Inside a Glasgow Subway RFID train ticket

[@andyhamilton]

I carry out development work on machines which make 80% of the tag inlays. The “flux” is actually Anisotropic conductive paste. It is an adhesive with a filler material, normally nickel. When it’s compressed the nickel breaks any oxide layers on the aluminium and conducts only in the Z axis. This process is known as a Thermode cure. This means there is no chance of electrical shorts between conductive pads. The extra is just what has been squished out and is effectively non conductive.

[@bigclivedotcom]

I did wonder if it was some form of conductive adhesive.

[@Black3ternity]

It's fascinating but a tiny bit sad to see so much "waste" for something that could just be a paper ticket with a barcode or QR-Code on it. But then the IT takes over and we now have contactless Appcontrolled stuff. Saves even the paper.

[@liucyrus22]

QR codes probably has less failover capability than an RFID tag. RFID tags can be voided offline after completing the journey while a QR code cannot be. Some transit systems have machines that takes back the reuse-able ticket after the journey.

[@6581punk]

They want to use them instead of barcodes for food but the cost is too high. Guess who is paying for the increased cost for transportation? you are!

[@hyperion8008]

Scotland has a bottomless pot of money courtesy of England to spend, so it doesn't matter how much it cost.

[@TheErador]

@@hyperion8008 cite your sources

[@A_Casual_NPC]

In the Netherlands you can easily buy train tickets on your phone, you'll get a qr code to scan. Even less waste

[@stefanolassandro886]

Years ago, when these tickets were implemented into the subway system of my city, I was wondering how they worked. But I was attending middle School, and I didn't have the resources to find out. Thus, I did exactly what you did (and I even tried resetting it, but with no avail). Now, several years later, I finally found out how they work (sort of). Thank you so much!

[@uzlonewolf]

Usually those systems do write data to the cards when you purchase or use them. This is so it remains operational even if the network connection goes down. The chips are usually something from the MiFare family, and if so, you can read the type and serial number with an Android phone. Reading and writing the actual data will require the encryption key though.

[@ChrisP978]

There are also 900 MHz versions (EPC Class 1) which are overkill for short range communication but sometimes is used simply because there the equipment is less common and harder to snoop. That's what we use but we are reading at 50 feet and 100 mph. The disposable tags are

[@johndododoe1411]

@@cavemancamping Even with fully replicated local databases, without writable storage in the ticket, there's the impossible challenge of communicating the "used" status of a ticket to all the other readers when the network between readers is down. Once the storage is moved into the ticket, no network other than the passengers themselves is needed.

[@janst7526]

Some Mifare technology has been hacked.

[@johndododoe1411]

@@cavemancamping Replication doesn't work with the network gone. Our local ticket readers only connect to the main network once per day, to replicate online top up payments to the cards and replicate travel history to the web interface. That's way less than 90% network uptime, and it still exceeds 90% effective uptime for the paying customers, thus gaining that first 9 out of the desired quality of service. As a bonus, the SLA policy is to not collect payment when they can't check anyway, thus getting more effective 9s.

[@AtteFi]

The ones used here in Helsinki only require a key for writing, so you can use an Android app to see the ticket status, and for the plastic reusable ones the balance and trip history and whatnot.

[@mduvigneaud]

In San Diego the busses, commuter rail and trolley all have a common ticket system. There are options for either just one way trip, day pass or monthly passes. The monthly ones use a plastic RFID card but the other ones are paper and I think have the RFID inside them. I really enjoyed taking rail to/from work.

[@6581punk]

London has the Oyster card.

[@pear7777]

See?! They Can Make public transport enjoyable! When I'm in any larger city I always enjoy it too

[@mscir]

I wonder if they're encrypted and how the code or compress the data to use the fewest bits possible.

[@mscir]

@Thomas Yeats Thugs, very badly smelling homeless people, ranting insane people, the cleanliness of the car, there are many external factors that make it harder or easier to enjoy. The Metro bus system where I live has homeless people that will ride all day unless they are forced off, there are people whose clothes smell so strongly of urine it is impossible to be within 10' of them, there are crazy people who carry on a loud, ranting, whispered conversation with themselves non-stop, there are people who will take your backpack if your attention lapses for 15 seconds... etc.

[@cowjuicy]

The Scottish government were able to issue cards such as that while hosting the COP26 event, yet somehow can't do it as a standard.

[@rpdom]

My local library uses RFID stickers to keep track of the books. A number gets written to the sticker to identify the book and a flag is set to say if the book is on loan or not. If not it sets off an alarm if you try to take it out of the building.

[@rolfs2165]

Most libraries do that these days. It also makes self-checkout a whole lot easier. The old theft-protection system (at least the one I know) was a thin metallic strip glued into the book, which would get magnetized/demagnetized with an electromagnet. If your library had it, there was a grey box on the counter that they'd slide the books along after reading the barcode. It wasn't bad, but you could obviously defeat it easily if you wanted to, and it was just a bit too complicated to use for self-checkout. RFID is much easier, because you just need to put your stack of books down onto the reader and you're done. It also allows you to do inventory really easily, just grab a handheld reader and swipe it along the shelf.

