Installing Swales in Clay & Poor Draining Soils

[@Christodophilus]

I was very interested in this, as we hand-dug our swales, in clay. Waiting a couple of days after it rained though, as it's like cement otherwise. We didn't do any ripping, and find the cracks which appear in the swale in the dry, fill up and expand in the wet. So you don't actually lose water, if that's what Paul is worried about. Our clay, holds onto the water, deep down, and loses it last, when all the well draining soils have sunk their water to the acquifiers. Because clay perculates slower. We found we had to expand our swales wider, and/or deepen them, to accommodate the heaviest flows. So we weren't losing water in big falls. Or we'd simply expand more swales, or put in a pond, from the overflow. I've not seen a need for ripping, when using pioneer trees, or trees with the ability to live in clay. We've had success with mulberries, carob, olives, mango and even citrus, if planted on a mound. Pioneer trees are select acacias, pigeon peas, leucana and saltbush for understorey. Grasses which do well, are lemongrass, lomandra and vetiver. Establishing is the hardest phase though. Best get your plants in the ground, during autumn. They have a chance to push their roots down for nine months, before the heat of the next summer. But they still need additional water during summer, for those first few years. Swales definitely work in clay though, and haven't regretted building ours.

[@nessav7258]

Hi Chris. I appreciated your response. The beauty of plants suited to clay soils are their ability to open it up. Peter Andrews in Australia talks about 'cracking clays' whereby cracks in the dry times are there to take in as much water as possible in the wet to hydrate the under layers. Nature sure is amazing.

[@Christodophilus]

​@@nessav7258 Agree. Nature is monumental in all the diverse adaptations. Peter Andrews is in my repertoir of mentors too. He helped me understand how the clay worked on our property. The cracks hydrating the soil in the wet, as you mentioned. Closing again, when they're full, so they don't loose moisture as fast, when the rain leaves. I can see why Geoff would suggest ripping though, if your goal is a quick turnaround and you're paying for large equipment anyway. But given enough time, with the correct design, and you reach the same destination, without ripping. Just depends what your schedule and budget is like.

[@hannahmakingrivendell4347]

Hi Chris, what is your climate? I am 9B (phoenix az) trying to figure out if mulberry will work as a pioneer tree for me too

[@Christodophilus]

@@hannahmakingrivendell4347 I'm located in Australia, where the winters are very mild. If we ever get a frost, the temps don't go below 4C (39F). I believe mulberry can grow in your zone though. You'll want to start establishing in the ground, after your last frost date, and mulch well before your next expected frost date. So the roots are protected from freezing. At least in the first year of establishing. You can help reduce frost by planting in groups, or near any hard infrastructure that can retain heat and reduce frost (like rocks, concrete, retaining walls or buildings). I like to buy one fruit tree and see how it performs in the first year, in my conditions. I also like to have seed on hand of fast growing, sacrificial pioneer trees that also fix nitrogen. Which is pigeon peas and leucaena trees, for my area. I plant the seeds around the fruit tree I wish to protect. Minimum, 1 metre from tree. The tree I want to keep is protected by the sacrificial ones, that get all the climate extremes. If it can survive, I buy more of the same fruit-tree species, or propagate the one that lived. Hope that helps.

[@hannahmakingrivendell4347]

@@Christodophilus Thanks so much!!!! This is incredibly useful!

[@saucywench9122]

I'll say it again. Put Geoff Lawton in a room with Peter Andrews, Alan Savory and Paul Stamets and we can not only figure out how to rehab the environment but also take care of pollution and weather the continuous climate change successfully!

[@b_uppy]

Remove Savory, his knowledge is limited. Replace him with Mark Shepard, Mark's methods are more encompassing while still embracing the same concepts. Add Brad Lancaster, too.

