In Service to the Brand - Why Bioshock Infinite Failed - Extra Credits

[@Kth77]

After watching the Force awakens I couldn't help but to think of this episode, "You can't have Star Wars without planet destroying super weapons, scary bad guys in masks, and a scrappy under supplied resistance movements" despite half of the elements not making much sense to me given the state of the universe at that point.

[@Penminfire]

+Kth77 I know, I mean c'mon, Republic you don't have anything else to do with your military, give them more support than a couple of guns, a cool bunker, and some spaceships.

[@anarchistmugwump9137]

+Kth77 Thing they have basically gone through all the regular Star Wars tropes that are absolutely iconic and loved about the series. It was a move to get everyone thinking "Yeah! Star Wars is back! And it's just like it should be, no stupid branching off" Now that they've established the similarities in Universe and the audience is on side they can make something different. Disney aren't idiots, they make very calculated moves in who they bring onto projects.

[@timothymclean]

That stuff bothered me, too. I can see Abrams or someone wanting to create surface-level similarities before exploring how the less obvious differences (e.g, the different demeanors of Kylo Ren and Darth Vader) would affect the plot, but if that's what he had in mind he went a bit too far. I mean, seriously, there are other ways to make the good guys the underdogs in this scenario--ways which fit better than the good guys inexplicably splitting from the government they repaired last trilogy and the bad guys having absurd resources for a glorified terrorist organization. Heck, he could have even tried to make it relevant to problems we face in the real world! Such wasted opportunity.

[@Kth77]

Timothy McLean Totally! I really wanted to see the first order engaging in guerilla warfare, and maybe even New Republic citizens supporting the first order pining for the 'stability' of the Empire days.

[@rancper]

thank you!

[@NoahWeisbrod]

0:30 Are you telling me I SHOULDNT make a game about a sabre-wielding mariachi on roller skates????

[@vizthex]

? why would you do that?

[@SSBBPOKEFAN]

Vizthex As TVTropes says, Rule of Awesome. Don't question it.

[@geckoo9190]

Noah Weisbrod Well as long as it fits with the rest of the game.

[@NoahWeisbrod]

Gecko o The entire thing would be pure silliness

[@LordBloodySoul]

Noah Weisbrod The idea would be hilarious, but great xD

[@MurcuryEntertainment]

I honestly think bio-shock infinite would have been functionally far more suited to a stealth/circumvention game, where violence was the last resort because of a high ceiling of difficulty.

[@epm1012]

Adam Oliphant so you think it should've been Burial at Sea Episode 2?

[@tdcsguy]

kind of ironic that they went back to the setting where runnin', gunnin' & lootin (with magic plasmids!) would've made sense again for that

[@tdcsguy]

Totally, and I loved that DLC. Even just that small but significant bit that it's the same revolver she's using as Booker did, but while he was gunslinging that thing off-handedly like a cowboy, she has to first cock it back with her small fingers before every shot. It's the same item in the world, but has completely different mechanics depending on who's using it. Made it so much more real for me. And then there is that lobotomy scene. I was seriously clenching my teeth and sweating like crazy during that!

[@emmaloopra5428]

I hate stealth but I completely agree

[@endorsedbryce]

What's more interesting is that when we look at early teasers I think they're original intent was a lot like this. It was shown that keeping a low profile and evading the Song bird would be a big part of the game. It was implied that it was a thing that could just show up and happen at any moment. The game was originally also supposed to be an open world to with the sky track things serving as your primary way of getting about the map. I think a lot of things got reworked because building a linear corridor/arena shooter is simply easier to do on a budget with dead lines looming. (Build out an arena, place enemies, repeat)

[@Mister86TV]

The looting, I feel, was actually a nice touch. From an emotional standpoint, you're exposed to the idea that looting is something that doesn't happen because it then subsequently feels awkward and uncomfortable when you're eventually forced to do it to survive. It's meant as a sign that Columbia's values are too easy to subvert for it to ever be any sort of shining beacon of perfection. By the time you're doing it regularly, you're hardly the only person going against the ideal of what Columbia is supposedly meant to be.

[@sm901ftw]

I would definitely pay good money for the Bioshock Infinite the early trailers showed, with all the side work and just trying to get out and away from the revolution and Songbird. Current version was brilliant, but I do wish they'd focused more on these things.

[@Makiruot]

I agress, its great. But it was so much linear and i missed some aspects of the gameplay from the first two. The early footage was brilliant, still B:I is a outstanding game.

[@Twilord_]

Yeah, a bright colourful gunky sprayer where Mario is on the wrong side of the law however...

[@vincentrose8725]

I actually do think that could work, but it would take a bit of knowledge. I doubt it though. How many times has he save d the princess, like 20 times now? Don't you think people would have a hard time buying him being on the wrong side of the law?

[@Twilord_]

Vincent Rose Just have a previously unseen miniature Bowser, a Koopa Junior, Bowser-Minior, or some such frame him.

[@LowLevelPro777]

*Cough cough* Super Mario Sunshine

[@vincentrose8725]

Twilord I feel the toads might accuse him for a minute, then say... "NAH"

[@Twilord_]

Solar Freeze Hmm, what was that?

[@Life_RPG]

This is exactly why I stopped playing Infinite after 45 minutes... But could never define it myself. Yay for EC!

[@Memanruler]

Now I feel really bad when they are talking about all these things the devs did wrong, when it was 2K who forced them to do it in the first place. The publisher who forced the Bioshock name on a completely unrelated game and forced similar mechanics to it gets away while the Devs take all the blame.

[@jadethenidoran]

Cheese Champ True story. Also, your icon is adorable.

[@Memanruler]

Echo Hunter

[@Fafnd]

+Cheese Champ And your evidence for this is?

[@Memanruler]

Fafnd Developer statements from the Bioshock team following their departure from 2K games. Unless you are talking about the adorable thing, which is subjective. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[@ThePondus430]

+Alecks Horchata no it is not. you cant mark cod and cs or battlefield or whatever as the same game just because they are all shooters not really portraying the situation the fighters are in.

[@herp_derpingson]

I never thought about it when I played Bioshock Infinite.

[@nicholasbarnes753]

+Herp Derpingson Neither

[@allied006]

+BonafideBarnabus ' Same.

[@nicholasbarnes753]

Alucard291 I loved the game a lot actually. My favourite game of 2014.

[@gerbendekker3273]

Neither did I but looking back, this criticism is absolutely justified. Playing the game though, that sort of thing never occurred to me. I was far more focused on the topics the game was having you play through.

[@onyxtay7246]

In Infinite I felt that they made the combat a part of the story. (Oh major spoilers. If you haven't yet played it you should because its an awesome game. Play the Burial at Sea DLC too. The story in that is great.) Its a city that starts beautiful, and peaceful. Then your actions destroy that world. The city is thrown into chaos, and its every man for himself. Throughout all of it you're there. Protecting Elizabeth. The chaos that you cause only serves to highlight Booker's failures. How he is drenched in sins that he can never be rid of, and how saving Elizabeth is his penance. The one way he can be cleansed. The way they care for each other as the world is falling apart around them is endearing, and you get to see Elizabeth grow into a strong woman who knows the evils that this world is filled with, but who still sees good. You see Booker go from being someone who's only concern is to do his job "Bring us the girl. Wipe away the debt." to saying to himself that he owes Elizabeth, and if that means he can't wipe away his debt then that's fine. (Or something like that. Its on a loading screen.) But after the city is falling apart the people you encounter do shoot first. I almost never fired the first shot. I always tried to go up to them, and see if they wouldn't try to kill me. When they did I was forced to fight, and to kill them. With Booker getting more blood on his hands, but for a good reason. The game ended with him being cleansed of those sins. All that death, and all the pain he caused was gone. He was able to have a happy life because he sacrificed to save an innocent young girl. His debt to her was paid in full.

