Kirsten Dunst's Mary Jane

[@Matthew-xz7vl]

I never hated MJ and honestly it's good to see someone at least appreciate what Sam tried to do with the trilogy that I see very few people bring up when discussing her, her trauma from an abusive dad.

[@mariobadia4553]

Yeah but head trauma doesn't justify her being a bad person

[@Matthew-xz7vl]

@@mariobadia4553 It doesn't excuse it but it makes her character more fleshed out and relatable to a lot of people, and it's clear throughout Spider-Man 3 she wants to support Peter and his issues but has a hard time with the way he tries to support her. Their relationship isn't what they expected and that's why she almost goes back to Harry even though it wasn't exactly what she wanted before. I think Spider-Man 4 would have addressed trying to mend their relationship after what happened in 3 with Harry interfering with it and the symbiote urging Peter to be an ass and hit MJ.

[@mariobadia4553]

@@Matthew-xz7vl it actually makes her ex-fiance more relatable for men who've been cheated on by a selfish woman

[@Matthew-xz7vl]

@@mariobadia4553 nah

[@danielhart7435]

@@mariobadia4553 Because the world is perfect and everyone sings happily together in a nice little circle

[@stanfordfeynman2796]

What also makes it even more difficult to talk about is that her personality (in the first film especially) is literally that of comic Gwen. This is mentioned in the DVD commentary for the first film, where the filmmakers discuss that since they wanted to avoid using Gwen directly, they thought it would be best to combine aspects of Gwen and MJ into one love interest: Raimi MJ. This is kind of ironic, as they would later introduce Raimi Gwen in Spider-Man 3, where guess what, her external personality is closer to early comic MJ than movie MJ’s. It’s a weird dichotomy that, due to the Raimi movies’ hold over the Spidey zeitgeist, has completely tarnished the reputation of Mary Jane Watson forever in the eyes of non-comic readers. Many of the criticisms people hold over her: being a typical damsel, the use of the “naggy” archetype, etc. were all Gwen back in the late 60s and 70s. Now, Gwen is seen as this incredibly interesting character after the TASM movies completely overhauled her personality and banter with Peter. The odd truth is, Gwen was just a “boring” love interest that became a target to Conway and Romita. The idea of Gwen was more engaging than her actual self, which similar to Raimi Peter’s weird obsession with her, is exactly that: an object of affection with surface level portrayal, even though their motivations and struggles are genuine. Maybe one day we’ll get that great portrayal of MJ in a movie, but dear god, every MJ adaption since Raimi (besides Spectacular) has tried to overcompensate for the her portrayal when they really don’t need to. This entire time, people have been criticizing the characterization and personality of Gwen, not MJ, and that’s what I find so funny. Still, the Raimi movies at least got her motivations and struggles perfectly (the tragic home life, external need for validation, the career path, etc. it’s just a shame that her characterization barely reflects its purpose).

[@LukeLovesRose]

Exactly. But look at MJs home life here. Shes got a lot of character quirks from this abusive home life. That's a lot of character development. That's a lot of character we dont see in Gwen Stacy and especially this new "diverse' MJ

[@mr.moviemafia]

@@LukeLovesRose I agree with the character development part and think Dunst's MJ deserves more appreciation than she gets, and you don't have to like Zendaya in the new films, but please there's no need to make this an issue about "diversity"

[@LukeLovesRose]

@@mr.moviemafia Why? They're shoving it down our throats

[@nathanhills336]

@@LukeLovesRose Just because she’s a different race doesn’t mean she’s diverse. That’s not their goal, at least I don’t think. I definitely enjoy her more than Raimi MJ. Gwen takes the cake as the best live action love interest though

[@ophanimangel3143]

@@nathanhills336Maybe we wouldn’t view Zendaya’s character that way if we actually were given better character development out of her. Ironically, the one who plays Liz Allen seems to have more potential in some development if only she wasn’t written as daughter of Vulture. I just think Zendaya is not a really good actress in general.

[@generalkenobi7873]

Great video ! It's one of the biggest misunderstanding of the trilogy to me : MJ isn't too whiny or selfish, she just had a very hard life and she's so F-in tired of being treated like trash by everybody in her life, including Peter (cause remember she has no idea he's Spider-man until the end of 2 so she has absolutely no idea why he's so absent and he only gives her half baked excuses)

[@averagehatsunemikuenjoyer1543]

THANK YOU

[@averagehatsunemikuenjoyer1543]

SOMEONE HAD TO SAY IT

[@Imagocorporation]

Those time gaps between films be crazy, and likely MJ kept dating other guys. I'm fucking calling it, Peter had to have moments to vent at MJ, but because she came from an abusive home it's easy to excuse the fact that unlike Peter, she can hop into relationships with no issue and gain some kind of narcissistic feed to keep her going, while Peter positively does it by being genuine and helping those he can and chooses to without thought of any reward. His reward, was to make his life better, have MJ in his life and the people around him. Peter was a fucking solid dude, MJ was fucking HIM up.

