If you're a One Trick you won't wanna hear this...

Broken by Concept Podcast with Timestamp: • Is Season 13 Balanced?...
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[@awgiedawgie]

it’s crazy how it makes so much sense that some people want their 1 trick champion to get nerfed so it doesn’t get taken or banned that often

[@droid5785]

Me when asol was reworked and I picked him up for the first time since like 2017. I'm like PLEASE ADJUST HIM SO THE BRONZIES STOP BANNING IT IN NORMS TY RIOT

[@sifutophmasterofeyerolling2513]

@@droid5785 ?

[@gobbergobberer4776]

Yeah at the end of the day we just wanna play the damn game, it is not fun to have your favorite champ permabanned every queue, having to dodge or constantly falling back to other champions

[@abdallahhakeem5185]

Actually they're saying the exact opposite. People are saying that the winrate of the champion is inflated, i.e it would actually be lower if it weren't for the one-tricks playing the champions, i.e "Rito pls buff my stupid weak champion, they only good wr because we OTPs so good with them"

[@quieness]

When i was ranking i HATED when Katarina got buffs because then she'd be perma banned and i couldnt play. When a champ is "ok" or slightly below average is the best time for us One tricks of any kind

[@ExplosiveTurtle924]

Except when there is only one person playing the champ in challenger

[@Gale42]

yeah, if you only look at challenger ivern players or something, obviously the winrate will be single handedly decided by 5 guys in the world who do it or something around that number

[@cripplingdepression3061]

Old Asol is a prime example for that

[@mohamedrishwan8819]

the singed on tricks

[@cripplingdepression3061]

@@mohamedrishwan8819 remind me of that one time when my team Rammus and the enemies Sign started to proxy each other minion waves We lost that game but it was hilarious a.f

[@ozymandias8523]

Skarner mains 😢

[@pblx1321]

fully agree with ur opinion, when my otp gets buffed it usually is just pick or ban then i cant have fun playing anymore

[@Ryxzer443]

just learn other champ lol dont be a moron

[@adriano_cruciani]

perfecyly summarized what happened when kha’zix got that last buff some patches ago

[@natsuo1891]

let me guess your otp, it's either varus, cassio, hecarim or aatrox

[@pblx1321]

@@natsuo1891 heca :( nice one

[@lecwizard]

Main Quinn like me, it has 0,5% pick normally and 1% when is overbuffed, i havent played single game with different champ this season

[@_melanyx]

That Riven clip was the most stressing thing, I actually stopped paying attention to what you were saying halfway through

[@chaotixthefox]

How was it stressing watching a 600HP shield come up every 4 seconds

[@billthegreek]

​@@chaotixthefoxthat lasts for 1.5 seconds..

[@Catgirl7733]

@@chaotixthefox lol mad

[@creaketh]

@@chaotixthefox mad mad mad

[@sahpphireh]

me too lmao

[@greatiusiterfector4519]

It is not a myth that community made up it was something riot balance team themselves used as an excuse to defend Riven who was at like 55% wr at the time.

[@Jeehawgamer123]

I dont think so unless you mean many years into the past. I first heard about one tricks not affecting winrate from riot when they nerfed asol almost 3 years ago.

[@johannesmattsson9900]

@@Jeehawgamer123 Riot did say it many years ago and have been trying to backpeddle ever since.

[@Jeehawgamer123]

@@johannesmattsson9900 i dont think this is true. I feel like they have been fairly consistant on this when it comes to azir, asol and riven nerfs explaination.

[@warcriminalyes]

Problem is they left Riven at 54% winrate for a whole season, and Riven was picked almost every game. And since facerolling with her was giving good results without the need to do her animation cancels, it was in need of a nerf. I abused the shit out of it during the last days of Twisted Treelines, was funny.

[@jenokrivanszki7762]

riot loves to say stpid sht1 like this especialy their paycheck thief balance team, do you believe there is no losers que? and do you believe in the -10 ad placebo nerfs?

[@mohamedbrankiregani8189]

azzapp can be an exception , that guy was the only one playing velkoz support in challenger , and the champion winrate overall was the same as his velkoz winrate during this season

[@dazeen9591]

Well no one talks about champion win rates in challenger. Cuz plenty of times there have been champs in challenger with 70%+ winrate

[@Gale42]

challenger the 0.01% of the playerbase. I've seem some people argue this, do any of you understand math at all?

[@2BsYummySoles]

You know the average wr in challenger is 60+ because in order to achieve challenger on most accs without inflated mmr you need at least 60%. And also his math is taken into consideration a large sample size

[@IDirtyMangoI]

Diamond plus is where the math skew actually has an major effect. The sheer volume of games per high elo player allows for their account to balance out over a magnitude of low elo accounts.

