ICONS ~ GRAVEN IMAGES OR NECESSARY FOR SALVATION?

[@nancyincanada5553]

"We do not venerate the wood, the paint of the icon; but rather the image of the one who is portrayed there. It's the image that we venerate. Not the physical substance itself." Brilliant, thank you Father. I kiss my dear deceased mother's photo, and do so because I love and miss her. I know there is no life in that paper/photo, it's my mother that I am remembering, kissing, and thanking. It's the same with the icons.

[@TheB1nary]

It’s funny, but when I think of this as a Protestant it makes me wonder how I could be so silly in my previous responses to icons. All Protestants have them in the images of their loved ones, sports stars etc etc.

[@lucycastro9428]

Amen! Well said 🙏

[@Oilofmercy]

@@TheB1nary I'm protestant but am orthodox by birth and have icons from my orthodox parents. I live them. Ive had many a protestant try to take them away Honestly they are not even willing to understand. People are so easily brain washed without doing their own research.

[@cryosteam3944]

@@dimazanya2568 just say you don’t comprehend simple explanations and be on your way

[@acemanley111]

@@Oilofmercy are you orthodox or Protestant as of now ?

[@lasagna3084]

I have one foot out the door of Protestantism and feel I’m walking towards the Orthodox Church. The stress of how to approach my wife and family about it is hard. Thanks for your videos. They have been a huge blessing.

[@benjaminberg7239]

I'm in the same boat brother!

[@StCausesARuckus]

I hope you did it. I did

[@karkkimarkkinat2109]

Where are you now? I was baptized a few weeks ago myself. One of the best decisions of my life ☦️

[@cosmicchange660]

@@karkkimarkkinat2109 amen God bless

[@isaaccutlip5815]

Are icons in the Bible or holy water though

[@Србомбоница86]

Always carry Orthodox icons if you are traveling or going to hospital ,it's extremely beneficial ,I have many of them and cherish them and love them all,I feel peace looking at them:)

[@jackcarver509]

Земљакињо, пошто пратиш оца Спиридона, да ти препоручим још неке сјајне стране православне канале (можда већ и знаш за њих): Mull Monastery Trisagion Films PatristicNectarFilms (fr. Josiah Trenham)

[@silversurfer2703]

I still don't get it, how are icons beneficial and bring comfort to you?

[@MikhalisBramouell]

@Broelius "And thou shalt make two cherubim _graven in gold,_ and thou shalt put them on both sides of the propitiatory." (Exodus 25,17)

[@MikhalisBramouell]

@Broelius You call Moses an idolater. You should repent, "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" (John 5,46-47)

[@xmc7189]

I set Theotokos and Christ icons as wall pspers on my phone screen. It's the easiest way to carry an icon around with you.

[@anna14campbell]

Long before l even knew orthodoxy l felt so driven to icons whenever l saw them. Today l paint icons myself. It's source of a lot of joy but also thinking and praying. Glory be to God❤️

[@enzolovesthesun]

that’s amazing! do you have a instagram where i could see them? :)

[@joelandrew9688]

Written, icons are written not painted, but I'm sure you new that and was just a typo

[@anna14campbell]

@@joelandrew9688 not everyone strictly follows saying that

[@JimmyDixon-d7d]

@@anna14campbell I’d refer to what the church calls them. And I have no idea what they call it lol js.

[@klv7442]

Icons - visual gospel. I like that.

[@nancyincanada5553]

@KLV me too:) Thank you, Father Spyridon, for these words of wisdom.

[@thisistheway7529]

Yes, but nothing farter than that....

[@goosebump8722]

@Marriage4life if CHRIST is your teacher, you don’t need icons!

[@Orthodoge]

@Marriage4life he is the Icon of the Father so yes he did

[@karkkimarkkinat2109]

@Marriage4life yeah, Jesus did. Are you Jesus?;

[@antonkirani2758]

Lord Jesus Christ , Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner. Thank you for your words Father.

[@Mark-yb1sp]

This is probably the most ‘clear’ understanding I have ever had about this subject. I am a new catechumen and this makes good sense. Thank you.

[@datevinjejikian6431]

Father Spyridon, Please mention us (The Armenians) in your prayers.

[@SAW1A1UFO]

@Traian Craciun what will happen to the turkish?

[@SAW1A1UFO]

@Traian Craciun isn't it true, according to the scriptures, that a true prophets prophecies never are false? Then profecies needs to be fulfilled.

[@a.b.37-f9v]

@@SAW1A1UFO yes, I thought that as well. Biblical prophesy MUST be fulfilled in The Father's timing, right?

[@SAW1A1UFO]

@@a.b.37-f9v Yeah! Christ said i say these things so that when they happen you will believe me. That's one example... If i recall correctly

[@margyrowland]

@Traian Craciun All in God’s time......true prophets are just that

[@betsymarchand9700]

Thank you Father Spyridon. What an incredible blessing you are. I just discovered you and your videos on KZbin and have been binge watching them. They are wonderful; full of encouragement and admonition that all of us can benefit from. In your kind way you call us to draw near to God and bear fruit. The love of God beams through you to all of us. God brought me to Orthodoxy 11 years ago after searching for the Ancient Church for about 30 years. I thank God for all men like you who are fighting the good fight of faith; the true faith. Much, much love to you from Maryland, U.S.

[@text067]

Excellent explanation Father Spyridon. I can not imagine our churches without our beautiful icons. Thank you for your teachings and wisdom. ✝️

[@ivygarcia9525]

Praise God! I grow profoundly in love with our Holy Orthodoxy every passing day! Thank you Father Spyridon. 🙏

[@megaloschemos9113]

Hope you are keeping well Fr. Spyridon

[@darrientwyman1309]

Slowly leaving protestantism and entering orthodoxy. Thank you for your videos

[@andyontheinternet5777]

You're not entering Orthodoxy; you're entering 8th-century semi-Paganism.

[@darrientwyman1309]

@@andyontheinternet5777 Are you a Protestant?

[@darrientwyman1309]

@@andyontheinternet5777 Are you a Protestant?

[@Melancholian]

​@@andyontheinternet5777 nah

[@Melancholian]

You baptised? God bless you

[@glendamcgee1779]

I was taught that icons were very wrong - these videos confirm an objection I had to those teachings - I always like them anyway.

