I saw it on YouTube! Earthing, Bonding, Ungrounded solution. IT-Earthing system in your home?

[@Cptnbond]

Thank you, Roland., for an excellent episode. Truly understanding what you are doing should be a goal for every DIY, even before trying any complex and rather dangerous work. If you are uncertain, a qualified electrician should be consulted, as you have often said. By the way, I love your hand drawings - they are clear and emphasize your explanations. Cheers.

[@MultiOutdoorman]

I've shared a link to your guidance where other youtubers have confidently spouted incorrect information. One guy said that most inverters where rubbish because the RCD didn't trip. He clearly did NOT understand NE bonding upstream. Found myself explaining the PME system and grid combined N/E bonding at the source. Glad you shared your knowledge. Thanks. Respect !

[@finnskellig7422]

Hi Roland, I Just found your channel and you truly are a lifesaver, We just bought a small off grid house running of a small pure sinewave inverter and when I looked behind the switch board it is exactly wire like in this video, It looked wrong to me and I found your easy to follow explanations very helpful. Cheers Mate keep up the good work

[@imag555]

thank you very much! i have being looking for answers on how to wire my load center , your explanation and your concern about human safety is key . two thumbs up Roland you are saving lives.

[@LonesomeElk]

Thank you, Roland! I appreciate the time you give.

[@lukefarmer5391]

This was such a great video! It was exactly what I needed to answer my questions on this very issue you have shown in your other videos and the case study. I completely agree that if you are going to put out a video as the case study did that it is safe. I am installing a off grid system at work and i have to make sure it is done correctly because it would not be just me that would get hurt or killed it could be another employee. You explained it very clearly and and with great style. Thank you .

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

Complex systems need to be properly build up, and earthing is part of it. Thanks for watching and commenting!

[@MEHColeman]

Great video - thanks for explaining so thoroughly and eloquently

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

Thank you!

[@michaelcostello6991]

Great lesson.

[@herbertvonsauerkrautunterh2513]

Yes, pay bag in Thailand. I had to run an earth at the house there as i was getting shocks from the metal case of my PC

[@vt20247]

Thx for making the video. I appreciated the details!

[@offgridwanabe]

Thank you I hope people see this video to help them understand the path of electricity.

[@technretro7115]

Great video. Very helpful and informative. I have been testing a hybrid system in a small house in the UK now for 7 months and have decided to upgrade my 24v system with a 11kwh home made lifepo4 battery, 2.4kw/3kva inverter with seperate charge controller to a 48v system. Battery is being upgraded to just under 20kwh depending on my charge level. I have bought a Chinese EASun 5.6kw hybrid inverter which I plan to parallel in the future to two inverters but although all these Chinese inverters have very similar management software built-in, this one had the option for earth neutral bonding in its menu. Turned off by default. You are right about the basic manuals supplied. You have to read between the lines to work out the settings. I am feeding the line to it from the mains supply in the house but have a seperate distribution system for the house from the inverter were I was planning to bond the the E-N, not in the inverter. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

[@centerrightproudamerican5727]

At least in the US, there are TWO purposes to the earthing/grounding system. 1) Safety (help prevent shocking and fires) 2) Equipment protection from large voltage potential between the power circuit and earth. The grounding schemes throughout the world have evolved over time as they learned more about electrocution, fire, and equipment protection issues. Very early on, when electrical systems were first being built out, they found that if they let the system float and not ground it, there would be equipment damage over time. When they grounded the circuit, the equipment lasted longer, but it created a safety issue because the earth became a path the could electrocute someone. To deal with this they came up with bonding systems and equipment grounding conductors. Here in the US, they originally did not require the Equipment Grounding Conductor (grounding wire) throughout the house, and shorts to non-current carrying cases or other metal were quite dangerous. That is why they added requirements that the equipment grounding conductor is run everywhere a hot wire goes and to ground all exposed metal. (This includes things like light fixtures in the ceiling) With that set up and the NG bond, all shorts to metal cases would immediately clear the fault by popping the breaker (or in the old days, blowing a fuse). This greatly reduced the chance of electrocution but it did not cover the case of someone directly touching a hot wire. This all predated RCD/GFCI circuitry that could detect ground current and or Hot-Neutral differential current. (Just as an aside, the advent of the polarized plug in the united states was primarily due to the Edison screw-in light socket. By polarizing the plug, it ensured the hot wire was on the contact point at the bottom of the socket that is harder to accidentally touch and the neutral was on the threaded portion that is easy to touch). Fast forward to more modern times: In addition to all the grounding requirements that pre-dated GFCI technology (And works reasonably well), the US code is starting to require RCD/GFCI in more and more places (but does not require the whole structure to be on RCD/GFCI). They started in 'wet' places like kitchens, bathrooms, and outdoors. I think I read they are requiring them in bedrooms now too.... but that might only be arc-fault protection. They do not yet require GFCI/RCD in things like ceiling light fixture circuits. The NEC changes rules based on actual issues that are occurring and reported in the real world. I am relatively certain that if there were even a few cases of problems on a type of circuit (like light fixtures) they will start requiring GFCI/RCD for those circuits as well.

