Life, Death & Resurrection in A Song of Ice and Fire

In Deep Geek - Insight and intelligent discussion on Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, Westworld and more.
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[@thelateescapist8266]

I know I'm not the first one to say this but I'll say it again, Robert would make an ideal measter. It takes a special kind of fellow to spend 3 hours explaining the logical mechanics of resurrection magic.

[@Djynni]

Catelyn's body doesn't get what's left of Beric's soul, she gets what's left of HER soul. If Catelyn got Beric's soul she'd have Beric's memories, not her own. Beric's soul goes wherever souls go when you die.

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Love your streams my dude.

[@samuelleask1132]

Great stream, Robert! Awesome topic today

[@anonymm3152]

I just made this up and want to know what people think: To defeat the army of the dead, they need to get rid of the magic that made them. The magic that makes the wights that is, not the Others, since they are just another form of life. This means removing resurrection completely, meaning that everyone who have been resurrected re-dies. This would make Jon have to sacrifice himself, making for some sad scenes. Ps: I'm sure someone else thought of this before me, but I dont know them.

[@nickycha8428]

Ice wights are reanimated. Fire wights are resurrected

[@KB_Espy2009]

I like that distinction.

[@booknerdlover3675]

I missed this and I’m sad! But the ice wights do have some memory of their past lives. Even Mormont states this to Jon after he is attacked. The wight went straight to Mormont’s rooms so they do sort of remember. I think that it’s only the barest hint of a memory, but it’s still there nonetheless. I also think that memory is held in the blood, at least in the books. I’ve wights have frozen blood, or none at all, so their memories are barely there. Beric whose blood isn’t frozen still retains memories, but each time he dies (more blood loss) & is resurrected, he is a little “less.” Robert Strong is poisoned so his blood is tainted so maybe his memories are going to be warped?

[@TGJoeyT]

Plot twist: The song of ice and fire is the act of burning Jon's frozen corpse.

[@AlexisMitchell87]

George’s use of death and resurrection seem to parallel baptism in the Bible . The old person dies and the new version of them is born.

[@jinxedsphinx3600]

is that not the Drowned God’s thing

[@constantinetranos2225]

The Bible's Baptism is basically a Redemption. Martin's use of death and resurrection is very ominous.

[@d2ncii8G]

“Bran took over Hodor and started doing things with his body”

[@Sabeaa]

IMHO, imagination may run a bit wild reading the text above😂🩸 if one remembers Bran's body limitations😜😜😜😜🤣🙃😘

[@signeaarejrgensen61]

I'm curious if Jon's ressurection will resemble Fitz' in Robin Hobbs books. They Seem to be very inspired of eachother.

[@signeaarejrgensen61]

And then you said exactly that😊

[@QueenDaenerysTargaryen]

Will Martin bring back Jon 💥🔥🔥🐉🐲🐉🔥🔥💥

[@TommyBombadillio]

Won Won = #11 Phil Simms NY Football Giants Super Bowl MVP Quarterback. GRRM is from Bayonne NJ and is a lifelong Giant fan.

[@praetorxyn]

I'm so sick of the "Sansa was just a little girl" defense. Arya is 2 years younger and 10 times smarter / stronger / more of a moral person than Sansa is.

[@heaven9926]

i was thinking the same thing

[@deonjames1041]

I’d just assumed Wun Wun was named after Ryan Giggs😉

[@bagladysendtheferalspinner3761]

Is ended(passive voice) has ended (present perfect)

[@thedeaforc]

Well said.

[@LSK1]

Yasssss!!!

[@shaunw.7299]

Anyone else feel the dire wolf sigil appears ver demonic? Makes sense if there is a connection between the starks and The Others. That its nkt just a wolf, and not just aDire Wolf. But something worse.

[@limonali]

lol at being your 666th like on this video ;)

[@Djynni]

When Bran witnesses the sacrifice at the weirwood tree, IMO him tasting blood in his mouth = Bran is "warging" into that tree and tasting the blood as the tree tasted the blood.