[@blade7506]

what is that objection?

[@glendamcgee1779]

@@blade7506 The objection was the notion that the religious icons were "false idols."

[@joelandrew9688]

​@@glendamcgee1779 they are a continuation from the old testament faith to the new

[@NJP9036]

Thank you Father Spyridon.

[@nubSawace]

I'm struggling with Exodus 20:4 You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below

[@petros-petra]

Keep on reading. God commanded to make Golden Cherubim for the Tabernacle in Exodus 25. The temple was filled with graven images.

[@tsigk1651]

Thank you father for life giving word, from Ethiopia

[@whiteafricannun3377]

He isn't God. Why are you worshipping a man?

[@nomore9004]

@@whiteafricannun3377 I dont think he is

[@blade7506]

@@whiteafricannun3377 he’s not worshipping him

[@joelandrew9688]

​@@nomore9004 the dude was saying "thank you for the life giving word, and that he is from Ethiopia"

[@dannywoody7266]

God bless your father and thanks always for a positive message of hope and faith from the Bangkok Airport

[@VC_333]

God bless you. You are truly a teacher.

[@icxcnika555]

icons and saint are the topics i argue with my prostestant parent's the most 😔

[@joelandrew9688]

Best to show them by trying to live an orthodox life

[@Elany.lyon1388]

Thank you , I am new to Orthodoxy this encourages me.

[@traditionalfascists3303]

Good luck in your journey home!

[@harrihuovinen9706]

Amen, Father, Amen!

[@daydreamerbeliever130]

I bought an icon for the first time, an Eleusa icon of the Theotokos. Saw it in the orthodox study bible and it made me cry thinking about the mercy of God. It’s a bit surreal my heart has softened to these things of the triune God. Pray for my journey into orthodoxy.

[@evans3922]

Ιf you see the icons of Theotokos she always shows towards her Son Jesus Christ.. She is the Odigitria-Directress.. As st. Paisios used to say:grab steadily from Panagia's dress and you will be saved... Pray to Our Most Holy Lady Virgin Mary and she will guide you safely into Her Son's True Church...brother... Blessings

[@elijahyoung11]

@@evans3922 should I buy an icon of Jesus first?

[@evans3922]

@@elijahyoung11 are you Orthodox? Of course you can buy an icon of Jesus Christ and an icon of our Most Holy Virgin Mary plus a Holy Cross.. These are essential icons

[@elijahyoung11]

@@evans3922 lol thank you for the reply. I’m not even a catechumen yet but am trying to convert from atheism/ agnosticism to orthodoxy. Unfortunately I don’t have the courage to tell my parents that I’m not an atheist anymore. I’m 17 y/o Maybe that is just my worry that I used to be a Protestant and they’re Protestants as well and I’m not sure how they would receive the fact that I’m convinced of orthodoxy. Also, do you have a recommended English translation for the Bible for Orthodox? OSB? LXX Septuagint+Orthodox NT? Anyways, sorry for the rambling, God bless! 😊

[@evans3922]

@@elijahyoung11 God bless you brother. You are on the right path...Praise the Lord for He has led you towards Orthodoxy,His true Church the ancient Apostolic Church till today... Now regarding your worries about your family I think you must be very cautious proceeding very slowly and first you must turn 18 to be fully adult and responsible for your own decisions.But becoming steady on your faith in Orthodoxy is what you must care for primarily, before talking to your parents .. I don't know if you have ever visited an Orthodox parish and church...Is there any orthodox church in your city?...have you ever attended a divine Sunday Orthodox Liturgy? if not, you should ...this is important to help you feel the essence of Orthodoxy...then you may want to talk to the local orthodox priest for some questions...in most orthodox churches there is a coffee offered after the Sunday Liturgy and there you will be warmly accepted and you may meet some catechumens too. I am sure you have visited orthodox sites in the web and youtube.there are plenty of them as this one here ....also..Fr.Josiah Trenham is a well known orthodox priest..check his channels and sites www.saintandrew.net/administration about the Bible as far as I know in english there is no specifically Orthodox translation most Orhodox Churches use the New King James Version..I would recommend you the Orthodox Study Bible with comments plus some morning and evening orthodox prayers..this is excellent according to me..check it here: www.orthodoxmarketplace.com/esss/category/bibles?startpage=2 www.worldhistory.biz/download567/The_Orthodox_Study_Bible_-_St.pdf you can in fact read it here as PDF www.ocf.net/10-ways-to-grow-in-your-faith-in-2019/ Praying for you brother...may God enlighten you and safely guide you to His Orthodox Church..blessings

[@saldomino1639]

Well said father ! The Icons not only draw us closer to the heavenly realm but pushes our faith to Father, Son , and Holy Ghost thank you !

[@Bullheadrecords]

I got my first icon not to long ago. It’s one where Jesus is holding an infant. every time I look at that icon, all I can think about is Gods love for us. We are his children and it strangely always makes me think of the parable of the prodigal son. ☦️☦️

[@alvarengasoso]

Thanks for all these great sermons! Every each one of them really helps me.

[@andyontheinternet5777]

"Not only are icons permissible, they are necessary." - This is heresy!

[@petros-petra]

No. See Nicea II.

[@andyontheinternet5777]

​@@petros-petra Nicaea II was a farce! It overthrew a previous ecumenical council under direct pressure from Empress Irena, a woman who cut out her own son's eyes and is suspected of murdering her husband. You will not find a single church father who supported icon veneration until after 500 AD, not to mention the Bible's constant warning about idolatry and images (2nd commandment). Icon veneration is the poison of John of Damascus and his semi-pagan teachings.

[@jssxsolo9850]

Many people who are against icons have crosses in their home, around their neck, and even hanging on their car mirror. I ask, if one is to be against icons, shouldn’t the same be applied to the use of the cross? Many Protestant churches have one in their churches, some bow before it , some hold the necklace in times of need, and some equate it’s presence in their car as protection. There are also artistic images made of heaven and hell, which if taking the scripture as one who is against icons would not be allowed. I sense some hypocrisy, veneration is not worship. And remembering what Christ did one the cross by having a cross is not breaking the law either. What breaks the law is believing that the cross and icons is the actual ESSENCE of God, that the divine nature of God comes FROM the icons and the cross. But of course, we know this to not be true.