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

Thanks for the great insights for the situation in the US! It's of course an universal issue. And for me it is a sort of trying to find a common ground for all the regions of the world, to make people understand the basic problems and how they might have to tackle those, if they come up with a small DIY system and stay safe. Unfortunately as you know already, even small amounts of current can kill if people cannot escape after coming into an active circuit.

[@jonlittle3745]

Excellent information sir

[@johnbrzezinski1446]

Thanks for this informative, well explained and critical video. There is so much to learn ...

[@leonclose7823]

Thanks for taking the time to make this.

[@joryclouthier]

Playback to 1.25 or 1.5 you're welcome Great video by the way, on a off grid system this is great resource!

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

Thank you

[@ovieoyegwa6153]

This is deep explanation

[@gayanx86]

I watched his video and when I saw it, it immediately reminded me of your videos 🙂

[@nevillebernard29]

Grate and Excellent

[@ajantharoshan6711]

Thank you sir, nice explanation.

[@tonybrook5316]

Hello Roland Firstly a very informative video, which I hope Will put a lot of people on the right path to creating a safe working system. However I have two points I would like your opinion on .. Firstly on small off grid systems is it not good practice to make all earthing connections i.e. .. earth rod and E - N connections at source, the out put of the inverter? Secondly if you have a secondary power supply (generator with its own earth rod) that is connected to the same inverter with a bypass switch, will this create issues with the systems earthing/ bonding?

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

Hi Tony, the definition of point of source can be seen a bit broader in respect to the pure off-grid system, because you do have all components and devices within close distance anyways. It is not necessarily the inverter terminal as the closest point to the power source where you could do the grounding, it would in my opinion still be the best place to use the main panel for that matter and bring all connections to the PE-bar there. Rod, Inverter Ground, equipment bonding but also alternate power sources like a gas generator. And finally, the N-G bond there too. So, the answer to the second question is to not ground the generator directly at its place, but do it inside the main panel on the same grounding rod you have for it there. Be aware that everything before the panel represents a TN-C system and is protected by over current devices only, make solid connections on the Neutral wires to avoid an open Neutral fault. And from your panel use standard installation procedures for your country. So, use an RCD in the panel or GFCIs as receptacles.

[@tonybrook5316]

Hello Roland, THANK you for your reply. I began the installation today of a pre-assembled solar system, when I removed the cover from the AC out side of the inverter I found that there is a factory fitted bond between the neutral bar and the earth bar along with an mcb for over currant protection .. interesting . Could this be fitted to prevent it being over looked by an installer?

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

@@tonybrook5316 it is good when an inverter manufacturer is making it on an easy to see spot and not somewhere inside the device on the power board. The bond is, as you already know, necessary and if someone would just want to use that inverter with a few simple circuits connected, it would be just fine to do it like that. I would just remove the original bond, check if there is no further low resistance measured between N and G terminal and then just do everything in the main panel where you will connect the other devices and circuits. Can I ask in which country or electrical system you are living in?

[@tonybrook5316]

Hello Roland, I am from the UK but currently living in Spain. Just for information the system I am currently working on is an Outback flex max one which came as a pre-assambled unit.

[@jonaskavhura]

Good day Mr. Roland, I have another question about grounding and N-E Bonding. I have two scenarios, both involve two power sources( Inverter, Generator and/ Grid). 1st Scenario: Lets say I have an off grid solar PV system in a remote area without grid access. the system is simply grounded using a TN system. Now I plan to use a generator during cloudy days, the generator is going to be wired to the AC input of the inverter. The question is, how do I ground this system without causing some sort of ground loop? Is there anything I need in order to isolate one grounding system from the other? 2nd Scenario: In this scenario, I have a small PV system with a relatively small inverter (lets say 5kw and below), I plan to connect the grid to this inverter and use it as a UPS system. The grid will power the house and the battery will serve as a backup when the grid goes down. Occasionally, I would disconnect the grid manually to utilize the off grid capabilities of the system and save electricity in some way. How do I ground this kind of system? The reason I would like to know about this is because I would like to do the same. An off grid system in a rural area that has no grid coverage, but would like to use a generator during cloudy days and a UPS system in an urban area that can also be powered off grid. The grid in our country is very unreliable and can go off at any time without any form of warning. I have been researching about PV systems for a while now because I would like to do it myself to save money. Thanks in advance!!!

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

Hi Jonas. In scenario 1 it is very simple. You connect all Grounds (Inverter, Generator, your installation) to the same Grounding terminal in your first main distribution box, and that PE terminal to one single grounding rod. Make your bond there, etc. Just use a transfer switch for L and N to separate Inverter from Generator source, so that you can choose either of the sources, without interfering with the other. You are essentially using a TN-S system that way. Scenario 2 is the more troublesome one, as you need to know how your Grid provides you with Ground. Is it a TN-C-S or maybe a TT system? A TT system would actually not allow you to use the bypass as UPS as it would connect your separated Grounding with whatever comes from the Grid. In a TN-C-S grid, you can connect your Inverter PE to a common terminal in your main distribution box, connect to an auxiliary rod and do the N-G bond as shown in my videos, because G-N is already bonded in the Grid too. I am planning to make a video soon, which is explaining a method for installation for countries with unreliable Grid. Maybe you can get some hints from there then. Otherwise please look into the video of "practical guidance for installation in different Earthing systems" if you haven't seen it yet. It is talking about those UPS type inverters and you can get an idea there.

