I Failed Orals: Let's Be Honest about the PhD Process

[@eamonnkeogh]

I failed my Ph D qualification exams, TWICE! I had to get special permission to take it for the third time. I am now Distinguished Professor of Computer Science at UCR.

[@schmetterling4477]

In my experience it's much more simple than that. If they want to let you pass, they let you pass. If they want to fail you, then you will fail. I was lucky twice that they would let me pass even though I didn't perform brilliantly while students who were much better than me failed. Why? Because I knew my limitations and I was willing to admit to them, while those other students were trying to cover them up. There is a human component to these exams. If you are trying hard not to be an *ss, then most examiners won't treat you like one.

[@scubagib6438]

I agree. In my experience the point of the exercise is to test your limitations, have you admit them, and now that you have acknowledged a limit, seeing how you would go about finding the answer. I don't think those that fail did so because they were necessarily an ass, but many do fail for being unwilling to acknowledge their limits/ trying to cover them up. The best advice I have is don't be afraid to say you don't know. But don't just answer a question with "I don't know." Say "I don't know, but I think it could be this" and then go about describing how you'd try to investigate the answer. The whole exercise in science is an exploration of the unknown. Nobody experiments on what they know what would be the point in that. You have to acknowledge what you don't know and then be able to identify resources you could use to get there and design the killer experiment to answer that question.

[@schmetterling4477]

​@@scubagib6438 I think that's about right. Not knowing is human, but not even trying is very undesirable and lying is unforgivable in science. People take very unkindly to that kind of behavior in exams. The daily work of a PhD is really all about tenacity. A PhD is a mountain climbing expedition that takes three to five years to complete, sometimes longer. There are days when the mountain will win, and that is OK. There is a next day and a next and those who can come back and try again usually get to a high enough top to enjoy a new view. I have to admit that I went into my PhD with very low expectations for myself and when I hit the hard wall after approx. two years and it seemed almost hopeless to continue, I was surprised that I made the right choices almost intuitively and finishing became mostly a seven day a week exercise in hard, goal oriented work. It completely changed the way how I would approach a problem from then on. Just knowing that there was a way, even if it wasn't obvious, yet, that's the recipe for professional success. That is among the most important things they are trying to teach you. And even if they don't, I learned it anyway.

[@bahaa978]

Thank you for your helpful comment. I heard my friend saying the same. Do not try to prove you are an intelligent student who knows everything. That was surprising

[@DSScully]

@ScubaGib they don't even care about that. It's a measure of how much they feel you look like them. It is a measure to uphold very ingrained discriminatory practices and puts disadvantaged people (women, minorities, disability, and other underprivileged and underserved communities) at more of a risk for being excluded. It is a hazing ritual to keep and maintain inaccessibility for higher education.

[@allenbrady8083]

Thank you for this comment.

[@jmguevarajordan]

Oral examination is a dangerous game. You are right that it is not a matter of studying or reading or being smart, it is matter of performance and ....good luck. I saw many good students failing those exams, and the effects on them are terrible. In general people who failed those exams do one of three things: 1) they take it again, 2) they get a second masters degree or 3) they go to another school where exams are easier because after all they want to be a researcher and not an expert in taking 'stupid' exams. I wish you good luck with your youtube channel, it is like an oral or qualifying exam!!!

[@mohamedanisferchichi2071]

I am so GLAAAAD I PASSED MY ORAL EXAMINATION AND MY DOCTORAL DISSERTATION UNANIMOUSLY. SO PROUD

[@madamepsychosix]

You have no idea how much this helps! I'm doing my Ph.D. at Columbia and am STRUGGLING in my orals meetings. I feel like I can't answer so many of the questions, and everyone telling me that I'll pass makes me feel even dumber! None of the info sessions and faculty meetings I've been through have described the performative nature of the exam as well as you have. I feel less crazy now!

[@nicolebarnes3029]

Thank you for your honesty and courage in sharing this story! I honor you. This is so useful for current grad students to hear, but it is also very useful for me now that I am an advisor of PhD students. Thank you!

[@nadazahra1972]

Agree! 08:30 people always told me "it's not as scary as people make up to be" but on the other hands some people failed their orals, my friend even had to re do her paper. I'm currrently writing mine and i am soooo scared. Thank u for sharing!

[@aayushiarya5485]

I Just failed my oral. It feels awful. The thing is that these type of exams are really unpredictable and it totally depends on your examiner if they are good people they will listen to you. If they are bad they don't care what happens to you. I think the oral was one of the worst experiences in my research career.

[@reverendayodeleolaniyi724]

Hmmmmm... good piece

[@oldbabyseasoning]

How are you doing now?

