If Veterans Ruled the World | Starship Troopers

[@KnowingBetter]

Be sure to check out the Director's Commentary on Twitch tomorrow - twitch.tv/knowingbetteryt Starcraft was inspired by Warhammer 40k, which itself was inspired by Starship Troopers. It's Starship Troopers all the way down.

[@jacobsocknesssucks5277]

First

[@adi6293]

I'm loving the outfit 😜

[@indigo22284]

DANNG!! Ten (10) extra minutes?! For real? Hmmmm ...

[@look-ma-no-handle]

@@indigo22284 I personally love Nebula and yes I can confirm the runtime on the Nebula version is 1:08:06

[@Ugly_German_Truths]

There might be a third option, KB ... Rascaki was originally detached from the military to teach as some sort of RR for his injury as he was't fully able to serve in a normal billet but was not yet out of his signed time... and when the semester ended he returned to some training post or fleet unit bringing him away from Buenos Aires.

[@MichieHoward]

Alternate title to this video; *This most anti-war anti-authoritarian movie ever produced inspired me somehow to join the military.*

[@DailyLifeSolution]

Please wath Sargon of Akkad's video on the same movie.

[@angeleyes2c]

@@DailyLifeSolution Don't. It's full of problematic interpretations and false dichotomies. Plus it's boring.

[@DailyLifeSolution]

@@angeleyes2c I watched it before recommending it.

[@angeleyes2c]

@@DailyLifeSolution Oh, of course that makes a lot of difference. Now it's totally not full of falsehoods and boring.

[@DailyLifeSolution]

@@angeleyes2c What is your peoblem? Can people not recommend a video? Can people not watch a video and come to a conclusion by themselves?

[@AlternateHistoryHub]

That voice sounds familiar. Fantastic video! I'm so glad to have been apart of it.

[@SlashinatorZ]

Starship troopers is a Warhammer movie

[@readjordan2257]

We love it when you voice act in these

[@readjordan2257]

@@Bolognamonster General Malcom Granger up in here tryna recruit us to the Electronic Arts Empire

[@alexlaza5301]

​@@SlashinatorZ And just like Warhammer 40k, many satires and dark humor of the Starship Trooper movie has been understood as some positive messages by many...

[@29wildfire55]

It was you! You sounded so familiar I just couldn't quite place it

[@jessew5152]

Fun fact about the shower scene, the actors agreed to do it only if the director and camera crew were also naked.

[@maxxcarver5502]

That's actually Awesome!

[@id2609]

'I'm doing my part!'

[@Lao_Xiashi]

This mini-thread is Great! Rah.

[@KickyFut]

It's only fair!😂

[@kirgan1000]

Not so fun fact, same sex shower in military is not that sexy, you are to tired to "enjoy" it....and she look like she want to sleep (as in rest, not sex)

[@1986fritzthecat]

starship troopers 2 has the best directors commentary quote which (its been a couple decades) but was something along the lines of "our budget was 2$ and we spent 1.5$ on the bus ride to the studio"

[@sleep_deprived_stormworker]

THERE IS A SECOND?!?!?!?!

[@bullettime001]

​@@sleep_deprived_stormworker There are 3 live actions movie and 3 CG movies

[@sleep_deprived_stormworker]

@@bullettime001 dang

[@EvaOwnsAll]

I can only suggest the first movie lol...

[@kartaltoth684]

@@EvaOwnsAll the CG ones are perfectly alright.

[@renard6012]

One of the most meaningful scenes was deleted from the movie: If I remember correctly, Rico finds the legless recruiter outside work, using some prosthetics that let him walk normally. He says everything is an act meant to discourage people from joining the military: If they are truly committed, they will see this mutilated man and still join regardless.

[@caitlinb]

When you realize all the teachers and most adults have extensive permanent injuries...

[@TitusCastiglione1503]

@@caitlinb That’s cause war sucks. People lose limbs and crap. They seem to take better care of their vets than we do…

[@electricfeverx976]

@@TitusCastiglione1503 it's kinda sad that the war mongering government of Starship Troopers has more respect for the men and women they knowingly throw at the meat grinder than most nations today do.

[@notNajimi]

@@TitusCastiglione1503 that’s somehow the most fantastical element of the work, that disabled veterans would be able to get jobs

[@TitusCastiglione1503]

@@notNajimi lol

[@therealuncleowen2588]

I think the book Jarhead described it best. No matter how anti-war a movie might be, young men will still be inspired by it, missing or dismissing the deeper message while humming along to Ride of the Valkyries.

[@salt_factory7566]

I can definitely see that point. When I was in my senior year of high school, my parents fought me tooth and nail not to enlist. They showed me every anti war movie imaginable. My response was effectively “That looks miserable, but someone’s got to do it. And I don’t see anyone else around willing to make a sacrifice.” It was Motarded beyond all compare, but I still partially admire my old naive enthusiasm. I’d probably be doing far worse off without the military anyway.

[@fullmetaljoker666]

The movie full metal jacket is what got me to enlist in the Marine Corps

[@salt_factory7566]

@@fullmetaljoker666 I think every Marine currently serving has seen full metal jacket before they joined.

[@butterflymage5623]

@@salt_factory7566 bruh, same. 😂

[@DPham1]

Young men want to be a part of something bigger than themselves that taps into that warrior spirit. It's an impulse as old as time. That's also why young men without fathers in their lives can end up joining gangs.

[@Leitis_Fella]

The part about a crime surge being caused by unspanked juvenile brigands was absolutely hilarious

[@TonyGonzales]

That's a paddling.

[@jpotter2086]

It was a VERY common conservative meme in the 20th century. It was a controversial topic from the 1950s to the 1990s, and there was a sea change in cultural attitudes and expert advice over that span. And yet, it is STILL common to hear this idiotic meme, when people grouse about kids being out of control cause their parents are "soft".

[@Spider-Too-Too]

@KKK Revolution literally the meme. upgrade, upgrade. oh shit. go back go back

[@vladstefan5216]

A very accurate and objective observation @KKK Revolution . I am sure no personal beliefs and opinions swayed that analysis of our modern times.

[@damonroberts7372]

Intentional. Heinlein had a sense of humour.

[@Rukhage]

Be prepared for the deluge of Helldivers 2 players coming here to get more info. A real life "Do You Want To Know More" moment.

[@Nagrachlp]

know better :p

[@bboi1489]

Helldivers is a ST game!?@?@?!?@?@,@

[@tVt2000]

@@bboi1489no just heavily inspired. Like insanely inspired, like they just threw green paint and robots and jellyfish everywhere else and added cooler terminology

[@SeraphCyan]

yeah I can say it inspired me to watch this video for the second time lmao

[@PhucYueh]

No, obviously. Its style is heavily based on what the movie of starship troopers, namely what it was trying and honestly failing to satirize.​@@bboi1489

[@day2148]

12:37 Actually Rasczak's presence is easily explanation as you're ignoring the 3rd option: Rasczak, for whatever reason, was away from Buenos Aires when the meteor hit, saw his family get smushed, and decided to re-enroll in the military out of anger. The movie even hinted at this potentiality when Rico discusses why Rasczak never smiles anymore.

[@kylebenjamin2356]

School would have just been getting out at that time

[@tyrant-den884]

or the movie itself is propaganda within its own universe.

[@dominickstewart433]

True they all graduated@@kylebenjamin2356

[@TheMonk72]

In the book Johnny's mother was visiting BA when the attack hit. He thought both his parents were there, actually. Lt Col Dubois was alive and well and we hear from him later in the story... because Johnny's home town was NOT BA.

[@Insufferable.Smartypants]

Right. Weren't they from the Philippines?

[@matthewmcneany]

"They get into a fight in the shower and agree to mutually respect each other" - not a euphemism.

[@gorsching]

Don't forget that Rico loses the fight. That's the best part. It's not till after he gets beat up that he's respected

[@commonpepe2270]

I'm sure there is a porno out there with that exact plot.

[@Yertle_Turtle]

@@commonpepe2270 what happens in the shower stays in the shower.

[@carlossaraiva8213]

A rightwinger of the 50s inadvertedly going full gay was a common occurence. There is a strong correlation between repressed homosexuality and conservatism.

[@TheSodiumazide]

@@carlossaraiva8213 Heinlein wasn't a conservative as you or I would use the term. He supported socialist Upton Sinclair in his bid for california governor. He certainly wasn't gay but he was a swinger and was very libertine personally despite holding alot of conservative positions on sex. However it wasn't repression it was more a "public vs private" thing.

[@CocoHutzpah]

It's amusing that the mobile infantry of the book are heavy inspiration for Warhammer 40k Space Marines (and if you go back to Rogue Trader, even more so) yet the movie turned the mobile infantry into the Imperial Guard.

[@Vitross]

Well to be fair, it was far too expensive for the movie to show the MI as mech troopers, so they had to show them as regular soldiers.

[@jizburg]

@@Vitross yea. And with 90s CGI those mec troopers would have looked horrendus and plasticy, better thag they fokused on the bugs because chitine looks plasticy and shiny in real life.

[@chrismills7703]

Seems like the book made them like super soldiers but the movie wanted to make clear they were expendable cogs in the machine, with cheap flimsy mass-produced armor and weapons

[@JohnTrustworthy]

The movie turned the MI into a random PDF. The Morita rifle didn't even have iron sights.

[@loonyt22]

IIRC, the book's mobile infantry had standard tactics of using those jump suits to go high enough so they could throw mininukes onto the battlefield, quite a world different from the movie.

[@Baldwin-iv445]

My personal theory for Rasczak going from teacher to soldier again is that he wasn't actually retired, just in reserve, and was called to active duty after the bug rock strike, which he survived since he went on vacation for the school summer.

[@oldmonkeysmeg12]

That’s pretty much every military contract, I’m in the reserve list until I’m 55

[@oldmonkeysmeg12]

@@im_mid_afwhy would he rejoin almost a year before the bug meteor attack?

[@michaelsnyder3871]

In the book, the teacher is a retired (medically) lieutenant colonel, and despite advanced prosthetics as shown with the recruiting/reception NCO, they aren't sufficient for active duty in the Mobile Infantry. Again, in the book, the MI is MI because they use highly mobile armored combat suits. The suits work by picking up movement from receptors in the suit activated by touch with the skin. Imagine what would happen if your prosthetic limb came loose inside your suit. In the book, Rasczak is Rico's SECOND platoon leader, Rico's first experience being the drop on Klendathu. In the "Routhnecks", his platoon was making "hit and run" attacks on the "Bugs" and their allies, because of the losses on the big offensive against Klendathu. Also, in the book, the "bugs" have weapons and starships.

[@randomsnow6510]

least fascy looking commentator pfp

[@paranoiawilldestroyya3238]

I took my son to see "Starship Troopers", but was kind of concerned about the R rating. I asked a theater employee about he reason for the rating. She said there was a shower scene in the movie with some nudity. I was okay with that; everyone has seen a naked body, and most will see at least one of each sex. She didn't say anything about people being ripped in half; I think we have become far to inured to violence and too sensitive to natural human reproductive functions.

[@deathstrike]

Look what is on the news virtually every single day? Shooting here, mass shooting there, drive by there as well. When does the media start realizing THEY are the problem? They sensationalize every single thing that will get them those sweet sweet ratings. Meanwhile our youth are virtually bathed in explicit sex and violent. I agree with you we will all see a naked body of same and opposite gender so that isn't such a big deal. But the gist of Starship Troopers is that their century has virtually no poverty, little crime (due in part to SEVERE punishment for all crimes) and a quality of life that seems quite good. I'm not saying a military government is the answer, but it certainly is both a book and the movie that provokes critical thinking and a "what if" style of presenting radical ideas.

[@occam7382]

@@deathstrike, I mean, this is also a movie whose main protagonists are primarily upper- and middle-class people, it's very likely that there is quite a bit of poverty in the UCF, and we just don't see it, becuase that's not the focus.

[@ROSHing1]

^didn't read the book

[@endorsedbryce]

Even as a kid it was always immensely confusing to me that sex, a typically positive thing was shunned while violence, an inherently negative, thing was glorified.