[@saucywench9122]

I agree with adding Lancaster and Shepherd but not to the extent of excluding Savory. My reason is simple but a horrible pill to swallow. Every continent had it's own grazing animals that evolved. For America it was the Bison, antelope, deer and so on. These animals were massively culled and /or driven away in favor of cattle. Epic boo boo. Right up there with over trapping the beaver thus further assisting in the demise of the midwest. It's pathetic really. Savory's method is frowned on because people are looking at it through the lense of agriculture application and not ecosystem restoration. A lot of people are just too scared of big animals that they can't control through domestication which leads to the thought that that they really don't need the animal around. In typical human short sightedness they get rid of what they then see as a problem animal/s and take it out of the ecosystem entirely thus furthering imbalance and inviting desertification. Sorry about the rant B Uppy! Wow, I just read over what I wrote and I so didn't keep it simple, lol. Bottom line, Savory's methods might not work agricultural but the core components can't be ignored for when it comes to ecosystem restoration. There just aren't enough people willing to do the work necessary for life on any continent that animals do just by being there. We can plant all the trees we want but grasslands are necessary and are maintained by multiple species of graziers. There are just some places that crops should not be.

[@b_uppy]

@@saucywench9122 Not talking about Savory's methods working on domesticated livestock (they do). Am talking about that it is *just* animal management and conservation that are his purview. He is not a farmer and therefore very limited in his scope. Shepard already employs the pressured grazing techniques and with more sophistication than Savory does. Read Shepard's book, Restoration Agriculture. Reread my sentence above. "A horrible pill to swallow" is your tragi-comedy writing...

[@Christodophilus]

I'd love to see Geoff and Peter, work on a project together, as I'm often cross referencing their material on our property. Geoff has the design system and can explain it's application, but Andrews has the unique understanding of how Australian soils, hydrate the landscape. And therefore, a lot of earth-moving can be paired down, if it's done with precision. I don't think ripping is needed, for example, but I can see why some may wish to start with that application, if they're going to spend a lot of money installing a swale.

[@nessav7258]

@@saucywench9122 I agree with the points you make about the grazing animals evolving on certain terrain. In parts of Australia, we have soft footed animals that graze eg kanagaroo. The English introduced hard footed animals that compacted the soil and eroded waterways or confine animals that graze to soil level, unlike native wildlife.

[@TheVigilantStewards]

This was a really good one. We have a lot of clay in Texas.... this kind of touched on a question I have and that is this : How do you rip deeper than a ripper, oxygenate deeply, and develop healthy soil up to 10-12 feet down? It sounds like once you get the first 2-3 feet going, the roots take care of the rest. Do you ever inject compost tea deep in the soil? If swales are a tree growing system, I'd like to see the ideal system for the kitchen garden. I've seen your chicken compost making areas... I'd be curious if someone lived a plant based life if you would still opt for that. In permaculture, do we just deal with forests, grassland, and wetland?

[@etherealrose2139]

Another relevant video for me out in the dry desert. I just wish I had more land to experiment on. thanks for sharing expertise for free, Geoff. it inspires me and hopefully I can inspire others and we can bring back what feeds us all (plant, air. and soil life.)

[@montpellierpermaculture4856]

Geoff, thank you for all the knowledge you share into your videos ! More specifically, what pioneering trees with deep tap roots and loving waterlogging would you recommand for a hot and dry mediterranean climate ? Cheers !

[@yusralouhi2788]

J'aimerai savoir aussi vu que j'habite le meme climat que vous dans le Nord de l'Algerie. La figue et la grenade sont les arbres qui me viennent a l'idée.... Mes citronniers ne me demandent aucun travail de sol non plus que ça soit été ou hiver.

[@stefanomoretti3664]

@@yusralouhi2788 Je partage un climat similaire (Nord ouest Sardaigne) mais je ne crois pas que ni figues ni citronniers aiment les terrains avec beaucoup d'argile... peur etre que pour enrichir le sol en azote les accacias soient adaptes comme plantes pionières.

[@barrymacfarlane]

Hi Geoff, I've watched a lot your videos and you've really inspired me. With regards to swales in the kind of climate in the video, hot dry Mediterranean, with rainfall coming in short storms. I've just bought 7ha in central Portugal, and my current thinking is to construct a network of mostly narrow trench swales, I'm thinking 600mm wide, upto 2.5m deep, and having these filled with woodchips to act as a large sponge. I've got a heavy clay soil on a moderate, west facing slope, I'm looking at rainfall patterns and sunshine/heat. What I'm thinking is lots of deep, narrow swales would be more effective at storing and distributing water over the long term, than shallower, wider swales with ponds. I'm thinking ponds here would lose a lot to evaporation and a larger network of narrow, deep, swales would, be more effective in storing and slowly distributing water. Would you have any thoughts on this?

