If Not This, Then What Should Israel Do?

[@kathydittmer9659]

You guys don’t get the whole picture at all. You cannot keep these people captive!!!

[@outcastp23]

If you want Palestinians become more moderate, start treating them with more humanity. For anyone who wants to understand this better I would urge to go and research about what has been happening in the West Bank for years now . Militant Settlers have been initmidating and threating Palestinian villages in the West Bank and in many cases forcing them to leave land that have been their homes for many generations. The settlers are backed by the IDF and Israeli state. Palestinians have no legal recourse. When reporting settler attacks, 99.7% of the cases are dismissed. This has been widlely reported by human rights group in Israel and Haaretz. When you initmidate someone on a daily basis, take their home, take their land, deprive them of their livelihood, the justice system turns a blind eye, if you try to fight back, there good chance you'll be killed, what other alternative does someone in this situation have than to fester resentment and in many cases turn to voilence?

[@GoDaveGo]

I oppose settlements in the West Bank. Full stop. I know the Palestinian people want empathy, financial aid, and ultimately want help forming their own state. I’ve been paying attention for the last 20 years, and recently I’ve been listening to many Palestinians and supporters doing interviews to explain the problem. It seems to me that there is always an excuse why they won’t turn the land they have into a functional country, they won’t use the money they get to build an economy, and they won’t stop spending money on weapons from Iran. If I imagined a group in the Palestinians’ position who only want a one state solution that they control exclusively and to kill or expel the majority of Jews simply for being Jewish, they would behave with the spectrum of behaviors the Palestinian Authority (or whatever this iteration is called), and Hamas, and Islamic Jihad, and the average people themselves are. It seems that the Palestinians’ real problem is their own racism. Look at the French and the Germans-they’ve hated each other and raped and killed and stolen from each other for thousands of years, most recently with millions dead in the World Wars. They just decided to get over it. So Im not sure there is anyone who can help the Palestinians but the Palestinians

[@mamahiyojiespizzeria3093]

@@GoDaveGoYour analogy falls flat when you realize that France has France and Germany has Germany. The Palestinians don’t have a Palestinian State. They have a land that is subject to be chipped away at slowly. How are they supposed to get over their “racism” when their homes keep getting stolen and their brothers and sisters killed. Ultimately, you want this to end like the American Indians. A people who’s population is dwindling with barley any land basically granted by the people who murdered them, having to rely on them to get by. You are basically telling them to simply suck it up and take it. To slowly die.

[@punche5250]

Yet this is in Gaza, which Israel has no settlements in. They used to, but in an historic peace deal in 2005, pulled all of their settlements out, and gave the Gazan free elections. The outcome: Hamas is elected. This is not going to just be solved with more empathy.

[@randomdude7384]

They must be treated proportinately to how they treated the Jews on October 7. "As thy sword has made women childless, so your mother shall be childless among women."

[@sonyjoseph5426]

@@punche5250you failed to mention the crushing blockade that Israel instituted after pulling out of Gaza .. pulling a knife slowly out only an inch from someone's back is not exactly progress

[@jon9625]

Save for going back in time, there is no palateable solution to having an existential determined threat on your door step

[@sonyjoseph5426]

in no part of this interview was anything thing slightly mentioned that ending the occupation of 2M gazan as an option to end this conflict

[@yanadalton5655]

There hasn’t been an ‘occupation’ for years.

[@worsethanjoerogan8061]

That wouldn't end the conflict. If they stopped all their economic restrictions on Gaza, Hamas would bring in more weapons, rockets. It would escalate the conflict

[@comets4sale]

How do you get rid of Netanyahu and Israel's right wing government presiding over failed Israeli policies, occupation, and atrocities against Palestinians?

[@Randomjackass135]

Military engagement

[@coreyshapiro2440]

@@Randomjackass135 Or we could just start with reducing U.S. aid money to Israel.

[@joshuafrank3803]

@@coreyshapiro2440 Can we stop paying Hamas too please. Giving money to a terrorist organization hasn't worked out too well.

[@coreyshapiro2440]

@@joshuafrank3803 Where did you hear that the U.S. government is giving money to Hamas?

[@amiramaz]

Polls right now give 65% to center left, and Likud primeries indicate Bibi will go after the war. We Israelis understand now better then ever how bad he's been in last 10 years

[@katherinebervera4790]

After listening to this I am even less sympathetic to the arguments of The Israeli government than I was before. I was hoping if I listened I might feel more understanding of the Israeli governments actions, but I did not. There is no excuse.

[@maximiliankullmann7802]

How did you get to this assumption when they basicly saying hamas forst israel in to doing unethical warfare

[@wendysinclair-smith984]

Stop all assaults. Apologize. Bring humanitarian supplies. Cry together. Help clean up. Help rebuild. Remove Israel settlements. Change attitude towards people of Palestine whose country, livelihoods, humanity, property, respect has been stolen. Share more. Love more.

[@jshays007]

100% on the nose my friend. ... Plus the Right of Return for those in exile since The Nakba.

[@dyking2105]

Amen!

[@Tespri]

remove arabic colonizers and world will be at peace

[@ghosthunter0950]

@@jshays007 Nope. not gonna happen. the majority of Palestinians hold the opinion that Israel should cease to exist based on twisted history.

[@oferwebman]

The problem of this conversation is that it looks on this from Western eyes. By these definitions everything should work if you just do the right thing. But in the Middle East, when Hamas and other Arab groups state clearly that their intent is the chaos, and not a solution for the two people, AND that Israel is surrounded by enemies that do understand and respond to force , Israel has no choice but to act in a way that may not look human to some western people, but maybe will save many more lives (Palestinian and Israeli) in the future

[@morty908]

No. It doesn't matter what Hamas says because what they say does not correlate to the facts on the ground. What they've said is the same thing they've always said in the past and is trivial to dismiss as their usual spiel. The fact that America backs Israel's right to exist unconditionally has not changed. That this automatically ensures that there is no existential threat to Israel is obviously true to all but the ignorant and folks arguing in bad faith. Hamas does not have the capability to dismantle the Israeli state. They can stage terrorist attacks on Israeli citizens but they've never had and never will have the power to actually threaten the Jewish people's right to exist in Israel. On the other hand, the literal overwhelming number of Palestinians in Gaza are at the complete and utter mercy of the Israeli state. When Israel paints all Palestinians as mere animals and imposes collective punishment upon them, this objectively suggests that there are elements in the Israeli state that would be fine with the mass murder of innocent Palestinians. This is not how a conversation looks from "Western" eyes. These are just the objective facts of reality. You're simply too blinded by rage, hatred, and perhaps grief to do a tempered assessment of the situation, not at all unlike Americans after 9/11.

[@Tespri]

@@morty908 well only animals celebrate dead children

[@ghosthunter0950]

@@morty908 What are you implying? Israel should be suffering the terrorist attacks in quiet? What do you think would happen 2 weeks later if they did? they have Hezbollah and the Islamic Jihad on their necks as well. why on earth would Israel baby them? Besides, Palestinians have agency on their own actions, don't patronize them. they could do their resistance a lot more morally. what an ass of a double standard you have.

[@glenrotchin5523]

I do not understand why analysts ignore the fact that this is an ongoing hostage situation. It’s not a siege of Gaza. It’s a hostage crisis. Hamas frees the hostages. Surrenders their arms. And Israel will leave. Easy. But there is no upside for Hamas to do either. In fact it’s in their interest to make the situation as miserable as possible for Gazans. So the world pressures Israel to back off.

[@TheFallinhalo]

i pity youre naiveity. you actually think israel will just leave the gaza people alone if hamas surrendered themselves over to israel? Dream on, Israel doesnt want the palestinians PERIOD. they dont care if Hamas is around or not. quit deluding yourself into think israel is this benevolent thing, their not their some of the most evil shits on this planet.

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

It's both. On October 6th, 2023 the Israelis would have done that for the release of 200 hostages. On October 8th, 2023 Israel sees the existence of Hamas as an immediate and credible existential threat to their race which must be removed. So yeah, I don't think the Israelis would do that anymore.

[@CorePathway]

@@twelvecatsinatrenchcoathow are several thousand poorly armed terrorists an existential threat to a country of 9 million with the most modern military on the planet. The do-nothing-but-read-the-Torah-have-babies-and-freeload-off-society group is more of an existential threat. Hamas is evil, to be sure. But hardly an existential threat.

[@hmmcinerney]

Israel never left Gaza, they occupy it daily and at will.