[@alexanderstauber]

It depends what the cross stands for. I for example think that crosses will neither protect you, your car nor your home. I bought an orthodox cross necklace few weeks ago (as a protestant) because i find it beautiful and i wear it as a symbol so people know i am a christian. The church i go to also has a cross, but my pastor said it doesn't have any power, it is only a symbol. We also don't pray towards it. Orthodox speak with the person that is on the icon but "there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus". God hates it when we put our faith in people instead of him.

[@jssxsolo9850]

@@alexanderstauber - [ ] Do you understand how hypocritical that sounds? And we know who the mediator is, those icons itself, the wood, the painting, did not die on the cross for us. You are mistaking icons for the actual essence of God.

[@tttdrr2293]

During covid we are denied to worship in our church, so let us be like the early Christian and revert to the caracombs to pray. The catacombs being our home with Holy images. We will leave the catacomb but we must pray in the mean time and venerate the Icons. God Bless,

[@NMMD1531]

Thank you!!!

[@pitAlexx]

I got icons in my home. Can't pray to them. I simply can't, my heart won't let me pick them up and pray. I can't do it. I like having them as signs of my faith, as reminders, as giving honor. But I can't pick one up, kiss it and start praying. I pray to God, I trust the Holy Spirit to make intercession for me. And so, I cannot find my place. Whoever is orthodox here will already make an idea of me, but so will whoever is protestant or of other denomination that thinks differently about the icons. All I know is this: I grew up with Orthodoxy, Ray Comfort (from Living Waters channel) was the one that made me repent and call for Jesus. I am not sure what he is, but he has books criticizing the Catholic Church and its on similar matters. You are both missing something, I am sure of it. Why would God send him to call me back to Him, instead of a priest orthodox? I have 2 Churches nearby, I can't even count how many are in my city alone (7 I know of which I pass by regularly) - it makes no sense. Perhaps it's that Orthodox Christians do not practice evangelism (I have not seen one), like calling unbelievers to repent, reaching the lost.

[@maryh2237]

Alex, the same thing happened to me. As a ex catholic I have always felt that praying before statues and images was very wrong,and this was before I had read it in the bible. I thank god for saving me from the grave sin of idolatry. God bless you.

[@Orthodoge]

@@maryh2237 guys🤦🏻‍♂️orthodoxy doesn’t teach praying “to” icons. And giving them veneration is like having a picture of your spouse and kissing it. Is that adultery? Please look further into Orthodoxy 🙏🏻

[@Orthodoge]

Please look further into Orthodoxy brother🙏🏻

[@dustindustindontworry-jz8dh]

I was blessed by your comment. The Spirit of the Living God is what keeps you from bowing , kissing and praying with icons. We walk by faith and not by SIGHT (icons/images).

[@dustindustindontworry-jz8dh]

@@Unseen_warfare. Where in the Scripture were the Israelites instructed to kiss the Cherubs on the curtains or the Cherubim statues??? Secondly, where were Israelites instructed to make statues of cherubs or their forefathers to be placed on personal home altars for the purpose of "veneration"?

[@MikhalisBramouell]

Father, bless.

[@lucycastro9428]

Praise God for His limitless love for us! Praise God for all He is and all He does! Glory to God for ever!!! 💖

[@GrandeSalvatore96]

Praying for you, brother. Inshallah you can be a light for your family and those around you showing them truth.

[@bryanwilliams6032]

Fr. Spyrdion I'm catholic and know that church is evil and I've been seeking to find the first church and have been drawn to orthodoxy pray for me.

[@LucasRoggenkamp]

"I do not worship matter, I worship the God of matter, who became matter for my sake and deigned to inhabit matter, who worked out my salvation through matter. I will not cease from honoring that matter which works for my salvation. I venerate it, though not as God." -St John of Damascus

[@samlawson6507]

Thank you Father Spyridon for this video. So interesting, educational, & filled with passion.

[@georgeabraham4285]

It's a long stride from the hand that keeps living havens outside, perpetuate health and balance to getting stuck on a dried finger in a bottle, or a heart, or a crown of thorns.. These relics serves a distraction.. like Jewish festivals and holidays from the Sabbath.. in the current times we are prone to this but even more so, self worship.. If times of imbalance arrives, when God remembers his promise to the faithful.. will there be still people who seek his voice and stillness...

[@TheBnaja]

Thank you Father

[@margyrowland]

The TRUE PRESENCE is the centre of my faith. Of course icons and relics are essential. Love from an Australian Catholic 🇦🇺

[@dteun]

Hi father you are the father that pulls me in the direction of Christianity would like to ask you to talk about the prophet Jonah, by for hand thank you.

[@thomasdykstra100]

"Imitate me, as I also imitate Christ...."--the Apostle Paul, 1 Corinthians 11.1ff... The Apostles held that suffering, sacrifice, sacrament and symbol were real as practically defined by Christ Jesus in His holy implementation of them--His living Presence an effectual parable for us to imitate. The Book of Hebrews finds in Christ's person and practice the culmination of living faith, which displays the perfection of man's purpose and vocation. In this way, He presents--as man's Interpreter--the counterpart to His exact representation of the Father (John 1); both man and God find their identities revealed in the dynamic model and moral pattern of Christ's Incarnation. "This is My Son, in Whom I am well-pleased; follow Him!"

[@nickmarystilos8978]

God bless you father spiridon

[@book3100]

It's like the little picture of me next to these words. It's not really me, but you get an idea of me being here.

[@truthislight9460]

Though Father's many teaching I accept and value but disagree on this matter.

[@stevemiller929]

Based Father Spyridon.

[@alexanderbielski9327]

Man I want to be an orthodox but this part has the tiniest hang up I can’t get past. The icons being “necessary for salvation” instead of only jesus can bring salvation is worrisome. If it were purely a respect thing and maybe only the apostles id be more comfortable. I get I’m being a Protestant about it but it does say not to bow before anyone but god. I don’t see a way around that but who am I 😂

[@alexanderbielski9327]

@MermaidMonarchist in this context is icon veneration leaning on the law for salvation?

[@zachrobertson684]

That part seems odd to me as well. I've never read, heard, or come across anything to indicate their necessity for salvation. There's nothing in the Gospels that indicate so either.