[@trekwars67]

​@@averagehatsunemikuenjoyer1543you're goddamn right.

[@JonCofer]

These movies have some kind of hard to watch moments now that I'm a little older. The way her father & diner boss treat her, the way Norman & Harry treat her. Even Peter slaps her across the face for goodness sake. Some real toxic relationships in MJs' life

[@mariobadia4553]

She had the chance of a happy marriage with Jamesons son and threw it away so she can be in a stressful relationship with Peter who could die every time he puts on the Spider-Man outfit

[@rahbeeuh]

@@mariobadia4553 some people choose violence

[@tomberver1075]

She ditched a wedding with Jameson’s son just because his kiss didn’t taste like Spider-Man’s.

[@mariobadia4553]

@@tomberver1075 she's

[@Imagocorporation]

MJ slapped PETER in the face and he took it head on repeatedly across the trilogy. Throw some respeck on man's name

[@shadeop6773]

I realised I loved Gwen Stacy so much from TASM movies was because she is literally Mary Jane from the comics. Anyone who has read comics knows that comics Gwen Stacy is nothing like the movie version.

[@JLacay]

Although TASM movies are alright, I'll be lying if I said I prefer Mary Jane to Gwen Stacy. Gwen Stacy did so much more than Mary Jane and wasn't a damsel in distress for those movies. I even felt Andrew Garfield's Peter Parker and Gwen Stacy had a better romance than Tobey Maguire and Mary Jane

[@rahbeeuh]

@@JLacay for one Emma Stone is a better actress (at least imo). That's not to knock KD bc she's a good actress as well. It also helped that both ES and AG were dating.

[@FreyaEinde]

Yeah, movie MJ has Comic Gwen Stacy's personality and movie Gwen Stacy has Mary Janes comic personalty...with MJ from the home movies being a combo character

[@Deathmare235]

@@JLacay doesn’t mean much since the Raimi romance sucked

[@ttowen]

I’ve always argued that the Raimi interpretation of Peter had the perfect iterations of MJ and Harry (for him.) MJ in the comics represented how much more adult and free relationship for Peter than what he has been trying to juggle before. She was somebody who wouldn’t be too upset if he had to cut the day short and was essentially his dream girl at the time. The fact that the original films moved his college relationships to be a part of peters high school days meant that they needed to be handled differently, and, while I don’t like that Harry and Peter essentially go through the same rivalry story in part two and three, showing these relationships grow overtime be at through growing apart, together, or a weird mix of both, really fits the story these films were telling

[@Haliceph]

Thank you so much for this vid essay! I've always loved the Raimi trilogy for how fleshed out MJ's arc was like with Harry and Peter. I always felt like she wasn't written with being a love interest in mind but a character study as complex as the others were! This MJ deserved so much more than what the fanbase gave her..

[@anubhavkumarc]

"Peter vs Sandman and Venom was all about Avi Arad's fantasy." Perfect description lol

[@GOODYGOODGOOD789]

1:29 Well in her defense the only things she could have done in that scenario is that say "I don't" when the priest ask "Do you take this man to be your lawfully webbed husband" which would have been even more embarrassing since you are saying no directly to his face in front of an entire church full of people (all of which would have obviously known it was saying no) vs what she did do and that's say no indirectly to him in front of a church full of people (some of whom might not know what was going on so there isn't know for sure it was her saying no). So in reality she had to pick the lesser of two embarrassments for John Jameson.

[@inazuma3gou]

I cheered at 6:51 with the mention of the "T" word... Thanks for a great video as always.

[@madtitan0825]

Her trying to kiss her fiancé like how she kissed spidey upside down is just low…

[@mariobadia4553]

Not as Louis cheating on her fiance on their wedding day.

[@katobrucelee08]

I always saw it as her trying to figure out if she really loved Peter. Whereas when Spidey kissed Gwen in the same fashion he was showboating, hence MJ’s reaction in Spider-man 3. This is highlighted by the somber tone of MJ's kiss and Spiders thumb up of approval. This is a much recommended video that covers MJ and Peters relationship in Spider-man 3 and to some extend the trilogy kzbin.info/www/bejne/i3WTlIGIqK-onck

[@Сайтамен]

She compared two kisses to know is it just a coincidence that Peter tastes like Spider-Man or not.

[@IAmTheDoctor00]

Lol love that ending rant the ending bits always make me giggle but I'm right there with ya. I had such a crush on Kirsten Dunst as MJ I still have a soft spot and was somehow offended when I realized she was married to Jesse Plemmons (Todd from breaking bad)

[@andrehenderson7820]

Oh this one is definitely going to be interesting

[@thegneech]

Man, I want that discussion of how Raimi-MJ deconstructs Stan's MJ!

