I FAILED so YOU don't have to! Investigating the ZWO AM5 Meridian Flip to get GOOD SETTINGS

[@astrochumak]

Cuiv, your attitude towards this hobby and facing mistakes is incredible. Please know that your positivity, which I'm sure sometimes can be hard to maintain, pays off and you are making the lives of us, astrophotography peasants, much easier. And we love you

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Thank you so much! That's really why I'm making these videos :-)

[@givemespace2742]

'Because I'm an idiot'. So it isn't just me!

[@kurtmiller976]

I just ran into this issue with my AM5 as well. Being so new to the hobby, I had no idea how to address this. Thank you for this video! I just tested two meridian flips with your settings during the daytime. I used two targets: Andromeda and Andromeda III for the test. It flipped successfully, stoped Andromeda (fixed end time), slew back to the other side for Andromeda III, then flipped again successfully when it hit the meridian again. I'm so glad I dumped ASIAir for NINA too.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Excellent!! Glad I could help, and well done in putting it in practice!

[@McTavish11T7]

You're one of the few people on KZbin who I will press the like button for, before I've even watched the video. Great enthusiasm and straight forward vids. It's always a joy to watch, thank you

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Thanks so much Jono!!

[@fazergazer]

This is one of those videos that makes me say to myself “wow I’m glad I saw this, before I made the same mistake”. Thanks so much for this!❤🎉

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Glad it helped! Enjoy the automated flips :-)

[@ubergarm]

Fast forward a few months and ZWO paid attention to Cuiv and newer firmware now supports tracking up to 15 degrees after meridian configurable in ASCOM driver. I couldn't get firmware update to work via the WLAN hand controller feature, but it worked fine by installing latest ASCOM driver and using it via USB cable to update (no need to download the .bin file yourself). Going to try it with N.I.N.A. and mount firmware version 1.3.7 set to 10 degrees. Thanks for all the nitty gritty details!

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Awesome!

[@AstroVagabond]

Ran into this issue last night but I had prior knowledge of the issue. Thanks for another great video Cuiv! Much appreciated.

[@allenbaylus3378]

I want to add one thing here about ASIAIR - which I use. It seems to me to have issues with Meridan Flips as well - I will have a good night going and it will hit the flip and then it will be unable to guide. I intercede and send it to a second alternive target before it hits meridian and then after shooting that for an hour I go back to my primary target. It will lose comms with my main camera even though there is no issue with the cabling. A full shutdown will mostly fix this. I have not figured out why but I almost always set an alarm up on my for merdiian flips. I could point the mount back to home position and then go back to my main target as well and it will be set up correctly. The ASIAIR is pretty solid most of the time. I have run NINA on a laptop as well, but I perfer the simplicity of the small form factor that ASI has. They only need to work on making the plugs a little hardier - the USB plugs and the power plug seems to be a future point of failure on my ASIAIR Plus. I only pull the USB Drive out and the power plug out between uses - but they feel "soift" to me - like a few hundred inserts would be the end of its usefulness. I may be getting one of the MINI ASIAIR for my main setup since I only power 1 camera off of it and move the Plus to my secondary telescope (which is still being designed/built).

[@markalot]

New AM3 owner, this just saved my first night of imaging, thanks!

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Glad this helped! I noticed that the latest ASCOM driver has a fix though, you can change the minutes past meridian it will track!

[@petergrotz5236]

Thank you so much, Cuiv, for this video that helped me to solve the same problem that you had

[@toddweiler227]

Cuiv, this flip is going to impact a number of solar users April 8, 2024. The sun will approach the meridian 20 minutes before the moment of totality according the simulation I did in Stellarium for Texas…which is weatherwise the best US place. I had this problem during the annular October eclipse as well as the mount just stopped tracking. I hit GOTO and it did the flip and I had to tweak the tracking with the scope on the other side. A lot of people who don’t know this will lose a lot of continuity as the flip happens. As a work around I’m hoping I can start with the scope on the east side and let it follow the sun to the west as it will then be rising away from the tripod as the sun sets west. I have a small Meade 60 SolarMax II and a pier. Fingers crossed. Keep up the good work.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Honestly I'd probably just use the mount in Alt-Az mode!

[@enqueir]

good to know cuiv! as usual great video ... curious to find out a test on the new Ioptron HAE29 ....