[@LadyOfShaIott]

Thank you Robert, the lore of A Song of Ice and Fire never stops giving - I’ve loved all your recent streams. Death, undying and resurrection are key themes in ASOIAF.

[@Djynni]

The only issue I have with Jon "warging" back into his own body, is that his own body is dead. Except for The Others, we don't have any examples of someone warging a dead body. So if Jon's body is going to be alive for him to warg back into it, something will have to make it alive. My bet is on Melisandre since making "fire wights" is the only example we have of taking a dead body and making it be the actual person it was before (as opposed to a zombie like the ice wights). I agree with you that Jon won't suffer the same "loss of self" that Beric and Catelyn did because he's been "alive" the whole time in Ghost. But I don't agree that he can simply warg back into his dead body.

[@Purgers2]

I think there is a theory that he isn't actually dead just maybe warged because of the placement of the dagger stabs and the fact that he already fell by time the 4th dagger hit him and his heart went cold or something like that so he coulda already dropped into the snow and he never felt the 4th dagger sooooo maybe he didn't get stabbed in the heart like in the tv show. idk for sure might wanna look into it. I am not sure if I believe it I think he is probably dead and will be revived but there is a chance his body isn't dead. A chance. I think he got stabbed in the heart cause that's a whole ass thing with jon and his heart ect and that is him never feeling the 4th knife BECAUSE it hit him in the heart he was dead and fell face first. Or I think he didn't feel it because he warged into ghost but yeah I personally think his body's dead.

[@snowgall]

Very much agree! I was thinking the same thing as I was listening to Robert's explanation. Jon's return will be different from Beric's and Catelyn's, yes, because his soul never died, but his body presumably DID die, so some sort of magic/sacrifice should be needed to make his body not still dead. Simply warging back into it shouldn't be enough. (Sorry for responding to a 2 year old comment!)

[@Levacque]

I think it'll be a matter of both magics acting together to reduce how much of Jon is lost. Like, the resurrection will compensate for character weaknesses by undoing any wolfishness he might have picked up from Ghost, and the warging will compensate by retaining Jon's full memories. He will not be able to enter his dead body, certainly, but what about after Melisandre performs her rites? Which magic will take precedence? My argument is neither.

[@blitz8425]

GRRM: Gandalf should have stayed dead Also GRRM: So anyway I started reviving

[@nimrodgrrrl]

Just caught the end of this one and it was great as always! Thanks Robert!

[@thelateescapist8266]

I kinda like the idea of Arya and Stoneheart being reunited and having a shared catharsis through viciously murdering their enemies together. And maybe it would be Stoneheart who would decide that Arya should give her the gift of mercy, when she realizes the path she is leading her daughter down, decides that protecting what you love must come before destroying what you hate. Thus inspiring Arya to return north to be reunited with her siblings rather than heading south to finish her list. Maybe somewhere along the way we'd get a heartwarming scene between mother and daughter staged atop a pill of Frey corpses. 😅

[@nebulanigrimleonis3883]

Robert... its 2021. It is time to get yourself an HD camera. The low res is making my TV cry. LOL

[@blakebennett3987]

I do think something will need to revive johns body, be it fire magic or ice magic or something else. If you could just jump strait from your second life to your corpse why wouldn’t every skinchanger just come back to life? His body being frozen will persevere it, but the state it’s being preserved in is a state unable to contain a soul. I think it’s more likely that ice will preserve his body and ghost his soul, but something will need to repair or revive his body to make it a proper vessel. Considering a untrained red priest can accidentally bring someone back to life, I don’t see why she couldn’t. I figure the 2nd life and the ice vaults aren’t there to be the mechanism by which he is revived, but rather a justification to let him stay dead for weeks or longer yet not come back all lady stone heart.