[@onyxtay7246]

(I'm making a different comment 'cause this one is about Burial at Sea. Its still got big spoilers for that. So don't read if you don't want it spoiled.) Burial at Sea does a similar thing. It starts simple enough. Elizabeth is hiring an alternate Booker to help him find a girl. A girl he lost. She explains her reason as paying a debt. At first I thought it was simple. She owed Booker her life, and so when he lost Sally she went to help him. When it was revealed this was a version of Comstock who killed Anna, and then ran from his past under Booker's name I saw that the debt she was talking about was his debt to Anna, but she was wrong. In Episode two we see Elizabeth tormented by knowing she doomed Sally just to get revenge on Comstock, and that makes her go back to rapture. She then loses her powers, and is trapped. She still tries to save sally though. She sneaks her way through both Rapture and Columbia. Giving us a glimpse at their secret histories, and as this happens you are going through, and whether you kill or not you see what comes of the violence. All the death, and destruction. In Columbia you see the sickening result of what Booker did. You would never think of it in the original game, but as Elizabeth where you haven't killed anyone (If you're a good person) this waste of human life is sickening. You see all the death in Rapture, and it too is sickening. The way that both of these worlds destroy lives is painful to see. Looking at it all Elizabeth seems to see that even though she's tried to do good this whole time she's still like her father. She's still a killer. Comstock didn't know what he'd done, and he'd cared for Sally like his own daughter. Elizabeth had showed up. Dangled the thought of saving this girl who was the only good thing in his life in front of him, and then crushed his hope. Did he deserve what he got? Comstock did. But Booker didn't, and she owed him for that. So in the end she repaid that debt by dying to save a little girl who everyone would call a monster, or a freak. She died so that the girl would be able to have a better life. It was her debt she came to repay. The debt she owed Booker, and it was paid in full. I'm sure that in some world there's a version of her who managed to save a Booker much like ours. That they're off somewhere in Paris where all the boys are trying to woo her, and they're terrified of her father coming out and throwing them into the river. But that world can only be because our Booker, and Elizabeth died to break the cycle of death and destruction the DeWitts brought. The debt they owed each other was paid.

[@ViguLiviu]

I understand your point, but sincerely when i was playing the game (not the dlcs) i felt that you just have to kill more and more to reach the end and i didn't like that, i felt that they were humans i was killing. What i would argue instead is they felt to have a lack of motivation, i can understand there are in the world some bullies but hundredths, i think there mentality to just want to kill you was wrong, if they were soldiers (or humans reduced to a more instinctual way of living like in the first) that kind of mentality would've been acceptable, but they mostly are the copy paste of the same thug without any other identity than wanting you dead.

[@joshuaadams-leavitt4603]

I feel you, but there were times during Bioshock Infinite where I would have liked to have some sort of sneak function, so as to avoid some of the combat. The violence makes sense in the first 10 or 20 minutes, and the last half, but it starts being monotonous with the vigors not adding as much to the experience. (*Spoilers*) Theres a part in the game where you have to sneak past crazy people and prisoners or an alarm will sound. That was such a welcome part of the game, as it gave me the choice of how I was going to deal with the problem at hand. The game was about duality and how a thing is both itself and different at the same time, the option of sneak vs combat could have played a much bigger role, as the men I kill or avoided become different in each one of the tear jumps.

[@onyxtay7246]

Joshua Adams-Leavitt I do really wish the main game would've had a bit more gameplay than "shoot the bad guy" and "stun the bad guy with shock-jockey. Then shoot him." It was kind of repetitive, but I went through it for the story, and the moment to moment gameplay isn't that bad. Its just that you realize you spent the last 15 minutes doing the exact same thing, and you wonder why you wasted all that time. Though I suppose that's the problem with games. 80% of the game isn't all that memorable, but you can remember the 20% really well because that's the good part. I remember those epic moments where Elizabeth threw me a health pack right as a patriot was about to get in the last hit on me, and then I was able to kill him, and so for me the combat was more about how much Booker and Elizabeth need each other than actually being good combat, but I suppose I only experienced that because I kept playing bad.

[@clowntrooper61]

They also said in the DLC that vigors came from plasmids because fink stole the idea from suchong. He then stole drinkable plasmids from fink. Though, it still doesn't explain why everyone isn't using vigors or why booker doesn't become a splicer.

[@andreasdrg]

Please keep these game-specific videos coming! Discussions like these are so damn important to the artistic quality of games going forward. The insights shared in this video need to become common knowledge among game designers as soon as possible.

[@TalixZero]

This reminds me of a Kotaku review I read on Amnesia: A Machine for Pigs. The thought was brought up that a new studio had taken up the Amnesia mantle, stayed true to the feel of its roots, but had taken it in a completely different direction. It focused much more strongly on presentation of the story and the world, and used gameplay mechanics much less if at all. They then mentioned a concept of handing the series from developer to developer, seeing what new thoughts and concepts could be wrung from it by others. Like what if the Stanley Parable developers made an Amnesia title? What about Gone Home's creator?

[@The_Kentuckian]

Maybe I'm just too cynical for my own good, but while, yes, the Vigors were poorly explained, I think the fans would complain if a Bioshock game didn't have some type of Plasmid stand-in. Heck, a lot of folks I know complained about the fact "it wasn't set in Rapture and how dare a Bioshock game pick a new location."

[@dtester]

Just got around to BioShock Infinite - Burial at Sea...without saying too much, I'm glad it help provide a real link between the original and infinite....addressing some of the issue mentions in this vid.

[@MatthewCampbell765]

I'd actually make the inverse argument. The problem isn't that the game tacked on unwieldy mechanics onto their world, it's that they created a world that didn't fit them. Columbia is basically Rapture's opposite. In order to make it fit, they would have had to basically make the opposite of a Bioshock game. They should have made Columbia more like Rapture or either System Shock setting, in my opinion. The core of Bioshock is a claustrophobic setting where there aren't a lot of other people around.

[@TheAlfredo094]

Matthew Campbell I don't even think that Bioshock needed a sequel in the first place :s

[@Bobberation]

Matthew Campbell I would say that's the same argument, with a different proposed solution. Not saying that I disagree - far from it, I would have loved for Infinite to have had a more Rapture-type location - but in essence, you're making the same point as the video - Infinite's mechanics didn't fit its setting, and the game suffered for it.

[@TheAlfredo094]

It doesn't even have a good plot. It's just a fetch quest for the vast majority of the game. It had nice production values though.

[@stardude692001]

+Matthew Campbell I agree. I think they could have made the game that EC seems to want, but they shouldn't label it "bioshock". If a "sequel" doesn't have the same setting, mechanics, characters or design feel, then why call it a sequel. They used the bioshock name to cash in on the brand so they had to pay some homage to the brand or you will get bitching like you got with Fury Road.