[@Publius-24]

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

[@thekittenfreakify]

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing this knowledge.

[@Who63]

Catholics do not worship idols, but have a long tradition of using statues in our churches, because thousands of years ago, people were not able to read and write. The average person could not read and understand the stories in the bible for themselves, until the early 1900’s. Priests and scribes were the only people in the church who were educated enough to read and understand the bible. Therefore, the church used statues, paintings and stained glass windows to visually portray the stories in the bible and show what people from that time period may have looked like. The stained glass windows in a church often depicted the stories from Jesus’ life visually, so that everyone, including little children, could understand who Jesus was.

[@Who63]

Catholics often decorate statutes of Mary with roses and flowers to honor her memory. Sometimes we sing songs about Mary or carry a statue or picture of her in a procession. To a casual observer it may appear that Catholics are worshiping a statue of Mary, but this is simply a way that Catholics show her honor. God honored Mary too, by sending the angel Gabriel to tell her she was “full of grace” and ask her to bear his son. Jesus also honored Mary, was obedient to her as a child, and did what she asked when he turned the water into wine at the wedding at Cana. Jesus especially honored Mary from the cross when he gave his mother to us “Woman, behold your son” and to his disciple “behold your mother”. John 19: 26-27

[@Who63]

Our statues of Jesus, Mary and the saints are ways that Catholics honor and preserve their memory, through visual means in our every day life. Remember the expression, “out of sight, out of mind?” As Catholics, we never want Jesus, and Mary, and the example of the saints to be out of sight or out of mind, but be forever enduring in our hearts, and in our every day lives.

[@dustindustindontworry-jz8dh]

@Marriage4life Amen

[@bobbywiddattool6966]

I can understand having an icon of Jesus, but I’m stuck on having icons of Mary and saints. If I’m praying and bowing towards these icons it feels wrong

[@anthonyp6055]

Yeah I can understand that. In Orthodoxy we have dulia, hyperdulia and latria. Dulia is given to Saints and Angels, hyperdulia to the Mother of God, and latria to the Holy Trinity. If you ever like, you can search up the Confession Of Dositheus or Synod of Jerusalem(1672), this Confession/Synod helps articulate our Church's teaching on iconography and sainthood.

[@johnnyd2383]

In my opinion, there are three main reasons why contemporary Protestants reject Holy Icons: 1. They are semi-Gnostics and reject any notion of God manifesting Himself through material means. 2. They feel insecure because they are not at home (members of Holy Orthodox Church). Fear of "idolatry". 3. They do not place Lord Christ Jesus in the center of the OT. Their interpretation of the OT is not Christocentric.

[@Србомбоница86]

They for sure feel insecure and scared (deep down they know they are not home)

[@dustindustindontworry-jz8dh]

4. They worship in Spirit and Truth, thus don't need statues of wood and stone. 5. They prefer to venerate God the Father and Jesus Christ alone and won't share that veneration with any other.

[@michaelvatson7056]

3:30 The things of the tabernacle were ordained by God, not man, not to mention that, God said his spirit will be in the tabernacle. See for yourself what man did when he did things his own way, the golden calf in the wilderness, the whole books of Judges and Kings and the prophets books. The debate about icons were between men, and we have the results today. As someone points the finger to an image and say, "this is my mother", so did the ancient pagan people, "this is Chemosh", or "Diana", or "Zeus". An object to represents something. Arron did not said about the golden calf, this is the "matter" that took you out of Egypt, but, this is your gods. So, it points to something. But people make of these icons more than what these are. As words on paper, so are images. How greate was the temple, yet it was destroyed. And yet, people trust in icons, as if, these are sentient, and somehow, can channel and elevate mankind, making the object itself a device of divination instead of trusting Jesus Christ to elevate and save and teach. Sure, make icons, paint the buildings, hang crosses everywhere. But when someone says, "you're not in Christ", because you did not kiss the icon, or did not bow down and did not made a cross before it, that person stole Christ from you (for those who believes such). Icons are just that, painting on things. These have no eyes to see nor ears to hear, nor are filled with "spiritual energies" that could miraculously do miracles, as if these are sentient. They are no more than artistic values, representation values, and material values, unless, Thus says the Lord. If one wants to pray, pray to God. One might say, "but I have no icon to pray to". Why need of an icon to pray to God? If one is lost in the wilderness, where there are no icons, What will the one do? Will despair because God does not listen because there are no icons around that person? Were the power of the prophets and fathers of Israel in icons? Wasn't by the power of God and His will that all the wonders of the testaments were made? Want to venerate? Venerate, worship God with the words of the mouth, and the deeds of the hand, with the mind and spirit and life, which He gave. What I'm trying to say is, isn't the icons just images that represents biblical people and events? More than that is idolatry. So did the pagans. By having the image of their god, they value it, because it represents that god, saying, "this is my god", bowing to and bringing sacrifices and honor. Lament not for the loss of icons, for God is forever present and cannot be caught by any icon. But keep watch for the abomination that causes desolation. "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God." Christ is the light of the world, that laminates the mind of man, lifts up the man, calls the sinner. Faith comes by hearing. Ah, but this is already too long. “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”

[@joelandrew9688]

Man you the man, man this man right here boy i tell you what

[@JB-qo8sn]

What a revelation 😲

[@cosmicchange660]

god bless amen

[@dimitriofthedon3917]

Hope I meet you one day at my church in the Wirral, you’re such a great teacher

[@elainakosmidis8657]

Hello from Montreal.

[@Otogakurethehiddensound]

how is the veneration of icons different from the veneration of ancestors in other spiritual traditions?

[@richardmcmichael9329]

All who follow Jesus … are saints ..filled with the Holy Spirit…. The elect is often a bum or a tramp …the church leader is Lazarus the rich man ….and Jesus goes to the sick …and they then ‘ join the feast’ …the leaders …they go to the Eternal torment…. With their icons and idols and carved images … The. New covenant… does not ask us to carry a Tabernacle…..we are the Tabernacle…..go out ….get on …light yoke

[@chillingcat5033]

The only thing I don't understand is how the same level of veneration goes to the icon of Jesus Christ, as to the saints. I see the same bow and kiss to Christ icons as to icons of saints. Anyone want to enlighten me?