[@vastroy6307]

@@2BsYummySolesno you don’t you can have 50 percent wr and be challenger

[@ExecutionerThel]

A great topic of discussion imo winrates are not good statistics to base power on similar to post game damage numbers. Context is really helpful for determining these factors not necessarily just the results. Podcast was great though I love that Phroxon has been on many content creators media to show some of the development side of Riot that we usually don’t hear about

[@jaspervermeer659]

Most prominent is people saying "if it's op why does it have a 47% win rate lol" when the champion is hard to play

[@mavarlp]

​@@jaspervermeer659the only champion that is considered op is ksante with that winrate and thats because he is just that good in pro with teamwork.And also because he can steal the adc

[@jaspervermeer659]

@@mavarlp I mean in general not right now. Stuff like aphelios, gangplank etc.

[@zezanje1]

@@jaspervermeer659 ye and those hard champs are often played by otps only so not only is it hard to play, but its picked in games where its not optimal so that decreases the wr as well

[@Hclody95]

you can tell when champs like pantheon, riven, rengar, kayn, hecarim (and many others) are inflated when you see all the onetricks of that champ are all high challenger, while previous seasons were master at best. the best example right now is if you see jax, there are so many jax players in challenger, but you will see that if they eventually balance the champ we would have 1 or 2 jax mains in chall. or for example dantes which is stuck masters since hecarim nerfs, spear shot always been masters now he is perma challenger with panth and list goes on

[@nsreturn1365]

panth is prob the most inflated champ this season, if your goal is plat for skin, just play panth till you reach it, like half of the couches or reddit is saying that. not dodable point and click oneshots.- in game since 9+ months not nerfed or touched. prove that riot does not follow the shit they say in this vid. also support is broken this season since better bot wins. when filled jgl juts go noct , most people dont respect him whatever. if you go vs rengar,yone/yasuo,( any lethal tempo champ) play rammus and laugh at them. you ein the gane if you dont mess up right there

[@Zalgo-hr6qc]

@@nsreturn1365 It's bizarre, because he's ironically WORSE this season compared to the past two, first being his aegis being able to block tower shots for simple dives, and second his damage was insane the season prior. So are people just on the short bus when it comes to realizing that a point and click cc + execute is insanely good?

[@johnathan5906]

Spear shot has been challenger multiple times before the recent pantheon buffs. You're just hating on the champ because it's strong now. The dude has been one tricking it for years even when the champ was shit. God forbid it's actually good now.

[@38quagmire38]

ppl like dantes climbed to chall because they stopped smashing their head against the wall for tons of games in masters making the same mistakes, slowed down, and learned the game from someone better than them. that's what got their elo, not their champ. he was even playing other meta champs when hec got nerfed and still couldn't climb lol

[@islixxn]

@@Zalgo-hr6qc no one wants to play extremely boring mana issue champion

[@realiso]

The Metric used to determine “OTP” was champion mastery of greater than 100k/150k That’s pretty straightforward to do if you just have played the champ on and off for a few seasons, so I dont think Riot Phroxons metric to measure who is an OTP was accurate here. In reality this finding still needs more analysis.

[@izee4814]

i prefer my otp being dogshit as it is so its never picked / banned :)

[@vixnlyn]

same, noone ever bans gwen and its great :D

[@TURK69KURD]

True and Im getting pissed when I see a random picking my champ and having ebay mechanics on it

[@izee4814]

ego :o

[@TURK69KURD]

@@izee4814 but its a mechanical champ and iam in pig elo (d1-low master) so its fine i think i dont have issues

[@Lobotom1zed]

Trusting a riot employee with anything about gameplay is like me giving money to a drug addict and expecting him not to buy drugs

[@wladynoszhighlights5989]

This may be true to popular champions who are being first timed and inted on regularly, but not to very niche champs that are rarely ever played outside of OTPs or mains

[@GlacialScion]

The entire point is that what you just said isn't true. There are so many people playing that even the niche champions get balanced out.

[@iero1234]

I want people to look at me in the eyes and say that clip was balanced without laughing

[@dazeen9591]

Riven is not balanced whatsoever

[@dazeen9591]

Also Ravenous Hydra is a super broken item and should not exist in its current state.

[@nsreturn1365]

@@dazeen9591 that what he means, its balanced cause people suck at it, doesn't change the fact fiora wins lane in loading screen

[@dazeen9591]

@@nsreturn1365 well Fiora has some hard matchups like Renekton cuz you can't react to his stun but yeah. I think Renekton also beats Riven as well.

