I wish I could (and I don't) love Wes [Angel the Series]

[@HoneycuttVideos]

The way they reduced Gunn to being just “the muscle” and having him be so wildly insecure about that role in season four so that they could make Wes look smarter by comparison was SUCH an unfortunate mishandling of the character. Especially since in seasons one and two, Gunn had been very strongly established as being a pretty smart fellow. Like, right off the top of my head, he’s the one who figured out where Wolfram and Hart were hiding Darla. I mean, that’s part of WHY Angel keeps recruiting him for help early on, right? Because he contributes things to the group that no one else can. But then once he’s fully integrated as a member of the team, he has nothing to offer except muscle?

[@tiamod]

They Anya’d him.

[@gungho1284]

They actually went out of their way to make Gunn appear very smart on the show. He'd figure things out before the others on several occasions. Gunn was the one who first noticed the pattern on all those sheets of data Angel got from Lilah that was supposed to be about The Beast in season 4.

[@jeffmartin5504]

@@gungho1284 Yeah, I do not think they tried to make him out as only bieng the muscle because of incidences like this. I think that is what he thought of himelf in a moment of self-doubt. TheBuffyverse often has a habit of using juxtoposition to establish something is not true despite what the character beleives of themself.

[@Katatawnic]

​@@jeffmartin5504This is what I took from it, as well. It wasn't what the others saw in him; it was his own insecurities.

[@laurakoby806]

They kept telling us that Wes was smart. But Gunn was the one we saw actually doing smart things. He managed a fairly successful vampire resistance group while being a mortal human with none of the training or wealth that Wes had. Gunn, on screen, genuinely seemed like a cleverer person. They nerfed him to prop up Wes and it was lame.

[@jamescottam9622]

Your view on Wes reminds me of how I felt about Xander after Dead Man's Party, which for a long time completely killed the character for me, since we never get any catharsis between him and Buffy. I think why it brings it to mind is there's an unfortunate pattern in the Buffyverse of men behaving terribly (especially towards women), and then everyone is just expected to forgive them? Because they're 'complicated', and apparently that equates to 'morally unaccountable'. Honestly, in light of what we've learnt about Joss, and how he's said that Xander was a self-insert for him, makes me suspect that Wes is also acting as a self-insert for Joss.

[@bernardsoul5186]

Indeed, and not only was there no catharsis or repercussions for Xander for that behavior, but then he doubled down in "Into the Woods" and was treated as the voice of reason

[@DisWriter]

All of this forvever!

[@arc7375]

Xander is his direct and accurate self-insert. Wes is his personal Mary-Sue wish fulfilment.

[@FilmFlux]

I feel like I've unconditionally loved the series Buffy and Angel and haven't gone back to them enough to address them critically. So this was transformative. Thank you. Also, my favourite Wes moment: Wes : Angel, you don't find me especially paranoid, do you? Angel : Not especially. Wes : Oh, thank God. I was worried.

[@Stuart267]

Wesley was oddly adorable, I preferred his goofy British side than the dark & moody Wesley we got in later seasons.

[@bernardsoul5186]

@@Stuart267 That was also the side of him that was hitting on high school girls, that used his fake identity to get laid, and that refused to pay Gunn for his contributions to the team.

[@Jeff_Pryce]

It always drove me crazy that Wesley didn’t apologize to Angel for kidnapping Connor. To me, it reeked of hubris from Wesley.

[@OdditiesofTyler]

“Wes has been the white one-sorry, the right one”-that killed me. I always felt like Gunn and Fred had better on screen chemistry and Wes and Fred acted like middle schoolers performing Romeo and Juliet.

[@5x5Takes]

it’s just so forced and unsubtle! rewatching supersymmetry, especially, gives me a headache.

[@flootzavut30daychallenge]

YES.

[@arc7375]

@@5x5Takes I feel the same way about Cordelia and Angel. Feels forced, artificial and out of nowhere.

[@mareanya]

Ah, I love Wes' arc. I absolutely love that he was so dorky and "pure" and after Justine slices him up he just turns 180. Him with Lilah is one of the relationships I also love the most, for being so dark and eerie. This is the kind of stuff that makes me feel nostalgic about watching this show. But the love triangle just sucks.

[@salyx]

And this is why season two is my favorite. Best interactions in the group.

[@IonIsFalling7217]

I was FURIOUS with the way they treated Wes. He was exactly the sort of dork knight I tend to fall for, and he came out so one-dimensional and miserable and cold and lost everything light and good.

[@LetItSnow51]

This sums up a lot of my issues with Wes, only without my rage at how Wes in The Girl in Question gets priority over Fred's own parents. The racism as it relates to Gunn is never discussed enough for me. I also find it weird and frustrating when i look through BtVS AtS discussions that Xander at 16 is held to a harsher standard in terms of his feedings towards Buffy, than Wes, a grown man re: Fred.

[@5x5Takes]

GOD, literally. wes has similarly, if not more egregious weirdo behavior with women and it’s both Consistent and unexamined??? and for what. for what. and the text co-signing wes’s “Unique” claims to fred-grief is so irritating and sad. GET A JOB GET AWAY FROM HER

[@LetItSnow51]

@5x5Takes Totally agree. They did have Angel tell Wes to move on, which was framed as Angel being mean and David playing it as harsh. I've see your old POI vids so you'll m know what I mean when I say Wes needed a Fusco. When Reese ran off, eventually Fusco just laid it out there that Reese wasn't the only one who lost her. Fusco lost someone very close to him... and then had to run off and check on Reese. But back to the Buffyverse I'd given up on some places (Reddit) where I just feel like the unpopular opinions aren't welcome, especially when I speak of Wes and Xander (I don't like the way everyone gets special consideration for their own behavior but Xander's home life is treated as a joke or throw away line until Hells Bells.) Xander wasn't trained, he was a kid and yes he screwed up at times but comparatively I don't get why he's the epitome of toxic when there are better contenders, namely Wes. I'd definitely say Spike and his Buffy obsession but then, on other places, I just get a lecture that he didn't have a soul. Well, Wes has one and still gets coddled and hailed amazing. Gunn got the shaft in many areas (his lack of airtime in s5 infuriates me) and the show went out of its way to paint him as a racist towards demons in That Old Gang Of Mine not long before the triangle with many racists aspects. I love your vid so much. There aren't many that go against the popular opinions in the Buffyverse. It was cathartic to watch.

[@5x5Takes]

i concur with so much of this. without condoning the obvious misogyny embedded in the character, xander gets dismissed way too much and way too intensely, too. and gunn gets some of the most offensive, insulting writing in the show-and STILL, somehow, manages to shine

[@tFighterPilot]

The Girl in Question might be the overall worst episode of the show. The worst part is that the Wes-Illyria plot was the better one of the two. Only good thing about it is that it shows how good of an actress Amy Acker is, jumping between two completely different characters.

[@racheldoesfandom]

I nodded in agreement so much during this video, that I almost threw my neck out.

[@5x5Takes]

if i could make even One Person feel understood by this video then it’s all worth it

[@draganh]

Cordelia had the best arc. Fred and Gunn and Wes and Lilah shouldve been together.

[@p1ssedoffchristof48]

I liked her transition from tactless snob into the more grounded and empathetic Cordelia. Sadly she didn't have more screen time because Joss Whedon was a complete dick.

[@p1ssedoffchristof48]

I know this wouldn't make it as dramatic but Wes should have explained that he was taking Connor to protect him because the prophecy. Angel had more or less learnt that he had been drinking Connors blood at this point so he'd understand that there were forces manipulating him which may lead to the prophecy possibly manifesting.