[@Mario_Angel_Medina]

The battle of Klendathu let me very disturb the first time I watched it back when I was 9 or 10 years old (specially because I had already watched the CGI cartoon some time prior... I was used to live-action films being more gory and sexual that their cartoon counterparts, but a hand blasted by shotgun fire is a thing, being dismembered alive by razor-sharp claws is on a totally differente level)

[@kirkdarling4120]

In the book, Zim gives Rico something to bite down on during his lashing with the clear implication that Zim himself had also suffered a lashing early in his own career.

[@8G00SE8]

That's in the movie too, he says "It helps, I know".

[@wiretamer5710]

That is made very clear in the movie too.

[@mattmarzula]

Gee... I wonder if it's also in the movie?

[@Nogardtist]

@@mattmarzula it is i remember it but he eventually drops it after few hits

[@Skywarslord]

I get the feeling that it might also be in the movie…

[@gaillewis5472]

When this movie came out, a friend of mine who read the book (now a pandemic shut-in) suggested we see it. I thought the propaganda satire was hilarious. It's scary how advertisement for both consumer goods and the military look like this now. Every once in a while, I'll hang out with my sister and while watching TV and she'll whisper, "Do you want to know more?" We both crack up.

[@davidanderson_surrey_bc]

How many times have you been watching a KZbin video when an ad video interrupts -- and at its end there's a button you can click on to "learn more".

[@fnhatic6694]

Advertisements for the military are about gay sex now, dude.

[@pyropulseIXXI]

It isn't satire, despite if the director intended that. Starship Troopers genuinely shows the virtues of such a society and how it is a good thing. People twisting that into it supporting terrible wars don't understand. Also, propaganda can be a good thing

[@ultra-papasmurf]

@@pyropulseIXXI ok buddy

[@robdeskrd]

@@pyropulseIXXI I read the book & I saw the movie, that movie was satire almost entirely unrelated to the book.... and proper-gander ain't even good for ganders let alone people!

[@Shimotivater]

The "Come on you apes, you wanna live forever?" line is actually a real famous military quote. Sgt. Maj Dan Daly was leading a charge against German machine gun bunkers when he said "Come on you sons of bitches, do you wanna live forever?". He had already received two medals of honor prior to this event.

[@harbl99]

This is the guy where Congress changed the rules so he couldn't have a _third_ MOH. Fat Electrician does an excellent potted biography of him; it's funny, informative, and well told.

[@matthewsilfer2010]

I made sure to scroll to check if someone commented this lol

[@GTGibbs]

This is the incident that prompted the “No 3 MOH’s Dan Daly was a Stud. Chesty who? LOL

[@AlexanderSwan-f2d]

It comes from Fredrick the great at the battle of kolin

[@Aryasvitkona]

​@@harbl99yeah I came here to say this. The LITERAL ONLY reason he didn't get a third MOH for that quote was the government making it illegal to give him a third (they still gave him a distinguished service medal iirc, the one below MOH)

[@VidVoyager4559]

What I remember from the book about the K9 unit was that the handler and the animal became so attached to one another, due to the fact that it was usually the handlers own dog and the physic implants, that if the animal were to die in combat/recon, the handler would soon follow due to a mental breakdown.

[@hossep2695]

If the handler dies, they kill the dog to spare it. If the dog dies, they put the handler through months of rehab and therapy, because they're not allowed to kill them, even though it would be more humane.

[@Rileylego-fq6wc]

In the book WWZ when the dogs died handlers would try to save them from zombies and they would just be let go to die trying to save their dog.

[@olivermorin3303]

And if the human was killed, the dog was euthanized.

[@davidgrinnell9945]

11:00 actually a common tactic throughout history is to send your weaker units in first to "absorb or soften the enemy" before sending in your stronger units to finish off the rest.

[@Zaichata]

It's also a way to recon the enemy's capabilities without risking your stronger units. Not to mention that if you send the best of the best and they get crushed while the rookies are sitting on the bench, the new guys are probably not going to have the best morale going in if they go in at all. That was a part of the reason why Rome's manipular system was categorized by experience, with the Velites, Hastati, Principes and Triarii.

[@Nepomniachtchi_Austin]

True and mostly with disciplinary units even as far back as ancient times. I think the last major case of this happening was with the Red Army during WWII. Go forward and die to the Germans or retreat and be killed by the Russians.

[@derianvandalsen]

Also, if any of the first wave survive they have been blooded and can be expected to bring back that experience

[@MA_KA_PA_TIE]

@@Nepomniachtchi_Austin id say the Chinese in the Korean war just sending waves and waves of men to the point claymore mines were invented is not too far off.

[@inquisitorsteele8397]

@@MA_KA_PA_TIE Not quite though. PLA's during korean war usually relied on series of short attacks conduct by small infiltration squads rather than mass human wave charge though. At least until one of the squad identified weak points in the line before send in entire regiment or to overrun the said weak point en mass.

[@flameblade5127]

KB: “I want to stop making hour long videos and get back to 20-30 minutes” Also KB: makes every video exactly 1 hour

[@seandawson5899]

I live for the hour long videos.

[@SpecialEDy]

Wrong, it's 13 seconds less than a hour.

[@Ugly_German_Truths]

Well it's 30 mins about the movie and 30 mins about the very different book so... goal accomplished!

[@FOSsiiLz]

And I hope he keeps it up!

[@ratoh1710]

Don't tempt him or the next one might be feature length

[@amdinga561]

One thing I missed til now is revealed w/ Rico's answer on the difference between civilian and a citizen: "A citizen accepts personal responsibility for the safety of the body politik." Humans are the same as the bugs. We have a worker class and a soldier class, and it's the soldier class's highest aspiration to die, unquestioning, for the hive.

[@SirKickBan]

It's also notable that, visually speaking, when the MIs and the bugs meet in battle they're both depicted as two giant, unorganized swarms running into melee combat with eachother.

[@Erduk]

Wow, that is a total mischaracterization of the MI and Citizenship. You have to VOLUNTEER to join. Rico could easily have chosen to be a rich businessman's son and that's all. But the Federation believed that something earned was something treasured and so if worthless maggotbrains like you want to exercise force over me you have to at least learn something first.

[@MrSirwolf2001]

Our soldiers' highest aspiration is to keep their hive safe from all of the other hives by either discouraging the attack in the first place or making the other poor bastard die for his hive.

[@eriolduterion8855]

This was actually addressed in one of the commentaries about the Bugs compared to the Chinese Communists during the MI training commenting on the efficiency of the Bugs and it being a net loss to the Humans when (some LARGE number I don't remember ) of Bugs were killed at the cost of 1 human life) .

[@Phoenix-ej2sh]

This like is for cosplay helmets on ferrets.

[@EnigmaMachinist]

This was the exact moment I remembered to hit the Like button!

[@ex-navyspook]

I know! Too dang cute!

[@FranTRf]

As someone from Argentina, some insight about the blonde blue eyed person in Buenos Aires: that's actually not quite uncommon here. Due to being a port city, the number of immigrants that arrived here was HUGE, more so around World Wart 2 and shortly after. Lots of ukrainian, polish, Italian, Spanish, swedish, french... Lots of small hubs for each country formed in Buenos Aires and not all of them ended up mixing with the local populace, hence the spectrum of skin color in Argentina is HUGE.

[@lucascoval828]

Based.

[@Marksman3434]

It's kinda funny how so many people kinda overlook the idea that Latin America is composed also of European immigrants that arrived less than a couple of generations ago that can also be white, blue-eyed blondes. I'm from Venezuela, and this spectrum you mention also happens there, though I'd say there's a lot more mixing than in Argentina, and the lighter-skinned people tend to have settled more in the main cities too, not so much the rural areas.

[@baronofbahlingen9662]

I was going to say this. And there are a lot of non-Nazi German descendants all over the coast of South America. Most prominently in Venezuela, Brazil, Argentina, and Chile. The idea of “brown” Latin Americans is very very American centric.

[@francesco8000]

A fun data that show how right you are there are only 2 countries on Earth where the majority of the population has Italian origin: one is Italy and the other is Argentina.

[@steelsolider95]

Talk about the nazi descended Bavarian towns in the middle of Argentina

[@Caseyuptobat]

Fun fact regarding the anime version of Rico: the blonde hair and blue eyes were to cash in on his thematic similarities to a young Char Aznable from the original Mobile Suit Gundam, which had similarly taken its own shots at lampooning fascism a few years before the Starship Troopers anime aired.

[@felixcarter1435]

Did it put actual fascism in its satire, unlike Verhoeven?

[@glockenspiel604]

​@Felix Carter I'd say yes, in gundam the space nation of zeon was a republic with two major political families plus one visionary leader who had his own personality cult. One of these families assassinates the beloved leader as well as one of their own to make it look like the other family was making a powerplay so they could push them put of power and take total control of the nation with the head of the family becoming the Supreme leader with total authority.

[@hellacoorinna9995]

​@@glockenspiel604 Seig Zeon

[@LadyoftheLab]

​@@felixcarter1435 the main villain's dad literally says "have you ever heard of Adolf Hitler?" To which the son responds "He sounded like a great guy."

[@felixcarter1435]

@@LadyoftheLab Most of my issue with NPC commentary on ST is that it has made people not understand what fascism really is. It's not 'having a military' or 'black trenchcoats'. Fascism is best defined as extremely centralized/unchallenged authority. While your point about Hitler affection is probably correct, I don't know if just that is enough to make it fascist.

[@hugoHHS]

Here because I started playing helldivers 2, which led me to re-watch Starship Troopers, which reminded me why I liked so much Verhoeven's movie. Thank you for this video, it was very interesting to get an insight of the book.

[@88Xlmk]

This sounds like Athenian Democracy - Only adult male Athenian citizens who had completed their military training as ephebes had the right to vote in Athens. Similar thing in Sparta - every male citizen over the age of 30 and being a soldier is mandatory, so in the end a soldier with experience is making the decisions.

[@nathanbruce1992]

Didnt sparta have a king?

[@JBGARINGAN]

Rome as well, except the status of citizen is not bound by military service though many citizens did earn their citizen status by military service. Auxiliary soldiers (non citizens which made up half the army) when their 10-20 year service is complete are granted citizenship and their sons can inherit that citizenship. This how Rome went from a city state to subjugating the Latins, Etruscans, and Italics. They assimilated as they conquered, when all of Italy was fully integrated into Roman culture they went into southern Gaul, Iberia, Sicily, and North Africa. Legionnaires are soldiers who were already citizens, they were rewarded a few acres of land to farm and make a good living after their service. This is how the empire expanded, driven by this cycle of soldiers who fight and win the wars settling in the new territories with citizenship and the new soldiers that take their place wanting to fight another war again. In addition to this the whole governing body is made up of veterans, the cursus honorum or the political career hierarchy can only be started when one has served ten years in the army and attain the rank of tribune. Therefore in theory all men in government and the senate would have accomplished their place by merit and therefore would be worthy of their post. However towards the later period of the Republic the system was blatantly ignored and was perverted and corrupted by the power of the wealthy seeping into the establishment and soon enough essentially men were appointed and remove to posts by the general who possessed Rome at the time by the whim of their political loyalties: Marius, Sulla, Marius again, Pompey then Caesar, and finally Augustus who would then take away the power from the rotten senate invested in the imperator, the senate would remain to maintain the old republican tradition but by all means Rome was now once again a monarchy though not nessecarily heriditary as imperators chose their heirs which though under dynasties like the Julio-Claudian and Flavian gens would be heriditary, later emperors would opt to adopt non related competent friends.

[@baronofbahlingen9662]

@@nathanbruce1992 yes but they also had some democratic institutions, but as he said, only for veterans.

[@88Xlmk]

@Cool Cat Thank you for mentioning it, I actually skipped it intentionally, but it is a valid point. As far as I know, there were two kings with equal authority, elder council and even one more group which is used to supervise the power of the other groups. I actually like both the spartan and Athenian systems - both look very practical.

[@christophergreen6595]

Of course in Sparta, there's lots of sexual abuse and 85% of the population are slaves. And to 'become a man'... you don't go into the wilderness and kill a wolf, you go into the slave neighborhood and kill an untrained man.

[@infblu3808]

11:20 In fact, this would be standard practice. The Romans did it as well. The first line is the newest element, youngest soldiers, least experienced. First, because you want to blood them as soon as possible. Second because you want your better troops in reserve to handle the issues that will arise after first contact. Third, so if an enemy is badly underestimated or a trap is sprung, your more valuable elements are not wasted and you can then react with a better understanding of the force you are engaged with.