[@iero1234]

@@dazeen9591 yeah, i dont play renekton, and i dont think counter picking is a solution to a problem

[@pogizsoli6672]

This was the case for rengar until recent buffs to crit items. He was already a strong champ and then he became broken. As a rengo main myself, I hate to play ranked and normals when my champ is banned 20% of the time. Above diamond I imagine it's higher. When the champ was around 48% winrate ~2 years ago nobody complained, because the one tricks could easily get to high elo with it and it wasn't banned quite as often. You could see it in the graphs - as you go up in ranks the champ had more and more winrate. I usually play every 6 months taking long breaks in-between, and when I see that rengar is low winrate, I'm happy while thinking that everything is at it's place (where it should be)

[@chuckhaller3842]

Absolutely fantastic podcast btw, every league nerd should be a listener.

[@oxey_]

would do the tinfoil hat types that pop up on this channel whenever losersqueue or mmr is mentioned a lot of good I think 😭😭😭

[@spaghetimilk561]

Fuck no, no one should listen to a bunch of hacks

[@SamBsound]

Phreak has also commented on this. Basically, high winrate is usually correlated with lower skill ceiling. The champion is easier to learn but the winrate growth when mastered is lower. There are exceptions but it's a strong trend, and exceptions tend to get nerfed. For example, Corki, Kennen, Caitlyn, Ksante, and Aphelios are all under 50% winrate, but also have some of the highest winrate growth when mastered.

[@screamtheguy6425]

Me as a Yasuo main before Yone showed up. I could never get proficient with Yasuo that quickly because of the silver and bronze players banning him

[@YL_SC]

Idk man, i wouldn't rely on what the 200+ (now 300+) years of experience people say on balancing.

[@1bizkit]

Brainless balance team….

[@Darkmiino]

lmfaoooo true

[@Salmagros]

I remember what happened with Aatrox. After the endurance rework many Aatrox main can't even play him because it's picked or Banned most of the time.

[@Hclody95]

pre-nerf aatrox mains were all challenger, now where are all those aatrox mains?

[@skdjakhuhsadk2863]

@@Hclody95 stuck deep and hard in mid diamond

[@lkar4ik]

​@@skdjakhuhsadk2863only Nyaail is still running

[@Strawberry_Soda.]

Objectively speaking this makes 0 sense. This would imply all champions have the exact same otp ratio, which, as we all know, is entirely false. Some champions just have more otps than others, which objectivly means their win rate is boosted in comparison. Also, keep in mind Riot's Balance Team themselfes HAVE made balance decisions in recent past using the very argument they try to dispute here, like when Phreak recently said Yasuo was being balanced bellow average because the ""average yasuo main has 100k mastery"", or when they said Riven at 55% win rate wasnt problematic because she had a lot of otps. The reason Phroxzon came up with such half assed argument is to premptivly evade future criticism when they decide to nerf a 0,2% pick rate champion again, which im gessing is in the works

[@SiMeGamer]

It depends how you you decide to interpret and cut the data. Katarina is an exception because she is one of if not the OTP champion and she is also quite popular. Katarina is the most mastered champion in League of Legends. Close picks to that are Zyra, Shaco and Yorick (I am a Zyra OTP myself). Because Katarina is so hard to play and because she is so popular, even she barely changes the statistical needle if you track literally everyone who plays her. The moment you track 10+ games on a champ per account or do a 20+ in current season or something, you'll get completely different data points. So it's not that Riot isn't aware, it's that the general winrate usually balances itself by hundreds of millions of players who just try a champ and failing miserably. Champion popularity affects a lot of decision making on the Riot side because you have a lot more data which makes analysis more reliable. And if the data comes from OTPs, this makes it a little biased towards them when decisions are made. I remember Aurelion Sol got a -5 Movement Speed nerf and people were losing their fking minds because he was both unpopular and with a terrible winrate, not realizing this nerf was at OTPs who were sitting at like 58% winrate and basically boosting themselves thanks to their abuse of his roams. Riot knows. It's just that the GENERAL winrate is barely affected.

[@vycronvandarkin7639]

It makes sense cuz the only exception is the one hero with the highest otp rate

[@Strawberry_Soda.]

@@vycronvandarkin7639 Katarina is NOT the champion with the highest otp ratio, not even close... so it makes 0 sense. What, did you thought Kat had the highest otp ratio just because she is hard to play and has a unique gameplay style? well, wait until you meet Singed... and multiple others... Also, what phroxzon is implying here is that all other 162 champions besides Kat all have the exact same "otp to casual" ratio, which is almost impossible.

[@vycronvandarkin7639]

@@Strawberry_Soda. Actually riot said before that even more so than asol, katarina is by far the most mained champion and the second place is not even close. That and her high skill floor (she has the steepest winrate climb curve of all champions for the first 100 games) makes the pictire clear why she is the special case here

[@Strawberry_Soda.]

