I WANTED THE PERFECT TOM SOUND

A synopsis of my knock down drag out with my golldurn Ludwig centennial small tom. It was never quite right, until I ditched the isolation mount. It now sounds really good for a delaminated lower line drum. Why do I call it "lower line"? "delaminated"? Because every drum in this 5 piece set was delaminated. Ludwig told me to take a hike. No more luddies fer me. I did repair them as best I could, and after years of experimentation, I got them sounding good in a controlled environment. • "THE ONE" IS OVERRATED.
A link to what the tom sounds like in its natural habitat. Here's a link to the delam B.S.: • LUDWIG CENTENNIAL DELA...

[@unclerhombus]

Ehh, it sounds alright. Suspension mounts definitely give more resonance.

[@karlplaysdrums]

Not always. As I mentioned in the vidyah, it changes the critical frequency, SO, depending on how you tune the tom, and the size of the tom, isolation mounting may not help. Listen to that tom in my other videos, eq'd and properly mic'd... it sings like Florence Nightingale. 👍

[@karlplaysdrums]

Resonance and sustain are two different things.

[@Dave-lr2wo]

Thank you for this. For literally decades I have always made the same observation. RIMS was choking my drum sounds. My solution (workaround, really) has been to tune the drum in position and cross my fingers.

[@karlplaysdrums]

I've done the same thing! Better than nothing, but sometimes the sweet spot is missed. Frustrating as hell. Thanks for commenting.

[@marsailmar1]

R.I.M.S. and isolated mounts have been a marketing gimmick for decades. The great drum sounds of the 60's (Motown) and 70's (Fleetwood Mac, Steely Dan, Earth Wind and Fire) were mounting pipes right into the toms. Did recorded drums all of a suddenly sound better in the 80's around the time RIMS were introduced? I think we all know the answer to that.

[@karlplaysdrums]

Thanks for your input!

[@sandrofeliciano3850]

And I also think it’s very ugly too, heavy, and take more space on soft or hard cases as well. So, I never really dug them, and to me there’s no much difference Sound wise. I record many times in all the best studios here in LA, and never ever used any drums that had that, and no one ever complained. So, it’s a no, no to me.😊

[@karlplaysdrums]

Yes, that's another thing to consider. It makes the drum a LOT bigger and heavier. You'll be needing new cases! Thanks for commenting.

[@matthewg4556]

I don't think you can blame the bad 80s drum sounds on hoop mounts alone. Plenty of reasons to not want your kit shells drilled with a mount for many people.

[@DG-sf9ei]

On point 100%. Only an idiot hipster would believe that mounting a drum by the very spot which defies a drum's sound is an innovative idea. The drum engineers of the early days weren't marketing idiots, yeah they may have had limited resources to make efficient solid mounting hardware, but they knew from over a hundred years ago that the most inconspicuous place to mount a drum with minimal effect to it's sound was the center of the shell. It's the way it was and always will be with acoustic drums, and the stupidest of modern drum engineers are trying to make a square wheel roll better than a round wheel.

[@jc3drums916]

I found that mounting the tom further down the L-rod, near the bend, can kill the sustain. Ray Ayotte has said the same thing. Although, adding a (newer, aluminum) RIMS mount seemed to minimze the effect for me. (My kit has the larger diameter L-rods BTW. Maybe the smaller diameter ones like yours are better, because they can flex a bit more or something, I dunno.)

[@karlplaysdrums]

Yup! Sometimes turning it on the rod will change things as well. That tom just said no to everything. Thanks for the comment, good advice, and thanks for watching!

[@QuickestQuickChop]

I wonder if that's why a lot of people I know prefer a 12x8 instead of a 12x9

[@karlplaysdrums]

I have a 12x10 sonor that was terrible, but it was the other way around, terrible with the stock mount, so I put a RIMS mount on it, and it was cured, but I had to tune it very carefully. I wouldn't be surprised if the depth of the drum affected the mounting sensitivity. I do prefer standard depth drums. 12x8, 9x13, etc... thanks for the comment. Food for thought.

[@drumrboynoid]

A local drum builder here on Portland OR named jeff Kirsch removes all the rubber from the drum lug mounts. That's before he improves the berring edges. Most things are gimmicky.

