Ike Kagetsu is B TIER???

[@Cayden.1]

this is why most ike users need pair up to be consistent tanks, pair up is absurdly underated for that ring

[@DandDgamer]

Waiting for the Timerra propaganda % speedrun

[@redchicken5533]

Great video, might be a nice idea to link the Timerra & Diamant videos for cross reference.

[@rouby7827]

I have tried Kagetsu with Ike on Wyvern and he honestly did not have as much problems as i originally thought. When engaged, archers did 30% of his health, which was quite high, at max per hit(though these were not late-late game snipers). Sure i gave him stat boosters but i also had a second main tank, that being timerroy, and she got about as much as him and he still was an amazing main tank himself. He effectively killed a ton of things with a simple marth-engraved handaxe and did not have the defense and res problems this Kagetsu does have. Swords were only a bit annoying but i had a killer sword for them just in case.

[@tricky2795]

Wyvern Kagetsu would be a better tank than Timerra. 16/2/20 Kagetsu 55 hp, 30 str, 33 dex, 31 spd, 28 def, 18 res, 25 luck, 12 Bld. 18/19 Timerra, 48 hp, 22 str, 28 dex, 30 spd, 27 def, 16 res, 17 luck, 8 bld Superior in every stat, but magic.

[@LP-zn8sc]

Yeah you need to go Wyvern for the flier boost as well. This vid is cap because you would never go Warrior for Ike kagetsu.

[@IcedCoffeeGaming]

Reality is cap. Don't worry I'll post the wyvern one next, it is exactly as you'd expect, you trade damage for durability.

[@neilrapp4741]

I ran Kagetsu Ike on wyvern knight on a 7 man challenge run(fixed growth maddening) and it killed everything but could only tank 4 enemies max on a good day. Especially endgame he couldn’t do it.

[@summoner0005]

Would Blue Skies be a better alternative to Axe Power? During the last test at 17:35 Kagetsu took 7 hits, even at base version he would've taken 21 less damage overall and would've survived, also since the bravery portion doesn't care about what weapons you use he would've killed in the initial test with Ragnell. Also Gentility+ is cheaper than Axe power 5 by 2k sp, the only thing he'd need are bond fragments since he wouldn't need any using Ike. Might be worth testing.

[@LP-zn8sc]

Lol yeah coffee preaches blue skies pretty often but ig not for this mid Build.

[@declanm810]

I’m not the biggest fan of Ike on Warriors, they just have a bit too low bulk imo. Wyvern ends up being slightly more bulky iirc, something like -2 HP, +4 Def, +2 Res for the trade-off of arrow weakness but those builds have generally worked a bit better for me. Ike Wyvern Bouch tho. With his massive HP, and OKish defences performed decently well, but that might have also been partially thanks to a crit engraved Tomahawk + Speed+5 + Gentility/Axe Power

[@theshnoz352]

Diamant my goat, always standing at the top (besides Timerra in your case haha)

[@neilrapp4741]

Was just thinking the same thing!

[@GaiusTulliusCatallusXXC]

This result is unsurprising. I think with his high Speed Kag would like to double tank instead of trying to stack Def. He just doesn’t have the bulk to tank hits with his face. Glad to hear the Diamant call out. I bet if he was Dex stacked and given like Holy Engrave Diamant would tank all this and more. Then again with mixed tanking Kag might as well. Hard to say.

[@tricky2795]

Kagetsu tanks better as a Wyvern, Warrior doesn't have the defense, it's 10% less growth and 2 less base def, so Warrior would have 4 def less at this point than Wyvern.

[@tricky2795]

@@PetraMacneary ICG is doing the "pressure test" which is tanking 6+ units in a turn, so that's already 6 x 3 = 18 less dmg taken. the Wyvern would be more suitable in this test with no visable bow or wind tome enemies in the near vicinity.