[@TheAlfredo094]

***** I didn't say the narrative was bad. I said that the plot was awful.

[@markmcarthur5090]

I've always found that the sequels which work best (based upon how much I enjoyed them) are ones that built upon the previous game, progressing the story in a way that couldn't/wasn't done in the last game. A good example of this is Portal and Portal 2. Portal has a unique story, it plays on good ideas, and engages you in a cool way, but in Portal 2 they took the ideas of the last game closer to their full potential, they added new elements to the game, developed previously unmentioned parts of the story, etc. That type of sequel is the best in my opinion, the sequel that gives an okay game the game it really could have been if there was more work done, more funding and such, along with also not shoving the old game out of the way. Other sequels are still good (like the Halo games, though I dislike Halo 4), but the Portal 2 type sequel is the best in my opinion.

[@SikkiArt]

I get your approach on why the mechanics within Bioshock: Infinite doesn't feel right....but that's the point. Stealing different gadgets, ideas and powers from parallel dimension is well established in the story and through audio-logs.....the whole game circles around this idea. That's why things like the Vigors feel out of place, because they are. They belong to different dimensions (Rapture in that case) and were brought to Columbia through dimension ripples. It's also a metaphor and critic on the never-ending request for mindless sequels…watered down copies of a superb original that were patched together (represented by the scrambled reality that exits in Columbia).

[@guillermoherrera763]

Well, I understand the point that you are making, but bioshock infinete is not all about shooting/plasmids. I liked this one because of the depth and complexity of the story and it make me think about all as a whole. I really enjoyed your video though :)

[@Arbmosal]

I had a great night thanks to you. I found your channel this noon, and today was also my day off, so I started to learn ruby. Combine those 2 things with some ice cold booze and you have a couple of hours of fun and productivity(that's where the learning something new part comes in)

[@tdaily9644]

Wait a moment. I think there's something we forgot to consider here. Yes for a large part of the game Columbia is a functional city. However, in the later part of the game, we see a Revolution form. I think in a city torn by war, it is more reasonable to fight your way through. Vigors are still out of place. Looting also debatable, but more acceptable on a war-front. Violence against the police force trying to suppress a rebellion? Maybe okay.

[@thegmanyo]

Yeah but that's like, 60% of the way through the game. The fighting did work better once you felt like the whole rebellion was fighting with you, but the gunfights still got tiring. And the whole "rebellion turns on you" thing was weak.

[@arthasmenethil6429]

It's funny that Irrational has been using the looting mechanic since System Shock (1994) and never left the looting mechanics out of any of their games.

[@Liggliluff]

(5:40) You are making contradictory statements. You say the mechanics can change, and the characters ... so it's allowed to have a Bioshock where you do less shooting. But we can't have a Mario game that has shooting, even though the mechanics was allowed to change? ... I'm confused.

[@RingTeam]

I agree. I stopped playing Bioshock Infinite because it didn't make sense that I kill thousands of enemies in a functioning city. This type of violence works better in the original Bioshock game, Demon's Souls, Bloodborne and The Last of Us I and II.

[@Mazerf]

I agree holeheartedly with everything said here. I love Infinite it was an awesome game but as soon as I started looting garbage cans it lost a little bit. It made no sense and then the combat just took me out of it. I loved the combat don't get me wrong zipping around on the skylines and opening tear to help was cool. But it always took me away from the narrative and just made it a shoot that guy game. I love the game but I agree they should have moved it a little more away from the original.

[@Alforbia]

I would argue that the ridiculous levels of violence is VERY key and defining towards the plot? Like the circular nature of intense and brutal violence, and how every single act of intense violence can be traced back to the influences of a version of Booker DeWitt, having the centralized Booker in constant violence only makes sense. I also enjoy the symbolism of the use of the Skyhook. Like Booker's relationship with violent behavior, using a skyhook feels liberating. Its liberating and elevating and makes you feel special and above everyone else. But also like Booker's relationship with violence it puts you on a rail of potentially endless carnage that just goes in circles over and over again.

[@jackthekrakan]

the animation on this episode is excellent. really well chose images and lovely timing. the righting was good to. such a hight standard of work. thanks for the many years you guys have put in, i have learned so much.

[@danielalbornoz9081]

I understand what he means but alot of people are "brand" fanboys and if they didnt add Vigor to it people would have complained just as much as if they did.

[@gerbendekker3273]

Somehow I got the feeling that's the reason execs stepped in and told the devs to rework the game. Just a gut feeling, no facts to go on

[@Zeldon567]

Corridors of Tim from Chrono Trigger at the end caught me off guard, really good remix.

[@stardude692001]

I have to completely disagree with you guys on this one. When I buy a sequel or another game in a series I want the same game and mechanics with a new story and maybe a new twist. While I love the story, I do see Bioshock games as being about certain gameplay mechanics. I don't think this should mean developers are tied to only working on one franchise like Bungie was with Halo or a large number of other examples. I think these people should be able to make new and different games but they should make them in new serieses that don't have expectations. If you take the FPS elements of gunfights, the RPG elements of looting and the fairly unique elements of plasmids or vigors out of the game, then what makes it a bioshock game? Maybe you could justify this by them being set in the same world but the stories don't really tie together at all.

[@stardude692001]

Malcom Chase To be fair that isn't anything new for comics. Every time a production run of a comic ends and a new one starts with a new writer they have their own take on the character, origins and backstory. There is a right way and a wrong way to go about this. We don't expect new batman comics to take place in the 50's or for bruce to be in 80's. We do expect batman to be Bruce Wayne and for him to be a dark, brooding, cunning, bat suited superhero. When they wanted to do a sci fi batman in the future they called it batman beyond and had Terry Mcginnis. As for movies, I don't really want them all to be movie versions of comic books, the characters aren't bond only to one medium and you can tell new stories in film and TV. The important thing is to keep the soul of the character alive. I think Marvel has done a pretty good job with this, even though the backstories and facts are different movie Tony Stark acts the same way that comic Tony Stark does.

[@stardude692001]

Malcom Chase For me DC comics starts and ends with animation. Justice League was amazing and it set the tone that I expect from most of the characters. The DC animated movies have also been of a fairly high quality. Even the new justice league movies that are more new 52 based are still pretty good and are much better than any of marvels animated movies. I like to think of all the live action DC stuff as taking place in some kind of alternate reality. DC does pretty good with completely new and different imaginings of events, Gods and Monsters was a pretty good movie and one of my favorite DC comics was Red Son. I would be worried about bleedback though. I don't mind Nick Furry being more like Samuel L. Jackson but I don't want the great DC comics characters influenced by the mostly sub par actors that have played them. Well besides Joker, Heath Ledger was amazing, if different, but I don't even want to think of Bale or Afleck when reading a Batman comic.

[@stardude692001]

Malcom Chase Ah the batman animated series, old school, I like it. Justice league was great but it hasn't been on the air for a while so I wouldn't call it current. It followed in the same grove of character development that they had in Teen Titans. The show starts with the introduction of the Martian Manhunter and an alien invasion. The new animated movies are good but don't watch them looking for the old school comic characters, they are new 52 so a bit more violent and juvenile, wonder woman and supes are getting together rather than her and batman. Lantern is Hal Jordan so he feels a bit more like the movie version. I would suggest batman superman apocalypse or superman doomsday. Flashpoint paradox was good too, with an alternate reality and meeting batman's parents. Also crisis on infinite earths is good. Just don't want allstar superman, that one is terrible.