[@Xehanort10]

The Insomniac Spider-Man game's version of Mary Jane and her and Peter's relationship was done far better than in the Raimi films. In the game they broke up because she was sick of him treating her like a damsel. Peter was also worried about her putting herself in danger to try to help but after they work together to find out what the Devil's Breath drug Norman Osborn originally created as a cure for Harry's terminal illness is with MJ even stopping Mr Negative infecting a train station full of people with it by following Peter's instructions they work things out and get back together with Peter learning to stop being oveprotective and Mary Jane realising she can help him without risking herself so much.

[@michaelhurst1719]

Hey now, this isn't the rambling of an idiot in his 20s justifying his childhood crush in a video watched by a few hundred strangers. This is the rambling of an idiot in his 20s justifying his childhood crush in a video watched by a few thousand strangers. Really big difference there. But seriously, another great video essay.

[@soychidoese]

10:13 Can we take a moment and relish in the fact that Semper Jr. stood up to STAN LEE, and succeeded in making something great as a result? That is dedication for the craft and character.

[@markodjuric4282]

Great analysis!

[@blindmanai6957]

4:13, thats my daily dose of therapy for the day.

[@Mephiestopholes]

What a life. I love you, Leo. Can't wait for the vid on MJ#2 I actually just rewatched the MJ comparison vid 2 days ago.

[@Aisha_Luv]

Ok, I was JUST thinking before the video how I hope you do a video on MCU MJ, and that tease makes me think we have the same idea.

[@duncanplatz9110]

Gonna say it once again, this channel is criminally under watched.

[@Romezguide]

Man your on fire 🔥 this was another great one I think I’m signing up to your Patreon

[@KillerTacos54]

Great video man. I thoroughly enjoy your Spider-Man-related videos so much

[@ChrisPTenders]

I'd say more "false identity" than "fantasies". That word marginally works for Harry and his father issues, but kinda callously implies Uncle Ben's desire for Peter to live honestly and peacefully as a bid for controlling his life's outcome more than an attempt to make him aware of destructive behavior (that comes back to bite him when he impulsively smacks MJ), when his sad backing down says otherwise. But that's off topic. Stellar defence of a wonderfully written character. I still hate her. But now Peter smacking her kinda hits different.

[@barnacles1352]

yo i am so confused by ote is such a banger, glad you have it as an outro

[@brycea33]

What an amazing video.

[@abyanfilms]

I always liked MJ and always wanted to give her a hug especially after the slap in Spider-Man 3

[@JosephDutra]

The older we get, the more we understand Mary Jane.

[@GoneZombie]

"I have a father. His name was Uncle Ben!"

[@kingofthegundam7974]

Didn't Peter kiss Gwen before the dinner scene? I felt like she was kinda right to be mad at him at that point.

[@bakedbeans5494]

It means nothing if she's a hypocrite.

[@nestorsifuentesaguirre2722]

@@bakedbeans5494 Or in Abridged Yami language: Orichalcos aka GIANT FUCKING HYPOCRITE

[@MrMrAnonimer]

Why isn't this channel named Trauma already?

[@DrJay-iy8rv]

Imma need to see that Chase Meridian video lol

[@zk6029]

Thanks for this video😂

[@rickrivers2021]

Raimi was excellent at writing simple and understandable motivations. Still pisses me off that this was Mary Jane that was written this way, because she has completely different motivations in the comics. In the comics, she's still a flawed character that has to work through her struggles. But you actually want her and Peter to be successful. In these movies I want Peter to get as far away from MJ as possible. I recognize trauma messed up her life, but she's still not good for him.

[@Mildredpotka]

right because he is such a stable man himself.

[@thenoblerot1511]

Really great video man. Nuff said.

[@crowtzilla461]

Nice video, thought you missed this scene from the extended cut of 2 which personally adds a lot to her character: kzbin.info/www/bejne/habNgIZsnrF9gtk Basically the scene says that the only reason that she's dating John is to try and get back at her father to prove that she's more than "trash". So at the end she basically learns that she doesn't need to prove anything to him and that she can live her life with whom she chooses.

[@LockeGran]

I remember that scene and while it was a good one, I don't think it helps her character much. Her whole storyline in the 2nd movie was a mess it would need a rewrite to make it better, especially if you consider the 3rd movie where she sounded like a hypocrite about how Spidey kissed Gwen.

[@danielwadford3699]

​@@LockeGranI give her and everyone else in Spiderman 3 a free pass because that was mostly Sam Raimi's original idea compromised with Sony producer Avi Arad's Venom toy commercial.

