I've Played This Once and It's the Best TTRPG

I've Played This Once and It's the Best TTRPG | ShadowDark

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Күн бұрын

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@antagonistrpg 5 ай бұрын

I've designed and published a game, and am currently working on my second and I'll tell you there's a lot of reasons why rules don't end up in rulebooks that you don't think about until you write one. After adding a rule to a system, I'll often remove it because of any number of things. For example,: 1) If the tier of complexity of the rule would invite a large number of similar rules, and I just don't have physical space for them. If I don't think the players would have the headspace for the rule. 2) If the rule (and rules like it) would demand too much headspace from the GM. Every rule in your book has to be remembered on some level or it may as well not exist. At the very least, people have to think to check for it. And if you put too many rules in a book, people will start checking for other similar rules that aren't there. All of this bogs down both the pace of the game, and the GM's brain. 3)If the rule can't be broadly applied. In that torch example, making a rule about lighting torches implies a constant difficulty regardless of situation. If lighting torches is a major part of the game, an over general rule about it might create a lot of problems for regularly occurring exceptions. 4) I'll reluctantly admit I sometimes trim or remove rules If they mess up the book's layout. I've changed the wording of a few of my rules just to fit them into the space I had available. Often this involves trimming off a bit of complexity from them so, as an added bonus, they're easier to remember. Given that Shadowdark is such a compact game, I'd be shocked if it contains everything the designer originally intended for it. She probably had to trim a lot of stuff out to keep it streamlined.

@nickischilling 5 ай бұрын

Thanks for the insight! The fact that the torch lighting rule exists in the play example definitely implies that it was probably directly in the rules at one point or another.

@antagonistrpg 5 ай бұрын

@@nickischillingHeh, you've got a point. Referencing a rule that no longer exists is something I've done on one or two occasions. Thankfully I've got some very rules lawyery playtesters that catch most of those. Rules lawyers may be controversial sorts for playing rpgs, but there's no better sort of playtester you could ask for.

@Akeche 4 ай бұрын

@@nickischilling In truth, it's actually left open for those "rulings over rules" vibe that all OSR games follow.

@langwaters9653 4 ай бұрын

SHADOWDARK!!! Just swept the ENNIES at GenCon, including Best Game. I'm officially a SD dork. Played my first DnD game in '79, Shadowdark nails the best of the old and the new. It helps that the games designer, Kelsey Dione. trained as a journalist. Her ability to convey meaningful content in the most concise way possible is absolutely next level. I strongly support SD for the way it incorporates REAL risk (5e lost sight of that), exploration and emergent storytelling. And the rules light system promotes brains of players over buttons to push on bloated character sheets. I could go on and on. Keep playing Shadowdark!

@spudsbuchlaw 4 ай бұрын

Pro tip: OSR is about "rulings not rules" so a gap in the rules is often not a bug, but is in fact a feature. You don't need a rule to tell you everything because you have a brain. Leave the idea of "balance" in 5e

@Suavek69 4 ай бұрын

9:25 I'm going to defend this a little bit. To quote the quickstart "If there were a rule for every situation, we would be living inside the rulebook instead of the game world.". You already have all the rules you need. You know that if an action is difficult, it's DC15 or so. There you go! If you are climbing a tree with branches kindly reaching to where you can comfortably grab it, you can climb it without any roll, but if you want to climb a sheer surface with little to no spots to grab on to, roll a difficult or extreme check. There's no need for entire section of detailed climbing rules because you already have all the rules you need. If you want to run as fast as you can, you can run as fast as you can, no roll required. But if the ground if made of polished marble on which someone spilled water, you might want to do an easy check to see if you don't slip and fall, and if that marble floor is covered in ooze, you might want to do a difficult check. There's no need for entire section of running rules, because you already have all of the rules you need. Finally, if you want to light up a torch and there's no enemy in sight, and you still have some light left to see what you're doing - there's no need for check. If you want to light up a torch, but you need to reach for flint in your backpack, while trying to avoid being hit, while relying on touch and sound alone because you don't see a god damn thing... that's a hard check. You don't need "lighting the torch" rules, because you already have all the rules. The rules being - is the action risky? no? no roll. Yes? roll of some kind. Most other rules are a bloat on the system.