[@stardude692001]

Malcom Chase Yeah, DC's animated movies for the last decade or so have been very good. Here is the wiki page with a list of them. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_Universe_Animated_Original_Movies#Superman:_Doomsday The only one I didn't like enough to watch the whole way through was allstar superman. The rest range from ok to very good with flashpoint being about in the middle. I hope you enjoy them. :)

[@wherethetatosat]

My thoughts exactly. But I would also add that a major element of what makes Bioshock....Bioshock is it's exploration of dystopian worlds brought about by thought provoking concepts, like Objectivism, Altruism, American Exceptionlism, multiverses and so on. Sure, they could change elements over time to keep things fresh and interesting, but if they change it too radically fans may have a negative reaction (like you said) and rightfully so.

[@SeanWagemans]

This makes me think of the Fable series, which has done similarly. The focus of the game was on a fairy tale-esque world centred around a hero who is confronted with blatant good or evil choices. The sequels focused more on the mechanics of the game, such as combat, magic and moral choices rather than keeping within the thematic focus a Grimm Fable. I thinks this is why fans are so dissatisfied with this series.

[@MrDivinity22]

Sadly the mechanical changes can put a brand down as i just recently saw a video about someone hating sacred 3 for "not being sacred" cause of the fact there is not loot anymore and such (i havent played any of the sacred games myself but im sure this is true for other cases)

[@Beremor]

That just depends on what you're looking for in a game, franchise, or (spiritual) successor.

[@kilikus822]

This video is spot on. I didn't even play the first BioShock but every single thing you said rang true to my short lived play through. I got to the courtyard fight where you first meet the firemen and just put the game down, temporary at first but I still haven't gone back.

[@TheHobgoblyn]

I think the third criticism isn't fair at all. The violence in the game is completely explained by the story. Comstock KNOWS you are coming for him, but he doesn't have a particularly good way to identify you. Once you start fighting, all of the police within earshot come running, but they don't have mass communication to really make any sort of really well-coordinated effort. Later in the game, you ignite the civil war that is perhaps inevitable in a society that keeps more than half its citizens oppressed in order to make the world glorious for the rest. And once that civil war starts, the once idealic city in the beginning of the game becomes a dark, torn, burning mess. You are the chaotic element of the world and are fated to destroy the city simply by existing-- unless you let the bad guys win. The game's fundamental theme is that choice is all but an illusion. You can only either put down your arms and die... or move forward, and in doing so, engage in greater and greater violence and cause greater and greater chaos.

[@erlanddrow7950]

Right as he said "piece of cake" I was writing piece of cake in a log😂

[@Spaghetti775]

2:55 "violent plasmid-addled SPLOIYSURRs" fixed that for you

[@EvilDoresh]

There is truly nothing I can say about this splendid counterargument of yours. Your rhetorical skills are beyond measure.

[@talsen6413]

Bioshock Infinte's story was ruined by its mechanics. I feel like that story would have been much better delivered in a RPG with shooter elements. Instead you get interrupted every moment possible. Many times not even making sense. It felt unnatural and awkward. Also they misrepresented their main character this way. What they went for is a guy who will do whatever it takes to get something done. What they ended up with was a rampaging maniac who once has a reason to shoot someone, he just keeps on shooting everything. On top of that once the fights break out, they get dull quickly as they drag on unchanging. Shooting sequences really just felt more like time padding. They are the shooter equivalent of level grinding.

[@rocksteel9238]

+Talsen Bryss Whether you like a game or not depends on personal preferances I personally loved infinites combat. As for booker himself well he's established as a very violent man who when threatened rarley shows mercy so him slaughtering everyone isnt too out of place.

[@todesziege]

If your mechanics ruined your story, maybe a game wasn't what you should have been making to start with.

[@iraniche]

One thing about looitng, it worked because at the beginning people did look at you funny when you took something out of the trash, even Liz wasnt comfortable with you looting. Its not until the shooting starts and the city goes to heck that it feels like a comfortable mechanic

[@Dragonite43]

I get where you are coming from, but I still love Bioshock Infinite.

[@jackshoggoth677]

But when you do loot for stuff, you can accidentally start a gunfight you know? Sometimes it's considered stealing, it's alright for you to be taking a few stuff in 1912 here. And the citizens get scared and run off if you start killing cops so like uh what

[@dasaggropop1244]

Look, nobody ever talks about BS2. You didn't even mention it in this piece here about the third part. They tried something there, it's a good game, out of the shooter box, but not as memorable as the Mindfunk the 1st was. No wonder they went back to the successful recipie. Why take a risk, when buyers don't appreciate it? I mean in an expensive title like this is.

[@kylemoore2446]

They didn't change anything in Bioshock 2. The game refined/reused many of the weapons and gameplay mechanics from its predecessor.

[@Sines314]

BS2 is closer to an expansion pack than a new game. Most of the same weapons and plasmids and general mechanics. Infinite is almost nothing like the first two. It's more likely that people complained about how much 2 was like 1, and so they made Infinite as different from 1 and 2 as possible.

[@dasaggropop1244]

I think playing from the big daddy perspective was huge.

[@Sir_Goodwrench]

This. While we all love the twist of the first Bioshock, 2 offers a more intimate story imo. In the original, you don't really have a stake in Rapture until you find out about it near the end of the game. You're just a foreigner stuck in a crumbling city trying to make your way out for most of it. 2 on the other hand felt like a father/daughter story from the get go. There was always that drive to find and rescue Eleanor. There was that extra connection to the Little Sisters. There was more to lose than just your own life. Bioshock 2 is really underappreciated if you ask me.

[@dasaggropop1244]

Also it had a decent mp, but came out when it had to compete some modern warfare, so they went back to the winning recipe. Also they left a potato in a toilet for the player to eat, because free food 😃

[@thecteam4395]

You want an epic example of this? Fire Emblem Fates: Custom PC, generation systems and the emphasis on quantity over quality in terms characters. Not to mention the out of place cameos of Awakening's Characters.

[@bergerman3448]

3:15 Random dot.

[@yarek-karey6902]

While I get his points on Bioshock Infinite's constant violence for violence's sake, I disagree with it. The whole point of the narrative (to me) was about how Booker is tearing this ideal society apart, and he isn't necessarily doing it for the right reasons. That's why it makes sense to me that he would loot everything, and shoot all the enemies in his path.

[@BoondoggleMyCognle]

Ok that's what I can't agree with. They break up the shooting with exploring and interacting. It's not just mindless shooting.

[@michaeldawson1194]

Turn on auto captions and watch closely around 1:04 to 1:06

[@blitzburn2871]

4:30, i was never bothered by this because i felt it was part of Bookers character. He is a man that have been unable to confront his dileemas with nothing but violence for his entire life.

[@Locane256]

Makes total sense. I liked Bioshock infinite for a bunch of reasons but hated it partially for the ones you listed here. good episode!

[@blade45678910]

the link to the end music is broken

[@SolusBatty]

:'(

[@DarkAwp]

Every time I see you post a new video I go to the website to see an even newer one.