[@ashwinikumar1946]

Most needed rn. such an honest video. I failed my first attempt at QE and had panic and postponed my next and last chance to 1.5 yrs. I feel so damn scared to ruin my last chance if I did wrong then I'd be kicked out of my dept. already facing a lot of gossip and humiliation felt so ashamed to go to school and moved faraway n to somewhere south of Taiwan and hide myself. then I gain some confidence and going to give my last attempt sooner. this video helps me a lot with what to deliver and how to do so,. hopefully, I could get through this.

[@Aritul]

8:16 I laughed when you called BS on the "it's just a conversation" line. I don't know how many times my advisor told me that.

[@aungseethapo9271]

Thanks for your integrity in sharing with people like us who needs to know the truth. I know the pain you went through because I had that bad experience too. Professors and advisors are usually not giving you any help at all.

[@ladyashephd727]

It takes great Confidence to stand before people and discuss your dissertation research.

[@jgreen5849]

This was a really refreshing video to watch, even though I passed my orals. I did a mock exam not just with my list supervisors but with colleagues who had taken orals from the same professors. The practice was helpful, not necessarily in predicting the kind of questions but in getting used to answering them efficiently. Even though I didn't answer every question correctly, I was able to "massage" the question into a context I was familiar with.

[@NasihAlam87]

You are such a prestigious professor but yet so humble and honest. You are my hero, Dr. Mullaney. You are also a wonderful presenter. A lot to learn from you.

[@tsmullaney]

This is very kind, thank you for writing. It means a lot to me

[@LittleMissTotoro]

Thank you for the honesty! I am getting so annoyed with people telling me I will just pass/it will be fine. I frankly don't want to talk to those people at all...

[@riyanhidayatullah2587]

It's ok bro, thanks for sharing your story, I think, Not everyone has the guts to tell the truth.. and it's cool man.. greetings from Indonesia

[@hailingzhao5233]

Thanks so much for your video. It's really touching. I just finished my PhD program in the UK recently. Although the system is a bit different here, the video reminds me of the nerve and pressure that I experienced during my upgrading oral exam a few years ago. I really appreciate that faculties can do such honest and open discussions.

[@bettytonui]

Wao, thank you for your honesty. It really feels awful to fail an exam but you are out there helping out to many students like me who are scared of such an exam. I appreciate

[@antonsmith9788]

Great video! Truth telling at its finest! You can apply the same concerns to the tenure and promotion process. So many folks were saying that everybody get tenure and promotion, but, in reality, people do fail. Just as the orals are about preparation, planning, and performance, so too is P & T.

[@Aritul]

Thank you for making this video. It has been so helpful if only to let people know that they are not alone.

[@ms.chubbyblue]

Thank you for this amazing video ❤ Academia can be so confusing and such candid demystification of its hidden rules and expectations is so needed and helpful!

[@tsmullaney]

In preparation for the livestream on Aug 24, post any questions you might have. Let's have an open and honest conversation about the PhD process, and what happens when you fail a major milestone. All topics welcome!

[@suisuiwang7763]

really looking forward to the livestream! question: how to disagree with the oral exam committee in non-confrontational but generative manners, like pushing the boundaries without making professors feel that their authorities are challenged? (for example, what if the graduate student find the intellectual parameters of the qualifying exam questions themselves questionable?) asking for a friend who just finished the written exam and is preparing for oral defense in two weeks :) many thanks.

[@tsmullaney]

​@@suisuiwang7763 A very good, and very sensitive, question. Thanks for asking. I would say: you want to prepare and drill for orals in such a way that you become expert at rerouting/steering, rather than disagreeing or confronting. Orals is simply not the best venue for open confrontation, in the same way that the Job Talk Q&A isn't a great venue for confrontation (I bring up that comparison because, as you'll see in the video Monday, I make the claim that the closest cousin Orals has in an academic career is the Job Talk Q&A). Rather than openly confronting, I would say that the best path is to learn how to "substantively redirect/reshape/finesse" questions so that they enable you to do your best and show what you know. In addition, time is so extremely precious in an orals exam that you don't want to squander it in the kind of back-and-forth/clarification/"what I meant to say was..." stuff that often accompanies moments of confrontation and awkwardness. Remember: the orals exam is, I'm afraid to say, an asymmetric power relationship, and so anything that "goes bad" or "gets awkward' is, 99 times out of 100, going to affect the examinee, *not* the examiner. (*One major proviso here is if there is any actual ethical misconduct in the room, as in, truly inappropriate actions or behaviors that call into the question the exam itself--but this is the extremely rare "nuclear option" moment, not your run-of-the-mill kinds of intellectual disagreements).