[@joelandrew9688]

I saw something in the beginning comments... all icons are venerated but not all but not all icons are worshiped...?

[@juancerve2028]

Hi father, im introducting into the orhodox faith, i want to study about the Councils of the Church, what book or scripture is recomended? Anyone who knows please answer me, not only father Spyridon. Thanks

[@Jamie_sdg]

Necessary for salvation and worship? Ok, I’m trying to be open minded on this as I do this topic for my dissertation from a Protestant perspective. May I ask how this affects the following: So what about the blind Christians who cannot see these images? What does it mean for them and their worship? What about the persecuted Church? If all these images are meant to be in the Churches, homes and vestments etc, what does that mean for them?

[@michaelvatson7056]

Yeah, what about those who are blind? Demonizing icons doesn't sound right, but the ideas that people have about icons is wrong. The icons should not be treated more than an object with representation and artistic value. I would trade any icon for a bible book any day. That has more value than an icon. "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God." This is how God spoke to the people, first, verbally then with works.

[@Jamie_sdg]

@@michaelvatson7056 you’d trade an icon for God-breathed Scripture, did I just read that correctly?

[@michaelvatson7056]

@@Jamie_sdg I would. Why would I not trade such? Did I not trade money for the icons and the bibles that I have? Did I not consider them more valuable than the money I trade? If a brother comes to me saying "Exchange your icon with my bible" should I not trade it with him? I can go and buy another icon afterwords. If one is interested in reading the bible and is willing to trade own icon for a bible, will I not trade? I would give the book for free. An icon is mute, it cannot speak and someone must explain it if it cannot be understood. (some random old people drawn flat wearing weird long robes, each having a sun behind their heads?). Just like letters, someone who cannot read, cannot understands letters and their meanings. A letter is also an icon. The bible book contains many icons, that forms the word of God, which a single icon (as in christian icon) cannot contain them all (not even the bible has everything, as it is written, there are not enough books to contain the work of God)

[@Jamie_sdg]

@@michaelvatson7056 You would trade God’s Word for images made created and authored by men. By your tradition you invalidate and undermine that which is God-breathed. Jesus didn’t hold anyone to account with pictures or oral traditions, but only to that which is breathed out by God, His Word. Repent.

[@blade7506]

@@Jamie_sdg i think you’ve got it confused

[@k98killer]

My understanding is that St. John of Damascus was not in attendance but rather sent letters that were quoted by those present but not preserved in their entirety. Correct me if I am mistaken.

[@danielswatske5780]

You are very correct, father. Also in the tabernacles where icons

[@Klotrik]

Dear Father Spyridon, please help me with a question. I often get an intense feeling of headace in the front of my head when I pray, especially when praying the jesus prayer with my rope. Sometimes it travels down behind my eyes. I have been christian most of my life and have prevously taken this sensation as a sign of the prescense of the holy spirit, but I have deepened in my spiritual life recently, learned and experienced more of prayer and the Lord and am not so sure anymore. I do not find this sensation particulary enjoyable, rather I feel I should pray through it. When I do, this often gets worse. What is the matter? Demonic attacks? Or can the prescens of God feel this way? Is it possible to give me an answer?

[@henryp9046]

Research about Padre Pio

[@joelandrew9688]

(Not fr. Spyridon) it could mean many things, it could be this or could be that, could be the evil one trying to discourage you, from the way.

[@nikopaschali]

Sweet words with a poisoned tongue

[@charlesstrauss1713]

I still Don't understand the point of "visual gospels" when we have the whole Gospel before us in the bible. I still don't understand why I should View paintings of saints when i can respect their work and contributions in my heart, just like how my cross necklace isn't necessary for my relationship with God but I simply choose to think it does because i personally like to take "take up their cross and follow me" literally. (thats just me though) Despite having watched this video, what I got from it was that men said icons are necessary. As for the exodus part, though angels are fellow servants like us (Revelation 19:10, 22:8-9) we as humans born of the dust of the earth are lower than the angels (Hebrews 2:9) and those veils were to symbolize the cherubim guarding paradise (holy grounds) from unrighteousness right? not exactly icons? not using images of humans. I still don't agree with the use of icons. can someone here explain more clearly to me?

[@BIGGOODBOY]

Although I can’t fully explain it the way I interpret it is that SOME of the church fathers in the Orthodox Church not all view icons as necessary to bring you closer to salvation. So if you don’t need it then you don’t need to partake. As to whether it’s right or wrong I honestly have no clue it’s been argued for a thousand plus years lol. But imo if you see it as wrong based on your understanding then don’t partake it won’t hurt you as it’s a church tradition not a biblical one

[@An_American_Man]

"You shall not bow down to them" I don't think you can honestly say icons are not likenesses or graven images. I don't think you can honestly say that the church doesn't traditionally expect its body to bow its heads to and pray (worship) to them. So how can you argue that it's not idolatry?

[@alexandermagnus82]

I love orthodoxy, but yes. Even if it's not idolatry, creating man-made images to venerate is a very pagan thing to do...early Christians thought as much when the pagan masses began co-opting the religion and worshiping Christ in pagan ways. I still believe the orthodox brothers will be saved, but reducing the Lord to an image is more likely to serve as an obstacle to worship rather than a true aid. It's forcing yourself to worship the earthly and limited understanding of the divine. Don't get me started on the "kissing" of saints though...that is idolatry in everything but name.

[@An_American_Man]

@@alexandermagnus82 I'm the same. I REALLY want to submit myself to orthodoxy, but I can't in good conscience, knowing I'll be expected to practice what has been called idolatry throughout biblical history. There's a reason we don't see any Hebrew icons of Moses and Abraham lying around.

[@BIGGOODBOY]

@@An_American_Manit’s just church tradition my friend you can still become an orthodox and not partake in kissing of pictures. The church is filled with images and art as a reminder of the biblical stories. Kidding if images and icon veneration doesn’t lead to salvation

[@philadelphiyahhsmyrna0]

Let HIS word be true and every man a liar. Did YAHWEH command your icons?

[@radicalgreek99]

The history is Rich

[@harryroseman818]

@sandysalads 03 biased?

[@harryroseman818]

@sandysalads 03 thank you.

[@mikeupshaw2759]

Watching, listening, and learning from Stillwater, OK. Thank you, Father!