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

I don't have my hands on that mount at this time :)

[@jensleuteritz6827]

Arg...that happens, It kind of belongs to professionalism I guess. 🙂 I had something similar, but not mount related lateley. I setup everything, a good NINA sequence, even watched the Meridian Flip for cable things and went to bed short past 12, awaiting that the sequence will continue to 03:00. I checked with Anydesk the last time from my bed and was looking forward to the next morning. Well, Anydesk after wakeup showed the Windows start screen, which is not normal in my case. So, it turned out Windows had done an update and decided to reboot the imaging laptop afterwards. This was at 01:30, so I lost 1,5hours of very good seeing sky with very good guiding. Lessons learned, tuned Windows to not disturb my imaging sessions again...I hope. We are all learning. 🙂 Continue your good work, I have fun watching every single of your videos! CS, Jens!

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Yep, I have windows set up to update only during the day time!

[@benjamincherniawski8564]

Just received the Pegasus Astro NYX-101 and made the switch to NINA. I am still warming up to the new hard/software. I am having the exact same flipping hiccup with NINA. Very timely video/topic!

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Glad this was able to help!

[@JVRost]

Although I don’t have AM5, I do have an EQmod and a roof in the observatory, the fight against troubles in our hobby is the same eternal satellite as the Moon is with the Earth) For example, in EQMod it’s just a quest to make two telescope positions, but in the Green Swamp it’s easier and better, but there it is necessary to perform dances with the flip of the meridian. There is no ideal in the World, but that is why the World is developing.

[@andrewweller5119]

ASIAIR Meridian Flip options are pretty basic. Available only in Plan and Autorun modes. The option are, Stop tracking X minutes before meridian, Do AMF (Automatic Meridian Flip) x min after Meridian, and recalibrate Guiding after AMF. That's pretty much it. I leave it on the defaults with my EQ8-R Pro and C11 XLT and works seamlessly.

[@twobrotherskayaking4736]

Hey, just to say I ran a meridian flip two nights ago for the first time on my new AM5 mount. It went flawlessly and just as you described. After the flip it went to auto calibrate the guiding and did that and right back to imaging. The only thing I noticed was the image in my PC display (using the ASIAIR Plus and app) was mirror flipped on the X axis. I'll just have to rotate those in the ASI reader.

[@simonpepper5053]

@@twobrotherskayaking4736 that’s normal and stacking software takes care of this

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Thanks for the feedback, this is good to know! Basic but works is always nice, I wonder what AM5 specific options there are though!

[@andrewweller5119]

@@twobrotherskayaking4736 after the AMF the image will be mirrored. This is because the scope and camera positions are flipped.

[@andrewweller5119]

@@CuivTheLazyGeek I am not sure that there are any AM% specific features. i was looking at the the AM5 the other day but can't justify the outlay at the moment. my CFO has laser beams for eyes and even the mention of new kit makes them glow like Homelander haha I luve my EQ8-R and EQ6-R and will stick with them for a good few years now i think.

[@damiengalanaud3817]

Hello Cuiv. I use the mount both with the ASIair and a PC. For the second option, I also use the ASImount app on my iPhone. While the ASIair works great for shorter focal length, I found it somewhat lacking at higher ones, with plate solving nearly constantly failing. So with the 8 inches Edge HD, I rather use SharpCap and PHD2, for acquisition, combined with the ASIMount app for going to the target. I had absolutely no issue using the simultaneously the app with the ASCOM drivers, so even if you think that the development on the PC is lagging as compared to the ASIAir, I think ZWO still did a pretty good job. As for the meridian flip, well, it works on the ASIAir, does not on the PC but to be frank, I never managed to get meridian flip working in ASCOM even with my HEQ5 !

[@JohnMcGFrance]

Thanks for the heads up on this issue. My AM5 is on order and if I had not seen this I would have had the same problem as I always have 5 minutes after the meridian before flipping. Unless of course the new firmware/ascom drivers have addressed it. My old AZEQ6 has given up on me after heavy use over 7 years in all temperatures, 2 rebuilds and me dropping it! Looking forward to trying the much lighter AM5. Sadly I’ve got at least a month to wait but that will mean lots of clear skies pfor everyone else 😂 Any more AM5 tips would be great. Thanks again and clear skies.

