 2 bars & then they can revenge counter the counter & use up all your stocks for countering them. Essentially getting punished for being good. Compared to super counter which you can't pull off consistently.

[@Noahlowery1]

I try to time the super counter every time I never mash it and I think it’s a pride thing. But some nights I can hit what feels like every counter I go for, but other nights I can’t get a single one and I get pieced tf up and while it is frustrating at times it adds a lot of variety to my games which is fun

[@swifti1001]

It's not too strong. The timing is so lenient people don't even bother to vanish. They literally just mash super counter and it has a 100% success rate eventually during a combo

[@jeremyjohnson9609]

Maybe I'm too low level in ranked but super counter seems fine to me. In fact, I'd make it easier to pull off but there's needs to be a way to counter super counters. Perception and vanishing seem like more of an issue to me. Perception is just too easy to pull off. Vanishing would be cooler if in vanish wars, the timing gets harder and harder the further you get into a vanish war. I also despise that super counters are the only way to get out of back shots. I'd add another vanish type defense that works like substitutions in the naruto storm games. I.e. a limited amount of substitutions that refill slowly over time.

[@matthewatwood97]

Because the frame window is actually so small to do a super counter, I say don’t change it. I’m currently sitting at A5 in singles and I can get them off sometimes, but not all the time. If you can get them off consistently well then you just deserve to get them off in my opinion.

[@thronosstudios]

Oh my goodness, if the super counter is such a massive problem, all they need to add is some kind of cooldown to it. It's already hard enough to perform it frame-perfect, but I don't think there is an issue being able to vanish out of it since this game is supposed to make you feel like you're in a freaking Dragon Ball episode. The sooner people understand that, the sooner we can just get past the complaints about the game's mechanics when it was made with the purpose of being the ultimate dragon ball fight simulator. It's supposed to make you feel powerful like the characters because it's all about the experience, not the competitive gaming aspect

[@tevinperry1853]

A change in defensive skill would work like wild sense being able to be activated on hit