In Theory: Can 4K DLSS Really Work On Next-Gen Switch Pro?

[@cheese_crab]

This was a really cool thought experiment. I didn't realize how dramatic the image improvement from DLSS could be even from 720p internal.

[@arthurb5194]

I think enabling DLSS on PC at 1080p upscales from 720p internally. It looks pretty good and I keep it on for games that support it

[@pyramidschemer4083]

@@arthurb5194 on balanced mode I think it's 720p Performance is probably closer to 540p

[@arthurb5194]

​@@pyramidschemer4083 Yeah Performance mode tends to look a bit iffy when I tried it in Control and the Back 4 Blood demo, at 1080p. Still, it's an amazing piece of tech and I hope AMD does an AI upscaler in the future too.

[@dannonyogurt98]

Most people don't seem to. When I say it's the future of gaming, the PC cucks always take offense. How dare I doubt native resolution.

[@user-jc2in3cp3g]

@@arthurb5194 performance mode is for 4K, I wouldn’t go lower than quality mode for 1080p if you even neee dlss for 1080p

[@Gehab]

Videos like these are my favorite on DF! Such a cool experiment. DLSS is such an awesome technology! Really good job on the video and script.

[@Alex-nk8bw]

True. I couldn't care less about raytracing, but DLSS is a fantastic technology.

[@Horatiuy]

Making games look good on a potato is the future of gaming and helps nature and our future too.

[@dial2616]

In a sense. ARM is just not very well-equipped for gaming in it's current state, our current optimization on x86 is aggressively optimized for SIMD operations and lookup tables, both of which are ARM's weakest point.

[@theninjamaster67]

@Russell White Having a good gold efficiency power supply helps a ton too cause it waste far less power while still putting out the amount you need.

[@3lH4ck3rC0mf0r7]

@@dial2616 The shift to more aggressive multi-threading in next-gen might help with Intel shifting to big-little architecture, which is something ARM has had for a while. Having that in common will make port optimization just a little bit easier for ARM.

[@bunnyfreakz]

Virtual Reality desperately need it

[@souljastation5463]

Beware that this is the reasoning that gave birth to the PS4 and Xbox One, 2 system with a CPU so underpowered that effectively hindered game development (or at least shaped it not in a good direction: flashy graphics but little interaction).

[@NikHem343]

The comparison of native 720p upscaled vs. 720p DLSS upscaled is absolutely mindblowing. Thanks for showing that so well.

[@maratnugmanov]

14:26 The DLSS is so effective that I can clearly see the text on the car saying "Аварийная". I don't know how it resolves this from the 720p source. Mind-blowing actually. And instant game changer.

[@Lykon]

Taking information from other frames basically.

[@SirDragonClaw]

The trick is its actually resolving it from a 1440p source spread out over the past 4 frames. Basically every frame the 720p source is offset by half a pixel which allows it to sample different data even when the camera is really static. By doing this over 4 frames you get 4 unique 720p frames with different data, then with some AI upscaling you get that amazing result. (Note, this is a very simplified explanation of whats going on, but the gist of it is correct)

[@maratnugmanov]

@@SirDragonClaw hmm, sounds like a checkerboarding.

[@Nandru85]

@@SirDragonClaw Thanks! I was wondering the same, where did it get that extra info! The Doom eternal cutscene example was what triggered my curiosity, you can clearly see stars that basically aren't there in 720p. Again, tbanks for that eli5!

[@nextlifeonearth]

@@maratnugmanov The old checkerboarding doesn't keep as much temporal data. It also goes through a pass of AI inference, but I'm not that convinced that it adds a lot in detail and is more used to get rid of temporal artefacts that they couldn't resolve with a motion vector map.

[@xellostube]

we need an updated video about Switc 2 and Nvidia Tegra T239 btw, great job! I still dream to be with you guys, nerding about tech specs in your studio

[@Avm371998]

I dont need 4k, all i want is games to run at a stable 60fps

[@pleasuretokill]

Yup. A solid, locked 60fps is my only requirement for gaming.

[@perfectlyslicedegg3348]

Yeah even the latest and best Mobile chips struggle to run games at 60fps. Its just not that viable right now. Just accept 30.

[@minecraftpvp8040]

@@perfectlyslicedegg3348 Like what exactly?

[@TheGoncas2]

@@minecraftpvp8040 The Steam Deck.

[@Blacktrous]

All I need is 4K at 120 fps

[@lookatthisjamoke]

lowest expectation of a next gen switch: Tegra xavier NX highest expectation: Tegra ampere built on 8nm with DLSS. Sucks but nintendo is probably gonna destroy even my low expectations

[@MZmakesgames]

classic Nintendo

[@trixniisama]

Well next generation Switch, that means at least in 2022/2023, using Xavier wouldn't make any sense. Orin will already be a few years old, exactly like how the X1 was 2 years old when the OG Switch released. And they released it in a hurry to get sales to improve. This time they will do it better. Much better ? Who knows. But better.

[@ivand5699]

Man i wish for the latter.

[@CyborgSodaCollects]

Nintendo will spend as little money on r&d as possible and make something that is just good enough.

[@Sly2Cooper]

@@trixniisama Nintendo always goes with the cheapest solution: GameBoy/GameGear, DS/PSP, 3DS/Vita -> Switch2/Steamdeck.

[@hoolopee]

such a great video! I think 1440p DLSS would be a perfect sweet spot

[@bareq99]

And 60fps

[@WDeranged]

DLSS is so impressive. I can't wait to upgrade from my 1080ti...eventually.