[@int0x2e]

​​@@hmmcinerneythis is entirely false. There were no Israeli troops anywhere in Gaza since 2006 aside than during the campaigns, which were all done in response to Hamas attacks! If Gaza embraces peace, there will be peace tomorrow!

[@markbantz9699]

Palestinians have had to live with this for decades!

[@danawynkoop9511]

Well, they could have agreed to two states, but they didn't want to do that.

[@karenkaren3189]

They have consistently turned down any iteration of a two state solution

[@DMU101]

​@@ruthhenry9577 Here's what I don't get. In 1967 Egypt (which ruled Gaza), Syria, and Jordan (which ruled the West Bank) along with Palestinian guerrillas initiated the 6-Day War with the intention of destroying Israel. They lost and Israel gained territory, which is now known as the disputed territories. Normally, when a country invades another country and the invading forces lose land in the process its not illegal for the defending country to capture the enemy's land for security. For some reason, this isn't the case for Israel. As far as 'the details that matter' that you raised, in 2000 Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered unprecedented concessions that most Israelis thought were dangerous with Arafat and President Clinton. Barak agreed to the creation of a contiguous Palestinian state in 97% of the West Bank with east Jerusalem as its capital, and to dismantle isolated settlements. According to U.S. peace negotiator Dennis Ross, Arafat rejected "every single one of the ideas". He walked away and started the 2nd Intifada.

[@DMU101]

@@ruthhenry9577 I think you’re missing the point. In 1967 surrounding Arab countries invaded Israel with the intent of destroying it. Israel captured land as a defensive measure and attempted several times to negotiate that land for peace. The Arab League refused to negotiate. What should be done next?

[@DMU101]

@@ruthhenry9577 there are several points you made that are factually incorrect. The U.N. Charter does not make all war illegal. Indeed, it expressly reaffirms the legality of a defensive war. Since defensive war is not illegal, it follows that the defender’s territorial gains from such a war would not be illegal. With regards to Germany, both East and West Germany were under US and USSR military occupation. As far as the walls and blockades are concerned, these were established because of constant terrorist and missile attacks. This may seem unreasonable to you but I guess you don’t live under the constant threat of terrorism. With regards to ethnic cleansing, that’s just a nasty and deliberately offensive accusation that has no merit in reality. Assad murdering 600,000 Syrians and sending millions into exile is ethnic cleansing. Turkey murdering up to 1.2 million Armenians is ethnic cleansing. The Palestinian population has grown by 155% in the last 32 years.

[@ghrosenb]

I came here to listen to an alternative course Israel might have. I heard nothing about that. I've left more convinced no one criticizing Israel's actions actually has a better idea. All this is just the chattering class ringing its hands safely protected from any consequences of what they say.

[@David99356]

Unfortunately, the large majority of people in the west who think that they understand the conflict are mistaken. They have fallen into the old error of thinking that all cultures are like their own. They need to bear mind that for the Islamists, who have a very large following in the Arab world, there is a different set of values. If Israel’s neighbors were Norwegian, we would’ve had peace 75 years ago.

[@celeritasc9207]

False equivalency. If Jewish people displaced Norwegians from over three quarters of their land, completely expelled hundreds of thousands of Norwegians, subjugated the remaining Norwegian population, denied them their fundamental human rights and freedoms; the State of Israel (in Norway) would not be a peaceful one. The Norwegians would fiercely fight to liberate themselves for as long as it took. If the rest of the world ignored the atrocities inflicted on the Norwegians, as they ignore the atrocities inflicted on the Palestinians, if legal help from the international community was denied as it is with the Palestinians, yes the Norwegians would use violence.

[@David99356]

@@celeritasc9207 the large majority of the so-called facts that you cited are just lies. Unfortunately, that is also part of the affliction in the Arab world. They have gone from being leaders in scientific advances in the Middle Ages, much more advanced than Christian society, to a frightening lack of education and rational thought, along with religious extremism.

[@celeritasc9207]

@@David99356Stating something is a lie doesn’t make it so. I have every human rights organization on the planet, including the Israeli one, and the UN along with the relevant UN resolutions to back up my assertions. What do you have? WRT to religious stuff, currently not all Muslims are lacking scientific acumen. I could cite Christian creationism for their unscientific endeavours and assertions. Besides that is not at all relevant to the situation that denies people fundamental human rights.

[@David99356]

@@celeritasc9207 I agree with you, stating that something is a lie does not make it so. But by the same token, stating that something is truth does not make it so. Those so-called human rights organizations are inherently biased against Israel, including the Israeli one. But in any case, they don’t confirm the historical background which you have presented. They talk about current alleged human rights abuses. The bottom line is that the Palestinians cannot move on from the past. We are not going to agree as to what happened, but if the Palestinians used rational thought they would’ve realized that they could’ve had a state many times over in the past 75 years. If I were a Palestinian, I would say that all the actions that I have taken over the past 75 years have led absolutely nowhere and just caused misery for my own people, let alone what it’s done to the Israelis. I would’ve said that just like population transfers and movements happen in every war, and people eventually get over it and build a new life focusing on the future, that’s what we should do. In fact, the 800,000 Jews, who were expelled or escaped from Arab countries after Israel was founded did exactly that. Sometimes you have to know how to move on. A large part of what is going on is a symptom of deeper problems within the wider Arab world.

[@ronnynoneofyourbusinessgoo7892]

To use Norway as an example is a fortunate choice here. 2016, on Finland's 100 year anniversary, Norway gave away one of it's mountains to Finland ("we have enough") so that Finland, which is flat, would basically have a better highest mountain. That's why Norway are good neighbors, they have a bigger horizon than some supremacist bronze age prophecy, some book scientifically shown to be full of translation errors, gaps, and scientific untruths. Also, as a Norwegian, picking between Israeli settlers and Palestinians, I would feel safer any day of the week with the Palestinians as my neighbors. I would sleep relatively safely, compared to land-grabbing, racially superior religious militarized Apartheid zealots.

[@baconmaster1023]

Simple. Withdraw. Completely. ALL settlements. ALL to 1947-based borders. ALL of it. Today.

[@sylviazak8183]

There is no perfect “solution” to this. As in life in general, “there are no solutions, there are only trade-offs”. The only question is which trade off do you choose?

[@NoJusticeNoProfit24]

No Solutions? After all misery those European Zionists so violently and arrogantly crushed the Palestinians you can not think of any solutions? Not one which Israelis walk away without any culpability, without justice. That’s called “Just Us”. To start, put down the arrogance. Put down the apartheid. You remember South Africa? They are still working out the crimes committed under apartheid...... toward Recognition and Reconciliation.

[@fahmad7194]

Try to stop occupying Palestinian territories 🤔

[@reuvenpolonskiy2544]

There are no Palestinian teritories.

[@Romana6794]

​@@reuvenpolonskiy2544 Who is territory is the West Bank and Gaza?

[@reuvenpolonskiy2544]

@@Romana6794Its Jewish.

[@1czechit1]

Modechai Kedar has an interesting alternative. He calls it Emirate solution and likens in to the United Arab Emirates. They control their lives, have autonomy. No political/cartel forcing them to do what they want. The tribe leader is the leader and he does what is best for his tribe.

[@keep-ukraine-free]

Your guest is wrong on several points. On one, he said @40:41 there's nothing Israel can do to get the hostages back. That's false. We all read Hamas' original demands, that they'd exchange the hostages for Palestinians kept in Israeli jails. Israel could have exchanged them. But it's becoming unlikely that deal will be sufficient, since Israel now has killed too many innocent Palestinians & children - close to 10 Palestinians for every 1 Israeli. By the time it ends, it'll be 20 to 1. WAY TOO MANY INNOCENT CIVILIANS STILL DYING.

[@ghosthunter0950]

They want Israel to release thousands of Hamas militants in exchange for the hostages. what a misrepresentation.

[@kronosDking]

Wasn't 'deterring' and 'weakening' the Hamas exact goal of every single military operation from 2008 until now? I'm not sure what makes Beauchamp think that this time will be any different. It certainly isn't a convincing argument to me.

[@reuvenpolonskiy2544]

What makes it diferent, are several things, among them: 1. The target is not to weaken HAMAS but to eradicate its military control over Gaza and to build a mechanism in place that will drasticaly reduce the chanes of such an organization to take the military control of Gaza again. 2. This time, the force applied and the determination are much bigger. People in Israeli now understand this as do or die.

[@kronosDking]

@@reuvenpolonskiy2544 Oh, I agree with you, but the guest here suggests that Israel only weaken and deter Hamas, like it has in the past.