[@nimblehuman]

Indeed, what you are describing is the velites -> hastati -> principes -> triarii organization of the Republican Roman army. The least veteran and lightest-equipped troops were always placed at the front line to start, with better equipped and more experienced troops in the rear ranks.

[@ADogNamedStay]

Facts.

[@amerigo88]

LindyBeige has a great video on Roman tactics and doctrine on his KZbin channel. The oldest soldiers were in the rearmost line and the Romans had an expression for a battle that had gone very badly. The message was, "It was so bad that the oldest troops had to bail us out."

[@Dj.MODÆO]

That’s how the empire in Star Wars works also. That’s why all the storm troopers had terrible aim, they were basically raw recruits.

[@josmo1363]

the practice of putting young untested troops into battle straight out of training is pretty standard Although this tactic is usually employed when said military force is not in the best position for success and therefore desperate

[@AdrianMartinez-gq7ne]

The "You want to live forever?" quote comes from Gunnery Sergeant Daniel Daly of the US Marine Corps, who was trying to spur on his company during an almost suicidal attack on German-held hill in the battle of Belleau Wood in WWI (he earned the Navy Cross from that battle).

[@dkroll92]

Frederick the Great supposedly said it in 1757. Maybe Daly was quoting/referencing him?

[@georgf9279]

But it was "Come on you sons of b*tches! Do you wanna live forever?"

[@jacobnormann6678]

6th Marine regiment, let’s fucking go

[@erraticonteuse]

@@dkroll92 It's a pretty common theme in military expression. Oda Nobunaga also (supposedly) said something similar 200 years before Frederick the Great did, and it is pretty unlikely he'd have even heard of Oda. Though it's incredibly likely that Daly had heard of Frederick the Great and his quote.

[@dirtyoldman3]

This is a myth

[@johnshaffer3405]

If I remember the book correctly federal service doesn't just include being in the military. It is also common for folks in universe to volunteer as medical test subjects for two years to test out various treatments and medications as their federal service.

[@Nonynonza]

Yea it was clear in the book. Rico was worried they'd be the only option for him in the military.

[@Kodaiva]

they also arent forced to serve too

[@Ronfost89]

The book is quite different. You could become a citizen through several methods of service, it was just military was the fastest guaranteed way to do so. The whole thing was about Rico learning to make his own decisions. The irony in it is he was fighting a race of legit fascist bugs that were actively enslaving and conquering other alien races. Even the movie doesn't do a good job at making humans that "bad" or "fascist". The bugs literally attacked Earth and have killed humans before that, I don't think responding to that with military force is exactly fascist.

[@NaturesFlame]

​@@Ronfost89 which is why that wasn't the point they were trying to make. The directors didn't say "defending yourself is fascist", they said "War makes fascists of us all".

[@Ronfost89]

@@NaturesFlame Not really considering the portrayal of society throughout the film before the war starts. He was saying "here is why a fascist nation is bad" but proceeded to show 0 fascism. I enjoy the movie but Verhoeven failed at even showing a single fascist like thing.

[@epoc162]

The sending basic training graduates with a new leader in a first wave makes total sense for a movie like this. The point is that command knew it would be bloody. Who is best lost? New recruits or seasoned veterans? In a military state, throwing bodies at a problem is not uncommon.

[@therussianyetishow1238]

Exactly, further justification for combat and not only that, working the public up into a frenzy for new recruits.

[@mstrSparkles]

The US did this for DDay as well. The more experienced troops would be alot less likely to take the risks. Stephen Ambrose's DDay book talks about it.

[@sock2828]

Some militaries in history have even used the tactic of forcing wave after wave of captured enemy civilians to attack a target so that military loses are as low as possible.

[@epoc162]

@@sock2828 that is true. Though in modern wars if you did this, would would have the entire world turn against you if you tried that.

[@memeshort7189]

@@sock2828 The mongols would round up villagers living around big cities and march them in front. Sometimes they would use the bodies to make bridges over moats or trenches.

[@angustin6590]

This movie has the same issue as Das Boot. The soundtrack is so good, it makes it hard to resist the urge to do your part. Also the teacher leading them into war is an homage to "Im Westen nichts Neues" (All quiet at the western front).

[@ephoratagora4179]

Music IS the drug....

[@RhodokTribesman]

What? Das Boot was extremely anti-war and from the perspective of those who were forced to fight in a needless war. Every character who believed in honor or "doing your part" in that movie was written as a blatant fool (i.e. the reporter at first, the political officer, the Kriegsmarine captains later on). I found it to be a pretty stoic take

[@angustin6590]

@@RhodokTribesman Das Boot wasn't perceived as "extremely anti-war" in Germany.

[@chrissoclone]

@@angustin6590 I believe it was, and I never saw it any other way.

[@juicebox9465]

Kantorek?

[@joshuaperry4112]

The reason I had always assumed that Johnny and co. end up with the Roughnecks is because Rasczak had never left the military - he was on an ROTC-style leave where he was assigned as a teacher of Morality; probably because only an officer on assignment could teach that class. I thought of it somewhat like how a recruiter has their job/specialization outside of being a recruiter: so technically you could be recruited by someone, then have that recruiter called to service and you could then be placed under their command. Basically, Rasczak was always active but his squad had not been activated until the Klandathu incident.

[@NeilCWCampbell]

Not read the book have you? All teachers of history and moral philosophy are veterans

[@grantarmbruster6591]

@@NeilCWCampbell my daughter loves the book and movie like I do but both of us fully understand the movie is not the book.

[@PhoenixLyon]

That was my thinking, too. ✌😸

[@purpleslog]

In the book there are two different characters that get folded into one character in the movie. That LT in the book is a minor character at best. The high school history and moral philosophy teacher is a major character in the book in my opinion.

[@kenrupert9983]

In the movie Klendathu happened after B A.

[@Violaphobia]

I don’t want to accuse Heinlein of not thinking too hard about the Sci-Fi part of his story, but if women have faster reflexes and can also use power armor then they should absolutely be in the mobile infantry

[@michaelsnyder3871]

The armor responds to and amplifies the action of movement of limbs and body. The armor is also designed for extended use. Women usually do not have the musculature or the physical endurance required by ground combat, even in combat powered armor.

[@Toanleigh]

They were better pilots, no? So it would have been a waste to put them on the ground, yes?

[@vennom14]

Love the movie, as an action comedy Love the book, same with Ender's Game Joined the Marine Corps, was sorely disappointed by the lack of bugs

[@vennom14]

@hognoxious No, that's a myth. They give out crayons as rewards, but being the Marine Corps, they gave us the cheap knock-off brand. If you wanted good quality, you had to buy crayola at the store

[@lv.99mastermind45]

stop lying, you joined to do your part, not to fight the bugs

[@vennom14]

@@lv.99mastermind45 it's true...

[@JML61576]

There were plenty of bugs around LeJeune =D

[@JumpDaddy70]

Thats what you get for eating crayons instead of jumping out of planes

[@johnnyandtheinsatiablevoid]

The football analogy really isn't all that complicated, friend. The ball is the bomb, and the endzone is the bug's gaping turd-cutter. Touchdown Buenos Aires

[@wtrdawnlord]

It's a bit of a stretch to get there though. Rico never had to jump on top of a big thrashing beast and blast a hole in it's armor at point blank range with an automatic weapon to be able to make a 1 yard pass into the hole for the touchdown.

[@SporeFreak2010]

🤣

[@Sheridan2LT]

@@wtrdawnlord It's not literal, the character is portrayed as an idiot.

[@Sheridan2LT]

Yeah he wasn't being literal lol.

[@darkcoeficient]

@@wtrdawnlord Adapt. Improvise. Overcome.

[@HaloFTW55]

Fun fact: Camp Arthur Currie was named after the Canadian General Arthur Currie, Currie was in charge of the Canadian Corps for most of the war after his division successfully fought off the first poison gas attack in history at a heavy cost (including one action where 2 battalions successfully conducted a bayonet charge across 300 yards of open ground under machine gun fire). After he was promoted to command what later became the Canadian Corps, Currie's use of detailed and well planned actions very often produced success and set a standard for the Canadian Army that is still followed today. More fun fact: Currie had his reputation dragged through the mud by Sam Hughes (Minister of Defense). Hughes himself was responsible for heavy mismanaging the war particularly the poor quality control of the the Canadian Ross rifle (which was one reason the aforementioned bayonet charge happened).

[@GrimRX]

Camp Arthur Currie also seems to be based on the geographical location of another fun Canadian Army gem: CFB Wainwright.

[@spaceman081447]

@Artyom Liu RE: ". . . Currie was in charge of the Canadian Corp . . ." It's spelled corps - and pronounced like "core." A corps is composed of two or more divisions. It is typically commanded by a lieutenant general.

[@HaloFTW55]

@@spaceman081447 I know, was very tired when typing it. But thanks, have corrected the comment.

[@HaloFTW55]

@@GrimRX I've never been to Painwright, heard a lot about it though.

[@GrimRX]

@@HaloFTW55 "Painwright" hah hah, yeah, that would be a good nickname for it. I've been there on and off far too many years of my life.

[@GasMaskTrenchCoat]

Something I never see in discussions of this book is the part where Rico tells us that soldiers receive briefings for their missions subliminally in their sleep from transmitters and speakers under their pillows. Also, while patrolling Planet P waiting for the bugs, soldiers take naps in the field in response to hypnotic suggestion, whether they want to or not. Rico tries to refuse taking a nap himself when he is informed that he just woke up and had been asleep for hours without him realizing it. Its never implied that this could be a bad thing in the book, but to me the implications are downright sinister. Soldiers with power armor and portable nukes can be brainwashed in their sleep and hypnotized to do things without them realizing it in response to a trigger phrase. And whose to say civilians are exempt? Maybe that's why there haven't been any revolts. Edit: I just recently finished The Forever War, and there are several similarities between them, one of which I noted in particular is that in the Forever War, the soldiers are hypnotized to be brutally ruthless in combat against their enemy (even though they didn't even know what they looked like at the time) and are activated with a trigger phrase.

[@JohnE9999]

That is a lie. Every trooper just has to say, I don't want to go, and he doesn't have to. He'll never be a citizen, but he won't be otherwiise punished. You lied and failed.

[@bobjoned3398]

Great book!!

[@gorymarty56]

Loved that book

[@malum9478]

@@JohnE9999 get a fuckin grip, dude.

[@pougetguillaume4632]

​@@JohnE9999"i respect your opinion but if you disagree with me i'll strip you of your rights then find someone else who agrees" How very kind of them, truly. How could this ever be interpreted as a form of fascism? At least in their grand magnanimity, the federation allows you to live. which is the absolute barest minimum if you ask me but who am i to judge _shrugs_

[@SoulExistence00]

The quote, "C'mon, you apes, you wanna live forever?" Was adapted from Marine First Sgt Dan Daly. On 10 June 1918, during the Battle of Belleau Wood, 44-year-old Marine Corps First Sergeant Dan Daly, armed with a pistol and hand grenades, single-handedly attacked and destroyed an enemy machine gun emplacement. It was the kind of action from which legends are born, but it was not even Daly’s most famous action that month. He is better known for his battle leadership four days earlier, when he urged his 73rd Machine Gun Company forward with words now legendary in the Marine Corps: “Come on, you sons of bitches; do you want to live forever?”

[@tenshisouran8560]

He was also known for the quote. Retreat hell we just got here. I believe that was the same person.

[@wangyanhui1303]

It could also been a quote from Prussian king Frederick II., who often fought along his soldiers. Rumors say that he shouted to fleeing soldiers in German: "Ihr verfluchten Kerls, wollt ihr denn ewig leben?" ("Damn fools, you want to live forever?")

[@uncletiggermclaren7592]

@@tenshisouran8560 Punctuation, it is your friend.

[@rainsong1803]

A sabayon fan I see

[@rainsong1803]

Sabaton

[@roberthicks1612]

The pair holding hands was so he could give her a knife. As a drill instructor, he had no chance of being in battle, so Zim deliberately tore up Ricco's discharge papers after being told they were the correct signature, saying he did not believe they were. This caused him to be demoted. He knew he could do little as an instructor. He might save lives as a combatant.

[@akulkis]

Good catch.