[@S94-l9w]

Worth it. When you get the chance go for it. Also, scary profile pic...

[@brunomiiguel]

Can't wait to one day upgrade to a 1080ti 🤤

[@melxb]

@@brunomiiguel can't wait to one day want to say that I can't wait to upgrade to a 1080ti

[@ZAGAN-OZ]

Its good but it depends on the game. I feel like problem with PC right now is actual good games.

[@cannedolives]

I’m waiting for RDNA3 and Zen 4

[@tomjddavis]

Great video that explains the qualities of DLSS and differences between different modes and how they compare to each other and native res! Before seeing this I thought that they had to target a native 1080p for DLSS to really work properly, but now I would love a 4K 30fps / 1440p 60fps DLSS Ultra Performance Mode Switch 2! If they can target a 720p pixel count and do as much with those pixels as possible it makes more sense than targeting 1080p but sacrificing the rendering, lighting, etc.

[@gogreengameon2146]

4K 30fps? 🤮 ...Each to their own.

[@carlosfer2201]

@@gogreengameon2146 so like all PS5 and Xbox games in quality mode

[@HALFSQUASHED]

@@carlosfer2201 yeah.....🤮

[@renatoramos8834]

The switch 2 won't have any difficulty getting 4k 60fps games with dlss.

[@Umbruh_Prime]

I'd really rather dlss be used to leave 30fps in the past, evening it's not at native 4k, the temporal image you see at a higher frame rate will be much cleaner than having native 4k but a juttery camera

[@jannclaudebinoya]

1080p 60fps would be enough for me at that screensize

[@brady9592]

I find 30 year old 16-bit snes graphics at 60fps more appealing than compromised, upscaled low-framerate modern titles.

[@gehtdinichtsan309]

@@jannclaudebinoya but some people do play switch in docked mode on a 4k-tv. for handheld imho 720p is still good enough at that screen size, it's just .. switch player don't actually know what 720p looks like, because almost every 3d game renders at a lower resolution, making the image look blurray and kind a mess (e.g. xenoblade 2).

[@lordquaggan]

60fps requires the CPU grunt to be there as well though, which DLSS cannot help out with. Assuming an NVIDIA Tegra SoC is used, the Switch 2/Pro/Super/whatever will be using an Arm processor, which is unlikely to drive more complex game logic at above 30 fps.

[@D71219ONE]

@@jannclaudebinoya I think they’re going to stick with 720p in handheld mode, just for power consumption purposes, so high frame rates shouldn’t be difficult. They’ll let it draw more power to reconstruct to higher resolutions in docked mode.

[@RidgeRacer]

I theoretically loved hearing about what the future may hold. Possibly leaving a like.

[@brandonshaffer3940]

Actual multiplayer online games where we can actually chat. 4k or at least 4k upscaling. HDR. 60fps. This is what we want and should be able to get with a console in 2025 even on Nintendo.

[@eugkra33]

6:15 "assuming a linear scaling factor" This is what I've been curious about. How much of the DLSS time is used motion predicting, and how much is actual inference? Maybe only half, or 1 millisecond not the whole 1.9 is based on inference.

[@paradigm2841]

yeah that's a big assumption considering the rest of the analysis is based on it, I would have liked more depth here

[@TheGoncas2]

It's practically all 1.9ms, what else would that additional time be using besides DLSS?

[@photonboy999]

I don't think breaking down DLSS matters for his point. He was just saying if it takes 1.9ms to do something given 110TOPS (and similar architecture) then how long does it take if you only have 20TOPS? His assumption assumes basically IDENTICAL architecture hence the linear scaling. If you compared a GPU at 100% frequency then compared at 20% frequency you should get 5x difference in TIME to process. He only did this to estimate how long DLSS would take to do the same task with less processing power to see if 60FPS is even feasible for certain types of games. You don't need to break down what's going on with DLSS any further. (I'm not sure how easy it would be to break down "motion predicting" vs "inference" as it's all kind of tied together and is going to vary greatly depending on what's going on in the scene at a given time. Which is why, as he said, the best-case for DLSS is a static image. In that case there's NO motion prediction obviously so in a sense the DLSS "time budget" can be spent just making a static image look better without wasting time doing other calculations like getting rid of motion artifacts.)

[@eugkra33]

@@TheGoncas2 The temporal information. Motion vectors that can be done on any GPU.

[@eugkra33]

@@photonboy999 I would think you still need to do motion vectors even if the camera is not moving. You don't know if a vector is 0 unless you calculate it first. You can't just rely on the camera movement and tell it to skip the temporal part if the camera is still, because thousands of other things in the screen could be moving. The still image at 12:28 still has motion. The character breathes, and the background is moving. In addition to that XeSS works the same was as DLSS. It implements "Jitter" It moves the image on purpose to causing every frame to have motion vectors. It needs motion vectors in order to produce usable results. It hates 0 vectors.

[@ricardolmendes]

Beware of the performance/consumption scaling. Those are far from linear so the predicted TOPS of a 10w solution can be very far from the 20TOPS estimated. It could be as high as 30-40TOPS which would greatly change your cost estimates (if looking at Orin which has a different topology so it makes it a bit hard to do an apples to apples comparison).

[@Nago15]

DLSS is awesome. It blows my mind a lot of people compare it to FSR and say it looks the same, while in reality they are on a whole different level.

[@JagsP95]

They're still doing that to this day its crazy how oblivious fanboys are.

[@sickre]

720p internal + handheld resolution; 1440p docked (with DLSS) resolution, all at 60fps, seems most reasonable. A lot of 3rd party games run at 540p handheld so 720p is still a big upgrade from the better hardware.