[@ARMarTy_]

Too risky and the interesting part about all of this is, Wes was drifting apart. Because even then he could've talk to Cordelia at least, but I mainly take it as an understandable error on Wesley's part where he drifted apart and lead to his independance and somehow growth. Still don't like the reactions after this, and that's one of the things I don't like in the Buffyverse for example. It feels a bit out of character sometimes without being somewhat in the middle ground, like when Buffy came home in Season 3 and not really getting back to it to add more neutral things. We kind of move on and that's it. Plus that's why I don't really agree with people thinking Wesley got it easy compared to Xander, Wes paid everytime whereas I don't have the feeling the show did the same thing for Xander but maybe that's just me. It was a massive error ( and knocking Lorne. Yes it was out of desparation and akin to the " Old Wesley " but still ), that has maybe some kind of parallel with his decision to deal with Faith back in Buffy. And it's interesting to see he isn't a perfect character contrary to the "' Wesley Wyndam-Pryce Head of Class, "' being wrong a lot of times and could'nt have anything work out. Now that I think of it, I would've liked more if Wes used this moment to not do his mistake again. Even though it can be viewed as a type of " character doomed to never learn " but in this case, I would find this a bit easy

[@Aquilenne]

They knew. It didn't matter to Angel.

[@dybruce1]

This is a brilliant video! I could never put my finger on why I didn’t ever fully buy Wesley’s return to the group or warm to him again , but you’ve hit the nail on the head - the conversation was never had where he expresses his regret/sorrow/apologies/guilt. Of course we’re all expected to just know that he feels it without it being said, which I sort of understand. Great character writing like both shows have don’t need things to be spoon fed to us and laid out explicitly but you’re right … with the weight of what he did, we needed SOMETHING to give some closure to it

[@mariposa9506]

@@dybruce1 I always wondered if Connor knew whose fault it was he was kidnapped. Connor wasn't exactly the forgiving type.

[@pheonexia]

Honestly this put into words so much of what I feel about Wes. Particularly why his arc always felt a little weird and incomplete, and how the love triangle does such a disservice to everyone involved every step of the way.

[@YozoraHeart]

Ya know, I like Wesley's character, but I didn't disagree with any point made here. Mostly because Gunn/Fred dying a death tilted me even as a kid watching this show. There aren't many Black characters PERIOD in the Buffyverse. Getting one as charming as Gunn and having a character who acknowledges and appreciates that charm blew my mind. And it WAS frustrating to dumb down Charles to make it work. One of my favorite Gunn moments is in S2 when Kate is trying to find Angel for reportedly kidnapping Darla. Gunn is the one who points out that Angel can't perform a home invasion. He's insightful, thoughtful, smart, and well uh...just way better than Robin and shows up several years earlier. Nasty work to chaos dunk his character to put Wes over. Gunn/Fred forever. But it's still really sweet when he burns Lilah's contract.

[@АнтонДолматов-с1ю]

From my point of view, the lack of apology can be explained quite simply. They decided to completely reclassify him as a tragic character. So instead of a scene with an apology (or an attempt), we got a scene with a pillow. During which (or after) Wes decides that given the history of all his previous mistakes (and the fact that the “man” he considered his best (if not only) friend tried to kill him) he cannot be forgiven. What's the point of apologizing if you can't forgive yourself and can't imagine that you could be forgiven? After which the scriptwriters drove him deeper and deeper into a gray zone like: I do the things that need to be done, but how I do them is between me and my conscience. And apparently this puts a lot of pressure on his conscience. By the end of the seventh season, he behaves almost like a sociopath with a death wish. After the return of his memories, Wes was angry with Angel because he (Angel) took away his moral suffering (which in his opinion he deserves)

[@5x5Takes]

absolutely. he definitely has a “corruption” rather than a redemption arc. that’s the thing-i see what they were going for. it just ends up feeling like they don’t fully commit in either direction. i’m all for complex, ambiguous people/protags/heroes. this one just ended up feeling frustrating most of the time

[@jordanhyman9877]

​@5x5Takes one thing I really do love though bout Wes' gray arc though is his full circle with Faith. From doggedly attempting to rehabilitate her, to hating her and thinking she's a lost cause, to attempting to get her to tap back into her ruthlessness in order to face Angelus. Wes & Faith in S4 is one of the best things about that season.

[@mariposa9506]

@@АнтонДолматов-с1ю this show didn't have 7 seasons.

[@lizan2678]

Thank you for this video. As someone who has never liked the way the shows frames Wes's self-righteousness as 'right,' this was a good watch.

[@PyroDrake1134]

You make great points, and I understand your point of view. Thanks for this video! I love trying to see things from another perspective.

[@raqsasim]

"I'm not having a fun time watching" really sums up a lot of the Wes arcs. And THANK YOU for calling out the racism in that love triangle. It was really frustrating to me to watch that way back in the day, and it's not left me in the years since. Esp. after seeing Acker, many years later, in a far better written interracial relationship....what could have been (SIGH).

[@5x5Takes]

if you tell me you’re talking about root and shaw i’m going to break down and cry

[@raqsasim]

@@5x5Takes I am! I'll be crying again soon, too! Just got the blu-rays and planning a rewatch with my Partner, and lots of tissues. :) Actually, was it you who mentioned the similarities between ANGEL and PoI?

[@5x5Takes]

@@raqsasim oh yes. gonna make a short goofy video on that

[@raqsasim]

@@5x5Takes YAY!

[@beckyginger3432]

Which show? Has the love triangle?

[@teradul2480]

Not completely done with the video, so sorry if you adress this: I feel like Wes' reintegration into the team is less of the narrative condoning his actions, but because of the memory wipe, it is more of a retcon.

[@5x5Takes]

of course! i meant reintegration into the team from *our* perspective, the audience.

[@visionary202]

I do really like Wes, but I also agree with all that you've said here on the general whole. I love the Lila/Wes stuff and really wanted more Fred perspective all around in the show

[@bernardsoul5186]

Thank you for this video, I've taken this stance before, but never had the eloquence (or the patience) to articulate the points you made as well as you did. Very cathartic indeed

[@branballistick]

Folks talk about how Xander was Whedon's self insert, but I think Wes was his unintentional one in Angel.

[@parker469a]

I feel like he's a parallel to Lindsey character who was going down the same path of "always part of the problem" eventual ending but got a turning point for another character ending instead. However, you can't ever know what the next season that never happened would have done with Illyria's character. I mean the comic's might be accurate but they might also not be accurate. A lot changes when adapting things to live action.

[@mandalevelsup]

When people say that Wes has this amazing character shift it definitely always felt like, "from doofus to insufferable asshole" to me. But I think what most people generally mean is that he got a sick ass glow up.

[@elinorcackett2314]

I loved Fred and Gunn together. I was so annoyed at how it was just destroyed in a half arsed way for Wesley

[@flootzavut30daychallenge]

YES honestly even their ballet date is largely framed from Wes' POV when they're so cute together. I feel like their breakup is largely a product of "damn we want Fresley to be endgame so we can make her death about Wes" instead of actually having a credible reason for it. They accidentally created this really adorable couple and then "had to" break them up because they wanted to use Fred for Wes' character development and it drives me nuts.

[@laurakoby806]

Yes, also the characters had more in common. They were both highly intelligent people who had to fight for a chance to make more of themselves. Also, they seemed to have more of a shared sense of humor/wit. They seemed more like peers with mutual respect. With Wes it seemed like Fred was mostly there to cheer him up.

[@ARMarTy_]

I think that maybe a full video ( if I didn't miss it entirely ) about the production of Angel Season 5 could be interesting, given all the things they supposedly changed because it was cancelled. To me, Fred's death was devastating for her mainly and Wes was just a collateral damage but the writing was a bit all over the place

[@paulknight9998]

To me he just comes off as a plotting scheming nerd who's biding his time, waiting for an oppurtunity to stab somebody in the back and betray the group. Untrustworthy creep.

[@Bunni89]

GOD, yes exactly! I feel like people only focus on how good the arc COULD have been, how rad the idea was, how cool it is in theory to have such a huge change for a character. But then they gloss over the spotty handling of the execution. Its like we all collectively had a mandela effect and imagined more depth and exploration of his character than we really got. The dark wes arc does deserve credit for raising really interesting questions but WOW they left the heavy lifting up to us to actually answer them. Also Gunn was fucking robbed, seriously! Wes and Fred had basically zero chemistry, which is bizarre cos I feel they would have got on like a house on fire if they started dating BEFORE he turned dark Wes. It was really too little too late to slam them together after we already had a way better relationship with a character who was already chronically neglected by the writers...