[@roberthicks1612]

@@akulkis Thanks

[@cchavezjr7]

I don't think that got him busted down. That's why the commanding officer looked at him and then turned his back. He knew that was the right thing to do to let Rico get back to serve and fight back for his family and city. I believe it was something that happened down the road. There was a lot of time from the beginning of the war to the final battle as Rico had gone from Private to field promotion LT. Also, there was enough time that "kids" were being recruited and gone through boot to be sent as reinforcements.

[@roberthicks1612]

@@cchavezjr7 Yea, BUT the sergeant was begging to be allowed to fight and even asked for a demotion. The officer said that his hands were tied. He stated the only way the sergeant could get into the fight was to get court marshaled and busted in rank. THAT is why he tore up the papers. Then the officer reported him for doing so, and he got busted in rank.

[@cchavezjr7]

@@roberthicks1612 I understand what you're saying but the actions of the commanding officer was to turn the back to "not see" what happened. The commanding officer also said that he needed Zim there so was not eager to get rid of him.

[@look-ma-no-handle]

This feels like an early Christmas. I can't get over how much I love this channel.

[@Annathroy]

Michael Ironside's voice is damn good and fits the movie perfectly aswell

[@HouseholdDog]

This kind of character is what he does best.

[@iitsCarml]

Sam Fisher my beloved ❤

[@grozwald]

No one ever seems to get the message that war is hell. I'll never forget my grandpa telling me, when I asked him of war, "It was just poor kids killing each other, and I pray you never have to experience that. Otherwise my friends died for nothing."

[@brody7714]

The entire US military industrial complex nauseates me, especially after they almost got one of my friends to join up… I’ve never hated anything more. And it brings me great shame that my country (Canada) isn’t so different…

[@markstrom3630]

​@@brody7714exactly why we need vets to lead our country they wont want to just escalate and send the young off to die like the rich politicians do today who are career politicians

[@mbeecher9921]

My grandfather never once spoke of war.

[@migBdk]

​@@markstrom3630that's exactly the opposite of what the book and movie show. They show a nation ruled by veterans who send their young ones to fight and die

[@sajiretto]

I have friends that enlisted in Azov, doing multiple tours. And then did it again last year. When I asked why, the answer was dual in nature. "Someone has too and it's fun.".

[@flyingwombat59]

The “unknown platoon sergeant” was Gunnery Sergeant, later Sergeant Major, Daniel Dailey, USMC at the Battle of Belleau Wood in 1918. The exact words were different than depicted in the book. Daily was awarded the Medal of Honor twice, in 1900 and 1915 respectively. He was awarded the Navy Cross for WWI

[@JuanSilva-ym9pf]

“Come on you sons of bitches, you want to live forever!” -Dan Daly

[@flyingwombat59]

@@JuanSilva-ym9pf According to one source, Daily, says he didn’t swear. I heard both versions.

[@JuanSilva-ym9pf]

@@flyingwombat59 did that source also spell his name correctly?

[@flyingwombat59]

@@JuanSilva-ym9pf if there are any spelling mistakes, if’s my fault

[@Dan-daley]

Shit whos the dan dailey

[@KeithBallardA]

Watching this right before 9/11 as a kid really put me in a messed up headspace for all of the 2000's that I was always afraid to talk about because the country was in such distressing lockstep.

[@Sablus]

Glad to see I wasn't the only one that even now is freaked out at the bloodfrothed rage coma we went into post 9/11 and how it accelerated a lot of bad into existence we are only just recognizing now.

[@method0123]

Interesting that you phrased it in that manner. Have you ever heard of "Operation Lockstep"?

[@impcec6734]

@@method0123 get out of here with that Q bullshit

[@method0123]

@@impcec6734 that what? Operation Lockstep is real. What does that have to do with Q?

[@lizardlegend42]

@@method0123 Dude, cop on. Stop touting shite conspiracy theories as though they're verified fact.

[@ryangordon5986]

Sir Arthur Currie was a highly successful general during WW1. He was the commander of the Canadian Corps. Interesting that the training base in the novel is named after him.

[@БеняХандзо]

@@privatecitizen5968Well, served as a desk jockey and then got the boot due to health problems. Suppose he never got over the fact he didn't get to earn any shiny medals.

[@709mash]

And Canada was one of the most successful fighting forces on the western front. They're also responsible for many of the articles in the Geneva convention. The no prisoners rule is one that comes to mind.

[@JJMain]

It is an actual place, no longer a base but still a military installation. I've done training there, so weird to see it mentioned here.

[@bobolobocus333]

@@709mash My incident was the Pavlov's Dog-training of the enemy

[@alecciarosewater7438]

"i just wanted a dumb movie about shooting bugs" I can see how works like Starcraft and Warhammer emerged from the desire to skip to the part where marines fight aliens

[@euansmith3699]

Yeah, 40k used to be a mild satire on totalitarianism and Thatcherite militarism; unfortunately, I kind of feel that has gone by the board these days. I talked to John Wagner once, and he said how disappointing it was to sign copies of his comics for fans who thought that Judge Dredd was the "good guy", and not a neo-fascist monster.

[@fromthefire4176]

Euan Smith imo it’s more understandable with older works like from the 80’s when this stuff was less clear. But writers need to be a bit more aware and considerate of the impact their works can have. I mean, war and violence are very hard to portray or utilize in a story without either clearly denouncing it and it’s appeal making it not cool at all, or celebrating and glorifying it to some degree. It’s problematic because people want to enjoy what they watch, read etc.

[@alecciarosewater7438]

@@fromthefire4176 The most interesting videogame plots ive seen over the last decade have been the ones that show the consequences of armed conflict. Blue Planet plays out like a tragedy. Brigador shows why mercenaries are a bad idea while Dark Future reconstructs cyberpunk as a genre by showing what happens outside of the cyberpunk cities. All three of these games are quick to get to the point where pilots shoot each other with lasers

[@SuperGman117]

Warhammer books still do a good job of telling you the Imperium are ABSOLUTELY NOT GOOD GUYS, but that's pretty much lost in the games. The games are still good, but they do have the problem of making the Imperium look more heroic than it actually is. Starcraft though... Starcraft is just a generic space opera that stole like half of its concepts from Warhammer. I actually like Starcraft, but not because it's "good" or anything. I can't really explain it, I just like it.

[@Dong_Harvey]

@@euansmith3699 it's kinda funny to me that the Judge Dredd movie, totally fun schlock' features a person named Rico that could be described as an adult version of Starship Troopers Rico As for the issue of fans not getting the point, similar stuff happens to 'Ghost in the Shell' and even 'Gundam', both of which slap the audience with horror and yet ultimately accidentally glorify it

[@bojangprodoktschns5428]

The audience not beeing able to understand the satire in this movie was quite frightening to see back when it was released. I think even Verhoeven was surprised that the US audience was so aligned with it's ideology that it became transparent despite the satirical exaggeration. It's like you'd grow a Hitler moustache to make fun of how silly that guy looked and then finding out you are living in a country where everybody is wearing one.

[@danclassic7065]

I never aligned with the Terran Federation's ideology, I just sort of ignored it. I always figured it was a fun but silly space action movie. I read the book about 8 years after the film was released, and then I started thinking harder about what the movie was trying to do. Watched the it again, and then I finally released it was a parody when Neil Patrick Harris came out in his gestapo uniform.

[@arrgghh1555]

I don't understand how people can't see it's obvious satire, especially when they constantly beat you over the head with scenes like Rico signing up and the recruiter with no limbs goes "The mobile infantry made me the man I am today" - Zoom in on mechanical hand/wheelchair.

[@LarsBlitzer]

It didn't help that the trailer they kept on playing to advertise it was mostly short cuts of various action scenes with Blur's "Song 2" playing throughout, so an American and Canadian audience was being primed to see it as a sincere action film.

[@XanderTuron]

@@LarsBlitzer Yeah, the ad campaign for the movie very much portrayed the film as a regular humanity fuck yeah sci-fi movie, which was not helped by the fact that anybody familiar with the original book would know that the book takes itself seriously. This primed the audience to expect a movie that took itself seriously and resulted in most people at the time not realizing that the movie wasn't celebrating the protagonists' perspective, but was basically saying look at how silly this all is.

[@SpoopySquid]

@@arrgghh1555 There are conservatives who unironically think RATM supports their worldview so this isn't that surprising

[@frankm.2850]

I forgot about the Mormon extremists bit. Given actual Mormon history, that's totally believable.

[@Spider-Too-Too]

if Mormon can start a country around the Utah region with borders around the mountain and choke points. They defi will.

[@MrJack1992]

@@Spider-Too-Too the Mormon nation would be a bunch of badlands, parts of Mexico and nearly all of Utah. Meanwhile rural Pennsylvania would be of the Amish extremists.

[@Spider-Too-Too]

@@MrJack1992 someone should make a video game based on this

[@jizburg]

Hah i totaly forgot about that part. Hillarious.

[@jizburg]

@@7LegSpiders but yea. Settling in a desolate land, and getting in trouble with the natives is not a new thing for mormons. ^^

[@709mash]

Who's back here after playing Helldivers 2?

[@Facade13]

watched the movie for the first time after playing the game and I appreciate both a lot more now

[@armorhide406]

How many I wonder don't get that Helldivers is satire

[@Thegreatercheese]

I don't really think it's satire in the same way the Starship Troopers movie was. It's more of a pastiche of the film that uses the same style as set dressing because the moment to moment gameplay isn't really satirising anything.

[@sksthrowaway2270]

@@Thegreatercheeseeh, I’d say the number of idiotic friendly fire incidents you’re liable to go through every game and the sheer disposability of these so-called “elite forces” satirizes how fascist regimes are inefficient and ultimately treat everyone as disposable regardless of how “elite” or “pure” they’re claimed to be

[@TheGominabear]

Actually the “Come on Apes, do you want to live forever?” Comes from Dan Daly at the battle of belleau woods. I love it’s inclusion though so motivating.

[@moretar]

I bet somebody replied "well, yes, I'd like to live forever actually"

[@kinagrill]

Retreat, hell! we just got here!

[@adammccoy5166]

Except Dan Daly said " Come on you sons of bitches, Do you want to live Forever" I guess they had to clean up the language

[@turtleanton6539]

​@@adammccoy5166i dont see why

[@kutter_ttl6786]

​​@@turtleanton6539Yeah, considering the film was rated R, it's weird they would feel the need to clean up sons of bitches.

[@daxisperry7644]

I'd say the fact that the only countries that ever get charged with war crimes are ones that lose the war, makes a pretty strong argument for violence being the ultimate authority.

[@able34bravo37]

The best part of Nuremburg was when the Allies had to drop the charges against the Germans for unrestricted submarine warfare because the Germans pointed out the British and Americans had just finished doing the exact same thing to the Japanese about two months earlier.

[@tsdobbi]

When countries win a war, or at the very least in this case, if they don't lose a war of capitulation. Obviously they don't charge their own "country" with war crimes, they charge individuals that carried them out. I mean, a number of US service people have been charged with crimes for their actions over the 20 year "war on terror".

[@daxisperry7644]

@@tsdobbi Fair point sir.

[@johnhansen2187]

@@tsdobbi This is a reason why troops only follow the battle plan handed down by the top, which often requires a ten to thirty minute wait while some intelligence chair warmer looks things up before you can shoot at anyone. This makes it impossible to win a war.

[@Thesavagesouls]

@@johnhansen2187 so true.

[@paytonkraft7564]

I would just like to say I watched all through the *ahem* awkward film trilogy and the animated movies for starship troopers. I thought it was a bit weird sending a green team in the first wave, until several years later when I realized how cold-hearted and authoritarian the UCF (United CITIZEN Federation) really is. Then it made sense, the guy at the recruiting station back at pre-retaliation Buenos Aires said it best: "Fresh meat for the grinder." Rico and his training buddies were an expendable probe. Not only had fleet GROSSLY underestimated the bugs, but the MI was sent in to see just how heavily colonized Klendathu really was.

[@th3highwayman]

I feel like it’s implied that the United Federation only stays together because they have a common enemy: the bugs. During the training segment of the movie, a guy asks the drill instructor, “why don’t we just nuke ‘em?” which is actually a pretty valid question, it’s not like the bugs can fire back, to which the DI throws a knife in his hand. When you consider that by prolonging and making the war go on for as long as possible, the Federation can’t splinter from infighting.

