India's Myrmex Indikoi: Myth or History or BOTH? - Extra Mythology

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Herodotus, the father of history, chronicled the cultures and customs of the ancient world. Including one of the giant gold-digging ants of India! Making us wonder... is this history, Myth or BOTH?
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Artist: Jordan Martin I Writer: Duncan Fyfe I Showrunner & Narrator: Matthew Krol I Editor: Aidan Strite & Mac Owens
#ExtraMythology #MyrmexIndikoi #Mythology

[@extrahistory]

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[@danielsantiagourtado3430]

Thanks For this guys! Gonna keep it in mind. Love You all!😊😊

[@rohanabc2361]

4:32 he is not lying technically Greek people used to call Hara Krishna Heracles

[@The_Cyber_System]

Unfortunately Factor doesn't do low FODMAP meals. The video was good though

[@ietsbram]

When a myth starts to fit so neatly into the historical narative that it stops being a myth than it becomes a theory... A GAME THEORY

[@coxmosia1]

Now watch the 50's movie "Them." It's about giant ants that don't dig for gold. 😂😂

[@utuber1752]

You know what I think? I think Heroditus discovered hashish on this trip and was tripping balls during most of it.

[@nathanguzmantorregrosa5744]

Probably 😅😂

[@AnimeAngel88]

Sounds legit to me

[@stevenbenson9976]

Watching from a far distance people could look like ants. Maybe a hint of racism as well

[@callnight1441]

Seeing as Herodotus also believed in winged snakes, i think you could be right

[@philvanderlaan5942]

There is no evidence to the contrary.

[@TheCutethulhu]

I'm surprised I've not seen anyone make the Myrmex Indikoi into a D&D monster. Lion-sized ants with a hunger for gold and the strength of monsters? That's a dragon's new force of miners to expand its underground domain and increase its hoard.

[@weldonwin]

They're also deadly enemies with Gryphons, since in Herodotus' account, he says that Gryphons also lust after gold, which they mine from the rocks with their powerful beaks and do battle with the giant ants over one another hoards

[@ianthehuman]

Theyre going to have pack tactics!

[@weldonwin]

@@ianthehuman "Welcome to Dungeon Master Therapy, How Can I Help You Today?"

[@ianthehuman]

@@weldonwin "hey, so I gave my players lion-sized gold ants." "That actually sounds kinda cool! Whats wrong with the- You gave them pack tactics didn't you?" "ANTS ACT IN A PACK"

[@ASpaceOstrich]

Yoink

[@ettinakitten5047]

3:38 The dolphin story is actually plausible. There are documented instances of dolphins saving humans from drowning in modern times, too. Dolphins are very intelligent and can be quite altruistic at times.

[@jwg72]

Plus they have instinctual impulses to raise newborns to the surface to help them breathe.

[@jordinagel1184]

Dolphins are confusing. They’re simultaneously caring and intelligent, yet brutal and sadistic (don’t look up what they do to fish heads). Odd bunch.

[@ferretyluv]

There’s only one fully corroborated documented incident of dolphins saving humans. Everything before was merely anecdotal or folklore.

[@geobugseon]

@@jordinagel1184 How is that odd? Aren't we pretty similar, keeping animals both to care for them and literally farm them without much empathy?

[@riograndedosulball248]

Dolphins are literally us (if we were Ictiossaur-shaped marine mammals) We aren't a rational species as well, we do contradictory things all the time

[@SeptimusMagistos]

The explanation I heard is that the word "marmot" got confused with "mountain ant" Large furry creatures digging in sand that actually does have trace amounts of hold dust in it would certainly be a good base for the legend.

[@calhou91]

Yay Ted Ed!

[@gamingwithlacks]

Don't forget fools gold mixed in with that real gold. So it looks like there is more gold than there really is.

[@DragonwolfoftheSands]

Does that wordplay work in Ancient Greek?

[@ferretyluv]

That’s the story I heard. Or that marmots look like ants from really far away because Herodotus apparently doesn’t have depth perception.

[@WhereNothingOnceWas]

Maybe an injoke of some kind

[@Lomecron]

The "sheep that grew on trees" or "Vegetable Lamb of Tartary" is a great myth because it's cleary just a game of telephone about the cotton plant through several languages. "plant that grows cloth like wool" very easily becomes "plant which grows like sheep" Becomes a "sheep growing plant". Plus I love the idea of a plant-animal that just eats grass while tethered to the ground by its stem.