@@vycronvandarkin7639 So theres a lot to unpack there, but ill try to keep it simple. Riot said that she was the most mained champion, which means she is the champion with more people maining her. This comes at no surprise since Kat has an amazing 8% pick rate, whereas most other "otp champs" sit at around 2% and bellow like Singed, Taric or old A Sol. This is a combination of factors, ranging from Kata being very powerful, very blind pickable, and generally not extremely hard to play (not that she is super easy, but she is easier to master than most otp champs). Basically she has more otps than other champs because she is very popular, so naturally her otp ratio isnt as high. And what this means is that, eventhough Kata has more total otp players on her than, say, Singed, Singed's total palyer base is probably comprised mostly of otps, while Kata gets a lot of "casuals" on her, hence the astonishing 8% pick rate. All of this means that, if there is any win rate inflation on Kata because of otps, then sure as hell there is otp inflation on other champs. There are no "special ones". Then again, phreak himself has stated in the past yasuos balance had to be tonned down due to too many otps, now phroxzon acting like that never happened and otps dont make a diffrence...

[@jessyiscute7860]

actually if you look for skarner winrate by games played you can see skarner is inflated by onetricks by over 5-7 percent

[@doke1x]

Riven is probably the most Over Charged champion in league, let me explain: - Build is basically CDR city - 4 dashes - 1 stunt / 1 knock-up - shield with a dash - passive adds insane dmg to your next auto - Ultimate gives you AD + more range in Q and W. Also throws a 700 units wide cone that deals insane dmg - the best skin is the one with the hoodie (Renegade I think is called)

[@deividymario2408]

Ok, for the popular champions, He does have a point, but what about the champions you see in 1 of 50 matches, and are ridiculously strong in either Low or High Elo? (expecially High Elo, where you have a smaller playerbase). The fact that OTPs boost the WR of the champion is a fact, nobody can deny it.

[@mitrast2793]

It does make sense that the winrate is inflated if you only look at diamond + database given that the player count is significantly smaller

[@HyeonsikLi]

Thats never been a question. Maybe with champs which have a low playrate. Else the otps will never have enough games to change the statistics significantly on high play rate champs. Which is more disturbing is the fact that some champs may have a very high pickrate while having a very high winrate.

[@ludendorf1899]

Same, when Youmuu's and the other AD items got buffed suddenly everybody started banning/instalocking Rengar, thus making me unable to play my champion that I mained for 10 years now... fml

[@jinxgobrr]

Happened to me at the start of this season, Jinx perma pick/ban and im like, guess Im playing Kai'sa(my second one). Now Kai'sa is perma pick/ban

[@Shaggy87781]

Im gonna go on a whim here and just say I dont believe that for a second from riot. Seriously, how many times do you see 1 trick champions constantly being played? Additionally, they mentioned 1 trick players inflating wr being cancelled out by people first timing but if someone is first timing and does poorly they obviously are going to play the champ less and have a subsequently less effect on the winrate than someone dropping hundreds of games on a champ each season. Also they didnt touch on elo, for example high elo depending on the champ and role the winrates certainly can be inflated by 1 tricks. Remember tyler1 effecting the urgot top winrate during his top challenge? How about off meta picks where the playrate is lower? I just simply dont believe it and this is coming from someone who isnt even a 1 trick.

[@barnabasfarakas7376]

Not much people first timing champs like Shen. And when they do, they either leave it for forever or become a main

[@DemonEyeHelix]

I'd argue, depending on the ranks, that One Tricks are deflating their champions' winrates. You ever seen how many one trick Shacos there are who have 115165165198 ranked games played on their main, yet they are hardstuck bronze? There's a lot of them.

[@umutace4461]

idk lolalytics stats would say otherwise in most cases, the otp filter always boasts a much higher winrate.

[@faloughasch9239]

Talon mains have known this for years. If our champion is above 50% WR it's because he's broken and hasn't been nerfed yet (or because of an item synergy). If it's around 48% or lower he's just so bad that not EVEN the one tricks can pull out the stops on him.

