3 vs. 4 Vanes: Which configuration is right for you?

[@kylepetty3413]

I’m an engineer. The parachute analogy describes this well. What you’re seeing is the further arrow travels the less energy it has unlike when it first leaves the bow. Not because the energy stops but because gravity and drag is working against the arrow as soon as it leaves the string. At some point during flight the the drag takes over and you get the death wobble. Same thing happens with bullets. You should be able to theoretically adjust the helix to give you maximum spin at certain distances but that would be determined by how fast the bow is shooting (acceleration) of the arrow. You can’t have constant velocity because the acceleration is plummeting per second of flight because of the drag and earths gravity.

[@AZHighlandHomestead]

I’d love to see a masters thesis chart on mass, velocity, momentum, degree of helical/drag coefficient at various distances.

[@asdfzxcvqwerasdf]

I'm not an engineer but can give a much better answer. 1. Drag decreases as speed decreases so why would something losing drag be taken over by drag? 2. Gravity isn't working against the arrow unless you're shooting up at any angle. Which majority of hunters are shooting down out of a treestand so gravity is actually working to accelerate the arrow if anything (of course the arrow will still decelerate due to drag). 3. You didn't give an explanation whatsoever. (Drag takes over and you get the death wobble?). He literally said the front of the arrow is being slowed down too much by the front of the arrow (drag) and would like an explanation why this leads to wobble. My hypothesis is the magnus effect on the spinning fletchings. Just like a baseball with backspins creates lift, the tail of the arrow with high rpm probably produces lift perpendicular to the flight path. At launch, drag is highest and magnus effect is lowest (no spin). Drag is what is pulling on the back of the arrow to keep it straight. As the arrow loses speed down range the force of drag becomes less and less and the magnus effect gets stronger and stronger (arrow spin accelerates) and creates more instability as it overwhelms the stabilizing force of drag.

[@sheldonhall5711]

@@asdfzxcvqwerasdf 1. Induced drag decreases as velocity increases, so actually as velocity decreases drag increases 2. Unless you're shooting parallel to and with the force of gravity, gravity is working against the arrow 3. The magnus effect is completely irrelevant, for the magnus effect the ball has to spin against the drag to manipulate the balls flight so basically the back of the ball has to spin to the front and an arrow doesnt spin like that. The fletchings make it spin on a different axis

[@asdfzxcvqwerasdf]

@@sheldonhall5711 1. Induced Drag is a measurement proportional to lift which an arrow has zero. It is created from an airfoil aka a wing - not a spinning fletching. Nobody is talking about induced drag, we are talking about parasitic drag which absolutely decreases as velocity decreases. Haven't you ever stuck your arm out of a car and felt the pull of air? Does the wind pull at your hand more when you drive slower? Of course not. How can you possibly think drag increases as speed decreases? Simply look at the formula for drag and you know it is directly proportional to velocity. So induced drag is "completely irrelevant". 2. I said most hunters shoot from a treestand. That means with the force of gravity (shooting down towards the ground.) I noted that shooting up at any angle works against gravity but that usually isn't the case if in a tree which most bow hunters are. I think you simply didn't read that point correctly. 3. While I agree that the majority of airflow is perpendicular to the rotation, there is definitely varying degrees of airflow across the arrow in the direction of rotation. Not only crosswind, but the fact that trajectory of an arrow isn't perfectly linear. As the arrow curves downward it is constantly turning. Since the fletchings aren't at the center of gravity there is some degree of vertical drag along the axis of rotation as the arrow changes trajectory. Not to mention we are talking about the tail of an arrow - something that is extremely light in proportion to it's surface area. Like spinning an oversized beach ball instead of a lead ball. It wouldn't take a lot of airflow to have a significant magnus effect for something spinning so fast with a lot of surface area and friction and also being extremely light. In the end I was only hypothesizing that the magnus effect was related. I offered my explanation with the preface that I didn't know and was only hypothesizing. I just did a google search now and it looks like magnus effect has been studied with arrows and does seem to have effect on arrow flight. I stand behind my hypothesis. The guy above me who is supposedly an engineer not only didn't offer an explanation at all, but what he said regarding drag was nonsense. I enjoy a bit of banter and nerd talk hence why I gave my two cents. Feel free to correct me.

[@sheldonhall5711]

@@asdfzxcvqwerasdf 1. Ok I was wrong on induced drag when I googled it to understand what he was saying, to me induced drag seemed to back what he said. And my misunderstanding of the 'drag increases as the speed increases' was I was interpreting it a the percentage of drag increases, so that's my bad 2. U said shooting down from a tree stand gravity would accelerate the arrow, but unless ur shooting straight down with the force of gravity, gravity is working against the direction of arrow and slowing it down. 3. I found that study, and the study was to figure out why bare shafts and fletched arrows at 30 yards hit the target different. They suspected lots of different causes and magnus effect was one of them but tuning removed the magnus effect

[@MasterBuckProducts]

Your insight into the construction of the arrow, all makes sense. I don’t think people, at first, put too much thought into it, but should because the rotation, what fletching configuration (3/4 fletch) and the offset and helical, all play a major part. Your channel is awesome, keep up the great work, 👍🏹

[@MasterBuckProducts]

With a TAC or Blazer vane, on a BITZENBERGER jig, I like a 1 degree offset, 3 fletch. But now I’m into the 4 fletch, same configurations, and they fly much better, especially down range. Great video!!

