In Defense of Rey: The Mary Sue Argument | Star Wars: The Force Awakens / The Last Jedi Analysis

[@Rey-zf7ms]

Thank you.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

Looooooooool

[@charcole400]

Haha

[@LtEvangel]

in conclusion, Rey is Mary Sue.

[@thetotallyrealkeanureeves2563]

I can't wait to see MauLer, Dishonored Wolf's and Rag's 47 hour EFAP response to this.

[@gamestation2690]

@Zer0dog What, did they respond, or something?

[@gamestation2690]

​@Zer0dog I'm talking to someone else in the comment section of this video, named Killiaka Kinnet, and no matter what I say, he remains stuck in the belief that training is needed to use the Force. It's obvious he didn't bother actually WATCHING the video. He dared me to give him concrete evidence in the movies that it's not the case. When even when I showed him the part in the video where Giggles talks about it, this is what he said: "That's all wrong; outside of most of it him saying "I presume" "from what i can tell" and so forth, which leads to him interpreting something in a way that favors him, there's also the fact that he sometimes cuts out other circumstances. Point is, garbage arguments"

[@PViolety]

I hope it happens

[@Srikar-on9ib]

They're the dumbest people on this earth

[@albedo5455]

@@Srikar-on9ib EFAP crew are dumb? I guess you think Patrick Wilhelms is some sort of genius?

[@alexhayden219]

There's a lot of bad arguments in here and disingenuous reads of things. There's also instances of assuming things and giving Rey the benefit of the doubt for things that you don't also apply to Anakin and Luke. I can't imagine that you persuaded too many people and it's not because they're stubborn, but because the arguments aren't convincing. I also can't help but think that The Rise of Skywalker won't do much to help your arguments but will probably hurt some of them. Obviously, you've watched the movies, but it often feels like you haven't watched the movies. The delivery could also use a lot of work. It often feels like several paragraphs are one long sentence. But I'll throw you a bone. You did it. You finished the video after nine months of pain and suffering. That's better than I've done. I've started videos but haven't finished any. I have motivation issues.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

I appreciate your criticism, but I don't really see how I'm being disingenuous. There's a moment in this video where I ignore a trait that applies to Anakin, when I didn't need to. Heck, I ignore all of the male only traits to make it more fair for Luke and Anakin. I make assumptions, sure, but that's mostly me just interpreting the scenes we have. I'm not trying to say everything in the video is fact, I definitely didn't do a good job of distinguishing between my interpretation and something that is factual. Ultimately, I'm just trying to be as fair as I can. I didn't go into this trying to be disingenuous. Regardless, thanks for watching.

[@oc-gg2eq]

Alex Hayden ok but all you did is say no but had no argument smh 🤦‍♀️

[@ReySkywalker2]

How can you watch this video and still think he’s wrong lmfao.

[@alexhayden219]

@@ReySkywalker2 How can you watch it and still think he's right? I understand that I didn't give any arguments. It's a long video to respond to and there's many videos and responses out there that cover everything this video covers. Examples from near the beginning (because I watched it in full at time of comment but I'm not going to rewatch the whole thing at this time, so the later added timestamps were helpful in finding a place to pick from) is the lack of personality and the attraction of others. Giggles agrees that Anakin and Luke have well developed personalities, but then also includes Rey as having a personality. It seems impossible to not have some kind of personality, but Rey's is extremely bland and, as Giggles says as her main personality trait, she just does whatever she thinks is right. At all times. So much so that she's basically incorruptible. Even if she does a wrong, it's okay because she thought she was doing a right and there's no repercussions. Anakin and Luke participate in the story and, yes, the story is centered around them, but Rey is almost exclusively a device to make cool stuff happen. The most we get of her personality is her introduction scene, which I do think is a great scene and presents a character that I may want to know, but that's pretty much it. I don't really see anywhere that she doesn't have control over her anger (outside of one scene that's not in the two movies covered) and emotionally isolated, the way it's portrayed in these movies, is basically to not have a personality. The next part about other characters being drawn to them without reason and that those characters think everything about them is great just because the other says so completely perplexes me. Giggles says that this doesn't apply to Luke or Rey but applies to Anakin and where some things can be interpreted differently, this is just... wrong. Outside the party that initially meets Anakin, which would be grateful for him helping them out, almost no one in-universe really likes Anakin. It may apply to Padme and Qui Gon, but not really anyone else. And not really Qui Gon, either, because he has reasons for being drawn to Anakin. Padme is really the only person that likes Anakin for no apparent reason. It's kinda crazy that Giggles acknowledges this, saying that Qui Gon was drawn to him while the other council members disagreed and somehow still says that this trait applies to him. You can't say that it's applicable to Anakin because everyone that that it doesn't apply to with him is either dumb or evil when that's every other character, aside from 1 or 2. Meanwhile, every single character falls over themselves to pursue Rey in some way so much so that it's a meme and there's specific scenes for it that fans were angry about and that JJ apologized for. The one person I could see someone saying it doesn't apply to with her is Luke, and I could give it for the way he acts, but not the way he feels that pushes him to act that way in order to push her away, which is more about his own damage than her. Rey fixes the compressor and Han says "Huh." Han's grumpy and disillusioned and seems more impressed with her and annoyed at himself for not being as good as her than annoyed at her. Then he offers her a blaster and a job. It's almost like the older characters have well developed and defined personality traits and Rey is just an incredible and awesome sponge.

[@alexhayden219]

I also think that, as predicted, TROS only hurt anyone's possible defenses of Rey.

[@g-unit0744]

It doesn't even matter if Rey is a Mary Sue or not, she is simply a badly written character. It's not only her but she is the protagonist so people are going to complain about the most.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

Fair enough.

[@danhamilton1801]

How is she badly written. I always see people say this but they never back it up

[@Ruylopez778]

@@danhamilton1801 Literature Devil - Why Rey is a Mary Sue. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gH-bgqBrpJWiibs

[@techno639]

@@Ruylopez778 Haha no

[@Ruylopez778]

@@techno639 Oh right, you make Lego videos, so you're an expert. In the pinned comment on this video, I replied to all the parts of this video that are retarded arguments, and the guy just said he couldn't be bothered to read it. Ask yourself this; if Rey is such a well written and sophisticated character, why are there so many people that don't connect with her and find her boring?

[@raulholik4395]

Yes she is

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

You say this as if the title was a question lmaoo

[@raulholik4395]

@@LaughinggCattGiggles You say she isnt as if it was true. LMAO

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

@@raulholik4395 Just my opinion, lad. You're allowed to think what you think.

[@raulholik4395]

@@LaughinggCattGiggles And so are you. I have nothing against you thinking that she isnt but you cant present your personal opinion as fact.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

@@raulholik4395 That's not what I'm attempting to do here. I'd never claim my opinion is superior to someone else's, even if it apparently came across that way in the video. I'm just some guy online anyway, what's my opinion really worth yo.

[@siddhantshukla7259]

When luke defeats the chosen one he had been trained by yoda and obi wan and also had time to train himself and we must keep in mind that vader must have been holding back because luke was his son on the other hand when rey beats kylo she was turning on the light saber for the first time and she just closes her eyes and says "the force" And she is suddenly all mighty

[@EcopiuM]

Found the smug fuck who didn't watch the video and thought commenting his "epic" argument before watching was going to be smart.

[@TrueMohax]

Anon Well Luke had training. Rey has no experience with a lightsaber or the Force and was still able to beat a fully trained Dark Jedi.

[@anthonydeperino2046]

Anon he probably didn't watch the video cuz it was full of contradictory bullshit

[@siddhantshukla7259]

The moron says anakin is immediately liked by everyone that's just not true mace windu has explicitly stated that he does not trust anakin, Yoda straight up refuses to train anakin as a jedi, he even is rebuffed by padme initially

[@anthonydeperino2046]

siddhant shukla honestly I went back and watched the full video and I think the point that he's trying to make that that non of these characters are Mary sues and that the term is stupid to begin with and too vauge to be applied to one character. He then goes on to say stuff about her training and how it's explained and people just didn't get it but honestly it kinda just felt like a shitty throw away explanation like "she force downloads all of kylos training when he force interrogated her" like that sounds like such shitty and bad writing almost as bad as most fan fictions and it's a throw away excuse for not being able to write a character properly. It's kinda sad that they couldn't do Rey justice there was so much potential with her character.

[@323starlight]

Gonna edit this comment a lot as its my responces to certain points throughout the video. 1. The part with the jedi councel being portrayed as dummies is actually the point of the story. They're a supposed councel of wise men who have become so complacent and arrogant that Palpatine was able to pull the wool over their eyes for years before shooting them in the back. And they're kind of right to distrust Anakin as he has a history of letting his emotions get the better of him. 2. @55:00 Anakin lost to Obi Wan because he didn't have the high ground. lol but actually, Obi Wan recognized that Anakin was planning to end Obi Wan the same way Obi ended Darth Maul in Phantom Menace, and Obi wan recognized what Anakin was thinking which is why he said, "Don't try it." Anakin then tries it and Obi Wan, who was ready for it, chops Anakin's arm and legs off before Anakin hit the ground. You ever have that moment in fighting games where you're trying to do this specific combo but your opponent has recognized what you're doing and constantly counters it despite your best efforts to do said combo? Its like that. Also Obi Wan has been on the defensive the entire fight while Anakin has been all out aggressive so one has exhausted himself while the other has been conserving his strength. 3. Fun fact, Luke is actually something of an author self insert for Lucas. I mean... Lucas, Luke S. I heard in an interview, mark Hamill said that when he was stuck on how to act in a scene, he would default to what Lucas would do and Lucas would love it. 4. In regards to the part where Daisy Ridley said the MaRey Sue thing is sexist, she also said that Rey being propped up as this ideal figure of female power is also stupid.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

I guess I didn't make it as clear as I wanted in the video. I don't think the Jedi of the prequesl being dummies is a bad thing, I knew that was the point whether it was intentional or not. I agree with all your points.

[@yaihrherrera2156]

I can see both sides of the argument but if you want to have a discussion/argument don’t have the first 5 minutes of your video saying “if you want to argue the other side then leave and if you’re going to argue the other side anyways then you’re an idiot” you don’t have to defend the reason you’re making the point, you can just make the video and get to the point, the point then defends itself when it is a strong argument Also this video would have been like 20 minutes shorter if you cut out all the insults to people arguing that she is a Mary Sue

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

That's not what I said. I didn't call anyone an idiot. All I said is that if you can't hear me out, don't waste your time on the video.

[@yaihrherrera2156]

Giggles first I appreciate your reply, and I’m referring to 4:36 and yes that is what you said but with how often you say it, and the negative language you use about the other side, it makes it feel like you’re discouraging a discussion, like the people who do think she’s a Mary Sue didn’t give any thought to whether she was or wasn’t and just repeated what they heard

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

@@yaihrherrera2156 I see. Well, I won't doubt that I do believe a LOT of the people that think Rey is a Mary Sue are just a bit... clueless. I mean, take a look at the comment section here. Most of the comments I'm now getting are just mindless and it's clear a lot of them didn't care to watch the video, since most of what they complain about, I end up explaining. As far as me insulting people, yes, I suppose I did do that at a few points. But I didn't mean for it to sound genuine and I guess it did. My bad there. As cliche as it is to say, it was mostly used for comedic effect. I don't have any ill feelings toward someone that thinks Rey is a Mary Sue, even if it seems like it in the video. Granted, it's been a while and I can't remember every single thing I said in the video. I may have gone too far in a few places and if that's the case, it wasn't my intent. Hopefully this helped in some way.

[@kingvince7328]

@@LaughinggCattGiggles 1. The reason people are commenting on a lot of the things you explained further in the video is because you used a gish gallop and then pretended like it was a good argument. You cant just say "people ddint care to watch the full video" when it's a 1:46:09 video, and you're presenting WAY too many arguments for a viewer to be able to accurately argue back against. 2. This guy just proved you wrong. You did insult the other side numerous times, and just once again did it by calling them clueless. 3. Even though you quite clearly didnt watch the original trilogy before making this video, you made it anyway 😂 4. You were wrong about the comparison between rey and Luke's skills. Luke says that he has flown before and is quite good at it, and his father also comments on his flying and shooting ability at the dinner table. Meanwhile there is no hint as to how rey is doing all of this, she just simply does it. 5. I would watch more than the 12:55 I did into the video, however, this is quite clearly a gish gallop.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

@@kingvince7328 Yikes, someone is a bit obsessed. You don't need to spam comments for my attention, lad. If I was referring to literally everyone that commented when saying some people are clueless, I would have made that extremely apparent. Don't twist my words, please. I'm not denying that I come across as condescending, I've said before in the comments that I would change things about the video and that is one of them. I apologize if you felt offended by the things I said in the video. It wasn't my intention to do so, and I'm more than aware that some of my points could have been communicated better. My bad. Also, you're wrong about Rey flying. She literally says in the movie that she's flown some ships before, same as Luke. I mention this in the video, which I feel like I'm saying all the time now. How can you claim I didn't watch the original trilogy when you make a comment like that? Also, dinner table? What? Do you mean his uncle Owen? Either way, watching the video to fully understand the context would be a good idea before spamming me with comments that are like 80% "gish gallop", whatever that is. I don't even know why I'm responding to this one, because you've clearly already shown how unreasonable you are. You're blatantly making shit up. When do I say in the video that Luke beats Vader in their first duel? Oh yeah, I don't. Try paying attention next time. That condescending enough for you? I'm more than happy to admit when I'm wrong or unfair, but you're really not making a good argument here, lad.

[@323starlight]

I subscribe to Overly Sarcastic Productions' definition of a Mary Sue, that being a character who bends the story to make them The most important. That a story with a Mary sue can't have interesting supporting characters.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

I don't recall if that point comes up in this video, but I think that's fair.

[@323starlight]

@@LaughinggCattGiggles you should have a look at their trope talks video on the Mary Sue, it's pretty interesting and humorous at points.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

@@323starlight I think I watched it a few months ago. I agreed with the general point.

[@RayOfTruth]

Luke Skywalker mildly sounds like Lucas, but leaving it at Luke S. is very similar to Lucas.

[@monojuice]

Absolutely love this video but I gotta disagree with your point of music because I feel like ROTS used the music in the best scenes and had the best soundtrack at that

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

Fair enough.

[@James35142]

Seriously, when compared to duel of the fates, battle of the heroes, the Luke/force theme?

[@CoryClayton]

I remember when George Lucas sold the rights to Star Wars in part because he didn’t see a point in making a movie aimed for 12 year olds and have 30 year olds bringing toxicity into the fandom. Now they cry because they apparently liked the movies he directed. Star Wars fans are by far the worst fandom out there.

