If Good and Evil Exist, Then God Must Exist - Hamza Tzortzis

www.iera.org/general/if-good-a... - In this short presentation, Hamza Tzortzis explores the idea that 'If Good and Evil Exist, Then God Must Exist'. He starts this lecture by establishing key principles in order for everyone - atheist, sceptic and theist - to connect with one another. He asserts that to truly engage with each other we must all suspend or discard our emotional and intellectual baggage formed as a result of our limited perspectives and experiences.
During the main part of the lecture Hamza Tzortzis argues that if we believe that some good and evil are objective (meaning, that they are true regardless of personal opinion and consensus) then it necessitates God's existence. This is because, as he argues, God is the only ontological foundation for objective good and evil.
Hamza Tzortzis addresses other potential alternatives such as biology, natural selection, social pressure and moral realism, and argues why the fail to provide an objective grounding for good and evil. Hamza responds to Euthyphro's dilemma and other contentions. He also provides Islamic source text references to justify his points.
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[@SA-jb3uv]

I was in this lecture :) Amazing speaker

[@user-xb2ns3pi2l]

MashaAllah you’re lucky to meet Ustadh Hamza 💚

[@adamgrimsley2900]

Who?

[@longjunior7638]

@@adamgrimsley2900 Hamza tzortis. A greek revert muslim philosopher and speaker

[@adamgrimsley2900]

@@longjunior7638 revert??? Revert to what?

[@longjunior7638]

@@adamgrimsley2900 he reverted from atheism to being a Muslim.

[@razeenrajaful]

May Allah bless this brother and give him success in Daarain

[@markhackett2302]

And dasunshine.

[@ysiman10]

Well said brotha Hamza. One of your most clear and well formulated speeches on a very crucial talking point. I would like to request for a possible future talk to be on cultures vs Islam and or perception of women's role in society Islamic vs liberal progressive. Peace be upon you Hamza

[@sho1oo]

Incredible. The command of God is good because God himself is perfect and perfection is good thus God and his command are good.

[@markhackett2302]

Yeah, but if I were a liar, I'd claim I am perfect too.

[@bstlybengali]

@@markhackett2302 too bad you are a fool lol

[@markhackett2302]

@@bstlybengali Too bad you're a moron making claims 100% opposite to reality!

[@sxxxvvvvgggg730]

@@markhackett2302 too bad you cant understand logic

[@markhackett2302]

@@sxxxvvvvgggg730 Too bad you don't show that is the case.

[@monotheism6616]

He is the one I most of the time listening to.

[@Patient4Ever]

Subhan;Allah ! this video is soo good it deserves billions of views idk why its not that known this guy is so logical ! may Allah swt reward him . he is a reason why i started understanding my religion more logically and have less doubts Alhamdulilah !

[@polishboot]

Allahumdulliah, a great lecture

[@SuhailAnwar]

What a speech what a man - amazing

[@PercentPulse]

Mashallah may allah reward my dear brother hamza for his hard work

[@sjlarcadia2]

A very well-spent 40 minutes! His arguments are clear and thoughtful because he points out both the argued positions and fallacies of opposing viewpoints. I really appreciated the clarification of the difference between epistemology and foundational/objective basis arguments. The notion of God that goes along with this talk is also independent of any faith tradition- even Buddhism is covered because the Creator cannot be comprehended, but we can logically determine His existence without comprehending His reality (like a painting cannot know the painter). My background (Baha'i) admits also that the alternatives Hamza discusses - so dependent on human subjectivity are also pitfalls. On the other hand, if we, individually in our own mind and limite experience and susceptible to "reframing"- are not able to know the Will of the Creator (whether that Unknowable Essence is one, three or no "personal" God), we can also allow for the existence of a specific part of creation (e.g., people like Abraham, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Krishna, jessu Muhammad and perhaps many others) whose reality and purpose is to communicate those"commands and insights", which are - in the context of this talk - the portal through which we can see the objectivity of good and evil, and hence a Creator.

[@zainulabideen5760]

Hamza brother I'm from Pakistan and I prayed for you much more

[@user-lv4dh1pt6m]

Very beneficial! Jazak Allah khairan.

[@lilafit8643]

My brother Hamza!!!

[@khalidhabib1552]

Great lecture.

[@mel3assi]

please provide q&a. much to learn. Jazakum allah khair

[@jonathanayman6399]

Im so much inspired by Hamza Tzortzis.

[@riyadhasan5348]

Mashallah , May Allah bless you, brother.

[@bilalanwarb3]

JazakAllah for a beautiful lecture...May Allah bless and reward brother Hamza and everybody for their efforts...:)

[@_f_]

Ma Shah Allah!