@DMTalesTTRPG 4 ай бұрын

The torch thing is just because it’s an action that is challenging, so RAW you set a CR and roll with it. The point is to not spell out every little thing. It’s just, “here’s how you set challenges.”

@ChilliJez 5 ай бұрын

Shadowdark is currently my favourite version of D&D and I have played a lot of them over the years.

@jacobgrimm9475 4 ай бұрын

"Rulings over rules", that is the OSR mantra, which Shadowdark blends the best of OSR with modern 5E mechanics. @ the 13:08 mark in Nick's closing remarks, that too is the reason every single rules scenario isn't spelled on in Shadowdark. If they tried to it would quickly bloat to just shy of 1000 pages.

@hrijbeiuh748hdieeu 3 ай бұрын

12:38 NOWWW you’re getting it!

@nullzero 4 ай бұрын

The thing you have to remember is Shadowdark is trying to bring familiar 5e style mechanics into an old school rules style attitude. So the idea of Rulings not Rules is a very strong basis of the system. There are an infinite number of situations that can't be covered and rather than worry about it you as the GM get to make a ruling. Its the reason GMs were called referees before anything else.

@cragland94 5 ай бұрын

i run old school essentials from time to time but i took the "always on initiative" rules from shadowdark and adapted them to my OSE games. i really love this approach to initiative since it gives all the players time to shine during the exploration portions of a session and it also makes time tracking a lot easier for the DM in old school essentials. i can see where you're coming from when it comes to the lack of rules in OSR games (specifically ones based on B/X DND like shadowdark and OSE). over the last few years, though, i've been able to fill in the gaps with rules that fit my DM style which i've found to be a fun and rewarding experience. i hope you continue to have fun with shadowdark! it's a great game.

@Mushjjot 5 ай бұрын

Greetings from Belarus! Great video. Also glad that I watched it after Kelsey responded to your original question about relighting torches on Reddit so thanks again for focusing everyone's attention on the matter. Laughed that the rule was actually hidden in the section of the book I always kind of skipped. xD Tomorrow will be our 30th session of ShadowDark and I have to say you should recommend it not only to people who played D&D prior to that but also to anybody new to the hobby, as I discovered that the simplicity of rules gives new players good understanding of what a d20 TTRPG would look like and can help them more easily move to more complex and rule heavy systems later if they so desire.

@Frederic_S 5 ай бұрын

I played and GM (almost) only The Dark Eye (Das schwarze Auge) for 25+ years and it was fine. I don’t regret it. But now it’s time to try something new and different. P.S.: you can and have the right to use any game for anything. I use Blades in the Dark for anything. Not just heists ☺️

@seanferguson-th6ny 5 ай бұрын

I agree that ShadowDark has some grey areas but much like the core principle of torches and darkness the rules have a dim edge to them, I believe, either consciously or unconsciously, for a reason. No game can create a rule for every situation and SD definitely is defaulting to the original TTRPG system of "rulings not rules". I think for newer players and players of Pathfinder and late-stage D&D this idea can be a challenge. Personally, I happily trade the 50 kilograms of rules and lore from all the D&D manuals fir something that reads relatively quick and clear and allows more room for my group to fill out the details.

@Wo1fLarsen 3 ай бұрын

I appreciate the Skyrim music in the background.

@kalleendo7577 5 ай бұрын

Shadowdark is Awesome!!

@BLynn 2 ай бұрын

Kelsey is in Engineering & as a result has experience of reducing down text to be succinct. She writes to indicate what can be done within the rules. Previous systems were written & when they saw an issue they added more words instead of reducing down the data to best convey what they intend.