[@bobmorane4926]

​@@reuvenpolonskiy2544The israelis brought this on themselves as they gamed all peace process to avoid any solution to the 2 state peace process. The usual rhetoric is that the palestinians refused the peace offers. Of course they would refuse if the vonditions attached are untenable like diapora pslestinians would still be refused to return back to their birth place and so forth. If peace offers are not sincere, this is what u get and it's only going to get worse when everyone starts scrutinizing what jews are all about and why Hitler hated them so much.

[@kathydittmer9659]

In all your thoughts here, I don’t hear you mention the fact that 2.5 million Palestinians have been held captive for 18 years. What do you think you would do? Sit back and do what?? I’m always surprised that all of these opinion pieces don’t mention how badly the Palestinians have been treated. Yes yes yes, the attack on Israel was horrible, but why do you suppose they attacked??

[@ghosthunter0950]

The blockades on Gaza are BECAUSE of terror attacks not the other way around. Israel pulled out every single soldier and citizen in 2005 and had open borders with Gaza until 2007 when Hamas took over and was doing many terror attacks, which is when both Israel and Egypt blockaded Gaza.

[@thomasdequincey5811]

My problem with what Isreal is doing now is that it has already tried all of this before, and it hasn't worked. Isresli military campaigns in Gaza haven't even worked to degrade Hamas, let alone "destroy" Hamas. As the U.S found out with Al Qaeda, you can't destroy an idea with Western missiles and guns.

[@andywomack3414]

Maybe what you see as not working is working really well for those making the policies.

[@Emanon...]

It's not about Hamas in the end. It's about using them as an excuse to expel Gazans from their lands and annex Gaza into Israel.

[@reuvenpolonskiy2544]

It works very well in Judea and Samaria, there Israel crushed the enemy resistance, has almost full military control, checkpoints, Jewish settelments, etc'. And the place is much less dangerous thanks to all that.

[@Emanon...]

@@reuvenpolonskiy2544 "Judea and Samaria"... I see we have a supremacist Zionist among us. No. They don't have the right to that land. That's settled international law, not an opinion - no matter what some fictious old book would make you believe. Also, I believe there were Philistines inhabiting these areas even in your "sources". How you can selectively try to erase an entire people after what Europeans attempted to do to you, is beyond me. The lies you people have to tell yourselves just to justify your crimes... I'd say shame on you, but you've already proven yourself shameless

[@oliverkeller4485]

What's happening is a ground invasion with the goal to remove Hamas from power in the Gaza strip. This is very different from what Israel has tried in the past, which is to contain and deter Hamas. There was a consensus among Israelis that trying to do what it is doing now would risk the lives of too many soldiers. After what happened on 10/7, now there is a wide consensus in the public that whatever Israel does, it has to lead to the end of the Hamas regime in Gaza. Nobody has the illusion that Hamas's ideas can be destroyed. But you can reduce the threat they pose. This happened with Qaeda and Da'esh, which are today much weaker than they used to be

[@mortenle]

I'm pro Israeli citizens and pro Palestinian citizens. They don't deserve the horrible governments they have.

[@ike637]

Leave the areas they stole from the Palestinians

[@rachelebgi]

Hamas themselves have fuel and sit on a lot of resources they don’t share with the Palestinians, so keeping the water and fuel is only punishing civilians. I am pro Israel but also feel that Israel needs to turn back on the water, electricity and fuel.

[@schrecksekunde2118]

do you think a siege battle of 100+ days is any less horrific if you have fuel and "resources" ? ask the people of Leningrad,as far as i know they were among the last who had the experience because it was so widely condemned

[@mindofown]

My Initial reaction to Hamas's massacre was deep empathy and sorrow for Israeli's and a hatred of Hamas, since I have seen what the Israeli Military has done to Gaza, I feel anger towards Israel and compassion for Palestinians.

[@schrecksekunde2118]

what a siege does is turn the relationship with hamas into a trauma bond like in the siege of Leningrad. it's never been the case that people rebelled against their partners in suffering especially when they're the ones organising the supply. it's going to turn worse

[@worsethanjoerogan8061]

You got it backward, though. Israel only imposed the blockades after Hamas was elected and started suicide bombing and firing rockets

[@schrecksekunde2118]

@@worsethanjoerogan8061 you mean the last blockades covering literally everything or do you mean the blockade prohibiting civilians from leaving and are the reason they need tunnels (you remember the tunnels i assume) to get building materials and old cars into Gaza? yes the whole "no water, medicine and food"-blockade is new but the restrictions before already were enough to make Gaza known as "largest open air prison worldwide" - i guess you also remember that. the whole world is watching in disbelief as a modern society consequently dismantles every understanding and support for it's "security policy" while calling everyone who dares to whisper "please would you explain your plan after destroying that city" and voices criticism on their fucking SIEGE anti-Semitic. even the American Jewry is at the point where they're done. it's enough and now it's time for two states. no more understanding and no more security bullshit without progress. it's horrific that they are at a point where they believe the rest of the world is ok with watching a city of 2 million being besieged and starved out and everyone who tries to legitimise that is a monster.

[@comets4sale]

Why are Israeli atrocities deemed repression rather than terrorism against the Palestinian? The moral hedging of Israeli gov't actions in this ongoing conflict is truly duplicitous. The lengths that pro-Israeli supporters will go to achieve the moral high ground for state sanctioned violence and killing is disgusting. Noam Chomsky has spent decades demystifying this moral double talk.

[@reuvenpolonskiy2544]

Becuase there are no Israeli atrocities towards the Palestinians beside in the Pro-Palestine propoganda

[@ghosthunter0950]

Israel is targeting Hamas not civilians. Hamas is targeting civilians. the most you could accuse Israel of is being neglectful of civilian lives, but A LOT of that blood lies on Hamas hands considering the way they operate by embedding themselves in civilians and the shelters they never built with the highest amounts of aid money the world has ever seen.

[@comets4sale]

@@ghosthunter0950 I disagree. This is specious--exactly the kind of moral grandstanding mentioned in my original post. And you know, fewer and fewer people are buying it.

[@ytqclys]

Don't we need to evaluate this in the context of strategic bombing by the Allies in WWII? As an older person, I have a general concern that WWII is no longer prominent in thinking about international relations, as a worst-case scenario.

[@FelixLaManna]

Jeez, I dont know? perhaps abide by International Law for a start? And then maybe have an honest open discussion on why Israel seems to think they are above it - and above everyone else

[@armanmkhitaryan27]

It'll never cross their minds...just reading this podcasts titles on Israel's war in Gaza makes it look almost identical to Russian state propaganda sites' article title if anyone can read Russian. Almost the same kind of framing.

[@aOneaTwoAndYouKnowWhatToDo]

And then Hamas and Hezbolla will do so too right?

[@lisacook8235]

International Law says many things. Both sides quote it, essentially talking past each other. Little context provided to clarify its applicability to the particulars of the case, just sweeping statements that clash with each other.

[@FelixLaManna]

@@lisacook8235 I think the one that says you cant collectively punish an adversary is kinda "applicable" here?

[@reuvenpolonskiy2544]

​@@FelixLaManna Isreal does not apply any policy of collective punishment on an adversary, its actions are targeting the deadly HAMAS enemy and similar terrorist groups in Gaza, and the target is elimination of any military capability or control of such groups, Israel is ready to stop at eny moment if these Neo-Nazis will surender, just like it was with the original Nazis in Berlin.

[@yvonnejoseph4841]

What should Israel do to bring more security to its people?....it should dismantle the tyrannical, apartheid genocidal regeime, recognise that they have stolen the land of Palesgine from the Palestinian people and seek to develop a fair and just society in which everyone has equal rights, fairness and justicé..

[@brandon09]

So what’s the answer????

[@maximiliankullmann7802]

There is no But they also dont want to say that Israel basicly hase to be this unhinged

[@keep-ukraine-free]

2 reasons explain Israel's incongruent & long-term-ineffective response. (1) BiBi is a mini-authoritarian, who LET this happen since he had to stop Israeli left's attacks on him - his govt leaders ignored Egypt's credible warning 3 days prior, of a serious "attack from Gaza in a week". He left south Israel unprotected since he moved the IDF north to help right=wing illegal "settlers" (2) After 10/7, BiBi amped up EVERYONE's anger & drummed up the call for vengeance. BiBi is as extremist as Hamas. He & his govt should be in jail with Hamas. Extremists on both sides caused this.