[@dankerbell]

i agree but good luck breaking that mega circlejerk

[@sumsriv]

lol. 100 million incels strong.

[@ReySkywalker2]

Did you like TRoS? I loved it, even though I prefer TLJ. TRoS clearly wasn’t as good as TLJ and had less depth but it was just fun Star Wars and a satisfying end to the saga for me.

[@stefan6347]

I think TROS, while bad, is also a fun movie and does gave a satisfying end to the saga, that last scene from the Sandcrawler to the twin sunsets is in my top 5 moments in Star Wars. 5/10 for quality, 8/10 for enjoyment.

[@metri-e7i]

Well. The general characteristics of a Mary Sue/Gary Sue sem to be. 1- Liked by all goodly characters in a work. 2-Possesses abilities/ skills bit explained by available background. 3-No flaws( to speak of). 4-Succeeds with little/no difficulty. 5-Regularly displays abilities challenging/ superior to established , highly effective characters. So, how many of these does Rey fill. 1-Everyone of "goodly nature" seems to like this girl immediately. Fin falls for her the moment they meet, despite her kicking his ass for no good reason. Han takes an instant liking to her. So does Maz. Hell. Leia hugs her when she meets her at the end, ignoring her long time. friend Chewbacca( who just lost his best friend). I would say she meets this criteria pretty well. One solid Mary Sue point here. 2-Rey is highly skilled at craft( even ones she has never flown , to the .flying space extent of pulling off amazing feats of piloting with them), fixing spacecraft ( even ones she never worked on, better than those that have owned said ship for decades), fighting hand to hand ( kicks the butts of two other scavenger/ enforcers of Unkar Plutt), using blasters( she obviously has never used one, but outshoots trained stormtroopers on her first use)., using ships guns( she bullseyes three tie fighters in her apparent first use of a ship to ship weapon with one shot), uses the force with zero training better than Luke did after years of training. Does her background explain these skills/ abilities. Some of them, perhaps. She learned to fight having to take care of herself on a backwater, lawless world. Why not. Fixing things? Maybe she would pick up some ability to do so scavenging parts, but, being superior to Han Solo at it is far fetched for someone with as little life experience as her( more on that later). Piloting starships? She mentioned training a bit, but, that does not explain her amazing dogfighting skills. It would be like an Earth kid having learned a bit of aviation basics, easily pulling off Blue Angels level aerobatics and besting multiple trained and experienced fighter pilots on their first attempt at space battle. So. Not really. Using blasters? Nope. She obviously never used one before , but becomes an instant pro. Ships gunnery? Another no. She appears to have never used them before, given her reaction in The Last Jedi. Force abilities? Nope. She seems to have not been been aware of her force potential before easily pulling off force skills( resisting/ turning about Kylo's mind probe. Using the Jedi Mind trick, something Luke never pulled off until Return of the Jedi, after he had been trained, albeit abridged training, by both Obiwan AND Yoda. Overpowering Kylo pulling the lightsaber to himself) . So. Again. Rey would seem to have an array of skills and abilities that, given her background, and the established rules of the franchise, show her to be Mary Sue material. So. One more pretty solid Mary Sue point. 3-Flaws. She is a bit trusting and doesn't know a lot about the universe at large. But this never really seems to affect her much. She still knows everything she actually needs to. She still outshines other, more experienced characters. So. Half a Mary Sue point here then, since, she arguably has a few, minor, not really character inhibiting , flaws. 4-Succeeds with little/no difficulty. Well. She Effortlessly kicks the butts of Unkar Plott's goons. She effortlessly takes down Fin( who didn't know he was in a fight). She effortlessly takes out the tie fighters in the Jakku fight. She does get taken out by Kylo later and does have some problems with him at the end. In TLJ she defeats Luek Skywalker, but with effort( but...its LUKE SKYWALKER!!!!) . She could not defeat Snoke, but, in the following battle with Snoke's guard she proves to be even better at fighting them than the much more experienced Kylo. Then she effortlessly takes out droves of tie fighters with the Falcon's guns( apparently never having even used ship to sip weapons before. Remember how much trouble Luke had in A New Hope hitting tie fighters with ships guns. He missed a lot. She never did). Half a Mary Sue point here. 5-Does Rey show up established, much more experienced characters? Oh how often!!! She schools Han on repairing his own ship. She saves his, and Fin's, and CHewie's asses on the freighter. She (somehow) seems to know more about how the force ACTUALLY WORKS than Luke Skywalker( remember Yoda" The girl has everything she needs") Full Mary Sue point here. She leans pretty far that way. And this is after they tried to tone her down and introduce a few flaws and hardships in TLJ. In TFA she did pretty much everything with ease, with the one caveat that Kylo took her out and captured her, but, in the long run that seemed to be a plot device for Rey to shine even brighter later on. Luke actually trained with both Obi-Wan and Yoda, needed the guidance of Force ghost Obi-Wan to destroy the 1st Death Star, was beaten by Vader in Empire because he ran off to fight him without finishing his training with Yoda and it took him getting pissed at Vader threatening Leia in Return of the Jedi for him to beat him. Unlike Rey who forced Kylo out of her mind with The Force despite not knowing what it was or believing in it shortly before, became an expert lightsaber duellist when she first picked one up somehow, easily beat Kylo who was supposedly trained as a Jedi by Luke and in the dark side by Snoke. She had barely any training either. So Tony Goldshark is full of shit.

[@ReySkywalker2]

@@metri-e7i I’m not gonna read all that but Rey isn’t a Mary Sue.

[@ReySkywalker2]

@@metri-e7i A Mary Sue is someone who never fails and always succeeds with NO effort, struggle or work. They never struggle to succeed and never experience physical or emotional pain. This is because they have no flaws (internal and external) and therefore never change. First I will define what a ‘failure’ actually is. Simply: A failure is a lack of success. An attempt at fulfilling a goal but success is not achieved. Failure does not require permanent, eternal consequences to be a ‘failure’. Rey fails all the time, kid. There are two types of failures; Internal and External. ⁃ Internal failures are when the failure has a negative internal, emotional, psychological, spiritual and/or mental effect. ⁃ External failures are when the failure has a negative external, physical, social and/or physiological effect. (If you’re aiming for an A in an exam and you only achieve a C, that’s a failure because you were attempting to achieve a goal that you did not. However, you still passed with a C, so there are no permanent, external consequences to this failure) Now here is a list of all the significant FAILURES of Rey. • Rey fails to see through Finn’s lie, unlike Han. This makes Rey look extremely naive and childish. When she is told, she is extremely shocked by this. • Rey is captured by Kylo Ren with ease. After running into the Takodana Forest, Rey is found by Ren is frozen in place. She is completely defenceless and is taken by Ren without putting up any sort of fight, other than her feeble attempts at shooting him. • Rey fails to bring Luke to the fight. Many people would say this isn’t a failure for Rey, because it was Luke’s choice to not join the fight however Rey still had a goal that she did not succeed at fulfilling. • Rey fails to resist the Darkside when she meditates with Luke, causing Luke to be even more reluctant and scared to train Rey. • Rey fails to resist the Darkside cave, causing her great distress and pain. • Rey is easily manipulated by Kylo Ren, causing her to empathise and, eventually, is convinced to try and save him. • Rey turns against Luke, hitting him in the back of the head and ignoring his plea for her not to go. • Rey fails to turn Ben Solo to the lightside, instead pushing him further into the Darkside. • Rey fails to stand a chance against Snoke and gets thrown around with the Force and mind raped, causing her great physical and mental pain and suffering. • Rey fails to pull her lightsaber, from Kylo, to her, causing it to split it two instead. • Rey fails to connect to the cosmic force and the Jedi Of The Past when she’s training with Leia. • Rey gives into the Darkside when training against the training remote and gives into her anger, triggering a vision that causes her great distress and confusion. • Rey allows Ren to snatch her necklace from her, allowing the First Order to find them. • Rey gives into her darkness and anger when trying to pull the transport, causing her to conjure force lightning, destroying the transport she was trying to save. • Rey believed she had killed Chewie, causing her great pain and suffering. • Rey failed to retrieve the Wayfinder and allowed Ren to destroy it. • Rey gave into the Darkside when confronted with Ren on the Death Star Wreckage, striking at a defenceless and unarmed man. • Rey was defeated by Ren in their duel on the Death Star Wreckage.

[@ReySkywalker2]

@@metri-e7i • Rey gave into the Darkside when Ren dropped his lightsaber, catching it and stabbing an unarmed, grieving man with his own weapon. • Rey exiles herself, out of fear and despair, to Ahch-To. • Rey is manipulated by Palpatine and, out of an unhealthy flaw/lack of self value agreed to the ritual, to become the Sith Empress, as she believes becoming the Sith Empress will give her the self value she lacks. Rey does have flaws. She fails due to these flaws and, when she does succeed, struggles to succeed. She has internal struggles with her own self love, or lack there of, which causes her great, constant chronic emotional, internal pain. Due to her abandonment, Rey has no internalised self worth. She hates herself but she doesn’t know why. She has a constant, chronic pain within her, a hole in her heart, because she doesn’t love herself. Because of this lack of self love and value, Rey believes the only way to be of value is to be valued by other people. She believes that she is only worth something if other people think she is. Rey is always doing things to please others, to gain people’s love, respect, admiration and appreciation in an effort to gain the worth and value that she lacks from herself. This is the lie Rey believes. Rey believes that her worth comes from others and comes from giving to others. Whilst giving to others is good, it should not be the source of your self worth. You shouldn’t have to be of worth to others, to be of worth to yourself. The truth is that Rey’s worth and value (as everyone’s value is) has to come from within. Rey cannot be given value by others. Rey has to give value, worth and love to herself, to truly be happy, balanced and whole. Rey learned this truth when Palpatine tells her that she is to strike him down and “pledge herself as a Sith.” Palpatine tells her that the only way that she can find self value is by becoming the Sith Empress. Rey agreed to this lie but when Ben Solo returns to her, the truth literally looks her dead in the eyes. Ben came back for her. This showed Rey the truth. The truth that Rey is valuable and loved, just as she is. This allows Rey to refuse the Sith ritual. She also has this truth further confirmed to her by the Jedi and/or the cosmic force itself when she calls “Be with me.”. She is told that she isn’t alone, that she is strong, brave, worthy and deserves to be. This gives Rey the strength to rise. Not only were the Jedi giving Rey physical strength and power but they were giving her spiritual, emotional and mental strength. They convinced her to refuse the lie that she had believed all her life, that she was nothing and had to be given value from others, and to accept the truth, that Rey is a good person. Rey fails all the time, she trains in TLJ for 2 weeks with Luke and the Jedi Texts and she trains for almost 2 years in between TLJ and TRoS. Rey struggles and has flaws. She isn’t a Mary Sue. She simply is not. She has a very interesting, deep and complex arc that is as dynamic as it can be. She has literally no self worth, to the point where she is constantly selfless (too much so) causing her more harm than good. She also always seeks validation, approval and appreciation from others to accept and give herself value, which she must, and does, learn to overcome through the trilogy. She fails all the time. She loses to Luke (she does), she loses to Snoke and is thrown around like a rag doll and then has her mind raped as she screams in agony, she is at the mercy of Kylo Ren in TLJ and is saved by him (Mary Shes don’t need saving), she loses to Kylo Ren in TRoS and is disarmed and on the floor defenceless. Characters don’t automatically like her, either, which is another invalid criticism of Rey. Luke didn’t like her. Poe doesn’t like her. Han didn’t automatically like her until she proved herself to him. She’s not good at everything and what she is good at has reasons.

[@RationalRyan]

I'm actually glad you made this video. Two hours seems a bit much for this topic, but so far it seems like you're actually bringing something of substance to the table rather than just living in a "New Star Wars is objectively bad" echo chamber that a lot of these video essay makers put themselves in. My only complaint is that the lack of background music makes the video a little less engaging.

[@albertthepeacock8020]

I just wish people would stop lumping Daisy (Rey) with current Wahmen trends like with Brie/Captain Marvel because Daisy (Rey) are genuinely likable people. Heck Daisy even took her father to see TFA opening weekend if that doesn't scream wholesome I don't know what is.

[@Icybubba]

@@albertthepeacock8020 Yeah Daisy is a sweet person, so I really wish morons would leave her alone, though I thought the same for Hayden during the prequel backlash days

[@coleellis8988]

“Two hours seems a bit much” Wait till the EFAP comes in for 2933829 hours to tell him how wrong he is for breathing

[@Icybubba]

@@coleellis8988 ugh, I don't get why people watch that. I like Rags to an extent, but EFAP is just pure stupidity

[@baalsagol346]

@@Icybubba have you watched one?

Eight minute point: Not ONE BIT about what a Mary Sue is or Rey, now he's talking about what OTHER PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW WHAT THESE TERMS ARE. He then DESCRIBES how they don't know it. This video seems to be just him telling people he knows and nobody else does: exactly what he claims other people do. I understand why people who are politically motivated to proclaim Rey wonderful like this video: they have to walk miles and miles and miles just to get to the first point. The perfect feminist interpretation: listen to my droning, I'm droning on, still droning, are you listening to me droning?

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

Yeah, this video was kind of a fuck up on my end lol

@@LaughinggCattGiggles No no NOOO! Don't be decent about it! Rage at me and tell me I'm an idiot! Crap, now I gotta finish the video and treat you decently. Do you see what you've done here? What awful thing you've done? You're supposed to be stupid and angry and say dumb things, blindly lashing out.. *I have a sense of superiority to keep up here* Sigh. You really know how to take the fun out of being cruel, you know that?

[@kingvince7328]

I would love if you replied to my comment too, because the people that always act polite, but simultaneously throw insults is so funny to me.

[@MizanQistina]

It is simple, Rey isn't a Mary Sue because she isn't like previous SW heroes, I narrow it down into 3 roles i. the rescuer - Luke and Anakin both save a princess/queen and friends ii. the hero - Luke and Anakin become war heroes by blowing up enemy base and directly involved in the rebels/republic missions iii. the mystic warrior - Luke and Anakin are both magic warriors All of above done by a single character in OT and PT. In TFA and TLJ, these roles are done by 3 characters each i. the rescuer - Finn rescue Poe, and he continue this role by trying to rescue Rey from enemy base, and trying to rescue everyone by sacrifice himself in the last battle but failed ii. the hero - Poe destroy the enemy base and continue his role to be a hero in space battle and the last battle iii. the mystic warrior - Rey is a mystic warrior and continue her role as a mystic warrior, she only do that Rey only take ONE role of the previous movies main characters, by that alone she's not a Mary Sue.