[@tricky2795]

@@PetraMacneary Yea, I mostly agree with you. This "pressure test" seems like it's mostly for fun if you don't just use Bonded Shield/Wrath + Vantage to tank nearly unlimited amount of enemies

[@GentlemanGarrote]

What are your thoughts on Ike wyvern knights? They get extra res in Great Aether and I’ve gotten them to high enough defense to where bows do minimal damage because 3x of 1 is still 1.

[@IcedCoffeeGaming]

They can be good, depends on how much damage they take from flyer weakness

[@loffel1700]

Ngl I think Kagetsu!Leif kills everything there (if you inherit wrath). Getting broken was a huge bummer that allowed back up units to chip damage him hard. Leif at least would avoid the break in those situations to get damage on those targets better. You should try it!

[@RaidenKaiser]

Problem with Ike for me is Hector also makes you bulkier but doesn't have the risk associated with being unable to dodge anything and runesword hp leeching kinda op. I think they messed up with Ike making him axe focused and not being allowed to dodge once great aether is activated. I get why you can't dodge while great aether is charging but I think it shouldn't have no dodge aura during the whole engage duration when you use great aether. The only unit ike makes sense for to me is units who arent going to dodge much anyways like general and diamant (due to fair fight)

[@Matteo_nr1_evermore_stan]

It’s so funny to see this video after your previous video on Ikegetsu and you said it was gamebreaking S+ tier 😭💀

[@IcedCoffeeGaming]

This is why we stress test builds :)

[@MasterStacona]

Kagetsu is A tier, very slightly below Boucheron which is also A tier. Boucheron is very good in the end game, he has 25% more hp growth than kagetsu so he will tank better. Kagetsu is a player phase only hit passive, Clanne is player and enemy phase hit passive and he has more strength than kagetsu and is just as fast. The one downside to Clanne, he has a 3-way tie for lowest HP growth, Clanne is very offensive focused, but he has the speed for high avoid. Lucina engrave tomahawk+1 axe griffin boucheron, brings down the weight to 15 and gives him the extra 30 avoid, now he is playing avoid tank with a tomahawk for counter attacking and doubling with that tomahawk unless the enemy unit is also very fast without speed passive and he did it with ike (for the str ring stat really, ring selection does not matter too much as long as he gets strength as a ring stat). Lunar brace for might if you want better avoid and don't mind player phase, axe power if you like enemy phasing more and just want boucheron to be a damage dealer, but less avoid means he will take more damage. Alongside tomahawk, the damage axes will either be Well Axe (probably want lyn for the hit and crit, Well Axe does not have very good base hit, lyn engrave makes the well axe have 100% hit on bouch the entire game) if you want to run a crit build or Brave Axe if you are aiming for fully reliable and player phase kills. Boucheron will still be decent as a warrior, 10% dex, 15% speed class growths - griffin is 15% dex 20% speed - the base str on warrior is very high and it has a high build cap so all of the axes will end up weightless on boucheron. Problem is that there is less base speed compared to griffin and less speed growth (matters more for random growths, on fixed only the griffin base speed matters since things like tomahawk and brave axe will be completely weightless on warrior boucheron)

[@MasterStacona]

@@PetraMacneary He doesn't though, he pops off as a super carry within end game when the enemy units are at their strongest point. And early on, he will get the speed and build level ups which is +2 speed in a single level up ramping up quite quickly. The important part is making sure the speed growth is high with whatever class he is on with good dex growth. Double/quad and high crits will net him kills. Kagetsu needs as much or more might fixing than boucheron. If Kagetsu is a sniper then it is as much as boucheron.

[@MasterStacona]

@@PetraMacneary yes it will and it is, can do it with either lunar brace + or axe power sniper kagetsu it is lunar brace+ sniper boucheron was fine, but you are not really using his build so keep him on axes and axes might fix as well - tomahawk, well axe, brave axe, his passive multiplies with crits and speed

[@MasterStacona]

@@PetraMacneary why wyvern? there is nothing about kagetsu where that is beneficial. Sniper is a crit class and kagetsu is a crit unit, his hit passive makes him more accurate vs fliers. Sniper results in his highest damage output and works with what the unit has to offer. Boucheron is a fast unit.