[@keltzy]

I've always been a little lukewarm on his character, and the arc he wound up taking. I'd always figured that it was my dislike of the direction that seasons 3 and 4 wound up taking, but I think this does a good job of detailing some of the specifics. Gunn especially is my favorite member of Angel Investigations, so seeing more and more the sacrifices given to his character arc in favor of Wes does really suck.

[@GoryBMovie]

When it comes to the Buffyverse, I love analysis and criticism even when it is negative but I only accept it from those that love these shows. You clearly do and your take on Wes was eye-opening and refreshing. Also, love that you included his dancing in the credits!

[@hannahmetzger4880]

I hate love triangles in general. So this is a win-win for me. :3.

[@EubyGamingUK]

They really didn’t know what to do with Gunn, which was a shame. I loved it when him and Fred got together, but as you said, it was always overshadowed with grumpy Wes lol. The fact that even in the comic they made Gunn and evil vampire, just shows they didn’t care for him being a part of the team. I thought the growth of wes felt natural, him feeling like he was betrayed by the team, so he turns cold, but the love triangle was just completely stupid

[@JReed1985]

I thought I was the only one who hated Wesley after he kidnapped Conner, got his throat cut and changed into a brooding priggish kind of character. Wesley was and in hindsight wrong to kidnap Conner. Yes, his intentions were good and we know why he did it, but he was in the wrong for not telling Angel or any of his colleagues about the prophecy (which turned out to be false). There were many missed opportunities when he could have told them and the whole situation could have been resolved, but no, he just kept it all to himself. If that's not bad he went to Angel's pursuer Holtz who was hellbent on getting revenge on Angel for murdering his family. It was a very good reason for Wesley's colleagues to feel hurt and betrayed by him after being attacked by Holtz's men. What bothers me is that Wesley never apologised to Angel when he should and still looks and acts as if he didn't do wrong and did the right thing all along. I also didn't like how Wesley started torturing people and using harsh methods just to achieve his aims. When he stabbed Gunn in season five (for something that wasn't entirely his fault), that was when I lost all respect for Wesley, and was why I didn't cry when he died. Now I don't hate Wesley as a character, in fact in the beginning and in Angel season one till three I really loved Wesley. He was a funny dorky even pompous character, who I in fact idolised and inspired to be like him in terms of being intellectual and confident.

[@CrazyGoth631]

Thank you! It says a lot Wesley became the fan favorite after he became such a self pitying creep. Just because someone goes through an arc doesn’t mean they change for the best and it’s sad so many (especially men) idolize his gross character changes and arc. 😵‍💫

[@hollyatkinson6361]

This is completely spot-on.

[@HunnniDarling]

If Wes takes away the bucket, she is just gonna poop on his closet floor. What a hollow threat

[@5x5Takes]

that’s actually so funny

[@zoemcleod5998]

YES YES YES. I loved Angel, almost as much as Buffy, right till Wes took Connor. I didn't realise it so much at the time, but that's where the show completely shifts for me. Angel, like BTVS, is a show heavily anchored by the bond between characters. I didn't realise until now how crucial Wes' writing is to that. Once Wes becomes 'dark', the whole show does too, and the balance the show ran starts to fade very quickly, even more after they kill Cordelia's character. I also despise with a passion how frankly sexist the show becomes S4 onwards. All the main female characters - Fred, Cordelia, Lila - suffer relentlessly and eventually DIE to aid either Wes or Angel's 'darkness'. It's not the compelling writing that the show is capable of, as you mention, but cheap and careless, which is something we're used to seeing on other shows but not in the Buffy universe! Great take, thank you for sharing!

[@DefaultProphet]

If Wesley didn’t have the “Rogue Demon Hunter” bit I don’t think he’d be very well liked

[@xanderross366]

Whats a rogue demon?

[@ajpbrunet]

Great video. Beyond the (very well-put, cogent, insightful) thesis about Wes, I'm really grateful for *this kind* of "content" (or, as it should be known, "work"). These stories and characters were so formative for me and decades later I'm still finding new ways to enjoy and reflect on them thanks to people like you sharing their thoughts & writings. I just think that's pretty neat.

[@TheYardLimit]

Oh man this was so well said! I love Wes. I like S4. But there is this dissonance and emptiness to it. I just finished my umpteenth re-watch and really couldn't stand how they did Gunn toward the end of his relationship with Fred. I wanted to throw something at my TV when Fred came up to Gunn and told him that she felt like it wouldn't have happened if "He hadn't attacked Wesley." Full disclosure, I'm a black man too and I have been heavily invested in this universe since I was 10 years old(I'm 31 now). I really loved that bromance between Wes and Gunn after Wes got shot in that somewhat tone-deaf proto-"defund the police" zombie cops episode lol. I don't feel bad for Wes in S3-4, but I like how capable he is, I like seeing him with Faith, and that is about it. Speaking of Faith, and not to be all bro-y; I wish she stuck around a bit longer and I ship her and Gunn over her and Wood lol. I like Principal Wood, but he kinda feels like whiny beta-Gunn to me lol(I only use that beta/alpha construct ironically I swear) Speaking of Wood, Buffy and Spike's treatment of him in "Lies My Parents Told Me," kind of reminded me of Team Angel's treatment of Gunn when Fred caught that elbow in that scuffle with Wesley. Similarly I love Spike, but he unabashedly wears that trophy from murdering this guy's mom and Buffy's response in particular was just too on the nose and righteous(which I suppose isn't out of character for her). I didn't like how Wood handled that situation either, its really just frustrating and reflects badly upon all three of them. I enjoy Wood and Gunn, but both of them feel like a network mandated checkmark for the writers. The show had no black writers to actually write them either, and it shows.

[@thalia9789]

Yes to all of this!!! Man, I thought I was the only one who liked the idea of Gunn/Faith getting together

[@novembercrust]

I've never thought of a faith x gunn pairing but its perfect, wine and cheese

[@Talisguy]

Regarding the love triangle...in addition to everything else, Billy sank that plotline before it could begin. It's, if memory serves, the first episode where Wesley's crush on Fred is made clear. During the episode, Wes is infected, and he chases Fred through the hotel with an axe, trying to murder her to deal with his sexual frustration. When it wears off, he's so horrified by darker elements of his character being forced to the surface that he wants to stay away from her. ...If the writing wanted us to think he and Fred were destined to end up together, this was just about the worst possible foot to start this plotline on. Not that his violent rampage was his fault, but it's very tough to see this as anything other than a door being slammed on the possibility of them ever getting together, due to how traumatic that must have been for them both. Especially after the darker aspects of his personality, the parts of himself that he was so horrified by in that episode, become more prominent.

[@Talisguy]

Gunn _accidentally_ hitting her seemingly had a bigger impact on her than that one time a possessed Wesley tried to murder (and possibly SA) her. I get that it wasn't Wesley's fault. But hitting her wasn't Gunn's fault either!

[@jeihaynes7077]

I never really cared for Wes and this video gives a lot of nuance to why. I think a lot of people confuse character growth/arc with character doesn’t act the same anymore, but it’s much deeper than that.

[@5x5Takes]

every time i hear the claim he has the “best arc” or “development” i feel like i’ve entered another dimension. what? willow is Right there.

[@mar-shagazorpazorp6431]

I came to write the same thing but you covered it! I never gave him much thought as I was never crazy about him. Rather just tolerated his presence. PS thank you miss five by five for your hot take!

[@lughaidhmcloughlin3640]

Thank you, you're so real for this.

[@normalgamergal]

I one time described my hatred of the Wes/Fred ship as the nerd's self-insert getting the smart manic pixie dream girl. Both Wes and Fred deserved better than being simplified down to tropes, but together they turned into something so much worse. Also, why does Whedon have to make every female character death disturbing? I mean, I know why, but why didn't anyone even try to stop him? On a related note, I listened to "Slayers: a Buffyverse Story" and while it isn't perfect, it was so fun getting to hear so many of the women characters done dirty by Joss able to get some love. Not Fred, unfortunately, but Cordelia, Tara, and Anya, at least!

[@AMoniqueOcampo]

GASP! While I'm not the biggest fan of Angel the Series, I did like Wesley. I will agree that I didn’t really agree with his choices. I'm glad that your take is nuanced.