[@WilliamDuff-b3o]

Bibi IS an appalling criminal, as some in his government. No-one is as bad as Hamas, not even close. Eichmann? Maybe.

[@18_rabbit]

while entirely 'logical', it's pretty unlikely, as seen throughout history, ppl like the Israelis don't really need to do things like that. They are a very capable and sophisticated ppl, and what almost always happens w/ ppl like that, are they get too comfortable/complacent and most importantly DISTRACTED by divisive internal politics for the first time EVER in Israel to this extreme extent this past 18 months. THAt is likely why this happened. For those of us who understand security, it's a constant thing that without all the elements, collapses as a system entirely. Israel's intelligence security service warned the gvt that the politics were starting to jeapordize Israel's security generally including being an invitation to aggression by enemies

[@earthmama5659]

BIBI has to go! A two state solution must be established. Israel is NOT DOING THEMSELVES ANY FAVORS WITH THIS DESTRUCTION! ISRAEL CAN LEARN TO BE MUCH NICER TO THE PALESTINIANS IN ALL MANNER OF THINGS!

[@mikepriverguy]

How about enough is enough. 4000 kids dead. How about human dignity. I also understand the plight of Israel. I also wonder what is the answer. But that is above my pay grade. I just know that genocide is really really wrong.

[@russellmason4722]

Does a single statement from one person previously of the left who said that Hamas needs to be destroyed actually mean that all Israelis 'of all stripes are unified' around the need to do something? Not sure I see how one person changing their mind about something temporarily equates to everyone agreeing on a course of action.

[@lizzy-wx4rx]

Also, destroying Hamas is an objective. It has nothing to do with military tactics. I doubt the Israeli-American Holocaust scholar (and former IDF soldier) calling for a ceasefire is a Hamas sympathizer. This kind of argument is insulting to the listener.

[@kronosDking]

I am Israeli and yes, pretty much everyone here in Israel (other than absolute fringe leftists) are united around the need to do something. You can look at polls too, if you want.

[@karenmorris674]

In many ways, Netanyahu's judgement when it comes to Hamas has been flawed in significant ways for some time. His assessment has been off.

[@jamesbennett5430]

General Beauchamp is a little light on strategy - great magical thinker.

[@车匠修]

As always, well thought through discussion

[@maureencohen379]

Israel should go back to 1967 borders, stop restricting goods into those territories, recognize Palestinians right to exist, make reparations, stay out of Gaza and West Bank, and stop associating its actions as actions of World Jews

[@jeanninesilkey3878]

Netanyahu has made it clear or a long time, he does not Palestinians in Gaza. Why is this always ignored?

[@LawIV]

Engage in a single multi ethnic state

[@machsimillian14]

​​@mozartsghost5027this comment is ahistorical. Before the UN created the ethnostate of Israel... all different types of people were living peacefully in that land.

[@machsimillian14]

@mozartsghost5027 yes, you did exercise selective memory, that was the point of the comment. Way to dust off your hood as well grand wizard.

[@reprogrammingmind]

i'm just here for the breathing sounds

[@gil0ben0zvi]

I listened for a while to this "expert". He clearly speaks neither Arabic nor Persian, never lived near muslims, and probably doesn't even listen to what arab muslims speak among themselves. Probably didn't learn a thing from all American failures in Iraq and Afghanistan. Israel have a huge majority of population from the middle east: Arab jews, druze, bedouin, christians, Palestinians LGBT, Lebanese Maronite refugees and more - we learned to listen to them. looking at the long run: the only peaceful option for Israelis and the free world in the long run, preventing the upcoming catastrophe (in about 30 years) is retreating. the free world should take in the Israelis and the other oppressed christians inside the muslim lands, and expel any muslim that showed violence within - stop being blind. the other option for. Israel to survive is being cruel and merciless like the rest of the regimes in the region, but unlike the cold war - this will end in nuclear apocalypse, which is the probable end for this region with or without Israel I might add.

[@schrecksekunde2118]

as far as i can tell he's Israeli but feel free to google his name.

[@rodgerhempfing2921]

What would happen to me if i went to Texas and held up sign, ' give Texas back to Mexico, colonialism is evil.'

[@ecclairmayo4153]

All the talk about what Israel isnt doing right, but nobody is saying what they are supposed to do. The fact is, there is no way to save the hundreds of hostages without conflict. It seems as if people dont want Israel to even try to save the hostages, many of which are from countries that have nothing to do with this conflict.

[@meh3766]

They could actually negotiate for the hostages-- the one thing they didn't even mention attempting. Israel has held thousands of Palestinian hostages for years. They could trade hostages, which is what Hamas wanted to begin with.

[@ecclairmayo4153]

@@meh3766 - They absolutely attempted negotiating. We know this because the few hostages they have released were due to negoiations

[@meh3766]

@ecclairmayo4153 The hostages were released because they needed medical attention. Hamas even attempted to release 2 more hostages, but Israel initially refused to take them until coming under international condemnation for doing so. Even if you were right, though (which you are not, considering Israel has quite loudly refused any conditions on the release of the hostages which makes any negotiation totally moot since at that point its literally just a demand), then the reasonable thing to do would be to *continue to negotiate* since it secured the release of a handful of hostages, while indiscriminate carpet bombing has killed 30 of them.

[@Tespri]

The hostages are dead by now. These people are pure monsters and Israel knows it well. Only total psychopath celebrates death of children.

[@Tespri]

@@meh3766 what a low IQ response. Hamas has multiple times shown that there are no conditions that would be reasonable ever. Also no negotiation with terrorists that is international standard. "has held thousands of Palestinian hostages for years." objectively speaking false. Israel wanted to give gaza to egypt and Jordan for free. Both refuse to take it. Israel has also openly advocated two state solution. The wall only exists because palestinians are incapable to be human beings and not kill children on daily basis.

[@johnaweiss]

53:25 In 2005, all Israelis were removed, forcibly when necessary, from Gaza.

[@gooddaysahead1]

Does the word proportionality mean anything to anyone here?

[@reuvenpolonskiy2544]

How does this word relevant here?

[@gooddaysahead1]

@@reuvenpolonskiy2544 I don't know how to respond. It is obvious on its face, I thought. From the OED: "The principle that an action, a punishment, etc. should not be more severe than is necessary"

[@reuvenpolonskiy2544]

@@gooddaysahead1 In this case there is no operation of punishment though, the operation is to remove HAMAS military control over Gaza or somthig around those lines. This action in its essense is not only to save Israelis but also a grace for the civilians of Gaza, they have never suffered as much as under the boot of this tyranical organization.

[@gooddaysahead1]

@reuvenpolonskiy2544 I see you bought into the propaganda. Per capita, Palestinians have now suffered 400 9/11s. And you're saying it is for their own good. That's called moral deficit disorder. Oh, well. Let's just hope it's not contagious. The world doesn't need any more amorality.

[@SaHayes-it2uw]

But are the people responsible for the attacks even still in Gaza or did the get out with all the leaders?

[@18_rabbit]

the WHOLE point is that Israel wants no chance of a future Hamas to have operations there, or anywhere near Israel, but especially not there. Details of who is likely where, is top secret of course.

[@cynthiabrown9596]

Maybe stop occupying and oppressing their neighbors and it shouldn’t be that hard to not commit war crimes.

[@khattiseitap3367]

Can I ask a question that intrigues me: if we want to stop or reverse Jewish settlements in Palestine, where should those people go?

[@beanbrewer]

The same places they expected Palestinians to go when Isreal started pushing them out

[@ThatGuysAlright]

The way I see it, they can stay where they are, but under a new paradigm with a more free Palestinian led coalition under a 2 state solution with "settlements" as we know them dissolved; or they could have total freedom to move into an exclusively Israeli controlled region. If we're talking all of Israel being repealed, then I think you have a single 1 state solution that is free for both Israelis and Palestinians to occupy. This whole conflict started by Palestinians being forcefully removed and displaced, and I think Israel and these settlements have been around for so many generations at this point that full reversal of the displacement would only lead to more conflict. So I'd say the only middle ground is a single joint-country with free movement for all at this point.

[@NaimahAbbas-h4j]

Back to where they came from, i.e USA, Europe, etc. For example, were they running from violence when they left the USA ? No, Israel invites these people and tells them that they will be given land and housing and Israeli citizenship. Israel does this so that they can push out the Palestinians and populate the land with Jews from all over. Where is justice and fairness in this? Would you let anyone to kick you and your family from your home and take over?