[@OmarAhmed-od9rf]

Really love this guy

[@monakhalil8106]

plz if there is a video for Q&A of this lecture upload it or give me the link of it

[@silentrepenter7481]

This guy is awesome

[@Bigly]

q&a please!

[@fahdreza3026]

Sir,what the procedure to ask you qustions in online?

[@T0Pge]

احبك في الله اخ حمزة 🌺

[@kausamsalam8543]

Alhumdullilah 🍀🌻

[@mohmoe1]

is it just me or is hamza looking kind of thin

[@sal4490]

I thought that too.

[@Sasori.OfTheRedSand]

me too i dont know why !!

[@AC-mp7cx]

@@Sasori.OfTheRedSand hes in great shape

[@atiq.r]

Where is the Q/A?

[@afzalsiraj826]

if you read his book, you would know what he would be explaining in this video… very nice book…

[@Dallasgeri1]

I have an answer to the Euthyphro Dilemma but it is paradoxical: - Piety and God are one and eternal, none came before the other they both co-exist with one another because God is Good, therefore the answer is they both exist eternally. It seems as though this answer is illogical at first but once you see how Humans are incapable of understanding eternity then you'll see how the answer can make sense from an eternal perspective. Credit for this answer goes to my Philosophy teacher who mentioned it in class.

[@markhackett2302]

Ah, no, YOU don't understand eternity. And you don't define things into existence. Otherwise I can claim that by definition god doesn't exist, since god is a mythical being who does magic and, since the definition of myth is a fictional story set in the distant past, this proves god doesn't exist.

[@keem005]

Salams, I have a few questions on this lecture, Firstly, I didn't understand Hamza's point when he was talking about social biological conditioning.. that if we were reared like certain bees or sharks we would be killing and raping and not considering it immoral. I don't get the point he's trying to make? We aren't bees, and we aren't sharks.. we are human beings and our "social biological conditioning" (if it exists) could be what tells us that it is morally wrong to kill and rape for example..just like social biological conditioning in bees and sharks tell them it's ok to kill and rape, because it's what is best for their species.. is he saying it is morally wrong for bees to kill, and for sharks to rape? What am I missing there? Secondly, his comment on natural selection, I didn't really understand the difference between capacity to form ethical rules, and foundation for objective moral values. Can someone explain that? Examples would help. Third, regarding moral realism, isn't their statement that moral truth are just moral truths because they are, an agreement with what Hamza said in the first place? That, it is a self evident truth, an axiom..To add to that question, who determines what is considered an axiom? Axiom's by definition can't be proven, because they are self proven, but, if one half rejects an axiom and another accepts an axiom, how does the accepting side convince the rejecting side, that the axiom is an axiom? Jazakum Allah khair.

[@naushaadshareef1833]

Salaam Br Hamza, can you tell from quantum physics how the jinn enters the human body. Allah SWT bless you with knowledge, keep up the good works

[@kingsentertainment786]

Wait! nooo Jinn and all unseen are metaphysical

[@shamsia_rahimi8717]

❤❤❤❤

[@2G84]

If warm and cold exist, then God must exist.

[@MrStyle-sr1yv]

I love my greek brother

[@wisepatrolpeace4656]

I lost it after the first 15 minutes

[@MrManny075]

Why he keeps quoting what people wrote, God created the light "Good" and the Shadows comes within it "bad" take one out the other goes too. Sure God created all humans Good as the light, but the desire "ego" comes with them as the shadows, the rest grows by the "desire ego wants" including morals and values of a person,

[@alinack69]

Everyone has a right to life without pain. Therefore, taking somebody's life or causing them pain is wrong. We know this because we empathise, as we don't want pain and suffering for ourselves. god didn't tell me that I don't like pain, experiencing pain told me that I don't like it.

[@alinack69]

***** lol, tuché random stranger.

[@mohamedsheerin123]

We can't experience everything in life and also, there are things that we experience that are subjective. However, with objective morality, we have set rules that enable us to act upon our moral values, regardless of the time or society that we live in.

[@alinack69]

FinalWord If there were a set of inbuilt rules for life, something within us to tell us not to do certain things, then why do people go against it? 

[@mohamedsheerin123]

Objective morality is not something within us but subjectivity is, which changes according to time or situation.

[@alinack69]

FinalWord what exactly is the point you are trying to make?

[@masrurahmedrosen1938]

He is Tony Stark! Who is Hamza? xD

[@rakindhali4840]

Bangla caption plzz plzz plzz plzz plzz ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

[@ozgun6611]

If good and evil exist, then humans must exist...

