Intro to Baseball: Force Outs

Taking a look at what force outs are. Also includes double plays and the fielder's choice.

[@thomasschmitt8827]

Thanks so much. I never could figure out why sometimes they try to tag people and sometimes they just stand on the base and catch the ball. Coz of your explanations that mystery is solved :D

[@matthewlee2789]

This is very informative for my baseball rules test tomorrow

[@young_bee]

Matthew Lee why do you have to take a test on that?

[@qylov_d2639]

Young Bee yeah I have to write a god damn phys Ed exam

[@qylov_d2639]

Young Bee I hate these sports lol

[@ZunarXJ59]

Excellent and clear explanation of when an out is forced or not.

[@MC-Minority]

Have a test on this in PE this helped so much thanks man.

[@Divadosaurus]

Thanks! My hypothesis after watching a very small amount of baseball was that players on first and second could be out by just throwing to the baseman with a foot on the base, but players running to third and home had to be tagged, but this never seemed right to me being so asymmetric. It's good to get a proper understanding.

[@JorgeMartinez-rp1gd]

Great video I learned a lot ! It has made me a better player now

[@qamarmoussa9340]

A clear explanation of force out, now I have an idea of how baseball is played.

[@codyridenour3079]

If you catch it when your pitcher and 1st base allready has a dude on it throw to first, it is slightly less distance that 2nd from where your most likely to catch the ball, thanks OnDeck super helpful!

[@AntonioCavicchioni]

Excellent explanation. Thanks!

[@USCBeastmode]

Damn this just help me out soooooo much! I got burned as an umpire in a youth league game with runners on first and second bal was hit fielder threw the ball to second an I called him out but the coaches came unglued because they told me it wasn't a force play damn it! I was right eff. Well studying makes perfect! Thanks for this explanation!

[@reiperx1064]

I'm not sure why I watched all of these as I already know the rules, but I'm still glad I did and gave likes to each one lol. I think I'll show these to my kids one day.

[@FloofyMinari]

Great explanation. I was trying to figure out why a player trying steal a base had to be tagged out instead of just touching the base the player was trying to steal.

[@Conner2000]

excellent video

[@katam47]

Well Presented...

[@bca8062]

Hi, everyone! I have a question If the first base has a runner, then the ball was hit by the batter and caught in the air by an infielder in the second base while he is also stepping on the base at that moment. Does it creates a fly out to the batter and force out to the runner at the same time? Thanks for your response, my English may not be good enough

[@TheOnDeckCircle]

The moment the fly ball is caught the batter is out, and there would no longer be a force out at second base. So the runner on first base would just stay on first base.

[@shawndabegley154]

I have a question regarding stealing bases. You have a runner on second base and a runner on third base (no runner on first base and no hit by batter). Both the second base runner and the third base runner decide to steal a base, the runner on second base runs to third base and the runner on third base runs to home plate. The catcher tags the base and then the runner after the runner was on base. Since third base is now occupied by the second base runner and the third base runner had no where to go but to home plate, did the catcher have to right to tag the base and not the runner to get the out?

[@fwtexas2392]

The 3rd base runner was forced to run to home plate, he had only one destination to go, all the catcher had to do was step on home plate

[@lalo17171717171717]

@@fwtexas2392 This is incorrect. The runner 'must' be tagged because if the runner is caught in a 'run down' he can return to 3rd base and the runner from 2nd that originally ran to 3rd base can then return to 2nd base.

[@danielresto6226]

no, because the runner who stole 3rd was not forced to go to 3rd, he chose to steal. if he wanted to, he could choose to run back to second, making the play at home NOT a force out which means the catcher has to tag the runner stealing home.

[@dino7864bv]

Please forgive my ignorance with the following question. Let's say there is a runner on 2nd base, but 1st base is empty. The batter hits a ground ball and runs to 1st, while the runner on 2nd chooses to run to 3rd. Am I correct in saying that the runner on 2nd is not under a force and therefore he cannot be simply thrown out and would have to be tagged?

[@TheOnDeckCircle]

You are exactly correct.