[@CR7Ashironaldo]

The only solution -> Re-education

[@FelixLaManna]

What? a re-education funded by Israel?

[@scarletsletter4466]

True. That’s how the US helped create a thriving Japan & Germany in the 20th century. Unfortunately, there’s no appetite for this now because the world subscribes to the absurd fallacy that all ideologies are equal

[@Boymanjusri]

Re educate these Muslims to make them prosperous, secular and liberal. But is this possible?

[@FelixLaManna]

@@Boymanjusri Its definitely "possible" if they only have to aspire to "re-education" at the apparent level of your intellect

[@stanislovBrown]

I agree, both sides have a culture of black and white thinking. If Israel thinks there’s good reason to continue to deprive Palestine their state, If Israel believes, like the ultra-orthodox Jewish communities in Israel do, that God gave the land to them, then that’s a huge reeducation issue. The Oslo accords saw Palestine officially recognize the state of Israel. That can be built on. Hamas doesn’t represent Palestinians better than the PLO did. Hamas has support mostly because they are fighting back. A Palestinian group that effectively fought for their state without violence (at least not terrorism), could supplant Hamas easily. No need for reeducation camps, or to wait generations until the old thinking dies out, we have building blocks for thought changes now. Israel has the ball. They can give Palestine what is owed and eliminate the largest grievance. That is the best starting point. Return the borders to pre-1967 and then negotiate as a neighbor not an occupying force. The animus is self perpetuating with no end as long as Israel can be blamed as an occupier. Israel, as the one with all the power, will need to be the initiator.

[@ZelM-hz1ob]

This conversation is as it is a review on a violent computer game, justifying Israels violence against ALL palestinians

[@galabz]

Generally I find Ezra Klein a refreshing read and thinker. However I cannot I understand how you have this conversation as though the original sin here is what Hamas did on October 7… as though nothing at all preceded it…that Hamas is an irrational actor who should be eliminated and life in Israel goes back to sone moral normal!! Really!!! What about all the atrocities committed against the Palestinians that came before… the list is a legion? That does not figure in this equation or discussion? Can you really have that conversation simply on these terms? How complete is it?

[@machsimillian14]

In all of his segments since Oct 7th he's been like this. NYT shouldn't have him host any of these, his bias destroys any constructive conversations.

[@robertmonical9462]

How did you discuss the siege of Mariupol?

[@reuvenpolonskiy2544]

Its more like the siege of Berlin

[@leonidlando6528]

It seems that prior to 7/10 israel was following exactly this limited counter terrorism tactics of assasinations and limited incursions. It didnt work so well and allowed Hamas to grow enough to carry 7/10. Doesnt it warrant a change of strategy? Also it seems that US actually did topple Isis in ground invasion in the end and didnt limit itself to raids.

[@avibhagan]

You thought killing many innocent people on a regular basis was ever going to work well ?

[@ronnynoneofyourbusinessgoo7892]

There is probably also the possiblity that the strategy worked better than other available strategies *provided* you are not completely asleep at the the wheel in all possible ways really. That was not just one security breach, there were like a dozen. Where is the resilience in the system, particularly after seeing Berg-Karabach and Ukraine's trenches and what damage new tech like drones and Anti-Tank weapons can do. Honestly, paragliding into Israel, mass attacks, drone attacks to take out towers tunnels, new kind of tunnels, coming in boats- I have no background in this whatsoever, but this wouldn't have happened to me. These guys were too arrogant, but some foreign tree huggers on your team next time that don't belief their own hype and that Palestians are subhuman. It happened on holiday and on an anniversary. Are you kidding me? The guys practiced in the open. It's also possible a bluff. That's the first lesson in this kind of work. That they stopped using electronic coms, is also obvious-the other side always gets you when you do that, eventually you *only* use that to distract your enemy. Secondly, there is a way of thinking about it: that it was just an outlier event. There was no second 9/11 thankfully, but there might not have ever been one. Like maybe even a strong nation like the US has a terrorist 9/11 once a century or ever 200 years or whatnot. You can't prevent it by the best counterterrorism, that once in two life-times event. 10/7 though strikes me as completely and easily preventible by their previous policy. They just didn't follow it. They went on preparedness siesta apparently

[@laredolassoo]

Israel also supported and funded Hamas.

[@ignitespark9293]

@@laredolassoothe PLO was the last real Palestinian liberation army and they got infiltrated by shenbet and mossad before Arafat died. It looks like they allowed the attacks to evict the inhabitants of Gaza. It looks that way.

[@thomasdequincey5811]

Define "limited". I don't think anyone in Gaza would describe what Isreal has done to it as "limited". Secondly, I don't think Isreal has changed its strategy, it's the same failed strategy, but just more of it. Thirdly, you're wrong about ISIS. ISIS was defeated by the "destruction" of the Caliphate idea. Without the land for the Caliphate ISIS had no reason to exist. So, unless Isreal are going to kill, or expel every Gazan (Hamas takes it personnel from the people of Gaza), they are not going to be able to destroy Hamas.

[@marwar819]

Protesting against Israel's occupation and oppression is NOT antisemitism. It is support for Palestinians. Supporting Palestinians is NOT antisemitism. Stop the propaganda.

[@ayalasender]

Re morality of siege and ehy is Israel cutting off eleven and water to Gaza: the more correct question to ask is why is it even possible for a country to do that to another country? Gaza hasn't been "occupied" for the past 23 years. Yet, they do not have their own power plants or water systems. This is not due to lack of resources in that region but to one simple cause: Hamas, which has been in power for the past 17 years, has no interest in Palestinian wellbeing and welfare. They have diverted the billions of dollars they received each year from donations of well meaning organizations the world over, as well as Israeli taxpayers money which they receive through the Palestinian Authority, into their constant hate fuelled military efforts. Instead of constructing water desalination plants, power plants and infrastructure , not to mention building Gaza's economy they build tunnels and weapons. Oh, and instead of protecting their civilians in those tunnels in time of air strike, they force them to stay above ground as human shields. The other question I have to ask, with a more personal tone: do you really think that after Hamas committed the atrocities of October 7th massacre, including brutal murder, dismemberment and beheading of children babies and women, sexually assaulting our girls of all ages from babies to grandmothers, in such brutality and force to the point in which their bones were harmed in which many "civilians" willfully participated- such as looting, rape, improvised beheading with shovels, burning houses with the people alive within them, murdering dogs, and so much more unimaginable cruel actions -- Do you really think Israelis should be sending them free water and electricity as we do on a daily basis, even despite the fact that they even in "quiet" days (meaning days you don't hear news from the region because Hamas rockets that are shot on the regular to the surrounding Israeli villages on the Gaza border), and burn their fields, do not get retaliated by the IDF? Just think about it. No other government except a Jewish one would have given them a drop of water with such unfriendly neighbourly behaviour, let alone the free medical aid and food that Israeli hospitals and aid organizations give Gazans from our our goodness of heart, left unnoticed by the world of course. But the moment we stand up to protect our babies children and grandparents the world is furious with us and criminally confuse our self defence for genocide. Even though it was completely silent on the events of October 7th which were clearly and vocally INTENDED AS GENOCIDE! And promised to be repeated time and again untill all the land of Israel will be destroyed - in other words "cleansed from Jews". Yet the Palestinians and their woke supporters blame Israel for genocide. It is not only absurd. It is dangerous for the whole world that such behaviour will be tolerated even once. Because next the radical Islam intends to "liberate" Europe, and next after that will be also North America.

[@Randy-uu4mt]

The analogy with World War 2 is disingenuous. First, Israel is the occupier of Gaza. Second, the Allies helped rebuild Germany and Japan whereas Israel has the UN and other countries pay for its damage.

[@mariposahierra]

We need to address that the origins of authoritarianism, terrorism, and such inhumanity and violence are systemic in the very institutions they rise within/against….

[@joncheskin]

Now that the ground invasion is in full swing and 80% of the population has been displaced, the real question is actually whether they will ever be allowed back into their homes. Although it seems horrifying, Israel might simply retain a small enclave of land on the border with Egypt as a massive refugee camp which they could slowly diminish over time. I think this possibility is less unlikely than people think given that Hamas would indeed survive even under a repressive occupation and the Israelis do not want that to happen.

[@teddnagurski5583]

Watch the videos. It wasn't just Hamas that crossed the wall and attacked Israel.