[@cultusgti]

@@rolfs2165 won't be long now untill librarians will be obsolete... Then liabarys soon after

[@rolfs2165]

@@cultusgti Nah, the job description changes, but librarians are still needed. And most librarians are all for stuff like self-checkout, because it gives us time for the important work. Like helping people find the information they're looking for. Also, there's all kinds of different jobs in libraries. You have "unskilled" people who're mostly the ones moving books around and putting them back on shelves, people who went to trade school, people who went to uni … and not all of them learned library sciences, either.

[@TerryLawrence001]

@@cultusgti The "Stacks" at one of our Main Libraries at University of British Columbia is fully automated with robotic shelving. There are a few windows where you can watch the little cars buzzing up and down back and forth pulling and putting books. The staff are there to assist students with searches.

[@4n1eu]

also when i went skiing the use disposible smartcards with an iCode Slix2 chip. The readers only read the UID as it can't be changed, meaning it is kinda secure (you can't just set a byte to enter for free. There are also cards where you can change the uid but there are new and expensive).

[@MMuraseofSandvich]

When I was staying in Japan for 3 months (job training), I got a Japan Rail Suica RFID card that can be used on all JR and most connected railways, buses, and even shops that are equipped with the RFID reader. It felt like one of those aluminum credit cards, it had some heft to it, but obviously the antenna wasn't surrounded by metal. Super convenient for grabbing a bite at an AM/PM or 7-11, then taking the local subway to my aunt's house. Also super easy to reload, tap the right bits on the ticket kiosk, shove the card in, shove in some cash, beep boop done. I wouldn't dare live in the Tokyo metro area because of the insane costs, but that was a pretty cool aspect. I've misplaced it in the years since, which is a bit of a shame.

[@greenaum]

"Suica"? I hope that's just the Japanese trying to abbreviate "swipe card" and not something bad. I wouldn't put it past them to have kamikaze bus drivers. 1 minute late and the bus gets "diverted" off the edge of a nearby cliff.

[@mycosys]

@@greenaum did that casual racism seem funny when you wrote it?

[@greenaum]

@@mycosys Well obviously.

[@fireaza]

They actually added the ability to upload your Suica card to an Apple device, giving you the ability to use your iPhone or Apple Watch just how you can use the card. But with the bonus ability to recharge the card using a credit card in your Wallet, no need for a recharge machine and most importantly, no need for paper cash!

[@ovaerd]

I still have mine, somewhere... Fuck.

[@zh84]

4:45 The slope leading up to the station and down away from it is not just a feature of cable-hauled railways. The London Underground has exactly the same thing, for the same reason: it automatically slows the train down as it reaches the platform and speeds it up again as it leaves.

[@izzieb]

Yes, they're called "hump-back stations". It helps improve energy efficiency these days and as such most new lines are designed with it in mind.

[@andrewrussack8647]

Make gravity your friend!

[@michaelkhoo5846]

@@andrewrussack8647 Airports can do this too! - for instance to compensate for higher altitude, drier climate, short runways, etc. Land uphill, take off downhill.

[@epender]

It's like regenerative braking, 1800s style. Using the slope like a capacitor.

[@johnmurrell3175]

@@izzieb It also helps having the platforms nearer the surface - shorter escalators. It was abandoned for the Victoria Line & subsequent lines due to the extra construction costs. Most of the benefits are now achieved with regenerative braking but needs most of the wheels to have motors to recover most of the energy.

[@MonEyRuLess]

We have contactless paper tickets in Vienna as well! The consist of a piece of paper with some text on it. You then use your contactless-scanner (eye) to read the information off it.

[@michaelmoorrees3585]

I worked on an early RFID project, back in the mid 1980s. The technology was too expensive, back then, for disposable applications. The device we were designing, was to be embedded in the employee ID badges, and reading electronics housed in the cash registers. That way the employee had instant cash register access, and locked out any access, when a valid badge was not present. Like modern RFID, the badges got their power from the RF energy emitted from the cash register.

[@ItsMrAssholeToYou]

I remember early RFID security tags at nicer department stores. They were large, chunky (roughly 1"x1"x4") affairs that had to be removed at the register with a special device mounted to the counter. One could force them off, of course, but that would break an ink pellet inside, marking the pilferer and permanently marring the item being stolen.

[@twobob]

@@ItsMrAssholeToYou I have one Here. I should send it Clive to rip apart. Want it Clive?

[@twobob]

In my defense I traded with who would pick up the old gear they couldn't sell in the Dpt. Stores and he would sell it on the markets... No I wasn't a shoplifter, they are far too heavy

[@weeardguy]

@@ItsMrAssholeToYou It could be those were active tags, containing a power source inside. RFID-stuff could already be made quite small back then, but readout-distance was a problem with passive tags. The company I worked for till february this year used passive tags operating at something like 125 kHz. The chips had the antenna built in, which (when X-rayed) showed a clear ferrite core with windings on it. This also made the readout-distance small: only half a centimeter or so. But when put into a plastic wedge-like key, one could place it into a holder and pay for... well, whatever one wanted. The company I worked for got big with that system as it proved to be a very good solution to avoid the hassle with coins in showers at camping sites and such. Just put the key in the holder and you would get warm water, with the display showing every deduction clearly, and returning to the remaining balance afterwards. It was abandoned when the technology became small enough to be put in credit-card size tags, but remaining customers can still get supplied by the remaining stock of keys.

