Improved Battle Plans - A Defense in Depth for the Battle of Winterfell

I analyze the plans for the Battle of Winterfell and offer my own improved strategy based on a defense in depth. In this video I use historical military strategy to offer proper commentary the siege from Game of Thrones Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night".
#GameOfThrones
#ImprovedBattlePlans

[@InvictaHistory]

For those interested, I've published another battle plan analysis for the campaign to defeat Cersei and the Iron Fleet: kzbin.info/www/bejne/o6m1mImql7-Ej68

[@zid3]

Very cool plan, I was unable to watch the episode in one sitting so I may have forgotten details. How much time went by between the fall of the wall and the night kings arrival? Couple they have deployed a plan of this kind? Instead of bickering on who was the rightful heir/ess

[@BelleDividends]

Very excellent plan. Only one question: what if the undead decide to starve you? We've seen hints the living lack the logistics to sustain their huge forces in the north. My solution: defend at a suitable place more to the south, buy you more time for further reinforcements and logistics, while evacuating the whole north and using guerrilla tactics as you mentioned.

[@chiajueiloh5688]

This plan is maybe too good that maybe the Night King can run away for another day. There is also a "wind wall" on the dead's side. Seems not so easy for the hunt.

[@dairallan]

I really don't think they were intending to do a semi-realistic portrayal like they did with the Battle of the Bastards or the Sack of Kings Landing. They used the entire battle as a horror movie set up for the final pay off to deliver an emotional crescendo which realistic battles really don't do. Sometimes art goes for realism, sometimes it just tries to provoke emotion.

[@joshuaplank4001]

I would love to see you do an improved Battle of the bastards. I think Jon would have stood a much better chance if he was smart. I mean he had a giant that could shoot arrows like a ballista and didn't even use him.

[@UGNAvalon]

If the battle went like this, and STILL went poorly, that would’ve properly raised the tension of the whole battle, without making the defenders look like idiots. 🤦‍♂️

[@hijodelsoldeoriente]

I agree.

[@ekulerudamuru]

exactly!

[@kevinpaulmasangkay1689]

Truee! It would be very tense seeing the dead getting close trench by trench

[@necmettinarmutcu3626]

@@kevinpaulmasangkay1689 at least it would make sense

[@Quasimodo-mq8tw]

@Wurzelbert84 wholeheartedly!

[@gromgardenlor]

The winterfell battle was the equivalent of pressing "Auto Resolve" in Total War.

[@NPC-rq9tp]

Lmao so true

[@whocares2087.1]

Ugh, horrible...

[@darkrite9000]

Actually that's not completely accurate, most of the time, if you're going to win in Auto Resolve, the degree by which you win is amazing and in most cases better than a manual battle (unless it's a siege). That is unless we're talking about some of the older total war games, in which case yes, very much like auto-resolve.

[@borntodie297]

Considering which units wiped completely, i'd say this is extremely accurate XD

[@KnafaLover]

PYRRHIC VICTORY: Accuracy Very Low: Remaining forces after: Aggressive 0%, Balanced 13% Defensive 34%

[@hellothere9167]

Forget historians, even a mount and blade player could devise a plan better than this

[@deusvulture5183]

F1 F3

[@mustard4762]

Should've hired a Total War Medieval player to direct the battle

[@elcuh9976]

f1 f2 the cav f1 f1 the archers ona nice clump and f1 f3 once the infantry or horses get close to the archers

[@alphacentauri3069]

Anyone who’s played mount and blade bannerlord for 10 hours knows how to properly position troops

[@marcus4046]

give me almerra castle,a great long axe, rhoduk crossbowmen,veagir archers,and nord huscarls and ill be able to defend against any assault.

[@phillipfilipov540]

winterfell in the books has two layers of walls and a moat in between. winterfell is a formidable castle made puny looking in the show

[@maxdecphoenix]

meh, i don't think Winterfell in either the book or the show is really in a strategically valuable or historically accurate location. On the map it's literally in the middle of a giant plain with no natural border or defensive capacity to it. Compared to the Eyrie, which is a massive fortification on the top of a massive rock protrusion in the middle of a vast serrated outcropping of broken ground, impassible gorges, dead ends, and specific vectors of approach. Winterfell is a completely man-made structure in a field, some hundred miles away from a legitimate water source. Even Edoras in Middle-Earth, exploits a natural defense in the form of a giant rock protrusion; but even they had a harder, fall-back position in Helm's Deep.

[@militustoica]

Winterfell was not in a tactically advantageous position militarily in most ways, but strategically it was roughly the same distance to every great Northern keep and had a hot springs to endure winter sieges better.

[@maxdecphoenix]

@@militustoica a 'hot spring' would not have been able to provide the required water to sustain the daily needs of a holding/village the reported size of winterfell. There's a reason why 99% of humanity has lived and still lives within 50 miles of a coastline or major water way. Remember, a human can live for weeks without food, but they can only live for hours without water. They would have needed a major river or canal just to transport the required supplies to keep the city supplied. wagon trains simply wouldn't have worked. You need water for drinking, cooking, sanitation, and to provide a source for marine proteins and irrigation. They would have needed wells every two feet, and their reservoir would have been tapped 100 years before aegon landed.

[@militustoica]

maxdecphoenix In the first chapters with Cat and Maester Lewyn, Ned thinks about how he gave her a room directly over the warmest channels. It’s used to heat the walls, floors, and wells. Also as a paramedicine student and a former soldier, it’s about 3 days average without water and 6 weeks without food for the average sized person. If the apparently extremely hot Spring (I am happy to admit I know nothing about hot springs besides a correlation between temperature and geothermal heat sources) is used to thaw out the wall we’ve seen in Winterfell as well as then kitchens, barracks, rooms, and other places that need to be kept warm can be comfortable to rotate your soldiers on watch and staff level officers into and out of while the guys outside are freezing solid, that’s a huge attritional advantage.

[@militustoica]

maxdecphoenix As for the supplies, if Winterfell’s famously prepared Stark Lords and subsequent conquerors had even a fraction of sense of the Night’s Watch, they would have an explicitly described 3 year long larder buried underground as Castle Black did. Remember episode 1 of the show?House Stark is the only Great House of Westeros to choose a warning rather than a boast as its words.

[@Echelon030]

"Dragons should provide high-level recon", we just found out that apparently they can't spot a fleet of ships until they're in ballista range.

[@Wolfsbane909]

the dragons don't even have armour dude....maybe don't fight in the dark. can't see anything! LOL

[@calebcone-coleman1688]

Clearly the ships weren’t even there until seconds before firing the bolts. Euron used a classic Iron Islands strategy, 11 warpgate rush with full naval tech

[@gorgimiksa]

@@Wolfsbane909 GRRM always said that shooting a dragon down from the sky is 1 in a million chance of success and the best of them only did it 2 times in all the ASOIAF history... that mofo euron is far from the best

[@JJsmalltime]

Apparently the dragon may survive that shot . You got to get it through the eye to kill it . That's how dorne killed one dragon.

[@Alex-gn6ii]

It would certainly help if they weren't flying so closely to their own fleet and so low to the ground. Can't see shit when your head is below the land covering the Iron Fleet

[@anchuto]

Or you can just use a trebuchet to launch Arya directly at the Night King.

[@imrael781]

Isn't that what they did?

[@anchuto]

Can’t say for sure, but I think she just materialized out of thin air. She said “not today” to the god of death tho, so it makes sense.

[@jmiquelmb]

@@anchuto No, I'm pretty sure she whispered "Nothing personal, kid" to the Night King before killing him

[@photoo848]

Ah, the Lord of the Rings Gambit. Classic

[@35Skele]

You would need pre-nerf Euron to operate the trebuchet.

[@mikestevens3277]

The final season reminded me of writing a 1000 word essay in school. You’re getting in depth telling a story and look down at your word count and realize you’re already at 996 words so you just say “Everyone died. The End.”

[@mortache]

And those 4 words are the last 4 seasons lol

[@bobthebuilder2922]

So true

[@williamclelland5974]

oh my fucking god you are so right

[@yourstruly4817]

1000 word essays in school? The maximum I had to write were 600 words

[@dragonfell5078]

It's such bullshit that schools put in that word limit. It's such a creativity limiter, and when I was a kid who was interested in writing, I remember my dreams being crushed when my English teacher discouraged creativity and just told me to stick within their strict confines. BS.

[@anthony77343]

Imagine if in the battle of Gondor, Gandalf sent out majority of his army outside the wall to battle against the much larger forces of Mordor .

[@carlost856]

They did exactly that, Denethor sent Faramir and their best knights on a suicide charge against the fortified position at Osgiliath. Then again Denethor was supposed to be mad at this point.

[@anthony77343]

@@carlost856 I was referring to the book. In the movie, yeah but Denethor was losing it. In GOT the commanders were sane, supposedly.

[@Warcodered01]

@@anthony77343 Technically they also did it in the book to rescue Faramir and his forces.