[@tizzystith6440]

It's refreshing to see someone put this out there... I always felt like maybe I'm wrong for feeling this about Wes as well. While I don't consider myself a huge fan, I've always enjoyed this series throughout the years and find myself coming back to it. I never liked the love triangle "angle" with Fredd, Gunn and Wes. The chemistry with Fred and Gunn was incredible and gave an nice extra nuance to the show. Seeing that go away, the way it did and forcibly insert Wes as if he was the right one all this time, always felt off. As they say, "Not every hero wears a cape". I would imagine not every smart man with glasses, deserves the girl. YEAH... I'M TALKING TO YOU URKEL!! 🤭 *kidding

[@jamieenoshima5147]

The white one. Good lord I laughed too hard at that. I like Wesley bcz of the tragedy and it should have stayed that way. What they did to Gunn was so not okay. And I get it a lot of us have been in that painful situation where you develop feelings for someone but they're with someone else. But you know what? They're usually with someone else. For a reason. As if ppl especially women cannot make their own (correct) decisions. We've all been their and that's what made Wesley okay for me. He should have stayed the tragically alone character with the undertones that... He's alone for a reason it's dysfunctional, he has baggage and trauma. He needs to heal from that. But we never got that healing. We got a idealistic romanticism of nice guys.

[@DisWriter]

Same. Very English and everything that's wrong with the Council. I really hated how he treated Faith when she came back. He was also totally wrong about her needing to channel her inner-sociopath. It was her humanity that saved Angel. Also very telling how he treated Gunn, and Fred when his "inner" sexism came out in Billy episode.

[@jordanhyman9877]

I can't stand the love triangle and Wes' love for Fred always felt obsessive and neurotic, it never seemed like healthy love. The Ballet episode to me killed the team chemistry and the show never got it back.

[@PeazInAPodComic]

Damn this is too accurate. That was the most chemistry-dead love triangle I'd ever seen on a TV series and it completely flatlined three characters on a TV show that only had five cast members -couple that with Angel and Cordelia's own romantic pairing, and Angel really should've just stuck to demon-slaying.

[@dudefromthedeep827]

I like thinking of Wes' and Lilah's relationship as indeed having started off with the intent of manipulating Wesley into joining Wolfram and Heart, but Lilah developed real, sincere feelings for him in the process, in her own evil way. Wesley did evidently fall for her, too. I wonder how their relationship would've turned out if Lilah wasn't murdered by Jasmine.

[@roderick8167]

Yeah I love the character that Wesley became in the Angel tv series compared to his goofy self in the Buffy tv show but him acting like he was in the right and not apologizing to Angel really got on my nerves and in Angel final season he had the nerve to get mad at Angel for erasing their memories about Connor when Wesley did a even worse betrayal to Angel by taking his son like WTF Wesley you hypocrite

[@garysmith9823]

I missed the last couple of seasons of this show and now I'm glad.

[@padawansound6423]

Jesus Christ, those comment screen grabs you showed in the first minute are W I L D

[@5x5Takes]

i love my fans

[@Pottsylird]

thank you for this because i have been arguing with people for years about dark wes. and the way they treat fred as his prize he didn’t get.

[@Angel-od1bt]

I’m thinking some of the Amy Acker rumours and the fact that Wes seemed like a slightly more grown up self insert than Xander might have something to do with the weirdness around Gunn, Wes and Fred. The entire way all the characters talked about her was bizarre, even Cordelia at times, like she’s some little delicate exotic rare bird. She’s very creepily objectified at points, a bit like River Tam.

[@mariposa9506]

Don't you remember how she came to be there? She was a wounded bird at first.

[@Tuaron]

I certainly remember liking Wesley more, though also having many similar complaints (or at least the feelings stemming out of them), especially with regard to the love triangle. I'd really liked him with Lilah, honestly, though I could see *why* he *might* have worked with Fred, he just didn't - it happens. At least he worked better than Connor, most of the time.

[@shybard]

Wes did end up being one of my favorite characters on Angel, so I definitely understand the love for him. Of course, I didn't hate Connor, so maybe my judgment is a bit questionable. The fandom certainly doesn't always agree with me, and I don't always agree with the general consensus among the fandom. However, I don't always love how his character and his relationships were handled. Wes and Gunn (as friends, not rivals) were excellent together. I love them as bros. Wes and Cordelia (as friends) were great and fun. They shared a wonderful sense of humor together that made them charming and endearing. Wes and Fred (as friends) were fantastic at times. I was always happy to see them getting nerdy together. Wes and Angel (as friends) had some really good scenes and moments of very sincere mutual respect and appreciation. It was a great way to reveal aspects of the characters that weren't always as overt or obvious. Wes and Lilah were one of my favorite pairings. It was a bit unhealthy at times (for reasons that should be obvious), but it was also totally believable. I really wanted to see how they would develop together. But the love triangle hurt everyone involved, and it was utterly unnecessary. Granted, I generally hate love triangles on basic principle. I absolutely understand Fred and Gunn not working out over the long run. Most relationships don't. That isn't necessarily anyone's fault. That's just how relationships are. That being said, the forced tension didn't help the characters. The gross sexism and occasional racism were also not needed. It made Wes less likeable, and it became more difficult to relate to him. Normally, I love the awkward nerd. So getting me to absolutely adore Wes should've been easy. Even though he ended up being one of my favorite characters on the series overall, there are moments where he makes me physically cringe. And that's something that I could do without.

[@vanzc7920]

Wesley is the best character ever. He changed so much. He grew. He loved, he lost. He is awesome. He is the best.

[@wabba67]

Good analysis and brilliantly argued. It has been almost a decade since I've watched Buffy or Angel, but I remember enjoying Wesley's story arc. Your video made me rethink my position, so I think it is time for a rewatch this summer...

[@wheresmyjetpack]

I especially agree about the Wesley/Fred relationship, and fridging of Fred

[@rossorat2306]

I'm making my way through a Buffyverse rewatch right now so I'll have to really focus on Wes when Angel The Series comes around. But you definitely made some interesting points.

[@TonyB2279]

I think the intent with the whole Gunn/Fred (Funn?) thing was that, in combination with his fears about Angel and Cordelia's absence -- she was off gallivanting with Groo at the time, I believe -- Wesley was already isolated from most of his friends just by circumstance. Then he finds this terrifying prophecy which, it's worth pointing out, multiple factions (W&H, Holtz, Sahjahn) were actively attempting to manipulate him into taking seriously, so it's not like it was ONLY Wesley's own compromised judgment at play. The deck was *really* stacked against him in this scenario. Then he gets his throat cut. Angel tries to smother him. Fred shows up just to yell at him, for good measure. Cordelia seemingly never bothers to reach out to him at all. THEN Gunn has the gall to show up and ask him for help? (In the moisture-sucking amoeba or whatever episode.) Does all this abdicate Wesley's need to apologize for his actions? Not sure. But I can certainly understand him not being in a hurry to do so at that point. What would it really accomplish, after all? it won't bring Conner back, or undo the changes he went through after getting sucked into another dimension with Holtz. it probably won't salvage his relationships with his friends (which he may not feel are especially worth salvaging at this point anyway). What's the point?