@xguild5555 4 ай бұрын

I know I'm going to sound like an old man right now, but it's nice to see the younger generation picking up games like Shadowdark which are essentially 1st edition Basic/Expert rules cleaned up and enjoying it. For so long time, there was an unresolvable generational gap between old-school and modern players, but games like ShadowDark are closing that gap. It's just nice to see!

@willmendoza8498 5 ай бұрын

I have run two groups through a Shadowdark adventure and it was a blast. Definitely one of my favorites

@jcraigwilliams70 5 ай бұрын

ShadowDark is a great game when you want something D&D-like So it ICRPG. I'm a big fan of simpler games these days. I still like some games with crunch, but one of my favourite games is Fate Core, which has exactly 4 moves (Attack, Defend, Create an Advantage, Overcome) and it's great. Another good one is EZD6. There are plenty of great games out there that deserve more players.

@terratorment2940 4 ай бұрын

I softened the spell failure risk. Mishaps happen if wizards try to cast without spell slots, though in that case it *always* happens but whatever spell effect they were trying to achieve also happens, first. For divine casters, they only risk offending their deity if they are not doing what their deity prefers. A god of war might be annoyed if you keep bugging her to heal people but is always fine blessing active combatants. A god of healing is fine with you healing but could be annoyed if you are healing people just to get them back into a fight.

@gameram6382 3 ай бұрын

Im leaving dungeons and dragons for this new rpg

@BubblyBanjax 4 ай бұрын

Shadowdark is great for embracing and encouraging your own intuition. DnD is bogged down because it tries to provide rules for everything while Shadowdark saves page space and your time by simply giving you a strong basis to work from so you can make up your own damn mind for what works best for your game. No page is wasted in Shadowdark because it trusts intuition which makes it easy and fast to run.

@spudsbuchlaw 4 ай бұрын

I'd disagree, Shadowdark is much more beginner friendly than something like 5e, or especially 6e. You don't know how many players I've tried to introduce whos eyes glaze over as we roll 4d6, drop the lowest, assign each, then have to adjust them according to their race, then pick a subrace, then pick a background, then pick their class, then pick a subclass, or feat, pick equipment, and on and on. Plus, preparing spells, and especially the cantrip/leveled spell distinction isnt intuitive, nor is being a wizard that can only cast 2 spells for a lot of people. It makes much more sense you can cast spells but there being consequences for it. I don't personally like the 1 hour torch rule for all groups, so I just use OSE's 6 turn limit and its all good

@davidlewis5312 4 ай бұрын

You think -2 to hit is new player friendly okay...

@pogodonuts 3 ай бұрын

@@davidlewis5312I think the point is that’s it’s simple. You just add your -2 and that’s it. You don’t have your +3 and then also add your +2 proficiency bonus, but your damage only adds your +3 strength. Oh and your fighting style lets you reroll the 1 you rolled on the dice. Do you have a bonus action you can use as well? In shadowdark you likely will have a +2 in your main stat, and if the wizard runs out of spells and has to try to hit with a dagger and a -2, new players understand that. I’ve introduced plenty of people to 5e and not a single person has had even basic attack/damage understood after the first session. I just introduced someone new to ttrpgs to shadowdark and he understood basically everything not even an hour in.

@MagnificentDevil 4 ай бұрын

There is an old saying, "Rulings Over Rules". Part of the GM's job is to make rulings, so there doesn't need to be a rule for absolutely everything. You handled the re-lighting torch situation correctly, by making a ruling based on judgment and keeping the game moving. Many people, especially old school gamers, see this flexibility as a feature, not a bug. I can see how it may be jarring at first for people used to rulesets like modern D&D, but I think if you embrace it you'd find it actually is more resilient and flexible than D&D precisely because it doesn't require explicit rules for every edge case.

@bamboozledgreatcrowd8982 5 ай бұрын

Shadowdark is a great alternative to D&D. I switched and have DMed 5e since it came out. It is very refreshing and I think it is better than D&D.