[@alang.bandala8863]

Funfact: the actrez sometimes fought with Sam Raimi ablut the portray of the character

[@danielwadford3699]

Many people hate Raimi MJ for being a screaming damsel in distress as opposed to her comic counterpart who can defend herself. However, if you read the 60's and 70's comics you'll notice that it was actually her original characterization. In one comic, a dinosaur was about to fall on her and she screamed for help. After Spiderman saved her, he told her to "cut the screaming" because "it makes you sound like a blasted air raid siren." That's right, in the early comics, Spiderman made fun of MJ for screaming. The badass MJ didn't appear until the 80's when she was officially his girlfriend and later his wife when she knew that there would be a target on her back which meant that she had to be ready to defend both herself and Peter.

[@princessleia4270]

I love Mary Jane Watson from comics and even from movies.

[@thevoid99]

i hope she appears in "doctor strange in the multiverse of madness" where a villain is about to kill spider-man, dr. strange, wanda, loki, and the rest of the gang and then BOOM!!! the villain is knocked out and it's mary jane saves them as she says "i am so over this damsel-in-distress shit" she helps the good guys and gets rid of a few bad guys. in the end, she gets a theatrical role as a villain which gives her a career revival with peter parker and their kids including miles morales cheering along with doctor strange, dr. palmer, wong, america chavez, loki, kid loki, gator loki, throg, wanda, billy and tommy, mobius, hunter b-52, and casey the receptionist cheering as well before they return to their regular universe.

[@orbakun]

People like her more but I found the spiderman ps4 version more egregious despite it being my favorite video game and favorite interpretation of spiderman. Kirsten dunce in whiny, manipulative, untrustworthy and annoying sure but the Mary Jane in spiderman ps4 is just stupid she gets herself into the most dangerous situations like wandering into a private military base and trespassing into the mayors office just to get herself into a situation that she needs saving in and then yell at Peter when he helps out. And what does she have to say for herself? “I may not have super spider powers but im not made outta glass” no you aren’t you are made of flesh, flesh that doesn’t do so well against a fuckin bullet

[@julianmelchor9113]

Randomly came across a coworker watching ur video's. Sparked a kool conversation. Keep making videos. Ur doing amazing!!!

[@abiyyufh1566]

2:55 what is the song name ? Found it, it's 🎵Pina Coladas - Las Lunas🎵

[@Mr_Case_Time]

“Dunst’s” is tough to say.

[@o.8.p149]

I mean this MJ isn’t the real villain but she is kinda a jerk it’s possible that Peter probably should have not gotten with her

[@curtismadden2010]

Did he delete his eternals video?

[@loganhurley4764]

Got a NWH ad before this.

[@ghostsurfer23]

4,201 views at the time of writing this comment. "video watched by a few hundred strangers" indeed.

[@pedrocatoira2695]

❤

[@artoriapendragon1972]

We are back for more Trauma XDD

[@adrianpavone6722]

Pls video on the MCU MJ after No Way Home!!!! 🙏🙏🙏🙏

[@ilikecinema33]

Can’t forget the fact she was selfish and a homie hopper. I always understood why she was the way she was but eventually how you treat people becomes your fault. Can’t blame your past forever.

[@PeterParker-ff7ub]

everyones a psychologist

[@kcirtapelyk6060]

8:55 what is that song?

[@epicmonkey6663]

Could you do a video essay on Dexter please?

[@luan28martins4]

This is such a interesting take on a character who was treated just as the "chick" by the movies

[@xdavier31]

Have you watched Arcane League of Legends on Netflix? I think you'd find it interesting, especially in relation to TRAUMA and all that good stuff.

[@shelbybooker1478]

Dying at the 5:57 mark 🤣🤣🤣

[@zenmaster8]

I can’t wait for your zendaya MJ after uh that scene from the trailer

[@chuckleberryflin]

Avi is such a meme

[@CoOlKyUbI96]

Imma just be honest. I only liked this portrayal of MJ in the stories because I thought the actress was hot lmaooooo

[@BIGwillTHEGAME]

KZbin Recommended

[@adriaofc]

MCU MJ pleaseeeee

[@pancholeonatondo4467]

Anyone knows what comic issue is from the panel in 10:23 ?

[@Foxy-Mask_Menace]

I liked how Kirsten isn't some drop dead gorgeous woman like in the comics.

[@YourMom-bv4os]

I definitely love this MJ, I just believe that her and Peter can never work in my opinion. So much cheating and I think they both deserved someone better!

[@Shift_Salt]

I don't hate Mary Jane, and I think people who do need to put their fuckin pitchforks down. I think when I was a kid watching these it was as simple as "He's the hero, she's the girl who loves him, and it's kinda complicated." Overtime it's just clear how she's a bit dated, and while she certainly could have been written better, maybe if the film was made in more recent years, she isn't inherently bad because she represents an idea of mary jane influenced by the older times and the writer's own personal views of the character.