[@barbaros99]

I could have sworn I read somewhere that it was a translation issue - that the local word for "marmot" (or some other furry, burrowing animal) was very close to the Greek word for "ant", and that the gold dust fell from their fur when they surfaced. Of course, the "Herodotus didn't get local slang" version seems more plausible.

[@krankarvolund7771]

From what I've seen, it's not even a question of translation from tibetan to greek, Herodotus never traveled to India, he heard that from persian merchants, to which he spoke with a translator. So, he heard an account translated, from someone who had a lot of interests in overselling his goods, and probably also used translators in Tibet to speak to the locals... That's a lot of intermediaries that may have fudge the term XD

[@barbaros99]

@@krankarvolund7771 The worst game of Telephone.

[@gerardtrigo380]

Herodotus notes often that what he is relating is what he has been told by others, and since he did not visit India, it seems logical that this is one of those stories. If I am not mistaken his travels only covered the Mediterranean areas. If Memory serves he did visit the colonies in Southern France, Sardinia, Crete, Cyprus, Egypt, and other areas in North Africa and Spain, though if memory serves he said he did not go as far as the pillars of Hercules.

[@krankarvolund7771]

I was wondering where they heard that Herodotus travelled to India ^^'

[@pkgpk5564]

True Herodatas did not come to India but Megasthese did he came to India and lived here I do not know why he made this mistake

[@WaterShowsProd]

That was my understanding as well. I think he even said that was told this account of the ants, whereas the things he said about Egypt he specifically mentioned having seen them with his own eyes.

[@SnarkNSass]

I can't wait for the incorporation of giant gold digging ants into the ancient aliens narrative 😂😂😂😂

[@chheinrich8486]

Oh by the way, you have heard of netflix cleopatra documentary, well one critic called it "WORSE THAN ANCIENT ALIENS" damn 😅

[@christopheralthouse6378]

Well, remember that at one time, India was known to be home to giant gold-digging ants? They’re even notated in several famous historical texts…so…WHERE ARE THEY NOW? One word…ALIENS! 😅😂🤣

[@SnarkNSass]

@@christopheralthouse6378 🏆👑🤓😎💚

[@JessicaMcGee-fu2eq]

I have an Aunt that's a gold digger, does that count?

[@AnnoyingNewsletters]

Close enough 🤷‍♂️

[@resinks2269]

There was an OSP video on Herodot (in the history maker series) which claimed the ants were a mistranslation (I read that somewhere else too, but cant recall where). One of the bigger problems with Herodot is he just wrote everything down he heard stories about and didnt really question the sources of those stories in his works, so some of his stories are somewhat questionable.

[@krankarvolund7771]

It's also what Pliny the Elder did, and oh surprise he's the other one adding weird claims to the story :p

[@slintirreg]

This episode is brought to you by the secret ant levels from Command and Conquer: Red Alert

[@abhiramn474]

The dolphin one is likely true as dolphins have been reporting of saving nearly drowning people.

[@makennacornwall3288]

Herodotus mentioned wool growing on trees in northwestern India in 430BC. And then it took the western world 2200 years to "discover" cashmere fiber. The goats shed in the spring and use bushes and fences to rub off the itchy shedding wool. Just like with the ants, it's easy to see how a local natural phenomenon being twisted into fable.

[@rage8673]

Dude that's Kashmir not Cashmere

[@makennacornwall3288]

@@rage8673 Cashmere is the fiber we make clothes from. Kashmir is the region on the border between India and Pakistan.

[@RikuIshmaru]

Maybe I am odd because I grew up with things like the Nihon Shoki and the Kojiki, but I tend to think that when these things get hard to explain - usually it might be because of someone speaking poetically like they would in the classics and someone down the line decided it was literal. To my mind, it would be easy to describe miners as ants: "And so it was that they crawled upon the earth, huddled in dusty masses as they carved their tunnels and heaped their mounds." Not too far of a stretch, I imagine.