[@ThestrangelifeofVon]

Something that I found interesting was that if bases are loaded the you can tag any base to get an out

[@dropyghost]

when hitter get the ball into play and run 1st the infielder can get the ball and with ball in hand step into the base and force out the runner. Can you force out the runner if touching the base with any other part of the body instead of the foot? I see if you touch the base with the glove and the ball is there also count, But what if you have to streach out the base to catch the ball, can you touch the base with the nbn glove non ball hand instead of the foot? or if you jump and fell down on the base with your butt can also count as force out?

[@iNTERS22]

A question about the last example - so if the runner going towards the second base decides to turn around and return to the first base, he cannot be tagged out? The defense cannot get him out while he's running back to the first base?

[@TheOnDeckCircle]

If he is running back to first base he can be tagged out -- a runner can always be tagged out if he is not on a base -- but it is not a force out, so they must physically tag the runner, not the base.

[@xanderthibodeau8888]

This is actually so easy to understand

[@sevonvburns9283]

Something I found interesting is that you can't have two runners on the same base I also found it interesting that the defensive team can get a runner out by touching him with the ball or their glove while the ball is in it and as long as the runner is not on a base

[@rjvsmb]

There is a runner on first and the pitcher fields a ground ball. The pitcher throws to first, but the first baseman commits an error by dropping the ball. His foot is on the base, but the runner is rule safe because of the error. The first baseman quickly picks up the ball and throws to second. Is the play at second a force or a tag?

[@TheOnDeckCircle]

That would be a force play at second base. The force isn't removed until the runner behind him is actually put out.

[@tab5e53]

so what happens to the runner who turns back from 2nd base to 1st base, do they have to tag him out whilst he has the option to run and touch either 1st or 2nd base ti be safe? can he keep running around back and forth so long as he isn't tagged?

[@willoughbykrenzteinburg]

Yes, they would have to tag him out, and he could indeed run back and forth between the bases and is not out until he is tagged while not touching a base. This happens pretty frequently in baseball - it's called a "rundown" and you could youtube some videos of this happening. Most of the time, the runner is eventually tagged because the defense rotates many players (there is a pretty standard technique to getting a runner out) and the runner just runs out of steam, but every now and then, the runner makes it safely to a base. The plays are usually the more exciting ones in the game.

[@tab5e53]

so what happens if the bases are loaded and the batter at home plate gets hit with 4 balls and he has to walk to 1st base. Does it force a domino effect on the runners on all bases having to run to next base, causing a triple play?

[@willoughbykrenzteinburg]

A triple play is when the defense records three outs on one play. What you are talking about just scores a run for the offense. If the batter walks, the runner on first would get a free pass to second - which would result in a free pass to third for the runner who started on second - which would result in a free pass to home and a run scored for the team for the runner who started on third.

[@philippelting1079]

Hi, thanks for that great video! I got one question left: if the batter hits a ground ball and runs over to first base, arrives there before defense is able to create a force out there, he is safe. But if the runner after touching the base (safe!) ceases to touch the base maybe because he stumbled or sth like this, is the defense then allowed to tag the runner out? Or is this not allowed, because the runner is already "safe" and the possibility of the defense to get the runner out ends by the umpire calling the runner "safe"? I'm sorry for bad english. Can you help me?

[@TheOnDeckCircle]

It's a good question. On second or third base, a runner can be tagged out any time he is not touching the base. Players slide over second base and get tagged out a lot (not a force out on the base, the runner gets tagged with the ball). Players usually slide because it helps them not go past the base. First base is a bit different, because batters are allowed to "run through the base" which means they can go past it, and as long as they don't run toward second base they can return back to first base without getting tagged out. If they do take a step toward second base they can be tagged out though and it's up to the umpire to make sure they come right back to first base.

[@philippelting1079]

@@TheOnDeckCircle Wow ok I'm thankfull for that detailed answer! You helped me a lot to understand Baseball, thank you for that.

[@valerio1292]

So is it right to say that if a multiple defensive play is done CLOCKWISE (from home to 3rd, 2nd, 1st base) the defense can force out all the runners involved, and on the contrary (from 1st to 2nd, 3rd, home) defenders can only force out one runner and must tag all the others? It seems easier to think it like that

[@TheOnDeckCircle]

That's exactly right. A double play will almost always get the out at second base first, then the one at first. The rare triple play would start on third base, then second, then first. Although on the rare occasion that the bases are loaded, teams usually get the out at home plate first, but then throw to first base, rather than third base, for the second out, not sure why.