[@GemBangan]

good and evil exist because they are one of the creations, can't deny that the creator come first. if anyone doubts, lost.

[@AlAmin-ct6cn]

8:00 just to make it islamic 😂😂😂

[@NuzhatNigar]

I am watching this vedio just because to learn english 😅

[@diobrando5415]

Sorry to say this but your English still needs work

[@NuzhatNigar]

@@diobrando5415 I already said this sister 😊

[@Oo786oO]

@@NuzhatNigarWhat a good choice of video to develop your English - Bravo keep it up. If you keep doing this, your english will be much better than Fahd who had multiple mistakes in his own english, and his manners.

[@peteconrad2077]

Oo786oO as did you.

[@amrannahshal738]

for people who don't get it : he is arguing for the origin of reason, that deep thought in the human being, which different us from animals and gives value and purpose in life. if there is no existence for a god then that thought is worthless ( you can say also its just a chemical reaction) and everything becomes materialistic. atheists here can't explain that from their side of the coin, because we are all nothing more than dust and our value is 0 🤷🏻‍♂️ and if they wanna put a value there they have to believe of a god, because who will trust the mind of a being that came from monkeys 🤔

[@youngboss9060]

Amran Nahshal im muslim but i didn’t understand this argument well.i feel animals have objective morals as well for example when u kill a cow in front of the other cows they show signs of distress.and objective morals may have been instilled in our DNA to live a better life in society

[@roneddy]

@@youngboss9060 that's not what objective morals means. Objective means you have evidence of its proof of existing. You can't prove that morals exist, we might have a natural inclination for it but you can't use that as justification for objective morals. As a muslim, what Allah tells us is moral and we also have the fitrah so our morality IS objective due to Allah. Athiests can't justify their morality like this, that's why you won't find a single video showing objective morality from their POV.

[@markhackett2302]

Vampire bats have social obligations and reciprocate in aid. Your argument is invalid.

[@markhackett2302]

@@roneddy "have the fitrah so our morality IS objective" Nope, that would just make it written down, NOT objective.

[@roneddy]

@@markhackett2302 If god tells you what is moral or not, that is by definition objective morality.

[@accountgmail.]

Seems like brother Hamza has forgotten the concept of Al Wala Wal Bara. May Allah remind him of real knowledge. Ameen.

[@Tenzek]

I never really understood what this argument is supposed to accomplish. So good in evil and the sense religion describes doesn't exist. What's the problem? I don't see something inherently wrong with our concept of good and evil coming from what we believe helps us to survive best. If that's not a problem for someone, this argument is useless. Making up absurdities that have potential harm, and saying "but in a way that doesn't harm anyone" is cheating. It's pretending to have foreknowledge of the consequences, which we cannot have. Taking a risk on behalf of someone else that may harm them is still "wrong" by this consequentialist standard, and getting lucky to get away with it doesn't change that. It's just making a mockery of the idea and using that as an argument. Also, the explanation of why the Euthyphro dilemma is a false one seemed circular. It was essentially the first part of the dilemma restated - that good is what it is because god says so. The answer was that's it's OK to think that because god is a perfect moral being, but by what standard? His own from this description, to which you submit. That doesn't get away from the problem.

[@balladbay2037]

watch the video again and you will understand.

[@yellowmellow9265]

Lol, surviving is neccessary prove it. I already tell you how your argument may gonna be . You :Good and bad is derived from our survival . Me: Why should we survive/exist You : because it's good Lol

[@Tenzek]

@@yellowmellow9265 You've put words in my mouth and mocked me when I haven't spoken a word to you. I doubt your attempt at an honest conversation. What your argument does is attack the need for society, but that's not a response to what is being said to you. This isn't an argument about whether a society is worth having.

[@yellowmellow9265]

@@Tenzek first thing is morality is not a need of society if you are saying morality is responsible for all this fine working of society . all of the rules are not followed by morality but due to enforced law. Rape is not stopped by morality but law . And what my point is that its good that you follow your version of morality but the problem is when you enforced someone else to follow your version of morality . More ever survival is a social construct . We are atoms and we don't die but are relesed back to the universe

[@Tenzek]

@@yellowmellow9265 I didn't say your crazy rants that you continue to make up on the spot and try to attribute to me. I said that, given you've accepted that you live and cooperate with a society, the premise that you're trying to survive has already been accepted. If you want to argue the relevance of that premise, you're not arguing morality. You're hypocritically arguing against society while simultaneously taking part in it for its benefits. Can you spot the difference between that and your nonsensical rant?