[@karlplaysdrums]

Indeed! And everything has an effect. Thanks for commenting.

[@RandomlyDrumming]

I did the very same thing with my Tamburo Studio Plus (2004. model) drumset. I took a risk and removed the tom mounts and drilled the holes in the toms, mounting them directly. I got a lot livelier sound and better sustain. It was definitely worth it.👍

[@karlplaysdrums]

Cool!

[@robjdrum]

I've found that on my toms that have the mount directly on the shell that it's how high or low on the L rod you put it. And every tom is different but it is either at the tip top of the L arm or as low as I can get it. One thing that I've noted but haven't tested is that the tom that like to be low on the L rod, that L rod has a position lock on it so the tom is actually resting on that lock. Might have something to do with it, might not.. but typically, they like to be at the very top of the L arm. Floor toms have a magic secret too... hold them in the air, they sound great, put them on the floor they die.. the solution is Pearl air suspension feet, or anything similar... magical.

[@karlplaysdrums]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/eafch2eBmdaDhNE

[@MeshemSchoolOfDrums]

Thank you. I was considering doing the same so this video helps make the decision clear.

[@karlplaysdrums]

You're welcome! I've done battle with crappy mounting systems my whole life, usually without even knowing it. As a kid, getting bad advice from "experts ", sending me on wild goose chases, changing heads, cutting off mounts that protruded into the drum, all I knew was that when I held the drum in my hand, it sounded AWESOME...

[@MeshemSchoolOfDrums]

@@karlplaysdrums Yep same here. Frustrating! LOL

[@gringostarr69]

To me Tama's StarCast mounting system has been great for + 15 years. Only problem with them is that with age the rubber that it floats on gets fragile and then breaks. They should be switched at least every 5 years and they cost some 7€ per each or $7..

[@karlplaysdrums]

Yes! I've seen a lot of good systems over the centuries, but they all are compromises, and sometimes the best system in the galaxy won't quite get it done. That's when we have to decide, am I gonna live with this, or look for a solution? Sometimes the only solution is to find a different tuning. And yes, many systems have soft parts that wear out, crack, get hard, soft... Thanks for the comment!

[@riccokane]

Can we hear it through the mics please?

[@karlplaysdrums]

Yep. I'll do flat, and eq'd. Tomorrow!

[@karlplaysdrums]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/eoi3XqedqZyer5o This is the same drum, eq'd. Sorry it took so long to make that vidyah!

[@iRideuWatch]

Sometimes the shell mounted versions choke the drum. Take each one on a case by cases basis.

[@karlplaysdrums]

Exactly!

[@Lakersballz]

Not with Yamaha 👍

[@karlplaysdrums]

@DB56 I've run into this issue on everything from Yamaha to Sonor. No drum is immune, and it does seem to be more of a problem with smaller sizes. I have some Sonors that choke WITHOUT isolation mounts, in the smaller sizes, so, as stated before, every drum is different.

[@MrJasonodonnell]

Best tone for me has been Tama power toms, with a shell mount hanging at at 12o'clock, L arms into rack clamps, with toms mounted at tip of the L, mounted on a curved Tama rack set high. Not a rig you want to gig with every weekend.

[@karlplaysdrums]

Yes! Sometimes a little experimentation with tom positioning on the mount makes a noticeable difference.

[@DeanMk1]

I had one of those Iso mounts pull my 10" tom 1/4" out of round. Fortunately, I was able to get it back into round and it plays fine to this day, but heed Karl's warning. Iso mounts are not always the answer. Sometimes, they're the problem.

[@karlplaysdrums]

Ouch! Yes, they rarely fit out da box. They need to be bent to fit, or they will cause all kina prollems.

[@DeanMk1]

@@karlplaysdrums Yeah, I replaced that one with another one but same issue. The second time I was smarter and fit it to the lugs first before just blindly installing it. It's the "shield" piece where the arms and tom bracket connect to. It's like they're made to fit 12"-13" toms, so when you try to put them on a 10, its not curved tight enough. This was the case with both of the ones I have. I took a soft face hammer and put that piece over a large vice, using it as an anvil and peened that piece into the correct curvature. Not perfect, but much better than it was. I wouldn't use it at all, but it creates an 1.5" space that helps locate my tom into a comfortable position. So my purpose for it is not as an ISO mount, but as a tom locator.