[@MrDanGrigoras]

@@TheOnDeckCircle This is usually for a bases loaded double play with no outs. You get the first out at home to prevent a run and then the second out at first because a batter is usually slower in reaching 1st base than a base runner that goes from 2nd to 3rd as soon as the ball is hit. He already has a lead on 2nd base (therefore is closer to 3rd base than 90') and has better momentum that the batter (the batter needs to see where the ball is hit, then start to run to 1st and picks up speed from a standstill, then throws his bat away, etc). The batter is almost always slower than the 2nd base runner.

[@B69ne]

Question.... If there is a runner on first and the runner is going to 2nd, and the 2nd baseman has the ball in their hand, can they tag the base with their glove to get the out? Or does the ball have to be in their glove? Is it like stepping on the base to force the out?

[@TheOnDeckCircle]

That's a good question. The ball must be in the glove when he tags him. Although, if he's holding the ball in his other hand he can still tag him with the ball. It just has to be whichever hand has the ball in it.

[@laucops198]

My question is probably stupid (and my English pretty bad). I am a runner on first base. The batter hits a fair but weak ground ball, that may cause a double play. Am I allowed to stay on first base, without even trying to run to second base ? Or will I be automatically forced out if the ball is thrown to the second baseman ?

[@TheOnDeckCircle]

If you are on first base there is a force out at second base, so yes you would just be making it easy for the defense to get you out at second.

[@laucops198]

@@TheOnDeckCircle Thanks !

[@philmccracken179]

Technically you could stay there if they tagged the runner out running to first base then the force out would be eliminated thus allowing you to stay. But that would rarely happen so my comment will probably just confuse you

[@philippelting1079]

Hey thanks again for that video! I got another question left: If there is a runner on 2nd and a runner on 3rd and the batter hits the ball in the outfield (uncaught). The batter now is forced to run to 1st. At same time the runner on 2nd decides to run over to 3rd, the runner on 3rd now has to run to homeplate. But... Is that a force play, thus that the runner starting on 3rd can be forced out on homeplate? Or isn't it a force play and the runner starting on 3rd can only be tagged out?

[@MrDanGrigoras]

1. Only the out at 1st base is a force out. 2. If the runner on 2nd decides to run over to 3rd, the runner on 3rd doesn't HAVE to run to home plate. He could just stay at 3rd, an the runner from 2nd can be tagged out, even if he reaches 3rd base. (there can only be a single base runner at a base at any time) Think of it like this: If you are a base runner on a base and ANY of the bases behind you are empty, then you cannot be forced to leave your base. If ALL the bases behind you are loaded, then you are force to leave your base and advance to the next one. I'll give you 3 examples. In all of them, you are a base runner who safely reached a base and the current batter hits a ground ball (not caught) Example 1: If you are on 3rd, and the 1st OR the 2nd base is empty, you can stay on 3rd base and not advance. If you are on 3rd and BOTH 2nd and 1st base are loaded, then you MUST advance to home plate. Example 2: If you are on 2nd and the 1st base is empty, you can stay on 2nd base and not advance. If you are on 2nd and 1st base is loaded, then you MUST advance to 3rd base. If you reach 3rd safely, you CAN go to home (but you are not forced to). Example 3: if you are on 1st base, then you MUST advance to 2nd base. If you reach 2nd safely, you CAN go to 3rd or home (but you are not forced to). Hope it's clearer now.

[@philippelting1079]

@@MrDanGrigoras Thank you for that great detailed answer! You helped me a lot!

[@takumif7056]

@@MrDanGrigorasI have a question. What if I am on 1st and the hitter hits a fly-ball that is then caught. Am I forced to go to second or can I stay at 1st? I know if I wanted to go to 2nd I’d have to tag up and I know the hitter is out, but if I don’t can I stay on 1st?