[@Mrcdwilliams]

Truth! I am a 32"DL @ 70# DW (G5 Prime Logic CT9) and I shoot the Dangerous Game 250 with 4 Bohning Zen vanes in a helical pushing a QAD Exodus (100g tip) as my hunting setup (in Massachusetts Black Bear, White Tail, rabbit, Quail, Pheasant, Turkey, Grouse, and a few others). Weight is 768.9 gains and 240 fps - DEAD SILENT!! My old configuration was a 484.8gr Woodland Camo 340's shot @ 305fps with Blazer vanes but whistled louder than the Seven Dwarfs on their way to work! BTW, the engineer, @Archer1941 explains flight characteristics very well. Awesome video!

[@Impossibly-Possible]

Christopher D Williams too much weight should try to get back up to 270-300 FPS and silent so deer don’t jump string

[@russelllangworthy8855]

@@Impossibly-Possible Not trying to be confrontational here, but increasing arrow speed to 300 fps isn't going to prevent a deer from jumping the string. Sound travels at roughly 1125 fps, so, while 300 fps sounds fast, it's still pretty slow....relative to the speed of sound.

[@cameronalexander359]

I "over fletched" for years and found out it was acting like a parrachute. Reduced my vane size & offset & my accuracy improved dramatically.

[@Kidnotcee]

Some of the best archery content on the internet

[@benmoore1097]

Love the video. More to think about. I prefer 4 fletch because of speed. On 3 fletch, you have to check which way you nock the arrow (odd one out). 4 fletch, you don't. Just grab, nock, fire! No looking :)

[@Bigtrain1]

510 grain, 31 inch black eagle rampage arrow, 274 fps, 4 blade min offset, flies great out to 80 yards. 60 yds is my hunting range unless😎😎. All your videos are very informative and seem to be dead on.

[@wagner24314]

the parachute effect you talk about is really a thrust effect of the arrow slowing down faster than the spin causing the vanes to act as a propeller.

[@the.reel.mccoy.]

My fletchings also ALWAYS hit the bus cable as well, no matter how I tune my bow accurately, it always rubs it. I might be switching!:)

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Sounds like your rest is way too far inside of center.

[@nateb4543]

That's why I went to 4 fletch. Switched from 3 blazers to 4 q2ii that are . 43" high. Aae pro Maxx have been good too

[@jp1419]

Try a four fletch with the AAE max stealth

[@danielellisporter]

Dude your explanations of things r spot on. Really like the channel. Subbed

[@DigtoDef]

Hey Callum, I'm really enjoying your content. One this I'd like point out, it's not the drag that stabilizes the arrow, but the lift. The lift produced by the vanes multiplied by its distance from the center of gravity must be greater than the lift of the nose multiplied by its distance from the cg. Even field points produce lift at the nose when the arrow is at angle of attack. Hope that's clear! I think your video on spine tuning is awesome!

[@Justrolln]

not sure if others are tracking... but I'd love some more detail on this idea. If the vanes are creating more lift, does that mean the arrow is trying to stay parallel to the ground as its flight arcs towards it's target? Or, what happens after the arrow peaks and the arrow starts it's way down? Also, doesn't more lift create more drag as well? I've gone through trials of what works best for my arrows, but am always looking for the 'why'... so I can explain things with more confidence. Also, if you only need just more than the lift of the point out back... could you get away with the same lift the point produces (as the vanes are further away from the CG?)

[@DigtoDef]

Kevin, Let me try to answer your last question first. The short answer is "yes". For simplicity, let's assume a very stiff arrow that does not bend in flight and is not rolling. For this thought experiment, lets neglect gravity too. When arrows 'wiggle' aka yaw in flight, they yaw about the center of gravity of the entire arrow. So let's suppose you have a yawed arrow in flight where the cg is located exactly equidistant between the nose and the vanes - then you would need more lift from the vanes than from the nose to assure stability. BUT if you move the cg forward, with a heavy insert for instance, the arrow now pivots around the new more forward cg location. Now you can get away with smaller vanes that may in themselves produce less lift than the nose does. BECAUSE... its the product of the lift due to the vanes times the distance the vanes are from the cg (aka the stabilizing moment arm) that MUST be greater than the lift due to the nose times the distance the nose is away from the cg (the destabilizing or 'overturning' moment arm) for the arrow to be stable. I am neglecting any lift due to the arrow shaft itself in this explanation, but that lift is insignificant compared to the lift of the nose and the vanes because they produce lift far away from the cg. Also I'm using the word lift generically since we are neglecting gravity. The arrow could flying nose left for instance and the nose lift vector and the vane lift vector would be pointing to the left, perpendicular to the trajectory. When the arrow later is yawed to the right due to the stabilizing moment overpowering the overturning moment (per above), the lift vectors switch direction and point to the right. The two lift vectors point in the same direction perpendicular to the trajectory, but they are on opposite sides of the cg, so the two moment arms (always) oppose each other. By the way, this is also why you can't fly a very big fixed-blade broadhead up front because a too-big broadhead produces an overturning moment greater than the stabilizing moment due to the vanes. I hope that helps!