[@suisuiwang7763]

@@tsmullaney Thanks Tom! This is really helpful, especially the metaphor of rerouting/redirect. This skill seems to be rather prevalent in many many scenarios from grad seminar discussion hedging to talk Q&A! Would love to hear more of your elaboration in future videos.

[@hejianzhu5640]

Thank you for this great opportunity! I have a short question about setting a timeline for committee meeting. What shall we do if some of the members are extremely busy and cannot offer feedback timely or sometimes often miss the deadline?

[@StopThePrejudice]

I really wish I found this video before my orals. I had basically the same exact experience. I went to take it and was blind-sided! I know why I failed, I wasn't as prepared as I should've been, but that doesn't change the hurt I feel. Am I drinking to numb the pain, maybe. Will I retake it to stay in this PhD program, maybe? I don't know, my committee was ruthless.

[@tsmullaney]

By the way I am starting up a new subset of the channel that something like an academic mentorship network. Not sure if you might be interested in learning more but let me know

[@ivicino]

Thank you Tom!!! Thank you for being honest!!!

[@alexusandmichi]

Just stumbled upon this video as I am now preparing for my comprehensive oral exams! Very interesting to hear your own experience and thank you so much for sharing your knowledge! Gotta check out your other comps videos now :)

[@junkomatsubara7637]

Amazing video and breathtaking story-telling!

[@mollysmith2713]

"a kind of cognitive dissonance that was being generated by a sense of anxiety from myself"

[@bahaa978]

I wanted to ask the same question.

[@chavoux]

I think what got me to not be too nervous beforehand, was the realization that at that stage I probably knew more about the specific contribution of new knowledge that came from my thesis than anybody else in the room, except possibly my supervisor. I knew that I had written down only the most useful subset of everything I had learned during field work and analysis in my thesis. And I realized that there would almost certainly be some questions to which I did not have the answer yet, because of time and money constraints doing my research. These are opportunities for future research.

[@Marcus-gw4bb]

You brought up a very interesting point about time constraints, to me at least. I will be presenting my internship research in front of the whole department and having analyzed my data and overall research project, I noticed that there were still "holes", if that makes sense, that have not been filled throughout my research. If asked during my presentation, is it possible to use time constraints as a possible reason why those said "holes" were not filled/explored during my internship? P.S. my internship is a mandatory 6-month programme.

[@chavoux]

@@Marcus-gw4bb Yes, time constraints always exist. Part of doing research (and increasing our knowledge) is also showing how much we still don't know... it is better to show these "holes" as avenues for future research, rather than being confronted for ignoring the "holes" (or worse, not even noticing them).

[@tamhaye3114]

Thanks Tom for sharing! You are an inspiration for me and many others!!

[@reverendayodeleolaniyi724]

Whao! This is the greatest encouraging stuff I got

[@valor36az]

Fantastic advice, thanks for the personal experience

[@Chulthim]

Thank you so much for sharing your kind experience. This helps me preparing my own oral.

[@janicekabwe641]

Thank you so much for sharing.

[@user-mu3nj4ul4f]

Thank you, Professor Mullaney! What you share seems true to me and extends my interpretation at the time of my orals: how you perform when taken past the limits of your knowledge. Your discussion of pressured performance reminds me of my training to give conference talks, preparing answers to the predictable questions and audience winning response strategies for others. That said, I wonder if my life might have turned out more effective if I had failed my first oral exam -- then left laboratory research sooner to work on social justice projects I find more compelling. ;)

[@tsmullaney]

Sometimes the only “existential point” of one journey is to give way to the one you’re really meant for!

[@a.w2776]

We don't have this system in Nz. So glad we don't. Sounds horrible.

[@ashvarma1]

Thanks for sharing. Very helpful.

[@jeanlanie1]

Subscribed!

[@reviveramesh]

Thanks for your honest sharing. Very helpful.

[@tsmullaney]

I appreciate you writing and letting me know this. It felt like it was time to make that video, and I hope it's helping people.

[@tsmullaney]

By the way I am starting up a new subset of the channel that something like an academic mentorship network. Not sure if you might be interested in learning more but let me know

[@trulyblessed5947]

I came back to say that I took my orals and passed. Also, while this professor has good insights, be aware that there is no formula for passing. The four categories that this professor gives were there, but they were not asked in order. And, when you are under pressure, you don't have time to stop and figure out which category is up. The best advice I can give based on my personal experience is to ask questions of the committee. Ask them to tell you at least two questions they will ask. Also, ask them to tell you which sources they expect you to know. I had to read about 80 sources. There is no way a two hour exam can cover all that. And you should not have to master so many sources not knowing which ones will you will be questioned on. So, in short, communicate with the committee members. Choose members that you know and who will help you.