[@flp322]

They have that at my local bank office, but with chip cards, not RFID. All their computer keyboards have card readers, and I assume the computer locks out when there isn't a card present, though I have no way to verify that.

[@soberhippie]

The ticket even says "We've gone smart" on its front, so as not to surprise you. Thank you for your videos!

[@TeriWilde]

5:13 "it goes like a 2 bob rocket"... that saying brought back really good memories of my grandad when he was telling us how quick his new motorcycle was... which was a Honda 90.... lol

[@Thebigmanmetaldetecting]

I used to be a bouncer in the centre of Glasgow and I would get on the underground, put earplugs in and travel round for hours because it was warm and cheaper than going back home before I had to start my other job

[@lpconserv6074]

Some of the most mundane appearing items you find, and take to bits are SO very interesting once the covers are pulled back!! Who would have thought a paper ticket, seemingly as plain as used cardboard, would hold such interesting things. Thanks for your constant curiosity and search for things one never really thinks about!! OUTSTANDING!!

[@amorphuc]

Thanks Big Clive. I wish transportation like you have was something universal.

[@CutoutClips]

Me too. I've always wanted to take a train to the Andromeda galaxy

[@greenaum]

@@CutoutClips Most towns in Britain, it'd be nice to have a bus home after 8:30 at night, never mind bleedin' Andromeda.

[@oikos_9000]

I used to live near Bridge St station. I absolutely love the Glasgow public transit system, I barely drove my car at all when I lived there.

[@marktickner7160]

The Netherlands also use similar disposable cards for their mainline railway.

[@bastiaan85]

Yeah. And when you check-in or check-out it writes the station code and a timestamp as a "transaction" on the chip.

[@High.on.Life_DnB]

Plastic ones even, personalized and anonymous, both expire within a few years, and than there's these paper tickets with RFID in them you can get at the train station or in the bus.

[@High.on.Life_DnB]

But thankfully for those who dislike waste you can also use an app on your phone.

[@KKomradePeek]

@@High.on.Life_DnB A couple transport companies in The Netherlands use those RFID cards in their busses. (GVB, HTM, RET) Others have barcode readers in their validators and use QR codes Arriva Lelystad allows commuters to check in with their debit, credit or Apple Pay which is pretty neat

[@weeardguy]

@@KKomradePeek Don't forget EBS: their daytickets and possibly single-journey tickets as well, are also disposable RFID cards. For the record: as far as I know every bus and train can be boarded by QR code, even if the validators on the vehicle are not equipped with QR-scanners: that was the whole goal of the QR-code thingy, by enabling travel with just 1 code for the whole journey (which basically also tells you how effed up the current system has become) It also does not require tapping out on vehicles as far as I know.

[@BariumCobaltNitrog3n]

The cable cars in San Francisco still use that giant loop of cable and grab onto it to climb up and go forward. They do roll downhill sometimes for a short bit, but the brakeman starts to sweat if the conductor is ringing the bell too long instead of grabbing the cable. No motors, no electricity on these cars. The trolleys have the sparky bits.

[@tei1337]

I remember from my visit that they occasionally can lose the cable as well. On an occasion I rode it, they apparently lost the cable, and it ran too deep for them to pick it back up. We had to wait for some kind of pusher truck to move the car to a place where they were able to grab the cable again.

[@greenaum]

@@tei1337 Must've slipped from it's carrier or something. I do wonder why systems like those don't have 2 cables in the run, one as backup, cos presumably each "line" is just one huge loop of steel rope. If it snaps, that's the whole system buggered. I wonder too, how do they attach the ends into a loop? Some sort of big clamp, or do they actually weave the strands into a continuous loop... somehow? Cos surely a big clamp would have trouble going round and round the system. With a city like San Francisco, with the hills made famous by a thousand police car chases, you'd certainly want a manual brake as a backup! I wonder how much it costs to run over all? And does it make it's money mostly from tourists or actual practical users? I also wonder if New York sets up fruit stands with heaps of cardboard boxes next to them, for city-approved fake cop cars to smash through, also for tourism?

[@BariumCobaltNitrog3n]

@@tei1337 Yes! The cable has some slack in it and there are spots, as you know, where it falls down too far to grab. I think some downhill sections too, where it's not needed.

[@mfbfreak]

@@BariumCobaltNitrog3n I'm not a cable car driver, but afaik the cable is always needed downhill as a form of braking. The cable will guarantee that the cable car will never go down a hill faster than it went up, as long as the cable is gripped. The brakes are mostly for stopping for a passenger, not for controlling downhill speed.

[@BariumCobaltNitrog3n]

@@mfbfreak You are correct!

[@AncientPurpleDragon]

I guess putting their brand name inside millions of tickets finally paid off...

[@HaggisMuncher-69-420]

One thing you failed to mention about the subway is how incredibly loud it is compared to any other underground transit systems.

[@weeardguy]

Trust me, go to Lviv, Kyiv or Kharkiv in Ukraine when the war is over and step into one of the metros there. It's a feast for your ears that will experience every sound from the tunnel as the roof is just 'open': Only some ventilation slots along the length of the carriages are between the tunnel's interior and your ears. I didn't know what hit me when I first stepped on the metro in Kyiv and how people there manage to keep a conversation going while driving is beyond me. The sound is deafening but even so, I got to love the screaming sound they make. And to be honest, the Amsterdam metro, when the old trains were still in use, was particularly loud as well...