[@bigotonbrand]

Yamaha has the best mounting system

[@karlplaysdrums]

I play a set of Yamaha stage customs in one of the bands I play in, and I love them, BUT, the smallest tom (10") needs to be tuned very carefully so that it doesn't end up in the "dead zone ". It is a universal problem. I do love those Yamahas though. Thanks for watching!

[@guitaristbiker]

lots of people love dead drum sounds, dampeners, super low tuning with no real tension on the heads, I just feel like what ive experienced, what really great veteran drummers that I know have experienced, some drum makers/repairers that I shop at preach upon, truely leveled edges and really understanding the relationships between the heads and not being afraid to get into some tension, there are a ton of different mounts and wood types and so on, but bad tention relationships, heads that are pre dampened, dampening devices, uneven edges, etc.... these thing will rob the hell out of the sound, projection, and sustain, if someone really want super low sounds, buy bigger drum sizes then, but if you use clear 1-ply heads and get some medium tension on the reso, and then go just below or just above with the batter, a leveled edge drum will sing forever regardless of mount or shell thickness or wood type, heads are frequency waves, too low and its slow and dies, too tight and its barely moving and chokes, in the middle and they'll vibrate like a wave on a river

[@karlplaysdrums]

Drum sound is a personal preference, and indeed, some do prefer a dead sound. I sure don't. You'll find that most of the world class drummers have very lively sounding drums, but very clean sounding, ambient and recorded. This "live" sound comes with a number of benefits. The drums project much better in a live venue. The drums feel much better to play. When I can feel the stick dig into a nicely tuned and mounted tom, it is a very satisfying feeling. I know that I'm getting all I can out of the drum. It is optimized. As far as tuning, there are no hard and fast rules. I agree that tension is USUALLY your friend, but not always. I have a set of Sonors that do NOT like tension. They like those heads quite loose. Sonor is a different animal, though, because of the undersize shells, and razor sharp 45 degree bearing edges. My Ludwigs have conventional shell diameters, and they do like more tension. Tuning the top and bottom heads differently works sometimes, and sometimes it doesn't. My Luwigs like the batters and resos tuned EXACTLY the same. Every drum is different, and needs to be tuned and optimized as a separate instrument. I've just recently started experimenting with multi-ply, and damped heads, and I've been thrilled, surprised, and amazed by the results, but the mounting situation is a battle I've been fighting my whole life. There is NOTHING worse to me than tuning a tom to perfection (my idea of perfection) and having it go flat when I mount it. I am very particular about my sound. Most long time drummers have "signature" sounds. I will do whatever it takes to develop my sound, including modifying mounting arrangements. The role the mount plays in the sound of a drum may be the single most important factor to consider, hence the video. Thanks for watching and commenting.

[@guitaristbiker]

@@karlplaysdrums you said it in a roundabout way, the best use a lively sound because thats what is needed to cut and fit into the mix, studio is obviously a different ball game because anything that produces a noise could be used, if a drummer isnt listening to all of the consistencies between the world class and working from there, thennnnn ill just leave that there

[@just2bad766]

My pearl BMP toms with optimount and evans heads sounds better than my sonor smart force with Prism Rosette and factory heads... It has to be the tom mounts right?🤓

[@karlplaysdrums]

It is possible. Seriously.

[@ralphbenites1312]

I’ve had my remo clear pinstripes for a long time since 2008 been wanting to try something different.Ludwig accent power tone with deep tom’s.for rock sound 🥁

[@karlplaysdrums]

Pinstripes are a great head. I've gotten some bad ones, but not lately. 👍

[@ralphbenites1312]

@@karlplaysdrums cool Thairs no dents on them thay look pretty new still.

[@karlplaysdrums]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/hmfHmIeVrKx4fdE Here ya go. The whole kit. This is eq'd, btw. Maybe I'll do a vidya on eqing?

[@JazzyJonas]

Yes, the drilled-through, attached mount is generally superior because it's at a nodal point of the shell. It's sort of like a stud in a wall having very little resonance compared to the surrounding hollow sections, so behaves the nodal point of a drum shell. Similarly, the size and placement of the lugs have a great effect on resonance as well. I believe Yamaha and DW (probably others) have articles explaining this better than I can, but that's the gist.