[@novita5921]

Thank you for sharing. Very useful!

[@MrX_TV]

There are a number of questions designed to make you uncomfortable. Two very common tactics are: (1) just off the bat ask you the question your thesis is attempting to answer; (2) ask a question, usually 50% jargon, that doesn't make sense. The first question sounds easy but they always ask it a way that makes your thesis sound like the world's simplest answer to the world's most obvious question. If they're being really mean then they'll ask a pointless follow-up question. Everyone will be smiling and being nice because it's the beginning of things and this makes it seem worse. You'll feel like you've just spent years researching a really pointless topic. For example your thesis might be on why X is Y, the question will be something like: "So why do YOU think X is Y?" But the tone of voice will be like they're asking, "So, we all know X isn't Y what are you playing at?" The follow up might be "what do YOU think X is?" The aim is to knock your confidence and have you doubting your own expertise. The oral is a test of expertise - do you handle yourself like an expert? To conquer this question you must be able to confidently give a 30 second overview of the answer. It's a silly question but be professional and give a brief answer. Credit is given not for the answer but how you handle it. The same goes for the follow-up, "what is X?" question. Just give a brief answer and move on. The second type of question, filled with jargon, is purely designed to throw you. Remember the university don't want to certify you as an expert and then have you crumple when the first no-nothing reporter asks you a pseudo-question. The way to conquer this question is to ask them to explain it in another way, or even if they can relate it to a different area of your thesis. 8/10 they can't or they drop it.

[@NimN0ms]

I got a conditional pass on my orals yesterday. Pretty broken up. But, I also received great scores on my NIH F31 application. I'm so conflicted.

[@schmetterling4477]

That means they think you can make it, if you want to. All you have to do is to want to.

[@saleemahmuhammad6656]

A conditional pass is better than no pass. Just do the work that is required so that you can get a full pass.

[@lowefuss3194]

There’s a Hungarian pastry shop at Columbia, why was I not informed of this?

[@jeffwangzihan]

Amazing Talk! Thank you.

[@trulyblessed5947]

Good advice.

[@OleJoe]

As a math teacher I went to a community college for a teaching job interview. The interviewers ask me to work out a couple of math problems on the board. They were "following" along by taking notes. One of them interrupted me and said, "I don't think you did that last step right." He looked at his colleague and said "What do you think?" The guy said, "I don't know, something doesn't look right." Anyway, this caused me to go back over and recheck all my steps. They did this about three or four times. Then they asked me to leave and they had a "conference" and then called me back and said that I didn't get the job. I went out to the car and reworked the problems and I had worked them all correctly. Those son of a bitches where just trying to get me confused and question my abilities and shake my confedense in an all ready high stress situation.

[@cryora]

I don't know. That last sentence of this comment, doesn't look right. Is it possible that they did it for a different reason, and did they tell you why?

[@lisar.271]

This is what scares me about going for my doctorate.

[@tsmullaney]

You can do it. Being scared is AOK. But you can do it.

[@Chiny_w_Pigulce]

Waiting for the livestream in anticipation! I'm going to apply for a PhD in the Netherlands next year, also in Chinese history. I will be a TA next semester, my grades are very good and I'm involved in two university projects as student assistant. How can I up my chances? Should I publish some additional articles, get to know more people at the university to vouch for me, or maybe spend that time perfecting the PhD proposal? Unfortunately a day only has 24 hours, and I cannot do all the above.

[@mariodegrandis6036]

@ mastaof I assume that when you ask "How can I up my chances?" you refer to getting a job after you graduate, is my assumption correct?

[@Chiny_w_Pigulce]

@@mariodegrandis6036 I'm going to apply for a grant that will allow me to get paid for doing a PhD at the university. In Netherlands you can either respond to a PhD candidate vacancy (which are very rare in non-STEM disciplines) or apply for a grant with a professor who wants to supervise your thesis.

[@Zakariah1971]

You did not fail, YOUR ADVISERS FAILED YOU. Shame on them.

[@RosinaChimuna]

Hi help me I'm not getting your link

[@XC-iy4il]

thanks for this interesting and informative talk. my history department only asks for written field exams (under a fixed amount of time); in the oral exam, most questions are about the prospectus. So I always wonder, what kind of historiographical questions do professors ask in oral field exam? how specific the answer should be? What are the common scenarios of failure? Is it because students got "ambushed" by certain questions that they find difficult to answer? or is it because professors are not satisfied?