[@mrnice752]

​@@Justrolln To answer your first question, the lift is what creates the spin of the arrow. Each fletch is a fixed wing, think of a plane rolling, each wing of the plane is creating "lift" in opposite directions. But essentially yes, this keeps the rear of the arrow in line with the tip, and it's known as the Magnus effect. The problem with having the wings at too sharp an angle is it starts to create too much drag like you mentioned and becomes an "air brake". The problem discussed in the video is correctly attributed to this "braking" effect of the large offset/helical. The other thing to consider is FOC. The back of the shaft is much lighter, stores less momentum, and is trying to slow down much faster than the heavy tip. Once all stored momentum is forward of the FOC, the rear of the arrow is literally being "dragged" through the air and it creates the erratic 'skipping' effect. This isn't really an issue for hunters that like to push heavy FOC for penetration because they shoot at such short distances. But this is the reason long range target shooters have a much more balanced/lighter arrow.

[@DigtoDef]

So now let's talk about the effect of drag on stability for a little bit. Drag acts in the same direction as the relative oncoming wind. As before lets neglect rolling, bending of the arrow, and gravity. And in this thought experiment let's pitch the arrow up at 3 deg angle of attack to the relative wind with the cg at the middle of a 30 in long arrow. For some numbers I found a recent paper on drag and lift on arrows (www.researchgate.net/publication/235908721_Aerodynamic_properties_of_an_archery_arrow). At 3 deg angle of attack the Total Drag on the arrow is 1.7 times greater than the Total Lift, and the vanes are 1/2 of the Total Drag. So it sounds like the Drag should greatly affect the stability. BUT, the Drag is at an angle of only 3 degrees to the arrow shaft. So the drag on the nose only acts through a small vertical distance away from the cg (about .79 inches) and the drag on the vanes acts through the same distance below the cg, since the cg is equi-distant from the nose and tail and the arrow is pitch nose up. Ok, here's the point. The destabilizing moment arm distance for the DRAG on the nose is nearly 20 times smaller (.79" vs 15") than moment arm distance for the LIFT on the nose! Same thing for the vanes. That is why the drag doesn't provide a lot of stability to the arrow. It all has to do with how far away from the cg the lift and drag forces are acting. I feel as though I am hi-jacking this thread, so I'll stop here unless there is more interest. Cheers.

[@russelllangworthy8855]

@@DigtoDef You said you're using "the word lift generically". Are you actually using "lift" as a variation of Bernoulli's Equation? Yes, I know, everyone associates Bernoulli's Equation with liquid, but his theory is also applied in aerodynamics. Just wondered if that was your premise. Good stuff. It's nice to see someone with a brain on here for a change.

[@Mr2eyedjack]

I shoot mainly 3 fletch 2 1/2" fetching with 2-3 degree off set. I made up some 4 fletch using same vanes with 120 × 60 configuration. The 4 fletch would consistently impact just over 1/2" above the 3 fletch at 50 yards. Past that my groups weren't good enough to tell what was happening. I never knew why.

[@Patriot36]

4:55 In the study of Aerodynamics, "drag" doesn't/can't achieve "stability" and is its own specific force. The term you're looking for is "lift." We typically think of the word lift as an upward force but aerodynamic lift isn't limited to any direction of pitch or yaw which means that if the arrow comes off the rest nock high, lift pushes the back of the arrow down toward center. If the arrow comes off the rest nock left, lift pushes the back of the arrow to the right toward center. So, it's lift vectors that stabilize the arrow. "Drag" can only slow a arrow but doesn't stabilize the arrow. Vanes do have aerodynamic drag but probably not in the way that many think and actual drag again, does not stabilize. Actual drag would come from the leading edges of the vanes where the air separates and the back of the vanes were the air collapses back causing micro-turbulence. If a vane is too thin to the point that it flutters in flight, this can multiply drag values. There's an additional small drag penalty to spinning the arrow up to its final RPM but there's so little rotational mass in a lightweight arrow that this drag penalty is initial and small, fractions of inch/lbs. Arrow spin at the RPM typical of arrow's also doesn't stabilize the arrow the way a spinning football or bullet is stabilized by its spin, because the arrow is so long and the spinning mass so small. The spinning of the arrow averages out imperfections in the arrow system, such as a slightly bent vane, micro inconsistencies in broadhead surfaces or a slightly bent arrow shaft.

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Good to know.

[@evanbracken7694]

That was a good sorting out. Thanks for the info.

[@lukesandri6576]

Perfect timing, I've started fletching my own arrows this week. All your videos have been awesome so far, keep up the great work 👍🏻

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Happy to help Luke!