[@saharaly9565]

Thank you

[@raexrockstar]

Bless you! This comment is great

[@TrueMohax]

Sorry but you seem to be missing what a Mary Sue is.

[@moistsparky9733]

I would say Rey’s defining flaw is that she is stubborn Rey spends pretty much the entirely of TFA whining about how she has to go back to Jakku and when she was on Jakku she was so stubborn about the fact that her parents where coming back constantly saying it constantly even though in her heart she knows that’s not true and when Maz Kanata confronts her about it Rey cries and runs away And in TLJ she spends the entire movie hellbent that she can turn Kylo back to light but when she tries too on the supremacy she fails So I think stubbornness is her defining flaw

[@darkwolf4434]

Her fear aswell. I'm sure that's also a reason why she wants to stay on Jakku. She fears change, she ran away from Anakin's saber and she was afraid of the force.

[@thesurvivorssanctuary6561]

*"Stubborn",* because Rey has no will to do anything else; and no character journey to shift her perspective. She simply acts as the plot tells her to. I loved Ret in the furst movie, but that is because I believed in the promise that her character would be given depth in the second movie; but instead what little character Rey had was assassinated to shit on audience expections, as Rey was never concerned with being "special" or about "bloodlines"; she just wanted her family back. So Kylo's speech about her parents being: "filthy junk traders" should have been meaningless gibberish to Rey, as she did not want to be "special"; she wanted to not be an orphan.

[@thesurvivorssanctuary6561]

​@@darkwolf4434 That's not really a character flaw though. If you suddenly started having a schizophrenic hallucination, you would also get scared and avoid what caused you to lose your mind. That's a reasonable reaction, and Rey changed her mind a little too quickly; so her _ACTUAL_ character flaw is that she allows other people and things to define her reality and push her into comflicts that are unrelated to her. Which is shown as a virtue in the films, but it actually undermines Rey's character; and terminates any identity she had before the latest batch of quest giving NPCs approached her.

[@motor4X4kombat]

thank you. i love rey she is my favorite character from the sequel trilogy and i don't feel ashame anymore if someone calls me a retard just for liking a character

[@thesurvivorssanctuary6561]

That's incredibly rude of those people. Like, I get their pain, as the Sequel Trilogy hurt Mme on a personal level; but no one should have *EVER* taken that shit out on you.

[@techno639]

THANK YOU I'm not even 5 minutes in and I'm already subbed

[@thesurvivorssanctuary6561]

2:00 Objectivity exists in art criticism. It's just that there is no centralized objective viewpoint. Objectivity in Art is about whatever values you want to focus on, because those values are then used as a measuring stick to determine what art is best and which is worst for those values. E.g. "The Last Jedi is objectively the worst Star Wars film!" Instead of just dismissing this claim, how about we determine by which _VALUES_ it would be true? Is The Last Jedi the most divisive film for Star Wars fans, and has it made the fandom unbearable to be a part of? *100% YES!* Objectively, true. Has The Last Jedi retconned more aspects of Star Wars worldbuilding, and done the most damage to the versimilitude of the Star Wars setting? *100% YES!* Objectively, true. Did The Last Jedi cause entire families obsessed with Star Wars for generations to completely lose interest in the most beloved stories they ever heard? *100% YES!* Objectively, true. So, by the standards of: Family, Faith, Comradery, and Undying Love for Star Wars, The Last Jedi was *OBJECTIVELY* the worst Star Wars film, _and_ piece of media, ever created. This is what *OBJECTIVITY* looks like. You can argue The Last Jedi was good on the basis of: novelty, themes, visuals, acting, and entertainment, but any conversation on the standards of: Family, Faith, Comradery, and Undying Love of Star Wars, will objectively prove TLJ to be the *worst.*

[@theadamsapple5909]

I know you're probably burnt out about talking about the sequels, but I'd absolutely love if you did a video like this about The Last Jedi. Any sort of conversation about the movie on KZbin is ridiculously hyperbolic and nitpicky, so I'd love a breath of fresh air. Either way, I loved this vid!

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

Thank you very much for the kind words, I'm glad you enjoyed it. I may consider some sort of video on the trilogy after TROS comes out. But to be honest, I don't think I'd have all that much to say about the movies. Despite the content I've made, I often have trouble articulating how I feel about movies/games. I will definitely consider it, though.

[@theadamsapple5909]

@@LaughinggCattGiggles Ok, thanks! I gotcha

[@millabasset1710]

Obi Wan is my favorite Star Wars character of all time and this video didn't offend me. You're awesome. Rey is a good character.

[@firestarr5812]

theFareulookinat Yep. There is no reason for Rey to be more powerful than anyone else. Say... Anakin. Because Anakin had the most midichlorians of anyone at the time, and he needed extensive training to use the force, whereas Rey seems to be able to do many force abilities with no training. I want a good explanation, Disney.

[@AidanMSM]

Firestarr 58 “no training” 1. She was trained by Leia for a year and a half, 2. She’s a palpatine 3. She has had access to all the Jedi texts for a whole year, 4. She was also trained/given guidance by Luke. Not a fucking Mary Sue

[@MrTREEHUNTER22]

@@AidanMSM I haven't watched Rise of Skywalker and don't give a fuck about spoilers but a year of training is fucking nothing compared to the hardship of actual Jedi training. Even Palpatine spent years under Plaguies before he had enough skill and power to overthrow him. Rey never actually gets taught anything by Luke. He talks about the force and makes her aware of what it is, but he never actually gives her any lessons on how to use the force or how to wield a lightsaber. The books are actually the only things that matter because Luke also had to learn in a similar way. He had Yoda and Ben, but a large part of his training came from Obiwans notes after death and him finding various Jedi related stuff to help in his training. In the Vader comic we see that Luke finds Jocasta Nus copied archive of the Jedi temple and he learns from those. I'm fine with Rey pulling off a mind trick or beating Kylo because things can happen. I think it would've been smarter to show that her control over the force was wild (maybe accidently killing the first order trooper or something) but whatever. But in the last Jedi and the force awakens she has a variety of skills that are usually divided amongst many characters. She's a great pilot, shes fluent in the wookiee language and the Droid language, shes an excellent shooter despite the fact she's never used any kind of firearm, she beats the red guards in the throne room despite receiving 0 combat training (I can forgive her fight with Kylo because he obviously was not emotionally ready to kill his father and he got shot by a bowcaster), and finally she lifts giant ass boulders despite being basically in the same place as she was in force awakens. Let me spin it this way just in case I haven't convinced you. Anakin Skywalker, the most powerful force user of all time, who had access to the full knowledge and history of the Jedi, as well as training under one of the most famous Jedi Masters in history, took nearly a decade to complete his Jedi training to become a Jedi knight. Luke Skywalker had both Obi wan and Yoda to assist him as well as the archive equivalent of the Jedi temple (credit to Jocasta nu) yet even after all that he wasn't strong enough to beat Vader, using Anakin's connection to the lightside as a way to weaken Vader. Rey is a Mary Sue for those reasons. I'm curious to know your response

[@mrclean3472]

Firestarr 58 Luke didn’t have training in a new hope (Lightsaber training is not force training) When is it said that you can’t use the force without training Just because a factor has not been established does not mean that it can’t happen I mean how could Luke use the force in episode 5 to move things that had never been seen The only way Rey using the force without training could be a flaw was if it had been told that it could not be done The reason why Rey is a good character from a filmmaking and writing perspective is because she seemingly comes from nothing and yet she is the new spark of hope and light for the film’s universe Rey represents how even if you come from nowhere you can still accomplish great things She is also interesting because she is seemingly the opposite of Luke Skywalker Luke came from an extremely powerful lineage and yet still had a hard time adjusting to the situation that he had to do (rescuing Leia) Like i said Rey came from nowhere and is already a skilled fighter and an independent person Luke wanted to get off his planet and lived with his aunt and uncle and was very impatient Rey wants to stay where she was and she also very patient and a lot more down to earth You should not judge if a character is good or bad just by how powerful they are. You should also take into account how the character functions narratively within the plots and focus less on the rank of ability A bad character can be described as .Bland .Not developing .Cliché .pandering .ultra plot-convenient While i see where you are coming from this still does not define Rey as a bad character

[@kristosturambar7074]

It's very simple, Rey completes the heros journey Luke took 3 films to complete in just the first movie.

[@kristosturambar7074]

@Blake Torra I can imagine a blind Jedi they existed in cannon once, they were called the Miraluka and they were awesome. But you say rey struggled which is true but you miss the point of what I said, she completes the heros journey with in the first movie, she defeats her arch enemy in the very first film while Luke never even fights Vader and the first time he does in the second film he loses.

[@kristosturambar7074]

@Blake Torra No I see that its Reys story that is the problem, well its the entire story really, none of it makes any sense not Rey not Kylo nor the first order or ther resitance but I also agree that by shoving the entire heros journey in one film rushes it but I also dont think that pacing is the fans main issue.

[@kristosturambar7074]

@Blake Torra Why do you keep going back to pacing, what are you gonna say next "Did you know Star Wars was saved in the editing". Keep copeing with the facts. Reys midoccloiran count has yet to be explained and niether where she came from. Making Luke the scapegoat as to why Klyo is bad is counter to Luke's entire ark and honestly makes the least sense out of anything in the new trilogy, you also admit both powers make no sense being were they are.

[@TrueMohax]

Blake Torra There’s no explanation for any of Reys skills in the movies.

[@traktor420]

So Rey isn’t full Mary Sue, she doesn’t meet the criteria, but people need to realise that her not being a Mary Sue doesn’t make her some sort of holy grail fro Star Wars, her backstory is super generic (which is excusable cus Star Wars I guess) but she has no character development, aside from the one I’ve heard about learning to love herself, which is never even hinted at in the movies, just in the books, there’s tons of shit she does that’s only ever explained in external material, and the force powers in force awakens are still shit, there’s a difference between trusting your instincts to know when to shoot something, and full on mind probing someone who is trained in the sith and Jedi arts, and pulling off an effective mind trick, and anakin’s powers in spooky menace were not things he had control over, it’s a thing that Jedi can do without training, it’s more of a natural force power then one you have to learn, unlike mind probes and mind tricks

[@grumpykoala4796]

*"Hey fellow gamers, it's me; Rational Alt-Right Suit-Wearing Furry #4138. And today, for 13 hours straight, I will be OBJECTIVELY debunking this video one of my water-headed fanboy drones found that apparently """""defends""""" the character of MaRey Sue."*

[@PViolety]

wOw, you really gottem this time

[@kpencil859]

I love it when people who dislike TLJ are lumped automatically as alt-right. Props to you! *Clap *Clap *Clap

[@jxomxo]

K Pencil too bad it seems so many of them are

[@Icybubba]

@@jxomxo The term Alt-Right is a buzz word that gets thrown around, like how everyone who likes TLJ must be an SJW right? There's Alt-Right who love TLJ, and SJW's who despise TLJ. Never forget that.

[@cleverpsyche115]

@@Icybubba that's a fair cop

[@phonixfighter7966]

Ray is 2 times DEAD try to argue with this. They had to edit a "dagger" away so she isnt getting stabbed and another guy has to stop his Atack becous Ray looks the other way. There is littraly no point in arguing over a DEAD Character.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

Who is Ray?

[@Imperishableskynet18]

Finally! Someone who understands Rey's Character! Effort! Actual effort! 😀

[@r2-kt743]

I think she’s a well written character

[@spider-manbeatsbatman3610]

No she’s really not

[@r2-kt743]

Darth Sidious that’s your opinion

[@spider-manbeatsbatman3610]

Benjamin Buford Blue true it is

[@AlfredFJones1776]

And here we are now after the entire trilogy is done. And you are wrong.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

A few parts haven't aged well due to TROS, but on the whole I don't get your point.

[@TrueMohax]

Giggles For starters a Mary Sue not only doesn’t need to be a self insert, but it’s actually a story trope, not character.

[@lordteensie6156]

"you can nitpick every part of this movie, that's not a problem" lmao

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

Not sure why you've popped this in inverted commas, I don't recall saying this. And you could probably do this with any movie ever tbh.

[@lordteensie6156]

@@LaughinggCattGiggles it's paraphrased, at least the "I don't see a problem" part. Also no you really can't do that with any movie, that's ignoring the kind of craftsmanship and hard work that others put on display. For an example, how much of John Carpenter's the Thing can you nitpick?

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

@@lordteensie6156 Yeah, you're not wrong. I was just having a bit of fun.

[@RayOfTruth]

I'm an angry internet person who don't have a valid counter argument but you're wrong anyways and I'm not going to explain why! /s

[@anthonydeperino2046]

Funny but wrong people have valid complaints about Rey character I feel like they over exaggerat when they call her a mary sue but that still doesn't excuse her unexplained training with her force abilities and some combat to some extent but mostly the force abilities. She also doesn't have to struggle with that much in the force awakens in the last jedi it's a completely different story and expands on reys character but I digress

[@mithrawnudo2152]

Have you seen the Literature Devil's video about Mary-Sues? He is of the opinion that it's not the numerous traits, but numerous what he calls Mary-Sue moments, that make or break the character. That even if there are not a bunch of different ways a character is written badly, they could fall into numerous instances of the same few bad writing pitfalls. Perhaps a weighted system rather than checking a box on a list would better allow us to see a character as being well written or not.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

Sure, maybe. My approach was mainly attempting to be as statistical as possible. You know, intentionally boil it all down to what cannot be really denied in a scene. Some of that is influenced by opinion, as everyone would have a different score if they individually checked off the boxes. And some of it is just what is directly or indirectly stated in the film which can't really be argued. I can't claim if that worked or not, but it seemed the far more interesting and reasonable approach, personally. I haven't really thought on the specifics of it all in a long while now, and I just generally have no interest engaging in the conversation anymore. So, chances are I won't check out that video, but I won't claim it's wrong just because he probably concludes that Rey is a Mary Sue. I just can't care for it at this point. But it's clear you bothered to watch at least some of the video, so I appreciate that and the civil comment.