[@snackplissken8192]

Considering that the Imperial Japanese labeled people who didn't worship the emperor as "dirt-spiders" and "woman-spiders" (from whom the Tsuchigumo and Jorogumo legends come) it would not be surprising if people in India referred to a disfavored group as "ants" confusing a hands-off historian like Herodotus.

[@danielsantiagourtado3430]

I love these mid week episodes guys! You always make my day!😊😊❤❤

[@CollinMcLean]

Oh I've heard of this one. It was actually a translation error that was likely describing a type of Marmot native to the area that digs up gold dust. The word for Marmot and Ant were just very similar to Herodotus.

[@ChristopherMB87]

Was... was that a Warcraft II gold mine you drew there at 5:31? That building has lived rent-free in my brain since I was eight.

[@kylepeeren6107]

Zug-Zug

[@abcdef27669]

Do you think that legend told as "fact" was insane? There is a story from the beginning of the 20th Century, during the Acre War (1899-1904), between Brazil and Bolivia. The bolivians were impressed by the violence of the brazilians when they fought with machetes and long knives, and they told weird stories about the enemy weapons. Some of those stories said the brazilians always born with a little iron knife by side, and that same knife became longer, as his owner got older, turning into a machete after adulthood.

[@draggador]

Equipment which levels up with the player in a game.

[@siprus]

Herodotus quite explicitly said that he just recorded what he heard and saw. It is kinda funny how our inability to engage with stories that might or might not be true hasn't changed across the time. He didn't claim that his stories are true he just claimed that's what people told him. By telling the raw story it's left to us how we interpeted the story, and in some sense this is much more useful than herodotus himself interpeting the story, because each time story is interrepted incorrectly it moves futher and futher from the original scenario that spawned it and multiple retellings it becomes completly removed from the circumstances that spawned it. By telling us the raw story as he heard it, it allows as to be that much closer to the actual circumstances that spaned the story. And makes it so that whatever interpetation we do from history is that much closer to the original circumstances. In certain sense he's quite unjustly critisized for his uncritical retelling of theory, because that uncriticality is what allows us to reinterpt and discuss the story so far removed from its original circumstances. There quite few scenarios that might explain why herodotus thought the gold was dug by ants. Maybe he heard about ant gold and ask for what it was and people were joking at his expense. Maybe ants in this case weren't literal ants, but group of people were called ants for whatever lingistic reason. Again if story teller tries to pass a story they've heard as fact its good to be critical of him, but when story is passed as just a story the responsibility is not on the story teller, but on the listener to engage with it critically.

[@ecurewitz]

People were messing with him and he believed it

[@thomasrinschler6783]

This is the point to bring up with Herodotus, he states he reported what he heard, but often times he himself says that he's skeptical, or when confronted with two differing stories, says the reader should decide for themselves which they think is true.

[@O378D]

This is one of my favourite Herodotus moments, I think it's quite probable he never actually went there, but just heard poorly translated stories as one theory goes about the similarity of the local word for ant and marmot. My other favourite I roughly remember is how he can't believe the story of a sailor who observed the sun traverse the other side of the sky, when in fact this is very plausibly a man who sailed past the equator!

[@WaterShowsProd]

Yes, I remember that as well. He was talking about claims that people sailed far South along the coast of Africa, and he doubted it was true because of the claim that The Sun was to The North. Where I now live The Sun crossed Zenith and enters the Northern sky at the end of April.

[@WaterShowsProd]

That was one of my favourite sections of Herodotus's Histories. I always thought he was told that story rather basing it on his own witnessing of it, as much of what he wrote was based on oral traditions he gathered. When seeing something for himself he mentioned it, such as The Pyramids of Egypt and the skeletons of flying snakes. In his book he wrote a detailed account of how Indians gathered the gold dust by using 2 camels, one of which had just recently given birth. During the heat of the day the ants remained underground growing increasingly furious about the theft going on on the surface. The gold dust was loaded onto the camel that had recently given birth, and as The Sun went down and the ground temperature began to cool, the plunderers would set off, just before the ants would emerge to take revenge. The camel with a newborn calf waiting back at camp had extra impetus to run quickly and get back, leaving the other camel behind, which the ants would overtake, thus allowing the collectors to return safely with the gold. This wasn't something he witnessed, but rather what he was told and believed. Whether the person who told him the story believed it as well is something we can't know.