[@ngc1039]

The automatic meridian flip thing is a pain, I went down the rabbit hole a bit with it in my last job, but to no avail. The only real solution would be to add something to the API of the (proprietary) mount control software to provide a direct way to control the flip (e.g. another argument when requesting a slew to say which side of the meridian the mount should point). It turns out the problem isn't only the time, there are other complications (mostly related to coordinate systems, i.e. what coordinate system is the mount calculating the hour angle in when making the decision of when to flip?) that can cause the mount's idea of where the meridian flip should be to disagree with the client's idea of where it should be, often at the few minutes level so large enough to matter. On the system I was running, the pointing model seemed to be included in the mount's calculation of the hour angle, and the API didn't give the client access to the model or to the mount's native position, so there wasn't really any way to do it properly. In the end it was pretty much the usual guesswork similar to what you describe to let it track some way across, cross your fingers and hope you went far enough, and hit slew.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

That's pretty much it... That's why I like to do the flip 10 minutes after the meridian, to be safe

[@astrocarone9671]

Had this happen twice. Turns out my AM5 was off by 3000 seconds 🙃 this video helped very very much.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Glad this helped!

[@RobertKarlBerta]

Is there an update to this? The Meridian flip on the AM5 is implemented in a firmware change for the ASI AIR's. It will stop the mount 5 minutes before the meridian and wait to 5 minutes after and than do a flip. It will recalibrate your guider settings than resume. Note that the meridian flip evidently won't work except in the plan and auto mode. Otherwise it will simply go to the point when the scope is pointing straight up and than shut the mount down so as to avoid damage or ripping cables out. Seems to work fine now but will do some more tests when the weather gets better.

[@larry5488]

Thanks for this video. I'm in the market for a new mount and this video is telling me that I should look away from the AM5. I use a mixed bag of brands for my gear and any significant hint that a manufacturer is trying to lock me into their ecosystem is the surest way to get me to avoid them. While simplicity of a single ecosystem is attractive to some, I prefer maximum flexibility even if it means (or maybe because it means) tinkering is necessary.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Glad I could help! All up to each in the end, I'm just here to provide my own findings :-)

[@spunbearing]

I have a celestron advanced gt mount. This thing is very finicky with ASIAir. When I PA, I have to disconnect the mount and rotate the RA the 60 degrees so it can take the second plate solve image. Otherwise it just stops dead and doesnt move. If I dont rotate it back to index before I reconnect the mount it will think its in a completely different location and probably crash into the tripod. I also noticed that during one of its flips, it solved after the flip but the target was off. Usually it does it without problems. Needless to say I will never buy another celestron mount again. I shouldn't have to babysit this thing the whole night to keep it working.

[@gregerianne3880]

Thanks for sharing your experience, Cuiv! Always helpful for us. I can't speak to ASCOM drivers since I use the ASIAir exclusively, but I've been caught before by forgetting to even activate the meridian flip in the ASIAir. It was scary when I was watching the run on my phone and the DEC and RA started drifting off into never-never land! Palm slap in the head. Duh!

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Can you save those meridian flip settings in the ASIAir to avoid forgetting?

[@gregerianne3880]

@@CuivTheLazyGeek Yes, definitely! It was just the first time I completely forgot to turn on Meridian Flip. The ASIAir retains your settings, though.

[@donmcgovern8039]

Had this same thing happen with my Sirius and C8. Mount didn't park however. Thank you for this! Now I know what I'm looking for!

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Glad I could help!

[@robaro7866]

Like you I cant use the ASIAir so I have ended up passing on the AM5 am instead looking at the Pegasus Astro NYX-101 and the new JTW FireAnt.

[@nuclearlee]

I love you am5 w/o asiair vids. I'm going to be using mine for solar imaging and one of my cameras isn't a zwo and I already have a nice laptop for it.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Awesome, I hope you enjoy!

[@DoktorApe]

Just got bit by this lmao, fortunately this video came up on the first page of search results. I was lucky that I was watching NINA when it happened and realized it was related to the meridian flip - I rehomed the mount and slewed it back to M101 while troubleshooting and noticed it ended up on the other side of the mount. Sure enough, the timestamps on the messed up images were right at meridian flip time.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Glad I was able to help! :-)

[@andrewweller5119]

love the Leo Triplet. just having constant cloud here in the UK at the moment.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

It's such a great target! I hope you get clear skies soon, we're headed for a week of rain here...

[@DoktorApe]

ASIAir is definitely simple in terms of configuration, but it (including meridian flip) works out of the box without a lot of dinking around. The ecosystem lock is definitely a thing, but there's a place for keeping it simple for people who don't want to dink around with computers outside of work.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Completely understand! I just don't like locked ecosystems:-)

[@glennsmooth]

Ecosystems are the way for companies... Apple, Samsung, ZWO, etc.. They do have their downsides. I started on ZWO and it's awesome but some doors are closed like what if I want to track a satellite? it's a no-go. So now I'm starting to set up a mini PC with Nina, SkyTrack etc. to open a few more doors and have ultimate control.