[@paulocontreras]

6:47 various affairs? puritan alert!

[@kylemccormack1785]

This isn't a video about Odin.

[@ionutcristian9650]

I didn't like MJ either but i never like love interest/damsels in distress because it feels like filler, superhero movies should't be about that stuff, but since we are on the topic, spidey kissed gwen in public knowing MJ was in the crowd and later actes like he did nothing wrong. So i can't say she's completely wrong, although she goes through men faster than clothes.

[@AstonishingRed]

Toby was WEIRDEST Peter Parker.

[@Someguywithalotoftism]

I honestly think Holland is still the best live action spiderman. I actually prefer miles but I'm biased since I'm also black and latino

[@daniellevy2272]

OK, I get it... But having been abused isn't an excuse for being a terrible person, and I have experienced abuse myslef, we really don't want to encourage these kinds of stereotypes 🙃

[@mariobadia4553]

Yeah I mean how does that excuse her leaving her fiance high and dry at the altar so she can cheat on him with another man? She traded in a most likely long and happy marriage to be with the guy that almost dies on a weekly basis.

[@samsonajayi6920]

Soooo, I’m not trying to say that abuse justifies questionable behavior, but I do believe that there’s a broader perspective of a person’s situation that should be explored instead of implying that everyone’s response to trauma should be universal

[@danielhart7435]

@@samsonajayi6920 Personally flawed humans are more interesting in stories. People are complex after all.

[@LockeGran]

What stereotypes, really? At best, she's a woman who made bad decisions which every living being did in their life. If she is terrible, then she wouldn't say anything to Peter and be a bitch after the first movie where he rejected her. Or, she stays with Harry on the the 3rd movie after kissing him and not feel bad about it. C'mon, you're reaching. There's no a bad "stereotypes" about her here. If anything, it's the "running away from your wedding day" cliché like some of the old romance movies which is just a dated perspective by now.

[@ralexande]

очень сексуальная женщина

[@moonknight4053]

Ursula ditkovich still should’ve been Peters mrs!!

[@aidanhever3369]

I don't know why Sam Raimi flanderized MJ in the sequels. Yeah, I know she has a horrible life because of her father in the comics and other versions, but she's not a shallow and pitiful b"BEEP"ch who always feels sorry for herself. Hell, her entire character looks more like Gwen Stacy than the actual Mary Jane Watson. Even The Spectacular Spiderman co-creator: Greg Weisman sees her that way.

[@nestorsifuentesaguirre2722]

When even non Raimi Spider Man creators sound pissed or disappointed at this YOU KNOW YOU FUCKED IT UP

[@aidanhever3369]

@@nestorsifuentesaguirre2722 Excuse me ?

[@nestorsifuentesaguirre2722]

@@aidanhever3369 No joke. Think about it. Other directors being disappointed at other works is a sign something is wrong. Raimi really earned detractors and it was never limited to random civilians. And I wanted to thank MJ because without her maybe I would have never abandoned my hatred over Danvers

[@BStance_Warrior]

She cheated on Harry. She could’ve left him instead of cheating.

[@Someguywithalotoftism]

Ngl I still hate Mary Jane sooooooo much from the sam raimi movies. But tbh... I domt like those movies. I didnt even like spiderman cause of these movies. But then I played the 2018 game and watch spiderverse.

[@earlgreysweatpants]

Brilliant video!

[@NiggaChickenSticks]

2:36 That is a fucking lie, if anything the Raimi films get shitted on the most by fans then the other 2 😭😭😭 nobody acts like their superior nor do they use it to dismiss any other version of Spider-Man. Its funny I see people bring that up alot but I’ve yet to actually witness it myself .

[@adammyers7383]

I look at the Raimi movies now, and I realize the place the characters were in at the end of 3 was right where I’d like them to be. People like to spout how well the Raimi trilogy explores consequences, but by the end of Spider-Man 2 he and MJ are on the verge of getting pretty much everything they ever wanted despite the way they’ve treated each other as well as some of the other people they love. Then Spider-Man 3 comes along and actively works to underline the fact that they didn’t have to change or grow all that much to get it and that’s actually bad. The ambiguity of the MJ/Peter relationship at the end of Spider-Man 3 offers the potential for them to start over, learn from their mistakes, and really love each other properly-or to decide they don’t work and to see other people. If we had a Spider-Man 4 they probably would be together and we’d see more issues arise, but this ambiguity allows a strange hope for both characters.

[@Jansenbaker]

Yes! I didn't know how to say it, and you pointed out some things I didn't notice before.