@DungeonMasterQuest 4 ай бұрын

Great video. I just don't think that Shadowdark is only made for that, you can totally run all kinds of fantasy scenarios with it. It has a whole bunch of tables for coming up with district encounters and all sorts of good stuff :)

@dane3038 3 ай бұрын

Took me a while to remember that I haven't played NWN in a few years. Nice score.

@BunnyNiyori 5 ай бұрын

Is it the best? Well, it is likely closer to #1 than just about everything else eh. It beats D&D any edition. It beats most of the D&D clones. It might be sharing the top slot with a few titles. Big fan of Forbidden Lands. Looking forward to getting Crown and Skull. I'm a diehard fan of WarhammerFRP.

@Elighght 4 ай бұрын

I was shocked with how much I liked the real time torch mechanics

@ScottBaker_ 4 ай бұрын

If you have to have a rule for everything, SD may not be your best choice.You also wouldn't have fared well with the actual original games. I love SD personally and am glad to hear about other people having fun with it.

@RIVERSRPGChannel 5 ай бұрын

Yes I use timers in D&D. Sounds like a cool game. Perhaps I’ll try it at a convention this year.

@AAron-gr3jk 4 ай бұрын

I havent played it yet because I've been so happy with both Maze Rats and Knave 2e. I want to give Torchbearer a try as well

@janbiela8596 4 ай бұрын

The example with the torch is exactly the reason why I’m not a big fan of super rules light games. For some reason they get marketed as beginner friendly which they are not - an experienced GM can come up with rules on the fly, but a newbie will struggle. Ideally you should also remember or write down the rule you came up with to avoid confusion the next time the same situation arises. I have been both a player and a GM for many years (played both crunchy and rules light games) and I personally prefer having more rules than too few. I also don’t like when rules light games go into direction where it’s like “oh it’s just flavour whether you use a sword or an axe” - this makes me feel like my decisions don’t matter. That’s just me though and I’m happy there are so many options out there :)

@nickischilling 4 ай бұрын

Very much agree with the “beginner friendly” aspect. A book that has the space to go in depth about the core rules will be easier on a beginner than one that does not. Still love Shadowdark though

@janbiela8596 4 ай бұрын

⁠@@nickischillingoh yes I still wanna give Shadowdark a try, but I will probably house rule a few things to avoid problems I mentioned above ;) it seems that shadowdark is a good system to add on personal ideas.

@Chiungalla79 Күн бұрын

A crucial thing to always keep in mind is that there isn't such a thing as a best or perfect RPG. Most RPGs are specialised for certain aspects and styles within the hobby. Some are more general in their approach, but rarely beat a specialized system in their field (unless the specialized system sucks). Shadowdark could be considered to be the best way to run a dungeon with high stakes. And if dungeon crawling is all you want to do, Shadowdark is probably the best system for you. If you want to do anything more or anything else with Shadowdark you are trying to get nails into the wall using the screwdriver.

@torreyintahoe 4 ай бұрын

I've heard that it has some cool features but there's nothing really groundbreaking about it. Reinventing the wheel.

@JavaApp 4 ай бұрын

The genius of it isn't in its innovation (though there are rules that are innovative, like the torch timer), but the excellence of its design in terms of presentation (layout, font choice, one and two page rule modules) as well as the content, which raises the bar in terms of all the random tables it provides, and finally the rigorous and sometimes ruthless efficiency in the choice of rules to include. All of these together make the book shine.

@torreyintahoe 4 ай бұрын

@@JavaApp I'll have to check it out. Looks like the book is worth owning for the art alone.

@dedededededededede 4 ай бұрын

Great video, thank you!

@sugestedmoore5221 Ай бұрын

I just got back from Kubla Con Fall. This is a great game.