[@chillzedd8179]

Ok but I believe the story about a musician being saved by dolphins tho

[@MasterShake9000]

Tangential, but I always thought the “Ethiopians sounding like bats” was a confused reference to African click languages

[@mujahidmahmood2444]

“That is just bad eyesight” You killed him!

[@schnitzel6852]

you should do an Episode on the Cynocephali (dog headed people), they also have a bunch of historical records all over the place They are also mentioned in the Indika, among ancient christian sources too, st. bartholomew apparently converted one in the east, a roman general captured one and turned him into a legionnaire and according to the legends st. christopher of lycia, a martyr from the 3rd century wouldve been one as well

[@doomdimensiondweller5627]

Also in Romanian there are the Căpcăun which are described as dog headed people As in Căpcăun seems to literally mean dog headed with " (căp being a form of cap, meaning "head", and căun a derivative of câine, "dog").

[@affanshaikh8492]

Intriguing! I need to dig into it more.... Always loved the Egyptian death God Anubis and recently discovered the druids and their enticing tales leading to wendigos so this could be an interesting tie up

[@the_idiot_eris5029]

I like this new style Keep it up!

[@blueroses4112]

Oddly appropriate that I got an ad for Raid bug spray right before this video 😂

[@theemries4766]

Corporate needs you to find the difference between this picture of a Tibetan gold miner, and a giant gold-digging ant. Herodoties: They’re the same picture.

[@SusCalvin]

Sometimes Herodotus relies on the accounts of others. He doesn't exactly lie about what he heard from others and especially not what he saw himself, but he chooses the most fantastic interpretation he can think of.

[@duckmaster5512]

The wool from trees sound like. That stuff from palm trees you can techniecly sow with, or hanging moss, it sounds like it could be either of those

[@kingmonster]

2:50 - I got to say, that is quite the way to leave a message. Though, now that I think about it, it's not so different from Akuma's message leaving skills.

[@mujahidmahmood2444]

Man you’ve gotten better at performing Indian names. The Kashmir and Ladakh pronunciations were not only relatively better but also more well spoken.

[@brandonnguyen6718]

It comes with more thorough research and feedback.

[@Fiery25123]

Oh MY GOSH I need merch of that >:3 Fire SO BADLY!!!

[@ZephyrGlaze]

Extra Bad Eyesight is my favorite EC spinoff.

[@user-ey5hl3ee9u]

I heard that the story of the Ants was just mistake in translation. Because he heard stories on marmots that live in Tibet. And they look like they dig gold sand out. And because in Persian both words sound similar. Then they thought that he just mistaken in the translation

[@hancocki]

How dare you say Eric of the Mallow Marsh is not real. His cousin Linguini is more commonly known as the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

[@TerrisH20]

I could easily see the myth having a lot of elements of truth to it. If there was gold dust mixed in some soil, I could easily see them moving it out of their burrows to more easily shore up their tunnel walls. Most of what follows could be easily seen as exaggerations. Tendency to swarm and painfully sting those that tried to dig up their nest, to the point that they wish they were dead.

[@zoidsfan12]

Literally at the start of the video I'm already seeing influence that elden ring took. The giant ants at gnawing on the roots of the erdtree are a great parallel, with themes of gold and such.

[@AngryWalrus22]

same

[@paleoph6168]

Perhaps the most famous animal myth from Herodotus is the Trochilus - crocodile bird. It is a bird that supposedly picks the food between the teeth of the Nile crocodile whenever it basks on land. It is most commonly classified in modern times as the Egyptian plover. Yet despite being believed as factual by many, this supposed symbiotic relationship between bird and croc has zero *solid* documentation of it actually happening in the wild.

[@KS-PNW]

Really? I would have sworn that was a real thing but now that I think about it I can't remember where I heard that. Funny how cultural osmosis works.

[@paleoph6168]

​​​​@@KS-PNWYep. All depictions of the symbiosis are fictional, from illustrations of centuries past to modern day photo manipulation and CGI animation. If there's anything the research on the actual animal/s has to so say, it's that plovers or any other bird never pick between the teeth of the Nile crocodile.

[@reshabraina9669]

Great video i am from Kashmir first time hearing this story thanks for sharing ❤

[@_-KR-_]

I always wondered what antlions were in the terms of mythological origin and why the cryptid creature persists so.