[@Sure0Foot]

oh, come on. that would be FUCKIN RIDIC...oh.

[@Telenil]

Well, the difference is that orcs need to eat, while undeads don't. The Night King can't possibly lose a siege, since his troops don't suffer from cold or hunger. It follows that the living *should* offer battle, preferably on some ground they had fortified, while it is *the Night King* who might have anted to keep his troops away and wait until everyone had starved to death.

[@c4nito159]

Ned Stark always said that 500 men could defend Winterfell against 10000... He apparently never explained Jon how

[@Hopesedge]

Jon: "So it can be defended with only 500 men against 10,000... that's incredible." Ned: "Yeah, the secret is placing the artillery behind the--" Jon: "--So incredible, 500 against 10,000... that's gonna be useful for sure."

[@spleen5527]

Moat Cailin, not Winterfell.

[@harry_ord]

@@spleen5527 I suspect it's also against living people not undead fellows who will give up their lives for the ultimate goal.

[@ocharni]

well, i guess that was assuming the attackers dont have giants that just can smash down the door and dragons that bring down the walls.

[@HaganeNoGijutsushi]

@@harry_ord yeah, that's the problem there. With those forces, against 100,000 normal human beings, the battle would have actually been winnable. Defenders have a huge advantage, and the Dothraki alone and their incursions would be devastating for morale of normal people.

[@andrewholdaway813]

_Any_ battle plan would be an improvement.

[@artski09]

no plan would have been an improvement

[@andrewholdaway813]

@@artski09 🤣 so true

[@JoshuaKevinPerry]

Obsidian earrings would have prevented troops from changing sides

[@theghosthero6173]

I really think Obsidian pike such as those used by the pipil of el Salvador would have been a great addition to their ranks, as well as Obsidian tiped arrows. Also, Chinese fire lance and incendiary bombs, explosive fire arrows and rockets or even Greek fire would have been the must have and a real game changer.

[@jesuscruztimagen718]

how about everyone on the field charging with the dothraki?

[@sr7129]

Aka “What Stannis would have done”

[@monarch1993]

D&D fucking hated the character Stannis. just look at the way they killed him off. just hilarious

[@Sashi_Mee]

*knee bending intensifies*

[@begobolehsjwjangan2359]

*book Stannis

[@sonnguyen-ul7gz]

@@monarch1993 nah, DD are just stupid, any kids ever played a simple strategy game can done better

[@fantalasko157]

The one true king

[@Kevin-zz9du]

The best part, is the fact that the Dothraki were originally going to do their derp charge into the pitch black void, until Milisandra showed up lol....

[@samuraitabernac3050]

That’s another reason for wooden defenses, they’d essentially act as booby traps that would cut off the first or second wave that breaks through each line of defense. Personally I would have gone with the much darker plan of collecting everyone who sided with Cersei or refused to fight and used them as human sacrifices. Burn every dead body you can find and pile the skulls like earthwork

[@peskylogicchillinsky6007Futube]

@@samuraitabernac3050 they need to have dragon glass on them

[@V1489Cygni]

With regular steel weapons every commander there knows it won't work on the wights. I think the strategy was to erect a wall of horses around the castle. Here's hopping the enemy can't, you know, reanimate them.

[@YH-lj9gy]

the funniest part of this entire battle is the defenders miraculously only lost 50% of their forces LOL

[@22steve5150]

yeah, we are told that more than 50% of the various forces are dead but it seems to me the number of survivors at the end of that episode looked like it was in the hundreds at best. Hell, I don't even remember seeing any Dothraki return from that ill fated charge, but there 's supposed to be several thousand of them left, and when the NK was killed, it looked like there was only a few dozen defenders left.

[@SithLordmatthew]

It could be true they only lost 50% because they left some of their forces else where to hold the half of the country she did control. But the ones there the losses looked like 95%

[@Incantato]

Exactly. At the end of the battle it seemed like only about 50 people survived. Where the fuck the rest of her army come from? Were they hiding somewhere?

[@nicholasbrown668]

@@Incantato remember alot of the forces hadn't even arrived at Winterfell by the time the battle began only 10k dothraki out of 100k riders had made it up the King's Road

[@mnm8818]

That's pretty good acceptable losses really - Versing the Army of Dead - from the show fighting a Lannister Army is more deadly.

[@dougwong7827]

the writers of GOT certainly don't play totalwar lol

[@lanorothwolf2184]

This battle plan + obsidian earrings so that the fresh casualties cant be reanimated + no plot armor (i'd love to see Daenerys die, bitch is annoying) would make for most epic battle scene ever

[@rodec5]

Total war isn't that good of a presentation of real battlefield tho

[@redblackpaws5947]

Fuck yeah dude!

[@kayprime1967]

They would lose 5 legions to a heard of dears and squirrels in about 5 minutes.

[@KSmithwick1989]

Total War doesn't have deal with production budgets and labor laws. Hence why all the calvary was wiped out as soon as possible. Because the cost of employing that many horsemen during winter. The snow storm was also a ploy to save money for the effects budget. As they don't have to render the background. Notice no one is bring this up. Because discussing budget limitations a less subjective argument.

[@bhaskarp17]

D&D: “We basically see the end of the Dothraki essentially” Greyworm literally an episode later: “hAf aR GoN”

[@beloglavi_supjimmy8446]

Spawn timer :D

[@sulla1537]

They had no idea wtf they were doing. Martin hadn’t gotten that far and their lack of talent didn’t have a mask anymore.

[@Sure0Foot]

YOU DO NOT GET TO SPEAK!! Well, ok, but let me just speak...

[@Lunchbox224]

TRAINING UNIT READY TRAINING UNIT READY TRAI

[@ericcloutier8387]

When I saw the Calvary charge head on into battle, I yelled "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING!!!!!!" at my TV.

[@maxdecphoenix]

When you can't give them good writing, give them a pretty picture to look at.

[@archdruidanban6537]

Pretty sure we all did lol

[@factbeaglesarebest]

Martin, who studied medieval history, would never write that garbage.

[@samuelskogqvist5565]

How can the city where Jesus was crucified charge?

[@OtachiKaiju68]

I think they were looking at Ork tactics

[@seargantmagor]

Here is my improved battle plan: Knowing the new GOT plot armor is so THICC, have all the main fan characters charge into the army of 100,000 undead and defeat them all. Sparing the lives of all the soldiers who did not even need to take part of the battle

[@haoeric6072]

Cutting down the budget in the process so we can have a better farewell for Ghost

[@LordExarKun]

What about putting Bran below the tree, Arya perched on a branch and... that's that.

[@jamesdowning1863]

Brilliant comment.

[@INMATE2468]

or you can just send Arya to kill the whole army cause apparently she can do that with girl power

[@dohnjoe4100]

Now I want a dynasty warriors game for GoT.

[@pennclick]

Wait, do you not immediately sacrifice your entire cavalry for a cool shot? WHY DIDN'T SOMEONE TELL ME

[@proskkywhitestorm5865]

Cause they were sacrificed with the rest of the Calvary

[@georgek2092]

You're everywhere man, history videos, asmr. We have such similar taste

[@JoseSanchez-sd2nv]

I guess I was playing total war wrong this entire time.

[@europeancitizen6375]

Also when they decided to charge out before they knew their swords where going to be on fire

[@europeancitizen6375]

@Lazy Gamer they should get the Darwin award.

[@matheusmagalhaes2293]

While the dothraki army died in five seconds, Samwell Tarly, Jaime Lannister and Jon Snow survived being attacked for more than 10 deads at same time

[@borntohodl2965]

Maybe the dothrakis can't fight in the dark

[@Warcodered01]

They all just probably fell in a hole or something.

[@Sure0Foot]

it's because they didn't cut away from the Dothraki. In Season 8, cutting away from a character in peril is how you save them.

[@robinlinh]

@@Sure0Foot actually they did. They only showed the light get snuffed out but not actual Dothraki death. And in the final episode all Dothraki were at King's Landing as nothing happened.

[@guts9160]

@@robinlinh Lmao and the unsulied got destroyed in the begining and then they are just fine in Kingslanding 🤣

[@alicebrix7332]

This defense plan would've been *much* more exciting to watch! Imagine wave after wave smashing against defense after defense...that would have been an epic battle that would've made both sides seem so much more intense and exciting! Ah, well. :)

[@kenpoarniceguy1]

Basically The Battle of Helm's Deep.

[@jawadad802]

the CGI department was too busy too rewrite their resumes after they read the S8 script

[@Endohell]

it was supposed to be a living tower defense...

[@tristanweber1581]

Remember when the dothraki died during the siege but somehow regained their forces in the next 2-3 episodes.

[@zemljajeravna5336]

Reproduced by mother of dothraki lol

[@kyle433]

Chris McPole nah there was at least 2/3 of the Dothraki force there. Where would they have gone? I would believe that a few hundred could have stayed at Dragonstone along with a few hundred unsullied, as that is all u need to hold Dragonstone. But, Dany definitely brought the majority of her forces to Winterfell.