[@thehorrorfanatic266]

2:05 I mean, it makes sense then that people are so shocked with Wesley's change in Season 4 because we had Season 1 Wesley to compare him to, which is a version of the character exactly the same as in BTVS but now with more to do in the story. That version (ATS 1) wasn't a caricature, the one from Buffy yes (or to be specific just a very 'meh' character with some interesting traits). It's not like he shows up in Angel and inmediatly he's on the verge of Season 4 Wesley. 4:24 What about what he said to Lilah in Habeas Corpses? He decided to join Angel in the battle against the Beast and when she questions his morality he literally says "I've made mistakes", in reference to kidnapping Connor. Yes, Wesley did treat the team in a very rude way near the end of Season 3, but because at that moment he was angry with his friends for not listening to his side of things, not because he though he was right and they were wrong. That was the whole point of the hospital scene with Fred revealing him the thruth about the prophecy... and then never talking to him again. That's why when Angel goes to forgive him in early Season 4, Wesley is incredibly evasive, because he hasn't forgiven himself for what he did. The apology in Angel's "perfect happines dream" is him understanding Wesley's pain and not wanting him to fall down a rabbit hole of self punishment. Now, that scene from Spin The Bottle it's more of a "what do you mean what happened to me? What did you expect, the same old Wesley?" instead of a "I did everything right, my problems are on you". Specially when you put it in context since, you know, in that scene they were talking about Wesley helping Fred with the murder of her professor, not the Connor situation. Also, 6:06, that's clearly sarcasm, and 6:10, he's confronting Angelus (someone you don't want inside your head) by deflecting his arguments, c'mon. Could they have been more explicit with this side of Wesley's mind? Absolutely, but unfortunately the plot of Season 4 didn't allow that to happen. The whole point of Wesley's character is going from a man who tried to go by the book and do the right thing, to a man who wants to do the right thing and protect his loved ones by any means neccesary, doesn't matter how brutal they are. I agree with you on people liking him for the wrong reasons, but what you explained in the video is EXACTLY why I love his character. He can't change, and he just flat out rolls with it. He doesn't think he deserves forgiveness, he doesn't see himself as a good person at all (which he explicitly explains to Illyria), and he doesn't think he deserves happiness. His mentality is based on 'I do bad things, so I must be a bad', similar to Faith in that regard. This line from Season 5 that he says to Gunn perfectly encapsulates him: "I stabbed you. I should apologize for that, but I'm honestly not sure how. I think it'll just be awkward". Why bother if the real forgiveness is between Wes and his conscience? Every character in Angel is there to atone for something, and Wesley did it: He stopped being a failure, though it cost him his humanity. In an universe full of characters that change, grow, evolve and heal wounds, he's a very tragic one that shows what occurs when someone embraces their faults and exploits them instead of making peace and amends with themselves (the opposite of Angel basically). No wonder he came across such a dramatic ending in Season 5. Then again, it's perfectly fine if you don't enjoy watching it. That being said, I see most of your points with the romantic triangle and how badly they handled him, Gunn and Fred, specially the latter in Season 5.

[@5x5Takes]

oh i see all of that-just the way it ended up being written and executed did not work for me. i’m glad it did for you!

[@Zaftique]

I agree with this. He's flawed, but then there's always the frustration of crappy writers who don't know what to *do* with someone, haha

[@DharmistJude]

His inability to forgive himself is first shown very explicitly in Billy: when Fred tries to reach out and offer her forgiveness for what he did under Billy's influence, he outright rejected that sentiment. That was the first instance I can recall where he had to grapple with the fact that deep down, he might not be the man he always prided himself to be and can, in fact, be a bad person. That realization of not being good leads to him refusing to be kind to himself and accepting kindness from others as well, over and over again. The prophecy and the consequences of his actions cement that self-image up until the memory erasure in the end of season 4, and then he sort of has the epiphany again after the episode where he has to confront his (fake) father. I'm sure he also managed to somehow blame himself for not being able to save Fred, too. The only time we see him show any kindness toward himself was when he asked Illyria to lie to him at the very end

[@pauldareason]

WOW the great thing about the multiple takes on the buffyverse is seeing how everyone else experienced it. For me Wesley had the strongest character arc. Wes was manipulated and in betraying his friends he thought he was saving the world and Angel, to me they did turn on him.Noble intentions brought him down. Aside from Fred I think all of the main characters turned on the team at one point. Great video by the way

[@GameJeannie]

You could not have put my feelings about Wesley more perfectly...thank you for expressing my long hatred of him so eloquently.

[@saj-manthesonicfan1893]

On the "Wes never apologizes for what he did" point. It seems as if you have only focused on the verbal "I'm sorry" that he never outright says, but ignored all that he's done to atone for what he did. I think it's a disservice to neglect to include all of the downright sacrificial and virtuous things Wes does after he got his throat cut and all his friends abandoned him. Whether or not he deserved that or not, from his perspective that's what happened to him. And yet, he does so many things to earn his spot back on the team: -For one, he did his own incredibly thorough investigation to find Angel after Connor tossed him into the ocean. He found Justine, captured her for weeks on end, faithfully took her on a boat and searched the entirety of the area where Connor and Justine sank him. He does this on his own, which Fred takes issue with later because he didn't "trust them" again. But honestly, I read it more as he didn't think they'd believe him because he was accusing Connor of doing this, the child he kidnapped and enabled Holtz to turn against his father. So from his perspective, would it have made sense to tell them what he was up to without the tall dark and undead proof? I don't think so. -Once he found Angel, the man who swore he'd kill him for taking his son and refused to ever understand his side of the story, he chose to use his own blood to revive Angel properly. To the point that he brought Angel back to the Hyperion because they would be able to give him their blood because "I'm fresh out". He allowed Angel to drink so much blood from him that he had started to become anemic. -After learning Wesley had done all of this for the man who tried to kill him and still had no intentions on forgiving him, Fred says "You really don't care anymore, do you?". _Fuckin' galaxybrain line, that one._ Always hated it because it's so completely the opposite of what anyone with a functioning brain would conclude after what they've been told. But anyway, to Fred's comment, Wesley just leaves peacefully. He doesn't defend himself, he doesn't tell Fred she's wrong, he doesn't do or say anything to clap back at her clearly incorrect assessment of him. He just leaves and allows them to continue hating his guts. He also never brings this moment up again, Angel after recovering, seeks him out and talks to Wesley about it. But Wesley doesn't make a big deal out of it at all. Like, come on, that has to count for _something._ -Immediately after he is released from the hospital, Fred gets possessed by the dimensional slug things and Gunn enlists his help. He does this by busting into Wesley's apartment, berating him angrily for what he did, demanding that he help the people that just abandoned him and wrote him off as a betrayer. So, not Gunn's best moment, to be honest. Fred's in danger tho, so Wesley after finally having the opportunity to physically be able to speak and tell his side of the rift, helps Gunn save Fred. But very understandably tells him never to show up at his place again, because of how Gunn decided to come at him. Again, not Gunn's best moment. -When Angel did forgive him for taking Connor, Wesley refuses to come back to Angel Investigations. Now, this wasn't just for one clear cut reason, you can interpret a couple different reasons that are harmonious. One of those reasons, I found, is that not only did he wish to stay out of his former friends lives because they didn't want him back, he believed he hadn't yet earned forgiveness. Thus, he decided to stay away until everybody forgave him for what he did, including himself. That's an easy one to miss though. -Of course he participates in the memory restoration spell for Cordelia when she comes back to Earth. He could've refused, his relationship with Angel Investigations was at its most tenuous, but he came anyway. To help Cordelia, not to get back in anyone's good graces. And of course he's given grief when he gets there by Gunn mostly and that's when he says his iconic line. However, I don't read it as a gotcha, or a mic drop moment. It's just a... very honest succinct description of how HE sees the past few months of his life. Everyone was so focused on how Wesley betrayed them that they couldn't see how they were betraying him. Which... they did. They didn't hear his side, they didn't try to patch things up with him, they didn't try to hash it out with him. They just berated him, insulted him, told them how badly he hurt them, but they were never really interested in letting him express himself. Which is critical to repairing a relationship, both sides need to be given opportunity to be heard. But his side was never really given that opportunity, so understandably, his position was "I got my throat cut and all my friends abandoned me". Yet, he was still willing to do this spell and help Cordelia, someone who he believed would side with Team Angel and shun him. EDIT: I went back and checked Wesley & Lilah's interactions in Season 4 and I realized you didn't put in some context for him "quipping" with Lilah about taking Connor and how that was tonally dissonant or inconsistent writing for the character. But the fact of the matter is, *he was lying in that moment*. The whole point of that particular interaction was Lilah probing Wes for information on Angel and Wes assuring her that he knows nothing and is no longer associated with Team Angel as a whole. He does this to throw off Lilah and by extension Wolfram and Hart from his true objectives. This is confirmed in the very next episode, when Lilah reveals that Wesley lied in this scene because he found Angel, to which Wesley once again attempts to misdirect her. He says that he only saved Angel because he is necessary to fight great evil, like Wolfram & Hart, which is meant to reaffirm his unwillingness to work for Lilah and mislead her into believing he still doesn't care about Team Angel. When it comes to Lilah and Wesley's interactions, you have to take into account the cross manipulation they're both doing to each other 99% of the time. So using that interaction as evidence against Wesley's character arc is just wrong and missing what's actually being done with the relationship of the two characters and how it effects their individual arcs. (And yes, Lilah does have a bit of an arc. Though she doesn't _drastically_ change, she does _change_ over the course of the show. In large part, thanks to Wesley). These are all *huge* actions he's taking for the people he feels abandoned and rejected him. And he asks for nothing in return, he just does these things because it's right to do and he still cares for these people. And he wants to earn their forgiveness eventually, even if that's never stated outright. I believe all of these actions are Wesley apologizing with his actions, not his words. And I believe they should be accounted for in this assessment of his character arc. Because it's not just what a person says, as Angel famously said "see what matters is what we do". And Wesley has done quite a lot of things to atone for what he did. Through a myriad of bullshit and disrespect flung his way, might I add. So I don't buy that he never apologizes or does anything to make up for what he did, he does. He just never expresses it directly in words, that's all.