[@Mark_B544]

Always and interesting video Clive, thanks

[@mcdon2401]

Decathlon use a similar arrangement for their checkouts, all their stock labels have rfid built into them. I'd guess those tickets are more reliable than the train tickets that use magnetic stripes. We quite often have encoding issues with them, ending up with loads of tickets that are rejected by the barriers for no good reason.

[@straightpipediesel]

Magnetic ticket readers for gates are expensive and a maintenance nightmare. They have a complex transport with belts and solenoids to switch the ticket between reject, accept, and discard outputs, and even printers in some places. And then somebody sticks a torn or soggy ticket in, it jams, and trained staff has to come open the thing and dig it out. It's much simpler and cheaper to have a RFID reader with no moving parts.

[@michealpersicko9531]

@@straightpipediesel where I live the card system for my underground has always been a swipe mechanism similar to using a credit card and when you would buy a single use card it was always a thin piece of really flexible plastic to make sure there were less kickbacks when someone swiped their card and i've always thought it was the norm until now. Well you learn something new everyday!

[@sarahgguwu]

Toronto's transit network also uses a similar system for disposable tickets when they switched over from the old token and paper tickets to a smart card.

[@nickloh912]

I remember seeing labels on boxed software (which shows how long ago this was…) that had a similar-looking coil on the adhesive side for anti-theft purposes. They were usually square with a corner “cut off”, and terminated in a pad of metal in the center. As an extremely bored child I’d sometimes try to peel away the “wire” and see if I could get to the pad in the center without breaking the metal. I wonder if those had a chip in them as well?

[@bigclivedotcom]

I think those were just an LC tuned circuit. Coil and capacitor.

[@theelmonk]

@@bigclivedotcom And a diode sometimes : this causes it to re-radiate a harmonic of the excitation frequency, and the diode can be blown by the reader which deactivates the tag.

[@joeschmo622]

@@bigclivedotcom Yeah, the old style was a sort of grid-dip sensor (see if anything sucked down energy at the radiated frequency), and semi-newer would have a diode that'd "square" the signal so you'd pick up a 2f reradiated signal when excited by f. One little razor-slit to cut the loop antenna rendered either one useless. 🤡🤡🤡

[@justanotherviewer4821]

Very much when PC World had its heyday. Literally everything had one of those stickers with the coil and once you bought something you rarely could take off bloody label. Even the most budget PC games for a few quid, had one. This was all despite a store full of cameras, a guy at a security desk monitoring cameras and controlling the front swing gates... and the inability to leave the store without queuing up at the checkouts (or jumping over the closed gate at each checkout).

[@StevieCooper]

I’ve seen those stuck onto store belongings too. Like the handheld scanners staff use but also strangely, staplers and packing tape dispensers. I guess if you have a lot of them, may as well stick them on everything. I’d love to have a roll of them and just mess with people leaving them adhesive side up on the floor 🙃

[@mkelly0x20]

Found a similar setup in a wrist band I got recently at a water park/resort. Between the plastic of the wrist band itself and that thin plastic the antenna is on/in, it seems to hold up well against water.

[@ragnoxten4158]

First I was disappointed that you released a "short". Then I noticed you've released a proper video. Thanks for that.

[@jkobain]

I've seen some videos by Geoff Marshall about the underground transportation system in the UK (mostly because of Matt Parker).

[@EdgyShooter]

Clive you are indeed correct, with a Subway card it's £3 a day cap for unlimited travel. So a single journey would be £1.55 but as soon as you used it again, it would max out at £3 no matter how many times you rode it. (Also you can buy weekly/monthly/yearly tickets)

[@gwesco]

Cable driven subway, shades of the San Francisco cable cars which still use that ancient technology. I rode one around 1978 and they are a big tourist attraction.

[@mwiz100]

They are still going to this day! You can also visit the “powerhouse” which is also a museum and see the main motors that haul the cables.

[@bbrockert]

The excessively expensive above ground BART connection to Oakland Airport is also cable driven. It's really annoying to stay at a hotel next to it because of the sheave noise at night. There's about a dozen modern "cable liner" systems by the same company, mostly around airports, so it's very much not a dead tech.

[@JLCPCB]

Very cool and interesting video! 😄

[@masteryoda394]

They use the same ones in Morocco where I am from. However here in Germany where I live it is a paper ticket that you need to time stamp it with a machine before boarding the train.

[@BertNielson]

There's an underground tram that shuttles back and forth at the Cincinnati airport. Interestingly, it isn't electrified, but pulled back and forth using a steel cable. I was surprised that they did that instead of internal electric motors on the cars, but I guess it's much easier to maintain.

[@dieseldragon6756]

There are quite a few systems like that in place across the world. In some cases - Like the Les Arcs funicular (Rhône Alps) - Cable haulage is used as on-vehicle motors powerful enough to deliver the required traction would be too large and heavy to be efficient. Other cases - Like the Birmingham airport SkyTrain - Aren’t as clear cut, but in all cases a cable/funicular system means the motors will be static and the vehicles can be very light, so in places where weight is a concern fixed-traction haulage is clearly the way to go! 🚠✅👍🏽

[@jonathanbott87]

Another crazy transportation "method" is diesel/electric like Boston's Silver line to Logan - it's a diesel road bus at the airport, and then switches to a guided electric vehicle using an overhead wire to go under Boston.