[@joshsanders1860]

Extra MYTHIC-HISTORY!! *Sick guitar solo*

[@brockmckelvey7327]

"Ya know those big ants ya keep talking about? Yeah, those are people."

[@Toonrick12]

The plant sheep in The Histories is also a mytg on its own. The Vegetable Sheep of Tartary which as just a way to tell Europeans what Cotton is.

[@ecurewitz]

I thought the sheep wool on trees was a reference to cotton 1:46

[@daviddobarganes9115]

Best extra mythology vid

[@stevenb891]

Now i aint sayin she a gold digger, but shes definitely not an ant

[@Magmafrost13]

3:40 I mean... dolphins definitely _do_ sometimes save drowning people

[@ireneylk1061]

Then there's the fact that he used intrerpreters and in-betweens and whathaveyous to get the information so the broken telephone line was much longer than one might think. Herodotus is not as bad as people think. You just have to know how to read him: a) whenever he says anything like "I was told" bring at the very least a pound of salt with you. b) remember that he wasn't writing what we today call "history". He didn't intend to. So, while a curious person and one who did try to do at least some due diligence, he honestly didn't see why a fun story could not be included even if in all probability fictional. It's us that expect out of him what he didn't set out to do,

[@fireisawesome1466]

Sounds like a cool leprecon esc movie but with ants

[@Kaiyanwang82]

...and now I know why giant ants in BECMI D&D had a chance to drop a ton of gold.

[@marcyxx4198]

Can you do a series about Siddhartha Gautama?

[@Artista_Frustrado]

i mean that's how we got thinking the "Like a dozen" Realms from Norse Myth were actually a real set of Twelve, & not a figure of speech that means "a large quantity of Realms" also, let's be honest even in today's age we still get people thinking that Quoting what someone says is indistinguishable from being the source of said quote

[@sryup]

0:00 it’s Firey lol

[@adamrhoda8482]

I could totally see this being Heroditus overhearing two locals talking about ant gold, and then they spin a yarn to prank the tourist

[@fence03]

7:40 the “ant” just looks so pissed off that everyone keeps calling them ants!

[@armelior4610]

I'm disappointed the closing sentence didn't introduce a new sponsorship with a glasses manufacturer instead of the usual, it would have been perfect

[@williamboisdenghien2849]

Oh I am discovering way too late. I did write a funny essay on those beasts. (along with big schlong pygmees one of the other interesting inhabitants of India). This video forgets that Herodotus probably didn't go to India and even if he did he had to rely on at least one and probably multiple interpreters. You can understand how a misunderstanding or two can settle in your narrative that way.

[@justacheesyguy]

0:49 might as well call it... a mythstery

[@a50ftfall6]

Insects specifically termites may in the future help human find gold deposits. From Wikipedia A 2011 study by Australian scientists found that termites have been found to excrete trace deposits of gold. According to the CSIRO, the termites burrow beneath eroded subterranean material which typically masks human attempts to find gold, and ingest and bring the new deposits to the surface. They believe that studying termite nests may lead to less invasive methods of finding gold deposits.

[@gamingwithlacks]

Now i want my favorite GoldTubers to do an "anthill episode" where they try to find gold by taking the soil from around anthills.

[@richardb4665]

You gotta do St. Christopher, the Cynocephalos.

[@ajerjavec4723]

There are some who believe Herodotus just mixed up the word ant for marmot in Persian because he claims for not seeing them but heard about them

[@danielgordon2907]

Another one I love is the references to Dog headed men, which exists across multiple cultures and time frames

[@qconinp9124]

Some said that the tale of "ant-gold" can trace back to Indian's tale of "pipilika" (gold digging by ants) in Mahabharata.

[@vinasol1161]

What about that land bridge from India to Sri Lanka there is a great myth about that and a supa amount of evendince for it to

[@krismagnus341]

1:50 India did cultivate cotton (almost wool, almost on trees), and I don't know about cammels, but some dogs do mate like that. So those ants aren't in the most implausible company

[@philtkaswahl2124]

There's gold-looking ore that can be scooped up in the Red Alert games. There are giant ants in Red Alert games. Hm.....