[@karlplaysdrums]

Yes! Simply put, everything affects everything. Thanks for watching and commenting.

[@llRoBoBinHoll]

Get any good audio from the mic pointed at the shell of the tom?🤔

[@karlplaysdrums]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/gl61qYGnrMuCjaMsi=_5Bwa77aCjRBoAhu Here’s an old one for you. Micing the shells works very well!

[@karlplaysdrums]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/oaunm6tjgp5obbssi=M18kwwuCA8O1R7An Another, shells only.

[@deathmetaldave]

Ive used both for 30 yrs,suspension mounts ring longer,tama birch starclassic

[@karlplaysdrums]

Sometimes!

[@martinel2450]

Nice video! Isolation mounts suck. When you mount on a stand the rods are slightly bent all at different tensions depending on their location. I tried tuning while mounted with some success but u may as well get a mount with minimal shell contact and install. Ditch the isolation mounts.

[@karlplaysdrums]

Yeah, sometimes they work, and sometimes... nope. Thanks for the comment. 👍

[@Krooksbane]

A Snare stand could do the job too right?

[@karlplaysdrums]

Excellent question! I have tried snare stands, and I did not have a good result. It didn't kill the sound, but it definitely impacted it negatively. It is worth trying, because I think it could work with certain drums.

[@liamfitzdrums]

If a snare stand is too tight, it will actually kill the drum sound. There is a brand out there called tnr that makes isolation mounts for your snare stands and also for floor toms to give them more resonance. I don't know if they're any good. I've never tried them myself.

[@karlplaysdrums]

@@liamfitzdrums sometimes! The absolute answer is that there are no absolutes!

[@Freddy-Da-Freeloadah]

I have a really nice (looking) Premier resonator 12" tom. IT JUST SOUNDS SOUR!!! I can't get it to sound nice, on or off the stand. I was using a snare stand, but I will take your advice and put it on the L mount! IMHO

[@karlplaysdrums]

Before you do that, I would spend some time figuring out WTF wit dat drum. See if you can get it sounding good when held by the the top rim in your hand. Every naughty drum has a solution. Is it round? How are the bearing edges? What heads does it have? Often times if the shell is wicked outta shape, multi ply heads can help, with lower tunings. Sometimes you can get the heads to seat if you slightly overtighten them, and let it sit for a few... weeks. Good luck, and you have my condolences. At least it looks good.

[@Freddy-Da-Freeloadah]

@@karlplaysdrums The drum looks perfect. I think the bottom head (Premier brand) might be the problem. Or the top head (Remo clear Emperor)? It has beautiful looking cast rims, but maybe they are not true? Yeah, I should look at the drum! IMHO

[@matthewg4556]

@@Freddy-Da-Freeloadah if you're still using the reso had that came with the kit you should switch that out.

[@joek81981]

I have green Centennials and there *is* something about that 12 in tom. I have it on a snare stand, juuuuuuuust so -- not a death grip, not flopping around in the basket, but juuuuuuuust so and that seems to help it sing. But yeah, pick up the shell in your hand in whack it, and she hollers. Mount it and... phrrrff. Centennials are such a great value too. My whole kit cost less than my hi-hats. Like, I DARE you to find a bigger, more-clear sound for cheaper.

[@karlplaysdrums]

Yeah, my Centennials sound pretty good, all things considered (see my delamination video for gruesome details). It is SO frustrating, isn't it, when a good sounding drum is killed by the mount? Made me what I am today... insane.

[@thomasluther9211]

Remo coated emperor head .. never fails.🤘🤘🤘🤘🤘🤘🤘

[@karlplaysdrums]

I've used coated ambassadors for a 1000 years, but always clear emperors... you got me thinkin'...

[@thomasluther9211]

@@karlplaysdrums Ludwig drums they love Remo coated heads

[@karlplaysdrums]

@@thomasluther9211 👍

[@ralphbenites1819]

I have it on a snare stand

[@karlplaysdrums]

I have tried that. My results varied.

[@timsuthern4580]

I guess everyone has their own opinion on what the best/perfect drum sound is. From what I've heard on hit songs from the seventies, even crappy drum sounds will do the trick.