[@praetorxyn]

The Farseer Trilogy is exactly why I hate the "Jon warged into Ghost" theory. I want to give George more credit than a blatant ripoff like that.

[@edpistemic]

homage! It's called homage! :D (Or is it that the good borrow and the great steal? I don't know ;)

[@praetorxyn]

@@edpistemic It would only be an homage if it was inspired by something without being EXACTLY like it. Examples of an homage in ASOIAF would be Archmaester Rigney once writing that history is like a wheel, and Trebor Jordayne, Lord of the Tor, whose sigil is a quill and whose House words are "Let it be written." All these are references to James Oliver Rigney Jr, who wrote the Wheel of Time, published by Tor, under the pen name of Robert Jordan, and who indeed had a lot to say about history being like a wheel.

[@jdhur3]

Thank you for thinking about the subtitles, I will be able to appreciate this live at its true value. Thanks again !

[@edpistemic]

I'm so glad you chose this topic and are going to do magic by the sounds of it! Can't wait. Would there be enough material to cover the gods of the ASOIAF world in a future stream? I know George has said they won't appear but a comprehensive round up of all of them, their possible actions and the best tin foil from the community on the gods would be great. Much love from Kent! :)

[@kierafurneaux3172]

I want to see Sandor be called up as a champion to fight Gregor, and he only does so to Put Gregor to rest.

[@kierafurneaux3172]

Him seeing what was done to Gregor would bring him a tiny mote of sympathy and catharsis

[@tywinlannister8341]

Next topic: Greatness of Lord Tywin Lannister! Thank you

[@staytuned2L337]

Booooo I'm sorry I missed this D= putting this on the rewatch!

[@mikeykrizzles7830]

It was good I watched but didn't chat today I didn't charge my phones and was tired

[@carlrood4457]

There's also the possibility that if Jon is frozen, his body will be as hard as stone.

[@thedeaforc]

I lived in Northern Canada and frozen is Frozen.

[@npickle54]

@@thedeaforc how much frozen is frozen?

[@thedeaforc]

@@npickle54 -57 c frozen

[@dd11111]

🎵What do we do with the burning princess, What do we do with the burning princess, What do we do with the burning princess? ...🎵

[@Gotblade]

Let's hope George can flesh out the rest of the story before he is in need of resurrection himself.

[@npickle54]

George porge bellyblobs bellyflobs bellytubs bellytlubs bellyflubs bellyrubs bellyblubs

[@Blackburrd]

@@npickle54 BellyChubs, BellyRubs, BellyChuncks

[@npickle54]

@@Blackburrd 🦆

[@Levacque]

Well, obviously the raven is going to say, "Ghost, Ghost! Snow!" "Ghost" is already basically the sound a raven makes when it caws because of its deep voice..

[@jamiemckenna2254]

Looking forward to another epic class from Ser Robert the Scholar Wight; always learn at least one new thing every week: The thought of Robb dying violently TWICE by warging into Grey Wind is even more heartbreaking. 💔Carry on, @in deep geek 🥂 Cheers from the LBC.

[@carlrood4457]

Wouldn't Jon's body need to be tended to BEFORE his sould re-enters? Unless the argument is that it technically was never dead and he warged out before, there's still blood loss and internal organ damage that would need to be healed. Otherwise, his soul or whatever is just going into a dead body.

[@matorchiana]

I think Jon is alive in a ghost, but his body is dead, he was stabbed in the heart and other fatal wounds. To return they have to heal his body, maybe that's why the sacrifice ... of Shiren ... or Monster .. ??

[@nimrodgrrrl]

I do like the idea that Arya could kill Cersei wearing Tommen’s face, then it works both ways. She’s the little sibling dressed as the little brother. I still think it’s more likely to be Jaime, though.

[@maegliinvalantor6441]

Just remember, the hound also killed the butchers boy, and it probably wasn’t the first time he did something like that. Doesn’t matter if it was under orders. I feel bad for the guy and I’d like to see him find peace, but it may be that he doesn’t deserve it either.