[@paytonkraft7564]

@@th3highwayman it is, yes, the federation's fascist psychology is deeply and irreversibly rooted. To the point that it can't survive without it.

[@SoulSoundMuisc]

It's a very old tactic. Even Phalanx formations did that, not just to be brutal but to "finish their training". Green troops would be in the front rank and the hardened veterans would be directly behind them to: Toughen them up. Keep them from breaking. Take their place in the rank when they fell. When your military has a surplus of manpower, it's just a thing which is done for mass troop formations.

[@sg0310]

There's plenty of real world examples of inexperienced troops being sent in blind, they get wiped out of lose the majority of their strength? Maybe rest them for a bit before either reinforcing them with replacements or putting them into new units. As a commander if you have to send troops in blind to a potentially very hostile environment it just makes more sense to send green troops because their loss will be felt the least, sure experienced units would probably fare better but that's why you save them for when you know what you're up against if at all possible.

[@paytonkraft7564]

@@sg0310 that's fair. Cold, but fair.

[@tamagothchic]

"The coup d'état failed" followed immediately by "there has never been a revolution" always gets a chuckle out of me

[@cmrscorpio]

When I was teenage male in the 90s, I loved Verhoven's movies because they had all the things I wanted to see in a movie. As an adult in my 40s, his movies have all the things I want to see presented in ways I want to think about.

[@AudieHolland]

I bet you haven't seen "Turkish Delight" "Katie Tipple" "Spetters"

[@denhanced5278]

Oh man, I had a primordial shiver run down my spine when you mentioned "Citizens who have done their service to the algorithm" during that ad. I think I just saw a glimpse of the horrible horrible future.

[@crgrier]

The future is now!

[@mcfarofinha134]

Remember, service guarantees citizenship!

[@FictionHubZA]

All hail the algorithm.

[@therealuncleowen2588]

In the People's Republic of China, that is basically their present day.

[@Mad_Oph]

I had a similar introduction to Starship Troopers. I saw the movie as a young kid, loved it and misunderstood it for all the regular reasons, then read the book and was disillusioned by the bleakness of it, and here I am now as an Army vet and I can appreciate not only the fun of the film but also the indictments it makes on everyone who watches it. Totally a classic in my opinion.

[@scottcantdance804]

It was one of the first times I saw boobs after puberty had started. It will always have a place in my heart.

[@SimonAshworthWood]

Starship Troopers indicts you warheads, not us peace activists.

[@panameadeplm]

the reality is that verhoeven is an idiot that didn't understand the point of the book, it has nothing to do with fascism at all, so why exactly is it a satire of fascism? The undeniable fact that violence IS the ultimate authority from which all other authority is derived is a monumentally important lesson that should be taught in schools, because it is only through the understanding of this fact that liberal democracy can exist, in opposition to statist authoritarian meat grinders like socialism and its offspring, fascism and communism

[@Grizabeebles]

@@panameadeplm -- I agree that use of force is the source from which all authority is derived. However, I disagree that violence is the supreme force. I think it would be interesting to read a companion book to Starship Troopers about someone who earned their franchise in the Federation through civil activism. By the universe's own logic, an individual could be assigned a job within the Federal bureaucracy, and then have to risk their life to expose some sort of corruption or mismanagement as a whistle-blower and protest organizer. After all, holding the state accountable through loyal opposition integral to the functioning of any parliamentary democracy.

[@Talsedoom]

I'm Russian, I served in army and a friend of mine served during war in Chechnya. We both still love this movie, but as any other served man... for a different reasons than in our teenage years. God Bless Paul Verhoeven.

[@thenoblepoptart]

a helldiver has the COURAGE to make the safety of super earth his PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY

[@ArthoR1992]

The enemy cannot push the dislike, if you disable it's hand.

[@louistournas120]

I like bush. I take shower but my back is hard for me to reach.

[@bf5175]

If you have never read "The Forever War" by Joe Haldeman, you should. It is in many ways a response (whether intentional or not) to Starship Troopers and one of the greatest anti-war science fiction stories ever written. Haldeman was a Vietnam combat veteran who was severely wounded in the war and while the Forever War is mainly an allegory for Vietnam it is a much more honest and critical take on the militarization of society than Starship Troopers. Heinlein was a naval officer, Haldeman was actually in the shit and knows personally the horror of infantry combat, something Heinlein had no personal experience with.

[@ruarrow2843]

this, exactly! thank you.

[@resurrectedwarriors1758]

As someone in the military, you have it in the inverse

[@rationalroundhead6739]

To play Devil's advocate here, the Troopers in Starship Troopers aren't really soldiers as they're portrayed in the film. They're wearing Mech suits, possibly the first example of a mech suit in Science fiction. The soldiers themselves are treated more like vehicle pilots. It's kind of a handwave, to say "All the problems of war can be solved with TECHNOLOGY! Invest in the MIC today!", Especially when the opening chapter has the protagonist drop a TACTICAL NUKE ON A CIVILIAN POPULATION and it's treated like a day's work. But it's not exactly him advocating for sending men into the meat grinder. Honestly, most of einlein's work read better as thought experiments, then Heinlein's actual pilosophical opinion. He sprinkles that in a lot, to be sure, but it's more "here's how this socially taboo thing could be justified, provided you had my mindset" then "here's how the world should be IRL." Otherwise, it's kind of hard reconciling the idea of Starship Troopers, Stranger in a strange land, AND the Moon is a Harsh Mistress all being Heinlein's manifesto.

[@me67galaxylife]

I mean in you shouldn't just say "war bad so no army" Sure war is hell, but what, you think that by thinking like that you'll just be left alone ? Hell no ! I'd say if you criticize Heinlein, then Hadlerman is just the polar opposite Also Heinlein isn't just some rich-ass bastard, he did want to serve but was rejected in ww2

[@bf5175]

@@me67galaxylife I have no clue what point you think you're making. Perhaps if you were better at expressing yourself I'd be able to understand.

[@marw9541]

"It is extremely weird they would send a basic unit straight out of training, together, with a new leader, in the first wave" Going to be hard for anyone to find that weird now after the Russian invasion

[@Gloomdrake]

Fascism just be like that

[@MichaelMills-hf4ft]

Not when you consider that this was not our 9 weeks basic, but a full year of intense, advanced training…

[@Pepe_Silvia]

@@Gloomdrake No. Man. That is not how military in fascist countries worked.

[@Gloomdrake]

@@Pepe_Silvia it's obviously how they work now

[@matarr222]

This may well fit your view - but in the original story Mobile Infantry are definitely not used as cannon fodder; they are rather kind of Special Forces.

[@MachineElf_Official]

I got recommended this after becoming obsessed with helldivers 2

[@MasterGeekMX]

26:48 "...were people were afraid to go out at night for fear of being mugged..." dude, 90% of latinamerica lives like that (including myself). And believe me, corporal punishment with the legendary "Mom's sandal" is quite well present.

[@gringocolombian9919]

😔

[@texaspowers4088]

This is honestly why I wish he would have focused more on the "civic classes" parts of the book. Heinlein specifically addresses over-paddling and using force in unjust and unnecessary ways. It's also why on a second or third reading of the book, that "boring opening scene where they just go down and break things" is actually the use of the philosophy expressed throughout the book being applied to Combat. The Skinnies begin the book as enemies of the Terrain Federation, but eventually they become allies. How this happens is directly related to a use of force which deterred further violence and cost the Skinnies time and resources to rebuild. They literally weren't there to kill, they were there to cause problems that the Skinnies would have to focus on rather than making war.

[@mangalores-x_x]

@@texaspowers4088 Doesn't change that this very idea is unreal nonsense and not how violence works aka not works. It implies coercing submission from another power and that somehow leading to positive relations because... ... ... the author wrote it that way. It is the complete opposite of how reality works. Plenty of direct case studies in the past 20 years why it does not work even with overwhelming firepower.

[@jon4139]

@@mangalores-x_x Why didn't it work in those examples? Also violence.

[@texaspowers4088]

@@mangalores-x_x What you are referring to is a shock and awe strategy. The MI are not using this kind of strategy. This strategy actually more closely aligns with some of today's military doctrine. Hit them hard and fast cause problems that they have to solve before they can retaliate and negotiate for peace while they rebuild. This is, in fact, an effective strategy especially if you are careful with your explosives and try your best to prevent civilian casualties instead of changing the definition of civilian like the Obama administration, which was neither careful or concerned about human life.

[@hajostork9351]

"we have an all-voluntary military - we already live in Starship Troopers" - actually, having only veterans vote was Heinleins idea of *preventing* what we have now: the poorest people being sent into war by politicians who themselves have never served, either as draft dodgers when there was draft or as civilians when "soldier is just a low-qualification job". Heinleins idea was that those people who decide over war and peace should be required to have first-hand experience of what they are deciding. That's also why the military was not allowed to reject any volunteers - if you really want to get into politics, you have the option, regardless who you are. All you need to do is learn the very basics at the one institution that defines the states power. So, while Starship Troopers is *not* an utopia, it *does* adress one of the worst failures of our current political system.

[@VeilingSun]

The political system does mirror one existing system that have existed and exists today on earth: Military dictatorships. They are real, where almost every single government official or decision making position is filled up with people who have served in the nation's military. Whatever you can say about the speculative pros or cons of this type of system, we have real measurable consequences and data of this type of people making this type of government. And with that in mind, military dictatorships are almost universally viewed extremely poorly. I know that some will say that these are not "democratic" like in Starship troopers, but in most places, those in power and in decision-making positions DO have the same support as the leaders in Starship troopers - They have the support of the military and its personnel, the same group of people who are the only ones who get to vote in Starship Troopers. On the issue of military vets making sure that causes are worth fighting for unlike people who have never served a day in their life, there is no guarantee that veterans of wars will be more pacific than a normal career politician of any other prior profession. The biggest wars, the most pointless wars on this planet, were initiated by people who served in their nation's military in the past. And I would argue that there is a trend where such military experience causes these vets, once in a position of power, to look to military coercion to achieve aims that could be achieved diplomatically or through non-violent political maneuvering. Each and every soldier's experience is different, and there is no guarantee that all soldiers, or even most soldiers, will have that anxious and begrudged use of violence that Heinlein relies on. For real world examples, Imperial Japan. Through decades long campaign of internal political assassinations, the Japanese military managed to achieved de facto dominance in the Japanese government decision-making process. They got to a point where the military can make unilateral decisions by themselves like invading another country... without informing the prime minister! They would later go on to install their own person into that role as the war went on. They made a false flag attack in Manchuria (Twice!), and invaded China, and expanded the war in China, again, without consulting anyone else in government. The foreign decisions that Imperial Japan made during WW2 are batshit insane. They couldn't fully defeat a middling power (China) fully within their striking range, so they tried to remedy this by attacking a near super power (US) that is almost completely out of their range of operations. This decision was undertaken when Japan had a Prime minister with a military background, and all nearly levels of government controlled by the military. Germany during this time also had a leader with a military background, who fought in one of the most destructive wars in history prior to achieving power, and he had shown no hesitation, non of the begrudged prudency to using violence that Heinlein speculates military personnel should possess, even after seeing the worst horrors of total industrial war. Hitler's political journey from start to end began everyday where he chose violence as the main answer to all of his problems. Look to Burma/Myanmar, their military have it in their constitution that military personnel will always retain a controlling majority in their democratic process, even after they freed Sun. Yet I think no one would argue that they are wise and prudent and restrained with their violence. The problem they are trying to address - that of undocumented peoples of have migrated to their country over the centuries - is not that unique of a problem. And yet they chose the worst possible solution. Going back in time. Sparta had almost universal military service, and they fought non-stop. The governments left behind by the Mongol conquerors across Asia were almost universally hyper violent. The first Emperor of China was a warlord and made sure that his soldiers staffed every important office in the new unified government. They used violence for basically everything. From rebellions, to complaints, to government employees being late. For a wide splattering of governments like this, look no further than the most destabilized countries. Local warlords come into power, puts his raider buddies into positions of power, and makes life miserable for everyone living under them. The typical anthem of organic and unplanned military dictatorships. With all of this in mind, I think it might be possible to speculate the opposite of what Heinlein posits here: That experience in the military, especially after bearing witness to outrageous amounts of violence, causes people to see violence as a far louder option to dealing with civil and international issues than people who have no history of service. Heinlein's starship troopers society is actually a very wacky, and ultimately self-serving societal speculation in the grossest manner: Heinlein served in WW2 and is a vet, and he says that should vets be the ones to govern then everything will be great. How is this different than the engineers saying that engineers should be the only ones to govern? As they are the ones who are building and wielding all of the technology that modern society is dependent on? Everyone else is an idiot and only an end user. How is this different than the farmers saying they should be the ones running things? As all society will collapse in a month without them? How is this any different than Plato/Socrates saying that the best kings are philosopher kings and that they should be made kings? As they are the only ones who are trained to seek and find the truth? How is this any different than lawyers ,or scientists, or garbagemen, or teachers, or businessmen etc. all saying that they should be the ones that run things? Governments, _good_ governments, are probably the most complicated things humans can ever build. A vast array of differing experiences are required to run it efficiently, to give it options it otherwise won't have and won't see, and to give balance to the options presented. Someone who thinks having one set of experience is ideal, has never seriously been involved in a successful decision-making group. Trust is vital in a peaceful world, and it can totally happen.