[@jonaskavhura]

@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore Thank you very much!! I am learning as much as I can so I do the right thing. I will check out your other videos, Looking forward to your upcoming videos!

[@deonmo1963]

If the subject of mains power is discussed, the point of view must always be clarified in terms of geographical area and whether the discussion is regarded to 220V and 110V areas. In South Africa we have a 220V electrical system, where the N E bonding is done at the Utility distribution station. N E bonding is not allowed at the consumer except for consumers with high power 3phase supply where N E bonding takes place at consumer connection point usually in the meter box. It is my opinion that if an alternative power source is installed at the consumer then the connection of that power source must emulate the utility connections such that if L N are both disconnected from the utility supply by means of changes over switch or mechanism the alternative supply unit must then have a N E bonding inside alternative supply device (Inverter or generator).

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

Hi. yes, that's actually what I am trying to do with the videos on my channel. Prevent people of just connecting a power source to their installation and make it grid interactive without checking what grid type they are in or just assume that they did something improving their safety while just the opposite might have happened. Other countries, other regulation. That's why background knowledge is key. Not every answer will be found in a single video. Thanks for commenting!

[@vascoazevedoesilva9026]

Great vídeos!! Thanks a lot!!! I’ve learned a lot!! I’m intending to follow your instructions for TN-S grounding in my off grid system. But a have the following doubt: In my Studer XP-C inverter in AC out L and PE mesures 226 V the same as L and N. N and PE zero. Can install earth rod and bond in RCD as you show in your videos?

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

looks like your inverter is internally bonded. you only need to connect the PE terminal to the rod/PE bar and just go staight to the RCD with L and N...

[@vascoazevedoesilva9026]

@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore thanks again In the manual instructions they say: The neutral of the appliance is not connected to the the earth whatever the function mode is. If requested and according to local regulation, an automatic connection between N and earth in inverter mode only may be done by installing a bridge internally to the unit.

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

@@vascoazevedoesilva9026 ok. after you have finished your installation just check RCD operation by a socket tester (not test button on RCD). then you will see if there is a bond. else just make a bond as in my video. thx

[@vascoazevedoesilva9026]

@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore thanks a lot

[@adon8672]

Excellent video. I thought the PE in his sub-panel is connected to the PE in the main panel which will ultimately be connected to a ground rod. I always find the American split phase system very confusing though.

[@jimmaxwell2259]

Just looking for clarification...on the better quality inverter/chargers(victron multiplus for example) there is a Neutral/Earth bonding relay, such that, when grid connected it uses the existing house earthing system, however, when not connected to grid, the relay kicks in and provides an instant neutral/earth bond thus so long as there is a earthing cable from the main panel to the inverter earthing point, this allows the proper functioning of the RCD system....ie it provides an earthing path from the appliance to the main panel and then to the inverter neutral/earth bonding(the power source). Do i have this correct? Thanks

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

that is correct

[@jimmaxwell2259]

Many thanks@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore

[@jimmaxwell2259]

​@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore I have been watching more of your videos on earthing systems and have more questions, if you dont mind. In my scenario discussed above, when the system is operating with inverter/battery only, all TNC-S connection has been dropped, ie you are depending on the Neutral/Earth bond relay on the inverter, what would this be called? Is it a 'floating earth' or TT or something else? Would this be safe enough with multiple circuits being fed, or should a earthing rod be added on site? If so, should the earthing rod be bonded only to the inverter earthing point or to the load centre/consumer unit. I have read some information about ground loops and do not wish to fall foul of these type problems. If i bond the earth rod to the load centre/consumer unit, then when i am grid powered, i would have a TNC-S connection plus an earth rod connection, ie potential for a ground loop scenario? If a ground electrode/earth is needed offgrid, should this only be added to the inverter earthing point? Thanks for any opinion offered. Regards

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

@@jimmaxwell2259 hi. if you want to take advantage of the bonding relay, then as we are talking about a house installation, you would aim for a TN-S setup provided by your inverter while you are in battery mode. So yes, you would need a rod which is connected to the inverters ground/load panel ground. that rod is acting as an auxiliary earthing point in the TN-CS supply for the grid as well which is legit as the fault current in case of bypass to grid, will return on the wire anyways. But in off-grid/battery mode, the rod will provide earth reference and keep the Neutral in your house as neutral. without a rod you would create an IT system while in battery mode. IT is not recommended in house installations. But the main advantage of bonding relays inside inverters is to deal with TT grid supply.

[@jimmaxwell2259]

@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore Brilliant mate. Now it becomes clear. Thank you so much for your help.