[@dustindustindontworry-jz8dh]

Perhaps Eusebius' letter to Constantia (the sister of Constantine the Great) may be helpful. Constantia requested that Eusebius (the church historian who authored The Church History) send her an image of Christ, and Eusebius wrote her the following response. I quote a translation of it here, at least the full of what survives to this day: Translation by Cyril Mango, from The Art of the Byzantine Empire 312-1453 (1972, rep. 1986), p. 16-18. Letter from Eusebius of Caesaria (circa 260-399 AD) to Constantia. [I marked notable portions in bold.] "To depict purely the human form of Christ before its transformation is to break the commandment of God and to fall into pagan error." You also wrote me concerning some supposed image of Christ, which image you wished me to send you. Now what kind of thing is this that you call the image of Christ? I do not know what impelled you to request that an image of Our Saviour should be delineated. What sort of image of Christ are you seeking? Is it the true and unalterable one which bears His essential characteristics, or the one which He took up for our sake when He assumed the form of a servant? … Granted, He has two forms, even I do not think that your request has to do with His divine form. … Surely then, you are seeking His image as a servant, that of the flesh which He put on for our sake. But that, too, we have been taught, was mingled with the glory of His divinity so that the mortal part was swallowed up by Life. Indeed, it is not surprising that after His ascent to heaven He should have appeared as such, when, while He-the God, Logos-was yet living among men, He changed the form of the servant, and indicating in advance to a chosen band of His disciples the aspect of His Kingdom, He showed on the mount that nature which surpasses the human one-when His face shone like the sun and His garments like light. Who, then, would be able to represent by means of dead colors and inanimate delineations (skiagraphiai) the glistening, flashing radiance of such dignity and glory, when even His superhuman disciples could not bear to behold Him in this guise and fell on their faces, thus admitting that they could not withstand the sight? If, therefore, His incarnate form possessed such power at the time, altered as it was by the divinity dwelling within Him, what need I say of the time when He put off mortality and washed off corruption, when He changed the form of the servant into the glory of the Lord God… ? … How can one paint an image of so wondrous and unattainable a form-if the term ‘form’ is at all applicable to the divine and spiritual essence-unless, like the unbelieving pagans, one is to represent things that bear no possible resemblance to anything… ? For they, too, make such idols when they wish to mould the likeness of what they consider to be a god or, as they might say, one of the heroes or anything else of the kind, yet are unable even to approach a resemblance, and so delineate and represent some strange human shapes. Surely, even you will agree that such practices are not lawful for us. But if you mean to ask of me the image, not of His form transformed into that of God, but that of the mortal flesh before its transformation, can it be that you have forgotten that passage in which God lays down the law that no likeness should be made either of what is in heaven or what is in the earth beneath? Have you ever heard anything of the kind either yourself in church or from another person? Are not such things banished and excluded from churches all over the world, and is it not common knowledge that such practices are not permitted to us alone? Once- I do not know how-a woman brought me in her hands a picture of two men in the guise of philosophers and let fall the statement that they were Paul and the Saviour-I have no means of saying where she had had this from or learned such a thing. With the view that neither she nor others might be given offence, I took it away from her and kept it in my house, as I thought it improper that such things ever be exhibited to others, lest we appear, like idol worshippers, to carry our God around in an image. I note that Paul instructs all of us not to cling any more to things of the flesh; for, he says, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we Him no more. It is said that Simon the sorcerer is worshipped by godless heretics painted in lifeless material. I have also seen myself the man who bears the name of madness57 [painted] on an image and escorted by Manichees. To us, however, such things are forbidden. For in confessing the Lord God, Our Saviour, we make ready to see Him as God, and we ourselves cleanse our hearts that we may see Him after we have been cleansed… [Footnote] 57 “the man who bears the name of madness” is Mani the founder of Manichaeism. [Mani is the heretic after whom Manichaeism, a form of gnosticism, is named. Eusebius talks about and condemns his heresy in "The Church History", book 7, chapter 31.] It is very notable to me that this was written in the fourth century, where it was observed by Eusebius that the use of images was "banished and excluded from churches all over the world, and is it not common knowledge that such practices are not permitted to us alone?" I bring this up because it seems to me that Christians who are lured to the Orthodox or Catholic church have this notion that they are somehow getting in touch with the ancient and original Christianity, but from the looks of this letter from Eusebius, it looks like the original Christianity actually took the Bible's commandments about not making images and not venerating them very seriously. It looks like what is being passed off as a historic Christianity is actually Christianity that has strayed from its roots. Consider this passage from History of Eastern Christianity about the Church of the East: Then suddenly came the age of re-discovery1 of their little community as a revelation to a bewildered world. The story started with a certain Claude James Rich, then Resident of the British East lndia Company in Baghdad, who was not a man of religion but happened to he highly cultured and possessed of a very keen interest in archaeology. He visited the ancient site of the Biblical city of Nineveh in 1820, and his report2 on the area excited all manner of circles, both scholarly and missionary, in England and America. At long last he revealed to the English-speaking races the astounding facts about the Assyrians, who still conversed in a language similar to that spoken by Jesus and the Apostles and whose peculiar form of Christianity called for study and sympathy. A systematic archaeological exploration was commenced by A. H. Layard.3 On the religious side, however, the Nestorians were evidently and traditionally anti-popish and had neither icons nor crucifixes in their churches, only a simple and symbolic Cross. Their attitude towards the Virgin Mary was much akin to Protestant conceptions. Could they be the ancient ‘Protestants of the East’? Hence ensued a deluge of missions and Protestant missionaries to those forlorn sons of a historic church in their Godforsaken abodes. The Church of the East split from the Great Church (a.k.a. the "one holy catholic and apostolic church" prior to any major schism) at the council of Ephesus in 431 AD, over Nestorius (patriarch of Constantinople) being falsely condemned and excommunicated for a heresy he didn't teach, with Cyril of Alexandria (patriarch of Alexandria) prosecuting him with a misrepresentation of his teaching, accusing him of teaching that there were two Christs, one human and one divine, because Nestorius taught that Mary ought to be called the Christotokos (the "mother of Christ") rather than Theotokos ("mother of God"). (See Know the Creeds and Councils, Chapter 3, Council of Ephesus.) From that time on, Nestorius was known as a heretic in the west, but as a saint in the east: Mar Nestor. My point in quoting Eusebius and this portion about the Church of the East is that it shows that the image venerating sects of Christianity are not representing some sort of continuity with early historic Christianity, the very thing that Protestant converts to Eastern Orthodoxy find appealing. Rather, image veneration appear to represent a deviation from what the church originally practiced for at least its first four centuries, as confirmed by these two witnesses-Eusebius, and the Church of the East-I can't say it better than Eusebius said it, so I'll quote him again: can it be that you have forgotten that passage in which God lays down the law that no likeness should be made either of what is in heaven or what is in the earth beneath? Have you ever heard anything of the kind either yourself in church or from another person? Are not such things banished and excluded from churches all over the world, and is it not common knowledge that such practices are not permitted to us alone?