[@Alex-fu4md]

*SPOILERS BELOW PLAY THE GOD DAMN GAME ALREADY ---------------------------------------------------------- I agree with all of what you're saying with Bioshock Infinite but on a couple points. They could have, and probably should have, used a better system in certain scenarios, but if they removed this alternate reality's version of plasmids then the ending wouldn't make as much sense. This reality is supposed to mirror the reality that holds Rapture as much as possible. Since plasmids were such a big part of a Rapture reality, it also has to be in a Columbia reality. Also, by the time the revolution takes place, the violence makes sense. They wanted it all to feel like a mirror Rapture.

[@Costar58]

Also, since everyone in the city considers Booker DeWitt to be The Antichrist or an Imposter...What else is he supposed to do? Politely suggest they refrain from shooting him?

[@JapanFreak2595]

The thing I noticed was that vigors seemed to have just been introduced to the public at the fair, so they weren't common placed long enough to slowly destroy society. And by the time Booker showed up and was believed to be the False Shepard, getting vigors out to the public weren't of the highest priority.

[@bionicg2040]

They game lacked an enemy/enemies that forced the player to use vigors in the way players used plasmids in the previous games. To me there was no tank unit. there was nothing in the game that made me want to stop, survey my surroundings to plan engaging said unit. When the game started I kept thinking at some point the cops would start using vigors or have increased defenses so certain vigors or weapons were not as effective on them. Hell i thought the "heavy hitters" were even going to be immune to certain vigors or at least have strong resistence to them. Sadly this was not the case. It almost killed gameplay for me because the whole time i was wondering "where is the challenge?" The worst part about it was not being able to fight the songbird. I would have been ok with all the above if I could fight the songbird. I kept thinking that was going to happen at some point also. Sadly nothing. This also created a disconnect for me with story since Booker had to "rescue" Elizabeth and the only thing that could have stopped him (cause the cops and heavy hitters were jokes) was the songbird. It would at least give some justification for the use of vigors, force the player to be on their "A" game, help connect storyline elements with gameplay. It would certainly justify the scavenging because you would be dealing with assaults from enemies that drain your resources to the point where you have not choice but to scavenge/steal/buy (but not really) things (just like in the other bioshocks) i mean who didn't: hack every vending machine they came across just to get items cheaper? scavenge for med kits and eve because you had either fought big daddy or where about to fight one? or loot as much supplies as possible to "invent" items? The other 2 games had a need for such mechanics and the gameplay was shaped around that need. Infinite had a want for those mechanics and it was reflected in gameplay. so much potential...wasted.

[@Nr4747]

I totally play Super Mario Warfare, it it was a parody FPS.

[@timothyn4699]

Interesting food for thought, agree that branding should be more than just putting recognizable characters / mechanics in the game, and that the immersive experience or logic of the world should not suffer just to add nostalgia. Each game should do what it can to be the best it can be and unique in it's own rights.

[@pyrix]

Why are we putting Marlboros in our JRPGs? It'll get lung cancer ;o

[@wherethetatosat]

Heh heh. I noticed that too.

[@williamsledge3151]

The Xcom games did these really well. The mechanics make you feel like what you were doing. The hidden mechanic in Xcom 2 makes you feel like You're a resistance cell doing an ambush or the break in mechamic in Chimera Squad makes you feel like You're a police force busting criminals.

[@SSBBPOKEFAN]

In service to the brand...pretty much sums up the Disney-oriented world of KHII. Very few, if any, really had a connection with the overarching story of the game, unlike KHI.

[@TheAlfredo094]

SSBBPOKEFAN Thankfully fixed in later entries though. I feel that KHII could have been such a better game.

[@bliffity2692]

What's KHII? It sounds like a sneeze. If so, then they were fucked before they started. One can rarely capture the whimsical atmosphere of your very first sneeze.

[@Poldovico]

+Bliffity That would be "Kingdom Hearts 2". Great game from a great series if you can get past the fact it has disney characters in it. Which you probably can if you're even watching a video about game design.

[@bliffity2692]

Poldovico I was turned off the Kingdom Hearts series simply because they had Disney characters in them.

[@Poldovico]

Bliffity Guess I overestimated you.

[@ingonyama70]

...damn Zeal remix that's been in my head since 2003 making me want another Chrono game...

[@patternedpike3746]

The problem with taking out vigors is that even though they are not central to the story, they are still central to the gameplay. It is worth remembering that in order to remove vigors they would have had to re-work the entire combat system. Remember as well that it was more than the plasmids that destroyed Rapture. It was that the plasmids were highly addictive and completely unregulated, a problem with pure capitalism that is highlighted in Bioshock. Columbia would not have this problem.

[@Cross3061980]

This just re-affirmed my sub with you guys, keep up the good work!

[@eyesrajones]

I stopped playing Infinite about an hour or two because of the very issues you are talking about.

[@alio2269]

Bobby Jones same here

[@Moncrom]

Bobby Jones it all makes very good sense if you play it trough.

[@MrSandMan961]

This kind of makes me think that spiritual successors might me a better idea than sequels that don't directly connect to past games. You can have inspiration by past titles and even say it takes place in the same world but you're not as tied to service of the brand and people who enjoyed those past games can still look forward to this new one.

[@limetwistanimations8628]

I personally think it was a great game!

[@kilikus822]

My favorite part of Infinite is that I share a name and birthday with the antagonist. Maybe I should go get baptized and see what happens.

[@rogersranger1357]

I don't know about you ,but I would buy dark Mario day one. Get on it Nintendo.

[@mejhdhhicbfshihids652]

I feel like i could make a Shadow The Hedgehog joke here but i can't think of one

[@Ghanzza]

In my opinion,Infinite can be a great game,action focused shooter are not really my cup of tea,but i can see that infinite is better than most even if i dont like it,but infinite fails as a Bioshock sequel in my opinion,I think its would have been better if it was its own original IP

[@Ghanzza]

Sorry for the english,it isn't my native language

[@StonedHunter]

Don't worry. You got your point across perfectly and I totally know what you mean! It's a great game but it's not a "Bioshock" game.

[@Plain1nsane]

This video goes completely against what I want to buy as a consumer. If I like a franchised video games I want more of that video game. I don't want experimentation and unnecessary, potentially [often] game breaking new mechanics. I want the story I've invested my time in to be continued and fleshed out the way a tv series does. If you want to make a new and drastically different video game, DON'T MAKE FRANCHISES.

[@doomblackdragon]

It is true that the things that made bioshock did not work well in bioshock infinite. I am agree with you. This should not have been named bioshocked. This should have been a brand new ip. Then ago what they said about final fantasy is true. It a franchise with out any games being related to the last game.

[@Ipsen13]

If you want more of a particular video game....play that video game again. There's a reason that there's a qualifier called 'replay value' when people generally evaluate games. The basics of any game, let alone a video game, is that you can PLAY IT AGAIN. Slapping a 'n>1' after your title should still denote a novel game, even if it keeps elements of the previous or originating title. The reason why lies right in a sequel's title. 'Video Game 2', as a title, should recall familiarity with an existing world/story/property, while the '2' should strike you as unfamiliar; a progression, 'moving on', or 'new frontier', if you will. Proper sequels do two things at once; they both create connected worlds by familiar elements (usually something related to the player-controlled themselves), and create new challenge by unfamiliar territory (change in story, antagonist, abilities, etc.). Sequels, first impression, should be an adaptation story. If you want continuation of the initial story (....in the mode of tv serialization, only gods know why), look or ask for DLC. Story as such should be progressed within the same game engine.