[@vieuxacadian9455]

As a trad bowhunter with 11 bows , I have a couple of bows that I run 4 @75 / 105 degree spacing with 4" feathers and 2 degree helical .One bow that uses 4 @ 90 degree , 4"feathers with 2 degree helical . 4 spaced feathers are far better in windy conditions with far less drift in My experience .

[@brentscholfield5194]

Great timing finding this video, just getting ready to fletch a heavy arrow build with big fixed blade broadheads.

[@CharlesHuse]

My 1st set of homebrew arrows was a dozen xx75 Eastons 2016 aluminum shafts. They are tipped with 125gr. PDP field points and fletched with AAE trad vanes on my BPE jig. The jig itself is fair. It will do 3, 4, & 6 vane configurations. I experimented with standard 3 vane sets, as well as 90° and 75x120 4-vane configs. I was using an AAE Micro Flyte rest on my Hoyt Satori but it kept ripping that one vane off. One day, I decided to see what would happen if I yanked the opposing vane off on one of the 4 vane arrows. 2 vanes flies decently.

[@carlosweaver6763]

If you see this, I wondered about a short video on Easton 5mm axis arrows. Such as on inserting the break off brass inserts, and if can use an arrow square even after that brass is inserted. Either way thanks so much for the channel, it’s my go to for saving videos on fletching. Starting my own after this season

[@GarretTowneAMS]

Great channel. I would like to see a video on making arrows.

[@haranwood1232]

just a complete guess here but with the over spinning thing it MIGHT be that the air coming of the front of on vane is having flow separation(meaning the air is coming away from the vane as opposed to staying with it) due to the kinda " high angle of attack" and either causing a low pressure on the inside if the vane causing the vane to bend or perhaps vortex shedding is occurring and and the back of the next vane is hitting the vortex basically causing chaos makes sense that it happens at longer distances as the arrow reaches peak rpm but also the vortex shedding can take some time to manifest, as i say just a guess from an apprentice fabrication engineer that's very new to archery

[@tradarcher8714]

I’d like to see a video of a fun set up and fletching with the bitzenburger jig. I hadn’t seen avid like that. I am having issues dialing my in.

[@sethwinkel5721]

Here is an experiment: Load a set of arrows with the same fletching and modified FOC. Sub 10/15/20% field point tipped. Then document how soon the parachute effect opens up the group.

[@James.712]

I'm an average joe that doesn't super fine tune my hunting set up... Long story short, started shooting 4 vanes this year and it's the first time that my G5 Montecs hit spot for spot with my field tips at all distances I will comfortably attempt an animal at; 50 yards and in. In past years with three vane set ups, I would have to move my sight right or left slightly to chase the groupings of the broadheads. As I said, if I spent more time tuning my hunting set up, I could likely achieve better results with a three vanes.

[@nickblaylock5115]

Good info...ive been doing the same experiment...with the four fletching..and i increases helical and notice out past 50 yards i get that wobble...been driving me crazy...

[@zandersmith2466]

this was a verry simple and well thought out viedo and was verry easy to understand

[@tonyviers-de9qi]

I’ve tried both ways, and honestly, I don’t think most people could tell the difference. Its just extra $, and at distance it’s going to drop more

[@keithderr9564]

I’ve got Sirius making me some adult arrows (Ranch Fairy)... their Apollo’s with lots of FOC. They suggested 4 vanes, I’m looking forward to shooting that configuration.

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Good luck when it comes to tuning. You'll need the extra penetration, because arrows that have over 20% foc don't group for shit past 50yds.

[@rustyshackleford1091]

@@InsideOutPrecision I’m calling bullshit, from my experience high foc arrows actually fly far better than low foc arrows past 50 yards.

[@rustyshackleford1091]

@@InsideOutPrecision Also I’d like to say your videos are really good and it’s interesting hearing different points of view on arrow setups.

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Thanks! I hope those arrows work out.

[@InsideOutPrecision]

@@rustyshackleford1091 to each their own. Try to find a professional archery that shoots high foc.

[@jamiestien967]

I was considering a 4 fletch b/c I'm building a "Ranch Fairy" arrow. I do have 1 question: Would a turbulator help the parachute effect you mentioned?

[@actualtreecare]

Ok so out of a whisker biscuit which would have more drag, a 4 vane configuration or 3 vanes with helical?

[@InsideOutPrecision]

4 vanes will definutely cause more drag through a Whisker Biscuit.

[@sthompson447]

As always, great video! Very informative!

[@outdoorlifewithdougb]

Great vid. Wondering if you can help with a more in depth video of FOC? I have a good understanding of foc but when you change the front weight to get more foc I'm concerned of changing spine. Should I go to stiffer spine? Hunting moose this fall and hope to shoot no further than 40yds and want an ethical kill. Of course the closer the better. Thanks if you can shed more light on the subject.