[@0g0mogosepikworld31]

@@VeilingSun reading your comment was extremely pleasant and there are also many more examples such as Turkey, Greece, many nations of South Africa and Indonesia which were once under military juntas and because of this they were extremely corrupt

[@mousesteam7882]

I wish we made are politicians take a politics and ethics class, because most aren't even good at their one job

[@jthebk3864]

@@VeilingSun I actually think governments can be done alot better alot easier, first off you should be required to do some sort of service to earn your right to vote whether that's community service, police service, working in the medical field, or military service. Then if you have any wishes to get a law passed you must be proficient and studied in that topic to pass any laws on that subject or at least go through a few days of training on the topic. That would solve alot of the nonsense laws that get passed, they also need to require that all laws be written plainly and as honestly as possible and make that punishable by the loss of ability to vote or work in government as punishment for trying to mislead people. They should also make all media outlets legally liable for any lies that they tell since many people vote off of what they hear in the news we need to fix the bias in media by making hardcore bias in media punishable by law so they can only state proven to be true facts. We also need term limits for every single position to prevent career politicians and a legal requirement to refuse all campaign donations because that's how corporate greed gets its input on our laws. Insider trading should also be punishable by imprisonment and loss of all ability to vote or work in politics. Most of all if the general consensus of the people is that a politician is corrupt or complicit in illegal activity and the public has lost faith in that politician there must be a way for the public to remove that politician from office peacefully. If we had all of those requirements we'd have a much better government. I think what starship troopers got right was the duty to planet it had nothing to do with countries and borders, the whole human race was motivated to do right by their world people can call that propaganda if they want but that's good propaganda if you ask me, motivating people to do right by their planet and be involved in government and building a better world through some service to that world is definitely a good thing. The authoritarianism and stuff worked in their world because everyone felt it was their duty to serve their country in some way. When people generally have little to no interest in making or country better it ends up being run by the wrong people.

[@jthebk3864]

@@VeilingSun I'd also argue the point you made about military veterans not being fit to work in government because they've "seen things" and they see violence as a loud solution to all things as incorrect some of the most anti war people are the ones who've experienced war and violence because they see the senseless waste of life because rich people are sending poor people off to die for political purposes or for control of resources. I think veterans are uniquely experienced in how the world actually works where as most non serving college graduates are steeped in philosophy that works on paper but never works in practice, hell most college graduates these days are being indoctrinated into thinking that socialism is the ideal setup when it's pretty much gone horribly wrong every time it's been put into practice. Point being is you should have actual life experience if you want to pass laws that dictate how people live their lives and how our country interacts with others. Saying veterans are prone to using war as a solution proves that you don't really know many veterans or at least how they think. Violence isn't something that you go through and desire to experience again.

[@dannybutler4581]

As an Iraq veteran, thanks for saying this. I've gotten so tired of saying it and people who never served responding like im not the one who understands something I experienced and they didn't...i mean it was enough for me to walk away from career, society, and family. Thanks for still trying

[@Mottleydude1]

That’s because those of us who didn’t serve lack the frame of reference to truly understand what you experienced. To often people are more focused on what they think and being right then just trying to listen to someone. So when I’m talking to a Vet and they begin to talk about their war experiences I do my best to just STFU and listen. I mean really listen without judgement or preconceived notions. In my heart of hearts I know I don’t know shit about the Iraq War and I sure as hell am not going to opine about it to a Vet. I’m not into stating empty platitudes to a Vet cause it takes little time and effort to say “Thank you for your service”. It does take time and effort to just listen and keep my mouth shut and try my best to understand even if ultimately I can’t. So good luck to you sir and if you ever need someone to just listen….

[@vegan-cannibal714]

@@Mottleydude1 thank you for openly admitting a lack of framework for understanding. I swear the next person that claims they understand war because they play a video game might get cut.

[@pyropulseIXXI]

If only veterans could vote, then we would have less pointless wars. They know the truth, and aren't so haphazard to throw lives away for stuff that is largely pointless People saying this movie is satire don't understand it. And just because the director says he made it as satire doesn't make it so; the work of the book obviously bleed through, and the director didn't fully understand his own biases This happens a lot when leftist make a meme that is making fun of people on the right but it turns out to be based af

[@Lao_Xiashi]

@@Mottleydude1 Speaking as a peacetime Marine with many "In the shit" 'Nam and Middle East Eras friends, I missed everything (and regret it), and I play by your very same rules. I just shut up and listen.

[@johnself6435]

@@Lao_Xiashi Yes. RA 1970/NG 1974. 30 Years in law enforcement and I still feel I have not paid my dues. I will never know what teddy bear like Marvin went through are how he got that citation for Valor. He did tell me he was doing three vials a day when he left

[@johnwoods7730]

I was an eleven year Navy veteran and spent seven weeks in a Greek prison on Rhodes during the '74 Cyprus war. The movie was excellent even if it was actually from the book by Robert Heinlein. I must still give you an 'A' for effort. Very good analysis.

[@stevenPounder-p4b]

The only thing this movie and the book have in common is the title and character names.

[@dannyhernandez1212]

Have you the book Armor by John Steakley?

[@bend1707]

@@dannyhernandez1212absolutely phenomenal book

[@SamuraiBonesie]

The only Warzone I’ve ever seen still fully scarred (as an American) was the Cyprus/N.Cyprus border. I hope you didn’t experience the worst of it.

[@J_Stronsky]

It's funny how many people I know who served, had the same path as you of ironically liking the movie for the wrong reasons, reading the book in a critical way, changing their views on militarism to a more nuanced position and then coming full circle to like the movie unironically for the right reasons. Myself, I loved the movie, joined the army and it was at the academy that a military history lecturer of mine just straight up told us to go read the book, no essay or anything - just, go read this and rethink your position. Very glad he did that. Great vid as always mate, love your stuff.

[@robertcurry389]

The service guarantees citizenship train of thought I feel like was inspired by the Greek states in the ancient world. There every “citizen” would take up arms to defend the city in times of need. Because of this his reward was he could vote and partake in the politics of the city.

[@tom9841]

Doesn't Heinlein explicitly state that there were other paths to being able to vote other than Military service? Anyone with two years of federal service could vote, not just veterans

[@MrBlueBurd0451]

@@tom9841 Yes, he does, and he even explicitly states in the book that only barely a double-digit percentage of Federal Service is military in nature, and that the only way you could not qualify for Federal Service was if you were judged, by a psychiatrist, to be mentally incapable of comprehending the meaning of the Oath of Service. If you were a blind, deaf, mute, quadriplegic they would find SOMETHING for you to do, if you chose to take the Oath.

[@victoreremita3881]

@@tom9841 Actually some veterans even if they were career soldiers at war for over 20 years couldn't even vote, it was only after their service was completed that they were granted citizenship.

[@VeilingSun]

There is a successful example of the service guarantees political enfranchisement in today's world. Ironically, it is in the Chinese Communist Party. The CCP has millions of party members and almost all of them are drawn from civil and military service members who have excelled and judged to be loyal to the country more than their fellow countrymen. That or they are born into a powerful political family. Have you ever wondered what it takes to get political party membership in the CCP? It is a very opaque process much like the rest of the political processes but there does seem to be a pattern here of service to the party and the state being the first step. We can all see the pros and cons of their actions. The biggest I think that is grappled with the Starship Troopers book and the CCP itself is this: How does it treat people who are not politically enfranchised, or AKA have 0% say in the political machine?

[@thomasjamison2050]

It is primarily inspired by Sparta, which had slave based economy. The large numbers of slaves tended to make it more imperative that citizens were trained in the marital arts. Athens was somewhat looser, as commercial endeavors and foreign trade were held in much greater esteem. While it is true that when the two first went to war Athens held most all the cards, they ultimately blew through their own errors. Sparta did take Athens, but ultimately Sparta lost its slaves and the very racist system collapsed totally, whereas Athens, which accepted diversity as a strength, replaced its lost citizenry with immigrants and ultimately prospered again.

[@svaz2006]

"Remember, in this world violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived." Yeah, in this world, too, honestly. I forget who said it, but he he stated bluntly, "Laws without enforcement are just suggestions."

[@coffeyvideoproductions7767]

Mao agreed, "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."

[@davidgill3356]

It holds true. Libertarians often call their stance the non aggression principle. If a law is not worthy of using violence to enforce then it’s an unjust law.

[@JerodTrd]

A law that cannot be enforced usually makes a mockery of the law. It has been my experience that it's harder to take the law as a whole seriously when you are able to regularly break silly laws without consequence.

[@REDDAWNproject]

Its a big reason why people really don't like arbitrary laws. Because any law that is enforced requires violence.

[@davidgill3356]

@@REDDAWNproject It’s amazing how many people flat out deny that truth.

[@MichaelHarmer-l2e]

I served in the Australian Infantry in Vietnam 1969/70 . I also read the book and saw the movie. Thanks for reminding me.

[@Dead_Again1313]

I was in Iraq as a Marine Infantryman. Thanks for having our backs. We seriously appreciate our Australian brothers in arms.

[@Ma_Zhongying]

⁠​⁠@@Dead_Again1313The Iraqis probably appreciated it a little less.

[@arenasnefi]

I was perplexed about why an Argentinian can’t be blonde with blue eyes according to people in the US. Most Argentinians here in Mexico are blonde with blue eyes…

[@MrCipolenio]

Saludos desde Argentina hermano!

[@stevenscott2136]

We norteamericanos rarely see any of you that vary from the "black hair brown eyes" model. It also surprises us to meet a dark-haired Norwegian or a tall Asian.

[@ACSMEX]

@@stevenscott2136 I get it but I will also agree with the other guy: I have met several Argentinians and all were blue eyes blondes.

[@dorshreal0016]

To me it wasn't so much that Rico was played by a blonde dude but the fact that he and everbody spoke American English in what is obviously a Spanish speaking area. At the very least you'd expect them to have a argentian spanish accent when speaking English.

[@Doomwolf82002]

I think it's the result of the whole "brown people" fallacy pushed by Hollywood where it depicts all Latin Americans (and Middle-Easterners) having brown skin, dark hair, & brown eyes; because of this it causes many Americans to be completely unaware that there are Latin Americans of European descent.

[@funkervogt47]

As a teenager, I thought the Starship Troopers movie armor you are wearing was awesome. In my 20s, I thought it was dumb because if you look closely, you can see it flexing, meaning it's just rubber and an obvious movie prop. In my 30s, I now think, wait, maybe it is both flexible and very strong because it is made of a futuristic material, so it is actually awesome again.

[@JohnDoe-ef3wo]

I know what you mean exactly ASD

[@Aphotic_One]

The power armor in the book is so much better though

[@LostInForums]

12:30 I've always thought (in hindsight over the years) that this was foreshadowing that the Federation had underestimated the alien bugs and found itself fighting a war it was either losing or simply not able to win, and was forced to scrape the barrel more and more to find suitable replacements for casualties culminating in the next generation of Rico's Roughnecks at the end of the film being made up of Volksturm-esque teenagers. There's also a scene earlier on when the war is declared where Rico's drill instructor is begging for reassignment to the front and is turned down for being too old, yet at the end of the film he's seen amongst the soldiers on the front line having lead the capture team for the brain bug. In such a heavily militarised and militaristic culture, it's not hard to imagine that the Federation holds ex-military personnel as reservists into older age or even indefinitely. Many countries irl do this like in Singapore where the average male citizen is on reserve until they hit 40 for enlisted men and 50 for officers. After losing their 'prime-age' cannon fodder in the first battle they probably started issuing call-ups to supplement their regular forces.