[@gregsinsightstudio]

They use RFID chips on the paper and refillable cups at DIsney in FL. The soda machines read the chip and allow a paper cup to only be refilled 3 times and you have a waiting period in between each refill. The refillable cups are added to the system during purchase and have an end date and refill wait time between refills.

[@TATICMOOR]

The number of times I have travelled on the London Underground and other trains I never thought of RDIFs inside of a paper ticket. I could not believe how small that Micro-Mirco Chip was on the surface, a pin head looks bigger. Unbelievable how small technology has come over the years from my old 80s Amstrad CPC464 and CPC6128 computers.

[@JUANKERR2000]

5:15 "Like a two-bob rocket" I have never heard that one before. Thanks, Clive, it goes with 'thrupenny banger' from my youth.

[@JUANKERR2000]

@Matt Quinn So was 3d for a banger, 2d bought quite an earth shaker.

[@ImAnAutie]

The date and ITSO symbol tells me it's going to be a desfire type chip not mifare classic (ITSO moved the standard over from classic to desfire some point round 2010 if I recall correctly)

[@Smegheid]

Did Govan to Hillhead daily back in my Uni days, and then moved awayfor work. Managed to get home for a bit the summer before the pandemic, and the “new” tickets weirded me out for a bit - walking up to the turnstiles and shoving the card into the slot was muscle memory honedover the space of years, and it was quite odd not only having to just beep the ticket against the pad, but also having to do the same to get out. Didn’t used to have to do that either. I suppose the driverless trains will be running by the time I next get to go back…

[@StefanMX]

Here in Athens we have the same, exactly, the C-HA 0049 V9 version. They are rechargeable! You can place them in the ticket vending machine, see the previous expired ticket and then it is possible to load any ticket amount you want, one ticket exactly. I do recharge if possible, although even then a small receipt is printed.

[@walterwings2222]

I used to work in warehouse logistics and part of the process was to produce shipping labels using Intermec printers. These had the capability to write to an RFID chip in the label.

[@experimentalcyborg]

"The underground just has a good feel to it" i mean you do seem to be a bigger version of a tolkien dwarf so it makes a lot of sense.

[@RonDLite]

You can recycle them as RFID tags, android apps to identify and act accordingly like tasker can do this..very handy. I collect and use them all the time (NL)

[@hinspect]

The anti theft tags on new clothes and other items have a coil circuit in them too

[@bigclivedotcom]

Most are just a simple resonant circuit.

[@309electronics5]

Yep i teard some down and they had a capacitor and coil to generate a resonator

[@hockeyguy820]

Top level poker tournaments have used RFID playing cards for years. These cards have antenna and chip embedded, similar to the ticket Clive showed. There is an RFID reader at each player's table position so that the (slightly delayed) video coverage of the event can show all the hole cards. RFID is replacing the older "hole cameras" that were used to optically scan the cards. The player had to remember to show their hole camera both cards, or place both cards on a clear glass portion of the table where they could be recorded from underneath.

[@neilbain8736]

It was great to see this as this is something I've been wondering and have always wanted to know. I even have an old day ticket in my pocket but have never got around to dissecting it. I love the Glasgow Underground. It's like a toy trainset for real people who just so happen to be Glaswegian which makes for a unique world class ride experience. We knew it as the Underground which is what it was called when we were growing. It started life as the Subway (Glasgow and District Subway) but is back to that now. All the stations were island platforms so only half the trains were painted in corporate logo with the half to the wall being plain red. There were no approach ramps to the tracks (at Broomloan Depot). Access was by a pit with a crane and cars were regularly lifted from one track circle and turned 180 degrees and put on the other circle to even up wheel wear. I don't like the map. I think the best was the one from the 60's around the Beeching era, but that's personal.

[@jkobain]

It feels like they spot-welded the bridging strip onto the coil turns, but I can't imagine how short and gentle the might have been to avoid damaging the foil.

[@jason.doller]

Have you read it in a reader yet? Do you know what frequencies it runs of? Is it standard RFID? I live in South Africa, and the closest we have to a real underground system is when the potholes get too wide and too deep. I guess we also have the Gautrain, but the potholes are by fare more prolific.

[@deehigh3359]

Would rather expect a Mifare classic RFID derivate operating at 13.56MHz. It's ID could be easily determined by a NFC reader SW from NXP with an Android phone.

[@itsevilbert]

Check wikipedia for "RFID" and find "Hz", there are many. Historically 125kHz was a frequency used for close proximity "10 cm (4 in)" inductively powered cards, but these days it could frequency.

[@laurensweyn]

Man, South African rail transport... Always fun to see a tourist's first reaction to a passenger train passing by with all the people hanging off the side of the train, standing on the coupling or maintenence steps/ladders. Never quite seemed like a comfortable journey xD

[@4n1eu]

@@deehigh3359 in the Netherlands I got a ticket with a Mifare Ultralight EV1 (also 13.56MHz aka NFC)

[@weeardguy]

@@deehigh3359 I googled the manufacturer and this Glasgow ticket operates under the ISO14443 standard and thus 13,56 MHz. There's no such thing as 'standard RFID', that covers grounds from anything from 125 kHz to well into the hundreds of Megahertz or even higher.