[@davidpo5517]

This video makes me extremely sad; it's difficult to put into words. I was almost there! I've been inquiring into Eastern Orthodoxy, to the point where I got the concept of icons, and actually saw the value in their usage in the church. I even loved the idea of the holy icons!! But then I find out they are mandatory for salvation. I'm sorry, but that's too much. How can you not feel this? The image of God is seen in ppl's lives and the lives of the saints, through what we do, because the image of a living God is itself alive. But that image, like our faith, is only alive insofar as it occurs in our lives, just like our faith only exists as far as it's found in our works. Your veneration for the holy image in the life of a Saint is only as real as it is found in your life. Transferring that living image in the Saint onto wood and paint is a lesser form of icon than a living being who is an image bearer. If as you say, you don't venerate wood and paint, but rather the image of the one portrayed there, then you don't need physical icons to exist. Anywhere. Ever. And you'd still be able to venerate them. Never mind telling me they're necessary for our salvation. If the wood and paint is just a physical focal point, then they could all burn tomorrow, and you'd still be able to venerate them, simply by following the ppl depicted in them with your own lives, with your own works venerating the Image of God in them! It's such a beautiful picture, an image if you will of Christ and following Christ. And you've ruined it! I cannot take it that far to the point where you treat that icon the same as you would in person. Do you kiss the photo of your deceased relative? Sure. But do you condemn a person and claim they hate their relative if they won't kiss that photo? No! The only one who can transfer His true presence through physical matter that is not alive is Jesus in the Eucharist. We are to be the icons made by Christ, the images we make with our hands are not stand-ins. They can be focal points, they can be edifying, they can be so much! But you've taken a good idea too far. It actually causes me pain thinking of this, because I was so close.

[@LOCKEYJ]

Have you got citations for the people you quoted. I’d like to check these out

[@Ilemkd]

We shall not worship, nor serve the creature (Mary, Saints, icons, images...)! But we should worship God only! 𝗥𝗼𝗺𝗮𝗻𝘀 𝟭:𝟮𝟱 ²⁵ Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

[@dimitriofthedon3917]

We don’t worship saints or icons, have you not just listened to the video

[@moiseybeliy5458]

St. Basil spoke absolutely nothing about icons (much less bowing down to and kissing them as a spiritual transaction) in the quotation you mentioned. He is speaking regarding the Trinity, and how it does not therefore result in multiple gods. He states that the Son is the image of the Father (that the Father is in the Son, and the Son in the Father), and therefore the honor paid to Jesus Christ is necessarily paid to the Father-- as they are one. It is staggeringly disingenuous to pretend that this has anything to do with apologetics for bowing down to graven images. Lord have mercy. (Source: Basil, _On the Holy Spirit,_ Chapter 18, Section 45)

[@dustindustindontworry-jz8dh]

exactly. Pray he comes out of idolotry.

[@nen3819]

How do they lead us closer to God?

[@rms-vp6hf]

We don’t worship the icon, we worship what it represents and for our salvation 😮

[@cheddarfish225]

Thank you dear Batushka. Every video I watch of you enlightens me. Can you please tell me where you give liturgy? I travel the UK often (not at the moment though for obvious reasons) and would like to attend your church. Thank you again.

[@giannihatzianmevris1861]

But why do we need them? Since the scriptures and the Apostolic Fathers never needed a use for them?

[@alexandermagnus82]

You only need Christ for salvation

[@petros-petra]

​@@alexandermagnus82 And what did Christ command us? To listen to the Church.

[@Kim-eh2ov]

So instead of striving to be like Christ, we are to strive to be like a man or woman that was striving to be Christ like??

[@cornbreadfedkirkpatrick9647]

I don't think were graven images just someones' vile thoughts I listened to someone's explanation on the icon's a true picturebook of the bible until the printing-press was invented in everyone's languages

[@gloriakattouah8153]

Are you answering the title of this video by saying icons are necessary for salvation? This seems a convoluted version of the gospel. By faith we are saved through grace, not through venerating icons.

[@Cyrus_II]

Can you worship an icon of christ or must you only venerate it? What precisely is the difference between worship and veneration anyway?

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

@@TheMunchBowl wrong you are at first isn't the gospel text actually an iconography .icon Εικών in the original language text is Jesus Christ col1:15 2 cor 4:4 γραφή is scripture together iconography. See no problem the problem is in your head not scripture

[@blade7506]

@@ΓραικοςΕλληνας ?

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

@@blade7506 the gospel is actually an icongraphy ! What don't you understand?

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

@@TheMunchBowl in hebrews 13:10 who are the one that are λατρεύοντας the tabernacle

[@banditnip0345]

I was listening to a protestant speaker the other day who stated that the catholic church worships (graven) images & should never confess their sins to anyone but God himself. I needed to hear a different slant on that. That's why this video has helped me to understand more clearly why we catholics practice the way we do. Thank you Father for all of your explanatory videos.

[@collectiveconsciousness5314]

For 1000 years both were the one true church.

[@Orthodoge]

Well sadly the Latin West left the One Catholic Orthodox Church, this is a major reason why they strayed away from icons and starting making frescos of naked saints in churches

[@collectiveconsciousness5314]

@@Orthodoge Renaissance evils.

[@michaelvatson7056]

Why would you confess your sins? Is it not for forgiveness? If so, who did you transgress? God or man? If God, ask God for forgiveness and repent, if man, ask man and God for forgiveness and repent. Why you go before an object and confess the sins to it? Is it sentient and alive to be offended? Did not the Jews did the same, condensing their sins, and offering animal sacrifice to God, casting their sins to the animal, yet we find out in Hebrews' book that it was not enough.