[@phunkstar7347]

even first party games dip under 540p in some situation. would be nice to see dlss in nintendos hardware. but like always nintendo cooks its own soup. and we will never see dlss -.-

[@frederikgoogel5611]

I dont think dlss works that way. The image quality would still be better with 720p to 4k ultraperformance than upscaling it to just 1440p. Havent tested it tho and it wouldnsurely help with frametime.

[@VexAcer]

@@phunkstar7347 The only ones that come to mind are the Xenoblade games and Yoshi's Crafted World. For the most they're usually either native or keep a native res most of the time with small res drops at times.

[@cakeisamadeupdrug6134]

I was thinking this when Alex talked about not using DLSS in docked. I think it will need to. Even in handheld you really notice it dropping to 540p. Personally I would DLSS up to 720p in handheld. It'll make ports like The Witcher 3 much more compelling on Switch, especially if the upscale in docked is so good that people don't notice the difference with the Xbox Series X version (apart from the framerate, obviously)

[@concinnus]

The tens of millions of Switch2's they'll sell is reason enough to make a custom variant of Orin or its successor with extra tensor cores. If they're only active while the rest of the silicon is dark, the power should be fine.

[@vishxification0]

yes if weve learned anything from the past gen by looking at switch's sales is that the audience is really picky about how they look and perform /s

[@Navhkrin]

Or alternatively they could create custom DLSS for Orin instead, which would be significantly cheaper. They can take advantage of the fact that we know screen size for Switch Pro and it will always stay same.

[@ZK-ff2ru]

@@vishxification0 Better hardware = More expansive games = More customers

[@343ishill]

@@vishxification0 Releasing better hardware is not appealing graphics to their consumers, it's about getting 3rd party devs to manufacture for their platform.

[@vishxification0]

@@ZK-ff2ru im not sure thats how it works. at all.

[@219SilverChoc]

Even temporal reconstruction methods are getting really close, Controls default reconstruction without DLSS gave me good results when running at 1008p on a 1440p screen.

[@ExcelsiorTech]

As the old axiom goes "A burnt child dreads the fire...". Every time we look at the possibilities of what Nintendo can choose we get excited. Nintendo usually goes much more conservative and disappoints us. Then they make a bunch of awesome games and we forgive them again. It's a vicious circle. :-)

[@oskarmariagrande1855]

Nvidia CEO Jensen Huang is a very ambitious man though. He could pull it off, upselling both his team and Nintendo “to stick it up” to Steam Deck, Series S and ultimately AMD. But can he do it really, though? Maybe someone should send him the link to Alex analysis here ;P

[@paulvenn4447]

They never do what the fans want and it's annoying af

[@alexsilva28]

Exactly. Before people get excited they must remember this is Nintendo we are talking about. They just gave us a freak LAN port ffs... in 2021!!! I'm sure DLSS is a major priority for them lol

[@dudemanismadcool]

Imagine a new wave racer with ps5 performance behind it :(. A man can dream....

[@ruekurei88]

Not really. Before Wii, that wasn't totally true of their consoles, and after Wii, it was more of odd and surprising hardware choices. Hell, I personally didn't peg them to go with an Nvidia solution at all with the Switch and I didn't expect the Switch concept as well, nor was I expecting 3D gimmick of 3DS. It also kinda depends on their 'gimmick' for their next console, since it may not be a straight up 'Switch 2'.

[@carllavery4442]

Really enjoyed this one, if anything it was as useful as a video on the benefits of DLSS as anything else. It's great listening to Alex talk about this and ray tracing

[@ericwilson5203]

I wish DF would revisit this in light of the Nvidia leak of the T239 to be used in switch 2. Napkin math on that is 1536 cores between 768mhz and 1 Ghz = 2.4 - 3.0 Tflops and 150 tops!!! It also means that his experiment with 110 tops taking 1.9 ms to upscale 1080p to 4k would only take 1.4 ms with 150. The real question is the power and heat though. T239 is a scaled back version of the T234 @ 45 watts. How many watts would they save by scaling back GPU from 2048 to 1536, clock from 1 Ghz to 768 MHz, CPU cores from 12 to 8, and memory from 32 gb to 16 gb? Does it cut wattage in half? Would that even be enough? And/Or is this T239 the same as the Orin S-1 camera chip with just 36 tops and 15 watts?

[@NeoTechni]

"I turned off motion blur on purpose" Like a normal, sane, person with good vision would. I wish we'd push more for more options on consoles. Like NOT having upscaling. Take Vita in particular, many games run at sub-native resolutions, and many of them can be hacked to run at the native resolution with "over"clocking (compared the standard clockspeed, since it's just pushing Vita to it's rated clockspeed) and the VitaGrafx plugin make them run smoothly. That should have been an option left up to us. Maybe we're fine with sacrificing battery life for higher quality visuals. That especially should have been an option when Vita is plugged in, which would have helped VitaTV more. The Halo games on 360 looked terrible cause of the upscaling. I would have liked an option to run at the internal resolution with a black frame around it. It would have been smaller, but it wouldn't have been a blurry mess. I want less upscaling. Less interpolation.

[@Hello-ig1px]

speak for yourself, weirdo. who tf wants to play on 65+ inch tv while only really getting 38 inch's with the rest being black bars?

[@NeoTechni]

@@Hello-ig1px me, if it'd be blurry as hell like Halo 3 was

[@Hello-ig1px]

@@NeoTechni Uhh well how about you use a smaller screen then? You will get the same results, go play your games on a 16 inch monitor.