[@olsmokey]

In Melbourne Australia we have something called 'MYKI' which is basically a pre-paid non-disposable credit card for public transport. You buy a card at the start of your public transport using life and use it everywhere, trains, busses etc. You effectively use it to pay for the trip from start to finish no matter what mode of travel you use or where you travel to or from. When you run low on 'credit' you charge it up again with $$$ online or selected retailers elsewhere and keep going. That card is yours forever, don't ever lose it or you're walking home.

[@tjsynkral]

They use these tickets in Chicago too. It seems wasteful to me but now it's pretty unnecessary. When the system rolled out, it was rare for normal credit cards to be contactless, but nowadays it's common so you can just boop your credit card to pay your fare.

[@otm646]

Except that the transit provider would have to incur the credit card processing fee every single time you ride. They aren't allowed to use your credit card to reference another 3rd party prepaid account.

[@fetchstixRHD]

@@otm646: That may still be cheaper overall than cash/ticket machine handling, I believe that was mentioned in London as one of the reasons buses/trams went cashless (and a general push towards contactless over Oyster).

[@gbraadnl]

They use the same/similar system here in Beijing; paper tickets with RFID and a plastic card for the large amounts.

[@djfernando16]

I wonder if the antenna can be repurposed for other projects. That would be interesting

[@Will-sc3hw]

The subway is amazing. I remember growing up and being on the shaky ones (earlier electric). Just sucks that they never decided to add more lines. 2 circles is no longer enough.

[@greenaum]

A third circle? Would be very difficult while the first two are still in use I think. Can't they just stick more trains onto the existing lines? Or bigger trains?

[@Will-sc3hw]

@@greenaum not a third circle but instead linear lines. The London underground has many lines as an example The issue is Glasgow has many areas not covered by the subway. Bus services are shit and always late.

[@greenaum]

@@Will-sc3hw Ah right. Still, tunnelling costs ££££, BIG money. Does Glasgow have it? And are there enough passengers to support the extra lines? Then again do they need to be subways? Could you not run trams like Manchester? You don't need to tunnel if the place you're going to has cheap land you can put rails on. Often there's stuff like compulsory purchase here and there and that takes a while. It's a massive lot of faff. What's up with the busses? Could they not just improve them? Buy better busses and get some proper management on the staff, so if they're surly bastards who are always late, they get disciplined? Actually bus drivers are sarcastic cunts everywhere. Not all the drivers, but everywhere you go, there's at least a few of them driving busses.

[@tinplategeektoo]

"Goes off like a 2 bob rocket" now adjusted for inflation as a 10 quid rocket. 😃

[@deelkar]

According to wikipedia they are in the middle of modernising it with automated trains planned for the near future

[@bigclivedotcom]

The current trains can run without a driver, but they don't use the feature for safety. It would require the barriers with doors at the platforms.

[@srowley85]

The New York and Boston subways both also have a single fare system, where one price gets you anywhere they go. Both use magnetic stripes on cards, but NYC is also implementing a phone tap system, which I haven’t tried yet.

[@Peter_A1466]

Amsterdam public transportation tickets use the same coil inside. I found it surprisingly rugged. I assume you can order them with a wide variety of options and possibilities.

[@weeardguy]

That's not surprising, considering both systems adhere to the ISO14443 standard (13,56 MHz). You'll find the same setup in every disposable OVC ticket, whether NS, GVB, RET or whatever-operator based.

[@Grid56]

A lot of underground railways use humped stations to aid braking and acceleration. I could understand a smart reuseable card having this in but a bit wasteful for disposable ones. The last time i spent the day on the clockwork orange, they were still the Aptis type with magnetic strip.

[@steveday4797]

When the notification of a new video from you popped up on my tablet all I could see was "inside a Glasgow subway" I thought hello, Clive is going to give us his thoughts on decor, ambiance and the quality of a meatball sub in a particularly nice Subway in Glasgow 😃

[@rdflo6739]

Brilliant in efficiency, well engineered all round. Same goes for most of the London underground. I live in the Netherlands where the underground is non existent and the bits that are there are nigh useless. With the density of living having an underground world be fabulous...

[@weeardguy]

True (and finally someone who thinks the same about The Netherlands). After visiting Kyiv, I consider our metro's as silly little systems where a few people are playing how to run a metrosystem. Compared to Kyiv, ours just pale in comparison. Not only frequency-wise, but also how clear the system works (the fact there's a uniform price no matter the distance you travel helps as well)

[@jca111]

When I was 22 I knew a student in glasgow. We found a pub at every stop and did the complete loop. Some stops were quite a trek to a pub!

[@bigclivedotcom]

I found a reference to the subway pub crawl while making this video.

[@nigellovatt9982]

"goes off like a 2 Bob rocket". I've never heard that before. I love it.

[@DrBovdin]

Fun fact: The Copenhagen driverless metro, built in the late 1990s onward, with the first section opened around 2000 or so, is also built using the slightly elevated stations technique. It is a good and extremely simple energy recovery system.

[@epender]

I love the Copenhagen Metro, especially the Ring Line which opened a few years ago, that one line is a lot more extensive than the entire Glasgow Subway 😅

[@DrBovdin]

@@epender and as far as I remember, the ring line in Copenhagen is also fully underground (someone will surely let me know if I am misremembering 😉).