[@zerozen2396]

Jokes on you imma kata one trick and I did want to hear this

[@LumiereBQ]

Especially when challenger Katarina players flip a coin to see how many ccs the enemy team has

[@dreamergamer9291]

if i have to fight a katarina i just pick akali or pantheon and watch her suffer

[@LumiereBQ]

@@dreamergamer9291 that's the thing XD

[@brocolive1950]

There seems to be a bias here : "the increased WR caused by people playing their OTP a lot is balanced out by just as many people 1st timing and failing at the champion". That might be true globally, but not at any given rank. The thing is, I believe 1st timing a champ you have no idea how to play, in a ranked game, is just troll, especially if it's a complicated champ. Like, it shouldn't happen, a little like ghost cleanse nunu shouldn't. Probably in lower elos where players have no idea what they're doing anyway, it happens more often. My point is that most likely, the elo inflation from OTPs gets more dominant in higher elo than its deflation from 1st trying trolls which is more dominent in low elo. Meaning that low elo WR are probably deflated, for example, a bronze riven player who actually plays her and tries his best to win is gonna have a higher winrate than the average bronze riven WR because a lot of 1st timing trolls lower the average WR, while a master riven player who knows the champ, tries his best, but doesn't OTP will have a lower winrate than the average master riven player because in masters, a lot of OTPs highen the average WR. TLDR : even though globally, low elo's deflation and high elo's inflation cancel out, most likely, the higher the elo, the more OTP champs have an inflated WR, the lower the elo, the more OTP champs have a deflated WR.

[@alex2005z]

Im really curious on how this study was done. What was the experiment, and how was it done. And why they couldnt just graph champions wr based on mastery

[@soul0172]

Watch the podcast he goes into detail on if. It does have to do with mastery, and winrate by mastery curves is a metric they look at for some things, but in this scenario it's more about how many people play games with certain mastery. For example Katarina is the champion with the highest influence on winrate by players with over 100k mastery. That influence is +0.4%. As I said if you watch the podcast he explains much better than I could, but that's one of the things he talks about iirc.

[@alex2005z]

@@soul0172 having watched the part of the podcast discussing this, it still doesnt answer all my questions. What happens when you restrict it to plat+ or higher? What champions have the highest increases in wr from mastery? And a lot more. That was a very small resume on the topic

[@soul0172]

@@alex2005z they have skill brackets on all their data they never just look at all ranks, and K'Sante gains the highest wr with mastery according to Phreak recently, previously it was Nidalee. I mean the segment covers pretty much everything you could need to know about how the problem was approached, he doesn't really leave anything out, if you disagree with his conclusions then say that, but based on the questions you asked it doesn't seem like you have any sound reasoning for it

[@alex2005z]

@soul0172 where did you see that? I watched the champions played by OTPs influences... chapter and didn't hear any of that. As for if I disagree with their conclusions, I do find them a bit odd at least. 20% of people have less than 10k mastery points? That's really low. That's why I wanted to know all the details

[@reistokrad]

Me a Sejuani top otp, who normally doesn't get ban cuz Sej normally works on pro play with proper comms and her in the jungle than in silver monkey braining the game.

[@They_Call_Me_HeartFace]

i though that was a general conclusion to everyone with every champ in league except the 4 or 5 who even the communitty remembers just to say "oh shit right, this thing exist"

[@ozthebeeman]

ye this reminds me when yi got buffed and his winrate fell by 0.5%

[@YukiChanC]

Riven: I Am the Speed

[@user-ok8yo7fs8q]

I'm terrible at the game, but some "skill capped champions" are just overpowered. Every time I hear that GP requires one-tricking to play it well, I know that a person may be delusional or clueless. Same is with some other champs

[@phoenixflamegames1]

No, but if you think gp can spam Q only to win you’re also wrong

[@dazeen9591]

Well I'm very mechanically challenged. I've been spamming games on Riven, Katarina, Qiyana, Zed, Zoe, Camille but honestly I feel like I'm actually getting worse as time goes on.

[@nsreturn1365]

@@phoenixflamegames1 they nerfed him hard sadge, feels super weird now with decay timer, ontop needs to go meele to now or q poke wont do it.

[@user-ok8yo7fs8q]

@@dazeen9591 then watch videos about their comobos, play against bots and polish combos in the train tool. I'm also terrible on mechanic champs, but I play them. I'm terrible in League, but I play it

[@user-ok8yo7fs8q]

@@phoenixflamegames1 against a clueless person and jgler, that's enough, in general it's not. But you don't have to play perfectly on a complex overpowered champion to play decently or even carry

[@MrPaperVader]

Ima just ignore everything you said before and after "Katarina is inflated"

[@marlvelius]

the sign of a true evergreen one trick "nerf my champ so i can play them" but its kinda funny to hear that its not just inflated by one tricks

[@pineapplegamer6986]

I don’t think anyone believed that only on tricks were boosting win rates that just really makes no sense. Winrates are adjusted by those that firstime and fail the champs so they don’t look busted but in reality they are in the right hands. Unless you’re explaining it wrong I don’t know how this is very surprising news of course a win rate is going to boost in general if a champ is strong but it’s going to be really strong if the player is a one trick.