[@ajyaluna]

when maki g claims about the quran verses should be provided.... arguments need to be supported by evidence.... where does it say gays need to be stonned... as a matter of fact where is stoning mentioned in thr quran ......

[@markhackett2302]

It has the same problem in the OT. It says that a man sleeping with another man "as with woman" is an abomination, but doesn't say to stone them. Worse, gay sex doesn't have either partner "sleeping with" the other as they would with a woman. Men don't have a hoo-ha, so any intercourse ("sleeping with") would be done entirely differently. And, since women don't have a dingaling, intercourse as with a man and woman cannot happen either.

[@dBolotok]

I am a Muslim and a somewhat fan of mr. Hamza Tzortzis. And I think this entire lecture concludes absolutely nothing other than proving that consequentialism is bollocks. There is no such thing as objectively right or wrong. People in the room would not like killing Zakaria because they were raised that way. A person may switch an individual or a set of morality any time with events in his/her life or a miraculous hidayah from Allah working as catalysts. The very people who believed it was perfectly okay to torture a slave to death abandoned that morality overnight when they embraced Islam.

[@yellowmellow9265]

What about jailing or killing someone

[@mostafaomar2366]

The Kalam Cosmological Argument An argument that Uses the most fundamental laws of contemporary physics and engineering. To prove. The presence. Of God. Allah. 1-Whatever begins to exist, has a cause of its existe. 2-The universe began to exist.( The Big Bang Theory of the Universe postulates a beginning.)+(the second law of thermodynamics (entropy). In a closed system the available energy will become less and less until until finally you have no available energy at all (you have reached a state of entropy).simply The universe is running out of energy.which also points us to a universe that has a definite beginning. 3-therefore, the universe has a cause. In Holy Quran the Word of God, THE ‘BIG BANG’ VERSE اَوَ لَمۡ یَرَ الَّذِیۡنَ کَفَرُوۡۤا اَنَّ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَ الۡاَرۡضَ کَانَتَا رَتۡقًا فَفَتَقۡنٰہُمَا ؕ وَ جَعَلۡنَا مِنَ الۡمَآءِ کُلَّ شَیۡءٍ حَیٍّ ؕ اَفَلَا یُؤۡمِنُوۡنَ Do not the disbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were a closed-up mass (ratqan), then We opened them out (fafataqnahuma)? And We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (21:31 Al-Anbiya) The universe is running out of energy VERSE ﴿٨﴾ أَوَلَمْ يَتَفَكَّرُوا فِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ ۗ مَا خَلَقَ اللَّهُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا إِلَّا بِالْحَقِّ وَأَجَلٍ مُسَمًّى ۗ وَإِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِنَ النَّاسِ بِلِقَاءِ رَبِّهِمْ لَكَافِرُونَ 8. Do they not reflect within themselves? Allah did not create the heavens and the earth, and what is between them, except in truth, and for a specific duration. But most people, regarding meeting their Lord, are in denial. ( The Romans

[@ykchen6461]

0. The point of refuting prior "baggage" and essentially keeping an open mind and treating everyone as they were different is a very good one. I do think though, that an educated and well-informed opposition could use said knowledge (not stereotypes, mind) to see where certain arguments and logic stem from. More often though, it does indeed do more harm than good. 1. The premise that "objective morality" exists is a debatable and unestablished one. 2. He just said that morality is influenced by upbringing. Maybe it's because the general consensus, after millenia of human socalization, have concluded that killing is immoral; I would not, however, say that to be absolute or objective. People would call me monster for saying it is not objective, but that's because I acknowledge that I'm influenced by modern society. 3. He says that "if we begin from this axiom, God must exist." (I might be paraphrasing that) Did I not just refute his entire basis with simple reasoning? Hamza is really quite dumb in all his claims of philosophy.

[@khairulikhwanbinkadir7052]

So,you mean,objective morality cannot exist???

[@HAltaf96]

It's easy to say things like "there's no objective morality" until something horrible happens to you and you deeply feel that you've been "wronged"

[@markhackett2302]

@@HAltaf96 Nope, it is just lazy to claim that objective morality MUST exist because YOU feel upset at what happened to you. All it means is you felt you were done hard by. That doesn't make it any less your subjective claim than before.

[@markhackett2302]

@@HAltaf96 Does a tapeworm feel wronged? If it doesn't, then there can be no objective morality. If it does, how do you know?

[@ShahzadAhmad-nb6si]

​@@markhackett2302Are you dead or alive

[@JoeMorreale1187]

But like I have told u many times u r consumed in your anger n jealousy of the truth that is Islam

[@magicpin]

Still doesnt have to be your God

[@unterbawr]

being good at public speaking and being charming isn't the same as being smart.