[@Melissa-tw2gp]

THANK YOU. Two great points. I really had to watch the love triangle shit through my fingers. It was so cringe whenever Wesley got involved. I’m also extremely aware of how close Joss is and was to Alexis.

[@prettylilly2933]

I loved this video. Thank you!

[@Thetommywestphalluniverse247]

FWIW, as Buffyverse hot takes go, this is also one of my biggest 😂 you have all my support

[@tasha7726]

Mine too. I often felt like I was the only voice screaming into the void about the Connor kidnapping plotline. No Wes, you are not the victim.

[@flootzavut30daychallenge]

Me three!

[@insomnaholic]

What's that old line? We can be critical of the media we consume while still enjoying it? Wes's "dark arc" was always a little uncomfortable for me. You nailed what was bothering me about it.

[@aj7058]

What episode is the clip at 3:45 from?

[@jessicaclarke2408]

I loved the Avatar references mixed in 😂

[@angeliprimlani9389]

Regarding seasons 4 and 5, there are elements that in-story make things emotionally weird. Season 4 and especially the love triangle within is being influenced by the demonic presence and dark magic in the hotel. It’s framed as part of the price of the bad magic they used to bring forth Angelus. They talk about how Angelus is manipulating them and it’s bringing out their worst. And then it’s all swept under the rug in season 5 because no one remembers anything. Like all the way back to Connor’s birth. They all revert emotionally to mid season 3. It’s supposed to be weird. Clearly Fred and Gunn vaguely remember being together and breaking up but they don’t seem to remember what exactly happened. And no one remembers Wes betraying anyone except Angel and Cordelia. It’s explained in universe that everyone’s memories have been constructed by Wolfram and Hart but except for Connor they don’t detail differences. That said a lot of the same things about Wes and his arc bother me and actually the stuff with Illyria bothers me a lot more than the “turgid supernatural soap opera” of season 4. Wes invokes a literal god and ends up being her babysitter. I mean … what the hell?

[@angeliprimlani9389]

Also Lilah rules and always did.

[@qwertywert42]

i didnt think about all this before, and yeah heavily agree with the love triangle points

[@5x5Takes]

it’s so atrocious like who greenlit that at every juncture

[@Thetommywestphalluniverse247]

Also, the way they pour salt on the wound by making Gunn responsible (at least partially) for Fred’s death. I mean in the end his entire character boils down to “thwarted Fresley”

[@flootzavut30daychallenge]

@@Thetommywestphalluniverse247the thing that Fred and Gunn share most deeply: we got screwed over to give Wes character development Me: thanks I hate it

[@kyleellis1825]

I think the love triangle would have worked better if Fred still had the crush on Angel and Gunn/Wes took turns taking Fred out to do stuff, with both of them keeping track of the "epic dates" they went on with Fred. But Fred doesn't even realize those two are having the rivalry over her because she's in her head over Angel. She eventually has her realization speech about not being able to make people fall in love with you and just being happy to have a friend like Angel in her life. Gunn and WEsley share a look and end the rivalry and combine the two date ideas they ahd and jsut go do both things as friends with Fred. Gunn and Fred date, Wesley is sad about it but without the weird possesiveness. Fred and Lilah date. Gunn can't stand to be around Illyria so Wesley does and forms the bond. We still get the finale with Illyria lying to him.

[@ProfessorAragorn]

I do like Wes a lot, but your dislike and the reasons for it are just as valid. I'm right there with you in the stupid love triangle - which almost comes outta nowhere and only solely to alienate Wes so he makes a dumb decision (why not sing in front of Lorne because that's literally the first move they make in every other case - no we gotta have that tension occur as Wes makes the dumbest decision). I think that was the whole point of the memory wipe at the end of season 4. The writers needed a copout to apologize for the last year and a half of storytelling (I basically cringe nonstop from the moment Darla stakes herself until season 5 give or take episodes like Spin the Bottle).

[@r.babylon2885]

For the Wesley character development, no real argument here, but Wes is up there for my favorite characters. For the love triangle, though, hard disagree. Gunn was never stupid. He led his own group for years, and he figures things out quickly in the group. However, his intelligence is a very different kind than Fred's. Wesley and Fred do in fact have much more in common, but as you said, that doesn't necessarily mean they should be together. Wesley was never a good person, to me. But he's trying to be. And I like that.

[@5x5Takes]

I agree! And yet the text oscillates between acknowledging Gunn’s intelligence, and still calling him “the muscle.” But I like your take on Wes too. He was trying to be

[@r.babylon2885]

@@5x5Takes I figured "the muscle" came about because of how Gunn joined up and his nature. True, he was a leader, but he was homeless. So he has no real education, just street smarts. So he understands motives/people and combat. But he's no scientist or mythologist. And early on, they only contacted him for extra help, so, muscle. I could be overthinking it.

[@Katatawnic]

​@@5x5Takes Gunn called himself "the muscle." It wasn't how the others saw him, but rather how he saw himself when his insecurities got the best of him. Because he wasn't educated in science like Wesley and Fred, he couldn't see his own intelligence, so he believed that the others perceived him the same way.

[@Ren_Davis0531]

TLDR: I saw potential in the Wesley/Fred/Gunn love triangle if it was framed around a competing dynamic where Fred has to wrestle with her own dark side personified by Wesley and her noble aspirations personified by Gunn. Missed opportunity to portray it simply as manufactured romance drama where you’re clearly supposed to side with Wesley. Longer Thoughts: My take on the love triangle is that it should have been framed around Fred’s hidden darkness in contrast to her lighter attributes. The episode frames vengeance on her professor as a dark act that would lead to possible corruption. She is told this many times. Yet, she still seeks Wesley’s help to achieve her vengeance and doesn’t think twice about it. I think this is telling because Gunn’s arc is similar to Buffy’s (and Connor’s): am I more than just a weapon? Gunn’s whole trajectory is getting him to a place where he values his life more than just a gun with a death wish. He starts off not caring about whether he lives or dies only to grow into someone who has found reasons that make life worth living. One of those ways that the show dramatized that arc is to have him being the angel on Fred’s shoulder that sought to motivate her into making the noble choice. To let go of your anger and need for vengeance. Meanwhile, Wesley, as the devil on her shoulder, pulled her closer and closer to the baser need to kill her professor to pay him back for all of her suffering. Wesley had no problem with vengeance. He immediately accepted Fred’s desire and encouraged it. This is a potentially very important dynamic in a show with a thematic struggle between rehabilitative justice and retributive justice. If Fred is ultimately going to choose Wesley then I think it needs to be woven together into an arc where she gets more and more comfortable with her own dark side. We need to see her confront her feelings with that revelation. Is she accepting of it or does she later regret that change? Instead they play up the love triangle as typical romance drama where you incentivized to see Wesley end up with Fred. Missed opportunity.

[@Mukation]

Always liked Wesley, but i could never forgive them for killing off Doyle just to replace him with Wesley. Wesley could 100% have been incorporated as the "scholar" that could butt heads with Doyle over demonology and essentially build on eachothers knowledge. Doyle's _litteral_ life experience and "street smarts" vs Wesleys academic background etc. That role of being the street smart guy was something Gunn ended up filling in later seasons. I did enjoy seeing Wesley grow and change over the seasons from just litteral comic relief to a very tragic anti-hero.