[@stanleyplank]

I have a small off grid solar setup in a garage.....4 panels total of 700w going into a charge controller and a battery. I run a small victron 500 watt inverter of it. Both of the charge controller and the inverter have a PE connection. Should I have an earth cable going to these and if so, where should it be earthed to? I've watched loads of videos on this and so far, all I've found is heaps of conflicting opinions and no answer. It sounds like quite a simple question. I am in the UK. Thanks

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

Hi. Do you have a source of Earth in your garage? Let's start with the charge controllers PE. Typically we do not earth power lines within the DC system. The reason why the charge controller will have a PE terminal is that its casing might be conductive and should be equipment grounded. But I guess your system is anyways a 12V, so dangerous voltages are no issue. The charge controller will probably have its own surge protection built in. You would find some blue disc shaped components right next to the DC in if you would look inside the device. Those thyristors need a source of earth to work, as surges need to be drained to Earth. If you are using external SPDs you could technically save the connection of PE to your charge controller... The inverters PE terminal does have the same two functions. Equipment grounding and internal SPDs. But for the AC output you now have another extra choice of what to do with PE. And that is if you want to also bond Neutral to PE and create a TN system. But this will mostly depend on how you are using that inverter in your garage. Is it installed to a breaker box where you want to use a RCD and a few circuits, or do you just plug in a single device from time to time. For the second case you can just run your output as an isolated circuit and no bonding of N-PE is needed. So yes. Connect every PE terminal to a real source of PE. It can be the earthing system of your house or you can drive a separate rod into the ground directly at your garage. Cheers.

[@shmayazuggot8558]

Using exactly as you have in this last diagram at 33 minutes, Is there any downside to bonding Ground and Neutral by connecting the busbars together instead of jumping earth into the RCD with neutral? The PE busbar has zero volt reference and balances perfectly between HOT-Live and Hot_Neutral, wouldn’t the inbalalance still be detected by the RCD/RCBO on the Neutral wire?

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

You can connect the PE and N-bars directly if you are in US and use GFCI sockets, because then you RCDs are after the bond. Then you don't have the RCD in the panel. But if you live in the 230V world, you have to leave away the RCD. RCDs will trip when they are bonded down-streams, or they do not react at ground leakages at all. Thus you would only be protected for ground faults inside the installation through the breakers (which wouldn't trip too, as the inverters high current detection would trigger first). As well there would be no leakage protection against humans coming into a ground circuit. So you would be better off to leave the grounding rod away too and we are just ending up with an isolated system again, which would be not recommended if you are using the inverter to supply a house with multiple circuits and connected appliances... The diagram which I am showing is best practice ;)

[@shmayazuggot8558]

@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore I have another RCD downstream and the RCD test button trips the circuit, hmmmm. I'll remove the bond from the bars and do it as you suggested. Thanks again, I really appreciate you sharing this knowledge.

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

@@shmayazuggot8558 the RCD test button tests the RCD internal function NOT the correct function inside a circuit!

[@shmayazuggot8558]

@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMoreIt’s within acceptable range though I am curious why I now have .040 volts between PE & N bars. My Inverters AC out (Must Power) has no PE though I connected the chassis grounding stud to PE bar and it is energized between Earth and Hot/Live. The PE bar is connected to a grounding ROD I placed outside 1/2 meter into the ground. I checked all connections. It shifts between .039 and .040 over a 10 minute recording. The difference between PE and N is sightly higher downstream (.240 volts) on all the AC outlets though Earth to live and Neutral to live equate to the difference….

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

@@shmayazuggot8558 as N and PE are separated inside the installation, there is of course voltage difference building up from the place of bonding until the furthers point away of it. But that is normal as wires do have resistance and so there must be a current dependent voltage difference from one end to the other. If the voltage difference is more then 1-2V, then it would be unusualy high. A few millivolts are no concern at all :)

[@Malburn]

Thank you for this potentially live saving information. I have a Wzrelb 3000w inverter, this type has the main 240v output voltage, split between the neutral and live connections of the inverter, 120v +120v. If I earth bond as shown in your diagram, would there be any possibly of damaging the inverter? I have asked the manufacturer, but so far no answers.

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

hi. It's pretty common for these inverters to kind of split the voltages to half when they are not bonded to ground. Expect no problemswhen bonding as its a normal procedure which doesn'tcause any current to flow.

[@Malburn]

@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore Thank you so much for the advice, it’s appreciated a lot 🙂 Your videos are excellent!

[@techthinkology6641]

Great informative video. If this is a portable inverter (in a car). Would an rcbo be enough for protection or just to avoid any class 1 devices altogether?

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

in cars, RVs, etc where you would be isolated from ground, its better to use class 2 devices and keep isolation as well inside the vehicle. RCDs, RCBOs don't work without ground reference.

[@techthinkology6641]

Understood...thank you

[@jasonvickery9256]

hello sir Roland. I have a question. if you make a bonding wire from the earthing bus bar to the input of the rcd breaker and the neutral wire from the inverter is also connected to the input of the rcd breaker it seems like you are inadvertently connecting earth and neutral. can you explain to me why this is not the case or why it does not matter in that part of the circuit please? I enjoy learning from you and i have my own off grid system with the same sinopoly cells as you on a smaller scale and I would like to add more safety now. thank you very much.

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

Hi Jason, Neutral in an electric system with Earthing, is a child of Earth! The bonding wire has two applications. One is to define Neutral as potential of Earth, and second is to provide the return path from the PE circuit to to inverter for the fault current. There is no internal bonding in the inverter, so that's why it needs to be done outside. Neutral-Earth bonding can only be done before a RCD, as if you would do it after, the RCD would see a short from active circuit to protective circuit and trip.