[@mathieuleader8601]

If I ever got to remake Antz I would base it around a gold rush

[@knotzed]

3:35 maybe he's talking about pyramid technology

[@casualsleepingdragon8501]

*wheeze* imma make a homebrew D&D monster based on this

[@privateeyety5735]

I like to imagine that calling the miners ants is a big inside joke in India and that the Greek historians agreed it was funny and continued the tradition

[@AfaqueAhmed_]

Most probably Herodotus wrote about something and slightly exaggerated it and then others read that and massively exaggerated it .

[@justin2308]

“Want a foolproof way of getting rich quick? It’s called stealing!” I don’t know what I expected, but it wasn’t this.

[@user-so4tx7zs5r]

This really gives me a mi-go vibe, is it possible for mi-go actually originating from this myth-or-history-or-both?

[@jacobfisher4050]

Would Love a video on Atilla the Hun

[@mewsingsbynatk]

“Do you want giant gold-digging ants? Because that’s how you get giant gold-digging ants!”

[@charge77]

So much for that race of mountain-dwelling ants as the main rivals of my dwarf kingdom being an original idea.

[@Itcouldbebunnies]

Now I need a video on Lucian of Samasota's 'True History' as a companion piece to this one.😂

[@shinybugg9156]

I think I've found my next D&D homebrew.

[@abcdef27669]

9:09 - There is a skeleton behind you, Matt, I guess he wants to eat, too.

[@adamwaliullah2798]

I’m surprised he mentioned food delivery without going to some else’s house and eating theirs

[@patricklee8088]

Could be Herodotus knew they were indeed people but was making commentary on their status. Consider the Myrmidons, the tribe of Greeks who followed Achilles in the Trojan War. According to myth, they were originally ants that Zeus transformed into humans who were loyal and industrious. Could be Herodotus simply called them ants thinking that was a good, basic description of the people he saw. Similarly, when Herodotus was naming the rotund mammals that live in the Nile "river horses," he was trying to describe a creature not seen before by Greeks and presumably had no name in his language. So I think Herodotus, while perhaps not the best in descriptive writer, was doing his best with accuracy with both limited knowledge of the world and vocabulary.

[@TalasDD]

the thing is. Cyclops are real as cyclopia is a real medical gene defect. Highpitched shouts and wisles for distance communication where popular both in Africa and Europe. (you can even still find communities in the Basque region who use wisling). And Dophins are know to save humans in need. So while Herodotus misunderstood a lot he wasn't really wrong on those accounts.

[@Valerian_Bagelknight]

Now I want a colony of giant ant friends, and smoothies

[@dhruvsingh7215]

sheep wool that grows on trees - cotton ( not known to greek at that point )

[@567secret]

I'm pretty sure a myth with some possible historical interpretation is a legend.

[@bernadmanny]

Modern mining companies actually test termite mounds for minerals, so there is a some truth to this myth.

[@angstysoftbean]

well if you think about it, it's no wonder we here in greece, when learning about Herodotus, our schoolbooks mention him as ''the father of historiography'', which is a lot different than actual history ^^;; We do honor him as the first person to lay down the actual art of it, but no one teaches that Herodotus is an actual ''historian'' anymore XD

[@jdzencelowcz]

More likely, large ants, not dog size, but still big for ants, half or quarter inch, made their homes in dirt that happened to B gold rich, so the mounds had the gold dust in noticeable amounts.

[@Double_D__]

The fascinating thing about this is that... well, Ants are actually fascinating creatures. They're numerous enough to wage war with each other and they make up an absurd number of the earth's biomass.

[@loading1317]

So factor is an MRE service

[@mummydholak]

I'm from Kashmir and I had never heard about it. Thank you, Extra History

[@CollinMcLean]

If I had a time machine and go back in time and give the people of the ancient world eye glasses.

[@postapocalypticnewsradio]

PANR has tuned in.

[@ArchOfWinter]

This isn't all too unusual. Many modern day names for things are local names misunderstood by colonial powers that and incorrectly label entire groups of people, cultural items and practice, to an entire region of land.

[@89anvitshankar]

Sheep wool growing on trees is may not be a myth or legend. There is a tree Semal scientific name Bombax Ceiba which produced capsules that contain wool like fiber. It is used to weave cloths and as filling in pillows.

[@jackielinde7568]

All praise Gooey Swamp Demon Eric and his Marshmallow eyes.