[@mariposa9506]

Doyle had to leave because of drugs.

[@Mukation]

@@mariposa9506 And he died of an overdose :(

[@Aquilenne]

They didn't kill off Doyle to replace him. The actor was becoming too difficult to work with.

[@CJPDeQueen]

It shouldn't really be surprising that writing done for a character's arc beginning from 20 years ago is going to hit differently because of the mindset of that time period. So what work then and was pretty much like for the character will now in this time period will obviously be deemed as misogynistic and racist even if that wasn't the intent. Although with the issues with JW, that would likely not be the majority opinion. As for the Wesley, Fred and Gunn love triangle. Well it's not surprising how it was written because that is something of the way JW wants his couples written where they aren't really meant to be happy long-term. Also it's not surprising that a number of people prefer the Fred and Gunn relationship because it's usually the relationships not obvious or were meant as an obstacle for the pairing that the show is aiming for that is like for those reasons particularly many not wanting to be told who to root for. I would have prefer that they actually hadn't written Fred and Gunn together at all however long they took to get Wesley and Fred together because for me the writing was saying that they were the pair that was going to be together and how I like their chemistry. And no I'm not one of those that felt it was that Gunn being a black guy meant he was always going to lose her because the character could have be white and still written as with the same characteristics and it still would have gone the same way. And let's get real, NONE of the love relationships in the buffyverse have been truly written has healthy or happy for a long period so I can't understand the thought that Fred and Gunn's relationship should be seen as different just because of the way it start especially given the way all the buffyverse relationships have gone particularly Willow's who two relationships started out healthy but descended into some forms of toxicity. Still I can acknowledge and accept your feelings regarding Wesley as i have even deeper feelings of disdain and resentment for the character of Spike and how he was written into BTVS (series 4 onwards) and ATS (series 5 only). Regardless of the imperfections with certain aspects of Wesley's arc, I will always considered it one of the best written and definitely the best performed throughout both shows by AD.

[@Scarygothgirl]

I agree with all your points. I still love Wesley. I'd say that I dislike some of the storylines. I tend to skip season four entirely on rewatches.

[@5x5Takes]

extremely fair!

[@hartthorn]

Wes in Angel. Xander in Buffy. Topher in Dollhouse. All of them the Joss stand-in. All eerily toxic and malignant to the vibe. It's interesting unpacking the subtler stuff after the fact. Which one was the Joss stand-in on Firefly? I do also wonder if they had just done something with it like Wes standing by his decision. He never apologized because he still thinks he was right. That even after everything, he makes his case that his decision was the best possible end. (It's been a while, I can't recall the exact details, so I can't remember if they had a reveal of him being explicitly duped). But if they just gave Wes a solid, expressed rationale for his behavior, it'd be SOMETHING.

[@sebrussell]

Weirdly, Topher is the one of those three that doesn't make me cringe ever. I think it might be because unlike Buffy and Angel, the Dollhouse Whedon stand-in is explicitly not a good dude. As far as my memory goes, the text of Dollhouse never defends Topher's bad takes the way that Buffy and Angel seem to side with Xander and Wes in moments it shouldn't. I wonder if Topher is an example of Whedon learning where it's safer to put your weird opinions. In Buffy, you could have Spike say way worse things than Xander without bother people, because he is regarded by other characters as being morally lacking, something Topher is explicitly stated to suffer from in the show. P.S. I can't really think of who the Whedon stand-in in Firefly is. Maybe Jayne? He is the one that spouts the most needlessly sexist shit, and similarly to Topher, you wave it away because the the butt of the joke isn't the woman Jayne is objectifying, but Jayne himself.

[@hartthorn]

@sebrussell that is true. Topher is only in grey morality primarily because he has a sort of "what are my limits?" view of stuff. To him, it's all play. And when the horrors he's enabled get brought to him, he doesn't exactly like it. But he's also asked "did you really not think this shit thru?" My first thought on Joss in Firefly was actually Simon, as the nerdiest crew member with a touch of a superiority complex. But he definitely displays the least "problem" behaviors of the group. He does also have the whole Kaylee angle of "super hot nerd girl loves me, but I'm just OH SO AWKWARD!"

[@person321]

I might just be reaching but I think Wesley was another Joss Whedon insert but just in another show

[@PensiveWhiskers]

I like Wesley but I agree with you on all of this. I was completely and utterly confused by Wesley's plotline in stealing Connor. His decision seemed so irrational to me and clearly morally wrong. I thought that was poor writing (and I hate being critical of a show I love). I feel like even though Wesley has made impulsive decisions before, I thought he had grown past that by developing such a strong bond with the group and learning the value of trust and loyalty. I just hate that plotline so much. I also hated Wesley's jealousy of Gunn. I loved Wesley's and Gunn's friendship and they drove it into the ground. All the jealousy scenes made me really uncomfortable; Wesley came off very creepy. I don't know if the show wanted us to sympathize with him. If they did, it didn't work. I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion but Angel season 3 and season 4 is just a rough ride for me. Even though there is a lot going on, I found myself getting bored on my last rewatch. I know it's very subjective. I couldn't condone Wesley's actions and I felt that the love triangle was out of place and just didn't sit right. Most importantly, I wanted to say: this was an excellent video! I admire the fact that you made a negative video on a beloved character. I think you made really good points (maybe it's because I already agreed with you 😆) and I never felt that irresistible urge to become defensive while I was watching it. I also share your sentiment on Buffy season 7. I hope you keep making videos and continue to share your opinion, whether it's positive or negative. Thank you for your hard work!

[@nathanyou1899]

This was a really interesting video. I'll admit that as a nerdy straight cis bloke who first binged Angel in my late teens I probably over identified with Wes including some of the not great parts. That being said I do think there's something compling about a character who consistently fails to properly learn from his mistakes and keeps having the conquences strip more and more of himself away until there's nothing left, afterall it is in part recklessness and need to prove himself that ends up getting him killed in the finale. While I think most characters should be able to grow and get past their flaws I kind of like the fact that Wesley just gets better at lying to himself about what drives his actions, reflecting that that kind of truma doesn't ever really go away or change only our relationship to it does (something I can personally attest to). Not to say that it's impossible to heal from that kind of truma just to show how easy it is for it to hollow you out (which also highlights his connection to Illirya beyond her looking like Fred, someone who has also lost almost everything). However I think you're right and the narrative does put way too much emphasis on siding with Wes' perspective which both undermines the potential for a more nuanced look at his behaviour and also harms a lot of other characters, particularly as you mentioned Gunn and Fred. In particular the back end of Angel really does a disservice to a lot of its female characters. Part of me feels like without the expectations of writing for a "show about strong female characters"™ Joss allowed a lot his worst tendacys (many of which are present in Buffy just too a lesser degree) to rise to the surface. Still at least we'll always have Willow telling him to grow up in the nicest possible way.

[@MemineAussi]

Wes, IMHO, is how Wheadon sees himself. Wes goes from naive and bumbling innocence to worldly-wise with mad skills. He does more and more terrible things as the show goes on, losing his innocence. He was a good guy, but is not any more. At the end of the show he's condescending to the women around him. He doesn't regret the things he's done or had to do. What really strikes me is Angel. Angel doesn't really respect Wes until Wes kills Wes' father (or a representative of Wes' father). And who was Angel's first victim? His father.

[@windowsVD]

"What really strikes me is Angel. Angel doesn't really respect Wes until Wes kills Wes' father (or a representative of Wes' father). And who was Angel's first victim? His father." That's simply not true, like at all. Angel had already shown respect towards Wes, and we see in Season 3 that he clearly respected his leadership abilities, up until Wes kidnapped Connor at least. When Angel saw Wes being willing to kill his own father to save Fred, no matter how much pain it caused himself, it simply made Angel empathize with his thought process during the whole Connor incident. He understood that Wes was the type to unapologetically protect those he cared about at all cost and takes it upon himself to make hard decisions no matter how extreme.

[@tatianar9429]

I will be pointing people to this video next time I'm required to explain why Wes's corruption arc leaves a lot to be desired. The issue is not the character, or even the arc, but the way narrative frames it. You as a viewer are essentially discouraged to challenge, question or even have a conversation about those choices. You know Wes is in his gray anti-hero era, but the text insists he's actually completely in the right and just tragically misunderstood. And I can't help but think that the main reason Wes is such a favorite of so many fans is class privilege. The received pronunciation and explicit pedigree grant him the leeway the Gunns and the Xanders of the Buffyverse just aren't extended.