[@petrosstefanis6234]

Great question.

[@kwlweapons]

Indeed, I'm in a similar climate and an answer to this would definitely help.

[@saucywench9122]

Great question. Also, can the process be sped up with mycelium inoculation?

[@b_uppy]

Your idea makes sense where it is typically a drier, hotter climate. Wood chips would be less hazardous than open swales for manuevering. It is quite possible that with wood chips on the berms and in the bottom of the swales you might not need to go as deep, nor need to use as many chips. The problem with using a lot of chips is it is resource intensive.

[@TheCommono]

I wouldn't that it's a good idea to put woodchips in a depth of 2.5m because of the anaerobic conditions down there. But I suppose you have that idea from somewhere and its been done already?

[@b_uppy]

Geoff, sounds like you are talking regarding hardpan or blue clay, hence ripping the soil under both berm and swale.

[@SebR-FR]

I'm French and I'm not sure I understand "ripping" "ripped" correctly in this context. Is it to plough?

[@b_uppy]

@@SebR-FR This might help explain some things: kzbin.info/www/bejne/p5_RgJiZbdJmna8

[@SebR-FR]

@@b_uppy Thx you for this link, very interesting and I've got the correct meaning now.

[@b_uppy]

@@SebR-FR Your welcome.

[@olsonlr]

[Psa 1:1-3 KJV] 1 Blessed [is] the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. 2 But his delight [is] in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. 3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

[@fillfinish7302]

Look at that dog just walking non chalantly , 😊

[@curiosidadesextrano]

Great advice. Cute doggy 😊

[@emkoravo]

Any soil amendment methods to improve flocculation in addition to or in lieu of mechanical methods?

[@Mindy56743]

I live in the ozark mountains of Missouri and we have red clay and rocks. The top soil is only about a inch think and I am dreaming about turning my 30 acres into a permaculture homestead. What would you recommend for the first step. Thank you for the time

[@DiscoverPermaculture]

Take my online PDC about to be released mid-June it will be a game-changer for you.

[@yinqingquan3397]

What do you mean when you say 'rip'?

[@outoftheratrace967]

I have recently purchased some land that is heavy with clay soil and also has a large amount of rainfall in the wet season, resulting in flooding. The land is also very flat. Have you witnessed successful use of swales in this type of tropical environment as buffers for flood waters?

[@123Homefree]

How is “having all that clay around” gonna “make springs pop up everywhere”?!

[@SaltyFingers_SD]

When someone asks how I’m doing I say “swale” 😂

[@wudangmtn]

Very helpful info, as I have clay soil also. Thank you!

[@MachucaPermies]

What are some low tech methods to effectively rip the swales?

[@b_uppy]

Check out this, it is similar to what Mark Shepard uses: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h6rYc3uml9J4p9E

[@HFTLMate]

thank u!

[@downtoearth1950]

I would add chopped straw to each rip

[@przybyla420]

So for micro swales you would just broadfork or rent a lawn aerator?

[@karlb1695]

"What Permaculture Got Wrong - Dispelling Five Common Myths. off grid with curtis stone , and Richard perkins, ridgedale farm" these two gents created two beautiful videos on this subject, i myself interested in good feedback on their videos from permaculture movement. I'm planning on living in Lithuania, and I'm interested if swales makes sense, please could you make video with some good counter arguments, or there is none on what these farmers are saying ?

[@MhUser]

what should i do when i v got clay and only 200m2 of backyard that i want to convert into a food forest and i v got no place for wide swales or huge amount of trees; how do i improve water retention capabilites of a small area

[@shaam_arafath]

Simplest way for such a small space would be to work the soil with sand and organic matter , make sure to till the sand atleast a foot depth or you could plant pioneering fast growing trees and with the help of them incorporate other trees to reduce damages of root rot , if you have a slope it would be comfortable to direct all the water to a spot to a percolation pit . As far as I've done , these are the best ways that has worked for me

[@kirkbarley4999]

Shaam Arafath

[@shaam_arafath]

@@kirkbarley4999 you're right. That's why I said to work with both sand and organic matter mix depending on the porosity and texture of soil . A soil test will reveal everything .