@DaggetSWG 2 ай бұрын

I get the hangups with not having more stuff codified, but in my experience the more stuff is codified the more narrow the possibilities are for the game, and the more sessions devolve into arguments over RAW and less about playing the actual game. The best thing to do is just read the rules, come up with solutions to any issues you might find, then you just set expectations about how you will rule on stuff for your group. After that, just try to make consistent rulings, and that's it really. One of the key elements of Shadowdark is resource management, so when you say you kind of forced your players to fight in the dark instead of lighting another torch, that just seems weird. The players are using their precious inventory slots to carry these torches instead of other helpful gear, or pieces of treasure. If they want to be super safe about having light at the expense of other gear or treasure, then that's their call. It's a fair tradeoff that's kind of inherently part of the philosophy of the game. That being said, if that's how you want to rule it then more power to you. As long as you disclose this to players beforehand so they aren't stockpiling torches instead of other useful gear. Your concerns about unconscious players seemed to be about how it impacts the balance of the game. However, Shadowdark is not concerned with balance in that way. Encounters are deadly and unfair, and the game isn't necessarily focused on combat because of that. It's more about exploration, survival and resource management. Just come up with your own solution to players being unconscious, if you want it to be make it more difficult or easy for players then that's up to you. Again, just communicate expectations and intentions on stuff beforehand so players don't feel cheated by rulings.

@warpmaster1597 4 ай бұрын

Just ordered a copy myself.

@Skulliver-t8q Ай бұрын

I love this game. Now, as for the "fuzzy areas" that is going to be odd for people who have played mostly 5E D&D. If you played an edition before D&D 3.0, a lot of the game master skill and player skill came in rulings, not rules. By virtue of this, each group playing would be a bit different. So, house rules were normal. One thing I think really stands out in Shadowdark is embracing the random. Leveling up in this game is not going to be about making some broken "uber build" to beat the game. Also, NO PC's have Dark Vision. the impact of that on exploring is massive and it's wonderful to have adventuring feel like the dark and scary occupation it is. Cursed Scroll Zine content adds a lot to the game with new Player and GM facing content, mini campaign settings and special rules. For instance, testing for lingering wounds after being taken down in a fight but not killed outright. The add on content is still cleanly written and it is optional. I think, for me, Shadowdark is impressively elegant in simplicity without feeling rules lite.

@goldengriffon 4 ай бұрын

"The creator / designer / author". Kelsey Dionne, you mean. With all the praise this book has received, it's odd how many people don't bother even naming her. To be fair, and to her credit, she doesn't plaster her name all over and wants to promote the game rather than herself. But still.

@p0ck3tp3ar 4 ай бұрын

I honestly can’t name the creator of 99% of games I’ve played 😅

@davestory8614 4 ай бұрын

If you think you’ve found the best ttrpg, you just haven’t played enough of them. My top list is of individual mechanics and not full systems, and I don’t recall seeing a single new mechanic from Shadowdark (but it does include some of my favorites advantage/disadvantage, Reroll tokens, conditions, etc)

@thetabletopskirmisher 4 ай бұрын

You don't need new and innovative to be good. Sometimes you need to distill down to the basics and keep the good parts and throughout the rest because fun. Not rules.

@epicsavagebros7400 4 ай бұрын

@@thetabletopskirmisherWhile this is true SD added a number of systems that make the game worse than other systems with mechanics that are carried by 5e and its players. For example carousing is an extremely flawed system that lacks the needed variety to make it work while also being extremely frustrating to use. This makes leveling in the system too random for it to be interesting long term. As a dungeon crawler it also lacks rules for hirelings which are extremely important for this kind of game. This system is designed to be a gateway to the osr for 5e players but fundamentally lacks the needed elements to make it a complete experience. It honestly fits well with something like Candela Obscura that Critical Role game that wasn’t even finished but was made to see how well a true CR d20 rpg would work when it comes to interest and purchasing power. It also embodies Morg Borg in the way that it is more of an art piece than a game work playing.

@Jay-ql4gp 4 ай бұрын

I've never played Shadowdark. It's the reason I'm watching this. I would like to say, if you haven't tried Dungeonworld, give it a try. It's even more flexible. And it has one mechanic for everything. Oh, and we dealt with unconciousness back in 2nd edition. And we handled it the same way you did. After the battle, everyone wakes up.