[@3lH4ck3rC0mf0r7]

@@Hello-ig1px Getting more options to finetune games is fine by me. In many games I'd rather trade image fidelity for better framerates, or even push the console higher, back to its SoC's rated clocks. The thing about systems like the Switch is that they're actually underclocked in their stock factory configuration, to get the battery to last longer. I would've liked to have been given a beefier battery that allowed me the choice to push it back to its rated clocks and remove the stock underclock in the system, because while the SoC is rated for it and remains stable, they decided to use a battery that isn't rated for the greater power draw of the SoC running at its full strength, and can suffer permanent degradation under sustained use with the stock underclocking disabled. And that really sucks, because it locks people like me who have the know-how to perform this kind of tweaking to only using the system at its fullest when it's docked.

[@NeoTechni]

@@Hello-ig1px I shouldn't have to buy new hardware to get things software can do. And I'm not alone in this as there's a plugin for Vita (sharpscale) that does this

[@rajackar]

Interesting stuff. Do you think Nvidia might develop a custom version of this chip with more tensor cores that will only be activated in docked mode? This could dramatically improve DLSS performance without impacting battery life since these cores would only be used when upscaling to 4K is needed. If this is possible that would open the door to 4K upscaling with 60 fps in docked mode.

[@coleG112]

I wonder if Nvidia could find a way to make two of them work in tandem, so you would have one in the Switch giving you 720p/60 handheld, and then docked you'd have a second GPU to handle the DLSS and output. It would need some substantial cooling either way

[@rajackar]

@@coleG112 I guess this is theoretically possible but would be a very costly solution since it would require two chips and a high speed bus to connect the two. And the development cost on top of that.

[@MLWJ1993]

@@rajackar Not to mention the additional space required in an already fairly slim package. That's going to be a lot more bulky.

[@coleG112]

@@rajackar for sure. But it also would be an optional thing that all Switch users would benefit from, regardless of model. But I doubt they could pull that off effectively with the current chip. Maybe it’d be something they can plan on for the “Switch 2 Dock Pro” lmao

[@JZF629]

Nice thought!

[@clementcardonnel3219]

That makes total sense! Switch 2 has a 720p internal screen and so renders internally at 720p at all times. Not having to push for a better native resolution allows it to focus on next-gen graphics compared to the OG Switch. Then you plug it in its dock and DLSS is enabled to push quality over to 1440p/60 or 2160p/30. That would be glorious!

[@HueyTheDoctor]

The best speculation in the business.

[@finlaymartins272]

At 5:00 there is a typo where the text says naïve instead of native. Great video!

[@Dosnmeda]

Framerate is most important to me. So yeah, if they'd allow DLSS in performance mode, I'd definitely pick that.

[@the5gen]

DF is that rarity in a KZbin channel. Full of substance with style.

[@toastedoats5074]

Really love the comparison of dlss at different framerates. Always wondered how temporal techniques scale with framerate.

[@coleG112]

I wholly agree. I think a revamped cooling system in the dock, with a 720p embedded screen with 720-to-4K DLSS in docked mode would be gold. The Switch could have a hinged grill on the bottom that leads to the fan, and a phone-sized copper vapor chamber mounted on the dock could slot up into it? So it would look almost identical to the current vent setup in handheld mode, except the grill would be able to flip up to allow for a cooling pad to slide into the grill. Idk.

[@LawrenceJohnYoung]

I would have loved to test the TOPS performance by testing the dlss performance between multiple cards and see how performance scaled rather than assume linearly

[@Nabalazs]

I was so fond of theory crafting the potential performance of switch 2 for so long. But then the years went by. The console passed its 4th year on the market, and I sort of burned out on all the self hyping and imagining the possibilities. This video is the purest form of hype for me. The thing I love imagining. I love this type of content. Its also stroking my ego a litte, that we are on the same page about sticking to 720p, and working with that image. As the years went on, I started playing switch less and less in handheld mode, because I had nowhere to leave the house. So that makes me the more excited to see some 1st party titles in extra great quality on my big screen. While sub 1080p is fineeee, I do really really wish games could hit that native resolution goal at 1080p. I'm still dragging my feet on a 4k panel

[@Lykon]

Frankly speaking, a native 720p upscaled to 1440p with DLSS would already be great

[@renatoramos8834]

dlss reconstructs the image, it doesn't upscale. Also the switch 2 will run 10th gen games in 1080p easily while dlss will convert it to 4k.

[@quarterarcade8825]

This DLSS breakdown at lower resolutions is amazing; love the DF support for Switch :)

[@JZF629]

Great video! I’m surprised how good 720p looked reconstructed thru dlss! I absolutely love how good this tech is and I hope & pray Nintendo implements this at some level for the next switch, ESPECIALLY with a chip like Orin being used. We would be so lucky…

[@Rayvearn]

also great video, i love how alex breaks down the logic of technologies and lets you draw your own conclusions, while also providing his own personal thoughts

[@e2rqey]

I'd love to see Nintendo design a dock that significantly increases the cooling performance of the next Nintendo Switch. Something that would allow them to push the SOC to at least 20watts, if not more, would definitely be possible and could provide a pretty big performance increase as well.