[@decaturridgebees8761]

Yes, if you increase the weight up front you’ll need a stiffer spine

[@agashamnon]

Check out the Sniper 101 series by TiborasaurusRex, specifically part 70 on Aerodynamic Stability. I think the limit on helical/offset angle might be over stabilization and tractability, i.e. the high spin from a high helical angle prevents the arrow tip from changing direction to point down as the arrow starts to "fall" at long distance. Don't know that this is the case but physically it makes sense

[@agashamnon]

Part 69 from 5:27 to 9:22 might be more helpful

[@tsunika26]

the para shoot is the vane wanting to slow down faster than the point/broad head wants to

[@josephnorcalusa1710]

Helpfull information, thank you bro !

[@davidbuurma9309]

How about a video building arrows for 3D shooting...I can’t seem to find any on that subject...

[@stitchowi]

What’s the difference?

[@HuckFTW]

Are you sure the angle of fletching helical/offset is actually measured over a particular distance? That doesn’t sound right. I’ve always thought of the fletch angle to be exactly that. Just the angle of the base of fletching in relation to the axis of the arrow. In other words 0 degrees would be straight fletch parallel to the shaft, and 90 degrees would be perpendicular (like a ring around the shaft).

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Depends on the jig you use

[@HuckFTW]

@@InsideOutPrecision didn’t know that, thanks

[@HuckFTW]

To your point, here’s a good article with drawings showing the 2 different ways of measuring fletch angle. For anyone else who comes across this. www.bohning.com/portfolio-item/removing-vanes-adhesive-wraps-paint/

[@brandonbruggeman7925]

When doing a 4 fletch does it matter if you do an offset or a helical?

[@kylelandry375]

I’m just got a dozen Victory Vap SS 300s. I’m running the 50gr Shok TL, and looking for a 125gr fixed heads. I’m planning on a 4 fletch 90/90 with Bohning Heat 2 1/4” vanes @ 3*. Hunting hogs and whitetail, 29.5” draw. No archery shops in my area seem to be competent. I was wondering if you could please help. Thanks

[@dustinhayden2870]

So I have a question I'm running standard dia arrows 3 fletch 2inch blaser vanes not twist but I contacting my drop away with the vane if torn the vane to miss the rest then it runs the cable help

[@Trout2TrailOutdoors]

I enjoyed the video very much. I am planning on running a 4 fletch on my arrows this year for hunting but will also be target shooting these arrows as far back as 100 yards. I was wondering if you would suggest an offset and if so how much or would you even consider fletching them strait? I am shooting a the Easton hexx 260 and am planning on using the bohning heat vanes.

[@ChunkyChancho]

Would arrow flight be negatively effected if any fletching aren’t perfectly straight? I think some of mine are at a tiny bit bent from laying around. It’s not a dramatic bend but it’s definitely not perfect

[@InsideOutPrecision]

I mean the vanes definitely need an offset or helical so the arrow spins, but if the vane is bent i can effect its flight

[@raymondjones1866]

Question I got is Blazers recommend right offset or right helical I wrapped and fletched a 3°right helical with a Lastchance vane master pro but noticed when I bareshaft and silver sharpie marked my FMJs they naturally rotated to the left does it really make a real difference doing a left offset or with 3° helical correct it fast

[@InsideOutPrecision]

It doesn't make a huge difference, but most right handed shooters will run a left helical or offset... more so for the clearance of your cables than anything. I'd be surprised if you saw any difference in groups sizes

[@lucamarialanza7319]

Just a question, keep in mind I'm a total amateur, are helical vanes good for compound bows? I think IMHO a whisker bisquit is not the must but with a flip down arrow rest can they works fine? Thank you for your time.

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Yes you need helical on any arrow. You can still shoot helical with a whisker biscuit

[@derrickscelza2310]

I shoot a drop away rest does it matter if I put the odd color fletching up?

[@richevans6506]

Thanks for the great channel and great content. Quick question: I'm interested in switching to lower-profile vanes (like .41 or .43). As a general rule, is it better to go with a 4-vane configuration with this type of vane? My overall objective with these arrows is long-range consistency/accuracy.

[@DaveGme]

I’m fighting the wind more than anything out here in Northern NM, so I chose a 4 fletch Air vane to try and get a smaller side profile. What’s your opinion on what’s best to fight the wind?

[@GuroJeromeTeague]

Heavier arrow, 3 fletch low profile helical, and get more weight on the front. Higher FOC % has better flight through wind. I typically shoot a 12-13% arrow. That is not high FOC by the standards of what guys are experimenting with now, but Gold Tip recommends not exceeding 15%. Speed is good, but Kinetic Energy (KE) is what kills. Arrow weight is an important part of that equation and the primary concern when talking about the arrow's ability to resist deflection due to lateral force of wind. KE in ftlbs= arrow speed x arrow speed x arrow weight / 450,240 My Hoyt Hyperforce is getting 85ftlbs of KE off the riser with a 446 grain arrow which is firing at 290fps. I have shot this weight in light wind and have not seen any deviations. Obviously you know your equipment, situation, and individual desires for your shooting. Experiment and enjoy. Just remember KE kills and weight resists lateral deflections.