[@mithrawnudo2152]

@@LaughinggCattGiggles I indeed watched the whole video and found it to be interesting. You presented a perspective I hadn't seen before. I was not expecting a reply, especially so quickly, on a two year old video. I can understand being done with the debate, so feel free to disregard this, but I do have one more observation. Some of the arguments presented in your video boil down to "the movie says so, therefore it's valid." This doesn't seem to be a very satisfying answer in many situations. Take the introduction of midiclorians in ep.I. That was nearly universally rejected by fans and it was never brought up again in the movies. The movie's explanation was not found to be needed or satisfactory. One other example might be Obi-Wan's line from ep.III, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" which is itself an absolute statement. The reasoning of the line is faulty, so we shouldn't take the content as valid. Do you think it's reasonable to look at some of the explanations in the sequel movies as illogical, or out of left field? If not reason to reject the explanation outright, do you think it would be reasonable to say the writing was poorly done?

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

@@mithrawnudo2152 Yeah, I suppose in a lot of cases it isn't very satisfying, but I imagine that was what I was going for. That's just how it is, whether or not you like it, etc. I was trying to remove my own bias and just present it as it is in the movie, but that definitely didn't work out exactly how I had hoped. I also fell into some of the traps I had accused others of making, like unnecessarily pitting female characters against each other only to then do that at the end with Rey and Jyn Erso. But, you know, live and learn and all that. I always personally viewed that line from Obi-Wan as being intentionally contradictory. I think the point in that moment is less about Obi-Wan's statement being valid and more about showcasing how blind he was to the double standards and hypocrisy of the Jedi. After all, their portrayal in the prequels is meant to show them as incompetent and blind to the problems they are creating. And yeah, I'd say it's reasonable to think the sequels have poor writing. I certainly can agree with most of that in regards to The Rise of Skywalker, though I still enjoy The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi. I don't have a problem with it, though. Neither of those movies are exactly perfect. But I guess for me at this point, it just isn't that deep. All the movies are flawed in some way, so I just kind of take them for what they are now.

[@Slayer-Wulf]

Am i the only one who thought last jedi was just ok

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

Probably not.

[@williamwyler7649]

It had a lot of good scenes and great character development, but there were some pointless stuff in there. It was enjoyable overall for me

[@williamwyler7649]

Also some of the most badass moments in star wars I've seen. (Rey and Kylo teaming up)

[@TrueMohax]

Christian Wyler Sadly that team up was not very good once you realize what was going on.

[@coisman]

Yes, everyone else thought it was horrible.

[@thesurvivorssanctuary6561]

1:38 Nah. The twins sons moment is easily eclipsed by the Death of Anakin's mother and his slaughtering of the sand people. It's nothing but nonverbal acting and John Williams slaying the score and our ears. Seriously, Attack of the Clones is a truly magnificent movie, and it's unfirtunate that people simply are not educated enough to appreciate it, 😔. Nah son, Attack of the Clones describes America's current political decline, and Revenge of the Sith is coming in our not too distant future...

[@bastianspiekermann6702]

This is a really great video and I am kinda sad, that you spent so much time and energy into it and don't have as many views as the typical "hate" channels. You deserve way more.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

Yeah, that's just how it is with these videos. I hoped it would get a fair amount of views, which I suppose it has. Who knows, maybe it'll blow up someday. It only takes one person sharing the video or reacting to it, I guess. Thanks for watching.

[@bastianspiekermann6702]

@@LaughinggCattGiggles I actually tried to share it on the reddit Star Wars sub, but it already was submitted so it wouldn't let me. Still, I hope it will get some more recognition someday

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

I couldn't see it on the subreddit. Which one is it? Either way, thanks for checking it out.

[@supreme_leader5135]

@@bastianspiekermann6702 What's the title of the post on the sub? Can't seen to find it anywhere.

[@adamduffield7782]

Lol. Giggles says its plausible why Rey defeats kylo, 1 bowcaster injury, yes chewies bowcaster is powerful,but kylo only suffered a glancing blow, hence why hes only bleeding slightly and bot incapacitated. 2. As shadaversity points out, the practice scene in TLJ shows Rey wielding swinging a lightsaber and looks terrible, giggles uses this as evidence that Rey is not a Mary sue , but then if she is shit at using a lightsaber then how the hell is it plausible for Rey to beat kylo in a saber fight? Oh but giggles says rey has previous combat experience, yes she can defend herself from a few thugs on Jakku, that's not the same as fighting a fully trained force user which kylo is ment to be, also shadaviristy did a video on why fighting with a staff does not translate to fighting with a sword like weapon , it's a different skillset . So in conclusion Rey should have lost to kylo in TFA, but giggles will dismiss that its evidence towards Rey being a Mary sue 🤦‍♂️

[@fitzhugh7463]

I don’t even think you need combat experience to use a lightsaber. It’s all about allowing the force to guide your actions. In this case, Rey is overpowered in that the force has awoken in her.

[@adamduffield7782]

@@fitzhugh7463 well, it's star wars, so it has to follow the in universe laws that was established by George Lucas, ie you need to train to be able to use both a lightsaber and the force, takes physical training to wield a lightsaber, takes mental training to use the force efficiently. And further training to use both simultaneously. Since Rey hasn't been trained in either, her abilities should be alot lower, but nope, she has a vagina so powers are given and not earned.

[@fitzhugh7463]

Adam Duffield what does Rey having a vagina have to do with anything? Yes she’s handed the power of the force so from a outward physical change standpoint she doesn’t earn anything. But the force awakens isn’t about that. she has a character arc of learning to let go of her past and accepting a new path in life that she may at first be afraid of. She grows in that way. Not every character arc is earning power.

[@fitzhugh7463]

Adam Duffield further more. Disregarding everything except movies, the only lightsaber training we ever see is Luke doing that exercise on the falcon in the original Star Wars and the younglings doing the same thing in the prequels, and those weren’t even training how to use the lightsaber, they were exercises on using the force. If you remember in empire, Luke during his training with yoda barely ever used his lightsaber and the one time he did he failed because of it. Luke became a true Jedi when he threw away his lightsaber and refused to fight in return of the Jedi. His main character flaw keeping him from using the force was his impulsiveness to take immediate action. Rey on the other hand is almost hesitant to fight in most cases.

[@jaceallen4985]

She’s in my top 10 favorite characters, I never ever hated Rey ,just thought she was different.

[@theadamsapple5909]

Holy crap, this is great! Thank you!

[@midnari]

"It's completely pointless and will only serve to make you look like an idiot because you're actively going out of your way to disregard the movies to say you're right when you're actually wrong and "Especially" if it's established or explained in the movies-" Whoa, bro. You basically just stated 'I'm right, you're wrong, if you debunk anything I said you're obviously very very wrong and an idiot." I mean, dude, there's more people out there that disagree with you with some pretty hefty facts that any writer would agree with and citations and sources to go along with it. Were I you, I'd look in the mirror, re-read that brief quote I left you, and realize you're the one that made yourself look like an idiot because you're actively going out of your way (Two hours?) to disregard the movies to say you're right when you're actually wrong and ESPECIALLY if it's established or explained in the movies. Oh, right. Sorry, just my two cents. I actually have no idea whether you're right or wrong. I haven't seen the new series and I barely remember the original three so... No actual judgement here, I'm just pointing out that you're not just being smug you sound like you're being a hypocrite to the outside world. I'm not saying you are, but I'm perceiving you as such _so_ hard right now. Just because, I mean... You just shut down any arguments and stated, before anything could be said, you're already right. That's not a good way of introducing your side. I specifically was hunting for something that would defend Rey because, well, I like having all sides to a story and I was interested in what might be said. I'm tuning out, man. Sorry. Again, no offense, you just came off as a bit of an asshole there and I'm going to go ahead and shut down anything else you have to say because of that. Edit: I found a 7 minute one that gets to the point a bit quicker and the guy pretty well states 'It's just my opinion' rather than telling everyone he's right, you're wrong. So, uh. I'll watch this three year old one to get an idea. Thanks bud, but hey, good on you for making a video. I'd speak just a tad slower, though. But it's just my opinion.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

I probably should clarify that, because it does sound exactly like what you're saying it sounds like. All I meant there is that if you were to disregard the things I'm saying, you'd be disregarding the movies themselves because a lot of what I'm trying to do here is just relay the information from the movies. My point was mainly just that to argue with the movie itself, it seems like you only care about being right, when you're actively ignoring what's in the movies. To me, it wasn't really a matter of right or wrong, but what is in the movie itself and whether what people were saying was fair; I came to the conclusion that a lot of it wasn't. This doesn't translate well though, as not everything in the video is fact taken from the movies. Some of it is just my interpretation, which makes it seem like I'm saying I'm right, you're wrong. As I'm sure I say in the video, it's more that the movies are right and you're wrong, which I guess isn't really any better, but I just said that because what people say is directly contradicted by the movies, so, yeah. In hindsight, this was a silly thing to say and the video itself, while still somewhat condescending, is more about your own opinion. No one is going to have the same score that I do by the end, because the traits that you think apply will be different from what I think. No one likes being told they're wrong, but in the case of this video and Rey apparently being a Mary Sue, a lot of people are just wrong about certain things. It's easy to take scenes out of context and present it in a certain way, but when you view the scene in full, something didn't add up for me. I guess that's one of the reasons I felt compelled to make this video. I hope this clears things up. I'm realizing now more than ever what a mess this video really is and how it portrays me as a snooty and elitist prick. I've been meaning to make a sort of update to this, where I clarify some things and re-evaluate the whole Mary Sue criticism. I don't blame you for not wanting to continue the video, but if you can get past my sometimes dickhead attitude, I think there's some good stuff in it. Either way, I appreciate the criticism and I'd love to hear your thoughts if you ever do get around to watching the video. But honestly, I'd just recommend you watch the movies and spare yourself from watching my garbage.

[@AlbaHistory]

I don't agree with you on rey I believe her character could have been developed better but at the same time I respect you're point of view. I personally don't like the last jedi due to how they treated Luke Skywalker and how his character ended.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

Fair enough

[@bigkabuto]

I'm always open different opinions, hearing about other stuff I may have missed. I can't watch this right now, but I will say that for the past few days I've been watching all the SW movies again, chronological order and today I watched TFA, so I can watch TLJ tomorrow before seeing the new one. What really bothered me to no end was how easy everything for Rey was in TFA and I don't think it can be denied. She knows wookie language? She completes sentences that Han is saying, how can she know this? Never flown in her life, but look at how she manouvred the MF through the most crazy corners and obstacles. How easily she got the trooper to free her, how Kylo was absolutely NO match for her at all. He had training by Luke and Snoke, but he fights like he has just started testing a lightsaber. Yet he gets easily beaten by Rey, and that part where she's on that edge of the cliff and Kylo talks about the force...she immediately has the power to get away from this bad situation. Felt so damn off. Luke and Anakin both had training, Rey? Zero. These are only a few examples. But that being said, maybe tomorrow after I see Rise of Skywalker I'll check this video out fully, probably gonna be Friday.

[@glueperson1010]

Actually she did fly a couple of ships

[@AidanMSM]

Thijs van Abs Thijs van Abs 1. She flied ships 2. Kyoto wasn’t trying to kill her during their first duel on star killer base, and she’s a PALPATINE.

[@glueperson1010]

Kylo wound still win even if he was injured and being a Palpatine isn’t valid.

[@waywardjoker6061]

Everyone in this comment section has atrocious spelling skills.

[@AidanMSM]

Glue Person Not if Kylo was shot with a bowcaster

[@motor4X4kombat]

37:55 i think that jump cut was an homage to the jump cuts from a new hope everytime a door Is open in a death star, yeah kinda pointless but for the sake of sending love for the old School of filmaking, good for them

[@ligerzpwnall]

dislike button

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

329 dislikes currently, since KZbin won't let people see it now.

[@mrclean3472]

I hate when people say that the new movies are the “worst movies of all time”

[@gamestation2690]

I also hate when people vilify Kathleen Kennedy, because she was responsible for producing many of the greatest and most popular movies of all time. I think she gets a pass.

[@TrueMohax]

GameStation3 Yeah but look at who she was working with in those films. Not entirely sure she was the benefit.

[@gamestation2690]

@@TrueMohax You don't know how important producers are, do you?

[@TrueMohax]

GameStation3 She was an assistant, she didn’t have the same kind of power that she does now. Or at least used to have, Disney has stripped her of everything and everyone else seems to be in a better mood.

[@firestarr5812]

Well, this was interesting. After watching through most of the video? Yeah, Rey isn’t a Mary Sue. It just doesn’t apply. However, I do believe she is a rather poor and basic character, that performs feats that I feel should be beyond her. But hey, 100% congrats, you made a solid and complete argument on the internet, and people accept it! You, my good sir, are the 0.002% of the internet.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

Totally fair about Rey. Thanks for the comment.

[@johngoldfield6602]

in a recent interview with JJ Abrams he admits Rey is a marysue and he doesnt deny how great she is compared to Luke and Anakin so this video can eat shit lol. the guy wasted an hour of his life making this video

[@johngoldfield6602]

@Blake Torra I've known the term marysue way before it became viral by said guy who first called her that I even thought she was when I first saw ep7 it's pretty simple definition just compare her with the original marysue they have alot in common but even Rey makes the original look lowly in comparison. quoted from the rolling stones interview "One thing you hear from people is that the character of Rey feels preternaturally gifted, even for a Jedi - that she learns things faster than, say, Luke Skywalker ever did. JJ: Yeah, spooky, right? [Smiles] It’s a fair point. It’s not an accident." he basically admits shes OP and better than Luke. also this is in the same article where Kathleen Kennedy admits her version of starwars is a trainwreck

[@johngoldfield6602]

@Blake Torra he doesnt have to say marysue to admit it he agreed that shes stronger and more talented than Luke. he shamelessly tried to make her better. and are you talking about that lazy plot point where the reason her force is strong is to match with Kylo's? that's still lazy and unearned. also Anakin wasnt that great sure he was supposedly very strong in the force but he still needed teachers to show him how to use it, he never learned how to activate it until quigon showed him and Anakin never knew how to use a lightsaber without Obi wan showing him, plus Anakin still got owned by failures hes faced and we never got to see his full potential because canonically obiwan minuses the amount of midichlorians in him(I know that's a touchy word) and him being "jesus" was talked about in the movies too the prophecy of the chosen one but meanwhile the character who ISNT a chosen one Rey never got training at all minus the leaf smacking scene that was barley a lesson because need I remind you Rey is a feminist icon and they wont allow Luke to teach her. and she pretty much self taught herself in ep7 so she never needed help with anything

[@johngoldfield6602]

@Blake Torra she did not, she said she thought it was a myth but was convinced when han told her, and where did you hear that?.. if that were the case everyone who has seen the force can do it because they believe it because they saw it, everyone in the galaxy would use the force, that's why we have force sensitives for a reason so this doesn't happen, the blind guy is unique and one reason I liked him was because hes actually a normal guy who thinks hes force sensitive when hes just a normal blind guy with skill there are tons of leaks on Rey being Palatine's granddaughter but it's so silly and random it's hardly believable and that's not the whole reason for anakin being the chosen, the Wills/the ones acknowledged Anakin as the chosen one, and the chosen prophecy was already aware by the jedi. but that also doesnt stop rey from being a marysue because shes also better than Anakin when he first started

[@JoanieDoeShadow]

Actually the most Mary Sue character in SW is R2D2

[@Michaeluj]

I really like what I'm seeing from this video so far. I'd just like to add another perspective to the "informed flaws" part, to say that I think Rey did display almost exclusively harmless flaws. Oh, and just FYI, I hate TFA but love TLJ. So, in TFA, the only noticable flaw Rey displayed was a yearning to stay on Jakku because of misguided longing. But that never really impacted her. Yes, everyone was like, "Don't be stupid, don't return!" But she dismissed all of those complaints because, to her, they didn't matter, and so she never much felt a reason to grow. She was also too busy trying to survive in nearly every other scene to be introspective as well. Yes, maybe Maz and Han tempted her, but only a little bit, enough at least so that she could consider a trip to meet Luke, but overall I think she remained unchanged from beginning to end. But yes, like you pointed out in the video about TLJ (and only that movie, funnily enough), Rey did develop out of this flaw.