[@fanpan5999]

qiyaan is definitely an exception

[@MH_VOID]

Can't trust that if the source isn't made available, which knowing rito, I can be almost certain that it isn't

[@Ludosquo]

as a kha rengar two trick I always love playing in gm/chall because literally everygame one or both are banned

[@absolutedomination5254]

For lower elo that can be the case , but for gm+ is not

[@Iyaruki]

as a zeri otp, I'm happy she never gets banned anymore at least

[@LightshaverConstellation]

As someone who wants Zeri in their pool because they love the q, I'm quite happy as well I can practice her in norms.

[@anon1963]

She's trash rn

[@NiadHGR]

I thought my phone alarm went off on that last second "byeee"

[@philipchouliaras5879]

TBF a better comparison would be to do this by rank. How many people in challenger are one tricks on X champ and how many people are just filling it becasue their team wanted magic/physical damage. Then do the same for GM and masters. Below that you dont even care about winrates tbh

[@pup1337]

Meanwhile Riot has The Talon Effect as an actual term.

[@dukesagami9974]

especially my rell riot decided to nerf her bwvause her winrate ia too higj but didnt care about the playerbased of rell one trick that made her look strong in the appearance. nerfing a champion based on winrate and ignoring the play rate is disgusting idea

[@amberjack7409]

Wonder if this is the case for unpopular champions like old asol Also how tf is that ivern so fast

[@vinaayagamkarunagaran3439]

idk which is scarier, a weird tree guy with long legs and hands who skips instead of walking, or the same weird tree guy skipping at Rival at so much speed that he still kept up with Rival's dashes

[@desgracainferno]

blue pet with W + shurelyas i guess, probably running some movespeed items which are popular on him like cosmic drive, ardent/flowing, lich bane edit: nevermind he got green pet, now im just as confused as you

[@ll-sz9fl]

That escape tho...

[@Bergyn]

But when looking at wr, pick rate or literally any stat you should filter atleast plat+ at minimum, and check their wr in other ranks like dia+ or dia2+ and im not sure if there are too many diamond players one tricking a champion in ranked but i guess there are different players out there wtf do i know

[@Cutton_Candy76]

Man, you and your Riven videos can't let us focus on what were you saying in the video!😂I focused more on how that Riven gonna escape than what you said about WR on one tricking champions!

[@saddocatto2784]

i did find one thing that is inflated not because of patches but just because of the player base. Swain mid-lane has an insane win rate right now but the reason for it is interesting, almost every new swain player plays him support since he is linked in the support category according to riot. Yet when a swain player gets better at the game they usually move to mid-lane as to carry more games and not rely on a crybaby adc. That's at least what I have noticed since there hasn't been any patches in a while that effect swain besides the wave changes and his winrate has gone up drastically for almost no reason

[@saddocatto2784]

its also the same with swain top 52% wr and casssio top which is realy high but its just because 1 tricks are only insane enough to play them in comp and not troll in casual

[@mrszmatan2727]

@@saddocatto2784 i'd argue that cassio and swain top are more case of those champions being simply strong against many toplane champs, so when one trick of cassio/swain goes top and gets easy matchup then he wins more frequently

[@LightshaverConstellation]

I haven't played swain top in a while, but when I am not playing Lilllia top and play Cass top, Cass feels really good into a lot of match ups

[@mustangcody]

So back in S9 when Riven was like a 54% win rate for the entire year wasn't because of onetricks but Riot balance team being assholes? Great, I'm glad Phroxzon put that info out.

[@warcriminalyes]

Riot is always scared to nerf/rework champions like Riven because of their playerbase. It's why no champion can have animation cancels but her.

[@InnerTriggerer]

Don't miss understanding that One Trick or Maining a champs do not have actual benefit. The statistic representing the whole players base on particular champ via popularity and mastery ratio. It's mainly reflect that there is no such thing as "inflated winrate" when they use WR to consider nerfing a champ.

[@thomasb5307]

Well arguably champions who are quite easy to pick up have "inflated winrates". It's just that it's defined by the polar opposite of OTPs, first timers

[@matteomarku7177]

​@@thomasb5307just take rengar for example, complete shit of a champions but the insane otps make it work, i went d1 with first item cosmic drive rengar top lol

[@matteomarku7177]

doesnt let me edit; then i swapped role, went mid picking meta champs, master 140 lp in less than a week xd.

[@crepit1413]

@@matteomarku7177 Rengar is not weak in the slightest, if that's what your comment was saying. Up there with reksai, kha, kindred as one of the strongest junglers atm.