@FlowNeffets 4 ай бұрын

Concerning why some parts aren't explained in the book: it might be that this was simply overlooked during editing. Writing a book is hard, and each reader is another brain that comes up with aspects the writers did not think of. You may be lucky and your official house rule finds it's way into 2nd edition.

@Skulliver-t8q 4 ай бұрын

You talked about rules bloat in 5e. There are verbose rules for so many things. It slows play. The light being on a timer, rations being few and light limited, you really need to keep things moving. It adds tension and is more immersive. Game rules are there to provide a structure to support, not hamper a DM. This game follows that old school idea that rulings can and should come up in play. Shadowdark wants you present in the vibes of the game, not buried in a stack of books or online searching for an "official rule" from one high. As long as you understand the basics, are fair and it makes for a good story, your table should have a great time. Each hard rule may interact with another in an odd way. This is how you get to a slow game full of broken combos which make play less about experience and more of an optimization arms race. D&D 5e also has taken a stance that nerfing all difficulty through PC abilities makes things feel heroic and therefore more fun. For a lot of us who grew up with earlier editions, that just feels off in play. As for the low level play aspect, Shadowdark tops out at 10th level. There is guidance on what you can take on based on level but, with low HP, lighting issues difficulty in resting safely and roll to cast spells, you are never really going to totally off the dungeon crawler "struggle bus". The game can stay tense and epic. There is no HP bloat and there is no cherry picking level upgrades and multi-classing. The optimization chase is not present in the game and that is fantastic. part of playing is discovering how your character will unfold. You can't stress about a character upgrade when it is random. the fear of making the work choice in your "build" is not a thing. Embracing the random can really bring PCs to life in amazing ways.

@Suavek69 4 ай бұрын

6:30 that would be almost as miserable as being a martial class in 5e. Rolling to see if something happens? I could never./jk

@HowtoRPG 2 күн бұрын

Yes. It's designed for Dungeon Masters to make their own rules that aren't that important.

@philmckay9973 4 ай бұрын

Sounds like how i used to use BECMI 😂

@michaelhazen8658 23 күн бұрын

Bloated over the last ten years? Oh sweet summer child. TSR back in the olden days learned the hard way about market saturation and having to publish or perish. Nowadays Paizo and Hasbro/WOTC continue to face the same problem while also chasing that sweet sweet passive recurring revenue that comes from the software world like a virus (and a pox on it). Shadowdark is a fantastic expression of the old school game that my antique ass grew up with in the 70s and 80s. While simply dropping the weird-ass war gamer sexism of OD&D and AD&D that we all ignored anyways. Shadowdark is but one of these expressions of the art that offer a simple framework instead of trying to boil the ocean with a lot of rules and slap books. DCC RPG is another I would encourage you to try. Shadowdark cribs the luck, unique monster, spell check, and 0-level ideas from it (and DCCRPG cribbed that from somewhere else, because that is how we do!) Have fun with it! BTW: I dont use the real life timer. I use turns and count down the light source. I add risks to the light source as the time slots count down. its the same effect but allows for player vs character interaction; because I like the players strategizing. thats me, you do you. Yeah always try rules as written before fiddling.

@Gnarrkhaz 4 ай бұрын

Thanks for covering some of the problems about this game. I haven't played or read it, but i know the kind of quirks these concise RPGs tend to have. Too bad all the other content creators on KZbin simply declare games like this a masterpiece and move on without anaylizing the rules properly and how they actually work at the gaming table.

@valorin5762 4 ай бұрын

If you didn't look much into other RPGs than D&D, then maybe try looking into something completely different? As awesome as Shadowdark might be, or Beyond the Wall (my absolute favourite when it comes to old school D&D-likes), maybe try, let's say, Blades in the Dark?

@hrijbeiuh748hdieeu 3 ай бұрын

The whole point is that you don’t need to refer to the rules

@sugestedmoore5221 Ай бұрын