[@Hybred]

At the expense of battery life. There is always a compromise and price to pay. You have to cut corners somewhere to make it affordable for consumers

[@e2rqey]

@@Hybredno. Not really. Having a dock with enhanced cooling that enables a higher power limit when docked would have no impact on the battery life since it would be getting power through the dock. Just make the dock have a USB-C connection to the Switch and 20W Power delivery would be super easy. Battery life is a complete non-factor in this scenario

[@santhoshsridhar5887]

@@Hybred So nintendo could increase battery. 200$ phones have 5000mah batteries. Most phones much smaller and thinner than the switch have 2 batteries(for fast charging at 50+w) totalling upto at least 4500mah capacity. The switch could at least hold a 6000mah battery. But Nintendo won't do shit.

[@neonix01]

@@santhoshsridhar5887 I'd rather have more efficiency than a bigger battery. The bigger the battery, the more the device will weigh. The Switch is already borderline too heavy for a handheld device for long play sessions. The Switch 2 should not become heavier.

[@TaskerTech]

DLSS is transformative for the entire industry, Nvidia deserves a prize for this the amount of savings in energy is huge!! I hope the intel tech is good as this.

[@mrcraggle]

The Switch running games at 720p with locked 30fps would already be a step up.

[@Smexbi]

Tell that the Software Developers.

[@heatmahnz4949]

Always cool to have DF swoop in and show us the actual technical and theoretical data of technologies like DLSS, most people would just say "Just add DLSS on the switch and boom its better now right?" Its great that DF can tell exactly how it works and even if it would be worthwhile to use on a device like the Switch

[@ishanawate1849]

This is a brilliant video, solid research and presentation.Great job Alex.

[@marverickbin]

Time to update the analysis for DLSS 3.0

[@trollzone1]

Alex makes the best videos. Humble in his approach but having profound depth of knowledge.

[@bim8498]

My perfect Super Switch: Full HDR pipeline overhaul, 720p OLED display, 4K UI and HUD when docked, DLSS to 4k, 60 FPS target in EVERY game... Oh and Bluetooth for headphones.

[@panopsata3038]

Man DLSS is awesome imagine gaming at 12k with only the cost of running 4k. And it just keeps getting better since the tensor cores can be improved and the DLSS process itself.

[@paradigm2841]

Are they selling 50-feet screen yet? :P

[@S94-l9w]

Yup. Loving this tech

[@Neilos-sd6ti]

Why would you need to go beyond 8k?

[@_Chad_ThunderCock]

Tech is amazing, but I find it hard to see the uses of gaming at 12k resolution. Only thing that would make sense at that res would be VR... Even then I think 8k should suffice.

[@_Chad_ThunderCock]

@@Neilos-sd6ti I also don't see the point.

[@jonwayne70]

I would imagine the Switch 2's dock would house more tech to boost performance in docked mode.

[@allseeingeye6668]

That was super cool Alex, I didn't realize Nvidia already had a Tegra chip capable of DLSS, but this makes me a lot more excited for a potential Switch 2, if Nintendo is willing to go the extra Mile. Will Intel's XeSS on the Horizon, I hope AMD also has a temporal solution outside of TSR in the works.

[@925blogs3]

9:34 I felt that "into", ha. Great breakdown as always of complex scenarios. Interesting to see if this all comes to pass.

[@EmceeJoseph]

I'd like to see Star Fox in 8k lol, since its basically just monocolored wireframes it should be easy enough

[@ralfk.7767]

It has been done with bsnes HD allready 👍

[@HeWhoGameZ]

Theoretically I could imagine that they could simply release a new dock that would have the ampere GPU inside of it and could maybe run at an increased power target, say 65W or maybe still cut down to 45W or less? They could release a new handheld switch with the updated CPU, RAM, but the same GPU as previous Gen on 7nm for more battery life. Then you could have either a slimmer/lighter switch or even more battery life.

[@paradigm2841]

Imagine being Sony or Microsoft if a new portable console with a great library can legitimately run at 4K :P Like suddenly fighting for the same market shares...

[@captainthunderbolt7541]

Especially since exclusives like Returnal could only run at 1080p anyway...

[@Demmrir]

You can run games at 4K but they'll be basic games with blurry textures and extremely simplistic lighting. It's not the same as true next gen games on real consoles.

[@nonyabusiness6084]

Handhelds & home consoles are still 2 different markets. It's not 4K alone that makes that difference.

[@TheSpaceking12]

They wouldn't have pokemon, and assuming nintendo secured exclusivity again, monster hunter. And a dedicated portable system can't really succeed without at least one of those games.

[@paradigm2841]

I get they still wouldn't have the gpu/cpu/ram/power to use modern lighting simulation, particules, name it. but still a hell of a shortcut where the other AMD based consoles are a little stuck, arguably wasting ressources on resolution still

[@JamalDolleyGames]

Awesome video Alex! Very informative and entertaining. I can still remember how impressed I was with your Control DLSS video, where you used 540p DLSS upscaled to 1080p. Truly next gen tech!

[@Jjydvfgcmsr]

I don't need 4k I just need decent 1080p at more than 15fps 😢

[@dwaynethemineraljohnson412]

What graphics card have you got that the performance is so bad

[@Code-n-Flame]

If they can implement DLSS it would be a game changer for Nintendo. They haven’t made a full fledged console since the N64. I don’t think they’re gonna do that anytime soon so DLSS helping their games achieve better performance would be an amazing feat.

[@SNMG7664]

gamecube?

