I Need YOU to VOTE FOR....

[@chriswestern5854]

Neveryon sounds like it’s the one. Feeling it won’t be trash. Despite some of the subject matter

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Got it, one vote for Neveryon!

[@michaelk.vaughan8617]

Tower at the Edge of Time! Limitless fury!

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Duly noted Michael!

[@SleepyBookReader-666]

Neveryona! I can’t resist that back cover blurb! And I am really curious how Delaney approaches that material.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

And Neveryon continues to pull into the lead!

[@alexanderyefremov7204]

Almost 30 years ago, when I was in my teens, I discovered Samuel R. Delany’s novels: Babel-17, Nova and The Fall of the Towers. I was impressed… like, a lot. It was a new kind of stories: new ideas were presented, new type of protagonists introduced. These books became the staple for me. I re-read them a least a dozen times since then. Afterwards, I read almost every Delany’s fiction book, and though they were quite pleasant and thought-provoking, they didn’t leave a huge mark in my life. I still struggle to allocate enough time for Dhalgren. Last year I’ve read Nevèrÿon series. Either I’ve lost the ability to be greatly impressed or, with three more decades behind my back, my memory fails me, under of threat of torture I can’t remember what these books were about. Still, I do remember I enjoyed the books. It wasn’t a laborious read. It was like meeting an old friend after a long while and realizing your interests were somewhat diverged and there’re no real topics to discuss beside reminiscing about days of old. Anyway, I vote Delany.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

So sounds like one vote for Neveryon. And I did very much enjoy Babel 17! I also recorded a video on that book. But this will be my first foray into additional Delaney. Glad to hear your impression of Neveryon was positive!

[@douglasdea637]

Yeah, almost 30 years ago I tried Nova, it sounded interesting. It was alright but didn't rock my world. From it I don't see where the Delaney hype comes from.

[@GrangerMeador]

Tales of Neverÿon

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Duly noted!

[@ajaxplunkett5115]

Grammaticus , this is a cool idea! Hope you do this again.---- I own 4 books in the Neveryon series but never read any of them yet so.... ...I volunteer / Vote you to read Tales of Neveryon before me just in case . I heard Delaneys fantasy is a bit more sophisticated than standard Sword and Sorcery...

[@GrammaticusBooks]

One vote for Neveryon dutifully recorded!

[@RobAddie]

I'm going with The Tower Of Zanid. I like the cover and the theme reminds me of those old Andre Norton SF paperbacks I enjoyed as a kid. Whatever you choose to read, have a great weekend.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

One vote for Lin Carter and thank you sir!

[@ironjade]

"Search the Sky". C. M. Kornbluth wrote "The Marching Morons" which is one of those SF stories which is in danger of becoming reality. I recently read two of SRD's erotic outings, "Hogg" and "The Tides of Lust": I'm hoping for selective amnesia in the near future. What was he thinking?

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Here's to selective amnesia! And one vote for Search the Sky.

[@occultdetective]

DeCamp's The Tower of Zanid was utter trash. I read it last year. I think you should suffer my fate so I don't feel so alone. That's my vote. ;)

[@GrammaticusBooks]

How kind of you Bob!…. ahhg!

[@PeculiarNotions]

I'm aiming for kindness, so I vote for Dr. Who and the Underworld.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Thank you Seth!

[@ATPennington]

I’ve got quite a few Doctor Who books, several by Terrance Dicks, including the very pulpy, almost Lovecraftian ‘Horror of Fang Rock’, which I reviewed recently. I was going to read ‘The Horns of Nimon’ next, which is another Doctor Who/K9 adventure. As books, they’re good fun! Not great literature and clearly written with younger readers in mind, but if you like vintage Doctor Who then they definitely deliver. Most of the books are fairly slim too, so can be read in a day. I’d love to hear your thoughts on ‘Doctor Who and the Underworld’, but I have to vote for ‘Tales from Neveryon’. It’s always great to see more reviews for Delany’s work outside of people reviewing ‘Hogg’ for shock value.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Got it another vote for Neveryon...I think this one is going to win! And I believe I have Horror of Fang Rock around here somewhere....