[@epender]

@@DrBovdin Yep, the ring line and the Glasgow Subway are both fully underground circular lines. The Copenhagen Ring Line only has 2 more stations than the entire Glasgow Subway, but I've always felt the Copenhagen Metro stops in a lot more convenient places that most people would actually want to visit. Then again, the Metro line has the advantage of being 123 years newer 😅 The two systems could not be more different

[@MostlyInteresting]

The cable cars in San Francisco still use the grip system. The cables run under the streets in a slot. Considering how nasty some of the grades are there I wonder if they would ever switch it over to wheel traction doesn't make a lot of sense.

[@steeviebops]

I did the very same on Dublin Bus back in 2008. I used to get a 10-pack of magstripe tickets that were replaced with a single card. I tried to put it in the magstripe reader a couple of times (which let out really loud beeps when it failed to read something). The driver told me to use the contactless reader instead and, of course, it worked first go.

[@RadioJonophone]

I rode the shaky ones in the 70s. Somone told me that they lifted the cars at an access point to swap them from the clockwise track to the anti-clockwise track and vice versa to even out the wear on the wheels.

[@6yjjk]

I only just noticed, when you said that it goes under the river, that the map shows it going over!

[@curtw8827]

When first introduced on cruise ships years ago people started to punch a hole in their cabin ID card to wear on a lanyard, unknowingly they punched a hole in the perimeter antenna rendering it useless

[@justpaulo]

I believe that spiral track is mainly to power up the chip wirelessly... but maybe is doing double duty. I reckon that chip probably has some flash memory and some "brains" which is impressive. I say that b/c I used cards like that with pre-paid trips where I could hop off the subway and hop on a bus right away and see the number of trips going down correctly. I doubt that there is a system updating all buses in the city in almost real time with how many trips I have left and doing that not only for me but for tens of thousand of people.

[@Palmit_]

YES. The Antennae is for picking up power! Not for the broadcast. The chip does the ID and with it's power from the anntenae, it, the chip does the calculating and emitting of the details stored. The large antennae would be not very useful if it broadcast as well, as other readers in the vicinity would also be 'good to go', and all kinds of wave /data collisions. The chip itself does the broadcast of it's secrets.

[@davida1hiwaaynet]

Very cool! Thanks for the commentary on the train and the history lesson.

[@TonyNaggs]

The new Glasgow subway trains should be running for the public this year, apparently they have done some night time test rides since December. Geoff Marshall's KZbin channel had a look at the new trains at 2018 train technology exhibition kzbin.info/www/bejne/d3uyfpxqf52Dpas - video is titled "The New Glasgow Subway Trains", (probably YT doesn't allow clickable links in comments?)

[@davidfurniss6980]

Maybe three chip positions if populated allows for a single card to be used on different platforms with each chip responding to a specific modulation.

[@EoRdE6]

We use these on the MBTA in the USA, contactless paper tickets to replace our old mag stripe paper tickets, it surprised me too

[@TerryLawrence001]

For the longest time, the paper mifare cards issued by my University and used here on Translink in Vancouver were issued unlocked. With my phone, I could save an image of the card and then when I used it, i just had to restore it to it's original state. If I forgot to save a pristine image of each card, or accidentally double tapped it, it was permanently locked the next time I used it and it would expire after 90 minutes. I now live and work in the same complex so I rarely use transit, so I don't know if this still works.

[@jimthesoundman8641]

I've never ridden the Glasgow subway but the thing that impressed me the most about the London underground was the all wooden escalators. I had never seen anything but metal escalators and was completely gobsmacked.

[@agenericaccount3935]

You gotta look up Plainly Difficult Escalator Fire here on KZbin. The wooden escalators love cigarette butts.

[@imqqmi]

Seems like it's the same as the ski tickets in Germany. The Netherlands has plastic cards for public transport which can be charged up with more cash automatically using your bank account or manually.

[@Steve_Wardley_G6JEF]

When I got my new passport a couple of years ago it had a removable sticker on it with this same antenna and chip arrangement in it. I assumed it was so it can be tracked through their issuing system.

[@beefgoat80]

I love Europe/Britain and the trains. The last time my wife and I vacationed in Belgium, we were amazed by the fact that if we wanted to visit Amsterdam, or wherever, could just hop on a train and be there in a few hours or less. If only the USA was small enough to do that. We were looking into taking a train down to New Orleans. The trip is so long, we're saving for a fancy private cabin. It's actually not much quicker than driving. Having grown up in Texas, a four hour drive to another town was part and parcel of living there. Up here in the Midwest (which has a heck of a lot more trains than Texas), people here think a two hour drive is a road trip. I'm surprised Texas doesn't have more trains. Yes, I know the video is about a ticket from the local subway. I went on a tangent.🤣🤣🤣

[@sepruecom]

In the US, the train networks were private and got into financial trouble when cars (and buses) got popular, shutting down in most parts. In Europe they were nationalised early, and continued to run even when they were not financially viable any more. The free market does regulate a lot, just not always in the right direction...

[@umarahmed1252]

Can you hypothetically manipulate the hex data on the ticket to be used multiple times for example ?

[@tomalexander7211]

The subway is being modernised Clive. New trains made by Stadler. Glass walls on the platform with doors that line up with the trains. And when the trains and walls are both installed the plan is to go driverless and have the trains be automatic.