[@Plain1nsane]

I've played every Assassin's Creed game at least 4 times. I haven't stopped playing them since they came out. Assassin's Creed had a larger story arc that went completely to shit rather than being finished they way it was intended. Assassin's Creed 4 breaks canon and has zero respect for any fan of the first 3 games. That wouldn't have happened if Black Flag was made without the franchise that it clearly has no place in. I'm not some drooling savant that wants to play the first quarter of a story over and over again I want the thing to continue which means A PROPER SEQUEL.

[@dtester]

hmm, not sure how you came to that conclusion. The video is not saying franchised games have to change things up ...just that it might have to change in order to be a better game. That said, it can also be taken as: if you do want to keep in the same key elements...that is totally fine as long as you don't screw it up.

[@Plain1nsane]

Rather than insulting, bullying, or pressuring other people into thinking the way you do, why not try providing a structured opposing argument in order to persuade with logic? If you want someone to really, deeply feel bad about their thoughts then take some time, and show them why they're wrong for thinking they're wrong. All you're doing is proving that I have every right to feel the way I do because the people who are okay with the opposition to me are lazy bullies who don't want to contribute to other people.

[@psychoslick2354]

A perfect example of having a game in a series be its own thing is Oddworld Stranger's Wrath. It fits well in the world of Oddworld whilst being its own thing.

[@chcoman123]

I'm sorry, but I have to completely disagree with this video. I love you guys over at Extra Credits, but I feel like you messed up here. While I'll admit, you do make some valid points in the video (the whole Vigors thing really isn't explained or used well in the world unless you play the DLC, which makes there inclusion make much more sense), but the looting and amount of violence felt right. Let's face it: Booker never instigated the events in the game (well...okay maybe he kinda did, but we won't get into that because SPOILERS). The point is that the police starting shooting you on sight, and there are multiple occasions in the game where violence against the police isn't the #1 answer. Hell, some sections of the game forbid it. The reason you're constantly shooting everyone is because everyone is shooting you. And that makes sense, considering what we learn about Booker's dark and troubled past (not the one discussed in the ending, mind you) later in the game. And the looting? Again, you're trying to survive. Plus if you notice, later on in the game, the world of Columbia gradually becomes more and more like Rapture, especially once you visit Shantytown. To me, it still felt just as right as it did in the original game. Now, I know you guys will probably never read this, as it's a really long post on a 3-year old video, but I really do hope you read this, hell, you don't even need to respond to it. All I ask is that you look at it from my angle. Thanks, and goodbye!

[@Poldovico]

+chcoman123 I think their point was that as designers, the devs didn't HAVE to make every cop shoot you on sight. They had control over how the game played and what the story was.

[@wherethetatosat]

Except, Poldovico, I feel that would have changed the story. And the story didn't need to be changed. Why would any of the cops want to take your side or help you? Comstock is law. He is a prophet of God in the game. If Comstock wants you dead and you work for him, you beat your ass you're going to do it. Even if it were clear to any of the cops they didn't stand a chance, they'd still fight back. Not fighting back either means Booker outright murders them anyway, or if Comstock finds out it means eternal damnation for all they know. It also helps to strengthen the bond between Booker and Elizabeth. They are the only people they can trust. The whole story is about them and their relationship. Suddenly having people in positions of power be like, "Oh hey, you're not a bad person. I'm totally going to become your ally and help you escape this place or be a pacifist" wouldn't make ANY sense within the game. Because then suddenly, you and Elizabeth aren't relying solely on each other for support. And there's no way in hell Comstock would allow anyone who isn't a zealot be on his police force, especially not a pacifist.

[@docholliday7408]

So, just came across this video 3.5 years later. And now I finally understand why even though I thoroughly enjoyed Bioshock 1 and finished 2, I never really got into Infinite. It just didn't draw me in, and now I know why.

[@FarisKaz]

Bioshock infinite was damn good :S

[@ChristopherRoss.]

2:22 YEAH FFIX! I'm so glad this game is getting love in this context; because it (as far as I'm concerned) is the bar by which everything to do with characters and plot should be measured. Also, its my most favorite game ever. :3

[@TonyStorm21]

was about to comment, its my favorite FF by far and its often ignored because it looks childish compared to the asthetics other games have, which is pretty dumb.

[@weedwak]

I actually liked Infinite better than the original. It has its problems, but I did like it more.

[@somedragonbastard]

And how does that relate to the video?

[@weedwak]

Fiona McCann It was talking about BioShock...

[@weedwak]

SYNDICAIDRAMON Good point.

[@downix]

This struck home, because after Infinite, I replayed both Bioshock and Bioshock 2 and remarked to myself how Infinite felt off, it felt wrong, in comparison. And until the first combat, Infinite was by and far my favorite opening of the Bioshock series. (I still love Bioshock 2 for its twist off of the original Bioshock, giving it a life on its own without sacrificing that which we loved about the original) The worst part is, after watching this and replaying Infinite again, is that the elements to make this the best game in the series are there. If the existing Bioshock systems were not so forced upon you, it could have been incredible. Even the vigors could have been sold and made to work, by adding some people at the first sideshow barker's discussion of vigors who were protesting. A pair of religious-types with signs calling them "abominations" or "corrupting" would have been an effective hand-wave of the issue that most people in Columbia did not have these plasmid, er, vigors. It was frowned upon by society. In comparison, if the rebels had an abundance of vigors while the police lacked them, it would have not only fit in this idea, but made the game a very different form of challenge. But in all cases, the combat needed to be toned down. No gigantic fields of dead police and rebel bodies. After the initial fight, an ideal scenario would have been to have had DeWitt hide, or fight, and make it the players choice. Hiding, eventually the police call off the alert and disperse, allowing you to once again move without fear and be a part of the city again. Admittedly, this would have added an almost Assassins Creed kind of level to the game, but in an environment like Columbia, that is precisely what would have not only have worked, but have excelled.

[@SturFriedBrains]

I hated Infinite, but I'm just imagining how much I'd love that shit if it were more in the vein of say Dishonored, you're in virtually the same situation (without all the shitty writing that comes up throughout the series) & you are forced to decide between trying to sneak out or killing your way through (if they just made vigors harder to get & actually used in society it could have been a great gameplay mechanic & social commentary, they could have integrated some Immanuel Kant in the narrative & maybe juxtaposed it with some Marx & Huxley, would have made a great comparison and contrast to the cynical take on Ayn Rand proposed by the previous games). Infinite is one of those games that really just doesn't reverberate with me at all, I see great potential, but it really feel way flatter than it's reviews would have you believe.