[@c-hildy]

Her longing to go back to Jakku (aka her fear of her future) led her to run away from Maz's castle and eventually get herself kidnapped by Kylo Ren. So yeah it impacted her greatly.

[@kristianvaisanen7608]

@@c-hildy Only to end up saving herself

[@nichiyohane]

I burst into laughter at 8:13 because I felt the same. Then the next 2 mins arguments just like coming out from my heart, good video.

[@nichiyohane]

start from 1:00:00, i think most Mary Sue beauty traits came from anime(while majorly created by male authors)

[@joshmitchell1898]

Even is rey was/is a mary sue, i still find her one of the most interesting characters in the skywalker saga.

[@joshmitchell1898]

Darth Villain Much better than that whiny, annoying, ungrateful, simp teenager called Anakin

[@poopoohead3709]

more interesting then watts or klaud? pff spotted the fake fan

[@forbiddenbanana9255]

If people are going to be talking about this both sides should be respectful to each other it's sad to see how some people prefer to insult each other rather than simply just discussing this together

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

I agree, though I'm sure people have felt insulted by something I said in the video. I try to be as fair as I can, but sometimes I get carried away.

[@forbiddenbanana9255]

@@LaughinggCattGiggles It's fine it happens to everyone

[@itsmepale6558]

My boi Giggles out here simping before it went mainstream ✌

[@vanillamilk7575]

39:23 I just want to clear the stuff for anyone that took that the wrong way he’s not saying Luke never got good with the light saber he saying in this scene Luke wasn’t even good in the first place he saying the original movies most of the time Luke was never a master duelist and still won fights due to the emotions of him and his opponent. Aka vaders confliction and Luke tapping into the dark side or his anger. Also I’m I’m late after lol

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

HOLY FUCK YES. Had some copyright issues, but fucking shoutout Disney for releasing the claims on the video. Been trying to get this to work for days now. That's why the video says 3 days ago.

[@younggod5230]

for the name part you absolutely overlooked the elephant in the room. "skywalker". the names speaks for it self in terms of indulgance and "special-ness". definitely point for both anakin and luke

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

I suppose you're right, but things like that seemed nitpicky to me.

[@younggod5230]

@@LaughinggCattGiggles well in that case. This entire video proves both that none of them are mary sues and that the debate itself is kinda silly. Great video

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

@@younggod5230 Thanks for watching.

[@ReySkywalker2]

Incredible Video. Gonna reply to any “Rey is a Mary Sue” comments on the internet, with this link.

[@firestarr5812]

Lord Plagueis Oh look... you did.

[@firestarr5812]

Lord Plagueis Well, you did stick to your word.

[@cyanide4552]

The mad man actually did it

[@firestarr5812]

Cyanide Indeed... indeed he did.

[@cosmiccosmog3919]

see thats where your wrong bucko

[@eragonbromsson1122]

Sorry but many others fan-favorite female characters in Star Wars are good pilots so your point about Rey being hated for being a girl is totally wrong.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

I'd still argue that people make too much of a fuss about it regardless, but that's fair.

[@hamzaimran771]

it's so easy to destroy your entire argument instead of watching a near 2 hour long vid. Rey is the granddaughter of one of the most greatest sith force users you say, Rey is extremely talented you say, rey is a master swordsman because she fought with a staff you say, rey has a powerful connection with the force therefore she doesnt need training to use the force or it's advanced techniques you say. then pray tell me why the hell she wasn't able to use these amazing force abilities to even the slightest degree(as in pushing an attacker away) in jakku, now don't tell me jakku was not dangerous enough alright cuz as the wiki describes it as "Remote, lawless, and inhospitable". So tell me why in the billions of dangerous situations she should have gone through in jakku which allowed her to master the staff, she didn't ever show the slightest talent in the force yet the moment she gets told about the jedi and the rebels, she suddenly turns into a force genius that can move entire mountains and use extremely advanced sith force techniques. *Yeah, you know what? Stop with the bs alright. Rey is not in the slightest worth defending as a character.*

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

My guy, the movie is literally called The Force AWAKENS. It's pretty clear what that means. If that somehow isn't what the title is clearly hinting at, she could have used the Force on Jakku and we just didn't see it? Broom Boy does it and doesn't even seem to clock that he's done it. I don't see how this destroys my argument lol.

[@hamzaimran771]

@@LaughinggCattGiggles no offense mate, but saying things like "she could have done it but we weren't shown it" is a very weak statement and it goes against the very basics of story writing. I.e if frodo in lotr wasn't shown to use magic at the beginning, then in no point in the movie we should expect him to; if he did lotr wouldn't be the legendary movie it is. You seem to misunderstand me, just because someone isn't able to use the force doesn't automatically mean they can never use the force but there is an exception to this rule I.e when you show me a character so talented in the force that she can move mountains and use advanced techniques, the former requires insane force ability and the latter insane force skill. And this character performs all these feats with barely any proof of training her force abilities. I ain't even going to consider your title arguement because last time I remember the name is not a substitute for plot and story. So yes, my arguement still stands Side note: you talking about the broom boy only further reinforces my point. I doubt broom boy is more talented than rey nor does broom boy live on a dangerous place like Jakku yet he was able to use the force to a slight degree. Side note 2: idk if you watch anime or not but there is an anime called cautious hero. It is a comedy anime where the hero is so ridiculously cautious that he prepares for every situation; from a level 1 slime being the demon king to his best allies betraying him. So when he fights enemies with super complicated weaknesses, he immediately pulls things from no where and beats them and we as an audience are fine with it since it is a comedy. But even a show like this takes the time to logically explain how he got the things he has. It doesn't ever feel he is undeserving of the things he has, sure it's ridiculous but fine since it is a comedy

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

@@hamzaimran771 I just don't really understand why it matters if Rey had used the Force before the events of TFA. It's clear she didn't know she had the Force, same as Luke. Why would she use those abilities when she didn't know she had it? And getting into the nitty gritty of Force abilities and "advanced techniques" is something that bores me to no end. That's not what the Force should be about, it isn't some video game where you have a skill tree and upgrade your abilities. I say in the video that you'd need training to become a fully fledged Jedi, but that it doesn't require training to do some shit with the Force. This is shown to us many times in the movies. I don't care to argue this any longer if you're going to claim I'm saying shit that I didn't say, especially when you admitted to not watching the video. For example, I never mention her being related to Palpatine (this video came out before TROS, so I couldn't have). I never said she doesn't need training to do advanced techniques. In fact, I didn't say anything that you bring up in that section of your comment. I actually argue against some of it, like Rey's apparent "skill" with a saber despite just waving it around for the most part. I don't know why you people feel the need to "destroy" my arguments when you don't even know what they are lol. Give the video a chance, it might not be what you think it is. If not, just go away maybe? I don't enjoy arguing with any of you, especially when most of what you're questioning is explained in the video.

[@hamzaimran771]

​@@LaughinggCattGiggles 1. I was not referring to you when i said that rey was related to palpatine, rather i was referring to anyone who defends rey. 2.I'm not only arguing with your video rather I am arguing with the whole concept of rey being acceptable as a character. 3.regardless of whether you like it or not, force training is an actual thing; one does not simply start using the force without trying. If I could compare the force to something it would be the bending in avatar, and just like bending; you need to train in the force to use it. another comparison would be force lightning to lightning bending which is a branch of fire bending and cannot be learnt without training. though there is a big exception to all of this i.e you should be a genius among geniuses. 4.Luke was a prodigy in the force but not once throughout the movies does luke do something far greater than what he was taught i.e luke had the ability to become amazing with time and effort but luke never did feats that even masters would have trouble pulling off, this is unlike rey is shown to be. so yeah luke and rey cannot be compared i.e the former had training and always stayed within those boundaries and the latter was not taught anything but became a master force user anyway. btw make no mistake i'm just calling rey a genius among geniuses for the sake of having a common ground to argue on; because by logic of star wars someone like rey should not exist at all i.e both luke and anakin are supposed to be unparalleled force prodigies 5.now here is where we go back to the same argument again; if rey is such a genius that she doesn't require training then why was she unable to use the force in jakku. you may think that it's not a big deal, but it is i.e her not being able to use the force in jakku ruins the basics of storytelling and characterization; logic i.e logic that dictates a talent of her caliber should have at the very least been able to use the force regardless of the fact if it was efficient in battle or not. side note: you still have not produced one strong argument against mine, the only thing you have said up until now that I can even consider an legitimate argument is that it does not matter whether she used the force on jakku or not. look if you don't even understand basic logic in story writing and characterization then no offense but please delete the near 2 hour vid above. and if you sincerely believe that rey can be defended then by all means come with a legit refute to my main argument.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

​@@hamzaimran771 Instead of hurling all this shit at me, can you please just explain to me what your main argument even is? There's so many words here, I can't respond or keep up with what you're trying to say.

[@traktor420]

The trust qui-gin out into anakin wasn’t unjustified, qui-gon was sure that anakin was the chosen one, and the will of the force would have him win, so he would be trained, and the thing with mace Windu, he already sensed that palpatine was surrounded by the darkside and was incredibly suspicious, when anakin tells him he also later says ‘IF what you’ve told me is true, you will have gained my trust’ this implies he doesn’t trust anakin. Luke tried to help Vader cus he sensed the conflict within him, same with Rey, and anakin was cheerful because he’s a goddamn nine year old, his cheerfulness makes him appear a simple child who doesn’t fully understand his situation, which he is

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

As much as it pains me to remove the current pinned comment, I've finally decided to add some timestamps. This should, in theory, make watching the video easier as there are some long chunks in this video where I don't say a lot and you may be confused as to where to skip. I decided against it initially, due to not wanting context to be removed from what I'm saying. But who cares, have some timestamps, you bloody lunatics. Thanks for watching, if you managed to sit through it. Introduction - 0:00 (duh) What is a Mary Sue? - 5:52 Common Personality Traits of a Mary Sue - 12:15 Common Skill Traits of a Mary Sue - 26:02 Common Physical Appearance Traits of a Mary Sue - 1:00:32 Common Accessory Traits of a Mary Sue - 1:06:27 Common Canon Character Relationship Traits of a Mary Sue - 1:08:50 Common Story Elements with a Mary Sue - 1:17:51 Common Name Traits of a Mary Sue - 1:26:55 Common Presentation Traits of a Mary Sue - 1:28:58 Common Author Investment Traits of a Mary Sue - 1:31:13 All Mary Sue Traits compiled into a ranking of sorts idfk - 1:33:33 All Mary Sue Traits compiled into a ranking, but with other characters this time because why the fuck not we've already gone off the absolute rails at this point and there's no going back someone help - 1:37:37 Conclusion - 1:41:08 (fucking finally)

[@davidpitts5851]

Giggles thank you!!! I have told these same arguments so many times. Your the only youtuber I’ve seen mention the obvious done on purpose and not subtle at all scenes jj specifically shows the audience about the bowcaster, he shows the audience these several times to show the power just like you said. It’s so frustrating that so many people complain about the kylo fight and it’s completely lost on them that he is holding his guts in with the force and bleeding to death. The fact he is having to focus the force on his wound and fight is enough reason for him to lose. So many handicaps against him. Great video. So refreshing.