[@DaveGme]

Thanks GJT. I'm shooting a Pro Force, 28” DL, 63# DW, and a 380 gr. arrow. It's a Victory 3DHV with a .251 OD. My FOC is 16% according to the GT calculator. Across the chrono, I'm getting 272 FPS. I didn't buy the fastest bow out there, but I like what forgiveness it gives me. It seems to be performing as I’d like in the side winds I'm experiencing. I got my wife GT Pierce which I'll 3 fetch. I don't think there's enough room to put 4 on there. I'm interested to see how they do.

[@OldPackMule]

It takes energy to spin the arrow. The maximum energy is immediately after it leaves the string. Over distance that energy is robbed by drag and by the increase in rotational velocity. At some point the arrow looses so much energy and slows so much with so much spin it becomes unstable, thus, your parachute. Why do you feel a big shudder in a plane when the wheels touch down? Because you've transferred a huge amount of forward motion into rotational motion of the wheels. Same idea.

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Well put! Thanks

[@Scott_Seward]

Great video. Anyone have experience using the Trocar BH with a left offset arrow setup? Since these broadheads have right helical built in to the blades, I'm curious if this would conflict with the left offset arrow setup? Thanks.

[@Just_Wanna_Drive]

I've watched two of your videos now, and have just sub'd. Quality stuff man, thanks! That parachute effect is something that I have fought for a while but couldn't ever figure it out. Thanks!

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Awesome man! Thanks for the sub.

[@Codidicus]

I shoot a 80lb rx4 30 in draw, my arrows (Easton axis match) are 565 grains. From this video I gather I would possibly benefit from a four fletch? I also love shooting at events where targets get out to 90 yards or so. How does a four fletch change things at a distance?

[@Huntkosmonek]

Did you end up finding any Info on this? I’m in the same situation I got a 80lb RX4 ultra with a 31 inch draw and have Easton axis arrows roughly 520 grains with just the standard insert and am trying to find what fletching configuration would be best for hunting/3d target archery out to 100 yards

[@Codidicus]

@@Huntkosmonek I just fletched up some three and some 4 and shot groups for a month. Found that for me the 4 fletched was more consistent. especially at distance.

[@Huntkosmonek]

@@Codidicus awesome thanks for the feedback! Are you still sticking with the axis arrows or did you end up switching up? According to eastons spine charts my draw length and poundage is too much for any of their arrows and I need 200 spine. My axis shoot good as is but I was hoping to boost my foc a little as it’s at 7.5%. What kind of a arrow set up do you run for your specs since they are quite similar to mine? Arrows, tip weight, etc

[@Codidicus]

@@Huntkosmonek ya the spine calculator/chart I used said I should be shooting a 250 spine. But if I go to 78 pounds I could do the 260 axis’s. Ive been playing with the 260 axis’s I had on hand (my bow is only shooting 79#s) and its been grouping just fine. I’m just going to keep running them for the time being. I run a fair bit up front as well, 50 grain portion of the hitt inserts and a 125gr point. I was testing with the 100gr point as well, but the 125s have been doing a lot better for me.

[@robertdeis132]

I own a Bitzenburger and every time I fletch an arrow the vanes come out canted. How can I fix the cant?

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Well they shouldn't be perfectly straight. If rhe jig is right helical, the back of the vane should be slightly to left of the front. But if they're laying over then you need to the top and bottom of the jig

[@dmott9750]

I'm shooting a whisker biscuit and a 125 gr fixed bh. What type, size, helical do you suggest for vanes? Thanks for all your videos. The best on youtube.

[@tmalonso]

Most whisker biscuits seem to prefer a straight fletch configuration, some will use a mild offset but too much helical and the vanes can snag the whiskers on their way by…if you’re hoping to try a helical vane config, have you ever considered a drop-away arrow rest? Some of the QAD’s can be found pretty cheap if you hunt for sales.

[@glennprince9983]

If you are shooting say a 200 grain Iron Will Broadhead wide cut what would you recommend.

[@InsideOutPrecision]

What's your draw weight and draw length?

[@glennprince9983]

70lb 29 inch draw

[@InsideOutPrecision]

@@glennprince9983 3 fletch would probably be fine, but 4 doesn't hurt anything

[@voxpopuli905]

I just watched a video, guy purchased a used bow barely used. Came with a 12pack of gold tip hunter 340, and he right away said they are too light and wants to hunt w something else. However my cousin is a terminator when it comes to bow hunting and he's using a older than dirt bow, high country ultra force and carbon express cx200 arrows, and prob a 75 grain tip. He seems to do quite well, even has had arrows pass right through the deer. So it makes me wonder where the other guy got the idea the gold tip 8.9 gpi is gonna be too light for hunting coming out of a pretty substantial bowtech bow... which is basically what I got, arrows also. I've also got a set of maxima red. Think what the guy said is just a matter of opinion?

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Well the fact that he "sometimes" passes through the deer tells me his arrow weight is pretty low. Try to get it between 430 and 460. Arrow weight won't get you any closer to animals, but when you find them, you'll crush it 😉

[@voxpopuli905]

@@InsideOutPrecision a year has passed... just wondering if ya snorted the fairy dust yet? LoL and I don’t mean PCP lol don’t do that

[@InsideOutPrecision]

@@voxpopuli905 nah still not a crazy high FOC guy.