[@grimnir8872]

Actually, it clearly points out There is zero conscription in the Federation; In fact Conscription would go against the core belief system of the Federation: Service of the willing. That's why his drill instructor actually enlists into active duty as a private; He chooses to fight.

[@LostInForums]

@@grimnir8872 I'm not talking about conscription at all, not in the context of the federation at least. It's likely they just lowered the entry standards considerably because they weren't able to fill ranks without resorting to conscription.

[@wtfwanth]

You are essentially correct, and that's addressed slightly more (or differently) in the book, all be it very quickly. In the scene where Johnny runs into his father at OTC (or I think it's at base near OTC), Johnny expresses surprise that his father: enlisted, was accepted, and had already been promoted to Corporal. It goes by very quickly, but the conversation does convey that recruitment standards have been loosened and that, due to losses, field promotions are flowing a lot faster than normal. While that does set up the scene later where Johnny's father is in Johnny's platoon, nothing happens with that and I don't think it was intended to be important. I believe the scene with Johnny and his father was to set it up as plausable that older veterans would be recalled, or allowed to re-enlist, into service because the millitary machine is turning faster than normal. In the film, that setup is accomplished with the scene in boot camp where Zim is told 'The only way you'll see combat is to bust yourself down to Private'. It's meant to seem absurd at the time, but then later to be a, 'ahh, so they got to the point where they allowed that.' thing for roughly the same effect.

[@RoundHouseDictator]

I thought they sent undertraind troopers in with an underprepaired command structure so games and theory could learn about how bugs fight without revealing their real tactics

[@dmingledorff]

@@RoundHouseDictator Who knows if the creators intended that, but it's entirely plausible in-universe.

[@unwarranted657]

The U.S.A was taking part in several wars during 1997. The afgan civil war, the nepalese civil war, the somali civil war, the iraqi-kurdish war/conflict all took place during that year.

[@malum9478]

"taking part in" and "actually dropping in" are two different things. plus dude was in character, he was being facetious.

[@robyee3325]

@@malum9478he sounds like an idiot easily brainwashed by war propaganda. The fact that he was obsessed with this movie and still enlisted kind of proves the point. The whole point of the movie was to show how stupid these people are and why you do not want veterans to run society

[@gunnarjames4248]

We stopped caring about the Afghan civil war when the Russians left in the 80s, and we stopped caring about the Iraqi-Kurdish war after the Iran-Iraq war; also in the 80s, and after Desert Storm, which took place in the early 90s, not ‘97..

[@michaelsnyder3871]

The US did not deploy military forces to Afghanistan until 2002. The US was NOT involved in the Nepalese civil war, that was the PRC's and India's problem to solve the US was out of Somalia by 1997 and there were no US military units involved in the Saddam Hussein's attempted suppression of the Kurds except to maintain a "no fly" zone and provide humanitarian aid to the Kurds.

[@MrChainrule]

I'm glad you mentioned The Forever War, it's such an interesting counterpoint to Starship Troopers.

[@davis.fourohfour]

And Heinlein congratulated Joe Haldeman for writing the finest military SF he had ever read. Joe had been worried, as it was written as a counter to SS by a Vietnam vet.

[@moonasha]

I hate that it's portrayed as a "response" to starship troopers. It's just a great book on its own. For some reason a lot of people thought it was pro war.

[@vladstefan5216]

@@moonasha People had a problem with the fact the book tried to come across as not pro war, but hypocritically described exactly militaristic ideology.

[@moonasha]

@@vladstefan5216 what exact part of this book was pro war? The fact that the humans in the book were at war? When at the end it turns out it was all just a misunderstanding and it was an entire waste of resources and life, and the two sides made peace? Yeah that's so pro war...

[@goldenhide]

@@moonasha It wasn't, the action was based on Haldeman's personal experiences in Vietnam and he's gone on at length in interviews stating such. The entire theme however was the earlier veterans of this war coming back to a radically changed Earth, which was what many US 'Nam vets experienced returning home or in their post-service lives. It's a separate, excellent story in it's own. O can see where people draw the differences between the the works, but it really wasn't Haldeman's intentions.

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

After 2005, I like to believe that Carl had a relative called Leeroy whose tactical doctrine was employed during the invasion of Klendathu.

[@tombkings6279]

LEROY JENKINS

[@donald12998]

"Ask the ocean about your right to life, see what good it does when you're drowning." The book made me really think about a lot of things.

[@kendallmoore4826]

Especially the nature of war and its relationship to society.

[@bboyphil1313]

Almost drowned during my Artillery Training, In 2006!

[@rc59191]

​@@bboyphil1313 lol what was a 13B doing in the water were you trying to get your gun across a river?

[@bboyphil1313]

I was convinced by another student to swim to an island that was like 500M away.. I didn't know he had life guard training but thank god he did because, on the way back, I ran out of energy and needed his help

[@rc59191]

@@bboyphil1313 lol makes me thankful I was an Airman 😅 if it wasn't for Crohn's disease I was gonna go to the Kansas National Guard after my time as an Airman and enlist as a 13B.

[@absolutelypositivelyme]

I love that the story appears to be motivated by the idea that not hitting your kids = downfall of society.

[@J.Hawker]

I mean... Have you looked around you, lately? I don't agree with Heinlein on a lot of points, and I want to be clear, I'm memeing, but. Makes you wonder if he had a point.

[@poyobotyahoo7494]

He probably had, in moderation. Does spanking is essential to a proper and polite society? Hell no! Does some level of restriction and strictness by parents to their children is important? Yeah, I think so.

[@Albinospenguin]

It totally is, the history teacher in the book drop a sentence on how weak democraciies of the 20th century crumbled under undisciplined kids wieldings chains.

[@PauaP]

Aren’t people in our leadership basically old men and women? A bit weird of the correlation between hitting children = downfall of society…

[@malum9478]

@@J.Hawker no it doesn't. in fact tf are you talking about? kids are more peaceful now than they have been in the last fifty or so years. if anything, the people who need hitting are old people.

[@Zom13y]

“It’s an antifa movie, but everyone already kinda knew that.” Nervously looks at satire’s dead corpse lying in the corner.

[@SusCalvin]

Heinlein is a man going through a lot of phases. It takes a bit of work to sort out where he was when he wrote one book or the other. I think he's in some kind of libertarian phase at this moment.

[@taylorleeforcongress8470]

He's a Militarist God.

[@vagabondwastrel2361]

@zomby calling sst an antifa movie only shows this channel's bias alligns with the director. There is a massive difference between antifa and being against fascism.

[@mike8595]

Who knew the film was about assaulting and murdering innocent people and setting building on fire. I need to re-watch that film! In all seriousness though, I'm always a big fan of the intellectually lazy. I love it when an individual's primary argument in support of a thing is just the name of said thing. Brilliant.

[@SusCalvin]

@@mike8595 AFA in Europe doesn't have a huge army of folks. None of the fringe groups do. You can compensate for that with better organisation. Heinlein himself at this point is in a sort of libertarian streak. He imagines that the federal military won't ever use its power for anything but give people all the individual freedoms he likes.

[@flamingwolf8753]

"If violence doesn't solve the problem, you didnt use enough violence." -someone somewhere

[@wiretamer5710]

When did leveling a city or three, EVER stop a nation growing bigger than ever, within a generation?

[@flamingwolf8753]

@@wiretamer5710 what???

[@tavianbroadhead78]

@@flamingwolf8753 Nah hes right though. It's pretty much universal that post-major crisis are following by huge spurs of births or growth, if such crisis doesn't completely annihilate such afflicted.

[@flamingwolf8753]

@@tavianbroadhead78 I was just writing a funny quote that I heard some place. I wasn't being serious so all this talk is quite frankly confusing the heck out of me lol

[@tavianbroadhead78]

@@flamingwolf8753 oh fair enough.

[@Hakaanu]

I was 16 when the movie came out, in fact it was the first movie I was ever carded at. Of course, at the time me and my friends just thought it was a fun dumb sci-fi movie with boobies. I don’t think I saw it again until the early 2000s, and saw it in a whole new light. By then I was an EMT (after 9/11 I wanted to “serve” in a way consistent with my religious beliefs) and the movie hit me like a gut punch. I remember the coverage on cable news leading up to the invasion of Iraq and thinking “wait a minute, this is Starship Troopers.”

[@viktoriaalden3452]

Have you ever had that phase where you thought that everyone having the same philosophy as yourself would improve things so greatly for everyone? It feels like this book is the result of Heinlein having a phase like that...

[@thevenator3955]

I appreciate the fact that you wore that armor for so long for maximum immersion (I doubt it was very comfortable lol)

[@TiMonsor]

he served for 7 fucking years in Iraq. But you are impressed that he can cosplay for 6-12 hours it took to film this. Mind is a strange thing.

[@Deveron4]

@@TiMonsor Sounds like you've got an anger problem. Would you like to know more?

[@goldenhide]

It's not that bad. IIRC the film armor is a lit stiff rubber. Many of them still float around and pop up in other shows like an episode of Firefly. A lot of people use thick EVA foam to make their own.

[@TiMonsor]

@@Deveron4 why would u even assume I'm angry?

[@NovaDragon97]

@@TiMonsor Your comment was unnecessarily aggressive and condescending.

[@johngialousis3041]

It’s amazing how many times the football references escape your analysis. Team sports are an effective way to predispose young men to a military style social interaction. The parallels between team sports and managing military units are endless. Movie also points toward the mechanical and exhaustive ways in which an authoritarian military state would control certain rights. The Spartans basically employed Eugenics in creating their warrior state.

[@sg0310]

American football came about after the civil war as a sort of fill in for war. I believe the exact words used to describe what they were looking for was "The moral equivalent to war" . Football is an especially good sport for this where every single person has their own job and at least the majority of the team has to do that job well in order for the team to succeed.

[@RogeriusRex]

Team school sports in America were put in place to teach immigrants to obey, to work together. The sports references in the movie were to show how they taught subordination, and achievement through subordination.

[@oblivionfan345Tony]

Spartan Warrior state wasn't real, 300 is not historical lol

[@eerieskeleton]

@@oblivionfan345Tony The Spartans did have a warrior state. I do not know what to tell other than that because it is the best logical conclusion of their society from surviving sources. The dude never referenced 300. You are insulting a statement that wasn't said.

[@andrewhinson4323]

literally ANY team sport is analogous to literally EVERY team endeavor, the military being but one of those.

[@apersonlikeanyother6895]

Today I learned that some people didn’t realise the movie was satire.

[@normaaliihminen722]

If movie was satire then it was shown in one the worst way possible.

[@Ensgnblack]

Apparently putting Doogie Howser in SS cosplay wasn’t enough to hint he was a fascist.

[@stevenscott2136]

Verhoven kind of hated Americans anyway -- he had thrown the Robocop script in the trash because it was "everything I hated about America", and his wife had to fish it out and talk him into doing it as satire. Which probably came out as "you can mock them, and the fools won't even know it! Plus, I need another hundred pairs of shoes." His "satire" in ST was probably even closer to outright mean-spirited mockery.

[@thelordofcringe]

@@stevenscott2136 he was your typical salty continentalist. Pissed that his precious continental philosophy was the worst the world had ever seen and killed more people than anything else, but too self assured to ever consider that every attempt to build on Hobbesian ideas was always going to lead to tyranny.

[@enntower421]

Leftists are so untethered from reality that they don't realize what they hate is actually the core drive of humanity itself so any satire they attempt just becomes their only true ability to create art. This is why modern Hollywood creates terribly boring and flat protagonists that no one likes and the only time you are ever really compelled by a character is by the occasional antagonist when the writer and director accidentally strike too close to home.

[@Arturius_Rex_8]

I heard/read somewhere that Heinlein's works were mostly written as vehicles for technology analysis. Like, Starship Troopers was written for discussion on the power suits.

[@Ryukuro]

I appreciate the acknowledgement of Forever War. It's an excellent book that's underappreciated.