[@jasonvickery9256]

@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore thank you . I will set it up as you have shown.

[@med687]

Hello Roland, I really appreciate your work, I would like you to help me with my earthing problem in my house in Sierra Leone in west Africa. It’s a TT system and I have my own earthing rod installed, but when I use socket tester, still get error, I’ve checked everything over and over again to see if there is a loose connection or missing wire, everything is securely connected correctly, so during my research to find the problem, I came across your channel and I must say that I really enjoyed watching it. I’ve a consumer unit with RCD installed and when I press the test button, it tripped and that means it’s working, but when I use the socket tester I’m getting error, do I need to bond the RCD neutral to the earth bar? I would really appreciate your help please. I’m going to install my off grid soon . Thank you once again for sharing your knowledge and experience with us

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

Hello Mohamed. First of all, thanks for watching my videos! TT-Systems can be a bit tricky, especially when tested with a socket tester. You said your grid supply is TT. So, you cannot really bond your Ground to the grid Neutral, even it would most probably solve your problem. You could only do that if you are the only house connected to your transformer. I assume that you have done the test with a correct LED indication on the tester as it is important to have L and PE on the correct pins of the tester. As well I assume that your RCD is a 30mA type and the sockt tester is 30mA as well (not a 5mA GFCI version). A socket tester is set for testing a TN type of grid supply by an internal resistor which will cause around 30mA of fault current to flow when pressing the test button. But in a TT earthing setup you would have to consider the additional impedance from the earthing rod. That additional resistance might reduce the fault current caused by the tester to a point where the RCD will not trip anymore! Usually rod-to-ground impedance in a TT system will be somewhere around 100-500 Ohms depending on soil condition. Very dry soil will cause higher impedance. As well your own rod must be suitable to reach low impedance values. It should be 2-3m long to reach compacted, moist soil. Of course, you could let an electrician run an earthing impedance check (if they are doing something like it there). There are also two ways you could test your earthing system. One would be to replace the testers' leakage resistor (that is the big ~1,5k Ohm one on the circuit board) with a lower resistance one to account for the higher loop impedance. The second way is brute force, but to simply use a well-insulated wire and just hold it momentarily between L and PE of a socket and cause a short against ground. The RCD must trip instantaneously! But anyways, if you are planning to go off-grid as you said, then all this will not matter as then you will just bond N-G and will have a perfectly sound installation. Let me know about your progress. All the best, greetings, Roland

[@merlinkucklick9246]

Thanks for your video, is he not mentioning that he connects to ground via grid ac-in ( which should include a true earth ground) although in the 2nd linked video I can not see a grid ac-in… Would the true earth provided by grid ac-in be a good idea or would you rather ground a hybrid system extra to true earth? Thanks for sharing your knowledge

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

Connecting the AC-in Ground will give you initially Equipment Grounding. So, your inverter case will be grounded. Now thar depends if the inverter is internally bonded what happens at your output. It can be OK to use the ground from grid at the output, but it can also be problematic if there is a N-G bond at your AC source. That highly depends on your grid type earthing system. I prefer when inverters are not bonded internally, and when this is done at the output panel as required.

[@momenphone]

Hi Roland, i have growatt spf500es chinnes inverter that has (ac input L,N that i connected them to my grid and ac output L,N connected to my home main panel). I have 2 pe pole at my inverter one at ac input and another one at ac output and i connecting them all to pe busbar then i connected the busbar to a grounding rode i made outside my home. But the weired thing that when i connecting my inverter to my grid L,N then the grid meter showing alarm and the alarm disappear if my home load go above 1kw but if its less than 1kw the grid meter alarm lighting. I was wondering about this alarm so i tried to connect my grid lines directly to my home panel then the alarm disappeared and the issue fixed, then i connected my grid to my inverter again but i disconnected my home panel , i mean just two wires L,N from grid connected to my inverter ac input L,N and i disconnected the grounding system but again the alarm showing at grid meter 😑 I know that the grid meter alarm lighting when there is an issue at neutral or a leakage current happened at neutral so the backed current not equal the going current so the alarm showing but my connection is simple just a grid to inverter connection showing this alarm at grid meter. While i was searching to fix my issue i found your usefull channel and i discovered that i am not bonding my ground to my neutral and because of that i connected the grid neutral before the mcb to my ground busbar so i made a bonding at grid neutral before it reached the inverter. After i made this bonding i checked my grounding rode then i discoverd a low current 0.2A going to grounding so my bonding making a leakage current to my ground and i dont know why so i disconnect the bonding now

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

Hi, so yes. If I understand this right, your meter is showing leakage. Ad similar to an RCD, you cannot bond N and PE after an RCD, otherwise it would trip. What you need to be sure, is your Grid-system. If it is a TN-C-S or a TT. In the TN-C-S you can bond behind the inverter, but in the TT-system you cannot. I think you might have a TT system. Does your house have a Earth-rod for the normal electricity and no PE wire coming into your panel from the grid side? I think my video about inverter use in different Earthing systems, might help you better. But it might be necessary to unbond when in bypass mode, while bonding only when you are in offgrid mode. Your Growatt probably will not have an internal bonding relay to do that.