[@voxpopuli905]

@@InsideOutPrecision in the last 5 years. What was your favorite bow and why? I really like the Halon32. The VXR is really just an extension of the Halon32 and I really want one. I’m just not willing to trade in my Halon32 to get one. Silly as that sounds.

[@Codidicus]

I’m having a hell of a time with getting my 4 vane arrows to paper tune righ with my QAD drop away test. Any tips?

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Get rid of the QAD lol.

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Cable driven rests just don't support the arrow long enough. There's a reason you don't see any pro's using them

[@greekmaster1001]

My arrow bare shaft spins counter clockwise when I shoot....should I use a left helical....

[@Pypamid]

Yes

[@IIDASHII]

Another thing to consider is that four vanes will be affected less by cross wind than a three vane setup of similar surface area, as the surface area in that plane is significantly less. As a hunter, I'm considering the switch for this reason alone.

[@melvatemple9521]

Love the vids keep it up

[@mattboast]

So are you best to use 4 vains from the start with a hunting set up ?

[@InsideOutPrecision]

No it just depends on the vane. If you run a lower profile vane, then 4 helps stabilize the arrow a little faster with a fixed blade broadhead. If you use a higher profile vane like a blazer or max hunter, then 3 is more than enough to stabilize your arrow

[@ericandlindydubbelde3538]

I just picked up some AAE hybrid 26 vanes. I'm shooting a 125 grain magnus stinger broadhead. I'm debating 3 or 4 fletch. Set up is for deer and elk.

[@mickmcgann6013]

Whats the best glue mate. I have never had much like with my vans. I have tried half dozen glues. Think the problem could be me🤔

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Its most likely the vane you're using. Any of the AAE Mac vanes require you to use acetone and denatured alcohol to prep the vane first. Then any super glue should work

[@mickmcgann6013]

@@InsideOutPrecision cheers mate. They are aae. Thanks heaps. Love all the videos to. U go a grate job with getting good info out there.

[@Tattooedharvester1983]

Just upgraded to a qad

[@aldoraine9259]

And for this reason why Dr. Ashby fully studied All these attributes that you speak of and real life tested for 30 years to determine that the Single Bevel Broadhead, that, on it's own physicality performs twist, and, coupled with Tapered Arrows performs superior to most Builds (or Rigs) to date. That being said, Dr. Ashby also determined that a Straight Fletching coupled with said Single bevel Broadhead was sufficient to induce spin upon contact with the medium, without creating too much drag, created by the offset, or helical of the Fletching. In other words, if using a serious two blade, single bevel Broadhead, there is no need to have Fletching with anything but a Straight index. It still serves a purpose (stabilization) while not creating a parachute effect (Drag). The desired effect of the Single Bevel Broadhead, to induce twist will accordingly create massive hemmoriaging and disrupt of tissue ensuing a rather quick death. This is what we all hope for. I like your channel, and find myself more often than not watching your videos. Good job man, I believe we are on the same page. Thank you!

[@rickhuff5197]

Do they make a low profile 4” feather

[@johnnygreen1069]

Nice video

[@hackelite01]

What are your specs on the indoor arrow? Got part of it

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Cut at 30" with 300gr. up front.

[@tarrshuntinghabitathomeste4619]

Well done

[@draven3838]

I use only 2 feathers and I like it

[@macadoo7755]

question.. how are you indexing a three blade head with a 4 vane configuration? i feel that should be a factor..🤔

[@russelllangworthy8855]

Robert Mccabe. The blade to vane orientation isn't important. You just need to be sure all your broadheads are oriented identically on each arrow so that when they leave the bow, they all catch the air the same.

[@sparks6177]

@@russelllangworthy8855 it will make a difference it’s just debatable how much it will effect flight, it looks like he uses 4 blade broad heads for 4 vane and 3 blades for 3 vane. I think op either forgot 4 blade heads or doesn’t know they exist

[@russelllangworthy8855]

@@sparks6177 I've been fletching my own arrows for over 40 yrs but I never studied physics or aerodynamics, so I'm uninformed about this topic. Can you tell me how blade to vane orientation affects arrow flight? I might have to rethink how I install my broadheads.

[@sparks6177]

@@russelllangworthy8855 I’m also fairly uninformed but the way I think about it is, the broad head is cutting a path through the air which creates drag, now with the vanes not aligned they also have to cut a whole new path through the air creating even more drag and slowing the arrow down even more but if you align everything there’s less air that each piece has to cut through and reduces the overall drag to only what’s necessary for proper flight. There’s better explanations out there but I hope I did an ok job explaining the concept, I’m also not sure how big a difference this makes. For the alignment it’s probably best to fletch an arrow like normal and then screw a threaded barrel onto a broad head and glue it like normal twisting the head into alignment with the fletching Edit: it would be fairly easy to align a head and play with it to see if it makes a difference. If you do test it I would love to hear what your thoughts are considering how long you’ve been fletching arrows and presumably doing archery Edit 2: I’m fairly new to archery so definitely don’t take my word as gospel, to me it’s theoretical and an interesting idea on a way to further optimize arrows

[@russelllangworthy8855]

@@sparks6177 Thanks for responding. For the record, I still shoot aluminum arrows, so it's easy for me to adjust my broadheads. Just heat the hotmelt and twist the insert. No glueing for me, like with carbon arrows. I get what you're saying about the blades and the vanes cutting the air, but I don't think any arrows travel fast enough for the vane to benefit from the blades. Again, I'm no engineer or scientist so I don't know for sure. I won't be doing any testing. I really don't care that much anymore. I just care that my arrows fly well enough to kill a deer. Lol.