[@MasterStacona]

@@PetraMacneary you need to give it another chance, that was first thoughts on sniper too. No you don't need speed passives for fast units to double, you are using the wrong units and using fast units on the wrong classes.

[@MasterStacona]

@@PetraMacneary only need a corrin engrave killer bow and longbow, go pew pew, enemy die enemies boucheron cannot double, then crit them, or use your hard hitters to one shot them you are just being intentionally dumb not using strategy in a strategy game You might as well said the best way to beat chess is by lifting weights.

[@AmonDevilman]

I have invested in Diamant so I don't know if I should keep using him or just go Kagetsu. Also, where do you fit a Sage in a team comp when you have Ivy?

[@IcedCoffeeGaming]

Diamant can be good, you can run extra sages too Ivy can be used on any team comp

[@marioteik]

Isn't the build wrong for him? It feels like something like vantage + wrat and a crit weapon would suit him better. Or wyvern diving and removing the strongest opponent and repositioning with canter+ to mitigate the damage taken.

[@IcedCoffeeGaming]

Van Wrath could be better here

[@MasterStacona]

Warrior is a damage class, no where near a tank class. I did ike on axe griffin boucheron, it was good for the entire game, don't recommend ike on fast units though. Boucheron doesn't get doubled on ike and has high res as a griffin for the mages. highest damage class is berserker, berserker has a lot of flaws to it.

[@Uselessansatz57]

Using Kagetsu on Warrior feels like it makes the analysis far too narrow. Having personally used Kagetsu in a build nearly identical to your Merrin Wolf Knight Ike build (Gentility+, Speed+5, Corrin Steel Dagger+4), I can say that he was eminently competent -- as would be expected, given that he and Merrin have almost identical stats. I did give him Dracoshields and Talismans admittedly -- as one should when making a tank -- and thanks to Wolf Knight's respectable res cap he can actually use them, unlike Warrior's atrocious cap of 16 for Kagetsu. That would mean the mages here were hitting much harder. Meanwhile he has the exact same defense base in both classes and his def growth is only 5% lower in Wolf Knight. Also, Kagetsu has Axe Power instead of Gentility/Blue Skies, cutting his bulk even more. Additionally, given that he has been forced into swords/axes he can be broken, allowing chain attacks to further accumulate. None of this is to say that Timerra isn't also a great tank -- in fact I've loved using her with Sigurd and Lyn. Almost any 1-2 range physical attacking enemy phase tank is going to be relying on rng to get ORKOs against nonmagical enemies, and Timerra's sandstorm works wonders in that regard, especially because it can be better than a crit against really high defense enemies in the lategame. Also lances getting broken by inaccurate axes is another point in Timerra's favor, when using a tank emblem other than Ike. Lastly, even if her strength itself is a little lacking the combo of the speed to not be doubled and good mixed defenses is great. Off topic, the only 1-2 range self sufficient tank I've managed to make who can kill almost everything (armors included) without RNG was an abominable DLC Hector!Vidame!Celine w/ Bravery+ and Sword Power 5 who got starsphered and statboosted to oblivion, because her stat caps are way higher than her growths would have me believe and enemies with high res have low HP and vice versa.

[@LP-zn8sc]

Yeah this video feels way more biased than most of his other analysis. I've never seen anyone preach this build for Kagetsu, it's straight up bad.

[@IcedCoffeeGaming]

I'm sure he could run Gentility and be similar to Merrin ike tank, but Merrin Ike tank couldn't tank this region and if we run Gentility he loses 5 damage per hit and will not be consistently killing at 1-2 range. I was tanking this region without gentility on Roy on Timerra so it isn't needed to achieve this.