[@yaseen99]

Lol, and redundant comments are not considered constructive arguments against a case.

[@kingsentertainment786]

@@yaseen99 woah.

[@jayiman3611]

That makes no sense. I cant believe you just said that. What a complete logical failure.

[@theanachronist2465]

Jeffrey Detected Opinion Rejected

[@Golfislife420]

good and evil is relative and man made

[@JoeMorreale1187]

Jay u have been exposed and refuted silly so many times that have u not understood yet that your malice n jealousy will not get u anywhere so give it up son

[@Muslim604c]

JoeMorreale1187 We should make dua for Allah to guide him, In Sha Allah. Many of the worst enemies of Islam became the most pious Muslims - from the Sahabah to the Mongols!

[@markhackett2302]

@@Muslim604c Nah, I had a word with Allah and he gave up YEARS ago. Before mohammed died, even. Apparently it didn't take long before he wasn't listening to Allah any more and just making it up himself, so Allah gave up.

[@eillomanu]

Sadly good and evil don't exist :P

[@shafiullahnoory6761]

based on your logic so if you get raped is not bad\evil ? and so if you get raped, you wont go to police and file a complaint ? because you dont believe in evil\bad so rape is not bad\evil, so no reason to go to police .

[@eillomanu]

@@shafiullahnoory6761 Good and Evil is like Up and Down, it does not exist without a reference frame. As humans, we have agreed that making each other suffer was a bad thing. Human morality is entirely dependent on the human cultural frame and as the frame changes so does morality. Just think of all the different moralities around the earth or throughout History. Since 6 years ago my position on morality has evolved a little I do believe there is an absolute good and evil, but no mainstream religion has a good definition of that, specially the Abrahamic ones. This is why we must break free of archaic religious dogmas and strive for truth, and only truth, as there is no religion higher than truth.

[@halalGPT]

@@eillomanu You should read Quran. No one is forcing you to accept it. Just go through it once.

[@aishaarshadalam3412]

@@eillomanu Truth isn't a religion.

[@eillomanu]

@@aishaarshadalam3412 The point is to pursue truth, not religion. As religion interferes with truth.

[@ejcarter9]

Did good and evil exist before humanity existed? Does good and evil exist in the animal kingdom? No. Good and evil are man-made concepts. They're names we give to those actions and occurrences that make a person feel happy or sad/angry, and it's not objective because two different people will have two different interpretations or emotions of the same event.

[@noorhassan4361]

Eric Carter Where did morality come from ?

[@aslbpo9010]

Your refutation doesn't prove anything cause from the Islamic point of view the duty of morality and upholding good was only placed upon the humans on this earth because we were given the superior intellect to ponder and what is right and what is wrong and the free will to enact on it.

[@iamterryfc1]

Thirteen years have passed since a group of mostly educated and middle-class men decided to obliterate themselves, along with three thousand innocents, to gain entrance to an imaginary Paradise. We knew from that moment that things can go terribly wrong in our world-not because life is unfair, or moral progress impossible, but because we have failed, generation after generation, to abolish the delusions of our ignorant ancestors. The worst of these ideas continue to thrive( Islam )and are still imparted, in their purest form

[@savvykafir6153]

Agreed! Religious superstition (especially Islam) is the greatest engine for evil the world has ever known.

[@everyislamophobenightmare2079]

Bro i would love to die fighting to protect innoncent that ISIS kills. By Allah even if it was u. I want to die as a martyr. But to Kill some one for your own political Agenda is not from islam. Peace

[@peteconrad2077]

He confuses innate with objective.

[@peteconrad2077]

Your comment appears to be a non sequitur.

[@peteconrad2077]

@Prof K your comment wasn’t relevant to mine. Your talking gibberish.

[@peteconrad2077]

@Prof K so do you think morality is objective or innate.

[@peteconrad2077]

@Prof K but there isn’t an objective moral standard. That’s the point.

[@peteconrad2077]

@Prof K it is innately wrong. The objectivity or subjectivity is a non-question. It can’t be either since there is no objective standard for it to pass or fail.

[@ruralgameboy]

If Marvel exists, Thor exists

[@TheArtosan]

This is so biased.. Therefor, god exists

[@TheArtosan]

This gut can't argue good, his believes are so wrong..and yet he exists

[@Dunamiskingdom]

Jesus Christ died for your sin you must repent and believe in him to have eternal life

[@Fozykeno]

God became a baby to die for you. Makes sense.

[@theanachronist2465]

Least persuasive Christian

[@mohamedsheerin123]

Excellent lecture.