[@jhamdan2012]

What discipline are you taking?

[@robertporchia9389]

After having built up this exam as a "no fail" test...can you speak about your mental health? Any thoughts of self harm? Any thoughts of quitting the program?

[@Whoa802]

Is an oral exam the same thing as the defense?

[@thefingerofgod69]

It depends (but usually not). Usually when people talk about a "defense" they speak of it in relation to the dissertation. But I guess some departments speak of an "orals defense".

[@cryora]

Where I'm from the dissertation is the thesis you write, while the defense is the actual oral presentation of the dissertation and the Q&A and examination after. It sounds like that is what the video is talking about, and no the candidacy oral presentation, which has the same types of pressure. Arguably the defense is higher stakes because you've already invested more time into it. On the other hand, by the time you get to the defense, you are likely more prepared that you were for the candidacy, when you haven't even done the experiment(s) yet and are trying to sell the promise of doing it.

[@thefingerofgod69]

@@cryora I was assuming that the "orals exams" the OP was asking about are the qualifying exams (sometimes written and sometimes oral and sometimes both) that happens before you become a PhD candidate, go off research and write the dissertation, and then defend it. In that defense, you do have a presentation (depending upon the department it is either more or less of a formalized presentation) and then Q&A session (again more or less formalized depending upon the tradition in your school/department). But then again, I could be wrong about what the OP meant when he or she asked about "orals exams".

[@iramarshad700]

I am about to giving viva and I have no idea about the oral exam. My supervisor is saying you will pass but I know that I need to prepare a lot before appearing in the exam. Can anyone here in comments guide what needs to prepare before oral exam? I know all of my thesis work has been published in well reputed Journal and good conferences but I need to prepare. I am so worried about what to prepare and how to handle the questions. Comments are most welcome regarding to the suggestions!

[@lokitheschnauzer]

hold on, you mean, you advisors failed your first attempt because they didn't tell you the grading rubrics are gonna be based on "a job talk"? why you chose to stay in the academy since it is so fucked up? And people have to learn from your video to learn how to pass their exams? why do graduate student need their advisors after all?

[@internette7229]

You got the whole point wrong. What he meant is that his experience at an oral exam resembled his experience at a job talk. He's drawing an analogy to help understand what to expect from an oral exam, and he's NOT saying that it's BASED ON a job talk. That would obviously be a ridiculous thing. Also, he's trying to help people who might be clueless, but obviously, people don't "have to learn from" his video to learn how to pass their exams. There are hundreds of thousands of Ph.D. students who passed their exams without watching his video. It seems like you have lots of resentment toward academia. And academia does have some problems, but that's the same with other career options. We need to try to diagnose and solve those problems, but blanketedly fuming resentment, saying "it is so fucked up" and misinterpreting his point to exaggerate the problem, won't help. It won't help improving academia, and more importantly, it won't help YOU. (And just FYI, I'm a Ph.D. student, so I'm not talking from the position of authority.)

[@richardbaskas9406]

it can be a conversation IF you are prepared! Again, there is no excuse!!!!

[@richardbaskas9406]

there's no excuse!!!! if you don't know what the orals are about, ASK!!!!!!!!!

[@cryora]

Or watch youtube videos about the Ph.D. process and get recommended a video like this one.

[@mickeykozzi]

ive never even heard of anyone who failed their orals. that means you didnt understand your own thesis. how sad

[@trulyblessed5947]

"that means you didnt understand your own thesis" is a presumptuous statement. How can you really prepare when you have no idea what the examiners expect? I have an oral coming up within the month. I asked each of the committee member to tell me what books / articles they expect me to have. I expressed that I did not want to read 100 books / articles that do not include what THEY want. Rather than go through all of that and then be told at the end of a failed oral what sources they wanted, I asked ahead of the oral. When I did ask, surprise, surprise . . . each gave me a list of 7-10 books that I did not have. I also asked for at least three questions that each will ask. A few I expected, but there were some that I was not prepared for. It has nothing to do with knowing the thesis. It has to do with being prepared for questions that will be asked, for example, I have to know a minute historical fact that barely has anything to do with my thesis. Had I not asked, there is no way I would have been prepared for that question. So, Mickey, a bit less judgement from you, please. Perhaps, a few bits of advice would be more beneficial since, apparently, you've been through and passed the oral?

[@mickeykozzi]

​@@trulyblessed5947 like I said, if you fail your orals you do not understand your own thesis. That simple.

[@mickeykozzi]

@@trulyblessed5947 you really are a l oser