[@DanPechiu]

Beta firmware 1.2.4 was released since I packed up my scope a month ago due to weather, so I didn't test it. But I had used beta firmware 1.2.3 and I was able to perform 3 consecutive meridian flips, error free, at 57 minutes past the meridian. I am using NINA, not ASIAIR. I can't wait to test the 1.2.4 version this weekend

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Excellent I hope the newer version works well for you!

[@Seafox0011]

What is a meridian flip? …. I use an AltAz mount lol. I do have an EQ mount but due to city location and obscured celestial pole its not practical to use for time captures. My challenges are different… field rotation but a de-rotator handles that through NINA.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

You must have really good tracking to have three motors working together to track everything!

[@Seafox0011]

@@CuivTheLazyGeek To be honest I’m only doing lucky imaging - so very short exposures and many, plus very high gain sensors… noise is my friend and storage space my enemy ;-)

[@sammyairlines9307]

Cuiv, thanks for the videos. They are enjoyable and informative. My solution to the meridian flip is that I have so many trees past the meridian a flip is useless. Not the best solution but I have to work with it.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Ha! Now THAT is a solution :p

[@florent864]

Hi . the meridian flip window of 2 minute is too short. If after the flip , the plate solve show a huge drift, nina will ask the mount to make a flip back. too bad to hear this limitation as i m a nina / pegasus user. may be in nina you can put a loop until meridian flip and and then make a pause before continue . it will be safer than a 2 minu window, especially on large fov where plate solving can be tricky.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

I see what you mean - I'll experiment some more

[@messianicmuse]

Excellent way of overcoming very difficult obstacles. Hopefully they will update the ASCOM driver. I won't buy this mount until they do. Thanks so much.

[@roymixon]

Hello Cuiv, would this also apply to the AM3 mount as well. I'm new, Trying to wrap head around the meridian flip concept. I use NINA -

[@MichaelLevAstro]

I know the PC controller for the mount lacks a lot of features i'd love to have. Like slewing to some random targets or planets when doing planetary with sharpcap. I'd like to be able to disable the annoying beep every start and end of a slew (which asi air users have the option) I'd like to be able to set limits in the controller. And I personally left Nina at 0 minutes passed meridian and had no issues (*other then the occasional cable snag and tear due to bad cable management)

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Good to know that keeping at 0 minutes also works!

[@roymixon]

Cuiv, does this apply to the AM3 as well ? I would assume it does?

[@beatsntoons]

heh, I went through the same thing a few months ago. I'm using a beta driver now and I think it's fixed but can't test (like you, bad weather but for months...) edit: also, just keep an eye on daylight savings changes. I once went camping at night and just happened to wake up an hour early for no reason and looked outside. The mount was doing a full flip one hour early, even though it wasn't supposed to. Scared the heck out of me, and I stopped it literally millimetres from destroying my scope.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Thanks for the tip! Concerning the DST, we don't have that in Japan! :)

[@beatsntoons]

@@CuivTheLazyGeek lucky you! guess it's something to remember if you travel with the mount and go somewhere with DST (seeing as they're perfect travel mounts)

[@Jonasastrophotos]

i really wanted this mount but unfortunately i just cant justify double the price of an EQ6-R (here in your it is actually double in price)

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Yeah, then the EQ6R is a no brainer

[@easyastroimages5818]

Same issues. It tried the beta and they are bad. I’ll try these settings. Thanks for bringing this to their attention. Maybe they will get their act together now and fix all this.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Fingers crossed!

[@NGC7000]

Merci beaucoup pour cette vidéo. Vous venez de faire mention d’un problème que j’ai depuis, et que je n’arrive pas à résoudre. J’utilise une monture Skywatcher EQ6 pro, et ma caméra est une ZWO 1600 MM. Je me retrouve toujours avec ce même problème de guidage où mon AD décroche toujours presque tout les 5 minutes après le changement de méridien. Cela va durer aussi longtemps que la monture sera guidé dans cette partie opposée. (En général la partie ouest). Je ne sais plus à quelle saint me vouer. J’utilise APT comme programme d’acquisition d’images.

[@derekokeeffe9919]

Oh yes, I had a similar problem with my CEM120 mount using INDI/EKOS. It took a while to get the settings right

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Glad you got it working!