[@akshaykumarjha9136]

that was some fine fast breeding program initiated by mother of dragons

[@docsherlock3464]

2/3 of dothraki and allmost half of the unsullied were destroyed then how in the name of mother of dragons did they came in such large numbers to celebrate the victory after kings landing was destroyed?!?!

[@knightofsvea604]

There is not even a worth arguing army size in that fucking show, it changed all the time and No Numbers was ever sufficient or ever shown proper. Season 6-8 was just garbage.

[@officerchad1213]

Tyrion: The enemy knows every one of our battle plans Dany: you look surprised Blackadder Blackadder: I certainly am your grace, I didn’t realise we had any battle plans

[@shabaanmarijani8447]

Hahaha... Criminally Underrated comment

[@adamarens3520]

Old Slack Bladder was the best!

[@andrewholdaway813]

Best comment so far 👍🏻🤣

[@brandonlee773]

Tyrion: "It appears the dead outnumber us ten to one." Jon: "Well if that's the case we should probably withdraw behind the walls of the castle..." Tyrion: "Good idea." Jon: "... which is exactly what the Night King would expect us to do and exactly what we shan't do! Place every man outside the walls including the trebuchets and leave the cripple guarding the tree. We'll catch the watchful dead totally off guard!"

[@SuperLusername]

Dany: "But of course we have, how do you think our battles are directed?" Blackadder: "Our battles are directed my Queen?"

[@JC839]

The North’s strategist behind Battle of Winterfell “Jon asked me how well I understood theoretical battle strategy, I told them I had a theoretical degree in battle strategy. They said welcome aboard!”

[@salted6422]

Oh man, that's pretty funny 😂

[@SirFooplesTheThird]

Fantastic idea!

[@StillTheArm11]

Nice New Vegas reference! 😂

[@vonster4255]

But do you know how to aim solar panels?

[@MrKILLINOOBZ]

@@vonster4255 or better yet activate a sweet pre-war laser?!

[@X525Crossfire]

A stripped-down version of my revised plan in a nutshell: 1. Dig a trench, but don't place most of your fighters on the wrong side of it. If you must have them in the field, put them behind the trench so they can benefit from the wight's broken momentum. 2. Inside the walls, landscape the area right in front of the gate into a bottleneck that will be advantageous to your troops. 3. Keep barrels of oil or pitch on top of the walls (thank you Night's Watch for in-show precedent). 4. Send your Dothraki out beyond a hill to the south or east, away from the AotD's projected path, to obscure them from sight. 5. Have Jon and Dany watch the battle from an isolated position and wait for the Night King to appear. 6. If you're going to use Bran as bait, then have skirmishers concealed in the godswood ready to take their shot should the NK appear. 7. When the wights arrive, use catapults to fling burning projectiles at them. If they stand still before trying to cross the trench, have your archers start shooting at them with the appropriate types of arrows - whether dragonglass or flaming. 8. Once the wights commit to crossing the trench, signal the Dothraki to charge (use Bran's flock of ravens). When they hit the AotD, it'll be in their flank, and the path will be lit by the burning trench and the projectiles from earlier, so they won't be charging in blind. Their charge should also slow the flow of wights to the wall, making it easier for your defenders on the wall. 9. As wights start mobbing the walls, drop previously mentioned barrels of oil. 10. If wights break through the gates, have your Unsullied, equipped with dragonglass-tipped spears, waiting in formation. And most importantly - when facing a known necromancer, DON'T PUT YOUR NONCOMS IN THE FUCKING CRYPT!

[@FrostSylph]

Or put them in the crypt but previously open the tombs and either burn or shove an obsidian sliver into the bodies.

[@snappycenter7863]

@@FrostSylph Just make sure said necromancer can't enslave their spirits to fight for him either.

[@archangel6676]

or quite simply DONT HAVE ANY NON COMBATANTS IN THE AREA?

[@Dylunic]

Idk where else the women and children could go, and the crypts have secret escape passageways, so I say burn the bodies.

[@traviswright2648]

All these plans don't matter when 100k zombies just move over you like a wave. Also argue thats impossible cause we get seen that happens to the Unsullied. Also the dead literally just crawled underneath or over it the trenches they made. Also the dead literally dog piled in seconds. The problem with people saying that they could even hold the fort for a couple hours is the most far fected idea. Also they can just summon a blizzard to block eye sigh and boom Wave of undead. Even if your traps could hold hundreds of dead there's still thousands dead just casually running over them after they are filled. Then they casually bust through the remaing defensive cause we have been shown that the dead can break through log walls. Some of the dead are skeletons too BTW. Then the shield wall or anything just get swarm.

[@Cadrieldur]

*Ser Davos:* Excellent plans, your grace, but what will we do about the Dothraki raping and pillaging the North when the dead are gone? *Jon:* Don’t worry, I’ve got it figured out.

[@shorewall]

Two Birds, meet stone. :D

[@prettygurlrockx]

😂😂😂

[@jerkov420]

Funny, but this was another person's comment on another video

[@charlottereid1752]

Where you see rapists, I see doctors, engineers and rocket scientists

[@forcanisso1639]

@@charlottereid1752 sounded like some racist whistlin, and sure enough i was right. Little nazi baby.

[@lelouche25]

Jon: let's put our scorpions and trebutchet in front of our infantrymen. Guy:...uhmm my lord Jon: Winter is here. Guy: yes, but...the artillery. Jon: this a fight for survival. Guy: yes I understand that, but maybe our artillery can just move back- Jon: We need to build a trench around winterfell. Guy:oh okay, that helps if we get our men- Jon: the trench needs to be small enough to allow only a handful of men to run between. Maybe six men a breast at most. Guy:what? Trenches are meant to be behind- Jon: then the dothraki will charge the center. Guy:...you're not listening to me are you? Jon: This it, the final battle between the living and the dead Guy: I'm not even here am I? Jon: now our final watch begins Guy: were gonna die here.

[@jwurnig]

At least the show has done a good job setting up the fact that Jon is a complete idiot. It really should not be a surprise at this point that he doesn't know anything.

[@Pbdave1092]

Only one load per artillery. Winter is coming.

[@martinnordlund5237]

Robb is rolling in his grave

[@m.m.5448]

Thats prolly the longest youtube comment ive ever read. I laughed. Cheers

[@generalharness8266]

@@Pbdave1092 not only that but lets only fire it when we have troops in the field.

[@jimsty5222]

Needlessly sacrificing 10,000 Dothraki calvary for a beautiful but extremely brief visual was the dumbest thing I've ever seen produced on this show... The existence of Daenery's dragons was more realistic than the thought of a bunch of experienced generals and soldiers coming together and agreeing on that asinine and nonsensical move.

[@notribadsvault]

Not to mention the fact that Dothraki are supposed to be horse archers, which the showrunners completely forgot the second George wasn’t there to make the writing actually good.

[@kaiserreich2315]

If the Romans saw this, they would've probably would've went 4th wall against them.

[@mamadu1968]

gramatic at its finest

[@jeffthemercenary]

Literally every general will do that

[@5892bootsmas]

I don’t understand do you mind explaining “4th wall”?

[@kaiserreich2315]

@@5892bootsmas 4th wall is basically what separate the viewer and fiction/movie, so in this case, the romans would be going in the world of GoT to shit on the allies for being so trash.

[@EidolonSpecus]

Which romans, though? Illiterate peasants from 600 CE, the last emperors of Constantinopolis near the time of the European renaissance, or the handful of historically-famous late-antiquity people from around 200 BCE to 60 CE who are really over-represented and lived in basically just 15% of the more-than-a-millenia of the Roman Republic and Empire(s) existence?

[@danielveres4351]

This was amazing. Unfortunately their original battle strategy was to get rid of the overpowered forces of Daenerys as quickly as possible, so there can be some more drama about how to defeat Cersei.

[@rezkalla]

Arya can put on a different face and kill Cersei easily. Or Bran can have a bunch of eagles to it. Done. The show is basically over except they won't do either of these.

[@MoffatLee]

@@rezkalla Why didn't they just fly the eagles to the land of always winter... and have them scratch the night king with dragonglass tipped claws.

[@rezkalla]

@@MoffatLee Mind blown

[@doc.rankin577]

They did this but it's a really lazy way of writing a scene out. Honestly you can give 2 military consults an hour to come up with a battle plans, and just say overwhelming attrition did the North in and you'd be fine.

[@SBVCP]

DIdnt you heard? Cerseid dies when she see the kinglsayer kiss the fierce knight-maid (Brienne) and trips hittin her head on the incredible hard butt of the dead mountain

[@samalheid6630]

Better plan: 1. send Bran on a carriage to the undead army 2. have Arya hide on it 3. nothing personnel night king 4. profit

[@saultorres8125]

Savage! sounds like a sansa plan ;) hahaha

[@noeescobar4640]

Made lol but the undead army has no reason to ake bran the night king and why not kill him there. And i doubt the night king needs any more kings blood

[@brendandever8532]

@@noeescobar4640 Then why did the night king try to kill Bran himself at the end of the episode? He obviously wanted to be the one to kill him, so actually this plan might have actually worked.