[@bernardsoul5186]

It honestly took a second rewatch (in my late 20s) to realize that the only reason I rooted for Wesley was because I was a pedantic "nice guy" nerd myself who thought of myself as always being right and who always fantasized about letting out my "inner darkness" and proving what a badass I could be. Just goes to show what maturity can do to a character's reception

[@tatianar9429]

@@bernardsoul5186 well perhaps if you're an Oxford-educated nerd with cut cheekbones, you might get away with it.

[@folkloreuh]

To me, Wesley seems like an even more pronounced version of the Giles “oh you thought I was a nerd but I’m actually a huge badass” moments. Xander gets a lot of flack for being Joss’s self insert but I feel like this is where Joss’s wish fulfillment really shines through, which is why I have a harder time uncritically loving Giles than seemingly everyone else in the fandom (but that’s off topic.) It’s the whole “simultaneously feel bad for me & bask in the coolness of me” aspect of Wes’s dark arc that makes it almost completely indigestible for me. It’s like the whole thing with that scene where he kinda wants to brag about keeping a woman chained in a closet, it’s less played as something he’s actually ashamed of and more cool how dark & gritty it is.🤮

[@blornblad4381]

Dammit, you made some excellent points. I forgot that Wes never actually apologized for his betrayal. Season 4 was so heavily serialized, it’s like everyone just didn’t have time to sort it out. No breathing room between episodes, and even less between scenes. Then it was completely forgotten by the time they figured out that a possessed Cordy was doing bad things. Maybe the writers were thinking three or four steps ahead, instead of just the one. Missing the forest for the trees and all that.

[@Talisguy]

Season four seems like the writers were never more than a quarter step ahead, to me. Honestly felt like it was made up as it went along. Stuff definitely led into it, but you can _really_ tell that it was rewritten in a massive hurry.

[@manbeast_cs]

I love the episode where Wes pretends to be Angel.

[@RB-vo4gi]

To preface my comment, I’ve seen Angel before, but I don’t rewatch it nearly as much as Buffy. I’ve seen it maybe 2 times total in my life because the storylines just aren’t nearly as interesting. As much as I love some of the characters/character work, it’s not worth it. I know everyone has opinions about the Gunn/Fred/Wesley love triangle, but my opinion is just that I love Fred as a character, by herself. It bothers me that she gets so absorbed in conversations about which guy she belongs with instead of being seen as the awesome character that she is. 19:39 That line is especially egregious because it’s established that Cordelia IS smart. In Buffy, she says that she tests well, and she got accepted into several top schools.

[@Ren_Davis0531]

TLDR: I love Wesley and agree that some things needed to be tweaked to improve his character. I would’ve added more introspection and more reflective conversations with his friends, namely Angel. Also if he is a dark mirror of Angel who is more comfortable with his dark side then he needs more conflict every now and then with Angel to bring the parallel more to the forefront. Everything else I would keep largely the same as I don’t think Wesley should ever grow too far from his darkness. Longer Thoughts: I love Wesley, but I agree with you that Wesley doesn’t get the critical moments where he’s reflecting on his mistakes. His introspection gets lost in the shuffle of Season 4, which is a missed opportunity because two of the underlying themes of that season is family and parenthood (another missed opportunity is the Fred/Gunn and Connor dynamic, but I’ll save that for your Season 4 video), and Wesley’s childhood is tailor made for those themes. Wesley has loads of unpacked trauma stemming from his father similar to Angel. His entire construction of what it means to be a man is born from his need to earn satisfaction from his father. Every source of his failure stems from that. This parallels him with Angel who also had a toxic relationship with his father except Angel was more willing to bask in the disappointment in rejection of his father while Wesley craved the approval from his. They both internalized their negative feelings surrounding their relationships with their fathers and that ultimately informs their entire character in the present. Angel deep down is disappointed in himself, seeing himself as weak and a monster who needs to aspire to something greater than himself to find purpose. Wesley, on the other hand, seeks that approval in other areas from the Watchers to the Scoobies to Angel to Fred. I think that hunger for approval is the source of so much of his darkness, and why I think he firmly needs to be a dark mirror to Angel. He’s the Angel who is more comfortable in his darkness without the noble aspirations of being a champion of the people. He doesn’t have a heroic goal to balance out his darkness. He’s Frankenstein’s Monster or better yet his own Jekyll and Hyde. This relative comfort with his darkness is why Cyvus Vail thinks Wesley would one day cut Angel down to steal his spot in the Black Thorn. What I would tweak for Wesley to perfect his character is add introspection during Season 4 to fully get him to confront his own mistakes and I would weave that into Season 5 as well after he relives the memories of kidnapping Connor. We get the sense that he buries it with the new memories in order to dull the pain like a good glass of bourbon to drown his sorrows. The new memories are there to endure the old memories. He says as much to Illyria. However, I do think a follow up scene between Wesley and Angel is needed to complete the revelation. I also would more conflict between him and Angel. If Wesley is the dark mirror of Angel then I think more conflict is needed to fully realize that parallel. They can genuinely support each other, but every now and then Wesley’s relative comfort with darkness should brush up against Angel’s noble aspirations.

[@joseystrife8780]

To be fair to Wes does he give that line about his throat being slit and his friends abandoning him before or after restoring everyone's memories of Connor because that is extremely important context also I think Joss Whedon just loved torturing his title characters and that's why Angel and Wesley were held to very different standards despite going through similar arcs

[@flootzavut30daychallenge]

That was before the memories were ever taken away. The memory spell didn't happen till either late S4 or early S5 (I can never remember where the episode sits, but I believe it's either the S4 finale or the S5 opener). Wes' "my throat was slit and all my friends abandoned me" BS is early S4.

[@sylvienowak2860]

I am one of whose who consider that Wesley can't be my favorite character. In my rank, he is the last. I always thought that Wesley, besides the fact that he had one of the best growth in the Buffyverse had a dark side...I am agree with all the things you said about him

[@isaidwhatIsaid86]

You should never be afraid to speak your mind. I never understood be bother by people online. If they are not paying your bills, feeding you, or else. No ones opinions really matter. Say what you need to say about the Buffy world and that’s it.

[@thalia9789]

I'm surprised you didn't bring up Wes stabbing Gunn after Fred's death. That shit really pissed me off!

[@olived9560]

Great video!!

[@hannahmetzger4880]

I've _NEVER_ seen Buffy or Angel, but I feel like I _kind've_ want to. One question or two first, though...Is Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel better than Supernatural? I never got into Supernatural, just like how I never got into Buffy or Angel, mainly and simply because those kinds of shows just weren't ever really my cup of tea (until Once Upon a Time). I've always been more into Western cartoons, Japanese anime and cartoon shows and movies. But, if any of you people can give me detailed, bullet-pointed answers as to why or why not you think Buffy and Angel are or are not better than Supernatural and thus, why or why not I should watch them, then I _might_ just give Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel both a _solid chance._ 🙂.

[@5x5Takes]

taste is a subjective thing. i could recommend it to you for all the reasons *i* love it, and it still might not be the show/universe for you! all i can say is try it if you're curious, continue if you want or not

[@flootzavut30daychallenge]

One thing I would say is that while I think S1 of Buffy gives you some important character and world building, and I do recommend watching it, I feel like you wanna give it till at least the middle (preferably the end, but *at least* the middle) of S2 before you decide it's not for you. S1 has some amazing moments and also some incredibly patchy moments, it was a mid season replacement and also almost every episode is meant to be watchable for someone who's not seen any of the previous episodes. I have a lot of affection for it, and at its best it is great, but I know it didn't grab me first time around. S2 the show is really finding its feet, and imo it's a much better metric for whether you'll enjoy the show as a whole than S1 is, if that makes sense?

[@ernestholliday8914]

OH GoD I think I agree!!!!!! Also this show treated Gunn very poorly in general

[@hannahv.boyens]

Thanks for giving voice to something I felt but never understood. Bravo!