[@rednkfn]

Mugatu- 4 vane is so in right now...

[@rednkfn]

@God sees all!!! it was a movie reference joke.

[@GerardSmithLWCP]

where is that Tee from? :)

[@jimpage6533]

4 fletch 4 inch feathers RH Hel.

[@dhouser1088]

Do you still have to index the broadheads with a 4 fletch setup?

[@redsoxwinagain2007]

4 vaines = more moist?

[@cyzam]

thanks very helpful!

[@keithderr9564]

Where did you get that shirt?

[@bretkitchin5212]

Personally I prefer 2

[@InsideOutPrecision]

2 vanes?? Better be long with lots of helical!

[@bretkitchin5212]

I'm native Mi'kmaq from Canada and that is how we traditionally make our arrows, Although we regularly use feathers some have started using vanes and it is quite interesting

[@bretkitchin5212]

@@InsideOutPrecision we wrap the feathers around the shaft in a way that it creates a spiral. If you are interested I suggest you look into it, it is quite unique.

[@InsideOutPrecision]

@@bretkitchin5212 might work well for feathers but a plastic vane would cause all sorts of issues. I've made flu flu arrows the way you're talking about, but they dont fly very well ir very far.

[@bretkitchin5212]

@@InsideOutPrecision that is fair, I am not nearly as experienced with vanes as I am feathers, I've seen it done with vanes and it seemed to work well but that could have been strictly coincidence, thank you for informing me.

[@Warmspringsrezbuck]

How many degrees is a blitzenburger right helical from the factory set at? I have the right helical clamp.

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Its 12° but thats over the entire 6" of the clamp. Puts like a 3-4° on most vanes

[@benpena2832]

Would that be the minimum helical on the bitzenburger? Can you set the right helical clamp to zero helical? Planning on getting one. I shoot 4 vanes but thinking now some to no helical on 4 vane is better.

[@jimrice4699]

@@InsideOutPrecision I'm thinking that you measure "degrees of angle" different how most people think about it especially since the length of the vane (or any device) does not change the angle that the device is presented at vs. a "base. I'm guessing you are actually measuring the degree to which the vane wraps around the circumference of the arrow shaft because that would in fact increase with vane length but it is definitely NOT the same as the degree of twist. I have measured the helical on my Bitz Right Helical using the popular tool sold by Lancaster (I cant think of the name at the moment). I can assure you that it is very difficult to get more than 2.5 degrees with it. I am also definitely not a highly skilled fletcher, but any review of online resources will deliver the same information - namely, it is very difficult to get more than about 2.5 degrees of helical with a Bitzenburger. In fact, I recently had several phone calls with Bitzenburger regarding my inability to do better than 2.5 degrees (I called them because some authorities claim that they can get to 3 degrees with a Bitz and I was shooting for that magical 3 degrees to match some other arrows in my aresenal - otherwise I wouldn't have cared enough to bother Bitz). Bitz confirmed that getting more than about 2.5 degrees is not possible. This was communication over several days and included sharing photos. Mostly it took several days because they are in a rural location and barely have internet... I also have a jig set at 3 degrees that is made by a competitive archer. I'm taking his word that it is 3 degrees, but I have also done the best I can to cross check vs. the Lancaster tool and I've compared it to what I can achieve with the Bitz. The 3 degree jig provides more twist than what I can get with the Bitz - and the vane attachment is more consistent. I also have his 2 degree tool. That tool comes close to matching what I can get with my Bitz RH Helical jig. Two Notes: I have not "chopped" my Bitz helical jig. If I did so it might be possible to achieve a bit more twist - but not much more. Maybe I could get a "sloppy fit" 3 degrees on my 4mm arrow shafts. Also note I am fletching Easton Axis and FMJ 4 mm shafts. A wider diameter shaft would probably be easier to adjust the Bitz to get to 3 degrees.

[@jasonnester9514]

I’ve yet to see 4 vanes ahoot better than three

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Yeah the only time a see a difference is with really heavy arrows with a fixed blade broadhead

[@trimmin420]

I have never seen an arrow that large in my life LOL what the hell is that ?

[@mr.skeptical3071]

Four will take your f.o.c. down and add noise

[@benathens3294]

OMG!!! There is no way you can have good flight with 4 vanes and a 3 blade broadhead!!! How do you line up the vanes and the blades???? LOL

[@jerrystringer8190]

thanks your the man