[@niraj_dave]

Cuiv have you tried doing meridian flip before meridian crossing? because that's how do I mine and not bother with wait time. I use avx mount and since it has limits depending on the objects I observe-I set it so that meridian flip happens before object crosses meridian-once that's done-it keeps on imaging fine. I don't loose lot of time that way. if AM5 can't do meridian flip before object crosses meridian-then it'd be a bummer for sure.

[@trevormcdougall446]

I really like zwo products but the fact that they are trying to lock us in to using only their cameras with the ASIair is a turn off. As far as I can see they have based the software on rasberrypi ekos software which supports all kinds of cameras, so they have intentionally removed access to these.

[@phcalama]

Perhaps. But perhaps they are focusing on their closed system before branching out to other non-ZWO equipment which I personally prefer since it means firmware/software updates within their ecosystem will be more timely.

[@Hilmi12]

​@@phcalama not true, it's a business strategy to lock you in, the system is based on indi, reliable indi drivers are available for other brands, but they don't want to support other brands because the ASIAir was a tool for them to sell their cameras

[@shaunozs1ra92]

This is the reason that I buy QHYCCD.

[@SteveHookEm]

So I am a little confused (usually that way)---is Meridian flip fine for users of the ASIAir Plus? Can you do a video about the flip for Air users?

[@easyastroimages5818]

i was able to get 5 min after and 8 min max to work with beta 1.23 and a 15 degree offset. it seems to be the safest of the new betas. 1.24 seems to have many tracking bugs but 1.23 was 4-4 for me today. i will be posting my results video soon

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Interesting so beta 1.23 would be the one to get! It's a bit frustrating, but I trust it will work long term

[@easyastroimages5818]

@@CuivTheLazyGeek we will see. I’ll keep testing and using it. I’m sure zwo will jump on this now. Bravo again.

[@gregmckay666]

Another informative video. I really like the idea of the AM5 for its portability but I'm not a fan of any company that tries to lock users into only using specific gear...cough, APPLE, cough... The good thing though is that it does seems as though ZWO is working on making the ASCOM drivers as full featured as the ASI Air drivers so that's promising. I'm not an early adopter usually so by the time I buy the AM5 it will hopefully be fully featured for us NINA users too.

[@rvoykin]

I have everything ZWO it works flawlessly but yeah you are limited. Things like a electronic camera rotator that they don’t have out yet work with the ASIAIR and obviously no QHY cameras :(

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

How do you like them APPLEs ? :p

[@michaelbenson5438]

I just purchased the AM5. I have a 120 mini guide camera, ZWO 294 OSC camera, ASIAIR, ZWO EAF, and AM5 mount. My first night of imaging was exactly what you were doing, Leo and Leo triplet. The setup took one picture (OK Sub) then meridan flip and no guiding (star trails galore). Wished I'd watched your video first. I don't have NINA yet. Any suggestions for a setup for my ASIAIR to do a proper flip and get guiding and tracking?

[@philleng480]

Never thought I would hear a Frenchman say 'wonky', it feels very un-French, lol. Take care Cuiv, you are doing a lot of videos, great to see but must be hard work.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Haha thank you!

[@deep_space_dave]

Hey Cuiv! That's too bad that ASCOM is an afterthought for the AM5, not cool! No one should be forced into an ecosystem (we had this discussion before) so was one reason why I went for the iOptron mount and not ZWO. If they want more people to use their stuff then they need to open up a bit. I understand locking down the ASIAir but not mounts and other stuff. I have seen people still having issues with the flip stopping at 2 minutes even after updated to the new firmware and ASCOM drivers. This was an informative video meridian flips and would have been nice for me to know some of this stuff when I first started LOL. Clear Skies!

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Yeah I hope the get ASCOM up to speed soon - glad this info can be useful in general! :)

[@samsaeed]

Hello Cuiv. I'm curious to know if you may have a chance to test the iOptron HAE29 or the HAE29EC. I truly enjoy your presentations and find them very useful.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

I don't have a contact at iOptron but I can definitely try to get a loaner :-)

[@samsaeed]

@@CuivTheLazyGeek This would be excellent. I hope you can manage to get the EC version (encoder).👍

[@OldGirlPhotography]

Personally I prefer an integrated ecosystem that works seamlessly. I'm also an Apple computer, phone, tablet, watch user. ZWO is walking a fine line - wanting as broad a customer base as possible while still producing their own unique product line. And as a newbie in this hobby, I've watched a lot of videos where the maker jury-rigged mini-PC's and cables and power banks and bits and bites of kit and that's not something I'm interested in. I think the hobby is evolving to be less dependent on that skill. That's what made it appealing for me to jump in at this point. I have ZWO cameras, EAF and ASI Air Plus with an Explore Scientific mount and Askar scope. Rig works well but could be better. I look forward to adding the AM5 mount and other ZWO products soon.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

That works too :-) I really don't like Apple (not the brand, their products which I find really hard to use) and I'm forced to use a Mac and iPhone at work :-(

[@conradsanders8475]

I am also not a fan of running all ZWO equipment. I do use ZWO cameras and NINA but not ASIAIR to control my mount. The Pegasus Harmonic mount looks promising but that would cost another $1000. I wonder if Rainbow harmonic mounts are any good ?