[@joelandrew9688]

​@@michaelvatson7056 have you not seen a movie in the past 20yrs (not a catholic) but pretty sure they confess to God with the preist as a type of witness and to administer their absolution

[@AnCapChase]

I think the title has a typo. "Or" should be "Are". Bless you Father

[@moiseybeliy5458]

The pagans did/do not worship/honor the physical material that their carved idols were made from, but rather the "entity" they represent. To claim that Eastern Orthodox do not worship the physical material is nothing more than the pagan idolaters can equally claim. Listen to God, and do not bow down to graven images, nor pay them the honor due only to God.

[@eileensheean9505]

Does the Orthodox Church venerate the shroud of Turin?

[@emyblack3540]

I was just thinking about something...if an object can carry demonic powers, does that mean some objects can have holy powers..wouldnt that make sense logically..yet Jesus said not to consider objects holy. When we die, we will not go to heaven with relics, will we...

[@michaelvatson7056]

How can an object have holy power? Is it, somehow, energized with spiritual energy, as magnets have their own force? The world has some occult ideas. There is no "energy" that is outside of God, or that God does not know of, as in, gaia, the energy of the earth, the "Forge" (like in StarWars). All the blessings and miracles from the bible made by the holy people and prophets, are, by the will of God and his power. "Demonic powers", more likely, demonic entities, that are, in the spiritual world, and are at war with God. It is written, that such items have no power. But people without God consider such items empowered (lucky charms, fortune items), inviting demonic entities in their life because they do not trust God.

[@partlysimpson5154]

Do you guys also read bible? We protections also read bible and prayer and guidance of Holy Spirit we are guided.

[@endlessnameless7004]

Icons have nothing to do with sanctification. This is harlotry, and seeking justification from a physical object.

[@petros-petra]

Isn't the Bible a physical object?

[@endlessnameless7004]

@@petros-petra I study it. I don't venerate it.

[@petros-petra]

@@endlessnameless7004 You don't venerate the word of God? Just a regular text book for you?

[@endlessnameless7004]

@@petros-petra I don't kiss my Bible. I study it and meditate upon it to build my faith. It's faith that pleases God, not the veneration of physical objects. And Bibles are not the word of God. They are fallible translations of the word of God. We don't have the original scriptures.

[@petros-petra]

@@endlessnameless7004 Would you never kiss a picture of your Mother, Wife or Kids either? Would you never put flowers at the tombstone of a deceased loved one?

[@jonathanfischer5292]

The Hebrews never bowed down before any of the images in the tabernacle. The earliest Christian images on cave walls were simply art, not icons. It's bad enough to follow such a questionable practice, but to make it "essential" is out of bounds. The church needs to revisity this.

[@YoshiKitty-mi8ch]

So was it the mode of these councils to only hear the opinions of high ranking church members? In what way is the entire body of Christ represented? I’m just curious because, from what I understand this is the orthodox view, unanimity is highly valued in determining the will of God and hierarchies are given less authority.

[@merelloeve123]

thank u

[@gezalesko3813]

No authentic image of Jesus, Moses, Apostles remained. Whatever we venerate it is a false image, not even the real one, an imagination of our hearts. It is not of God...

[@americannationalunionparty2523]

What do they look like actual biblical figures actually doesn't affect us

[@youareon2something]

🌸

[@innovati]

You seem like a nice guy, I hope you can compare your practice to God's instruction to us given through the prophets in scripture to see where they may differ

[@Reaper4367]

But doesnt this go against what is written in Exodus 20.4 ?

[@Kauahdhdhd]

Read exodus 25

[@pre-tribrapturetrueorfalse4124]

How can icons draw us closer to God? There is nothing in scripture where the apostles did this and are they not our foundation of faith? People are acting like there is power in icons. You are quoting church fathers a lot after the first three centuries. I would probably be eastern orthodox if it were not for things like this. Is the Bible. Not enough? I guess if no one is putting their faith in these things, maybe it is okay. I rather stay on the side of caution and just talk to God throughout the day as if He is there all the time.

[@michaelvatson7056]

It is strange how people atribute to icons some sort of magical, mystical power, as if, these are sentient, with spiritual power, almost, like a charm. Yet, they speak lightly of them, "these are just images, to impress and lift up man", they misuse them, bow down to them make a cross and kiss them. I know it, I live in an orthodox country. One thing they say, another thing they do.

[@pre-tribrapturetrueorfalse4124]

@@michaelvatson7056 Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to us. We don’t need icons. What is the purpose of that? We can read the writings of the early church fathers and glean from them but some of them even had error. Origen was a good example of that. I love these teachers in a way as they teach things the Protestants are afraid to talk about like suffering and giving our all to God but they hold onto some of this OTHER stuff. We are to not bow to any graven image. I deal with Roman Catholics with their demonic Mary Apparitions that they think are from God. How easily people are deceived just because something that happened was supernatural. Would the humble virgin Mary tell Jesus’s true followers to go build shrines unto herself? No. That is total idolatry. They will say it is veneration which is an excuse to not repent of one of the worst sins. If you bow to it, it is idolatry. And Mary would never say to go build shrines unto herself. That is narcissism above and beyond Adolph Hitler. Nobody stops to think about what they are putting faith in.

[@lawrencerose256]

Father Spyridon is plying violent video games a sin.

[@FatherSpyridonROCOR]

Anything that desensitises us to violence is harmful to us. Violent films, or lyrics in music, debasing literature - anything that exposes our soul to ungodly images or feelings is harmful. I have seen young people get addicted to video games, they deliberately are designed to do this to us. If we knowingly give ourselves to anything that we know is harmful to the soul, then it is a sin.

[@lawrencerose256]

Father Spyridon thank you Father Spyridon. May God Bless you. I don’t wish to take much of your time but. Is it true that at one time the bishop of Rome was just as powerful not more or less, Than the other churches of Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria and Nyssea. I learned this from a catholic and I thought does this not prove that the orthodox have the correct way?

[@michaelvatson7056]

@@lawrencerose256 In what sense powerful? As in, politics, influence?