[@LockeGran]

I do like the ambiguity of the ending of the trilogy as it didn't necessarily show that they are back together, just that they forgive each other and that's one of the main theme in the 3rd movie.

[@dylancole1910]

Perfectly put, I agree

[@tomberver1075]

She was with an asshole like flash, moved to Harry despite not even liking him and kissing Spider-Man while still with Harry. Then she moved to Peter and and left him god knows how many times. She even agreed to marry Jameson’s son and didn’t even show up to the wedding because his kiss didn’t taste like Spider-Man’s. Norman was right about her. She is way too toxic. Never date women with daddy issues.

[@adammyers7383]

@@tomberver1075 she was a plot point, rather than a character. I wouldn’t advise agreeing with Norman on pretty much anything, that view on women is pretty horrific regardless of circumstances. And let’s not forget that Peter is at fault here, too, whether the movies want to acknowledge it or not.

[@bctalicorn809]

You have to look at their relationship like this: Peter first loved her and it was unrequited up until senior year of high school. MJ dates rich people trying to prove something to her father, but they end up only hurting her even more. The more she hangs out with Pete, the more she realizes how comfortable she is just being in her own skin, hense the line "that I'm just... me... and that's okay" at the end of the first movie. She confesses her love for Peter, full well knowing he is the best thing that has ever happened to her, so when he turns her down, she falls back into her old habit. She gives him one last chance at his birthday in Spider-Man 2 before deciding to give up on the dream of being with Peter Parker, whom she claims was a fantasy. You have to realize, out of Peter's sacrifice for not wanting to endanger her, he comes off as a jerk to her. Playing an excruciatingly long game of "will they won't they" with her. And it comes to a head when he doesn't show up at her play despite promising he'd be there for her. She finds out that he's no better than any other man in her life, so she'll just settle for being unhappily married to a celebrity so that way, on the surface, she'll look happy. Once she finds out he's Spider-Man, everything clicks for her. She knows what she wants, and she knows she'll be miserable her whole life if she doesn't choose Peter. So, she, for once in her life, does a selfish thing but for the betterment of her health this time. And for Peter's sake too. She's knows how strongly they feel for each other, and think they'd be better together. By the time the third movie rolls around, the cracks start to show in this previously severely unhealthy unrelationship they've had during Spider-Man 2. Niether of them are really wrong for feeling the way they do, but they're not really listening or trying to understand each other. All the while, Harry's offering her what Peter used to. Peter's love is split between Mary Jane and being Spider-Man. It's his love of Spider-Man that pulls them further apart, as he makes terrible judgement calls just for the thrill of it. All the while, he's lost touch of what it means to be a normal person. He's trying to relate MJ's problems with Spider-Man's when he should be relating to them personally as Peter, and that's his downfall. Harry gives her that "down to earth" voice that reminds her of simpler times. I just finished watching the trilogy back to back, and I really liked the journey MJ went on. I relate to her and Peter's relationship because it's really messy. It's not perfect. I also disagree that she isn't a likeable character or a horrible person: she's just human with a ton of baggage. I don't think it's accurate to the source material, by any means, but I still love the interpretation on display here and Kirsten Dunst does a really good job in all three movies.

[@deatherusfather]

Underrated comment

[@aericabison23]

This comment right here, ladies and gentlemen 👏 👏 👏 🏆 🥇

[@n.jsukitte9999]

Thanks, someone finally said it. Mary Jane never wanted to date terrible rich guys or get married, she just wanted a place to belong to.

[@Johnnysmithy24]

I FULLY agree with this

[@danielzapata9600]

Best Kirsten Dunst's Mary Jane take I've read in the whole internet.

[@HereAlex]

Finally, someone not straight up hating MJ

[@tammiehenderson6328]

I hate MJ I think she was good on part 3 but when Tobey spider man needed to save her I was like again

[@ThePonderer]

I maintain that Dunst’s MJ is characterized *perfectly* by the first film, and is done a real disservice in both sequels. The first movie seems really consciously aware of just how much all the men in her life sans Peter are projecting onto her, and even Peter doesn’t afford her much agency despite allowing her to be more herself. 2 & 3 seem to lose track of that and make her a way less empathetic character, and it’s a shame.

[@katherinealvarez9216]

Yes! I loved MJ in the movie novelization, because it expanded on that and then the sequels came along. They kind of mentioned that her childhood and homelife was horrible but didn’t do much with it.

[@CometStar100]

Yeah I mostly agree. I still have some problems with MJ in the first movie but she wasn't a dislikable character but then the second and third movie happened lol.