[@TheBookGraveyard]

I'm digging the vibes on Slave Planet and as you know, my taste is pure class.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Slave planet it is BG! Hey do you ever go to Bell Book and Comics in Dayton?

[@TheBookGraveyard]

@@GrammaticusBooks Oh always! It's an 8 min walk from my house. I love that place.

[@AisleofMisfitBooks]

Great idea! I'm tempted to vote for Janifer just because I've never heard of him, but I'm going to have to go with Search the Sky. The Doctor Who books are actually pretty fun, IIRC. It's been 40 years, so...

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Got it one vote for Search the Sky!

[@arthurleighton2227]

I have to go with Search the Sky. Enjoyed reading Pohl's Man Plus back in the early 80s. Hopefully, it's a good collaboration with Kornbluth.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Duly notes Arthur!

[@kathykuecker]

I suggest Dr. Who, since I have never read any of them, and watched few of the television shows. I expected one of John Normans Gor books to show up on a trashy list.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

One vote for the Doctor and Terrance Dicks!

[@anotheruser9224]

I picked up Neveryona at a used book shop, two months ago. (I believe that Neveryona is a novel, whereas Tales from Neveryon is a books of short stories...) The only other book by Delaney that I have read is Babel-17. Neveryona was low in my current stack of books. I guess I'll move it up to the top next month.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

I’ll take that as a vote for Neveryon! And I did like Delaney’s Babel 17.

[@deronjohnson6224]

"Black Amazon of Mars." This is the most pulpy title I have ever encountered. However, it is better than it sounds.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

I'll have to keep an eye out for that one!

[@psychonaut5921]

Can't make my mind between Tales of Neveryon and Search the Sky... Never read either of them, they just seemed the more interesting of the lot. Have fun!

[@GrammaticusBooks]

I'll put it down as one vote for each Psychonaut!

[@chrislydon4684]

Tales of Neveryon! I don’t know if it’ll be trash but it’ll be something!

[@GrammaticusBooks]

It will be something! Duly noted.

[@StevenEverett7]

The Wonder War. I'm trying to be kind here Grammaticus. Although I haven't read that title I have read some others by Jannifer and remember them to be entertaining. To be honest though I was one of the people who recommended Nemesis of Evil last year because I remember enjoying it. 😁

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Got it Steven, Wonder War! And I won’t hold Nemesis against you!

[@CarlosErhart]

I'm gonna say Tales of Neveryon....mostly because i'm interested in reading it myself and would love to hear a review :)

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Neveryon it is!

[@LiminalSpaces03]

Tower at the Edge of Time!

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Good old Lin Carter!

[@smilerwithagun]

Neveryon sounds cool so I'll vote for that 👍

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Got it one vote for Neveryon!

[@StewedEarth]

I recently picked up a copy of Tales of Neveryone, so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that one.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Puttin you down as a vote for Neveryon.

[@DuncanFletcher-vn6ze]

Judge a book by its cover! My vote is for the one with the cover you like the most!

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Hmmm.....the best cover award has to go to Wonder War. Wonder War it is!

[@henrylopez3422]

My vote is for "Search the Sky," as I'm curious about what sort of story the minds of Pohl and Kornbluth can come up with collaboratively. As an aside, I'm sorry you didn't enjoy "Nemesis of Evil." Twelve-year-old me loved it and the other four books in the series.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Kornbluth and Pohl is a powerful team up! They could probably pull that one out!

[@entreprenerd1963]

I vote for _Search the Sky_ by Pohl and Kornbluth. _The Space Merchants_ is great, so I have high hopes that I'm not voting against your interest.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

One vote for Search the Sky.

[@johnmarsh5390]

I haven't read any of your 7 candidates, oddly. Delany might be interesting to hear about. I've read Dahlgren and Fall of the Towers. But my choice is Kornbluth and Pohl. Thanks!