[@karlplaysdrums]

Indeed! Bottom line: a good drummer will make it happen!

[@MWorsa]

When are you gonna tune it?

[@karlplaysdrums]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/n5WUe4BuZbaSn5I

[@smokymountaincabinrentaltours]

Do you have any experience with the Ludwig Atlas Tom Mount? I play Ludwig Centennials also. Red Sparkle. Nice sounding drums. I might try the mount before drilling the shell.

[@karlplaysdrums]

I used the iso mount that came with the drums. It has "1206" stamped on the inside of the hoop. It looks pretty generic. Same numbers that are stamped on a "genuine r.i.m.s." mount. Interesting...

[@matthewg4556]

@@karlplaysdrums they're the same because 1206 refers to 12"hoop with a 6 hole pattern.

[@karlplaysdrums]

@@matthewg4556 yes, I was able to extrapolate that using my meager intellect.

[@UCS0608]

It's funny how drummers talk about using special systems to mount the toms, like Rims and Optimounts and sometimes use cradles for the floortoms or special suspensionfeet etc. etc, yet they all worship vintage drums with sometimes crappy tommounts and hardly any rubber feet on the stands. Same with "virgin" bassdrums. 😁

[@karlplaysdrums]

Aaah yes. The virgin bass drum. Can't have anything hanging on our bass drums, now, can we? As far as tom mounts go, I want to design one that emulates a hand holding it by the rim. They ALWAYS sound good that way, methinks.

[@nicoeleich]

Hapened to me with a pearl tom originally mounted with bracket directly on the shell … i put it on a optimount and it sounds horrible… no sustain at all, untuneable…

[@karlplaysdrums]

Ugh. Nothing worse than good drum killed by a bad mount.

[@paulaeden5934]

That toms sounds feckin awfull...lol!

[@unclerhombus]

Seriously.

[@karlplaysdrums]

Potatocam in that vidyah. Check it out in my other vidyahs.

[@karlplaysdrums]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/jJm6fIqfa7xmnKs

[@karlplaysdrums]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/eoi3XqedqZyer5o

[@hoganbentle3582]

It sounds nice and pure. Not everyone wants their drums tuned low and dry.

[@DaumantasMusic]

mostly is not mounting is room...

[@karlplaysdrums]

Not in my experience, HOWEVER, if something is too close to the drum ( within inches, or less) it can compromise the sustain, true.

[@marissarodriguez8422]

Opeth Deliverance??? Jajaja 😅

[@karlplaysdrums]

7

[@SPSbeavis420]

Perfect?🤣

[@karlplaysdrums]

Rhetoric.

[@karlplaysdrums]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/iH7HqIOonL2mlbMsi=6gN6iYuZoRQNHZOS Here is an actual recording of this drum (along with a few others). Better?

[@genejensen4881]

😁 pքɾօʍօʂʍ

[@karlplaysdrums]

hmm.

[@MrFchank]

Blah,blah,blah. Tuning is the key.

[@karlplaysdrums]

Yeah, pretty boring. Good topic, though. I’ve been fighting those goldurn mounts forever. Sometimes you have to venture outside the sweet spot with your tuning to get it freed up. I hate that, but sometimes that’s just the way it is. Thanks for watching.

[@mirkomarkovic3438]

That is soo out of tune my friend

[@karlplaysdrums]

Pretty good for a delaminated POS Ludwig Centennial, though. Admit it… c’mon.

[@mirkomarkovic3438]

@@karlplaysdrums what i mean is the heads don't sound like they resonate well in itself, with each other and both in relation to the drum. my philosophy is that every drum has a sweet spot where it wants the heads to be and then even a POS drum can sound good cause the whole thing resonates at the same frequency at the same time period. You can have the drum stay at the pitch it's tuned at, go down or up, but the important thing is that the heads have the same tension everywhere so they change pitch (or not) at the same time at every point of the drum. And this drum doesn't seem to do that.

[@craigmcbennett7409]

Well your drums are the issue, they are cheap and sorry the sound is terrible. You get what you pay for then the rest is up to the person behind the kit.

[@karlplaysdrums]

Thanks for watching and commenting.