[@MrDanGrigoras]

@@takumif7056 As soon as the ball is caught the batter is out, so there is no one to force you out of 1st base. After the ball is caught you MUST tag 1st base. Then, after you've tagged it, you CAN try to go to 2nd base if you want, but you can stay at 1st as-well. Since 2nd base is "closer" to the outfield, there usually isn't time to tag 1st then advance to 2nd, so usually, you will tag and stay at 1st.

[@takumif7056]

What if there is a fly ball that is caught and I’m on 1st, do I have to run to second base? I know I’d have to tag up and I know the hitter is out but I’m unsure if I have to run to 2nd or I can stay on 1st.

[@TheOnDeckCircle]

You can stay on 1st base. As you said, you would have to tag up to go to 2nd if the ball is caught, but you would probably be thrown out at second base and tagged out before you got there, depending on where the fly ball was caught.

[@beez1th636]

That helped thank you.

[@RowneyPowers]

So a force out is when a batter is on first base and another batter hits the ball and he has to run to first base and is forced to run and someone throws to 2nd he's out. But what about tag outs? Let's say someone is on 2nd base and 1 and 3 are empty and the batter hits the ball. Since 2nd base is running to 3rd do you have to tag them with a ball or can it still be a force out?

[@gbeaudette]

It has to be a tag. If there's no one on the previous base "forcing" him to run to the next, he doesn't have to run if he doesn't want to.

[@RowneyPowers]

Thank you I appreciate it :)

[@blakesnipe5347]

If the runner is running by choice, he must be tagged to be put out. If the runner is running because he has no choice, then it is a force out and you can simply tag the base he is trying to reach. It is important to understand that just because there is a runner running toward the base you are on doesn't mean you are forced to advance - only if that runner running toward your base is also being forced. For example, suppose you are on third base. There is another runner on second base, but first base is empty. The batter hit a grounder to the second baseman and the runner from second starts running toward third. You are not being forced to run home at that point because the runner from second is running by CHOICE; not force. You are only forced to run if every base before yours is occupied - and in turn, force outs are only possible when a runner is being forced to run. If the runner is running by choice, then he must be tagged out.

[@KINGCONN990411]

OK, bases loaded,no outs,ground ball hit to 3rd. The runner on 3rd does not run but holds the bag,he is tagged while still on the bag before the fielder removes the force by stepping on 3rd.Is the runner out even though he is on the bag or is he safe until the trail runner advances to 3rd as obviously two players can not occupy the same base ?

[@fireleopard7380]

As the bases are loaded, once the ground ball is hit, the runner on 3rd is no longer safe even if he holds the bag, because the previous runners "force" him to advance. Hence he is out if tagged even if he is on the base. However, if the 3rd baseman decides to step on the base first, the runner on 2nd is "forced out". At this moment, the "force" situation ended and the runner on 3rd is safe again, so he cannot be tagged out if he is on base.

[@philmccracken179]

I’ve loved baseball for 45 years, know all the rules and never considered the situation you presented. I actually didn’t know the answer 😁 if the guy on third was tagged out on the third base in a situation where he is forced to run home. Bravo! Good question

[@vanessakim8716]

I learned that the defensive team can put a runner out by tagging/ touching him with the ball or their glove while the balls in it and as long as the runner is not on a base.

[@satysan78]

I am confused. Batter hits to first base. Can he decide not to run and stay at base? Is he he "forced" to run because he hit it to the first base infield?

[@willoughbykrenzteinburg]

I know you asked this a long time ago, but no. The batter must run. I mean technically, he doesn't HAVE to run, but no matter what - if someone in possession of the ball touches first base before the batter gets there, the batter is out. Unlike cricket, the batter cannot elect to not run and negate the play.

[@ViniZiello]

I'm new to baseball and confused about something. As I'm playing MLB The Show 2020 now this weird out happens to me a lot: All bases are loaded I hit a ground ball towards the shortstop. Every base runner starts to run. Shortstop throws ball to the first base and force out the batter (me). All runners are out ... HOW COME? I really don't get that since the ball was only thrown once towards the first base. Lost a lot opportunities bto score one or two runs because of this. Can someone explain if this is a rule or a game glitch?

[@MrDanGrigoras]

Probably because that play happened when they were 2 outs already in the inning. It they get the 3rd out by a force out then no runs are scored in that play. If they get the 3rd out on a non forcing play, then runs scored before the tag is applied do count.