[@momenphone]

@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore thank you for your reply, and yes i have just two wires from my grid red for phase and black for neutral and i made earthing system and a rode in the ground after i built my solar system and now i am connecting my solar frame structure to that earthing rode also i am connecting my inverter ground pole at ac input and ac output to the same rode. But my question why my grid meter showing alert after i connecting my inverter to it?? I removed all bonding and i disconnected the earthing wires fron my inverter and i am just using phase and neutral from the grid connected to my inverter ac input and after i connect it immediatly my grid meter alert lighting. So does my grid meter smart enought to detect the inverter or the inverter putting any voltage at neutral or reversing current and because of that my grid meter alert lighting ???

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

@@momenphone there is no reason to detect leakage if there is no connection to ground and no N-PE bond anywhere. Does your inverter export unused energy to the grid? Maybe that is what the smart meter is seeing.

[@momenphone]

@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore no my growatt spf5000es not exporting energy to grid at all and i disconnect every thing just i kept the inverter and my grid meter and the grid meter alerting when connecting the inverter to it, even when i disconnect the load from the inverter. My grid meter model is holley meter. and another notice when i connected inverter ac output to my home panel the grid meter alerting disappear if i take a load from the grid more that 1kwh and if my load is less that 1kwh from the grid the grid alert will still lighting so at daytime my load from the grid is very low so its lighting all the daytime and at night when i my inverter will use the grid to power my home the alert disappeard if i turned on air condition or water heater. But the weired thing when i disconnected the inverter and taked grid phase and neutral directly to my home panel no alert appearing even if my home load is very low. So i am sure my holley grid meter can detect my inverter but i dont know logically how or this growatt chinese inverter doing something or modifing the grid neutral or modifing grid phase and neutral and make them unbalanced but i dont know how or how i can determine the issue to fix it. I called my grid company and they told me this alert 90% related to grid neutral but i dont know what the inverter doing to grid neutral so i dont know if you have any suggestion or from where i must start to check and how

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

@@momenphone do you have a battery connected? So when you only connect inverter to grid but no load, is it charging battery? Or nothing at all?

[@Itisme38]

I have a 3000watt SineWave inverter that works pretty good but doesn't allow neutral and inverter ground to be bonded...is there anyway to ground that system...in the picture it shows l to l, and n to N, but out of the inverter, ground is just showing to ground it and not even connect to ac outlet Have u seen this before or is this just a cheap inverter

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

As I wrote in my other reply, grounding as PE only, does give you a basic safety, if the fault voltage occuring on a grounded shell can be kept under the safe touching voltage of 65V. But without a N-G bond, those L-PE faults would not cause fault current to go back the the power source, aka inverter, and not trip any breakers. Maybe the missing current is enough to trip an RCD as described in my video, but that would highly depend on the fault condition. So the bonding is very important to control those fault currents. Why you inverter wouldn't allow bonding could only mean, either the manufacturer just wants to play safe and push responsibility away if users make mistakes and kill the unit, or the inverter has an internal leakage detection similar to a RCD. But normally you cannot cause harm to the hardware by a N-G bond...

[@nestyplus]

My AC outlet is L1 and L2 system and our local utility does not allow us to connect to their earth grounding rod. Can I bury my own earth grounding rod and connect my PE of inverter in that separate grounding rod I made?

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

Yes, then you would have to make your own. So all your outlets will be completely isolated from the grid. If you know where the rod from the utility is, try to stay away by 5m/15ft of it. If you have metal pipes coming into your house, you might stay away of those as well. Then your earthing will be seperated.

[@nestyplus]

@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore , thanks.. also my separated earth grounding rod will also be wired to my surge protection device.. may I know why I need to stay away by 5m?

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

@@nestyplus imagine the rod is set under high potential by a fault or a lightning. That voltage will then drain into the soil. But this doesn't happen at a spot, it happens gradually over a distance of around 5m radius, where then the voltage will reach Zero. So if lets say there is another rod 1m away for the energized one, energy would transfer via the earth and be picked up by the other electrode...

[@nestyplus]

@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore , btw my plan is to connect the copper ground wire rom the solar panels frame to the my separated ground rod and also the PE wire from my hybrid inverter also the the ground rod. Is this set-up ok I mean both DC and AC terminated in one ground rod? Or I make another separate ground rod for thr AC hybrid inverter? Thanks

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

@@nestyplus I would say its OK, because if you are getting a lightning strike into your panels, the surge will go to the inverter anyways by the power cables. It is important, that you put DC and AC surge protectors at the inverter (if panels and inverter are more then 10m away from each other, then a extra DC SPD at panels too), and get a long earthing rod for low impedance. But if lightning is very likely at your location, you might have a separate rod for frame and mount, and the other for power lines and inverter.

[@olvano]

sir do u know if u use the line only with a ground ,not bonded to the neutral u will get power?

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

If you would deliberately not connect the PE metal shell of an appliance to the Common bonded Neutral there, you would not get shocked, but then there is no path for short circuit to trip the overcurrent protection as well, if that device would have a L to Shell fault. So all of this circuit is just getting more and more wonky. It just doesn't make sense. Keep the PE and active circuit separated and use a RCD. That is the way AC systems are protected since the1980s.