[@Ruylopez778]

I haven't watched it all, but it seems you're making the point that only a specific number of criteria make a character a "Mary Sue" by definition, while I think the majority of people using the term are using it to describe a badly written character. I think claiming these people don't know what they're talking about misses the point. Whether all the criteria are met or not, what people dislike are characters who succeed when the plot seems to bend in their favor. So I find this to be a rather pedantic take on the conversation. For example, while you complain that most of what Max Landis lists can also be applied to Luke, we see demonstrated in the opening that Luke is able to fix things, and his uncle is dependent on him. We don't see any evidence of why Rey is able to diagnose problems with the falcon, because scavenging parts for money is not the same as repairing things. I think this is the point behind his tweet; the poor way Rey is established, not the traits she has, but how there is no implied reason for her to have them. If you haven't seen it already, you may enjoy this: Literature Devil - Why Rey is a Mary Sue. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gH-bgqBrpJWiibs

[@Ruylopez778]

Some flaws in what you're saying: 16:54 Luke persuades Han by using his motivation [greed - which he has already demonstrated] to convince Han to help rescue Leia. He didn't persuade Han to lower the price of flying them Alderaan. Han is clearly courageous and a risk taker. He's already on the Death Star against his will, so he may as well use the situation to his advantage. He is later critical of Luke also, and his plan. 17:15 This is really odd what you're saying. Kenobi sends a message to Windu. Windu doesn't trust Anakin or Palpatine. He says that the dark side surrounds Palpatine. He sends Anakin to report to Palpatine. Palpatine confess he is a Sith to Anakin. Anakin tells Windu. He's only confirming the suspicions and instinct Windu already has. Anakin THEN insists he go with Windu, "I must go, Master." "No." Not really persuasive in this case. 27:00 The fact Rey "crashes" the ship when taking off - which she admits has not flown in years - is not the problem (although it appears to suffer ZERO damage so no consequences to her "failure"). The problem is that moments later she is expertly in control, flying through destroyers like Lando in the DS, in ROTJ. Talking about other characters being pilots is total BS, mate. We are introduced to Rey as a girl who grew up by herself on a desert planet. We aren't introduced to any of the other characters like that. Even Anakin has his mother and Watto and friends. It's implied Han [etc] learned to be pilot, and we aren't told he grew up alone are we? 29:00 Being a scavenger doesn't make you a mechanic. She may have been on the Falcon before but it isn't established she is a mechanic in her introduction. We are repeatedly told she is alone. That is her one note character; lonely/alone wanting to be part of something. 29:00 Equally BS argument. Leia has been part of the rebellion for years at this point. She is highly competent, as demonstrated in ANH on the Death Star. She isn't raised by herself on a desert planet. Not to mention Lando, who was able to check the functions of Solo in carbon in ESB was both a comrade and within Jabba's place. Pressing switches is different to controlling someone's mind with a technique you've never seen. 30:00 You're comparing Luke using the Force to augment the natural ability he has to shoot 2m sized targets, after we have seen him already use his instincts to deflect attacks with the lightsaber using his instincts and the Force. That's totally different from controlling someone else, using a trick you have never seen before. 31:00 "Guess what fuckers he does it with no training" Gonna call BS on this, too. This isn't about "training" it's about EXPLANATION. Training is an explanation for how a character can so something. We know already that Qui-Gon, a Jedi knight, can sense an ability in Anakin, and he has been tested for midi-chlorians [yikes, but anyway...] which are "higher than Master Yoda". Given this information, and having seen Anakin pilot a pod racer, we aren't really surprised that Anakin has latent ability. It's rather clumsily explained there was no father either, so he is the "chosen one" in Qui-Gon's mind - and he is an expert character, who we trust in this story, because he has demonstrated his competency. It's equally worth noting that while Anakin can pass this test, he isn't approved for training, and the Council reject Qui-Gon's request. So this skill doesn't benefit Anakin. On the other hand, Rey uses the mind trick to escape - which clearly affects the plot. This is an essential problem with the sequel trilogy - people are hung up over what elements of the Force or combat skills that Rey should or shouldn't be able to have based on "training". It's the wrong argument. The argument is; what does the story DEMONSTRATE about what competencies the character has and how they got them, or how they are implied to have got them? It's implied Luke is needed on the farm, so it's implied he knows how to repair things. This isn't true of Rey. What's implied is she knows the inherent value of items she has scavenged. The audience is left wondering, "How the fuck did Rey know how to do that?" It's bad writing that we can't put it together based on previous information demonstrated IN THE MOVIE. You can bitch that people lack imagination, but you don't need to imagine how Luke was able to fire the shot. Aside from the fact we already saw Red Leader get close. The flaw in the sequels was introducing Rey as someone who's always been alone. Who taught her to do all this things? Obviously it was supposed to be like Anakin, where she has a huge latent ability. There's two problems with that; one many people found the latent ability Anakin rather annoying, and two when you have a massively competent character, you also have to give them major flaws in their personality, e.g. Anakin, Sherlock Holmes, Tony Stark. Rey isn't like that though. She may be lonely and needing validation, and almost flirt with going dark occasionally, but she's generally a really positive and earnest personality who is altruistic for no particular reason. Why does she want to help the rebels and BB8? There's no reason. I expect the rest of your video is equally full of arguments that lack foundation, not sure if I can be bothered, with your repeatedly insulting people and cat photo.

[@Ruylopez778]

Rey is also continually surprised and confused by her abilities. Anakin uses them instinctively, without necessarily intended to, but he doesn't make a point to the audience of asking them why he can do it in TPM.

[@Ruylopez778]

34:00 "We're never given any explanation of this" But it is clearly after Luke has used the Force in ANH. It's implied, by the story that Han and Luke have both become important to the rebellion. Again, it's not like Rey, who we've been told grew up alone. While it may be the first time someone grabs something, we've already seen Vader choke a man across a room, so clearly telekinesis is part of the Force ability. 37:00 The movie tells us stormtroopers are trained from birth. While Rey is being thrown against a tree (and uninjured) Finn fights Kylo. Finn has clearly had some training. Finn holds his own for a little bit and then loses to Kylo. But Rey doesn't lose to Kylo. So what's going on here? Kylo can fight or he can't with his bowcaster injury? What is Kylo going to learn about fighting from Snoke and Luke? So Luke set up his Jedi Academy, and Ben thinks Anakin's lightsaber is his, but he didn't learn how to use a lightsaber? Luke is far better with a lightsaber in ESB and ROTJ than Rey in TFA, so we can assume he has more to teach than Rey knows. 39:00 Rey closes her eyes to tap in the Force in the duel - but what training is she remembering? She wasn't shown anything. Han didn't teach her anything. Maz just gave her a pep talk. From a narrative point of view, it just removes all stakes if the protagonist beats the antagonist in their first encounter of a trilogy. Note that Kylo had to be shot BEFORE the duel, so that Rey could win ON HER OWN, rather than Kylo getting shot to save Rey in the duel (which would have made much more sense, given that he is supposed to be intimidating, and we are supposed to be TENSE about whether Rey will survive). 41:00 I think the point is that she drops into water, but there are absolutely zero consequences (like most times something goes wrong for her). She doesn't need to be saved, she isn't afraid of the island. Imagine if she had taken the lightsaber and dropped it - that would have been an actual consequence. 43:00 Kind of undermine yourself here; you previously said that Luke and Snoke didn't have much to teach Kylo about fighting, but are pointing out Kylo is better a fighter to prove that Rey is lucky against the praetorians [admittedly they are different movies, but the point being when Kylo stops the shot in mid air from Poe and fights the praetorians he is shown to be a total badass, and when he fight Rey he seemingly isn't] Also what makes the guard fight so dull is that we don't know anything about these guards and don't care. That's why lightsaber duels are best when two important characters fight each other. This is the equivalent of Obi-Wan and Anakin chopping wood with droids in the PT that everyone complained about.

[@Mistashiba]

rey just isn't a compelling character, that's the main problem with her

[@intoxen3766]

MrMemer420 I think that’s TLJ calling, in my opinion. I saw it as, learn from your mistakes, and build yourself rather than letting someone tell you what you are. To each his own though.

[@Mistashiba]

@@intoxen3766 the problem with that is, rey does make mistakes and thats great. the problem is she leaves kylo ren after failing to turn him over to the light and learning that her parents are nobodies who sold her off. next time we see her she seems perfectly fine and completely undamaged or even emotionally unaffected so it doesnt land the way it should.

[@grumpykoala4796]

Good work, shill.

[@techno639]

Good work, go back to your boss, Jeremy

[@James35142]

Luke trained for four days on the trip to Alderaan, and for a month with Yoda. Rey gets a babytalk lesson and seings her stick and Luke's lightsaber at a rock. I'm supposed to believe they went on the same or even a similar journey. Using a staff does not teach you sword combat. Scrapping ships does not teach you how to fly a ship. I doubt she knows what the controls do, and she outmaneuvered tie fighters, ships known for their maneuverability. Rey was a starving girl growing up without any reserves of food, and she fights a man to a standstill. And before you say, "uh, but the bowcaster wound", he was not leaving a trail of blood everywhere he went, and he was swinging his lightsaber just fine. He would not lose to a starving orphan. In the last jedi, she SWIMS! Growing up on a desert planet, with little to no water and she knows how to SWIM!

[@Jaasielaomdrech]

I loved how you went about the topic, well thought out and put together. I definitely don't think the video needed to be as long. Nit picking isn't bad but isn't needed here. What it comes down to is i think is JJ not having sole responsibility in creating and forging rays character. Outside influences other then making a good movie had much more involvement then normal with this trilogy. Kathleen Kennedy for one trying to tweak star wars away from its well established audience who loved almost everything about it.

[@KagetheMage98]

You're gonna love the ROS

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

I've got bad news for you, lad.

[@KagetheMage98]

Oh what would that be

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

@@KagetheMage98 Well, I already watched it twice and I don't like it. Sorry, chief.

[@KagetheMage98]

@@LaughinggCattGiggles lol

[@gamestation2690]

@@LaughinggCattGiggles I wish I could provide you with defenses for it.

[@thickblacklava760]

Rey isn't a Mary Sue, but a character doesn't need to be a self insert to be a Mary Sue. The best definition of Mary Sue I heard was from the Trope Talk KZbin series. It was something to effect of this: a Mary Sue is a character that the world revolves around. A Mary Sue is a character that everyone's always talking about, they have superficial flaws, they're never wrong, and everyone loves them. The characters unfortunate enough to hate Mary Sue, or even just disagree with her, are necessarily villains that will constantly face humiliation.

[@dmc2076]

Your argument doesn't really hold up given that Luke doesn't seem to like her (he only agrees to teach her to show her that the Jedi are failures and deserve to die off), and the ending of the film has Luke face his mistakes and return to save his sister and what's left of the Resistance by standing down an entire army and humiliating the main villain of the film. Not exactly what I'd call "constantly fac(ing) humiliation."

[@thickblacklava760]

@@dmc2076I don't think she's a Mary Sue

[@suckmyass7368]

@DarthVader 0405 She also killed Snoke

[@gamestation2690]

@@suckmyass7368 No, she didn't, Kylo did.

[@johngoldfield6602]

Rey is a marysue she has all the typical traits shes overpowered people like her for no reason shes talented in alot of things she outshines all the other characters not to mention shes a power fantasy of a certain lucasfilm president. also in a side by side comparison with the original marysue, they share similar plot sequences like being able to escape being kidnapped without being detected and inheritimg an iconic spaceship from an iconic womanizing captain. its really not hard to see that Rey is a marysue. the only difference is that Rey is a marysue unironically which is very sad

I'm almost five minutes in to this video and he hasn't made a SINGLE POINT yet. At some point I'm coming to the view that this is a thimble-full of information and argument and ten TONS of talking about how he's really the right person and the objective person and everyone else is somehow wrong: which is precisely what he claims everyone else is doing. Five minutes and nothing yet.

[@countnowayneophobic-wc4037]

You are wrong in absolutly every argument. You absolutly lose contact to the context of the Arc of real Star Wars and the Jedi. You deny the very idea for what philosophy and the defininition of subjectivity and objectivity are. Rey is not a Mary Sue because she is "overpowered" out of context. Rey is a Mary Sue seen in the Context to what the Jedi Arc and Star Wars means. She is the perfect definition of a Mary Sue because she reaches things without explanation in the shortest time, for which all other main Characters needed Decades of evolution and even then havn't reached her Powers. Thats ridiculous. And Training is absolutly important to use the Force. Canon has never left any doubt in this. The point is, if it would be that easy to use the Force without training, there would be way more Force Users in that Galaxy, because its a natural gift which can happen by coincidence. Considering the Roots in ancient asian Traditions, its even more important, because its part of the spiritual message of Star Wars as a basic, which is adoptable into real life, proven by the abilitys of daoist and chan buddhist monks. What further is part of the basic idea of this modern Myth, to remind us, that there is more out there than the eyes can see. And Rey Story Arc destroys this very message. Your Midntrick argument is a contradiction on the deepest level of your own argument. If ther eis no training needed to use the force, it should even for "weak minded" be easy to use it....because no training is needed. A weak mind is just a NOT TRAINED mind. What are you stating here....some kind of classes? What is Rey then? Overpowered in the mind, compared to a normal Stormtrooper? Contraictions over Contradictions. She is a Mary Sue, because how is she even able to differentiate her mind from the mind of another person, when she never had the chance to learn to differentiate this? When things make sense these Movies are considered GOOD! This just makes no sense in context to that, what we have learned about the Teachings of the Jedi. By the Way: A Stuff is NOT a sword. I'm a trained Shaolin and there is no way, that she can use a sword, when she has learned to use her specific staff. Thats a complete other handling. Her staff is heavy, LIGHT has no weight, a light saber must react completely different. You have no counterweight like the staff. Normally she must have huirt herself playing around with that thing, as if it is nothing. That whole thing is ridiculous. And no: Snoke is a ridiculous Character. Its not that Kylo can do everything....Snoke and the whole arc is just badly written. That Dude ias absolutly nothing worth. And all the things happened to rey have NO impact on her. She just walks through there. There is never a doubt, that she will not succeed. That makes her a Mary Sue. A Girl grown on the Street, tought herself on the Street, to use a Stuff, winning over Elite Guards of the highest Leader of the biggest threat in the Galaxy is the dumbest plot i've ever seen. What exactly have those Guards done to become elite Guards, that they are won over by a Street Girl who never had Training. Try that in real life and you will be very surprised. Just try to fight a trained marine and your will know, what i mean. Those Guys destroy you in seconds. Thats not realtable. Thats not a good arc and that makes her nothing but a Mary Sue. When we would have seen her with some kind of Techer in the first Movie...someone with knowledge....and she would have been written as a Polit of dsome sort, this whole discussion would bedifferent. But she isn't. She is just a absolute impossible Character. Thjere is nothing to learn or to grasp of her. She is the perfect Game Cheat. Her obstacles are no obstacles. Its just a Game you play with the major Cheat. By the way, to you humble recognition: Force Ghosts are the Very PROOF, that the Roots of the Jedi Techings are to find in Daoist Techings. Which makes the Message of the OT even more important, because we deal with a functional existing thing and also teaching. To reach the Afterlife as a Concious Astral Being in daoism is reached by developing the amount and bounding to Yang Chis, which is the creative Side of Yin and Yang. The traditional teachings are very clear about this. The idol of the Daoist is the immortal Warrior in difference to Buddha for the Buddhists, which lack the "Force Ghost" or immoratal Warrior background. Means: The Jedi reaching the immortal Status known as Force Ghost, is a sign for them having reached a specific level of TRAINING!!!!! and understanding. To be clear, Star Wars was one of the points why i searched for this Knowledge and it was the structure of the message, which made me search. Its the destruction of this message for modern Generations, which anger me, because you people think today, that makes no difference because its just phantasie. That is the first false conclusion. It isn't. Its a modern Legend transporting ancient wisdom in a very special way..

[@RonyH7]

ok boomer.

[@countnowayneophobic-wc4037]

@@RonyH7 When you have no clue, its better to say nothing.

[@countnowayneophobic-wc4037]

@@RonyH7 BOOM! Hahaha www.news.com.au/entertainment/movies/upcoming-movies/what-went-wrong-with-disneys-star-wars/news-story/e8e73df49060fda31936fa72351191b3#share-and-comment

[@RonyH7]

@@countnowayneophobic-wc4037 ok boomer.

[@countnowayneophobic-wc4037]

@@RonyH7 O.K. freshling

[@sorencole]

The force is like any other religion. Except its it work for believers in star wars. A good point is Han shooting a stormtropper on Takodana behind him without looking in ep 7. He was even surpriced by it.