[@jackbotman]

So, you only get one forced out per play?

[@TheOnDeckCircle]

No, you could get one, two, or three, you just have to get them in the correct order. So if there are runners on first and second base, you need to tag third base first, then second, then first for all three.

[@peterceleste5958]

Where can I get a software program like this with the movable defenders and runners???

[@TheOnDeckCircle]

It's tough to find one. This is done in PowerPoint, but it's not always easy to get things to cooperate.

[@johnjames9359]

Can someone help me understand the idea of jumping over or colliding with the catcher while running from 3rd to home? If the catcher has the ball wouldn’t that be a forced out? Iv seen a lot of runners leap over the catch, touch home plate and be safe or smash into the catcher, touch home plate and be safe.

[@willoughbykrenzteinburg]

A "force" is when the runner on base is REQUIRED to run because all bases behind him are occupied and the ball is put into play. If there is just a runner on first base, and the batter hits a bounding ball (that means a ball that hits the ground before it is caught), the runner on first base is "forced" to advance to second base because the batter is running to first - thus "forcing" the runner on first to advance to second base. Any runner that is being "forced" to run can be put out by simply touching the base they are attempting to reach while in possession of the ball. Now suppose there are runners on first AND second base. Same scenario - the batter hits a bounding ball - "forcing" the runner from first to second base. The runner on second base is also "forced" to run to third base because everyone behind him is being "forced" to run. By the same logic as the first example, the runner from second can be put out if a player in possession of the ball simply touches third base before the runner from second reaches. Now, suppose there is just a runner on second base - no other runners. If the batter hits a bounding ball, there is no runner on first "forced" to second base - ergo, there is no requirement of the runner on second to advance to third base. He *_CAN_* run to third base, but he is not required to. If he is not REQUIRED (AKA "FORCED") to run to third base, but chooses to advance anyway, the defense cannot simply step on third base with the ball. That runner must be TAGGED in order to be put out. The only time the defense can simply step on a base with the ball is when the runner attempting that base is being FORCED to run. Simply put, if all the bases BEHIND the runner are occupied and the batter hits a bounding ball, that runner is "forced" to run. If it's a force, you can simply step on the base he is trying to reach with the ball in your possession. If the runner is simply CHOOSING to run and not REQUIRED to, he must be tagged to be put out. So in your scenario - where the runner tries to dive over the catcher, or collide with the catcher - that means the runner from third was not being "forced" to run home, but CHOSE to - because they thought they could make it. In this scenario, the runner must be TAGGED to be out. The runner is trying to avoid the tag - OR - hit the catcher so hard that the ball falls out of his glove which negates the tag out. If the bases were loaded - meaning there were runners on first, second, and third base - and the batter hits a bounding ball. The batter, running to first "forces the runner from first to advance to second - who in turn "forces" the runner from second to advance to third - who in turn "forces" the runner from third to advance to home - then all the catcher has to do is step on home plate with the ball in their possession to get the runner from third out. IF however - suppose there was only a runner on third base. No other runners. The batter hits a bounding ball, and the runner from third - while not REQUIRED to run home - decides to attempt to run home anyway. The catcher would then be required to TAG the runner before they reach home - and this is the sort of play you are talking about. This isn't a "force" out.

[@roccopagliari8828]

if the bases are loaded could I technically get a triple play if its hit in the infield throw to home 3rd and 2nd.

[@willoughbykrenzteinburg]