[@paul1979uk2000]

Not quite as a gamer changer as we like to think as all the other platforms are implementing their own version of upscaling tech, basically, they all have the same advantage so the gap is still massive from Nintendo and the other consoles or even the Steam Deck for that matter. Beside, lets be honest, Nintendo doesn't really want to compete with the other consoles, they go out of their way to make so the performance gap is so massive to not step on Sony's and Microsoft's toes because they know they likely can't compete if those other two throw money at the problem, hence why Nintendo stays a gen behind. Problem for Nintendo is the Steam Deck if that takes off as that is more or less targeting that sector and doing it much better but Nintendo won't be worried yet because it's a long way on if the Steam Deck is a success or not, it's sure got a lot of hype around it and on the surface, it's far better than a walled garden that Nintendo offers.

[@winterhell2002]

Here is an alternative possible solution: Since it looks like DLSS is running on a dedicated hardware while the rest of the GPU is just waiting for the result and doing nothing, it seems plausible to be able to add 11ms-16ms, a frame of latency. While you wait for the DLSS to finish its rendering, you can perhaps be working on the 4K native HUD of the game, and the next frame as well. Less than 16.6ms added latency at 60FPS 4K might seem acceptable in a lot of games, if the alternative is a choppy 30 FPS or 1080p image.

[@AVerySillySausage]

It's somewhat more simple than it's made out here. At the end of the day, if you look at what the current switch looks like on a modern 4k screen as the baseline, any form of DLSS is gonig to blow that image away. I would never use DLSS ultra performance under normal circtumstances, it doesn't look close to native. But it's going to look better than literal 720p or 900p. It would make absolutely no sense for the next switch to not use DLSS in docked mode.

[@Soup-man]

I really hope Nintendo takes advantage of DLSS. Imagine Breath of the Wild or Monster Hunter Rise with it.

[@Sly2Cooper]

You'll just have to buy them once again for a new system ofcourse.

[@simons5484]

You don’t have to imagine. Emulators are scaling the image to 4k already.

[@bern9642]

@@Sly2Cooper most nintendo consoles are backward compatible by 1 or 2 generations. wii was backward compatible with gamecube. wii u backward compatible with wii. game cube backwards compatible. 3ds as well. it's likely switch 2 will be too.

[@syunafrost351]

There's way better looking games not sure why u would choose those 2 as examples lol

[@Sly2Cooper]

@@bern9642 and none of them do not enhance any game from previous gen in BC mode. Because how else will they sell you new version of their past-gen title for $60 once again?

[@livingcorpse5664]

I think Nintendo needs to focus on having stable 30fps or 60fps before thinking about things like 4K resolution and HDR. Hyrule Warriors 2 would drop frames to the single digits, it was bad.

[@enricp.2435]

It would be interesting to use this approach to get really modern graphics on the 720p small screen from a very low internal resolution. I wonder what's the resolution required to reconstruct a really good 720p image.

[@rainmanbk1]

Oh wow yeah. I wonder could you double the battery life of a switch in handheld. But I have a feeling the lower the starting resolution the more this technique breaks down as there is so little detail in lower resolutions.

[@OrbZero]

Alex, I think you forgot one comparison: adding DLSS vs adding “normal” render hardware. Get the energy cost of DLSS and use in raster/shading to generate more pixels, then use a simple upscaler. I think this might be interesting, because DLSS shines when there are enough pixels work on, but when talking about Switch (even a successor), pixel count is usually on the very low segment.

[@sunnysonny6454]

amazing video, I hope this will be true in Switch 2

[@colemin2]

The good news about the Switch 2 is, the longer they wait to upgrade the hardware, newer architectures become available to them. I want to see a Lovelace switch.

[@1KayBilly]

I love you, Digital Foundry. I am always happy when I see your videos in my feed.

[@shane_MK]

Not to nitpick, but the next gen console would be the switch 2. The switch pro makes people think of the rumored revision that is very unlikely to exist. But it can't be next gen and the pro.

[@mjc0961]

This is _Nintendo_ we're talking about. Switch 2 is likely the last name they would pick.

[@shane_MK]

@@mjc0961 I agree. But the same goes for the "pro". It's more likely to be the new Nintendo switch as the revision and the switch U for the next gen console. But either way, pro and next gen don't belong together. That's conflating the revision with the successor.

[@bern9642]

@@mjc0961 after the fiasco of wii u, there is no way they will go with switch pro.

[@bern9642]

@@shane_MK I agree, if switch call it switch 2, some youtubers will call it switch pro. lol. Nintendo will have to come up with a whole new name.

[@bern9642]

@@clayjack9969 it won't be called switch 2. lol when has nintendo ever done that? and I really doubt nintendo will use pro when sony and co use it. Nintendo will go with something very new. they went from famicom to super to 64 to gamecube to wii to wii u (which failed) to switch. the next name be something none of us will be able to predict.

[@denda2643]

Excellent work, Alex. At first i thought this Video has to be made by rich, but honestly i couldnt think of a way he could have done better than you did. You are such a great addition to DF. You are raising its value. Einfach erstklassig!:-)

[@adamdavis1737]

I have thoroughly enjoyed my switch, but I'm far more interested in the steam deck for portable gaming from here on out. I play far too few Nintendo exclusives. Mario is about all I care for. Breath of the wild was fun for a bit but I didn't think it was as great as everyone else did.

[@ProfessorBelz]

Only reason anyone has a Switch is for the exclusives. Some have been underwhelming, but overall having a Switch for the exclusives are worth it. Should definitely have something else for third party games.

[@HeloisGevit]

@@ProfessorBelz Yet the Steam Deck will have so many more games that you can't play on Switch than vis a vis. And that's without getting into Switch emulation on the Steam Deck.

[@deviouslaw]

@@HeloisGevit Yes, but who cares when all of said games will be available on literally every platform.