[@Uselessansatz57]

​@@IcedCoffeeGaming After running some calcs because I do not have the relevant save still, it looks like the main way a unit can actually survive here is by removing the chain attacking swordmasters (or Pair Up). If you cannot do that then this is nigh impossible, given that the second swordmaster, two mage knights and tomahawk great knight alone will deal ~70% of the unit's health with just chain attacks, and the next two great knights will finish the job if there's still an opening solely from chain attack damage. Assuming IL 34 Wolf Knight Kagetsu (as I believe the Warrior here is IL 34), with only Gentility, Speed +5 and a Speed +2 meal (Total speed 41), Kagetsu will defeat both swordmasters if he doubles and crits one time. On fixed kagetsu is painfully 0.2 speed away from doubling the silver sword wielder, but if he simply attacks once on player phase and again on enemy phase then a +4 corrin steel dagger has a 38% crit chance against the swordmasters, so he has a ~62% chance to defeat each of them. If the swordmasters are gone then Kagetsu can tank the 2 mage and 3 great knights with some health leftover, assuming BL 20 Ike and 2 dracoshields+talismans (which is what I gave him as my main tank). Similarly, Timerra also must defeat those swordmasters to survive, and looking back at the Timerroy video, the chance of a sandstorm (35%) or crit (8%) on each attack is ~40%, almost exactly the same as Kagetsu's wrath-free crit chance, and given that she also cannot double the silver sword wielder but can double the blade wielder and needs either a single crit or sandstorm over the course of two attacks to kill both swordmasters the situation is essentially exactly the same. In the video Timerra gets both of those ~64% chances to kill each swordmaster and goes on to perform wonderfully, in particular shining against the great knights who she can actually kill with sandstorm/crits, unlike Wolf Knight Kagetsu who can only deal 5 Blue Skies+ damage if Eirika is engaged. To loop back to the video at hand, Kagestu performs particularly poorly here because he is a low defense/res axe wielder who struggles to effectively kill Swordmasters because of break/speed/accuracy/low crit. Wyvern Kagetsu would also absolutely perform better here, as another commenter mentioned, if only because of lack of flier effective enemies, better weapon triangle control (which is very important for Ike tanks because they cannot dodge), 3 more speed, identical strength, 7 more defense, 4 more dex, and 4 more Res. Ultimately I'd still prefer Timerroy over other Kagetsu options, but this warrior Kagetsu showing is quite likely not his best, and both Wolf Knight and Wyvern would outperform IMO. (All stats taken from triangleattack, assuming immediate reclassing from swordmaster).

[@summoner0005]

So if Kegetsu is a worse Lapiz and he's A tier, she's that make her B tier?

[@MrMorflight]

So he has awesome damage but lacks speed... huh, and here I thought speed fixing was easier. Did Reddit lie to me ?

[@Kylesico912x]

Okay, at this rate we’re just going out of our way to troll the anti-Timera blasphemers on Reddit.

[@Noobieedu]

Iced coffee science 😎

[@IcedCoffeeGaming]

Today on Mythbusters, Adam and Jamie scrutinize Kagetsu as BEST BOI IN GAME

[@LP-zn8sc]

"This is the best possible class for this build" according to who? reddit? Wyvern is just like straight up stronger objectively.

[@IcedCoffeeGaming]

If you want him killing things. Wyvern has flyer weakness and less damage, but ok I'll switch him on that and we can observe the same results.

[@enny7377]

Yeah I had a feeling this would happen. Glad I didn't try to copy the build as soon as you released that other video. Timer-ike-a for life.

[@enny7377]

@@PetraMacneary but her res is way better and she kills more attackers on enemy phase than kagetsu, which reduces the threats against her.

[@enny7377]

@@PetraMacneary warrior kagetsu caps out at 16 res. Timerra picket caps out at 23. At the same level, she's gonna have about 4 res more than kagetsu here. And she can tank the first four enemies on this map without great aether, kagetsu can't. Maybe he does better on wyvern, but it's clear that this build is not able to tank as well as timerra in most cases. And timerra can do crit shenanigans just like kagetsu can, but she gets sandstorms on top of it.