Yep, but this would probably not be the best way to do it. On a triple play, the third out is usually at first. Simply because you probably won't have time to get all those outs. Remember, the runner coming from first to second had a lead off first, and started running the moment the ball was hit on the ground, so by the time the ball is thrown home.....then to third, that runner from first is likely already on second. However, the batter - who will take a moment to even start running, and is starting from the full 90 feet away (farther if he is right handed) might not be at first yet, so you would go home first (this is the smart play - because even if you don't get the triple play, you will stop a run from scoring), then to second OR third, THEN to first. Most of the time, there isn't even time for that, so what usually happens is the ball is thrown home (to prevent the run), then on to first for a double play. You would end up with two outs and runners on second and third - first base open. Depending on the situation, you might intentionally walk the next batter to load the bases back up. This seems like a crazy thing to do, but you only need one more out, and now you've created another situation where there are forces everywhere. If the ball is hit on the ground, you can get an out by stepping on any base, and if it turns out to be a hit, two runs were going to score anyway. That runner on first probably won't score, and if it's a close game late - like say you're up by 1 run and its the bottom of the 9th. A hit was going to win the game for the other team anyway. Might as well load the bases and created forces at all of them again. Otherwise, your only "easy" out is at first whereas if you load them up, and the ball is hit sharply to the third baseman, all he has to do is step on third and the inning is over; you win.

[@philmccracken179]

Yes just KZbin “triple plays”. They are rare, but possible

[@hayloftbentley4942]

Thanks so munch this helped a lot

[@CaptChrispy]

What about 'neighborhood play'?

[@philmccracken179]

That doesn’t exist anymore with replay

[@sebastiangagnon1838]

what is the bull pen?

[@gbeaudette]

Sebastian Gagnon The bullpen is where the relief (or sustitution) pitchers sit during the game and where they warm up before coming in. The bullpens are usually either in foul territory or past the outfield fence.

[@sebastiangagnon1838]

oh cool, thanks man.

[@1Deejay7]

It's where they put the bulls in. They release the bulls when there is 3 consecutive touch downs. Lol

[@matbur81]

@@1Deejay7 also technically known as a powerplay

[@harrisonlong644]

do you have to run if you hit the ball?

[@willd1790]

Technically no, but there's really no point in not doing it since you're under a force out so you can't stay safe at home and would just get tagged out immediately. You will very often see batters half-ass the run to first if they know they aren't going to make it, but you never know if you'll actually be fast enough or if the defense will screw up, so you may as well give it a shot.

[@hrkitchansolution8080]

Good

[@maiquelrae]

one thing i found interesting is that double plays happen quickly and can easily be ruined.

[@carlav1306]

Hang on a minute! I thought you said you can just tag the 1st base and not any other base in another video and now you say you can tag the 2nd base and then tag the 1st I’m confused !

[@philmccracken179]

You can tag the base to get an out, if the runner running to thebase is being “forced” to run. So if there is a runner on first, the defense could just throw to second base and tag the base because the runner is being forced to run to second by the batter who’s running to first

[@Nathan-gi9mm]

I’m still confused about runs on third outs. For example the runner on third base makes it hoke and then the hitter gets out from the first baseman

[@philmccracken179]

The run wouldn’t count because the batter running to first is a force out. This would occur for any force out at any base not just first. But if the guy getting out wasn’t a force out, then the runner coming home from third would count as a run if reached safely before the third out was tagged out

[@Nathan-gi9mm]

@@philmccracken179 Okay I think I’m getting it now. Just need to watch his force outs video again. Thank you.

[@TheOnDeckCircle]

Phil is right about force plays, the run would not count. However, for a third out, if it's NOT a force out and a player is getting tagged out, then it's literally whichever happens first: Runner touches home plate, THEN the other runner is tagged out? Run counts. If the runner is tagged out right before the other runner steps on home plate, it would not count.

[@jonting7847]

What if runner on third and hitter hits so far to outfield that he assumes it would be caught and doesn’t run. Then fielder fails to catch and runner on third get going, gets to home BEFORE the ball is thrown to the first baseman for the force out of hitter? Does the run count ?

[@philmccracken179]

@@jonting7847 that wouldn’t happen unless the batter broke his leg or something because he’d always be able to reach first on a fly ball to the outfield. But if for some reason your scenario happened, the run wouldn’t count because it was a force out at first

[@sadwhitesoxfan17]

Is a groundout and force out same.

[@TheOnDeckCircle]

There can be a force out without a ground out (see video on "Tagging Up") but 98% of the time, yes, a ground out will be a force out.

[@hmmer3471]

Last case will become like bit rugby

[@nickcrepin3867]

One odd fact, if a runner is forced to run, and they are tagged out instead, the out is considered a force out. The only time it will come up for debate is when a runner scores before a player is tagged for a *force out*. The run does not count.