[@thomasb5307]

@@matteomarku7177 You are deluded and proven wrong by the video, but i will assume u simply wanted to flex since ur personal experience adds nothing to the conversation about winrates. "GG" if that's what u wanted to hear

[@longstew]

I mean the otp wr thing only usually applies to chall/gm where there arent many one tricks of the same champion

[@shadows_star]

As an Ashe main, i relate right now so hard. It can be so difficult to get her now that shes got a positive winrate.

[@Parralelism]

"ashe main" just say ur iron

[@shadows_star]

@@Parralelism What does that even mean? Gotta be Iron to main Ashe? What kind of stupid ass logic is that?

[@soulsemblance3163]

But what about those very weird champs that are unlike any other does this also apply to champions like singed or kled and aphelios

[@cani2415]

I'm a Singed OTP and the 3 people playing Singed in high elo definatly inflate the win rate of his! Me as a hard stuck Dia 4/3 player can tell you that our champ is so weak that the 51% win rate of his comes from coin flip bot lanes. Singed can't carry a game solo

[@ZoroarkLover98]

I used to be an Ahri otp, and I never had this issue because... Like, people never ban her. However, I did know this was a thing! I used to watch a Pyke otp who was happy whenever he got nerfed so he could actually play Pyke

[@nema4250]

Yep, OTPs tend to get pissed off when their champion becomes too op because it means more picks and bans and eventually they can't even play it.

[@srensen3081]

@@nema4250 id much rather actually play the champ i want than get to play a broken version of that champ 50% of the time

[@mattgamei5vods649]

as an ahri otp (climbed from bronze 4 to silver 1) ahri is SO BUSTED right now like you should actually play her

[@awgiedawgie]

the only reason it doesnt affect u is because ur bronze once u get to at least plat u will see ahri getting picked every other game

[@mattgamei5vods649]

@@awgiedawgie ahri is not gonna get picked hopefully 🙏

[@LelouchV]

I don’t believe him, i want to know the details of this “experiment” There is no way an unplayable champion like yasuo is not getting a WR inflation to 49% from his masters. He is much better currently though after the last buffs and items changes. I know my example is not a great one since yasuo is popular champion with high play rate so it could balance and ik even his one tricks sometimes go 0/10 but still i could see a champion getting WR inflation, especially if it wasn’t a popular champion or if there are a lot of one tricks “which apply to yasuo btw”

[@Vega01]

Think of it like this. You will just be a different rank, but with the same winrate. If you onetrick a champion, you are better at that champion more than any other, so you would be a higher rank than if you played a different champ, but the winrate would even out over a long time anyway. Same winrate, higher rank

[@lmripper3659]

I'm having the same issues now. Draven got nerfed hard back in the days,i swapped to morde and now they're both buffed super hard while Draven still bein somewhat a little weaker compared to morde but either ways the ban rate just skyrocketed so much that i'm learning new champs just to be able to play something once they're both banned

[@ryan80166]

Yeah the balance team is really good at their job and we should believe them

[@diealready6274]

Pre asol rework it was like 54% winrate on KR plat+ cuz no one played it except a few

[@filipelopes99]

I never had that idea in the first place because it doesnt really make much sense

[@saberstiker19]

Mfw Samira was released, and I was happy she was getting reworked so I could actually play her

[@mindzio5013]

Winrate should only be displayed by good one tricks so we can see how is champion doing + only people like them can talk what champion is and what to do with it in case of buff/nerf.

[@Stereo-hb2lo]

That escape was clean

[@anon1963]

Just spam E Q

[@flufflesmonk]

The one thing I think when I hear that is that riot has their own different statistics

[@MazaniWastaken]

I doubt taliyah wr in master + is balanced by "first times" 2% pickrate or lower btw

[@imnotme1657]

I was about to call bullshit, but then he called out that Katarina is the exception and it all made sense.

[@lirvaen]

The problem with Riven is that it used to be and most likely still is the most elo inflated champion in League. The reasoning for that is simple, over the course of the seasons in League, most OTPs that were Challenger were Riven mains. Of course, I'm not counting you into that, since you play on a minor region, but it's still a fact. Riven is elo inflated.

[@ChuuyaHH]

I main skarner, i don't really think there are many people to ruin the winrate other than me mostly

[@regulareric8759]

there's a reason why yasou was buffed twice in the past 2 seasons. it's the dogs in silver throwing games on him. you can not convince me otherwise.

[@phantomdancer3279]

back in the frozen mallet yasuo peak days i used to wish the champ got nerfed so i can play it more but boy oh boy...ever since then i think he has been hit with around 20 different small nerfs and these days he doesnt feel that fun to play esp with the amount of over loaded kits there are now on new champions.