[@LukeLovesRose]

I disagree. She had good reason to be the way she was in Spider-Man 2. She didnt know what was going on with Peter. He also turned her down cold in a cemetery. Most women wont forget that

[@maldon3659]

@@LukeLovesRose the thing is though it's hinted at the end of Spider-man 1 that she knows Peter is Spider-man then Spider-man 2 further hints at this with the way she kisses John Jameson and then at the end of 2 ahe says she somehow knew he was Spider-man all along

[@LukeLovesRose]

@@maldon3659 So? Shes not assuming anything which is good. Shes waiting for him to reveal himself

[@hosaepalvin9795]

Kirsten dunst has the voice and sincerity shielded by confidence I hear when I read MJ in the comics. especially when she’s pouring her heart out as MJ at the end of Spider-Man 2. Kirsten dunst is an amazing MJ.

[@LukeLovesRose]

And she actually has a backstory and character... unlike the new MJ who seems to just exist to be cool or sexy or funny

[@LukeLovesRose]

@Julian R To you

[@BetterWithBob]

A moment that really got me on a most recent rewatch it is the backyard scene where she opens up to Peter about wanting to be an actress, and her face completely lights up when he says "that's perfect". Given what kind of house she's grown up in and the lack of meaningful friendships in her life, she's possibly never shared that dream with anyone before or even been told she could do something like that. She puts so much emotion into that excited little "really?" and you can tell it means the world to her

[@hunterlawrence3573]

The only problem I really had with Raimi's MJ was all the cheating, but that wasn't just her, that was pretty much everyone in that trilogy. That was more of a problem with the writing in the movies as a whole than MJ specifically

[@Deathmare235]

That’s a Raimi thing I’d say Peter’s was the worst but that’s probably cause he’s Peter if there’s one thing Raimi can’t do it’s romance

[@lampad4549]

When did peter cheat?

[@hunterlawrence3573]

@@lampad4549 When he kissed Gwen

[@theunknownvoidz1409]

@@hunterlawrence3573 Yeah, thx to the Black Suit influence tho…

[@hunterlawrence3573]

@@theunknownvoidz1409 Nope. That was before he had it

[@link4universe]

Your videos are some of the best i've ever seen on this platform and i've been here since 2006 as a user and as a creator. I had 5 channels, made thousands of videos and followed hundreds of channels all over the world and very, very very few of them have your style, relatability, depth, voice acting, passion and wonder and love for the content. I trully, really, appreciate these with all my heart and will never thank you enough not only for me, but for reminding me, even after 15 blody years on youtube, why this place is, sometimes, magic.

[@ryansproviero]

Very well said :-)

[@Oliver300Dude]

Agreed.

[@michelebianchi2213]

Ciao Adrian

[@Abominatrix650]

Ditto.

[@rahbeeuh]

Omgsh this is so heartfelt. 😭

[@aspen1713]

I get why people don’t like MJ’s character, but growing up with these movies and seeing her living situation/traumatic experiences, I related to her a lot (also had the biggest crush on her as a kid haha)

[@smoker5989]

I had a crush on her too (i think most of us did) but i didn't liked how she broke with Peter and head to another men when Peter didn't try to replace her well except in the third movie but that's because he was being controlled by the symbiote for most of the movie only to came back to him.

[@10sansari]

As a person who related to MJ's living situation as well, I think it's absolute horse shit the way she behaves. I am who I am in spite of my past, not because of it.

[@527398]

@@10sansari all people are different and react differently to their traumas. Some might try to be better than that, some fall headfirst into this hellhole and start behaving just like their family, some get severe mental health issues etc. It's all different.

[@lavondavis6522]

@@527398 no u get help there’s no excuse

[@eddylui366]

She was my first celebrity crush at the age of 6

[@tophtopherson8920]

What the hell does this video start out lightly criticizing the outsized weight of the raimi series and then turns into an honest and emotionally-studious examination of one of the most maligned characters in that series? This is great and I also love Kirsten Dunst and feel like she got screwed over

[@delix787]

People don’t know how to separate the writing and the actual actor! Kristen Dunst did nothing wrong!

[@littlestudioplanet2419]

Great video Implicitly Pretentious. Dunst's MJ is actually written in a very realistic way, and doesn't get perhaps more deserving appreciation. With that said, her repeated cheating (and leaving John at the altar), while realistic, naturally makes someone unlikable. She has sadly If MJ was shown to acknowledge her flaws and work to overcome them, then she would be viewed in a more positive light. As it stands, we didn't get to fully see that journey, and the third film especially didn't allow for more of that type of progression with her. I would love to see MJ's childhood in more detail, like her hiding in her room during her parents' arguments. Or her earlier affections towards a younger Peter that she wouldn't, or couldn't acknowledge. Not to mention why she felt the need to act like the popular girl in school. This MJ has always had a lot of potential for story and endearment, and she's a lot closer to 616 MJ and Ultimate MJ than people may realize. Of course, it always comes down to execution.