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

Sorry, think I have misunderstood your question. If you do not bond Ground wire with the inverter Neutral, there is no return path to the inverter as N and PE inside the inverter is separated. So no, it will not run anything. On the Grid it will if there is no RCD upstream, as N and G there is typically one in the TN net.

[@olvano]

good ok .thanks 😂😂

[@olvano]

i came for a job to change 6 outlet and hook a ground .i walk with my clamp meter to check amps at the ground and it 39.95 amps.so i left it unfinish to get some info .what do u thing is wrong ?

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

Sorry, this comment was hidden from KZbin to be approved... where do you have 40 amps measured? An earth wire which is carrying current, is by mistake or fault made part of the active circuit. You need to figure out, why that is the case.

[@lukefarmer5391]

The only thing I am confused about however is that according to electrical code a grounding rod is solely for lighting protection. I may be wrong. Man grounding can be so confusing.

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

which country are you from? what is your inverter output? some country's wouldnt require grounding because it comes through the TN-C system from the grid, but if you build your own Net, there is no grounding link from the power source. Thats why we need to create one by grounding and bonding...

[@lukefarmer5391]

@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore Hi Roland, like you said in one of your videos, you hope that your video sparks conversation about this subject , because it is so important. Because the consequences of doing something incorrectly has or can have dire consequences we can get very excitable on the subject. I think that is a good thing because hopefully it will have diy people really check into what they are doing and make sure they are doing it correctly. So I finally looked at the “case study” video. I also looked into some of his response videos about the grounding “issues” that people have commented on so he made a response video to answer questions on it as well. This caused me to look as deep at it as I could and I found a video that I would suggest everyone to watch. It is by Mike Holt. Grounding?? I can’t exactly remember the video title but if you type in his name and grounding they will come up, it is over one hour long. You may have seen it already, if not watch it! So to answer your questions, I live in the US in California, and I have a small 3000w inverter. From watching your video again I think you have made some incorrect assumptions on US wiring and the case study wiring. I may be incorrect about your understanding but this is what I picked up on. 1. That neutral and ground is bonded through his system. That is not true. They are only bonded at the main disconnect /distribution panel. 2. You mentioned that the ground and neutral are parallel conductors and electricity can take either pathway. That is also not correct because the ground wire and neutral are not bonded at any appliance. Only the ground wire is bonded to metal pieces of the appliance case and the ground tab of an outlet, which is isolated from neutral at that point. If they were both bonded inside an outlet then yes both conductors could carry the return path to source, that would however defeat the purpose of a ground wire and that is not how our outlets and our lighting systems are designed. There is a ground wire to all switch receptacle and all lights have a ground wire to every light receptacle, so the illustrations that you had with touching the light housing while touching the ac fan casing would not be possible unless neutral and ground was bonded inside each appliance and that is not how they are wired. After my additional looking into the matter i would have to say I can not see any infraction of the case study. Per California code a ground fault circuit interrupter breaker must be installed on curtain circuits, but not all. I believe he lives in Nevada so they may have different codes then here. We do not have RCD breakers here in the US but we have gfci and arc fault breakers and the combination of the two. I personally installed the combined breaker because I want that ground fault protection. Which brings me to the next point. Ground fault. You can have ground fault protection or electrocution protection without a earthing or grounding rod. In fact an earthing or grounding rod has no bearing at all on the safety of the circuit. That comes from good connections, good installation, and proper bonding, and nothing to do with a grounding rod. For United States electrical systems, a ground rod and bonded to it is ONLY for lighting protection. Check out Mike Holt videos and let me know what you think. I am responding out of total respect for you, I am not trying to get into a pissing match or to say one was is the only way. I enjoy learning and only want to be safe. I hope I did not make assumptions on your analysis on the mater. A good discussion is great because it sharpens skills an encourages safety. That is why I encourage watching the Mike Holt videos because he has a panel of experts and they have a discussion on why things are the whey they are.

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

@@lukefarmer5391 yes, I am fully with you. All this are discussions with the goal to make this issue understandable and increase awareness for system safety. My main problem with his setup is actually, that IT systems are not meant to be used for multi circuit applications. They are designed to supply single appliances, which typically have to keep running safely under fault conditions. Quote Wikipedia Earthing Systems: "In IT systems, a single insulation fault is unlikely to cause dangerous currents to flow through a human body in contact with earth, because no low-impedance circuit exists for such a current to flow. However, a first insulation fault can effectively turn an IT system into a TN system, and then a second insulation fault can lead to dangerous body currents." Yes, his setup will work as long there is no double isolation failure, and GFCIs are perfect to keep leakage at the appliance detected. We outside of North America, use central RCDs, but that's OK. Sorry that I had to construct some case to visualize a certain dangerous situation which might not happen in U.S. You know I have international viewership and this was what came in my mind as here in Thailand no ground wire at lights is standard :) We have to consider the say, "whatever can happen, will happen to somebody someday". NEC is of course written for grid connections. And with a grid connection, you will normally get a low impedance fault path back to the transformer. That's why electrode for lightning only. But if you don't have a grid connection, aka you run a off-grid inverter, there is no path for ground faults present if you do not install a rod and bond N-G. So we are back at the IT system. Why I said that his N-G was throughout the system, was because he has connected his AC straight to the panel terminal by cable. If he would have shown that the cable initially is going into a GFCI, that there is a separation built in there of course. I will try to address the differences between 120V-countries and 230V-countries in a near future video so we can keep learning from each other.