[@mihadono]

after touching bran, night king put him on his magic radar. faces dont fool him.

[@IcoKirov]

@@brendandever8532 he wanted to kill bran himself because of plot reasons...

[@mountcrushmore566]

Remember when Theon said that Ned Stark always said that a 100 men could hold Winterfell against 10000?? But apparently 25-30000 men can’t stop an army of 100000 zombies!!!

[@chairianariq6721]

Its a different thing, this 100.000 army has no feel for cold, no need for food and drink, and it have no fear

[@mountcrushmore566]

@@chairianariq6721 True. But they also didn’t have weapons, siege equipment or any fancy weaponry for that matter. Also the defending force was 10000 strong.

[@aztecgoji]

If Ned was alive he would've undoubtedly came up with a better strategy than what was shown. Probably would've decimated the undead army

[@tayduatrinhcoi]

@@mountcrushmore566 They have a huge ice dragon and 12 super soldiers they can make undead soldiers as we know. With what they have, they can still overcome this improve battle plan.

[@SeaSerpentLevi]

Painful The nort apparently dont remembers all that much 🤪

[@JAGexRK]

The long night never should have been a single episode, but since they did, they needed to make their own Helms Deep. They had a great opportunity to do so, but they discarded it for flashy CGI and subversive expectations.

[@Sure0Foot]

and shitty lighting

[@philpants44]

CGI no one could see lol

[@coronavirus5134]

*Sun Tzu rolling in his grave after seeing episode 3*

[@alexandrubodnar5914]

Oh God ... With half the man he will drink some wine and chill while they win

[@TheLoongsiu]

Sun Tzu will beg Night King to resurrect him so he can kill whoever the fuck wrote this plot.

[@c1000101c]

Rolling in his grave? Or punching his way out of his crypt - through stone and concrete?

[@bmbm1]

Yes I am

[@cliftonfameree4436]

@@bmbm1 Fucking beautiful.

[@FckPooTN]

My battleplan would be: Tie dragonglass arrow tips on some raven heads. Let Bran fly them into the Night King like Kamikaze RC-Planes!

[@Wolfsbane909]

Why not do that with the suicidal cav charge, just shot an fire arrow at the cav and boom, its a suicidal charge anyways..

[@949surferdude]

That's pretty genius oh wait Bran is quite useless.

[@StoneMason103]

Underrated genius idea

[@userduo]

Why can’t bran warg into Cersei and have her jump off a roof or slice her own throat?

[@sashabonnie987654]

This was a meme the day after episode 3 came out. Don't pretend you didn't see the meme and try and play it off as your own idea

[@LordBloodraven]

Biggest mistake of the show's final line of defense in the Godswood was the Karstarks leaving to investigate a noise they heard. That's like saying "I'll be right back" in an 80s horror film.

[@476megaman]

The Dothraki mounted archers should have been equipped with dragonglass arrows. they could ride around the force of wights and go directly for the white walkers in the rear. That would maximize the damage to the enemy.

[@diegoderiverabyrne6557]

There is a problem with that, visibility, away from the castle fires, there was black pitch darkness. You cant surround an enemy army if you cant see how far that army extends. It was possible that the only way to do that was going thru the woods around Winterfell, and you can imagine how dangerous would be to ride at high speed, without light (even with moon light) the snow covering the rocks and roots of the trees, more dothraki would die from falling than to the undead. (sorry for my bad english)

[@476megaman]

@@diegoderiverabyrne6557 That's a good point that I didn't consider. I didn't consider the 'on the ground' conditions. Funny, these are the types of discussions they should have had at the battle plan scene in GoT.

[@ollieholden333]

The show runners weren’t that smart though

[@Goblinshaman]

ARTILLERY IN THE FRONT LINE!? my god the total war in me cringing.

[@winjiro106]

Sun Tzu, Napoleon, Genghis Khan, Carolus Rex crying in their graves

[@crazyrabitbob5891]

Got that same feeling...

[@mattfoulgerBC]

And amazingly, the one or two volleys the artillery gets off are perfectly ranged and coordinated to support the cavalry charge... even though they had no idea where the wights were. Like a perfectly executed late-WW1 artillery barrage where the defenders get hit just before the attacking infantry arrive. How the hell could they do that against a non-fixed target in the dark? It was their one combined arms tactic in the entire battle and it was both totally unrealistic and totally ineffectual at the same time. Then the artillery just stops.

[@mr.c.3760]

obviously the show writers should have done their research and played a couple of age of empires/total war quick battles

[@falahati]

It was about the budget. Artillery in the show is basically CG.

[@Toto-95]

"reanimated peasants with knifes cut through plates like butter" ok i laughed :D

[@Thorr97]

Yeah, you also gotta wonder about the "physics" involved. Seriously. The Undead Army is composed of... corpses. Even in the cold of the north they're still rotting as they stand there. So here they are running at armored human troops. On screen they were depicted as being like some superhuman, superstrong, superpowerful tide that could knock everything over in its path. Um, no. If anything, that large a mass of Undead would be tripping over themselves and each other if they tried moving any faster than a shambling forward. They'd most likely bounce of of armored troops.

[@SuperNugget92]

@@Thorr97 magic

[@wanttogetfood]

butterknives

[@Alexrayioons]

@@Thorr97 they're not just corpses, some of them are skeletons without any muscles, so I think you should not think of them as their former human equivalent, but as magicly boosted pawns

[@Powerofriend]

@@Alexrayioons I wish there was lore to back this up. :c

[@toetert]

I believe the best strategy would have bin to kick D&D of the team and write a whole new script for the season ...

[@MandaloreTheReclaimer]

Your enemy is allergic to fire so why wasn't there fire everywhere?

[@andreweades6248]

Because everytime they lit a fire it was put out save for the massive flaming trench. Other than that the sheer coldness in the air doused all other flames

[@MandaloreTheReclaimer]

@@andreweades6248 the trebuchets launched fire balls just fine they didn't go out, the trench lit just fine when melisandre did it because the plot needed it too. Why not light it immediately after you see the undead army?, why not make multiple trenches with wooded stakes to light on fire and stay behind them and use them as defense?. Season 8 was horse shit and the atrocious battle tactics played a major part.

[@eibbor171]

its funny how tyrion forgot he had that greenfire i forget what they called it in the show but that stuff would've been great they couldve picked some up while they were in kings landing

[@gizmo3846]

I mean, everybody is allergic to fire... Lmao

[@carlost856]

@@eibbor171 Like Cersei would even admit to having any leftover after the terrorist attack on the sept of Baelor, let alone just give all of her most powerful weapon to an enemy.

[@ForTehNguyen]

we're fighting a necromancer lets hide in the crypts!

[@SilmarPlaysBGs]

To be honest, the wights have gone from having human strength and not being able to get out of a wooden box (the one in which they kept the wight they brought to King's Landing) to punching their way out of a stone sarcofagus. All that should have happened should have been some scratching noise from inside.

[@mrfreeman2911]

In the books the Stark dead are buried with iron bolts or something like that. to stop this kind of thing. Read it ages ago

[@etheldir128]

When i heard that, I assumed there must be wards or something to stop this happening. SURELY they must know something we don't, because otherwise it'd be a stupid idea. Nope, it was just a stupid idea. Also, what happened to jon spouting off about every woman needs to fight too?

[@mrfreeman2911]

@@etheldir128 the show makers care more about drama then story. It is longer the books. I knew the dead would rise in the crypts as that's what a bad writer would do. In the books the wouldn't as the Starks bury their dead traditionally I believe due to be as old as the nightking. Starks built the wall too. Been a while since I read the books, so people can correct me if wrong.

[@if6was929]

@@mrfreeman2911 "the show makers care more about drama then story" the two are not mutually exclusive, its not like its never been done before! The writers are either not talented enough or they are lazy. One thing is sure, they don't respect the viewers.

[@Anonymos185]

Everyone: Jon, your plan lead to the death of every single Dothraki! Jon: Yeah lol, but didn't they look cool tho?

[@kaymanul]

Best reply for me!

[@frankharr9466]

Was that the idea maybe?

[@jac_o7]

Frank Harr no it was to git rid of a pricey expense by the directors

[@nickwolf6544]

Jon: I did it for the budget!

[@duploman1000]

also the reason we put the non combatants in the crypt

[@ParallelMango]

The Game of Thrones approach to the battle was like your playing an RTS you get up to go to the bathroom and your kid starts smashing on the keyboard and moving the mouse around... Once you get back from the bathroom you realize you hadn't saved the game to restart the battle and are left with a glass cannon to try to kill the boss...

[@TT-rq3so]

That episode was a case of someone having such a high reputation, that no one could tell them their idea(s) were trash.