[@Darklink1017]

Steam deck will eventually be able to emulate the switch. Either this iteration or the next. But it's coming.

[@Zveebo]

Yet, the Switch will still outsell the Steam Deck 10:1 no problem. Ultimately the Steam Deck is just for playing the same games you already play on a tonne of other systems at better quality. While the Switch offers games you get nowhere else. I don’t think the Steam Deck is bad, but let’s not kid ourselves that it is going to be a massive seller outside hardcore gamers.

[@Winston-1984]

I think I’d be happier with an internal res of 720p with a basic DLSS that takes it to 1080p, if the frame timing would allow 60fps and maybe detail levels going up on ports like the Witcher 3. That’s just me though.

[@deus_nsf]

Keep in mind also, DLSS on the Switch would be utilized only in docked mode, so maybe there is something Nvidia can do to draw more power out of the switch when docked, to juice up DLSS better.

[@nihren2406]

One thing to keep in mind is that this is theorizing based on NVIDIA's lowest end Tegra Orin. But they do have a somewhat more powerful chip right above that, the Orin-S, at 15W. According to Kopite7kimi, the Switch Pro's chip is at least based on Orin so it will in that family, but it's a completely custom chip. So it won't be recycling a full existing chip, it just might use one, like the ADAS or Orin-S as a base. I don't think they would go higher than the Orin-S and its 15W though due to battery life concerns.

[@Ayvan]

For Nintendo, it seems more reasonable to target 1440p DLSS with 720p internal resolution. 720p@60fps native for handheld, and 1440p@60fps DLSS for docked, and if 4K TV used, they can use additional upscaler, integrated in dock, with AMD FSR or any other "not deep learning" upscaler. 720p --(DLSS)--> 1440p --(FSR inside dock)--> 4K

[@kelownatechkid]

Interesting thought experiment! 30fps needs to die for TV gaming, period. The focus should be on 1080p60 across the board for switch docked. 1080p works great on 1080p displays (obviously), and is perfect on 4k too since it can scale perfectly.

[@dottyorb]

The most interesting thing about DLSS for me, in terms of a switch pro, is that It would most likely be possible to apply it system wide, meaning that the developers wouldn't need to create a patch in order to improve the graphics of their games on the new system.

[@carlosfer2201]

yeah, the fact that it would hardware integrated and native for the consoles makes a huge difference

[@gabepvpz]

This probably isn't possible since dlss needs 16k images of in game content to train dlss for that specific game, but I believe if a switch 2 with dlss were to happen Nintendo and Nvidia would make it easier to do that by then

[@OldkidLivegen]

The Switch Pro could be much simpler and cheaper than that and still allows games to reach 4k resolution in docked mode. They just need to put a second X1 SoC in the dock and use the same AI upscaling that is used in the Nvidia Shield TV. A normal Switch console send the 720p image to the dock and the dock's upscaling chip use AI upscaling to output it in 4k. That is the more cost efficient way to do it.

[@ibonitog]

2:37 doesn't TOPS mean tera operations per second? 200 operations per second would not be impressive :D

[@AkilanKamarajan]

Yes, It is Trillion Operations Per Second (TOPS).

[@NavJack27gaming]

cool analysis. using nsight on DLSS titles can show how DLSS usually has a higher frametime than TAA in most games but it is covered up by the total gain in fps. but the DLSS frametime is usually quite fixed based on the hardware and is less based on the game or engine.

[@Maxim123499]

This is exactly what I want to be in the next Switch. Thanks Alex for spending time tinkering with idea!

[@philwalker7160]

Fantastic episode!

[@JJSideshowBob]

Everyone: Expects word on the new PS5 revision DF: Drops video about DLSS on a hypothetical Switch Pro Never change 🙂

[@bendjinzau2495]

Fantastic video Alex. Thank you !

[@akademiacybersowa]

This video seems oddly relevant now

[@Kylo_Ren_2033]

I think the "Switch 2" or "Switch Pro" will have a powerful custom designed SoC. The reason that Nintendo put Tegra X1 in Switch is simply because they don't know how many units will be sold. So, they can't take the risk of making a custom design chip. Now, Switch is a proven success, Nintendo can certainly make more investment in its hardware.

[@lorialabriel6165]

Bingo. Nintendo’s huge R&D investments reflect this idea

[@kupokinzyt]

Alex, if you read this, where'd you get that awesome looking battle scar? Much love,

[@sherlockholmes7630]

He once had some bugs during his depth prepass. and since then, it is there.

[@dampflokfreund]

He once got in a fight with a guy saying RT is just about puddle reflections and nothing more.

[@piyh3962]

He fought the youtube algorithm after his upload notification was not instant

[@sherlockholmes7630]

@@dampflokfreund ahahahahaha

[@terogamer345]

Awesome analysis as always, i did not know Ultra Performance DLSS was that good compared to native 720p, insane. But you know what i would love from a Switch 2? A "Pro" home console only version, make it 400 usd and powerful enough to iron out performance issues the handheld version may have. Maybe even enable Performance modes on games like we have seen on other consoles. The amount of people that only use the Switch as a home console should be big enough that this should be a no brainer.

[@Tylerannosaurus-X]

Switch pro is the PC via emulation

[@edelgado5663]

Emulates a Unreal 4 game haha no...

[@fosterfostan5593]

Or or Nvidia could develop DLSS 3.0 with less ms cost and maybe even better quality.