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

The RST-135 does get quite good reviews!

[@larrycable984]

I put the TC40 in a cupboard and got a iOptron LiteRoc 1.75" tripod with a PEC200 extension - much much better ...

[@PadraicLey56]

Thanks for the video, it sounds like ASIAir, and the mount should be OK. That is what I am heading. Since my time is limited and I lack time to experiment, buying components from the same ecosystem is a plus for me as a beginner.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

That works too, have fun!

[@crashmaxx1987]

Meridian limits need to be a day one feature for the ASCOM driver. Not something they wait around a few years to add.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Yeah at least there is an actual limit (e.g. it wouldn't run the scope into the tripod) but it really should be customizable. Even Vixen (well known for being very slow on software) has that option from day 1

[@bartholomule]

Is there a trigger or something in Nina to detect that it isn't tracking? I'd expect it to enter a retry loop where it occasionally plate solves, recenters on target and reenables tracking. My asiair doesn't do that (if there are multiple targets in the plan, it may skip to the next at some point though), and I lost part of a night of imaging because a cloud popped up for a bit and the guiding took it way off course.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

NINA can periodically check your framing, and recenter automatically mid-sequence, and enable tracking again. If the mount has stopped tracking, NINA doesn't do a meridian flip (NINA doesn't know why the mount stopped tracking: user intervention? Hit tripod? Weird limit reached? Doing the flip without knowing the cause can potentially be dangerous for the equipment)

[@ryanwood1911]

Great video as always. 👍 I have a couple of side questions. 1)NINA always stops shooting 5 plus minutes before meridian and waits for the object to pass the meridian before flipping. I have tried changing the NINA meridian settings and can’t get it to stop wasting that time. Any suggestions? Or do I have to start looking at the telescope ascom drivers (for my GEM28) or GSS (for my SkyWatcher)? 2) If the AM5 tracks so well, why does ZWO recommend astrophotography below 900mm fl only? P.S. When are you going to start a Discord channel?

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

1) is "Pause before meridian" set to 0? 2) maybe CYA? Better than over promising for sure - some seem to use the AM5 at higher focal lengths. Or maybe there are some mount samples that could have issues? No idea!

[@ryanwood1911]

@@CuivTheLazyGeek 1) I checked. It was set to “Pause 1 min before Meridian” so I set to 0. I frequently take 5 min exposures so maybe it won’t start an exposure that would take me into or past the pause period?

[@southbronxny5727]

My camera hit the leg yesterday after noticing a star trailing sub. Using APT, there's a 'session craft' button that handles the meridian flip settings but I don't know how to use it yet but the crash was scary.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

That's scary, I hope everything is intact!

[@thedeathtical]

Thank you. I just got an AM5 and have been dealing with this also. By chance, do you have the "Reverse DEC after meridian flip" checked in PHD2?

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

I don't have it - should I??

[@thedeathtical]

@@CuivTheLazyGeek if it's flipping as expected without it then I would say no. It was just something I tried to resolve my issue and it seemed to the first night I ran it like that, then the following night I went back to not working. I will be trying your suggestions when it clears up again this weekend. Thanks

[@dark-pixels]

By using the app on your smartphone connected via Wifi to the hand controller you can't change the meridian flip limits defined in the mount firmware ?

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Nope, no option there that I could see (or that ZWO mentioned when I reached out for support)

[@dark-pixels]

@@CuivTheLazyGeek 😮‍💨

[@frankm81m82]

My mount has no meridian limits , so I wait for Meridian flip to complete prior to going to bed. my Software controls the meridian flip, I set mine to 1 minute past meridian, but if the PC crashes the mount will keep tracking and crash into the pier.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

What mount is that?? No meridian limit seems rare for Go-to mounts

[@AntonioPena1]

I’m using for long time ago with parameters you recommended for Nina without issues during meridian flip, but I saw recently they have new firmware available, just wonder if you have checked with ZWO if they have improved Ascom drivers? using version 1.12, I asked them but I’m not a famous KZbinr like you so they do not care the rest of users, please recommend if you have tested?