[@TheRobMozza]

I've noticed an RFID antenna under the rear sticker on a bottle of gin that I'm quite partial to, Aldi's Corley/Oliver Cromwell. I'm guessing that these RFID stickers are on most bottles (stock control) but interesting none the less.

[@Palmit_]

- they are mostly dormant. They rely on the magnetic "bottle stop" device. same as lidl. They aint equipped to demag the label. otherwise you'd see the staff suriously wiping the bottle left right and cent.. i put this comment a little lower below to another question.. but i thought it would be ok here also. as the cards themselves do not carry a power supply, the detectors (readers) induct power to the card. It's a magnetic field. Exactly the same as putting an LED in a very large coil of copper. The reading proximity (distance ) is limited to how powerful the readers can emit EMF. Of course..it has to be pretty low power, at a very specific frequency, or all of your other cards would start signalling at best, or at worst become corrupted... and those of everyone else in the range.

[@Equiluxe1]

I have just done the same to my old Barclaycard, well dissolved it in mek. That only has four turns plus a zig zag bit at one end where the wires join the chip underneath the gold contacts.

[@todayonthebench]

Single use ticket with RFID, sounds like a waste of resources. I don't suspect the Stockholm metro is much different in that department though. But here one can at least just use one's bank card instead.

[@peterwoolliams1283]

Got spooked by the same type of ticket in Holland a few years back… did the same to the ticket to see its innards (of course)!

[@erroltheterrible]

I've got a stack of these disposable rfid tickets from our trip to Italy. Trains and ferries love to use them...

[@altronixvideo]

Aww I luv the clockwork orange. I moved up from london in 99, during the first week here I asked my flatmate if they had a map for the tube, they just started laughing 'you won't need a map'.

[@teknophyle1]

When I was looking for writable RFID cards for a *cough*project. I stumbled across these NTAG 215 NFC Stickers. I also found it interesting RFID could be paper-thin. not sure the intended use, but I suppose you could make your own NFC inventory system (or amiibos ;) )

[@hc3d]

Never heard about rope based trains. But it makes a lot of sense in the early days, allowing to have the steam engines above ground, avoiding filling the tunnels with smoke. Jago Hazzard has some interesting videos on early subway systems in the UK.

[@eviltreechop]

The Montreal Metro also runs entirely underground (and with rubber tyres) - the original trains they put down there in 1965 lasted 53 years because they were never exposed to "the elements" (which are quite harsh in Quebec)

[@Slopey77]

Last time I rode the "Clockwork Orange", it was just the magnetic strip cards (when at Glasgow Uni in the 90s) - will bear the new system in mind if I ever jump on it again! Very interesting.

[@chrissmith7655]

Hi, 'A two bob rocket', love it laughed loads. Many thanks for all your videos, very informative and often amusing.

[@niallsommerville9941]

I remember the wobbly wooden carriages that were still in use until the early 70's, I recall being told they were the worlds oldest underground carriages still in service (unverified). It is a great fuss free system though and it still smells like it did in the 70's.

[@MrAdopado]

"shoogly" rather than wobbly if we are using the correct Scottish terminology! I haven't been on the newer system but was on the old one and I was also amazed at how tiny it was! Significantly smaller cars than the London underground.

[@DanielLiNeutrinos]

This brings back memories. I used to work at an events company providing rfid wristbands and other form factors one of which is a paper bracelet that can be printed on site and at the same time have data written on the rfid chip.

[@blitzkreg335]

I once took apart a credit card and was mindblown by the little circuit inside. I'd really love to know how banking cards work, with the contactless QR and stuff. It did have very thin strands of copper wire throughout the card but I didn't have anything near me to take it apart or to experiment further.

[@garethaethwy]

The Netherlands has a system of disposable tickets in their national transport ticketing scheme that are just like this: if you use one of the disposable tickets there's a €1 premium on top of the standard fare, which you get if you use a reusable card.

[@zachfoss4152]

I ripped one of these apart in Vancouver and wondered what was going on with that blob. thought it was a fair bit of waste for so much antenna just for convenience, but that's why I bought the hard plastic re-usable type. I'm now thinking those probably use the same blob rather than an RFID like I initially thought. nowadays they have credit card tap on the busses, so I'm not sure what technologies are at work there.

[@charliebrown1408]

Takes off like a two bob rocket 🚀 wit a belter 👌

[@treborrrrr]

I've gone from paper tickets, to RFID-cards to QR-code on the phone in the last few years. Currently I buy a commute ticket which covers the train ride between cities as well as the buses and subway in the two cities I travel between, all with one QR-code. Quite convenient, but expensive...

[@nezapamatovatelne]

Decathlon uses RFID tags on clothings, there is a fabric label with the chip in it on every item of clothing.

[@Gribbo9999]

The clockwork orange. The shuggle. I rode on it in 1970. Haven't been on it since.

[@woodmon122]

Reading through the comments... I think many of you are confusing RFID and NFC... Lol RFID are generally read only. To read a identifier off a tag. And it is capable of being read at long distances. NFC allows for two way communication. If you can modify the data on the chip, it is likely to be NFC... NFC cards need to be in close proximity to the reader.

[@matteo.ceriotti]

STP now stands for Scottish Partnership for Transport! They changed it a few years back!