[@WUWHere]

“then what should Israel do?” Well, Israel could respect Palestine and Palestinians right to exist in a sovereign country of their own based on pre-1967 land allocation with a connection between the WB and Gaza. Also, anyone currently living within the delineation of those borders gets automatic citizenship. Jews In Palestine would already have Israeli Citizenship and therefore the right to emigrate to Israel, but Israel could not categorically deny immigration of Palestinians. Same for Jews wanting to immigrate or become citizens of Palestine. Fair is fair. I listened to half of this video and no discussion of the origin of the conflict, so as much as I appreciate Ezra Klein, this conversation was pretty worthless . Hamas is bad. Israel is bad. A discussion of how to eradicate Hamas ignores the massive blue whale in the room.

[@kfcthanksgiving]

The things Israel needs to change were discussed in the last chunk of the video.

[@fasipetemitope5739]

Well said

[@rapier1954]

Israel might want to start by ending the Occupation in accordance with International Law.

[@rodgerhempfing2921]

And let terrorists run riot throughout Israel? Really?

[@Tespri]

Actually Israel is following international law. Arabs aren't.

[@sitcomfanatic100]

I find listening to former IDF soldiers speaking out to be more productive than Ezra Klein. There’s a community called Breaking the Silence, seems to have been around a while. Former IDF soldiers giving heartbreaking confessions. If former and current IDF soldiers are saying this is an occupation and Israel won’t be safe until all the repression ends, I take that very seriously. It can’t be being said lightly. Easy to have a podcast. I listened to an Israeli activist on MSNBC literally saying this is 2 tiered system here. Her husbands Arab. This does not need to be an indictment of the land or Israelis. It shouldn’t be. It is an indictment of a government and military. And just like any other government when wrong is being done, it will take good people to stand up and bring it to an end. Ezra, the western world has not shared with us the full picture, and it’s okay to say we don’t know the total story. For god sake people living in Israel are on video demanding an end to occupying Gaza. It’s 6 years ago. Jesus God why do we have to be so intractable! By the way, none of this podcast shit changes anything if we’re just upholding the status quo. Yes, Ezra, you are right. Israel should NOT be dropping bombs, wiping out mostly civilians, having leaders go on TV saying maybe drop an atom bomb on Gaza. And you want me to believe that’s normal?

[@Luckydog557]

One question, has the population of Ukraine suffered from lack of water and power? It’s seems that some Americans have selective outrage over the Gaza situation. Through the annals of time it is the civilians that suffer in wars. This is why are you avoid wars. This is why if the Palestinians need help maybe the Arab nations should assist their brothers with humanitarian assistance. The definition of ugly is WAR

[@Tespri]

Why is it Israel's responsibility to give power and water to people who want to gnocide them?

[@karenmorris674]

Seems to me that the power of beliefs, narratives and psychological significance of certain events people and groups hold has been discounted in dealing with "the other side" with tragic consequences.

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

"The main problem is that instead of healing the past injuries, people are using past injuries in order to justify inflicting more injuries. And this, you know as a historian, this is the curse of history, that people try to save the past instead of saving the future. We cannot go back to the past and correct the wrongs which were done in previous years or perious decades, we need to look to the future." - Yuval Noah Harrari.

[@rosemariemann1719]

@@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat Yes , this is the habit / tradition going back many thousands of years...😢. Tribes would fight over land and resources.. Raids would be avenged, then would follow probably permanent hatred , and further hostility...😢. The main difficulty with the terrorists is that they are confident their " god" will reward them after death.....so they almost welcome death : it's a death cult, in effect , which apparently does not respond to reason ...😢. It is denoted as a 💥terror💥 group, and nearby countries evidently don't WANT them...😢 . It is dreadfully sad , but I'm sure if they were not so willing to do atrocities and live in peace, all this 💥horror 💥now might not have happened....😢 Something surely could have been done with a joint effort by surrounding countries to make a new homeland for them : think of all the $billions already spent on armaments ..🐒💥😢... I am thinking , with deep sympathy , of the great musician , Daniel Baremboim, who got orchestra members from both "sides" happily together, sharing 🎼music 🎼, which is about the most life - affirming thing humans can do.... that's my honest opinion..🙂😢🎼.. All good wishes to people of peace..🌈. 🇬🇧🙂🦉😢🎼🌹😊🌈🦉🙂🇬🇧

[@gandydancer9710]

@@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat 10/7 wasn't in a previous year.

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

@@gandydancer9710 a year, 10 years, yesterday, it's all the same you can't change it. The point is you have to save the future. You can't save the past.

[@gandydancer9710]

@@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat You are advocating soppy-headed stupidity. You prevent future injury by disabling those who have shown by their actions in the past that they will continue to injure you in the future if allowed to.

[@StanislavaNew]

Stop it! Why would you take numbers or any information from HAMAS and put it on your frag? It is not about panishmet, it is about survival of Israel. Kapish?

[@laredolassoo]

The State Department, other countries' governments, the UN and international human rights orgs have all used,and found reliable upon verification, the numbers from the Gaza Ministry of Health.

[@solarpunkutopian]

I'd like to see the US condition military aid on a strategic pivot towards a political solution. At least something more pragmatic than a military-centric "beat the bad guys" that failed us is Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya. It's a waste of American taxpayer dollars to bankroll the same approach that failed them on Oct 7.

[@rgloria40]

What about Bethleham? Bethleham is located in the West Bank which is controlled by the elected Harmass government of Palestine. Human shields besides being extorted for protection money for decades...To make matters worse, extermist radical Jewish followers... Christian money being diverted...another mini tragedy waiting...

[@lanafeldman2553]

⁠@@Marcco22What’s the purpose of the insult? If you have a contrary opinion, please just state it. Thanks.

[@d2vid]

I second this. Clearly Hamas has to go for any chance at peace, but after that there's needs to be a clear two state solution and a Marshall Plan for reconstruction. If Gazans elect terrorists again like in 2006, well, I think we'll have our answer and clearly Gazans need to be moved so they stop.

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

I know this is a dream scenario that just politically isn't possible, but I like to fantasize that on October 8th, before Israel responds, Netanyahu gives a press conference calling on Saudi Arabia to sign the Abraham Accords, AND calling for an expanded normalization to happen between Israel, Iraq, Syria, Qatar, UAE, Kuwait, Libya, Niger, Mali, and Indonesia. Basically use the attack on October 7th as one gigantic political lever. Call out the Islamic World's bluff. Start a Greater Middle East Prosperity Group. Redirect all attention and all geopolitical pressure at Iran, redirect all the wrath at Iran. Convince the global community that Iran's nuclear program MUST be stopped. They had so much leverage. In an ideal world they could've done so much. EDIT: but then again, seeing how leftists in the West responded... I guess Israelis didn't actually have very much leverage because they're a "colonist apartheid state" who aren't colonial or segregated.

[@billcoleman4258]

The only acceptable “political solution” is for Israel to evacuate its population back to their “countries of origin”.

[@robertmonical9462]

A pity that you fail to identify "Gazan" medical authorities by their true designation: "Hamas" medical authorities. A detail omitted by all anti-Israel media. These are the same medical authorities who refused to show or name the 400+ so called killed in the hospital parking lot explosion.

[@lastriotgrrl]

Jesse are never allowed to win a war.

[@yonib1123]

actually Israel is allowing water and humanitarian aid to enter gaza for over two weeks now, I don't know why they ignore it in the discussion.

[@ChidubemEgwim]

Because it's only 4% of what's needed. The aid is a PR stunt that you fell for.

[@machsimillian14]

Why don't you Google that question, and you'll get your answer.

[@CoachMischa]

Am Chai Israel from Germany 🇩🇪❤️🇮🇱

[@tonykennedy1615]

Another Israshill. Be gone demon.

[@pappaflammyboi5799]

Palestinians want this conflict, they will never yield to any negotiations from Israel, unless it means their complete destruction or withdrawal from Israel, and all this talk about proportionate retaliatory response would be multiplied ten times, if the Palestinians were in the same military position and capabilities as the Israelis.

[@floridalife215]

Child brain, that's something only a Mediot would say.

[@zpasternack171]

The argument that it's not moral to collectively punish innocent civilians is logical IF they were not supporting Hamas. However, Gazans ARE both supporting and celebrating Hamas. They could end this very quickly (if they truly do not want Hamas rule) by condemning the barbarity of the attack on Israelis, refusing to countenance or tolerate the Hamas terrorists within their midst, and using the aid that has poured into Gaza to build a productive and civil society instead of tunnels and rockets.

[@henrymerrilees8501]

how many local armed terrorists have you gotten to leave in your life?