[@SirClerihew]

I'm surprised that the US military doesn't equip every soldier with plot armor. They'd be so OP.

[@iLoveLamp222]

Marines! Line up for weapons and cryptic foreshadowing!

[@12345678900987659101]

If only the Germans had plot armor while fighting on the Eastern Front.

[@luscinius2933]

@@12345678900987659101 Wouldn't help. Soviet plot armor is the plottiest plot armor of all plot armors.

[@classarank7youtubeherokeyb63]

"What the hell is this, private?!" "Sir, it's a picture of my wife, son, or daughter, sir!" "ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND, SOLDIER? THIS OBJECT WILL GUARANTEE YOUR TRAGIC DEATH NEAR THE FINAL ACT! FIND SOMETHING THAT WOULDN'T MAKE A MEMENTO FOR ONE OF YOUR SURVIVING COMRADES!" "Sir, yes sir!"

[@Mikeztarp]

@@classarank7youtubeherokeyb63 "And don't you DARE talk about your plans for after the war, private!"

[@amirkeren82]

All you need to win: 1) bran waiting under the tree 2) arya hiding in its branches... The rest can wait in the south...

[@hasinurrahman6317]

Youre my general.

[@jbvalentin854]

She wasn’t in the tree she was hidden as a white walker

[@redapple360]

well he need good boi Reek ummm i mean Theon.

[@jbvalentin854]

Fyropyro420 yeh it’s rly subtle I wouldn’t have noticed if it wasn’t for the red woman saying she would take blue eyes. You see a white walker(Arya) begin to move just before the NK dies

[@__-yz1ob]

Not without plot armor though

[@snappycenter7863]

Though I want the heroes to win, for fun I'll do an improved tactics plan for the villains: 1. Send faster troops ahead to scout the enemy defenses (undead animals, mounted zombies or Others/White Walkers), and hinder the construction crews as much as possible. 2. Summon that blizzard - assuming the blizzard is a short-term one-shot like depicted in the show - to weaken the living troops and provide concealment as the undead troops advance. 3. Raise slain enemy soldiers (plus any animals they use) as much as possible. 4. Night King must stay mounted on his undead dragon for as long as possible. 5. If hunting Bran, use a force led by lieutenants (group of zombies and a couple of Others/White Walkers) to hunt him and kill him. 6. If Bran's ravens are encountered, burninate them with the undead dragon. 7. Use freshly-raised enemy dead as fodder for ranged attacks (also psychological weapon via enemy dealing with dead friends and family attacking them) 8. Send some Others/White Walkers to kill enemy leaders or officers. 9. As wights approach and start climbing the walls, Night King should use undead dragon to strafe the walls. 10. If wights break through the gates, have your Unsullied, equipped with dragonglass-tipped spears, waiting in formation.

[@leonpaelinck]

Or kill Bran the same way he killed Vyserion.

[@leramar]

You put way more thought into this than anyone on the show did.

[@HardBassManiac]

Plot armour was so strong, even Sean Bean would have survived the battle

[@christophershirk6482]

I wouldn't say that. The only way Sean Bean would have survived the Battle of Winterfell would have been if he had been in Dorne at the time.

[@NOL1FEK1NG]

HAHAHAHAAHAHA :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[@Dark-wy9yb]

@@christophershirk6482 I would' t say that. Dorne is dangerous for little girls... and Sean Bean 😂. No one could defend him there.

[@roguishpaladin]

@@Dark-wy9yb Hey, Eddard SURVIVED his one trip to Dorne.

[@Dark-wy9yb]

@@roguishpaladin But Sean Bean wasn' t young Eddard. It is the reason why😂.

[@TrollLulCats]

every military unit wears a dragonglass earring - impossible to raise the dead. EZPZ

[@tesso.6193]

i'm actually impressed with this haha

[@ManSeekingMeaning]

This is pretty genius...

[@MrKernkraft4000]

Not going to lie, this is a pretty impressive idea.

[@albertphan4111]

Genius

[@ankithnair]

I am recreating the show and you are hired..👍

[@joebloniarz4268]

I remember two things right off the bat that bugged me while watching that battle. They sent their dathraki cavalry in first when they couldnt even see ....personally I would waited till they were attacking the walls and have them attack from the sides or rear. Which would of gave them more time to fire their trebuchehs ....i cant spell. And second was the trying to light the trench with a arrow on a windy ass battle field. What you need is a crazy dude with a torch lol cough helms deep cough lol

[@johansmallberries9874]

When you let the guy who "knows nothing" plan your battle.

[@JBrander]

Dothraki: FLAMING BLADES!! WOOO!!! CHAAAAARGE!! Jorah: Hol up, I didn't give the command to charge Dany: Did you tell them to charge? Jon: I thought you did.

[@brokensky2378]

they wouldn't be charging if they weren't in front of everyone else. Troops that are hard to control when they see the enemy should be kept out of line of sight until they're needed.

[@MrWassup45]

@Lazy Gamer hense the keep them out of line of sight part

[@RandomFlyingPotato]

@Lazy Gamer Wanting to die in battle does not mean being suicidal the second you enter a battle. Immediately dying to the dead would be seen as an incredibly dishonorable death.

[@RexOedipus.]

@Lats Niebling What happened there was miscommunication. "Charge those guns" they thought it was the guns further away not the one nearer. Tho both dont have enough infantry to protect them

[@ineffigy8628]

@Lazy Gamer I think you're exactly right. I think it's silly to believe that the dothraki would have done anything other than charge. I mean, it shocked me for a moment when they did, I was like hey guys no, no-one gave that order. But their whole culture is focused around this kind of aggressive viking mentality where dying a glorious death is enough of a goal in life. We don't want them to die because we've grown to know and like the dothraki, so we hate on the idea that they would do this because we are emotionally invested in them. But we are emotionally invested in them because of good story telling. If you focus on the characters and the culture conveyed in the story, it doesn't make sense in the story for the dothraki to not charge. This was all on point story telling in my mind.

[@slyscott1430]

Thanks to you- I managed to use alot of your ideas to help aid my group and character's home in a dnd game. Where I was caught in a position to command and general defenses, attacks, and etc. Where we won! Using your lessons as inspirations.

[@IsengardMordor]

After 4 years i am here once again and i have to thank you . This is the video that introduced me to your channel and the awesome historical content you have been making ever since. Your videos taught me about stuff i even never thought about before and details i was not aware of things i have known before. Again, thank you very much

[@evenessa]

The writers should have played a round of plants vs zombies at least, before making this plan . Palmface

[@sammy-zo6sl]

Hahahaha...that's what I thought

[@andrewpackham8236]

Shame the Unsullied didn't have any wall-nuts hehe

[@jeffreysamson5938]

Wow haha

[@Kenshin_2]

@@andrewpackham8236 wall nuts are op

[@ukuviispert9599]

@S F NK cant see the future though

[@billdunne4625]

the worst excuse to come out for this episode was that they were trying to make things seem hopeless. All they did was make it frustrating. nothing would have achieved a sense of hopelessness as well as watching a carefully crafted, well executed battle plan be slowly but surely destroyed in the face of an enemy as unrelenting as death personified. but it sure did look cool.

[@ineednochannelyoutube5384]

They said they were paying homage to Helm's deep. Well, what you say is exactly what happens at Helm's deep. Seems like they didnt pay attention.

[@davidhussey524]

As soon as they said the battle was a homage to Helms Deep I immediately cringed and nearly died of laughter with my brother while watching the episode like it felt like they were trying to disrespect the lord of the rings the twin towers

[@Witters_]

Would've had more impact having a well executed plan, but be entirely overwhelmed nevertheless. It wouldn't left an impression of: We played our best hand and it still wasn't enough.

[@charlesparks9011]

@@Witters_ Absolutely! The GoT battle plan was inept, worthy of Braxton Bragg. A sensible defense in depth, slowly crushed by weight of numbers, would have been much more emotionally wrenching, rather than watching Westeros "experts" make basic defensive mistakes.

[@No_MatCh00]

Cannot agree more, nothing is more hopeless than seeing your perfectly crafted battle plan shatter in the face of a tsunami of undead.

[@derekqueen667]

This was an excellent analysis/battle plan. I had no idea there would be this much in depth thought when I clicked on the vid. Keep up the quality content! 👍

[@thehighguarduk4820]

This was well discussed and explained, a much better battle plan that actually made sense. Nicely done.

[@windosa2006]

Someone should make a game called "How I would do it". In which it simulates a WhiteWalker attack and you are to set up your Winterfell defense. Everytime a strategy worked the game takes a screenshot of the successful formation and it automatically get tweeted to Benioff and Weiss with the caption "Like this for example you idiots".

[@tjay45]

Someone should get onto this

[@masayukitachibana2756]

Total War with mod should do it. Send the record too

[@MrQhuin]

There's a game like that and it's called battle simulator

[@witchsorrowful1918]

This is an excellent idea

[@sparkyAR]

12:56 the drawing of Bran´s crows dropping Arya from the sky really got me!