[@kirkbarley4999]

Shaam Arafath Thanks, tracking, I am quick to comment on sand with clay👍

[@juliehorney995]

What does ripping look like, consist of?

[@anonanonymous8899]

Dragging a ripper implement or a subsoiler plow through the gronud, making deep notches through the soil, aka "rips" and thus ripping, ripper, etc. In clay soil it breaks the top layer of hardened clay that accumulates after a rain, reaching into the subsoil and allowing water to to sink into the soil better.

[@Awellsfarm]

Is gypsum good to put in the deep rip as well ?

[@alleghanyhighlandsresilien26]

Yeah, I have poorly draining clay soils and have to say ripping is the only thing needed. Swales don’t solve the issue of clay wet soils contrary to this video in a temperate climate.

[@TITAN0402]

Why are you talking about ripping up the land? Disturbing all the mycorhizle fungi connections which are potentially transporting vital nutrients..for plants that might require it?

[@b_uppy]

Check out Mark Shepard's methods regarding ripping. His method rips with minimal disturbance and maximum effectiveness.

[@khemrajnarine5636]

Please show us updates from Jordan

[@bereckdavid4810]

im beginning to understand

[@АлексейМахиня-е6д]

Is a chisel plow good for that?

[@deanpd3402]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/iWeolYShad1glaM

[@АлексейМахиня-е6д]

Thank you very much! I knew about this, but it is impossible here to hire this thing. Only option is to make it yourself if it`s really needed ((.

[@ahmadazizi1907]

what kind of trees are pioneer in the clay soil?

[@Kalpapada]

hmmm... alder?

[@ahmadazizi1907]

@@Kalpapada thank you mann

[@haleypowell9060]

eastern red cedar, though they don't like continually wet feet. exceptionally tough trees to the point that in OK and TX they are seen as pest trees as they will grow in inhospitable places like weeds but are highly flammable due to their high oil content. that said, their wood is great for carpentry as that same oil makes them resistant to rot and insects.

[@xyzsame4081]

Chicoree as a ground cover. it is a perennial and goes DEEP.

[@Nk-bc1qb]

Define “rip”

[@rickmartyn9170]

Sealed are a rich man's folly

[@DavidBelliveau]

Sounds like more of a chinampa candidate.

[@billybunter6943]

Jeff mate... I've flat ground / swales Dug 1.2m wide 2inc high end 4icn low end low wide mound, I did use old logs from a felled tree inside swales along with some iron bark long chunks to soak up more water... I feel ready to buy the planed 100 trees, I am getting date palms bananas as well as some clomping bamboo...as shade that grows pretty quickly but is long term.. I'm having trouble figuring out what are the best trees apart from those mentioned as my main shaders. Any 💡 ideas ? I've 4 established mangos 1 avo 8 Norfolk pines with a lot of wattles and other natives, I've planted figs nectarine, pear, olive, a nut tree the wife likes van never rememberits name...lol...... I've started planting under shade trees, already established arrow root an alike.. Next would be herbs to stop pests like the bloody orange lady bug destroyed some good veggies... The sun goes one way on the property but my swales have to go the opposite, Dose this matter that the sun will basically travel along my Swale, it's the way way land falls... so I want to know what are good Swale trees that will survive semi arid, either larg or medium size.... I've tones of mulch and 8 round bails of hay left everything has at least 1 foot of straw and mulch, this has taken taken year to protect the dirt so I feel I've done the ground work... I'd love to have an expert like your self here maybe one day could use it as an Australian desert forest example, which is what I'm trying to, at the many crys of " yr crazy" " it won't work" Oh yes it will Jeff said...

[@dmplus2k]

Can I put a small amount of old branches and logs in the swale mound? Not a hugel level amount, but a small pile?