[@enny7377]

@@PetraMacneary @PetraMacneary for one, I want to say I'm sorry, you're right about that for internal level 40. However, at internal level 44, timerra is already starting to see even better dividends on def and res, and can easily one round with a single sandstorm and a +4-5 javelin, or better yet Ragnell for the defense boost. No crit required. the only issue is that she can't double the swordmasters. But that's not unique to her really. As long as she doubles, she only needs a single sandstorm to kill most of the time. And that's on top of potential crits she can get. Goldmary is never gonna have the damage, speed, and bulk that timerra has. If you can demonstrate her killing everything at level 44 using ike or roy or whatever, and she's tanking 4-5 units at a time on chapter 23, then I'll believe it.

[@enny7377]

@@PetraMacneary you make a very good case here, but timmera will always have sandstorm over Goldmary who has the exact same strength as he on Griffin Knight. If Ragnell is really that bad, then perhaps timerra roy really is her best tanking option so she can use binding blade. Either way, gentility plus fixes damage and tanking, and on ike it removes the need for her to use heavy weapons like ragnell. She can simply tank everything, heal on the next turn, and finish off anything she didn't double or sandstorm crit. Even Goldmary can't do that.

[@leoerus]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NOOOOO

[@LP-zn8sc]

This is a bit much coffee. You need to run this build in flier not warrior. That way you get the res boost from ike. He also needs pair up or whatever its called or he'll get taken down by chain attacks especially on big great aethers. Although personally i like comboing great aether with bonded shield anyway. But if he can be hit by chains and is in a objectively worse class yeah the build is gonna be mid.

[@IcedCoffeeGaming]

So we run him on Ike with Pairup as a passive and what, SPD+5 so he can double or Axe power 5 so he can actually kill things? You can't have both. I'm sorry the truth hurts

[@LP-zn8sc]

​@@IcedCoffeeGaming idk I've run pair up axe power Wyvern kagetsu on Ike and he performed fine. But really what I'm getting at is that showing a video where you put a good character in a bad build and say its the best possible build is a little too much for me.

[@JustLoki35]

Kagetsu? More like MIDgetsu

[@IcedCoffeeGaming]

lol

[@kevton1397]

And I thought I was possibly doing something wrong when I'm trying Ike Kagetsu on Wyvern Knight instead. Just hope I'm not in the wrong for not using Diamant because I heard how mid his stats can be despite looking like he's a decent Ike tank (especially when you pointed out how he can tank better than Kagetsu in that case to your video).

[@personontheinternet2164]

I deliberately didn’t watch this video when it came out because I wanted to enjoy the comment salt and it was worth the wait 😂

[@MNtoCali]

I think ike is just bis for Veyle

[@MyLux777]

Soren*

[@MNtoCali]

@@MyLux777 Soren isn’t kagetsu

[@MyLux777]

@@MNtoCali kagetsu is not what you said

[@MNtoCali]

@@MyLux777 Kagetsu is video

[@MyLux777]

Apparently not cause you said veyle

[@MasterStacona]

I did test out kagetsu. He is level 17, gets the exp of a level 17, and has the stats of a level 17 swordmaster when you get him; all of his stats are based on CLASS base stats, character growths, and class growths anyone with the same growths and class growths as him will have the same stats at level 17. (Zelkov and Ivy appear at 17 when you get them as well.) There is no such thing as character base stats, only Vander is a modified unit.

[@End3r.]

How did you test this to determine Kagetsu is 'level 17?' I went into a skirmish to test this. I take base Zelkov, a level 17 unit, and kill one of the level 16 Sword Fliers directly in front of the spawn position. Zelkov receives 11 EXP. This makes sense. Zelkov is 1 level higher than the target, so he receives 11 EXP. I do the same with Kagetsu on the same Sword Flier and receive 13 EXP. No inheritance, no player proximity to anyone who might have something (I don't even have Byleth so obviously no Mentorship). Clearly base Kagetsu is not 'level 17' and is one level lower, which matches all known data about the game's units.

[@MasterStacona]

Boucheron doubles with ragnell against that elsurge as a griffin =)