[@neto5928]

Oh! That how she "jumped" that inhuman distance. Now that actually it makes sense !

[@SmigGames]

Haha! I missed that. I had to go back and pause. That explains a lot...

[@lordmorgoth7]

Actually Bran warging into crowsnto drop obsidian stones from really high is a great idea. In WWII they used small metal.objects and simply drop them from a plane, devastating damage

[@kiendn]

@@neto5928 Joking aside, on set they used a crane, I heard. That jump just weren't humanly possible for someone her size.

[@meisterproper8304]

Harbinger that was ww1 and it wasn't very effective

[@thesandboxbandit3838]

Crazy thing is I'm sure you would've volunteered your war consultation for free and made the show so much better.

[@codycampbell3562]

I watched this with my dad. When the Dothraki charged I started yelling at them as if they were my own men. Played enough Total War and M&B to know that calvary are used to flank. My dad kept telling me to shut up but when the torches went out he understood that I had understood the situation immediately. Afterwords he asked me what I would've done differently, which was odd because he has never been into military tactics, but I was more than happy to give him a rough summary. I am proud to say Invicta and I both thought the same way except I said to use the Dothraki to attack the Whites also via cycle charges.

[@criert135]

But surely attacking the whites would always be a futile enterprise? The Night King would just resurrect them again after every Dothraki charge and there would be no chance of routing them, any dead Dothraki would join their ranks. The best strategy in this situation would surely be an ambush specifically targeted against the Night King. Anything directly targeting the whites would only result in bolstering their ranks and should just be used as a distraction

[@Zazume_]

On the field: Dothraki: Woah, we have flaming swords! Let's charge! Jorah: What? Guys, why are you charging?! Nobody told you to do so! On the wall: Sansa: Wait, did we tell them to charge? Arya: I don't think so... At the side of the battlefield: Daenerys: Didn't you tell them about the actual battle plan?! Jon: I thought you did! At Winterfell's tree: Theon: We are screwed, right? Bran: But it looks beautiful.

[@grproteus]

On the frontline: Leeeeeeeroyyyy Jeeeeenkins!

[@AllAboutFaylan]

Prot Eus Only thing I would change: *Bran: I‘m going to go now

[@TurkeyMaze]

Actaully, Jorah drew his sword and told them to charge. The Dothraki respect Jorah - odd you'd think they'd charge without him.

[@ritterrvr2381]

@@TurkeyMaze maybe he meant to charge his cellphone? 😂

[@jaxanarchy4931]

I think the plot was melisandre sacrificed them to the lord of light would ve been more convincing

[@bami2]

7 seasons: winter is coming 1 stab later: well that's it, pack it up boys

[@Hopesedge]

"But you said winter could last years in the stories you told---" "ye, but we had a stabby boi"

[@TheDantheman12121]

1 stab? Did you not see the whole battle before it?

[@Marine1x1]

@@TheDantheman12121 u dumb?🤦‍♂️🚀

[@isaiahmatthewaraneta7498]

Ambrose Nope, I literally couldn’t see the battle, was too darn dark

[@MrAeRoZz]

well.. when he dies he dies.. changes nothing about 7 seasons before that

[@anthonylivesay6358]

It reminded me of the Battle of Five Armies in the Hobbit movie The Desolation of Smaug. No strategy.

[@jacencade4019]

Yeah but in the hobbit that actually makes sense. All those forces collided onto eachother. In this they made a plan to make a final stand here and their tactics were just awful. Almost as if trying to be incompetent.

[@Warcodered01]

@@jacencade4019 lulling him into a false confidence so he'd expose himself?

[@rrgale55]

This is a great analysis. Well done!! Something I'd like to add would be to deploy special units of men out in the forest where the Nightkings army approaches from. Hide them in pits, or trenches or maybe in the trees very well hidden. Then they wait for the army of the dead to pass under/over them, depending on where they are hiding. After the dead pass by, they break from cover and attack the White Walker Generals from behind killing them which in turn destroys any undead soldiers that are linked to them. We saw what happened when they killed one of the generals in the attempt to capture an undead soldier to bring to Kings Landing. All the dead soldiers linked to that General instantly died. Or, have them circle around behind the dead army on horses and do the same thing; attack the Generals from behind.

[@oakmontow1343]

Drogon can burn down a whole city with a million citizens and also dodge giant bolts shot from like 50 scorpions but not burn 100,000 undead whytes and dodge ice spears hurled at him?

[@independentvariable2044]

D&D: Drogon can't see clearly at night

[@Renesh2]

@@independentvariable2044 That's actually reasonable given that birds of prey can't see for shit in the dark, and reptiles go torpid in the cold. I'd assume the dragons are warm-blooded, so the birds would be the better comparison. The problem is that they did actually have the dragons fight at night. If they wanted to say dragons can't see at night, the dragons should have resisted going up at all. Given that they apparently didn't, the logical explanation is that they can see just fine. But hey, who needs consistency or logic when you can have ~*~SPECTACLE~*~

[@GhilleVeteran00]

@@Renesh2 They would have to fight at night regardless. They were the only defense against Viserion. Viserion doesn't have to worry about being able to see, he is controlled by the Night King through his power.

[@auroraourania7161]

I mean, a city actually burns, snow covered ground doesn't. Think of how it is in Attila and 3K Total War, where flaming shot for catapults doesn't do that much unless they're in tall grass or a forest. If they are, it's devastating, but if they aren't, it's no more effective than regular projectiles.

[@ryanlorenzo5003]

He forgot he could do that.

[@paranormaljo]

Jon Snow at the tactical meeting said.."we can't beat them in the straight fight".. And yet,still sending dothraki riders into the pitch black battle..

[@phennexion]

lolol

[@phennexion]

writers must hate their bosses

[@nothajzl]

Nobody send them. Did you see anyone give an order? The way i saw it: Dothraki said “f it we gona rush b, our swords r glowing lel”

[@RectumPunch]

@@nothajzl They definitely said that.

[@aniucha4]

recoon with combat or ......... any other use for light cav vs unlmited enemy?

[@vincentdamienarneo369]

Back when this episode aired live for the first time I remember my group of friends and my family who had been watching this show religiously from I believe the end of season 1 spent about 3 to 4 hours arguing over how the allied forces should have went about the defense much better than what was done in the show. My idea was remarkably close to your plan only with an extra outer line and building blockade points within the walls to cause the dead to have to funnel through tight kill zones down narrow and easily defended lanes leading deeper into the city and keep which would also have been greatly fortified prior to the actual battle. We all agreed that every able bodied man woman and child would take part in the defense in some way shape or form, not hiding underground in the crypto waiting to be slaughtered if the living lost anyway. The hardest part of devising a solid and much better plan was the elite strike team to take out the night king as I could really only think of Jon and dany atop their dragons being the only ones who'd stand any real chance in accomplishing this. Together their odds aren't exactly terrible with 2 against 1 plus danys dragon was the largest and strongest of the three too. The one thing that I was unsure of was the other white walkers, not the night king. If each one of them died would that cause a large junk of the dead army to fall immediately? That was the impression I was under as I was pretty sure it wasn't just the night king who controlled every single dead soldier but each of his dozen or so white walker generals were directly connected to large portions of the army too. If this was the case which again I'm almost positive Jon saw first hand previously then a sizable but small enough force of dothraki cavalry armed with dragon glass weapons could flank around the dead army after they had already charged all the way to the city and had been engaged leaving the white walkers somewhat alone or lightly, possibly completely unguarded, which the ambushing dothraki could then charge and hopefully completely take out. If that happens wouldn't nearly the whole dead army just collapse on the spot leaving whatever dead are attached to the night king only? Correct me if I'm wrong in that assumption but that would cause a pretty fast and easy victory with very light casualties. Not great for dramatic tv but if we're talking realistic this seems like a homerun plan to me

[@Tsagia]

Excellent,excellent video! Well done! I agree with almost all of the parts,basically that's how it should have been done. Although I'd use the Dothraki in a flanking maneuvre when the enemy almost entered the castle,to surround them and hit them from behind or just draw their attention and maybe get some of them to go after the Dothraki.

[@rainningstorm]

Summary: Cavalry was not used effectively. Artillery was not used effectively. Dragons were not used effectively. Infantry was not used effectively. Defensive advantage was not used effectively. Only thing done well in this battle, undead army.

[@theETSIE]

The night king did a perfect battle plan and yet he lost😥😥😥 he will be remembered...

[@prinstyrio0]

I wouldn't say perfect or done well, he seemed to fail to encircle the castle instead of funneling all undead in the front, and his bodyguard was completely incompetent, one noticed Arya but didn't act. That said, the defenders used one thing effectively; main characters and their plot armor!

[@tequillaaa]

no undead army could have done a lot better too, they outnumbered them really hard but didn't surround them they could easily have half their forces keep the humans busy while flanking the castle breaching the weaker defenses they just didn't have to do anything tactical since they outnumbered them so hard and every casualty to the enemy is another one to top on that number

[@GodToaster]

*Dragons were not used effectively.