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

They seem to have added the option to set your tracking past meridian in the latest Ascom driver!

[@twobrotherskayaking4736]

Hey, just to say I ran a meridian flip two nights ago for the first time on my new AM5 mount. It went flawlessly. After the flip it went to auto calibrate the guiding and did that and right back to imaging. The only thing I noticed was the image in my PC display (using the ASIAIR Plus and app) was mirror flipped on the X axis. I'll just have to rotate those in the ASI reader.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Mirror flipped is normal, since you physical telescope has been flipped upside down, effectively

[@michaelbenson5438]

Would you share what yuor ASIAIR settings were? Meridan flip settings? What version of ASIAIR? What version of AM5? Were you using NINA or ASIAIR setup? Thanks.

[@nickreecy4229]

I hear ya. These proprietary systems drive me nuts. But I'm a hypocrite, as I cannot deny how easy my ZWO (camera, focuser, asiair plus, am5) system works. I tweaked my meridian flip settings when I first got the mount back in November. As I was less concerned with hitting the tripod, with my setup. But overall, there was never any major trouble, just refinement.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Yep, it's the ease of the dark side ;)

[@johnadastra1754]

Am considering getting one of these mounts but am concerned about reports of high PE. Are you able to use PHD2 effectively, especially with the PPEC algorithm? With regard to meridian flips, I would think waiting a bit longer after the meridian would give more of a buffer zone on the flip east side.

[@damiengalanaud3817]

Absolutely, no issue about that. The trick, as recommended by ZWO, is to use short guiding intervals (1 s ). And I use this mount both with short focal length refractors and an 8 inches Celestron SCT at 1400 mm. For these heavier payloads, the only issue is that the tripod starts to become not strong enough and a little bit flexible, as Cuiv mentioned early in the video.

[@johnadastra1754]

@@damiengalanaud3817 Is this some method associated with the ASI-AIR? Changing the exposure interval in PHD2 won't do anything to eliminate periodic error. You need a PEC curve, like that from PEMPro, to neutralize the typical sine wave motion in RA with bad PE.

[@azuractive]

My understaning is the PE is not consistent with harmonic drives, so no PEC training possible. That said, My AM5 guides WAY better than my PEC-trained Skywatcher mount ever did. Consistently in the .2 - .3 RMS range out of the box with 1.5 second guide exposures in PHD2. I never achieved that with my Skywatcher mount after many hours of tinkering.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

As Jacqueline said, PPEC algorithm isn't applicable to strain wave gear mounts because there is no minutes-scale periodic error like a worm rotation induces. Still it guides quite well. Waiting a bit longer after the flip causes the mount to stop tracking, and NINA won't do the flip them (safety measure as NINA doesn't know why the mount stopped tracking, could be hit tripod, etc.)

[@hael8680]

Why not a minimum of 1 and max 4 min? Or even 0-4. That gives a wider buffer zone.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

0 could give a result where the flip doesn't happen (if the mount thinks it hasn't crossed the meridian), while 4 could reach a point where the mount has stopped tracking!

[@hael8680]

@@CuivTheLazyGeek can decimals be used ?

[@HarleyDoom]

These thoughts regarding ZWO are the same that I had and one of the main reasons I did not go for the ZWO ecosystem, instead deciding to go very much the same route that you have (including the Mele mini, PC albeit a different version and the Mono version of the camera you're currently using) It is my opinion that being locked into (or at least heavily encouraged to stick to) one ecosystem is too restrictive in a hobby that can last decades and I feel exclusivity should be discouraged lest it go too far like it has in other industries.

[@chhupparustom]

Any final words or closure on the AM5 tripod + wind issue?

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Not yet!

[@deepd4393]

I’m waiting for park command to be available for Ascom

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Yeah ,that too

[@stuparker776]

Hi Cuiv Mmmmmmm yes being a asi user it's really easy u set the time u want to stop tracking that's it.I haven't had any meridan flip issues but your thoughts are interesting I am wanting to use the am5 with a pc which I haven't done yet, so I might have some issues Second class citizen .....yes go on move to the dark side us asi users are treated well😊 Cheers Stu

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Haha I can't, I don't have the funds to replace both guide and main cameras just to use a proprietary system :)

[@tubedude54]

Looks at my C11 mounted on a wedge and thinking...'Meridian flip??... what's that?'!!