[@SpaceCat36]

Completely agree with ya. BioShock Infinite looks great, has great aesthetics and some pretty decent writing too, but, apart from that, the gameplay, tone and feeling are really stale. Even though you are in a damn flying city, it rarely even feels like it, as levels are little more than corridors with occasional skyrail acting as a cinematic connector from point A to point B. There is rarely any sense of height that should be given considering the setting. The gameplay consists pretty much only of shootouts, which doesn't help much, considering that guns kinda lack the impact IMO, and Elizabeth is not much more that ammo/salt dispenser after you killed set number of baddies. Even the intro itself felt kinda weak for me. You get shot out of a lighthouse, see this whole spectacular city in its glory, land in some temple with some foreshadowing symbolism, exit the building and that's pretty much it. "Yeah yeah, floating city, just deal with it" kinda went through my head. From there until the killing started everything felt like going through some theme park that didn't give much of a sh*t about new visitors. Now, I'm not saying that I want fanfares upon my arrival, but lets say, that upon the ascension from the lighthouse the pod malfunctioned (because drama), and you crash-landed in the middle of some street. As you slowly woke up, you see yourself surrounded by bunch of overly-friendly people, who want to make sure that you are ok. A group of energetic rascally children elect to escort you to the raffle for reasons, playing around all the way there. Imagine how much more f*cked up it would have felt when you had to shoot your way out of that sticky situation at the raffle in this case. To see all the people, who were so friendly and caring to you just a few minutes earlier, be completely terrified sh*tless because of you. Now that, IMO, would be one messed up intro. My biggest problem with this game, though, is knowing what it could, and should have been. There is a video on youtube, something like "BioShock Infinite - the game we never got" or something like that, that shows just how much better the game should have been. I think I'd love that version. The one we got, however...well, I can't say I didn't like it at all, but it was kinda meh, all in all.

[@jacobb5484]

SturFriedBrains I'm thinking that they could make vigors work with a few simple changes. First add a few scene about civilians or the police talking about "moral purity" and the "sinful nature of vigors" then relate it to prohibition and social judgment of that time later in the game show that a lot of people are secretly using them and then add them to fights when appropriate for the location. Even this small change could help everything mesh better

[@totemictoad4691]

or alternatively play up the classism and racism, have the well to do people vigor'd up buy relatively stable because 'faith and the founders' keeps them on the straight and narrow, have the wealthy well to do not just being verbal racists but also using bucking bronco on the 'menials' to show the dichotomy between the haves and havenots, have not guns being what the Vox want but a supply of Vigors that have combat value and will tip the scales, start the game in a less upperclass area where the bulk of the security seem to be weak mooks with officers who have limited vigors, then you go to a high class area and even the weakest enemy has at least one if not two decent vigors and uses them and the officers are like walking titans of powers, then the horror sinks in, those weak reluctant mooks early on, they arnt evil troopers of the system they are common people forced/left no choice but to wear the Columbia blue uniform and try and keep the peace (maybe because they are blackmailed to do so) they are poorly equipped expendable soldiers sent out to die by the high class superiors who don't care if they come back alive or not while the rich are protected by their own with their high calibre high quality weapons with all the marvels of vigors, suddenly when you go to finktown now your trying to avoid fights you don't want to gun down poor people forced to stand in your way

[@jacobb5484]

.the whole idea of rapture is that these powers made them unto god and evently ruined the city, in infinite the ideology is heavily conservative and therefor "magic/vigors would be considered to be of the devil" making it taboo but secretly used everywhere would really help the themes i think the idea of lower class conscripts would be amazing but not really make sense

[@SpaceCat36]

Lower class used as cannon fodder/pretty much slaves would work better in rapture's setting, where this idea of an ideal capitalistic society meets with reality: "...but they all forget that somebody's gotta scrub the toilets." - Frank Fontaine However, the whole idea of exploitation of the common folk could work in Infinite too if it would be propaganda and similar bullsh*t that forced people to act stupid, e.g. - attack the player. Not only that would be a great social commentary about people blindly believing everything someone "higher" says and being unable to make their own judgments, it could also create quite interesting dynamic in the game, where you are constantly between trying to hide and stealth around obstacles in hope that the FUBAR situation you are in wouldn't get f*cked up even more; and, when stealth eventually fails, being forced to shoot your way out, knowing perfectly well that the people you are facing are completely terrified of you due to all the brainwashing. It could also be used in some disturbing set-pieces, like trying to rescue some family from a burning building, and when you finally get to them, they choose to rather die, than to be rescued by "false shepard", or "devil himself" or whatever you'd be called by then. That'd be kinda depressing tho.

[@Uriel238]

Y'know, the disposability of police in not-so-dystopias (e.g. the GTA series) is a topic that warrants discussion. I looked it up after a particularly long session of _Payday 2_ and found that in that single hour (less!) I had killed more Washington DC police officers than had died in the line of duty IRL for a _century._ Granted, police in _Payday 2_ are essentially like zombies in _L4D_ but it doesn't translate so cleanly at all.

[@rougenarwhal8378]

and yet, when valve tried to make portal 2, no one liked it as much without the portals, and it wouldn't have sold nearly as well with out them

[@logictruth1]

+Rouge Narwhal Because that's the same as the Mario example. He doesn't expect them to throw all guns away but make the mechanics make sense in the world you are thrown into instead of just having it because the last one had it. Imagine if portal 2 didn't play in the test chambers but in the outside world. Somehow the portal gun would feel out of place wouldn't it?

[@timothyn4699]

I presume potral2 was a similar puzzle/survival game though to the original Portal in a similar setting (and the name of the game is literally in Portal in reference to its unique gameplay hook). If bioshock infinite had you in a similar setting as the original bioshock, in a ruined/post-apocalyptic/zombie type world then the mechanics like looting and 'shoot first ask questions later' makes sense. It however sounds like the setting is in an industrial town with civilized people and local law enforcement. In that case, shooting first or stealing in front of civilized people, with no repercussions, affects the believability of the world and the immersion of the experience (or the plasmids giving super powers, being readily available, but not applied to local law enforcement for whatever reason. Doesn't make sense and makes the opponents kind of incompetent, and a problem being that it seemed to add these mechanics for the sake of trying to induce nostalgia to remind the players that this is a bioshock game, but the immersion suffers for it).

[@MrJusticeShannon]

Love you guys keep up the good work, and please do a DRM video involving the consoles. See you next week.

[@rancper]

I think Bioshock Infinite was better...

[@coreblaster6809]

Sooo...? What does that have to do with the video?

[@Alex-fu4md]

+Core Blaster, Read the title?

[@MaganmashFlutefighter]

WOO! My binge of your videos is over! Once I check your website and pennyarcade's stuff to see if you stagger video releases on different channels, that is...

[@zatcharybelltucker735]

Animation @ 1:25 So much yes

[@BitterMelon9]

what you said about Final Fantasy was not only spot on, but my largest complaint about the recent games (but that's another topic). Thanks for another great video guys!

[@XIIIBobb]

I'm pretty sure someone's already said this, but I think it's worth mentioning... I remember in your video about game demos that it was kinda a problem we caused ourselves: companies release fewer demos because they don't help sales for the most part. I think this is another one of those topics we've brought upon ourselves. There are two games I've seen reviews for that illustrate this point: "Banjo Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts" and "The Bureau: XCOM Declassified." A lot of the negative reviews I've seen for those games were there because "this game isn't a (insert brand here) game" - seriously, if you don't believe me, look them up on Amazon. Not all of them even bother saying what they thought was wrong about the game. So, I think that, in BioShock Infinite's case, they tried to keep the gameplay similar to the other ones so that people wouldn't be irritated that "it wasn't a BioShock game."

[@HumanityAsCode]

I thought the looting made sense, it made me feel like I didn't belong there, because I'm the false Shepard. I'm fighting cops because alternate me is hunting me down

[@IQuarent]

"Trust your players. They want to play the game you want to make." Too true.