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Kornbluth and Pohl are excellent choices!

[@timgerstmar6243]

A friend gifted me a copy of The Tower of Zanid years ago. He did so mostly as a joke. I have not read it, but it has since become legendary between us. As someone with a soft spot in their heart for trashy sci fi paperbacks, I’ve gotta see a review of that one. The Tower of Zanid.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Got it, one vote for Lin Carter and the Tower of Z!

[@vintagesf]

‘Search the Sky’ by Pohl and Kornbluth would be the one I’d choose. Not here to inflict brain pain.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Thank you for being merciful Richard!

[@tonyhunt768]

Go for the Samuel R Delany.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

A popular pick!

[@spartaguswoodall3062]

Tower at the Edge of Time

[@dianeanderson3335]

+1

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Another vote Lin The King of Trash Carter!

[@GregHarness]

I really like the Terrance Dicks Doctor Who books. He wrote and edited a bunch of the screenplays and then wrote many novelizations. I think his are the best Doctor Who tie-ins. And the Fourth Doctor was the best Doctor ever.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Agreed on the best Dr.! And one vote for Terrance Dicks!

[@ziff_1]

"This was a horrible book and it turned out to be a wasted weekend" well, shit. Now I have to read it.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

I'd love to hear your opinion on it Ziff!

[@nealbullington8301]

I find myself conflicted. What if I choose wrong and doom us all? Oh well, Tower of Zanid. (is that a tower made of Zanid? I hope not.)

[@GrammaticusBooks]

One vote for L. Sprague DeCamp Neal! I hope all is well in that State up North!

[@davidthegobmartin]

I was going to vote for The Wonder War but stopped, open-mouthed in disbelief when you pulled up the Doctor Who novelisation. How dare you sir! Only joking, I am not offended really, no, not really 🤔. I vote for Doctor Who as I would most like to hear your view on the novel and on Terrance Dicks. I have watched the episode many times and it is not one of the most exciting, but the book, as I remember it, was good. It is very short too, easy for a weekend, if not just a Saturday for you.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

I’m curious how the book reads as well. It may actually be decent!

[@jackreacher433]

Tower at the Edge of Time, though I was close to suggest The Tower of Zanid.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

One vote for Lin Carter!

[@BSA105]

I'll go with The Wonder War, though I'm not sure why.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Wonder War it is. And you don't need a reason BSA!

[@rickriffel6246]

You must read Tales of Neveryon, that one is the most modern of the books shown, the most full of potential, and a start of a series.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Got it, one vote for Neveryon!

[@rickcantrell5302]

I would hate to make you read another trashy book by Lin Carter, G. But - Lin Carter!

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Thanks Rick!

[@douglasdea637]

Fred Pohl is one of my favorite authors. But instead I'll vote for Wonder War. Because: why not? It might have something worthwhile. There was a period in the 80s where I read a bunch of those Doctor Who and Star Trek novels. Mostly a waste. At least the Star Trek novels were original tales and about 1 in 5 were worth reading.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Good info Douglas and noted one vote for Wonder War!

[@JamesA-b8p]

Dhalgren is a favorite of mine. Since its release (1975) I read it 3 times over the years. Anyway, my vote is with Tales of Neveryon.(1979). I read it years ago, don't remember much except it influenced a sex change to THAT sex which then inspired me to change my sex back to that OTHER sex. Is that trashy or what?

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Now that's commitment! And duly noted one vote for Neveryon!

[@OmnivorousReader]

I have never heard of Wasted Weekend - that is charming, though, TBH that sounds like many of my weekends. My vote is for TALES OF NEVERYON by Samuel R. Delany, because you can't go past a good sexual abandon and because I think I read that in my early teens, but have no memory of it. Whichever you end up with, happy reding and I look forward to the review!

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Got it one vote for Neveryon...which seems to be running away with it!

[@MysteryandMayhem-gr7nn]

My vote goes to Doctor Who, Grammaticus. Terrance Dicks is actually a pretty decent writer.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

I have heard that Jim! And thank you for voting for what's most likely a decent read!