[@LukeLovesRose]

Well said

[@danielwadford3699]

That kind of sounds like a Spiderman version of Jenny from Forrest Gump. Maybe we could have seen a child Peter seeing MJ as the same age as him and it would be similar to Forrest meeting Jenny for the first time.

[@danielwadford3699]

If Avi Arad didn't interfere with Spiderman 3, we probably would have seen Mary Jane's character progress. Raimi said that he didn't believe in all the characters when making 3 so he just gave up on them which would include MJ.

[@lucareevef]

MJ's self-esteem was utterly diminished by the constant abuse her father had put on her. It isn't until she looked within herself that she realizes all the men in her life were just temporary fixes to prove her worth to her father. She craved that validation and didn't care who provided it regardless if they really knew her as a person or not. it took a while for Mary Jane to even acknowledge Peter due to her feeling undeserving of anybody who actually sees her for who she is instead of what people see her as and have made her out to be, like her father. MJ admitting her love for peter was a major step in character development. Love the Raimi trilogy so much.

[@LindaDulcinea]

Very interesting video! Raimi's MJ is compelling, complex, and, most of all, human. The criticisms of her, IMHO, are misguided; unless, of course, one believes that women are supposed to be chaste, perfect, and fall in line in order to be good or valid 🙄... I know you're defending her in this video, but even the things that you rattle off as facts in the first section reflect a misunderstanding of the nuances of the relationships in the films, and this is what I see over and over when people criticize this character. MJ doesn't "date Harry behind Peter's back". Harry dates MJ behind Peter's back; the only reason Peter even finds out is because MJ tells him---she's not hiding anything from Peter. This is a totally different situation with completely different implications for MJ's character. (And for Harry's character, who is the only POS in this specific scenario, though no one ever bothers to talk about that. Everyone is a POS at one point or another in this trilogy, and, you know what, that keeps ish interesting.) Peter and Harry are best friends. Harry knows Peter has been in love with MJ for an eternity and outright says so in the films. He still decides to pursue a relationship with MJ, which is... not great, but, to make matters worse, he then decides that he'll just hide this from Peter instead of having an honest conversation about it. At this point in the films, MJ doesn't "strongly fancy" Peter; rather, he's a nice guy that she grew up around, but she doesn't see him as a love interest (yet) because he has literally never attempted to shoot his shot. What I will always love about the Raimi films is that all the main characters are afforded the space and dignity to be real, multi-faceted, and flawed with their motivations clearly outlined---even the women; what a concept.

[@Xehanort10]

No. People not liking Raimi MJ doesn't mean they expected her to be perfect. She should have been more than just screaming damsel in distress. In Spider-Man 2 she should have told John she still loved Peter and broken up with him not jilted him on their wedding day.

[@pradeepramtel2695]

i love dunst MJ... we all are flawed and when their is trauma, we tend to overlook our mistakes .

[@emerald3123]

Although I hadn't been the biggest fan of her character in the Raimi movies, your video helped me get more of a complete view of her character. I wish they had delved more into her character as an individual more in the movies including her home life and insecurities. Thank you for making this video.

[@Crazyboy-pu2ub]

"The great thing about MJ is... when you look in her eyes and she's looking back in yours... everything... feels... not quite normal. Because you feel stronger and weaker at the same time. You feel excited and at the same time, terrified. The truth is... you don't know what you feel except you know what kind of man you want to be. It's as if you've reached the unreachable and you weren't ready for it."

[@dylancole1910]

I support the way they characterized her. Yes, some of the choices do frustrate me and like you, I’m not excusing them- OR Peter’s; but what many people claim is a boring, weak, personality-less character is anything but. This analysis was great and one of the reasons why she’s a great character, she’s complex, and you never really know exactly what she wants or what she’s thinking when she says or does things. She has so much more depth than people think she does, people think she’s not edgy enough because throughout the movies there is this base of sweetness to her character that kind of excuses all the things she put herself and Peter through. I think regardless of what the comics portray, Raimi brought a very interesting and compelling element to her that invites discussion because it represents something that real people deal with when it comes to dark upbringings and complicated relationships. Also... I get it man, I’ve had a crush on Kirsten since I was 12 and it hasn’t let up. I still think she’s an amazing and beautiful actress. I’m not ashamed to say that yes, that is part of the reason I defend her, but it’s not the only reason. So MJ haters you can’t come for me!!😂

[@nathanhills336]

“…Almost cheats on Peter Parker…” No, that’s just cheating. An outward display of affection such as kissing with another person while in a relationship is cheating, plain and simple. Also, 2:29-2:55 is perfect. Nuff said.

[@Mildredpotka]

Oh but that's fine that Peter kisses Gwen. That's not cheating

[@davidbjacobs3598]

THANK YOU! I'm so sick of people giving this character and Kirsten Dunst shit.