[@otakurocklee]

50% of Gazans are children. They are not supporting Hamas. And it's insane for you to expect them to be able to fight terrorists. They are unarmed civilians just trying to live.

[@ObaidHajji-xm7dn]

Today Nov 1st is the second massacre in Jabalia Refugee Camp in Gaza ( the second after yesterday Oct 31 which caused 500 casualties which the idf admitted of doing). The ny times analysis of the Alahli hospital bombardment showed that Israel was the responsible to that massacre 2 weeks ago that killed 500. There are over 3500 kids killed in Gaza as of today not including those unde rebels .Yet you still talk about Israel and idf as if they’re a trying not to hurt civilians and that they’re fighting terrorism. The only logical way of analysing the events the last few weeks is that there are no terrorism that is nearly close to the one that Israel has committed over the past 75 years and you have to admit they are genocidal. Shame on you picturing the conflict as if 2 equal powers are fighting each other

[@stevereal-]

Israel needs a 100 year plan modeled after the Marshall plan. Israel has to get it into their head. You have to financially, morally, and physically support the Palestinians for the next 100 years. It’s the only way and it won’t be easy. It’s going to be bloody, disappointing, upsetting, backstabbing but it can be done and life will be so much better for everyone.

[@lauchlanguddy1004]

israel needs to leave.. finish

[@d2vid]

The problem is there are more worthy recipients of such largesse - why not plow that money into sub-Saharan Africa? Yes, we helped Germany and Japan get back on their feet, but 100 years? At some point Palestinians need to stop acting the victims.

[@stevereal-]

@@d2vid This is about focus, commitment and problem solving and not off topic subject matter friend.

[@l.g.scheffer9249]

I was thinking that too.

[@l.g.scheffer9249]

That is, about the Marshall plan.

[@ba0cbmft]

I stole this podcast against KZbin ToS by listening to it with an ad-blocker turned on.

[@Bernard-fo2qo]

How many years did YASSIR ARAFAT turn down peace deals with Israel? How many Palestinians supported Hamas? If you voted for Hamas you are not an "innocent civilian".

[@BobQuigley]

I'm an old guy. Fell for the propaganda way back in 70s. Recently looked up facts. Turns out not a single deal guaranteed a nation state for Palestinians. Add this to fact that Israel itself came into existence through Jewish terrorist attacks. For 56 years every US leader called for two state solution. Of course US routinely and without consultation abandons any agreement! What nation would trust US.? Lies propaganda and forever wars of choice has replaced our once solid State Department. Now home to ex-military CIA FBI law enforcement and political stooges. One China policy-a lie Two state solution -lie. Weapons of mass destruction -lie Minsk agreement -lie. Born into the Korean war which 73 years later never settled. It was based on lies. Vietnam........well it goes on and on. Today we're 8 billion precious humans and every year another 80 million net new precious humans join us. US=4% Israel=.02%. The others 7.7 billion have had their fill of forever wars. Sanctions embargos unsupervised drone assassinations coups invasions have become US standard operating procedure.

[@markacohen1]

And if you voted for Netanyahu last election (ten elections)? If you voted for Bush you are responsible for torture and illegal wars that killed hundred of thousands, it you voted for LBJ you are responsible for Vietnam and My Lai. If you voted for the Constitution in 1789 you are responsible for Slavery and the Trail of Tears, right? Anyway, The last election in Gaza was in 2007 and half of Gazans are under 18...do the moral math.

[@onedaysoon3]

There was 1 election in 2007. 50% of Gazans are under the age of 15, so they never voted for Hamas.

[@ericshackleton9454]

Gazans are likely to pursue revenge supported by outside forces … Iran

[@noras.9774]

This the basic and the only question!

[@pamelaiken]

hamas is desperate and uses its main weapon, the civilians and blame game

[@Shaun.is.typing]

🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸❤️❤️❤️🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸

[@josuter3808]

Here is what can be done in Israel. The one v two state solution is at the end of this. DEMOCRACY 202 by josuter October 2023 For many people, democracy is the highest form of social organization and has done wondrous things for many people. Yet there are dark clouds on the horizon for democracy as the BRICs countries seem to be on the rise. What happened? How did democracy lose its power? One of the main problems is that the feedback structure has been lost or is becoming dysfunctional. Sure, we can vote every 2-4 years, but that kind of feedback may not be enough for a complex society. Any well functioning system must have good feedback loops, not only for internal regulation, but also to be able to respond to external changes. Good feedback can be defined here as useful information from the right place and at the right time. A system that cannot provide accurate and useful ideas to the right places has become corrupt. ( “corrupt” in the technical sense of not functioning the way it should). So we have decreased feedback to and from our leaders, but also to each other. We all make decisions as individuals but gather and filter information as groups. Mainstream media that had previously provided this feedback are now owned by big business and generally unaware of their loss of credibility. Democracy 101 was designed to prevent the re-accumulation of power in a monarchy. The designers did this by creating a distribution of power balance in the 3 branches of government, something that dictators do not have. It can be useful to examine the 3 main types of power: P1- Coercive Force of Arms, as described by Max Weber in the 19th Century (a.k.a. Barrel of a Gun), P2- Economic and financial power, and P3- Useful Information. Feedback falls into this last type. The task of Democracy 202 then, is to reconnect the channels of communication and accountability between leaders, citizens, and the outside world. We all have a bias, but we can set up a structure to balance the bias by creating small groups to provide useful feedback with an Information Gathering Process (IGP). The small groups can be a dozen people randomly mixed into teams of players and a panel of judges. Start with a specific Discussion Question (DQ), divide into teams and have the judges pick the best ideas. The DQ is chosen by sponsors or by the players. In order to get real change, one must engage people outside your own circle. The prize can be useful to bring in other people. Find a few people outside your usual group and mix them into the process. Show them how to do the IGP. We must push others to make decisions, even small decisions to start. Give them time to think, but also give them something to think about. Let’s use our natural desire for competition to challenge each other. Results must be seen as useful by leaders and decision makers. If not, they can repeat the process with another small group. This is not the same as focus groups. This is real competition with winners and losers. Outsiders will try to grab the type 1 and 2 Power Rings and so will meet a lot of resistance, including misinformation, slander, and personal attacks. The 3rd Power ring of Useful Information will continue to be essential for the working of the system however, and can be key to creating change when needed. Some leaders may not want more feedback and may continue to jail whistleblowers who give out too much information. People in power and those who surround them often feel they do not have to listen to outsiders. They will use talking heads to tell stories, sometimes powerful stories. Talking heads will always be talking heads, even after replacement by AI. The question is “Will listeners believe and act on it?” The IGP structure can provide deniability for individuals while still finding and moving useful information forward. The process must be efficient. Like any game, half an hour up to two hours is best, so multiple rounds can be done within 24 hours. Longer, more complex questions can be addressed by giving out the DQ, choosing teams, then recess for a day or two for players to find more info, then re-convene to play the game. The organizer should not pick a DQ that is too far ahead of the experience and understanding of the players but still challenge them. The same IGP structure can be use to: 1. Develop Better Questions 2. Push the results up the social ladder to leaders 3. Test results from other groups 4. Grow the groups 5. Start new IGP groups on other issues 6. Push to increase the number of people involved An example of an issue that could be addressed with IGP is waste in government - a big issue but starting small it can advance rapidly. If we get through the Gaza War safely, Israel and Palestinians must still decide on a one-state v two-state structure. IGP and Feedback can be used in either case and written into the constitution. e.g. People born in the month of January can be remove Politician X from office by a 2/3 vote. It is not necessary to have everyone vote on every issue to make it fair and balanced. This IGP structure looks a lot like a sandlot baseball game and somewhat artificial, but useful way to create a division of labor for gathering and filtering information. Like all sports, it is a temporary structure. The prize money can come from sponsors or, to make it self-sustaining, from the players themselves.

[@floridalife215]

Don't care what they do

[@מערכתמעוז]

Do you say that the US should have supplied food and fuel to Japan in WW2 ???

[@avibhagan]

To the Japanese Americans that they held in concentration camps , well yes. They needed to supply them with food and basic necessities . Palestine / Israel is not two states. It is one state and Isreal is the government of both the Palestinians and Israeli sides.

[@lauchlanguddy1004]

Palestinians actually own the land........ they did not start this war..... go check.

[@reuvenpolonskiy2544]

@@avibhagan Israel does not have control over Gaza.

[@reuvenpolonskiy2544]

@@lauchlanguddy1004 Palestinians own nothing they are invaders and squaters, and they started the war.