[@FEARbraveheart]

Considering how successful dune was, that final melee could be a fun watch

[@neeneko]

Another good book (series) that could be considered a response : Bill the Galactic Hero

[@alexwright4930]

Great book. Pretty hard sci fi too.

[@LogicalNiko]

Verhoven wanted a theme to make his commentary, he didn’t care much about the original book’s plot or meaning. Verhoven extremely likes exaggeration to the point of extreme as a method of highlighting questions in social issues. His biggest theme in Total Recall, Starship Troopers, and Robocop) is that we have become a culture of violence as entertainment to sell advertising; and so he wanted to amplify this in his movies by making both sex, violence and advertising pushed to absurd levels (disfigure people with so much blood and gore that it’s questioning if we even connect it to reality of what we’re watching anymore). It’s also why he is drawn to telling these stories where society is this skewed world of corporations, big government, ganglands, people out of place with their world. His whole point is that if he shows the audience a world where these things are treated as normal, that they would notice that they just cheered for “Americanized fascists, go into a manufactured war, and create manufactured hero’s, all for the sake of advertising and news propaganda” and then think about what they see in real politics and question those motives.

[@formerctgovernordannelmall1452]

I’d buy that for a dollar!

[@johnfisher9692]

Well put This movie is NOTHING! like the book

[@kamacazi8]

I'm glad the book and even the movie are both art AKA subjective :)

[@SmileyEmoji42]

Exageration to extreme is, IMHO, the basis of most good Sci-Fi.

[@Youchubeswindon]

The thing that concerns me, is that (predominantly the US from what I see) people who don't understand the parody applaud the exaggerations.

[@tjep2670]

I know this is a year late, but I always thought Rasczak survived because he went on vacation, or simply lived far enough away to survive. They do have fancy medical tech after all, since they tissue print Ricos thigh back together.

[@izoi24]

It makes total sense, he’s a teacher and his class just graduated, so it’s likely that he would be on summer vacation when the bug strike happened.

[@Muck006]

It was "after graduation", so he probably took a holiday between semesters.

[@Michael-sb8jf]

Or being a teacher of moral philosophy he is called back to a centralized HQ or something

[@glitchxero4687]

I always figured Rasczak either rejoins the military after Rico's class graduates, or (and this is my head canon) is reactivated because the Federation is already planning to invade Klendathu, and wants any experienced people who are still at least mostly whole of body to lead the green soldiers currently being/about to be trained and sent there. The attack on Buenos Aires might have advanced the timetable a bit, but in a society like that, surely they were already in the planning phases of directly assaulting the bug homeworld. In a world where only ex-military people hold any political power, the government probably doesn't sit around waiting for a major attack on themselves to decide to do something about hostile aliens. That's just bad strategy.

[@adambanas6365]

It's funny I never really thought about how Rasczak would return after Buenos Ares was destroyed but yeah I guess it's a plot hole, and I like your theory that he just went on vacation after graduation. I was trying to picture a scene where they explain this plot hole away, with some line of dialog stating something to effect that he was out of town. Then I realized if it even existed it probably got cut and the movie is no worse for it. Just gives fans something to talk about lol. (Patrick H. Willems has an entire video essay about how plot holes don't matter) 🤣

[@DrLongWang]

The recent release of helldivers has also brought this to the forefront. Fascists cannot recognize satire of their ideology because if they had enough critical thinking to do so they would not be fascist. And so they view criticism as endorsement unless it is overt.

[@Spagghet]

I love Verhovens entire message backfired on 99% of the audience and made the cult following super patriotic to the world he was criticizing. The mobile infantry made me the man I am today.

[@someonerandom8552]

That’s both hilarious and depressing to me. Maybe because I’ve encountered a lot of people praising the things often explicitly criticised (both subtly and overtly) in various texts/stories/movies. It’s like, the r/whoosh meme but seeing it in real time. Like I’m all for varying interpretations but sometimes I have to wonder if some folks even paid attention to the story/movie in question.

[@huneylove5]

Well you took good from obvious parody which isn't a bad thing. But at the same time you have people who are only patriotic when it suits them and you get things like January 6.

[@doodash]

@Ronald Nygma its a quote from the movie

[@TamaCinema69]

the ironic point made by the film ended up being such a good parody of american militarism that it was accepted with open arms as genuine by most audiences. Verhoven failed his task successfully.

[@Wimpymind]

@@TamaCinema69 he also famously never read the book, and was proud of it. It shows.

[@uss_04]

I still can’t get over how the helmet prop was used in Power Rangers: Lost Galaxy

[@kazuhirala]

If I’m not wrong it was also used in another sci fi tv show in the 90s early 2000s. I believe this was because the wardrobe dept had many laying around and allowed productions to use it and not bother with the cost of making original suits. Films can actually save cost by doing this but don’t for this exact reason, re-using equipment from another film or show and audiences picks up on it.

[@MonkeyDefenceForce]

Also in a planet of the apes movie.

[@centercannothold]

@@MonkeyDefenceForce “Come one you apes, do you want to live forever ? “ bring a different meaning now

[@lucascoval828]

@@kazuhirala Firefly.

[@charlestownsend9280]

It also shows up in firefly and other shows and films.

[@rachel_sj]

“Starship Troopers: An Alien War Movie with Boobs” My almost-forty-year-old fiancé concurs with your summation of that fine entry to cinema my Good Sir

[@____dwaawdwadawd1342]

Reddit

[@pauljackson3491]

You have been engaged for forty years! You probably mean she is about 40 and you are engaged but making fun of English grammar is better.

[@dsimpson530]

I was also in middle school when it came out in theaters. I specifically remember the movie Dark City was in the trailers ahead of the movie. I also remember Blur's "Song 2" was used in the TV ads for the movie. Still one of my personal favorites.

[@neurotransmissions]

I just watched an hour long video about a movie I’ve seen once...and loved it. Bravo!

[@waynejohnson1786]

I just watched an hour long video about a movie I’ve never seen

[@darunealbane]

The movie sucked balls compared to the book .. the movie director never read the book and said he assumed nasi in space

[@than217]

I just watched an hour long video about a movie I've seen probably 30 times the year it came out before buying all the toys. (Luckily I didn't become a fascist supporting military psycho after 9/11 because of it. lol)

[@julesmasseffectmusic]

How can you watch it only once? DOOGIE HOWSER IN AN SS UNIFORM AND CUTE RED HEAD!

[@dragonmaster613]

Wait till you see Wisecrack's or Renegade Cut's.

[@zombielizard218]

Technically speaking, the Zerg and Terran Marines from Starcraft are based on the Tyranids and Space Marines from Warhammer 40K, the Sci-Fi Version of Warhammer, the thing Warcraft was based on which Starcraft emerged from With Warhammer 40K in turn taking inspiration from Starship Troopers

[@CalebRogers808]

Ah yes, the classic telephone game of inspiration

[@FlipORican00]

One thing you forgot to mention that in the US military service is actually for an 8 year obligation. Meaning that while you may enlist for 4 years, that is for active duty service. The remaining years is inactive service or reserves, for which the US military can use to recall you back to service, or as you mention, use it to stop-loss a person, extending their current active duty service. As far as incentive to enlist, for the US military it became the GI Bill, but originally the GI Bill wasn't used as an enlistment tool as it was originally enacted for returning service men following the end of WWII. The original act ended in the mid-50's, but new programs created to assist US military veterans. I always felt Starship Troopers was a satire to Fascism, but after serving in the Army and later re-watching the film and later reading the book, I felt it was in an extreme measure pushing military service is the only way to prove a person's patriotisms and through serve one values putting the best interest of the society as a whole over oneself. Watching your video has peaked my interest to re-read the book and read "The Forever War."

[@gwfranklin1]

Forever war is decent, i also recommend Hammer's Slammers and Old Man's War if you enjoy military sci-fi

[@able34bravo37]

I mean, the book made it pretty clear that not all federal service was military service. The only way you could be disqualified from service was if you were deemed incapable of comprehending the oath. I believe the book gave the example of a paraplegic who was deaf and blind but wanted to complete a term of service. They would be forced to find something for that person to do which would be of sufficient difficulty as to be worthy of what service bestowed.

[@lunaticbz3594]

I served with the Pennsylvania national guard. Just before our deployment we had to give a couple of our soldiers to HQ troop, meaning now we were short. One of the ways they filled the gap was with the backdoor draft. So our unit was now entirely from PA except one soldier from Alabama. Always felt bad for him talk about being the odd guy out. We also got one from Idaho, but we don't count him. I haven't forgiven the state of Idaho yet. Also got some kid from JROTC?? Still confused as to how the heck that happened. Luckily despite having almost no training he was highly motivated, and learned fast.

[@PadraigTomas]

@@able34bravo37 This is a point that is missed to often.

[@charlesmurphy919]

6 Years not 8,

[@commanderpuffy1014]

One of the things I love about the Starship troopers film is just how far away klendathu is from earth is the other side of the god damn galaxy how were the bugs supposed to accurately launch a meteorite that far and that fast. It heavily implies that the meteorites are either freak accidents dressed up by the media or that they were sent by the government themselves to justify war spending and invading klenadthu

[@ElderRaceofMan]

It's just Hollywood crap science. The movie left out the major gimmick of the book, the power armor, and simplified the bugs into non-tech animals. In the book the Bugs definitely attacked Earth, but the book Bugs are super intelligent as a race due to the brain caste. They build starships and have beam weapons.

[@commanderpuffy1014]

@@ElderRaceofMan The book was also a pro fascist circlejerk and the intentions and themes of the movie are far superior to the book.

[@emitindustries8304]

This guy has a Federation flag, and a Bug model, uniform, armor! Dang! That's a fan. He has done the most comprehensive review of the book and movies. I was a kid when I read the book in the mid 60s. I didn't get the politics. Later, the 1st movie made it clear. And "Marauders" made the religious aspect obvious. So this guy gets it. A great political science lesson.

[@Tazmazy]

The movie is hardly related to the book.

[@Gunboatjingoist]

The movie has nothing to do with the book. The book is wonderful. The movie is trash.

[@TheMaxORyan]

@@Gunboatjingoist Lmao cope harder

[@WickedPrince3D]

Yeah I'm almost 60 and I read the story as a late teen. The politics didn't mean anything because at that point I didn't really understand politics period. Conflict on the other hand I understood. Lived with it every day of my childhood.

[@_spooT]

"tho it is extremely weird that they would send a unit straight out of basic training together with a new leader, in the first wave" ahh yess exactly like D-day

[@zimriel]

I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not, but - Brit ancestry here - those motherfuckers did that to us in the FIRST world war

[@alganhar1]

@@zimriel I assume you are referring to the first day of the Somme. Unfortunately what most people forget about the Battle of the Somme are two rather important facts. First, is it lasted 4 and a half months and the first day was the only time during the battle tactics like that were used. There were actually reasons as well which I will not bother going into. Second, is that the Somme was forced upon the British by events elsewhere, specifically Verdun. If you want to understand why the British had to fight the Somme, when Haig wanted to fight in Flanders in 1917 after training up his army and getting them experience in the line, you have to understand Verdun. The two battles are intrinsically linked and the Somme as we know it would never have happened without Verdun. Fact is the idea that the British Army was devoid of tactics during WWI is, unfortunately for most people, a myth. You do not go from the Army of 1914 to the Army of 1918, which was using full combined arms warfare coordinating infantry, artillery, armour and airpower at a flick of a switch. Armoured warfare did not EXIST before WWI, Air warfare was in its absolute infancy. That takes training, experimentation, and learning. You may want to think about that when you talk about 'those motherfuckers', who I am assuming you mean us Brits.... You may be of British Ancestry, but that does NOT make you British.

[@jonathont5570]

hmm like every war...lol, they ALWAYS send in the least experience as first line in major conflicts as cannon fodder.

[@zimriel]

@@alganhar1 tl;dr - you have to go back.

[@tsdobbi]

That didn't happen on D-Day either.

[@charlesdaugherty321]

Startrek fans want to live in Startrek. Starwars fans want to live in Starwars. 40k fans laugh at you when you ask. Starship troopers fans would like to know more.

[@TKUltra971]

40k fans... look to your left, look to your right, look behind, look ahead, look up or even look down. hell, look inside yourself. The result is the same. You're f*ked.