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

@@lukefarmer5391 i have now watched the video you recommended, and think I understand where the confusion is coming from. It seems just to be misunderstanding of terminology between US meaning of Grounding and Bonding based on code, and my explanation of how to get similar safety features with the inverter off-grid setup. So in my soon to be published video, I will try to exactly pinpoint the definitions on what those terms mean exactly for what we need it for. It should then all be much clearer...

[@lukefarmer5391]

@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore you have some great videos, keep them coming , and I am glad to see awareness for potential safety issues grow from education by videos like yours.

[@baneverything5580]

My 2000w inverter has a grounding lug on it. I plan to use a 60 amp MPPT charge controller and a 12v 300ah Ampere Time 200 amp LiFeP04 battery with about 800w of solar panels to power a small window air conditioner. Can I connect a 10ft ground wire to the inverter and go out a window to a ground rod? I`m on a fixed income and have heard a different story about how to do it from everyone I asked. This was a huge purchase for me and I spent the last of my savings on the parts and have continued buying more each month to attempt to finish it and I don`t want to make a huge mistake. My panels will be propped up on the ground outside my camper. EDIT: My air conditioner has an RCD built into the plug and I plan to have a 200 amp fuse on the positive battery terminal between it and the inverter and the inverter has built-in fuses and various other protection.

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

So, this is a small off-grid setup, right? one appliance connected only? Yes, just ground the inverter as you say. Connect the AirCon Ground there as well. There would be nothing more to do as that setup can be operated as an isolated installation.

[@kotchakonwukovits7785]

🥰🥰🥰🥰

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

Wifey has found out that I have a KZbin channel... :)

[@stephenainsworth629]

Didn't get your what's app no

[@stephenainsworth629]

Ok got it

[@stephenainsworth629]

Do you have what's app

[@stephenainsworth629]

Thanks for your help

[@stephenainsworth629]

I didn't get your number it seems to have disappeared

[@skrudzasss]

+

[@ebenolivier]

Sorry, but have to disagree. You cannot have voltage between neutral and earth. As the other youtuber said, you have to complete the circuit to have voltage or current. Since this is not an earth bounded system you can never get voltage between live or neutral and earth. This is like touching a 1000v battery's live. Nothing will happen since you are not completing the circuit. You touch the neutral and live then you completing the circuit. So for such ungrounded system an earth leakage is not necessary since nothing can leak to earth as earth has no influence on the system. Grid power uses the earth for its neutral, so humans basically live their whole life on neutral in such a case and therefore all the extra protection devices. But in the ungrounded system you cannot get electrocuted by touching the loop, as long as you do not become the loop. Now imagine that, a system where you can touch the live and not get shocked. Well that youtuber has such a system. Of course, you can touch the live of the grid system, as long as you not grounded and therefore not completing the circuit. Like people working on high power cables using a helicopter, they not grounded end therefore no worry of electricution

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

Yes, absolutely. Every system has its advantages and risks. You have now mentioned the advantages of isolated systems. Under normal conditions nothing will happen, similarly nothing will happen in grounded systems as there we have our protective devices. But there are two risks in isolated systems. One is Overvoltage, which will occur if you have a nearby lightning strike as the inductive energy introduced into the isolated system cannot escape out of it anymore or at least for a while. But that's just a few fried appliances. The other risk is a double insulation failure. Imagine you have, let's say, a hot water tank. It gets an internal L-G or N-G fault. No problem, as the system is isolated, you will not notice it. But that device has a metallic shell and is mounted somewhere into a structure. The structure can act as a grounding rod, and now you have turned your system into a grounded system without knowing it. The next insulation failure will now act as if it was in a grounded system, with all risks included in it, but without protective devices. So, if a human touched a hot, what before would have been a safe action, now he is getting part of the circuit. Isolated systems are used in a few cases, but they are not used in home installations as the number of circuits and connected appliances are making it a choice of high risk by multiplying possible points of failures. Will Prowses system has a different problem. He has exposed all neutrals to the outside of appliances due to bonding the N-G throughout the panel. It can be fixed by using a GFCI outlet at every appliance. And in general, he just did it wrong in the first place, as Class 1 Appliances in IT systems need to be grounded, and there is no N-G bond in the system. He has essentially just created a new Earthing system. But it's your choice, just know what you are doing!

[@ebenolivier]

@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore thanks for the feedback, also implementering an off grid system and fighting with this grounding delema.

[@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore]

@@ebenolivier can I ask, is it true off-grid or is there a Grid connection, which you are using as well for backup or charging, etc.? Challenges typically come up only when there is a grid to interact with. Otherwise, I would simply replicate the situation similar to what you would get when you install and connect to the grid in your country. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system is showing nicely what every type of earthing system looks like and what the pros and cons are.

[@ebenolivier]

@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore Yes, will be true off grid system.. A generator will serve as backup. For now I am using a switchover between grid and inverters but that will fall away. Thanks so much for all the advice and info..