[@Hiriato]

me a teemo onetrick who has never heard of this excuse:

[@WilliamLloydBevan]

As an ivern otp I've recently gone through this... Although it was fun playing Olaf into first timing iverns

[@ExNihiloNihilFit319]

I actually want to see the data to see if it's true. Their words don't mean too much to me, I don't trust Riot too much, they've have a past of dishonesty.

[@estebanluduena9861]

Only the good otps realize how broken their champ is

[@mrszmatan2727]

Every spearshot short is just him doing some outplay and going on rant about how Pantheon is ultra broken rn

[@islixxn]

besides katarina

[@alyx669]

This just means those champs should get buffs then right? (Yas, Yone, Akali etc) Or am I missing something?

[@Siscogaptv]

Dang bro, from the title I thought they were nerfing one tricking in ranked somehow 😢

[@rrat2445]

I stopped being one trick because of this particular thing tho. Back then vayne was extra popular and I had to learn other champions to counter it or learn other lane because I don't like adcs like twitch and Caitlyn. I always get myself 2-4 pocketpicks that I could utilize for like 70% that I select depending on comp and matchups

[@yepcock5814]

Me: a katarina one trick 🤓

[@book5857]

I feel like singed wr is also a little inflated idk tho maybe im wrong

[@gamerkron2219]

What if you one trick a champion with a very low winrate (45%),but you have a very high winrate (70%) over 150+ games. Does this mean the champ is very bad or what does it mean

[@hehexd5317]

champ is good and popular, meaning many noobs play it and tank its winrate

[@idkmate1451]

K'sante moment

[@SiMeGamer]

Old Aurelion Sol was nerfed because of this many times. Crazy OTPs were so good at abusing his roaming that they nerfed his movement speed despite him having an overall terrible winrate.

[@gamerkron2219]

@@idkmate1451 yeah it is actually ksante. I got masters by one tricking him from like d4 after all the nerfs

[@johnbell7235]

*Stares in Zilean support main*

[@arabianwitcher705]

As a Rengar one trick i can agree with u

[@dummyburner7781]

lilbro doing the mission impossible escape holyy

[@HardDiff]

Eh renata glasc got like a 2ad nerf and haven’t seen anyone else pick it…which is great for me cause get like 99%chance of getting her

[@roipipi5898]

but they forgot people at high elo doesnt really first time champion, so they think a champion is balanced but in fact if you have hands not like silvers, gold, plat, dia you can 1v9, so the champ never gets nerf, am i right or do i miss a point ?

[@defactojones5076]

That is why I play 5 champs. No more, no less. In 2 roles.

[@wildart3253]

Its not the case for all champions. Kata, lb, ahri, and others are op when mastered but abusable and still broken when they are not mastered. Others like rengar, riven, aphelios are just pure dog champs if not mastered and played to their almost limit potential. This « experiment » is biased for sure, using kata as example which is probably the most noob friendly and popular otp pick

[@vycronvandarkin7639]

Katarina has the steepest winrate incline. She actually has a very high skill floor

[@cliffhanger906]

I would like to use the best example from aurelion sol. Before his rework only challenger OTP players can really put out his kit and dominate with him, while the rest in low Elo just didn't know how to play him right and would feed hard. Another example though is false statistics. I used to main Jayce back in season 7, his early level 3 powerspike was truly dominating and can 1-shot champs if not respected. THEN once season 8 came with the reowrked skill trees, People complained of how broken he is and how he deals too much damage, even though it was in the pre season where nobody knew what rune to run on. They didnt know Doran shield with second wind was a great sustain. So if a Jax with conquerer/inspiration starts with corrputing pot doesnt respect my strong early game. Is it my fault or Riot HQ or the enemy player fault, that the champ is doing too much damage? So they decided to rework his Kit and made his early game completly garbage. Now you have to play pixel perfect with the champ in order to do good, not great but just good. It was a totaly unprofessional decision to make.

[@delsami]

old asol wasnt that hard, u just needed matchup knowledge and good spacing and before the meganerfs anyone who could play him got insane amounts of free elo

[@cliffhanger906]

@@delsami He was a unique champ that needed a special learning curve, every champ needs to learn good spacing. His 3 comets to hit and maintaing damage was actually quite hard because it was so different than any champ. Same goes with Singed, their playstyle and learing curve is really different than the usual champs.

[@delsami]

@@cliffhanger906 ye hitting comets is just better spacing than ur opponent thats why i said it + he just let his w clear the wave at the same time and went to do a galaxywide stun into botlane

[@endergame8267]

I am a one trick too, and when my champ is broken, i dont lie so i can feel better

[@matufamenulis8527]

glad tf will (probably) never be on the ban list and i can one trick