[@User_Un_Friendly]

Grammaticus, I'm going to make a late recommendation to you. Harry Harrison's Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers. Protagonists use radioactive cheddar cheese to make an interstellar teleportation device. 😂🤣 (NO! I'm not making this up!) 😳 Its awesomely bad, funny and trashy. But oh so enjoyable. 🐶🐶🐶

[@GrammaticusBooks]

If I had it I would definitely read that User!

[@entreprenerd1963]

I see your _Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers_ and raise you _Bill the Galactic Hero_.

[@User_Un_Friendly]

@@entreprenerd1963 I see your Bill the Galactic Hero and raise you the Men from P.I.G and R.O.B.O.T. 😂🤣 (interstellar agents use genetically bred combat pigs and robots to solve crime. 🙄🙄🙄)

[@User_Un_Friendly]

@@entreprenerd1963 I see your Bill the Galactic Hero and raise you the Man from P.I.G. 😂🤣

[@jbrichardson8891]

gotta be limitless fury .....Tower at the Edge of Time

[@GrammaticusBooks]

one vote for Lin Carter!

[@carolmorgan174]

Tales of Neveryon!

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Gotchya down for one vote for Neveryon....which seems to be winning.

[@pennywise6672]

I've read and enjoyed (I'm not ashamed to admit it!) all those authors except for Janifer so my vote is for Wonder War, if only to learn about a new-to-me writer. Tell you a story about Dr. Who and Terrance Dicks. It disturbs me to this day. Spent a whole summer about 30 years ago reading all the Le Carre I could get my hands on. Figured I needed to cleanse the palate with something really trashy so I picked Dr. Who and The Loch Ness Monster by Dicks. The downgrade of writing was jarring but after a few chapters I'd acclimatized and lost myself in the story. I'm a huge classic Dr. Who fan but seriously? All that literate, sophisticated storytelling dismissed and replaced by the pulpiest of pulp fiction?

[@GrammaticusBooks]

That's what pulp fiction is for Pennywise! Glad you were able to lose yourself in the story and I've got you down as one vote for Wonder War.

[@stephennootens916]

I would go with Tales of Neveryon. If the the author has written books you like that are less trashy there is a good chance you will enjoy it. Also it sounds real trashy and fun.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Neveryon does sound Trashy! I'll be interested to see how Delaney (who usually does SF) handles fantasy.

[@LiamOBrien-m2q]

Guiltiest of Guilty Pleasures: HorseClan novels by Robert Adams (Bili The Axe might be the trashiest entry)

[@GrammaticusBooks]

I do have a couple of the Horse Clan novels around here somewhere!

[@isaganipalanca8803]

I've actually had the Neverÿon book since my teens in the late Seventies... Couldn't get past the first 20 pages each of the three times in the decades since I've attempted to read it - a suggestion - DHALGREN also by Delaney. I managed to get through to half... It has some fascinating forcedly enigmatic episodes and intriguingly unrelatable characters despite making no sense at all! Same with Pynchon's GRAVITY'S RAINBOW - which I would also recommend for a wasted weekend.... Never got past page 30 despite all the hoopla about it! What could be a glittering revelation of a long long novel would be Delaney's THE STARS IN YOUR POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND which is undoubtedly Delaney's masterpiece - still a timeless fourth read during the pandemic despite its origin in the early Eighties! Too bad he never got around to the sequel as the book ends with a cliffhanger begging to be resolved! it's like waiting for decades for the final books of David Gerrold's Chtorr series - THE STARS etc. is simply mind-bogglingly good with an embarassment of riches of ideas, literary and poetic legedemain and breathtaking prose that makes GOOD Delaney so great - nearly like LORD OF LIGHT. For a terminally exasperating read however, any book in E.E. Smith's irredeemable trashy Lensman series. So hilariously bad. After reading early on in my one and only Lensman acquisition about the author/narrator gushing over Lensman Kimball Kinnison's (as insanely cringeworthy a name for a main character as you can get) "tremendous brain" as he puts his "enormous booted feet" on an office desk in a starship called "Chicago", I tuned out of the entire series, then and there. Needless to say, my diverse gang of teen-aged mestizo (like me), Filipino, Indian and Chinese SF nerd classmates in Manila of the early Seventies all loved Lin Carter and the Lensman series, which I will never understand...