[@bryonystitch]

What if cercie gets pregnant, dies in childbirth (killed by the little brother) and is reserected by qyburn as the white bride

[@bradlyrose]

I think Robert Strong is a play on "The Re-animator" not "Frankenstein".

[@TheTam0613]

I'm sorry that I missed this live stream, Robert! But I love that I can watch it afterwards, usually 2-3X, and really can focus on any parts in which I'm not really clear about. Thank you so much for all your wonderful content!!

[@estel5335]

Thanks to all the mods, enhancing our weekly IDG watching experience!

[@nunya___]

Why is that picture on the wall so oddly placed?

[@SHARKVADERS]

IDG!!!

[@rchr5785]

❤

[@SmileHeartXD]

:D

[@Freakivo]

You said a sacrifice won‘t be necessary for Jon‘s resurrection. But how will his wounds be healed? Doesn’t that need some kind of fire magic? I really hope Jon changes a lot when he comes back, otherwise why show us how it effected Beric and Cat.

[@jmace2424]

Show Jon might as well have stayed dead for all the difference he made.

[@LoneWolf-ro9sj]

robert,you forgot about the most known wight in ASoIaF its a point of vieuw melisandre is for sure a fire wight she dont sleep allways forgot to eat and more its a very big chance she convinced egg to hatch dragons in summerhall

[@stoffelstrange5215]

if the gravedigger is sandor and he does come back, it will be really cool how arya and sandor both go throw a period of disillusionment trying to leave their identities behind only to return and help save humanity in some way. their stories have been so intertwined from the beginning

[@esco6004]

I would love to see a movie named Patch Face (even though we don't yet know the ending to his story). I'd like it to be sorta like IT. PF would be scary AF

[@nickycha8428]

Good point that if the hound kills the mountain in anger (not mercy) it devalues his character development and growth.

[@tracymcmillan9682]

I hate missing you live but thankfully I still have this. Wonderful stream, Thanks. ❤️

[@thedeaforc]

A streams with content, love it.

[@AzorAhaiReborn]

u look like Jeremy Sisto

[@karentargaryen7959]

always a bit confused by the Mountain (show)/Robert Strong (books). in the show Qyburn says he can save the Mountain and it's not really clear if the Mountain died and was resurrected or Qyburn did something else, but in the books Qyburn sends his head to Dorne, which would definitely mean death and resurrection.

[@KB_Espy2009]

Or the Mountain was reanimated like the ice wights as in Nicky Cha’s comment.

[@nicolashelbig2142]

U didnt cut the Black Thing out

[@bencarter3888]

Hi Robert, please forgive me if this is a silly question but if John gets thawed out on the fire, surely he wouldn't get burnt - being impervious to the fire due to his ancestry?

[@edpistemic]

I think impervious is show only. But his resistance might explain how he isn't burned to death the minute he wargs back into his human body.

[@KB_Espy2009]

@@edpistemic Dany survived the funeral pyre, so why wouldn’t her nephew?

[@edpistemic]

@@KB_Espy2009 I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure George is on record as saying that Khal Drogo's funeral pyre was a singular circumstance with a lot more to it than just Targs = 100% fireproof. In the books at least. The show went down the route of Dany = invulnerable to fire pretty quickly.

[@KB_Espy2009]

@@edpistemic one can hope, right?

[@Tom_H327]

Why are we still talking about this train wreck of a story?

[@willowdove6703]

Why are you here if you’re just going to be negative about it

[@Tom_H327]

@@willowdove6703 Don't worry your delicate little brain over it. If you do you will probably hurt yourself. I will not explain myself to you about my negativity any fuether. I'm unsubbed so I suggest you shut the F up and ignore me, otherwise I'll come back.

[@joshydarroch]

@@Tom_H327 Seek help 🤣