[@avibhagan]

@@reuvenpolonskiy2544 yes, they Do, hamas is the local government. Isreal holds taxes and disburses it to Hamas , just as a government disburses money to cities or to states. Yes, they have control of Gaza. Stop drinking the koolaide of Zionist misinformation.

[@Flashhood1425]

War history is unfortunately filled with examples of this type of total war scenario… Sherman’s March to the Sea, the Blitz, Firebombing Germany… they’ll be debating it for decades after.

[@18_rabbit]

this gazan situation vs those historical mega events, is not even vaguely in the same universe, of course. But i get the gist perhaps.

[@schrecksekunde2118]

or the siege of Leningrad with 60 years of solid communism afterwards because society went through a common trauma. people could evade Sherman. they can't in this case

[@Sharonnetofa1]

THats like saying that the Japanese in America = Japanese in Japan !. Israel does not control Gaza. Israel left every inch of Gaza in 2005. Gaza has a border to Egypt. So please also say the Gaza is part of Egypt...

[@motionthings]

I dare all listeners (and the host) to read the book "The Hundred Years' War on Palestine" written by Rashid Khalidi

[@danielpincus221]

Having Reddit, what do you think we should do?

[@gogudelagaze1585]

Quick check shows that it's an absolutely unbiased piece that reflects the full context and most definitely doesn't cherry pick and launch conspiracies that favour one side while completely refusing to accept any merit on the other side. /s If that is what you're deriving your opinion on these events, you might want to widen your horizon.

[@lisacook8235]

I just ordered it from Amazon, as a matter of fact.

[@crumbtember]

​@@gogudelagaze1585I don't know the book, but there is no merit to apartheid. The two sides are not equal here.

[@motionthings]

@@gogudelagaze1585 The book has 45 pages of footnotes. What do you consider being factually incorrect?

[@DuvAngel1]

Israel needs to call upon the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth son of the Living God, Who created them.

[@PFA...]

about 10:1 civilian casualty response. open air prison vs. most powerful and resource rich military in the region. get real, Israel needs to do better, don't give us crocodile tears ...

[@Shairony]

listened to about 22 minutes and this is DISGUSTING.

[@larryalan3518]

Just criticism with no solution

[@delfimoliveira8883]

The reason why Israel exists. It's got little to nothing to do with the Holocaust and religion. Israel was created after a conglomerate of bankers offered to help the UK win WW1 and then WW2, they did this with loans to US companies and more loans to the Soviets, once the war was won, twice, the British gave these shareholders the mandate of Palestine, which was agreed in the Balfour declaration. We live in a debt based society, where Capital is owned and disseminated by private organisations, loosely attached to a government or independent of it. The US dollar for example is owned and controlled by the Federal Reserve which is about as Federal as the Federal Express, it's a privately owned company with shareholders. The value of the dollar is derived from the fact that it is the currency used to settle international transactions for oil, which is why it's called "the Petrodollar". Petroleum is the lifeblood of any economy, either by obtaining it, or being able to sell it, the Nazi's learnt this the hard way, when they tried to win a war with coal and wood powered tanks at the end of WW2. These privately owned financial institutions make money from loans, the more/bigger the loans a government makes, the more interest they can collect. This is why every nation has a "National Debt". In most cases the productivity of the nations citizens is used as the collateral for that debt. In the UK we need to have a "National Insurance Number" in order to work, because we are the Nation's Insurance against it's debt obligations. Governments are in a position where they are unable to be independent from reliance on private financial creditors. The National Debt increases year on year, and with each new electorate, it only increases further to maintain their campaign promises. However, if you're completely dependent on needing access to credit, have overbearing debt obligations that you're obliged to honor, or are reliant on the purchase/sale of hydrocarbons to run your economy, and then fhese financial institutions don't like you, then you're f\*\*ked.For example, Saddam Hussain tried to sell Oil for Euro's instead of Dollars (the main difference being is that the European Central Bank is owned by a different bunch of shareholders than the Federal Reserve) and this upset the Federal Reserve, who loaned the US and UK government over $1 trillion to make sure that stops. Or what about Libya, Gaddafi wanted to create a gold backed Pan African currency similar to what the dollar used to be like before Nixon took the dollar off of the Gold standard. Not having a gold standard is great for institutions, because it means they can make even more loans without worrying about having enough gold as collateral for them. So the banks loaned loads of money to several Nato governments to make sure Gaddafi went bye bye too. Because the most expensive thing a financial institution can loan money for, is war! Ask yourself this, why has the entire globe seen less than 60 days of peace since the end of WW2? Because tanks and planes cost more and have way less longevity than hospitals and schools. If you're a financial institution, you can approve the loans for weapons to destroy, the schools and hospitals, and once they're destroyed, you can then approve the loan to rebuild them. You don't like it? Well no oil for you. War is the most profitable business when you live on a planet of debt slaves. These institutions got their first taste of genocide for oil in the Native American oil Rich Midwest of the United States. When demand outstripped supply they needed other sources of black gold. Iran and Saudi have already brokered a deal with China's help, this is all about OPEC threatening the petrodollar again. The Banks still don't have total control of all the Capital despite controlling the institutions that facilitate the transactions. These institutions are also on life support, because technology like Bitcoin could essentially make them redundant overnight, in a way that would be much more transparent, cheaper, faster, less reliant on war and debt, and make Capital weponisation or sanctions much more democratic and expensive. Which is why they're now desperate to start WW3. Because war generates the most revenue in terms of interest on loans.

[@Jivansings]

Well spoken. “What should Israel have done?” is the question to wrestle with before the “what now?”. The horrors of the igniting attack on Israel are being eclipsed by growing global condemnation of Israel’s relentless reaction to it.

[@1362pc]

Israel is being condemned because its committing war crimes...AGAIN....I think the world have had enough of what looks like Israeli genocide...the Jews have become the Nazis

[@gandydancer9710]

Maybe it's been eclipsed in your mind, but that's on you. And then there's those of us who think Israel's response hasn't been relentless enough.

[@blainedecker1]

Why is Israel held to a higher standard than any other country or military in the world. Answer: Anti-semitism Where was Kevin's bleeding heart for the civilians in Mosul or Fallujah? Where was his bleeding heart every day when 2 million people and 45,000 people were killed. Hamas is a cancer that must not be allowed to exist.

[@Wolf-hh4rv]

Yup of course it’s eclipsed, the current account is 10 thousand civilian deaths in Gaza of which 4000 children. Humanity exists in the West. Not in Israel.

[@Notcleverenough]

@@gandydancer9710 and yall are called "demons"

[@davidgodden333]

Re popularity of Hamas who knows among Gazans. They did vote for them, once. But we do know PA have postponed elections in West Bank for fear that Hamas would depose Fatah there too. So these thugs DO seem to speak for a majority of Palestinians.

[@davidrogers730]

Best thinking heard so far

[@lbamusic]

If you believe in God, then surely you believe that your God will hold you accountable for your opinions on this War and on the thousands of His creations who have been wantonly killed. Its not what Israel should have done, but what will Almighty God do to those who are complicit in this genocidal crime.

[@izzykhan7421]

I think the purpose of this podcast was to paralyse the listener through extravagant nuance.

[@bensanderson7144]

Ezra’s Jewish. His job at The NY Times is to give the illusion of compassionate liberal conservatism. With his tone, he’ll try to convince you he’s fair. But in the final analysis, he’s Jewish. No matter how hard he tries, he sides with Israel. So I’ll spell it out, for anyone who has taken the bait: Israel needs to grant full citizenship to all Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank, and they need to be treated as human beings. Once Ezra states this clearly without equivocation, then I’ll believe Israel is not an apartheid state

[@sj4632]

Spot on. He's a zionist shill at his heart...his beloved jews can do no wrong...

[@reuvenpolonskiy2544]

Isreal needs to do none of that suicidal nonsense.

[@GFMkidsComedy]

Israel must protect itself 🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱

[@GFMkidsComedy]

Palestine is not real

[@machsimillian14]

Whether he says this or not, Israel is still an apartheid state.

[@lonecandle5786]

Don't some polls show that Hamas is popular? Receiving over 50% support?

[@tengokuro]

Well, in 2006 they got 45%. Having said that, there were never any elections after that. I do think that by all I heard that they are more popular outside Gaza, but Gazans themselves mostly don't like them now, because their government is so garbage. They do like when they attack Israel though... But frankly If you hear this hole podcast, there's a lot of reasons for this people to hate the Israelis 😓.