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Great comments Isangani as always! I did read and review Delaney’s Babel 17. It was very good!

[@isaganipalanca8803]

​@@GrammaticusBooks it's overrated, though it made Delaney a legend! The same goes for Einstein Intersection, also a Nebula Award winner, but that was because Delaney was a darling of the SF scene in those days and they were throwing awards at him! Inly his works of short ficxtion "Aye, and Gomorrha" and "Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones! (How's that for a terminally poetic thesis title?), poetic masterpieces, truly deserved the awards and then some. His Towers of Toron trilogy was much better! Also an underrated gem! Weirdly enough, it was only in the early Eighties in Germany, when a German friend who introduced me to god-kike William Gibson's Neuromancer and Burning Chrome anthology, that I actually learned that Delaney was a POC and openly gay. which explained a lot of what made his works avantgard and uncompromising! As a young prodigy, he apparently could get away with anything! Quite inspirational for me, who have defaulted to gay most of my lige, but have settled on a more apt non-binary and use the pronouns they/them in my old age! It was easier for me to live openly in tolerant Germany than in Catholic Philippines, so it was a good thing for me that my family moved to Switzeland, then to Germany, though I thoroughly miss the Philippines of my fabulous childhood and teen years and consider myself Filipino-German.

[@isaganipalanca8803]

@@GrammaticusBooks I'll watch your review! it will be nice to revisit Babel-17 through another person's eyes. I also had to read it in German before I finally got the English paperback. It did not translate well into German... I prefer reading in English, my first language.

[@anotherbibliophilereads]

I have to vote got Delany even though it isn’t trashy.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

A popular vote! I think Neveryon is going to win this one...

[@JohnM-cd4ou]

For the wasted weekend I'm split between "Conan the rebel" or "the crystal star", the latter apparently being the worst star wars EU novel ever

[@GrammaticusBooks]

In that case it has to be Crystal Star!

[@fionam3554]

The New York Herald? That is OLD.... I'd say the Delany, unless you want to try a parody, Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers, by Harry Harrison.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Ok, one vote for Delany Fionam!

[@marjoriedonnett5467]

I haven't read trash since my late teens. I've never read Lin Carter, and I don't think I could. Even many good writers write a bad once in their career. Tower at the Edge of Time sounds awful, so I'd vote for that one. I have a western I bought from Walmart by an author I never heard of for Wasted Weekend. It sounds ridiculous (actually, they all do). I had originally bought it for June on the Range, but I have about 20 for the month and can't read them all.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

One vote for Mr Carter! ….oh boy.

[@markschmidtz]

Got to go with Slave Planet haha

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Doh!

[@jack_yo]

I vote for Doctor Who.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Got it, one vote for Dr. Who and Terrance Dicks!

[@alancarr7718]

Good afternoon Grammaticus Doctor Who is Never trash kin any time period , Frederick Pohl and C M Kornbluth are far too esteemed. Samuel R Delaney was never a trash writer. Go with one of the Pyramid books they were always delicious trash. Although Laurence Janifer had a well respected career. Better pick on L Sprauge, Lin carter had a turn last year! Cheers Al TheGoldKeyFourColorkidownunda

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Gotchya, so I'm going to take that as a vote for Tower of Zanid!

[@alancarr7718]

​Good Evening Grammaticus A splendid idea, but you could read all seven and have a great time. I watched your chat with Vintage SF, your start into the genre was similar to mine. Greek Mythology was the best introduction you could have. Alas I don't have a copy of the Tower of Zanid!

[@BohemianPaul]

Doctor Who

[@GrammaticusBooks]

I like it!