[@hazindu]

My big concern with upscaling is geometry. If you ever play a lazy PC port of a PS3\XBOX360 game at 2160p, the low poly meshes jump out at you. Take Assbutt Creed 4 Black Flag for example, if you sit a good distance from your TV, the console version looks great, but when you play at 1440p or 2160p, someone points a flintlock at you and you're clearly starring down a hexagonal prism barrel wondering how it will shoot cubic muskets...

[@aggamerytttv]

FINALLY! I’ve been waiting for someone in the tech community to mention this. I knew DLSS was possible on a new Nintendo switch based on my own research, but I was missing some important details. This video is what I needed to confirm my theory!

[@hooby_9066]

One big question - which I hope isn't completely stupid... Since DLSS is already using temporal data (i.e. more than one frame) - wouldn't it be possible to let machine learning fill in every other frame (at the cost of some added latency)? The game would have to render only 30fps initially, and DLSS could then bump that up to 60 fps.

[@linkurl]

I think its inviable, DLSS would need The Next frame to do the calc, but If The Next frame is already renderized so you dont need DLSS

[@hooby_9066]

@@linkurl at 30 fps each frame is shown for a length of 32ms. if you show the rendered frame for only the latter half of those 32ms, then you can use the first 16ms for the intermediate frame. this would add 16ms latency + a few ms extra for creating the intermediate frame

[@ChappyPapi]

They are still producing a system based off of early 2014 architecture, slapping an OLED screen on it and selling it for $400. I have a feeling the next switch will be just as underwhelming tbh. Gone are the days of Nintendo being an actual powerhouse with unique hardware.

[@TaimatCR]

Yeap pretty much, maybe will see a switch use this new soc around the 2027 year when it's dirt cheap for them(Nintendo) to buy it

[@nonyabusiness6084]

Very cool video. You have a great ability for taking very technical subjects & explaining them so they are very easy to understand.

[@skellurip]

1080p 60fps all day maybe with some 4k hud element sprinkle on top

[@budthecyborg4575]

It would really be silly of Nintendo not to beef up the Tenser Cores in Switch 2 to the point of making DLSS viable at 60fps. Those cores do not need to be working in Handheld mode, so even if half the SoC is all Tenser Cores, you can just run Native 720p with half the chip shut off for Handheld mode. Then you dock it and BAM! High quality 4K.

[@mssunshine8971]

Exactly

[@Mikel02127]

The comment section is toxic as usual. Awesome video, Alex!

[@Brogboolius_Maximus]

Wow, I have so many thoughts about this. First of all, what a fantastic way to answer the question of whether the Switch 2 could even handle 4k with DLSS. Comprehensive indeed. Secondly, it's truly impressive what DLSS can do even with so little source material (720P). Thirdly, if Nintendo does include upscaling, it will undoubtedly sell millions of units, and other console manufacturers would likely want/have to follow suit, which benefits us all. Fourthly, if Intel's XeSS is open enough (and competitive enough), then in several years, AI upscaling could just be a standard feature in all gaming, which again benefits everyone. All exciting stuff!

[@ThePsychoticWombat]

I don't think Nintendo will intend the console to play games in 4K, and I hope not, I would rather have more 1080P 60FPS games, or the choice like many games give now. Or just blow up the current Nintendo first party games(i.e mario kart, smash) to 4k and 60 FPS

[@Patrick-po6vx]

Dumb comments like this is why we got a medicore 2013 chip with crappy 720p oled screen in 2021 for fucking 350 Dollars.

[@ThePsychoticWombat]

​@@Patrick-po6vx Dumb comments like takes handhelds in a stupid direction, please tell me why you need more than 720P on a handheld console? I don't know about you, but I don't want a console that has an hour of battery life in-game, burns your hands and costs more than 800$ Also, I never mentioned the Switch Oled, and I agree that that machine is a POS in its current form, mostly because it offers no more than the screen. Now if it would have used a new tegra chip it would probably have been awesome, even if it just supported games in the native resolution and more stable framerates/bumped up to 60(most games are not 720P/1080P and sub 30 in some cases on the switch if you missed it)

[@Covarr]

There is, of course, also the possibility that a hypothetical Switch 2 would draw more power when running in docked mode than the Switch ever did. This would, of course, open up the possibility of DLSS with a lower impact on frame time, potentially even allowing 4k60fps depending on what power draw they target.

[@sevach]

I wonder if Nvidia shouldn't add a level between performance and ultra performance, 900p could enhance the quality a lot.

[@Worldwideweb1994]

I think even now it's possible to do that by changing some ini settings or something like that. I remember being able to do that to the DLSS in Control when it was using DLSS 1.0, and setting the input resolution to 1080p (with 1440p display) because even the quality mode was too blurry (ended up not using it in the end).

[@acdoob]

The tegra x1+ that is in the nvidia shield tv 2019 model is in the newer switch models and that chip supports dlss. the older chip the x1 is in the 2017 model and doesn't support dlss. They could be using it now. Maybe the new dock will utilize it.

[@handlemonium]

Is Nintendo more likely to pick a down-clocked Orin (Xavier performance) or the Exynos 2200 (mRDNA)?

[@_TheElMan]

They aren't going to ditch Nvidia after having such a successful product. Would make sense for backwards compatibility too. Nvidia wouldn't want AMD to have every console either.

[@handlemonium]

@@_TheElMan True that. I also wonder if another ARM OEM like Qualcomm, Google, or Mediatek would partner with Intel Xe graphics (or Nvidia RTX) once the new Intel and TSMC foundry fabs come online in the US around 2023.

[@_TheElMan]

@@handlemonium Intel could have their own SOC. Remember they have their own GPUs out soon