[@BelegCuthali0n]

So what you say is that no-one was used effectively... see what I did there? ;)

[@basedboi3956]

6:04 “reanimated peasants with bread knives cut through plate armor like butter” lmao

[@ciuyr2510]

Alec Dalton and dragon scales, easy to pierce cause you know, dragons are soft & cuddly. ... . yeah.... .... soft... warm....moist..

[@SantomPh]

They swarm over the soldiers and stab them through the gaps in armor. The Unsullied do not even wear armor other than helmets.

[@basedboi3956]

SantomPh SantomPh true, but go watch the clip of Ser Jorah getting stabbed with ancient iron weapons straight through his plate armor

[@Bow165]

@@SantomPh The unsullied wear leather armour. I challenge you to have a go at stabbing through leather with a good steel blade, let alone a rusted kitchen knife. There's a reason leather armour was used historically: it worked.

[@kiendn]

@@Bow165 Jorah wore plate armour. It worked fine in previous seasons, but not in this battle.

[@kingverum1685]

I can’t believe I only just discovered your channel. Brilliant.

[@deaconfrost5935]

The first three minutes of analysis was absolutely worthy of an entire season, would have removed plot armour, developed relationships, gave us more of the landscape to see, battles and combat sequences that made way more sense, I mean fuck Hot Pie could have been followed as he evacuated south, The Eyrie and Knights of the Vale, all the savage tribes from season 1 (the mountain tribes) etc the free folk, nights watch, stormland soldiers, Nymeria, a Caitlyn Tully return as Lady Stoneheart with bannerless spies and the brotherhood, so much available goodness

[@goorahdemi9621]

Imagine if the Night King just didn't show up.

[@Nickademas1]

Expectations subverted

[@patrickkenyon2326]

Night King sipping hot toddies on the North Pole while the army of dead conquers the world...makes too much sense for Georgie Martin.

[@patrickkenyon2326]

@@onetwo57627 Fair enough. I thought George was a better writer than that.

[@patrickkenyon2326]

@@onetwo57627 I haven't read Ice and Fire, but back in the day George wrote some very good stories.

[@zhengyangxiao7943]

imagine they didnt went on that zombie hunt and gave away a dragon

[@moonboy5851]

My plan would be to load Bran into a catapult and deliver him directly to the Night King.

[@waleedmukhtar2925]

LOL

[@yemekhaneikiyirmibes5951]

@pAtRiCk StAr ahahahaa

[@parkerhall9412]

That was my meme on twitter

[@Catubrannos]

It's never explained why Bran dying is a bad thing. He's the keeper of memories or somesuch but why is that important? Why should we care?

[@thorbenlockenvitz3686]

Arya on Rhaegal instead of John, ready to jump off the dragon and jump on Viserion to kill both

[@joeconte8475]

Remember when the show made sense? I miss that

[@sumtingwog1273]

0:40 Campaign Analysis 3:05 Battle Plan Analysis 8:35 New Proposed Battle Plan

[@newclouds544]

Only problem with your plan is that it makes sense.

[@Alan14cool]

Lmao

[@fenrirgg]

No it doesn't and I'll tell you why: They had a couple of days for preparing an entire set of dragonglass weapons for thousands of soldiers. They didn't have time for a palisade that massive. Also the army of the dead can attack by the other side, there was nothing preventing it.

[@giorga33332]

@@fenrirgg still , they could use dothraki more wisely and siege weapons as well

[@fenrirgg]

@@giorga33332 Yes, but I think they wanted the dothraki to seek and kill the dead army generals as soon as possible, also they send them blindly ignoring the fact that they had artilley tha they could use to fire torches on the enemy's side to see the enemy better.

[@HungPham-qq6me]

fenrirgg days are enough to set up small barricades around the castle given the population residing in the castle. Days are enough to force civies into making dragonglass tips for spears and arrows. Days are enough for dothraki cavs to scout enemy’s movement in anticipation of where would be hit hardest. Days to make sure the siege weapons can actually be used more than once. And while it is no where near enough for a full fledged entrenched position offered, at least a better strategist would have used the archers better.

[@DrGeneralkumar82]

Let's think about how the undead could have done better... 1) start with the storm to blind the enemy 2) attack from all directions not just the front 3) night king carries extra ice spears with him and hunts the other 2 dragons in the storm and shoot them out of the air Or turn on the storm and wait a month, 90% of the enemy will starve and die, especially the calvary. Place the undead troops in defensive positions south of winterfell to stop reinforcements, supplies, and retreat

[@rippercubed86]

This would have been a great plan. They're dead, they have no reason to rush. Just surround the city and starve them out. They did it all the time back in the day.

[@AV57]

Yeah, in season 1 i thought they spoke of “Winter” as just a really fucking cold weather front that lasted a really long time. Ok, that’s fair enough. But then it’s revealed that the “Winter” is more of a metaphor for some guy that’s basically a mix of Sauron and Jack Frost. Ok, fair enough. But then when the Saron/JF goes to attack, he really doesn’t use weather much at all. It’s like the last thing he uses. It makes no sense militarily since his forces apparently love the cold. Why not just walk around slowly freezing everything? Does freezing his enemies just get boring after thousands of years?

[@AbsurdOod]

Oh shit, maybe you unintentionally nailed it..! When the Frostboies first started the siege, they saw how pathetic the defense was, and didn't bother to increase their efforts. The ice storm only began when "oh fuck, right, they got dragons". Maybe feigning a GOD AWFUL MONGREL DEFENSE THAT LITERALLY MADE IT ONLY WORSE FOR EACH STEP OF THE WAY was the master plan they made out behind camera? Sure as shit they would be proper fucked if 1. The Dead at least half-assed the siege and/or 2. The Night King didn't personally get his shit up in the most dangerous situation possible. This also explains the attackers' strange periodic hesitations - maybe they thought(/realized) they were being baited!

[@warumsindalleso]

But if they just stand there the dragons could fly over them and burn them. Also the nightking could be murdered

[@FilipCordas]

To be fair this strategy worked really well all they couldn't deal with was the teleportation abilities of Aria. Also night king setting the gods wood on fire with his dragon would have worked as well.

[@jclorist]

I like your idea sir, awesome

[@Anastasis1610]

Imagine how awesome it would be in episode 2 to have several scenes and montages showing the cast and others preparing for the fight, like digging the trenches or chopping trees and setting up the fortifications. If that were the case it would be more natural when we see how all these layers of defence play out in the fight.

[@ImagineBlue5]

Battle Strategy: Blast The Dead with Dragon Fire Until The Night King Shows Up. I did some math looking at the loot train battle and it looks like the blast can reach at least 10 men as the width and it looks like there are more than 100 wights lined up from left to right charging at winterfell in this battle. This means one swoop can take out around 1,000 wights. In the battle, it took Drogon about 4 seconds to go from right to left sustaining one blast. With two dragons, that's 2,000 wights in 4 seconds gone. From the episode on HBO GO, timestamp 18:20-18:25, it takes about 5 seconds for the dragons to turn back around and do another fire. If the army of the dead does have around 100,000 dead people, that means it'll take 50 swoops and 450 seconds for them to kill the entire army of the dead with dragon fire. Which is 7 minutes and 30 seconds. And I'm probably low balling the area of the blast and how many wights are lined up. So they could definitely have taken out at least half the army of the dead in less than five minutes, which would lure the Night King out 100%. Or have Bran tell everyone where the night king and whitewalkers are and have the Dothraki go around and surprise attack the white walkers with dragonglass arrows. Chunks of the army decommissioned. There are obvious flaws in my plan, but I'm just... Why? Anything but what they did would've been a better plan...

[@naimahafeji7453]

A better plan his - tbh. Least includes magic.

[@phuocminhluu2919]

With their sniping accuracy, White walkers would just throw spears from distant easily till they hit each dragon once and it's over Also the weather will prevent dragons from seeing from above. If they stay low they will get hit even easier

[@phuocminhluu2919]

we can only use dragons when white walkers are not around

[@Falcodevienna]

What would happen is what happened a bit later in the episode, the dragons would get under attack by the night king. What bothered me is why they waited forever to bring them on.

[@MyName-Jeff]

The problem is, the night king can kill a dragon with one javelin. If he got that chance then he would have 2 undead dragons which means everyone dies. The dragons were too valuable to be used carelessly. My head Canon is they were focused only on killing the night king with the dragons, but got too worried that the undead would overwhelm their army. When they attacked using the dragons is when they got lured into an unfavorable engagement with the undead dragon, and nearly lost a second. The only reason they survived that fight was because it was 2 vs 1.