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

A wedge?? Never heard of that lol :p

[@tubedude54]

@@CuivTheLazyGeek LOL Forks RULE!! ;)

[@grahamwhite75a]

So Cuiv AM5 or CEM60?

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Not decided yet :)

[@N4GW]

Great catch, too bad it cost you a night of imaging

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Yep, really a shame...

[@MrWacha]

Yup, don't like this walled garden of the ZWO cause it translates directly into how you spend your money, depriving you of the freedom where you spend it. In my specific case I went with Touptek cameras and for difference between ZWO versions I was able to purchase second hand high class mount (GEM45 in v. good condition) which works great with N.I.N.A. via ASCOM. And it works great with other acqusition software too, so there's that. Waiting for time when ZWO decides it pays for them to break up with ASCOM compatibility altogether.

[@Rfhuir343]

100% agree with this. I have moved away from the ZWO eco-system and replaced ASIAir Pro with NINA which removes the lock-in and enables me to use products from other vendors like Pegasus. Have never looked back

[@sergekolesov3971]

Then they will lose a big market. I doubt it. )

[@Rfhuir343]

Don’t think anyone suggested that

[@philleng480]

The asiair is only a very basic control system. I would have thought if you are spending the money on an AM5 you would want something beyond the intro level the asiair provides. For anyone using apt/NINA/SGP etc the air would be a massive backwards step.

[@nolho]

Thanks, merci !

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

You are welcome!

[@woody5109]

ZWO makes a great product, runs flawlessly, I have zero interest in dragging my laptop outside in the cold again, just not doing it, lol.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

I only drag my laptop outside for videos haha

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

What are your thoughts and feedback on this? Agena Astro has the AM5 in stock! bit.ly/3BAS8x5 Support me on Patreon!: www.patreon.com/cuivlazygeek

[@IdWinger]

I’m looking at the Pegasus Nyx-101 mount for this reason (and for greater payload limits).

[@wildweedle6012]

I'm ascared of meridian flips.

[@Youtuber-ku4nk]

Astrophotographers, astrophotographers, astrophotographers, astrophotographers 😂

[@hael8680]

No doubt ASCOM was an afterthought. The AM5 was built from ground up for the zwo ecosystem.

[@ASC-Explore]

Meridian flip is handled badly by software and product developers. First of all, they can't agree if they want to use minutes or degrees. Everyone uses a different system Some applications depend on the mount to report side of pier correctly while some do not. It's all very frustrating for something that should really be simple.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Completely agree... I remember adding the "Use side of pier" option in NINA to take care of some weird behaved mounts...

[@garyschmelz6728]

So, what I am hearing is, two heads are not better than one? LOL 😂

[@DouglasBarnum]

I think avoiding Zwo is a good idea. They appear to be closing their systems.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

I wonder what their strategy end goal is - locking users in would allow them to raise prices on their cameras. It's brilliant

[@DouglasBarnum]

@@CuivTheLazyGeek is the asiair running open source indi drivers? Thought I read that but I could be wrong. I’m a lazy geek too. Lol. Anyway seems like they only include their drivers if so. I wonder if that is breaking any open source licensing. Either way certainly not really fair to indi driver authors.

[@DouglasBarnum]

@@CuivTheLazyGeek oh by the way I used Nina for the first time last night. Your videos will be very helpful thank you. I was running astroberry but the serial port on my Avx handset broke. I bought SkyPortal Wi-Fi dongle and the indi driver doesn’t work in EQ mode. Hence why I went to the extreme and installed windows. Lol. But I liked Nina and will stick with it.

[@PawanSingh-in4xx]

This hobby was based on all the hard work done by ASCOM and other many other open source software. Without these projects, we won’t have this hobby at all. ZWO and many companies have taken all the source code of these open source projects and built a better user interface layer and then are trying to close the system for their profits. For example, their guiding code for Asiair took all the phd code for free. For that reason, I would recommend not buying these closed source systems.

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Yeah I contributed to NINA because I love open source, and I currently manage my own open source smartwatch app... So I feel that as well.

[@robertw1871]

The ZWO ASCOM server is total trash, it makes the mount more of a toy than real gear… I sure hope they are working on it and not just coding for the AIR platform… We need a Green Swamp Server for the AM5…

[@Hilmi12]

ZWO doesn't care about Ascom, they want you stuck in their echo system

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

Sometimes it does feel that way, although they are improving the ASCOM driver

[@diogenes505]

And this is why I have no interest in astrophotography

[@CuivTheLazyGeek]

What you don't like pain?!

[@diogenes505]

I am a lazier, older, wiser geek.