[@willoughbykrenzteinburg]

It's not really that odd of a fact if you view from the perspective of the runner. Whether or not a runner is out because the base he was being forced to was touched or he was tagged is pretty much irrelevant. If the runner who was put out was being forced to run, it is a force out.

[@marydunn207]

An fascinating discussion is worth comment. I feel that you need to write extra on this matter, it might not be a taboo topic however generally persons are not sufficient to talk on such topics. To the next. Chee

[@willoughbykrenzteinburg]

There is NEVER a force at first. There is nothing "forcing" the batter to run to first. He is just required to inherently. For example, in the official rules - a run that is scored on the same play that the third out is made via a force out OR the batter-runner being put out before reaching first, the run does not count. If the batter-runner being put out before reaching first and a "force" were the same thing, they would have just said force - and not specifically address the batter-runner being put out before reaching first. They would just call that a force as well.

[@keondn]

Willoughby Krenzteinburg there is always a force at first!!! whats the purpose of batting then. Batting initiates PLAY! if a batter hits and runs straight to the dugout and the base it touched by the defender with the ball its a forced out. the batter/runner does not determine it an out is a force.

[@willoughbykrenzteinburg]

Keon Nelson There is no force at first. Did you not comprehend what I wrote? Here, let's try it this way. Here is the definition of "FORCE PLAY" from the Major League Baseball Official Baseball Rules : "A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner." The batter never "occupied" home, so he is not losing his right to occupy it. There is no force at first. You can put out the batter by either tagging him or first base before he touches first base, but it is not a force play. There is no force at first. Once again - READ THIS CAREFULLY. I explained this in my original comment, but apparently you either didn't read it or you didn't understand it. I hope it's the former because it is incredibly easy to understand. OK. Here we go. Pay attention. A run which scores on the same play in which the third out is a force out OR _the batter-runner being put out before reaching first base_ is disallowed. This is a rule in baseball. Let that sink in for a second. A force out OR the batter-runner is put out before reaching first. If putting the batter-runner out before reaching first base were a force out, then they would have just said force out. How are you not getting this?

[@keondn]

Willoughby Krenzteinburg some times its best to over think things... for example: if a runner is on first and the ball is hit-a grounder in the infield it is possible and likely the runner on first will be out assuming he is tagged or the BASE is touched if the infielder does not tag the runner or touch the base the PRESUMMED force out does not take place. in other words we both make valid points but my point is based on the advancement of the game. if the runner hits a grounder, it is fielded and thrown to first the runner is out without a tag hence it is a force out. if this were not true the player could only be out by a tag :)

[@keondn]

Keon Nelson also the hitter putting the ball into play forces him to run because if he doesn't he will be out if the ball gets to first before he does

[@willoughbykrenzteinburg]

Keon Nelson We all know that throwing to first before the batter-runner gets there is an out. Just because tagging a base gets the runner out does NOT make it a force play. Touching first to retire the batter is NOT a force play. There is no argument here. If there is a runner second base, and he steals third, but the ball is a line drive to the shortstop. All the defense needs to do to retire that runner is touch second base before he can get back. They don't have to tag him. This is not a force out. Just because simply tagging a base will retire a runner DOES NOT MEAN that it is a force play. I can't believe this needs further explanation. A force play is retiring a runner who is being forced to vacate his base due to a following runner being entitled to his base. Period. The batter is not on "home". He is not vacating home. He is the first runner in the chain that determines who is and who is not being forced. The FIRST ONE IN THE CHAIN. Therefore, he CANNOT be forced. There is no runner being forced home that would required the batter to vacate a base which he never occupied. Therefore, THERE IS NO FORCE AT FIRST. Perhaps your confusion comes from the fact that a runner ON FIRST is always forced to second when the batter becomes a runner. The runner ON FIRST. Not the play AT FIRST. The force play for the runner ON FIRST is AT SECOND.

[@zakriyasimone9556]

Something I found interesting is that you can't have two runners on the same base.

[@alanhess9306]

If you read the definition of a force out, you will see there is never a force out at first base. Also note, a runner being tagged can also be a force play

[@hmmer3471]

Last case will become like bit rugby