[@roy4173]

I think the writers had some cool thematic ideas and just couldn't let go of them for the sake of actual sound battleplans. The lit fires of the Dothraki slowly dying off into the darkness and total silence for the several seconds following. It just sounds cool and chilling. It builds suspense and highlights the horror theme that the writers are shooting for. And it makes for a nice spectacle for a viewing experience. But when an actually sensible person interjects and asks, "Who in their right minds would actually do this?" The writers are, at this time, extremely reluctant to give up this cool idea in hopes that the powerful emotions that it will hopefully instigate will override any breaks in immersion. Unfortunately, it doesn't. I think most people watched this and were left scratching their heads. It's a spectacle for the sake of spectacle. Suspense for suspense's sake. Melisandre, unable to start her magical cigarette lighter until the very last moments for instance. But the writers wanted this event to feel impactful because it is one of the final battles of this story. So they want the protagonists to come within a knife's edge of defeat over and over again because they want this experience to last in the viewers' minds. And last it will, but unfortunately for the wrong reasons. They're trying too hard to please the audience instead of letting an already good story tell itself, and I think that's what's killing the immersion for so many people.

[@pissedoffturtle7333]

The lit fires going off could totally have still been done by writing in a disobedient or glory-hungry Dothraki leading his men in ahead of the others against orders.

[@ibrews]

Roy . : BBB nbkzkzk

[@roy4173]

@@pissedoffturtle7333 yeah, when you think about it, there are ways to make it work, but it does somewhat fly in the face of the fact that these particular dothraki did brave the seas which they hate just to follow dany. Rebellion feels a bit contrary to that degree of loyalty and obedience.

[@pissedoffturtle7333]

@@roy4173 Yeah, but a desire to prove themselves to her could just as easily cause them to disobey what they see as a cowardly order as it could drive them to cross the sea.

[@roy4173]

@@pissedoffturtle7333 this is a good point.

[@worldscoolestperson7672]

They don’t have near enough dragon glass for all their troops, and randomly handing out what they DO have would be incredibly irresponsible. All it takes is for the person to look the wrong way and get overwhelmed and then boom, you’ve lost one of your exclusive, greatest weapons; an object that basically causes instant death to any undead it touches. So, instead of a few fighters getting to use dragon glass weapons, shatter them all beforehand to make earrings or necklaces for as many people as possible. Then, when the Night King tries to do his “lol i’m gonna revive all your dead friends” move, it doesn’t work, they all immediately fall apart again because they’re already in contact with dragon glass.

[@alcbaz]

As a battle commander myself here are my top three courses of action to win this battle: 1. Send Arya north of the wall on her own straight after she completed her special forces training in season 6 to go kill the knight king alone with her scooby doo mask wearing trick and her Jedi force jump trick. 2. Soak the ground outside winterfell with acres of flammable tar, wait for the dead to run across it and set them all on fire. 3. Channel them into choke points using trenches lined with oil and filled with water (why bother with fire when you know they can’t swim). Then build improvised claymores out of wildfire and dragon glass ball bearings, with arrows tipped with dragon glass.

[@dmiller2036]

Dothraki did a LEEEROOOOY JENKINS!!

[@Lislio]

Atleast they have chicken

[@BR-ng1kp]

Hold Muh Fermented Mare's Milk!!!!!!

[@champ2501]

Yeah, but it was a premature leeroy resulting in a disaster

[@DanBurgaud]

Good one!

[@dfool06]

Jorah Mormont: Joooraah Moormoont! charges............."oh shit!"

[@adamcal4257]

"Reanimated peasants with bread knives cut through plate armour like butter" :)

[@mikedi7850]

It's almost like whoever made the show had no idea how armour was supposed to work 🤔

[@martinezmartinez6453]

@@mikedi7850 not defending the show by any means, but wights are supposedly super strong, for example in the books, at the fist of the first men samwell see a man in full armour getting lifted off his feet and getting his head torn off, a wight also grabs onto a horse and tears its innards out with one hand.

[@mikedi7850]

@@martinezmartinez6453 fiction eah oh well lol

[@houndofculann1793]

@@martinezmartinez6453 That is true in the books, but the show didn't really communicate anything like that. Characters are shown easily resisting the strength of even several wights at the same time, so conventional battle tactics should have been way more effective against them than what we see in the series.

[@martinezmartinez6453]

HoundofCulann you’re completely right although they did in the early seasons like when Sam gets thrown by the white walker when it comes for Gillys baby, the show runners just completely favoured plot armour towards the end :(

[@CZEPolice]

In my opinion, the last phase of the fight should be "inside" the buildings, the doors / windows of the buildings can be used as a good "chokepoint" in this case the enemy's numerical superiority is disappearing. Like in a thermopile.

[@Hepheat75]

The Night King's death pissed me off more than any other death in the show.

[@RoamingAdhocrat]

Great! Can you do another one, called How Not To Get Ambushed By A Ship?

[@SquareViking]

Step one: USE YOUR FUCKING EYES Step two: Fly a bit higher than at easily-hit-by-ballista range. Step three: Profit.

[@MoffatLee]

The secret is to not forget that the enemy who relies on ship-based warfare for the majority of his power might actually try using ships.

[@johnherrera5261]

Have dragons hold big rocks really high up drop rocks repeat literally no chance of danger also what kind of flying animal doesn't have amazing eye sight I was a fool to think D&D would even slightly give us an adequate final season

[@SpeakChinglish]

It is not just not spotting the one ship, it is whole fucking fleet...

[@aaddiis45021]

@@johnherrera5261 dude they did but they didn't have budget

[@johnnyskinwalker4095]

My strategy: everybody leaves for Essos and drop Bran at King's Landing

[@laszlosimonburjan2140]

Or take Bran back to the north, to buy some time

[@Brandonhayhew]

Or leave the north and settle the neck and build a big ambush battles.

[@GNt-kl4ro]

László Simon Burján now this is smart!

[@kingbyrd.1512]

@@Brandonhayhew nice name

[@Brandonhayhew]

@@kingbyrd.1512 your profile name is kinda unnecessary why not name yourself what your photo of profile says so emperor from old star wars.

[@kosachilles2504]

This was great!

[@itsyourtime688]

nice plan. Thanks.

[@LSRP2]

What this battle brought to mind for me was mostly a reminder that ROB STARK was the military kind in that family.

[@RubelliteFae]

Still, Jaime should have said something

[@rioa2236]

True. Rob was the better strategist/war general. Jon is more of a on the ground battle hero

[@prettygurlrockx]

Daenerys too. Like you conquered enough sh!t but you can’t defend anything? And all of those battle hardened men in that meeting and nobody said “Hey this plan sucks let’s all put our experience to good use and think of a better one.” I was done when they basically sent the Dothraki to die

[@kovona]

​@@prettygurlrockx Daenerys never won a battle where she didn't outnumber the opponent.

[@ethanh5553]

@Pretty Gurl Rock Dany never needed to have good strategy. Her army has always been so powerful she just facerolls everything she ever fought, this was the first battle ever where she didn’t have a massive advantage in terms of army strength. Meanwhile Jon is no tactician, he’s just a fighter. Jamie or Brienne would’ve been far better planners.

[@quintus6081]

What do we say to good tactics and writing? GoT since Season 5: not today!

[@zerosternritter566]

Battle of bastards was the only good battle ..... CHANGE MY MIND

[@six2make4]

@@zerosternritter566 It weren't a good battle though, it was just as retarded as this.

[@patapon646]

@@six2make4 Except Ramsay's plan was to make Jon Snow get angry and full retard. At least that's how i interpreted the Rickon scene

[@zerosternritter566]

@@six2make4 Really ? It felt quite realistic moreover the fuckin Lightings for that ep were good

[@mrspidey80]

Loot Train Attack had reasonable tactics on both sides. Lannister Side: The spear wall was a good idea. Had to be thin because they had to cover a lot of ground to protect their objective, the wagon trail. Archers behind and even on the island in the river bed were also a good idea, and bringing the scorpion almost got a dragon killed. Dothraki side: Full on cavalry charge with that numerical advantage against a shield wall only two men deep is perfectly acceptable. Even better, to help the Dothraki, Dany had Drogon burn a breach into the shield wall for the Dothraki to get through and flank and roll up the Lannister lines. Burning the loot a.k.a. the Lannister's objective was smart as well. Honestly, their isn't much either side could've done better.

[@jadelopez2257]

This makes the battle much better

[@vincenzomarino3876]

Great video as always! So far the only redeeming factor towards the strategy seen in the show (or lack thereof) was the need to provoke the zombies into a full on attack, to prevent them to sit outside the castle until all would have starved. However hard it can be to judge through historical strategies (no zombies in the real world...) there are still a number of better ways to engage a besieging enemy that does not want to move. Considering that walkers have no cavalry, the dothraki light cavalry could have just harassed them for days on end with dragon support, killing, running away and repeat the day after. Smarter tactictians than me could even find ways to engage that would force the main zombie force to spread out in the chase and be ambushed by smaller and mobile groups of mixed cavalry and skirmishes. All of this could have even been done during the walkers march to winter fell, buying the defenders even more time to build better fortifications. They are not really up against a very smart enemy after all...