[@deeebeee1758]

Samuel R Delaney has his... um... thing... but he can't be blamed for the crimes of the copywriter blurbing him. It even promises that it won't be boring - Neveryon (never yawn). The Dr Who books by Dicks are actually pretty good as I recall. There are so many terrible series with trashy entries. You gotta get you some Longarm westerns. I vote for The Tower of Zanid. No writer is as cloth-eared and dull as L Sprague DeCamp. Sorry, man. Enjoy!

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Ugh…L. Sprague de Camp it is!

[@deeebeee1758]

@@GrammaticusBooks 😆

[@jamesonpace726]

I will not help you hurt yourself. I have always wondered who these skinny, silly books were for & I still don't know....

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Thank you sir!

[@jamesabbiati5775]

Neveryon! Zanid is book 4 of a series...I'd skip that one.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Vote recorded and believe me I didn’t need any additional info to skip Zanid!

[@jamesabbiati5775]

@@GrammaticusBooks I bought Zanid at my local used book store...then had to search out the previous entries. All waiting for a trash binge!

[@MuleFace100]

I like the idea of Delany writing a schlocky fantasy, so my vote goes to Tales of Neveryon.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

One vote for Neveryon! Im actually kinda intrigued by this one as well.

[@kallianpublico7517]

Anything by Tanith Lee is trash.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Did I put a Tabitha Lee book in there?

[@kallianpublico7517]

@ No.

[@DDB168]

Gee they all look pretty lame 🤭 I'll vote for Delany.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Gotchya Neveryon!

[@MusicMike939]

I love Lin Carter. He has turned me onto more writers of fantasy than any other. Your just being mean here. Those are not his best. But tower at the end of time is ok. Tower of Zanid also good. By De Camp A bad Lin Carter? Try Tara of the Twilight. Trashy x 10. How about some Piers Anthony? (Self-proclaimed worlds most successful fantasy writer) he took trash to new levels. Bad authors would be joe haldeman. Ordson Card, stephen donaldson. Stephen king. But they are just bad writers not trashy. Real trash? John Norman. Slave girls of gor books. As a teenager, i liked. But once i realized that every page had the word slave girl, i stopped reading. Right now i have been inspired to read some original reh and erb. Modern writers are not doing it for me anymore.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Ok so I’m going to record that as one vote for Lin Carter? I did enjoy his Green Star series.

[@paulbigbee]

_Tales of Neveryon_ as an early progenitor of the romantasy sub-sub-genre. Runner-up has to be _Slave Planet_ …sorry G, but I just enjoy your rants about craptastic reads too much!

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Here's hoping Neveryon surprises me!

[@MusicMike939]

I love Lin Carter. He has turned me onto more writers of fantasy than any other. Your just being mean here. Those are not his best. But tower at the end of time is ok. Tower of Zanid also good. By De Camp A bad Lin Carter? Try Tara of the Twilight. Trashy x 10. How about some Piers Anthony? (Self-proclaimed worlds most successful fantasy writer) he took trash to new levels. Bad authors would be joe haldeman. Ordson Card, stephen donaldson. Stephen king. But they are just bad writers not trashy. Real trash? John Norman. Slave girls of gor books. As a teenager, i liked. But once i realized that every page had the word slave girl, i stopped reading. Right now i have been inspired to read some original reh and erb. Modern writers are not doing it for me anymore. Another thing. Just kidding here. But if you say trashy, it must have a sexual element. To me bad books are bad. Rosemary Rodgers. That is trash. And bad. 😝

[@GrammaticusBooks]

I’m going to take that as a vote for Mr Carter. And trashy doesn’t necessarily mean bad….although it might!

[@woolybooger7770]

Tower at the Edge of Time! Lin Carter for the Loss. Actually I enjoyed a lot of his books back in the 70s but his role as an editor expanded my horizons substantially.

[@GrammaticusBooks]

Gotchya, Lin Carter. And he actually does have some good novels! Trashy doesn't always mean bad!