[@LorraineMcFly]

Rey is my favorite character in Star Wars! She's just such a badass!

[@raulholik4395]

Yea thats the problem she is badass for no reason

[@LorraineMcFly]

Not true. She's had to learn to defend herself after years on Jakku.

[@raulholik4395]

@@LorraineMcFly yea but not with a lightsaber

[@LorraineMcFly]

But a staff is almost identical to a lightsaber. Just made out of different materials.

[@raulholik4395]

@@LorraineMcFly thats a joke right?

[@anthonydeperino2046]

I love how you claim that people are biased and picky about the shit they choose to show their audiences without providing the full story then you do the same exact shit. For example you say a trait of a mary sue is someone who tries to help people for no reason out of the kindness of their hearts even if it's someone who they have no connection too. Then you say luke and Rey fall into this category when luke really doesn't if that were true he would've not only helped his father but also sideous turn back to the light. Also the whole argument of him having characteristics Mary sue because he wants HIS FATHER to be NOT A SHITTY PERSON ANYMORE and be the father to luke that he didn't have growing up (yes he had uncle owen and he probably did a great job but there's always that what could have been that nags at luke and drives him to redeem his father) provides both a personal connection and a reason that isnt "out of the kindness of their heart" or however you put it. While Rey on the other hand sees kylo kill his own father someone that over the course of a few days at the very least seemed to care about considering her reaction when Han died, and then in the next movie does a 180 and says yeah he's not so bad I'm gonna help him cuz that's the right thing to do. Like why the fuck would she do that for no reason "oh but there's still good in him!" Yeah maybe but you don't know this guy at all and you still risk your own life to go after him and save him, And on top of that it doesn't fit her character of being untrusting since she grew up on a desert planet on which people tried to beat her up and screw her over like all the time (and if you say that's not true then how would you explain how she can fight so well with a staff she had to learn to defend herself) so this fits a characteristic of a Mary sue Which you went over in the video and I give you props for but still your not being nearly as objective as you think. Another example is when you said everyone instantly agreeing with Anikian and everyone who sides against him being portrayed as stupid or evil. When in the phantom menace the jedi council says that they shouldn't take Anikian because they sense a strong darkside to him. Which is a completly logical and valid point not saying it's the morally correct decision but it's not a dumb one either nor does it portray the council as being idiots they are just causious. The dumb thing would be to take the jedi in right away just because he's strong in the force and train him. And before you say "Thats what happened!!!" No it wasn't Obi-Wan went against the will of the council just like quigon gin planned to do and trained the boy even tho the council didn't agree with him. Which is why in the later movies the council specifically mace are against him being granted the rank of master because they almost feel like even tho they have known him his whole life he doesn't belong with them and shouldn't have been taken in to begin with. So that's another point debunked I would keep going but I'd rather not waste an 1/30min of my life listening to you being "unbiased" and "objective" as you claim and move on with my life. And before someone calls me a toxic white male or some shit no I don't think Rey is a Mary sue but I don't agree with a lot of this video because it is objectively wrong and bends the truth and I'm only 20 mins into it. The only real problem I have with Rey is that she learns these force powers with barely any effort and no training. And before someone says "well what about luke." He didn't fucking mind trick someone 3rd try without even knowing that was a thing. All he did was shoot a pew pew and made a boom boom calling on the force for some guidance something that HE TRAINED TO DO when he called on the force to guide his lightsaber to block in coming shots from that training Droid. And some people are saying him pulling the lightsaber in the second movie is a Gary sue thing also and that's pretty fucking stupid considering a YEAR passed in between those movies and what the fuck are you supposed to do when you just find out you got super powers? Idk maybe experiment and find out what you can do like maybe I can pull a stick off the floor I mean shit if a 7 year old can do it with no training and just experimentation in the last jedi I'm sure a 20 something could figure it out within a year. Rant over return to your drinks.

[@anthonydeperino2046]

Oh and one last thing Rey didn't know she was force sensitive so she couldn't have figured out how to mind trick people like you point out in the video. And then the kid knowing how to use the force??? Idk ask Rian Johnson even tho he probably won't know either. Plus the mind trick is a skill that you need to actually train and get better at its not something that you can stumble across like a force pull or something simple natured like that. Maybe you can make the argument that she was more persuasive in general because she's so strong in the force but that still doesn't show how she knows how to mind trick. For example say in the force awakens she gets really frustrated at the guard and just starts saying LET ME OUT over and over again and then after a bit of that she like accidently taps into the force or like pulls from her emotions and loses Control and demands to be let out (aka the dark side) and then the guard suddenly let's her go and she's just really confused about what's going on then I can see that being cool and ok. But no she knew exactly how to mind trick someone effortlessly and was barely taken back that she did it Besides a quick Ah Ha moment.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

I get the feeling you don't really love that I claim people are biased and picky. No one's forcing you to watch this. Don't like the video? Fair enough.

[@anthonydeperino2046]

Giggles no I just don't like that you claim to be unbiased but then proceeded to be biased. Basically I hate hypocrites. But I actually did go back and watch the whole video for the most part and I understand what your purpose was now it wasn't to call anyone a mary sue it was to show how stupid that term was and how it couldn't apply to anyone unless they authors specifically wrote them that way. Personally for me it still doesn't excuse Rey of being super overpowered for bullshit lazy writing reasons but hey whatever. And I still think you could've gotten this point across in a video that wasn't almost 2 hours long tho. Probably 40-60 if you cut out all the stupid catagorys that didn't apply or cut back on shit talking people that didn't like Rey. Like you did a lot of that in the first half. But yeah my criticisms against her still stand but I get your video now and I never really thought she was a mary sue so I guess that opinion is still the same.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

@@anthonydeperino2046 Just want to point out that if I did shit talk people in the video, it wasn't directed towards people that dislike the character. It was more towards people that considered Rey a Mary Sue, which I suppose isn't any better. Otherwise, fair enough. There are definitely things that I would change about the video. I appreciate the criticism.

[@anthonydeperino2046]

Giggles yeah I get it the values of hindsight. Thanks for responding to me though it's nice to see you can take criticism like this and not be an ass like some other youtubers that have responded to me.

[@motor4X4kombat]

23:27 don't forget leía not acting like a depress person after loosing her entire home planet in a new hope, sure shes kinda whinny but she was like that at the beggining of the film and at the end she act like everything Is concluded.... Something that the NEW leia wouldn't do.

[@El-Silver]

I desagree with a couple of things 1) Luke in a new hope ( and you showed the exhaust port ) but Luke said in the movie that he did similar shots 1:30 kzbin.info/www/bejne/ioDKpZ1mZbejbtU (I to bull eye wamprats back home and their no bigger than 2 meters) I agree force sensitives can use the force to a mild degree with out training. 2) rey not being a good duelist ... Ok .. shad as a hema practicioner I agree with shad it's horrible One this is the problem of creography ( Wich in the last Jedi sucks by way ) But that's not the bad thing the bad thing is that kylo who has had training is just as bad as her But the biggest morons where the guard I mean for example the second knife of the guard desapears Or 3 guards at the beginning all going for Anakin's saber not her Or the fact that a "guard" is putting you sword above your arm Or why did the guard try to choke kylo when he could have just moved his weapon and cut his throat. It's an expample of bad cerography which if it was for rey , because she is inexperienced But kylo and the guards figth just as bad and the case of the guards figth worse than her . These are supposed to be trained yet they act like monkeys with sword especially the guards who beacuse of them My suspetion of disbelief can only go as far this isn't a Jackie Chan comedy when one can do these things 3) Luke pulling a saber 5 feet doesn't equal a Jedi mind trick force pull is one of the most basic force powers Mind tricks are one of the most complex ones And even then he stugled 4) the eyes for the mary sue argument is stupid really eye color Mary Sue (who wrote the websites) Also no Anakin's eyes are not inconsistent , he is killing people and filled with the darkside . While I agree that she is not a Mary Sue it's still bad writing worse than Anakin chosen one And Anakin well if Anakin is a Mary sue .... XD anakin Jezz Anakin is the most human character in the franchise. The problem I have with Rey is that I dislike her because she is boring And I hate that she is boring

[@TrueMohax]

The thing about Mary Sues is that they warp reality around themselves. (Huh, wonder if that’s like some sort of Force Bubble. There’s a thought) The most competent characters will act stupid in order to make the Mary Sue look better.

[@El-Silver]

@@TrueMohax that explains why kylo and specially the guards act like idiots with swords

[@TrueMohax]

Golden Silver 81 Rey acts stupid as well. When the guard had the whip wrapped around her lightsaber she for some reason let him get close. The amount of force being pulled from the blade would’ve angled it to be parallel with the ground where the whip would simply slip off. But Rey created a counter force by keeping it angled up, creating an opportunity for him to draw closer. Now I wouldn’t mind so much if the whip was wrapped around her hands, forcing them closed and unmovable. But that doesn’t happen and she wins anyways.

[@El-Silver]

@@TrueMohax that's ok because she is unexpirienced but why does the guard prodiced to choke her rather than finish he off? On that note there is the infamous second dager despaearing scene on which the guard would have killed her had his second dagger still been there

[@nomticholas]

Great video!!! The analysis of Rey's flaws is excellent and I really appreciate this video as a whole.

[@TrueMohax]

What flaws?

[@gamestation2690]

@@TrueMohax She is stubborn and hardheaded, is too hung up on her parents, has abandonment issues, is emotionally immature, and overconfident in her abilities.

[@darthlordrevan8307]

"Talent without training is nothing"- Luke Skywalker "To wield it takes a great deal of training and discipline"- Ahsoka Tano

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

I mean, sure I guess? I don't really get your point. Obviously training will refine and improve your skills, but you can still use the Force without formal or extensive training, as we have seen Rey, Luke and Anakin all do.

[@stefan6347]

And of course this person has Revan in their name. And I can also pull quotes out of context, "Wars not make one great," then why is Anakin a war general?

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

@@stefan6347 Yeah, just cause a character says something doesn't mean it's necessarily a fair point to paste onto everything.

[@dangerdash4393]

@@LaughinggCattGiggles And how far would Luke and Anakin have gone without any form of actual training? Hell, the great Sith genocide happened because while the Sith were able to tap into the force, the Jedi studied and learned to master it. Rey had only just learned the force is a real thing, and hours later she best a trained dueling, a few days later she's taking on trained Jedi killers and winning...do I really need to point out what's wrong with this picture?

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

@@dangerdash4393 Luke and Anakin did fairly well for themselves initially without actual training. The Force just kind of comes to you when you are in need of it. That's how I've always seen it at least, I could be wrong. And forgive me for being presumptuous, but I can't help but feel like you didn't actually watch my video. I say this because I explain all of this in the video, more or less. Rey always knew what the Force was. When she asks Han, she says it in a way that infers she's known about it. She's heard stories of the Jedi for seemingly a considerable amount of her life, so we can very easily assume she knows what the Force is. Unlike say, Luke, who asks Obi-Wan what it is because he doesn't have a clue. To say Rey beats a trained duelist is technically true, but only if you remove all context from the scene. Kylo Ren is injured (emotionally and physically, with a shot that usually sends people fucking flying) and he isn't actually trying to defeat Rey. He has orders from Snoke to capture Rey and bring her to him. If he was really trying to kill or best her, he would have done so with ease (as we see in TROS, a year or so after TLJ where Rey has had far more training, and yet she still loses). He had a good ten seconds while he was just staring at her as she was backed up against a cliff face, but it wasn't his intent. Where is it ever stated that the Praetorian guards are Jedi killers? I know Kylo was once referred to as that, but I don't recall hearing it. You also word it as if Rey takes them all on by herself, when this is blatantly false. Kylo helps her out a LOT, taking on at least two or three of the guards at any given time while Rey takes them on one at a time. Hopefully that clears it up. I'm not looking for another argument on Star Wars, but I can tell you most likely didn't watch the video(which is fine), but it's like also the bare minimum of what I'd ask if you're going to comment on said video. I understand it's a long piece of shit, but I think it's only fair to give it a try if you have not. Have a good day otherwise.

[@waywardjoker6061]

Until recently, I genuinely disliked the last jedi, but honestly after watching literal 100 paragraph essays like this, I have to say that you give a stronger argument than 99.9% of the opposition.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

Damn, that's high praise. I don't even remember what I said about TLJ.

[@waywardjoker6061]

@@LaughinggCattGiggles Well that's a mood killer... Your wife/girlfriend must be so proud.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

​@@waywardjoker6061 They are both extremely proud, yes.

[@jkiser1]

Wow!! this was like listening to one remarkably long unbroken sentence!

[@jxomxo]

jkiser1 did you watch the fucking video?

[@spacecase8888]

What people need to realize and accept is that in the treatments that George Lucas wrote for the sequel trilogy before he sold Lucasfilm to Disney, he had Luke Skywalker being a disillusioned and reclusive hermit living at a remote Jedi temple after having tried and failed to create a new Jedi order. When the female protagonist shows up (in his treatments, named Kira) Luke is very reluctant to train her. So The Last Jedi was pretty much was what Lucas had intended for Luke all along. It wasn’t J.J., it wasn’t Rian, it was George Lucas who set that up as his characterization for that period of his life.

[@Chamerlengo]

You make decent arguments but a lot of it is lost on how immature you are in calling people who disagree with you an idiot like every 5 min. If you have confidence in your arguments then just make them. You shouldn’t have to diminish the intelligence of people who disagree with you while making your point

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

I was mostly just trying to show how silly a lot of the arguments people make are. I wasn't trying to attack anyone specifically. I apologize if I offended you, but I'm not going to flash up text saying "It's a joke" or "I'm being hyperbolic" when I don't see the need to. I don't have anything against people who disagree with me, a lot of it was in jest and I thought my tone would convey that. I guess not.

[@Chamerlengo]

Giggles you didn’t offend me , I just wanted to share the observation. You actually convinced me that she isn’t a Mary Sue. As a force user she struck me as overpowered but to be fair if she really was always meant to end up being a Palpatine then maybe she should be overpowered.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

@@Chamerlengo Ah okay. Well, I'm glad to hear that. I appreciate you taking the time to not only watch the video but also share some criticism. I believe that JJ always wanted Rey to be a Skywalker, but couldn't do it because of the whole Reylo thing, so he made her a Palpatine instead. I think this is especially evident given the ending of TROS. I don't take issue with you thinking she's overpowered, I wouldn't massively disagree. The way it's told to us in the movie, it's as if Rey and Ben are like the most powerful Force users we've ever seen.