[@NARUHOTEL]

Great Episode Guys! Can't wait for Next week's! XD

[@TheWriter960]

To be fair though, I've seen plenty of sequels get the Review Ax because they did just that. "It doesn't feel like the sequel to X" or "What did they do with mechanic Y? That's a staple of the franchise!"

[@Sines314]

True, but I also felt a large arsenal of guns with multiple types of ammo was also part of what made Bioshock good. They removed that for the 'two weapons only' model, and the weapons didn't have multiple ammo that could make a difference in how you fight. Plasmids are a more unique and iconic part of the gameplay, but the arsenal of weapons (as compared to a two-weapon limit) is still a part of the gameplay, and they happily got rid of that. While the arsenal (presumably carried by an Invisible Ammo Yak) is a bit immersion breaking, it's not nearly as bad as just giving away mind-control potions at the county fair.

[@TheWriter960]

Sines314 I completely agree with you, all I'm saying is that they are kind of "damned if they do, damned if they don't."

[@Sines314]

Decided to replay Bioshock 1, and I started to realize, that for all the shoe-horned ways Infinite stuck to the brand, it departed in ways that I felt were hugely different. Bioshock had a fairly large variety of weapons, each with 3 ammo types. While for the Pistol and Machinegun these were just 'regular', 'Anti-People' and 'Armor Piercing' the rest did something interesting. It was a pretty big set of weapons, and the non-damage upgrade of each weapon did something interesting or defining, like removing the cocking of the shotgun or giving the Pistol a ludicrously hilarious 24-bullet clip. Infinite went to the Halo-established 2 weapons, discard them as needed, system. Not a bad system, but very different from what me and my friends refer to as the Ammo Yak system. Sure, Infinite let you carry all your vigors, but you could still carry up to 6 in the first game if you wanted to upgrade that way, and with Vigors all running on the same fuel, it's different from carrying 6 weapons with different ammo. Second, you mentioned the scrounging mechanic not fitting in with Columbia, which makes it all the weirder that you're more wedded to it. You can't carry medkits, you can't carry salt-bottles, and while you can carry all the ammo you want, you can only carry 2 weapons to use them with. As such, you're CONSTANTLY scrounging in Infinite. In BS1, I've got 9 medkits, 9 eve hypos, and all the weapons I need to fire off all my ammo. When you go into a fight with a Big Daddy in BS1, you make sure you're stocked up, and your guns are loaded with their specialty ammo. There's no doing anything like that in Infinite. This 'stocked up' option also changes why you scrounge. In BS1, you scrounge hoping to find a little more heavy ordinance for your next tough fight. In Infinite you scrounge so you can find a half-eaten apple to restore your health to maximum with. Ironically, this makes it feel like Jack isn't worried about survival in quite the same way Booker is. The only thing Booker has over Jack in terms of long-term survivability is his shields, but even fully upgraded, they're relatively flimsy compared to a stock of up to 9 medkits. Jack munches on food he walks by because he's hungry (or mechanically, because it might save him a medkit down the line). Booker does it because he is desperate, and he eats an apple a day because the doctor isn't coming at all. Having lunch is oftentimes as close as he can get to regular medical treatment. So while Infinite made sure to shoe-horn Vigors into the game, it still manages to play like a completely different game because it does away with the mysterious Ammo Yak that carries all your ordinance. They went from a Doom-like game to a more Halo-like game, with only the magical powers really remaining consistent.

[@hiroprotagonest]

They kept the wizard powers that fit just as easily into Skyrim as Bioshock, but went from a system that allowed you to carry a variety of weapons to a system that limited you. They kept the digging through trashcans in the middle of the city instead of just spending the money from a policeman you assassinated. But then they kept tons of combat that makes you a badass instead of stealth that makes you a desperate but cunning man.

[@ethereous]

If you go watch some interview (forgot which one) he says that, originally, he did a school presentation that had to be ten minutes. But his was a bit too long, so all he did was speed the video up a bit to make it fit. Everyone liked it, so he kept going with it.

[@vulapa]

EC pointed out in passing that the developers are under pressure by corporates to deliver sequels in service to the brand. I think this should be more recognized, that corporates usually don't understand what makes their games sell, and that more collaborative effort should be made between them and their developers in order to create a game that services both their goals.

[@lauraschantz9058]

I agree 1000000%. I loved the plot of BI (although the "You are your own worst enemy" ending pissed me off at the time), and Elizabeth Comstock is quite possibly the best damsel-in-distress-turned-heroine, but there was always something about the game that felt "off," and I think you've hit the nail on the head. :)

[@DoomedLich]

Yes. Initially it was actually just his voice sped up to fit time constraints. But it ended up going over so well that they kept it. See one of the Q and A videos to hear his actual voice.

[@Quet00]

Big problem with your theory there, the shooting action of Bioshock Infinite is a large part of what makes it intense fun. Before you start asking for a game to be more realistic, because that is very clearly what you're doing, you should ask yourself what would make the game more fun. Realism is one hundred percent worth sacrificing if it makes a game better. Look at shooters like Doom or Wolfenstien. In those games it's also one man against an organized force. Realism is not all that important, and before you say anything about Bioshock being more realistic, just look at it. It's a series about underwater magical drug users and floating cities where for some reason it's not like five degrees and snowing. The vigors may seem tacked on, but they make for a more fun experience. The mass shooting also makes for a more fun experience. Taking that away may make the story more reasonable, however it would also make the game less entertaining. In conclusion, I want Infinite to be about using the sky-hook to dive bomb enemies and hop from street to street siccing crows on people in fast past action, rather than walking around empty streets doing absolutely nothing because it helps the story feel more realistic.

[@edwardjosh7449]

5:38 oh you mean like if there was a Mario movie where yoshy was a Dino and other stuff like that not like there was or anything

[@cornRipper]

I think a great example of this done right is Sly Cooper 1 to 2. The second game holds much of what makes the Sly Cooper games amazing and addicting, while not pinning themselves to older mechanics and designs of the the first game. In fact they changed and expanded upon older design choices to make the sequel game better in areas where the first game lacked rather than just try to cut/paste the previous one. This is especially noticeable to me when I played Sly Cooper 2 before the first one. So when I went and played Sly Cooper 1 afterwards, it was startling almost at first by how the world wasn't open and fluid in its mission selection but more arcade menu like. However, I could still feel the world was the same comic book styled stealth & action game even if how I interacted with it was different.

[@The0thMonkey]

Watching this makes me realize how much better Extra Credits is at reviewing games than other reviewers.

[@Mormodes]

Excellent episode. I was definitely one of those people that knew the combat felt wrong, but wasn't really sure why. However, there is a point in the game where the violence and scavenging makes sense; it's during the rebellion. I do agree with this episode though, even though I also thought the game was really amazing.

[@davidabeats]

That point about dissonance was my favorite one, very good points all around, learned a lot

[@meghandenny6922]

Or you know that moment we we found out that Valve almost didn't put portals in Portal 2. They were going to put in this new mechanic that testers loved but were sad there were no portals.

[@SilverBiata]

I can totally understand and appreciate this analysis though I have not played Bioshock. But I can still appreciate it from a player's point of view of playing FF series. I agree. Depth and new routes are important.