[@gamestation2690]

@@LaughinggCattGiggles "I believe that JJ always wanted Rey to be a Skywalker." Yeah, well, I'd much KNOW if he did, instead of just ASSUMING that he did.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

@@gamestation2690 Okay, I'll just go and ask my good pal JJ Abrams lol. How's this my problem?

[@bclap06able]

I've been seeing rey and kylo as the ying yeung... and the whole "balance of the force".... neither side will ever win ultimately... hence why after return of the jedi... the empire didnt die off...

[@NEEKNerdGeek]

Rey is no more of a mary sue then Luke or Anakin is

[@dangerdash4393]

Both Luke and Anakin had training and a lot of help, and in Anakin's case he lost his way and fell to the dark side completely. Rey doesn't really have any training for the things she does.

[@louismarano953]

Rey is my favorite character in Star Wars so I was happy to see a positive video 😂

[@traktor420]

So in conclusion, everyone in Star Wars is a Mary Sue,

[@xPurpleDrinkx9001]

Oh cmon! Luke looks totally ugly before he screams NO in Empire. 6/10 video only because of this. ;)

[@dariel-prototype7428]

Huh found you in another comment section I see

[@da-vidcargill4975]

you may need to update this video after ep 9 , since she is related to the emperor

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

Yo yea yea yea.

[@notmarcsidiousfernandez2760]

You talk way too damn fast. Slow tf down

[@RayOfTruth]

Then people would complain the video is even longer.

[@TrueMohax]

z3ke_sk1さん There’s a complaint that he speaks too fast, and you go and make it worse. Lol

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

I don't disagree.

[@dariel-prototype7428]

I'd love to debate the topic with you, in a civil way of course. And not to prove you wrong, but to find some common ground on the matter

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

Sounds fair. Though if I'm being honest with you, I sort of made this video as a get out of jail free card so that if ever I ended up in a debate, I could just link this video instead. But I'd be okay with debating, I'm sure we could find common ground.

[@dariel-prototype7428]

@@LaughinggCattGiggles Cool, i appreciate that! I don't know where we can debate it, but the when can be in the weekend after I get back home

[@dariel-prototype7428]

@@LaughinggCattGiggles so how shall we discuss the topic, discord?

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

@@dariel-prototype7428 Yeah, that works for me. Sorry I didn't respond, I went dark so as to not get anything spoiled. I don't really know how Discord works, but my # number thingy is #0877. I guess you'd just write in Giggles and that number? I'm not sure.

[@LorraineMcFly]

Finally. Someone in this comments section with some actual sense.

[@kingvince7328]

The only thing that amazes me in this video is how condescending you are. You, out of everyone else, knows what a mary sue is, but we lowly peasants only "think" we know? 😂😂 What if you're just wrong, and she is a mary sue? If you need a 1:46:09 video just to use a gish gallop to convince everyone that she isnt, when plenty of people have made 5-15 minute videos explaining why she is in a much more condensed way, then you are in the wrong. And if that's not enough, the definition of mary sue itself leaves it open to interpretation of what a mary sue is. So for you to tell everyone else that we're the ones who dont actually know and you do, is so condescending 😂 Mary sue: (originally in fan fiction) a type of female character who is depicted as unrealistically lacking in flaws or weaknesses. This is open to interpretation on who you consider a mary sue. And I definitely consider rey one.

[@cleverpsyche115]

You're missing a massive part of the Mary Sue: the whole universe revolves around them. Rey doesn't fit that qualification, since things still happen without her. Maybe things kinda are affected by her leaving, but I don't think it's large enough to make her the center of the new universe. If you've got problems with her, fine, but don't claim she's a Mary Sue, she's just a less than stellarly written character.

[@kingvince7328]

@@cleverpsyche115 Well first of all the term mary sue is subjective by the actual definition. This guy can claim that everyone else is wrong and he's right but all it takes is a simple google search to know that. And to me, she's a mary sue. Now, she may not be a mary sue to everyone, but she's a horribly written character.

[@min-min562]

King Vince But there is a difference between an badly written character and a Mary Sue. You have every right to think she was poorly written, but you can’t claim she’s a Mary Sue just from that. Personally, I like Rey but it doesn’t bother me when people call her a Mary Sue; what does bother me are people assigning that term for her but not Luke or Anakin when they’re just as guilty.

[@kingvince7328]

@@min-min562 Luke is not just as guilty. You shouldn't just believe everything a youruber tells you. As much as it might pain you to do, go back and watch the original trilogy and then see if you can say the same thing when you're done. There's a reason you're In such a small minority here when it comes to rey dude, she's a horrible character. And by most people's definition of a mary sue, she's a mary sue. Which to me is: near flawless but not entirely, gets everything handed to them, never experiences or almost never experiences losses (which rey is the queen of winning. Even beating kylo ren in mind reading in a interrogation scene with almost NO FORCE TRAINING 😂) and much more. All luke did was help guide his senses and also got help from han solo to blow up the death star. It was mostly his skill and the help from han solo, his force abilities merely guided his senses. Rey just full out went "Oh, I'm super powerful and can do this simply because the writers want me to? Sweet!"

[@min-min562]

King Vince I feel like we’ve watched two completely different movies. From what I saw, all of Rey’s “victories” are due to the fact the her opponent was going easier on her or she had help from another character. In the interrogation scene, it is heavily implied that Kylo wasn’t going in as hard with Rey. Just watch the difference between his treatment of Rey and Poe. You can also look at Snoke’s abuse of Rey in the throne room. When a superior force user actually tries against her, she can’t do anything about it. In her fight against Kylo, it’s already been stated but he was heavily injured, tired from previous fights, and mentally unstable from killing Han. In TLJ Snoke states the even though he killed Han the act “split him” or something along those lines. He wasn’t in the best of states and in addition, he didn’t want to kill her. He wanted to turn her to the dark side and become her teacher. In the throne room fight scene, Rey was about to get killed if Kylo didn’t intervene. She struggled to fight 3 guards when he fought double almost without a sweat. I get it, much of Rey’s character comes from backstory. I would have liked to have seen more training scenes too but you have to consider that Rey spent most of her childhood on a hostile planet. During her time there she had to defend herself and become knowledgeable in the ships that she scavenges. She starts at a different stage than Anakin and Luke because her childhood circumstances are different. Lastly, Rey’s character journey centers more around emotional conflict rather than physical. Her main purpose isn’t to go around fighting, it’s to find her belonging and purpose. It isn’t like Luke where he had to defeat Vader or Anakin where he was the chosen one. And as we’ve seen she’s had failures in trying to get past her childhood trauma. In TFA she still holds on to the idea that her parents come back, she immediately looks at Han like a father figure, she fails to get Luke to rejoin the resistance, and she fails to get Kylo back to the light side. At the end of the day we’re all entitled to our opinions so I would appreciate that you don’t treat people who have differing views as you as dumb. Just because we interpreted things differently doesn’t mean you have to be so condescending.

[@ch0getsu]

Again Anakin had 10years of training between. Episode 1 and 2. You can even find comics about it.

[@SunlightGwyn]

8:11 Dude, those are the things Rey could do when she had zero training. When Luke had zero training he was a just a farmer that had no exceptional skills outside of being a good pilot. He was not a master mechanic that could fix hyperdrives better than Han, he couldn't fight Sith lords and win on his first try without any training, he was not a martial artist master with a staff, he was not a climber or repeller. He isnt multilingual either. Luke had to train to use the force for YEARS to be a good lightsaber duelist and force user. And he still lost his first battle against a Sith. He didn't use mind manipulation until the 3rd movie. Rey did all of this in the first movie when she never even held a lightsaber before.

[@neosoontoretro]

Er, Luke used the force to blow up the Death Star with little to zero training. Also, you talk about Luke being a good pilot but who exactly taught Luke to be a good pilot? And how exactly did he become lightsaber duelist when Kenobi wasn't there to train him?

[@SunlightGwyn]

@@neosoontoretro It's not a problem for a force sensitive person to be able to use the force to some extent without training. The problem is Rey is able to perform BETTER than people that have trained for years to be Jedi and Sith. She was able to mind control a Stormtrooper, which is a high level Jedi technique, without training. She was able to not only resist Kylo Ren's mind probing, but was able to reverse it and read HIS MIND. Again, no training. Luke on the other hand WAS trained by Obiwan in A New Hope. He was taught to use a lightsaber, deflect blaster bolts, sense things before they happen and to focus his mind connection with the force. And even with that training, he did not blow up the Death Star alone. Han saved him from Vader and his guards at the last second and Obi wan's ghost guided him during the shot. Luke had TONS OF HELP and he still struggled. Rey had no help and she never struggles. Remember when Luke struggled to lift a handful of small rocks when Yoda (the greatest Jedi Master ever) was guiding him? Rey lifted hundreds of gigantic boulders on her own with no help. If she isn't a Mary Sue, nobody is.

[@gamestation2690]

You need training to become a Jedi, not training to use the Force.

[@cybernnic]

@@neosoontoretro everyone can swing a lightsaber, the problem is tackling someone when you have zero experience and the enemy is way more powerful.

[@cybernnic]

Also, Yoda trained Luke. You can see this by simply wacthing ep.5 and 6.

[@GHOST-zy3ji]

Rey goes from 0 zero knowledge of even the existence of the Force, to a PERFECT Jedi with powers never seen before... Nonsense, a Complete Mary Sue

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

No, she knew about the Force before the events of the movie. Give it a rewatch and pay attention to her reaction when Han tells her and Finn about the Jedi.

[@GHOST-zy3ji]

Giggles knowing in the sense that as a myth watch the movie Han says the force and Jedi they are real so that tell us that as far as she knows Jedi and the force myths or stories that doesn’t make you skillful on something you never done before

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

@@GHOST-zy3ji I suppose you're not wrong there. Rey did know what the Force was, but I guess she didn't know if it was for real. That's fair.

[@matthewkeogh4365]

you have good points

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

Thanks, Matthew.

[@stefan6347]

Rey and Kylo are able to defeat the praetorian guards because of The Force, which of these two groups have the force with them? A bunch of guards, or a descendants of The Chosen One and Sheev f-ing Palpatine? If a blind man can literally be protected from lasers on a point blank range by The Force, then people who are really strong with The Force can take out a few guards. I know saying The Force as a contender in the story can invalidate every single criticism the movies get, but come on The Force being a plot armor/convenience had been in Star Wars since Leia senses Luke in trouble. Also Rey being that capable can also be because The Force had always guided her through her journey to pick up the skills she needed along the way so she can fulfill her destiny, and The Force just helps her more when she hasn't fulfill that whenever she's in trouble, this can also be valid for Kylo, Luke, and Anakin.

[@dangerdash4393]

The problem with this is, we never see any application of the force in this battle. Then there's that fact that these guards, much like the royal guards we see in the Prequels and OT, are hand picked because they're able to go one on one with Jedi and win. And then there's the fight itself. The only one really putting up a fight is Ren, while we literally see Rey just swinging randomly hoping to hit something. Then there's the idea that all her skill (which we never have any establishment for in the movies) is simply because of the force. That is called lazy writing. When your answer for everything that happens comes down to "the force wills it", it not only shows lacking in actual story writing, it delegitimizes the struggles of those prior.

[@stefan6347]

@@dangerdash4393 you don't have to use The Force to have The Force be with you, Rogue One shows us this, also how are the main characters in Star Wars never in danger until their time is up? The Force wills it, Star Wars has this magic thing that allows them to write things more exaggerated, yeah talent without training is nothing, but a luminous power that is literally in every single being trumps everything, "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of The Force," why is training any different?

[@dangerdash4393]

@@stefan6347 The force isn't an omnipotent being that dictates the outcome of the universe. The force was with Windu when he beat Sidious, but Anakin's interference is what changed the battle. If the force was that one sided, Operation Knightfall would've never even been able to happen.

[@albertthepeacock8020]

Rey is a good written character but the writers keep messing her up but when they get it THEY get it. Props to you for defending Rey because not a lot of people would do that and it is a pretty damn shame that people lump in Rey/Daisy with all the other male washed wahmen Mary Sues when Rey/Daisy aren't controversial at all.

[@Yoda-wf6bu]

I couldnt watch the entire video But as far as Ive come, great job dude. I agree with you. You earned a sub

[@jackotaco5054]

This video is fucking great

[@jacobblack6707]

think I may of aseadly delated one of your links to this video could you doble check if I did I am sorry plase Fogive me if not and mostlike if I did not plase Fogive me for whasten your time but do duble cheek and let me know ok.

[@falionna3587]

Luke mentions piloting skills several times, as does Ben, and links it to anakins. Luke doesn't beat Vader in Hope, and loses a hand to him in empire. And beats him of sorts in Jedi. He had training before that. You even showed the basic one with the blindfold. He has Yoda train him. Rey does not, first time she turns on a saber she beats Kylo.

[@LaughinggCattGiggles]

I don't recall mentioning that Luke "beat" Vader in ANH. Yes, he does have training from Yoda, but it's never shown to be weapon/combat training; we're left to assume that Luke trained in between movies. Rey beats Kylo, yes, but we shouldn't ignore all of the details that are at play here. It isn't as simple as Rey beats Kylo and that's it, as I explain in the video.

[@falionna3587]

@@LaughinggCattGiggles no, you simply put that Rey besting Kylo as the same as Luke beating Vader. Kylo has no problems from the wound when fighting Finn. But should be when facing Rey? Also. Fighting with a staff is not the same as a saber. While Joda may not have been teaching saberfighting, he did teach Luke how to move with the force, to use it for better athletic prowess. And you mention above that training isn't a thing. Yet why do some many mention training then? And all of the things luke had is better than nothing. There is no timegap between 7 and 8.

[@AppetiteForIllusions]

@@falionna3587 Rey was only able to beat Kylo because she tapped into the force like Luke did at the end of ANH. She was only on the back foot beforehand. If its an issue in TFA then by association it must be the same in ANH.

[@falionna3587]

@@AppetiteForIllusions Not quite, as Luke trained with the blindfold. A training we see younglings do in the prequels. It involves sensing out with the force. And even then Luke was a good pilot as luke himself says, Ben and his friend in the rebellion. Why would she tapping into the force grant her any skill with a weapon she has no training with?

[@dmc2076]

@@falionna3587 Yeah, Luke trained for...what, an hour on the Falcon? If that? And only the last minute of it included being blindfolded. Biggs also says Luke is "the best bush pilot." He's got skills but has no combat experience to speak of and was flying much simpler vehicles. He then goes up against pilots with years of experience and wins thanks to The Force, which he hadn't even heard of until earlier that day.