The Ideological Roots of Wokeness, with Helen Pluckrose and Helen Joyce

[@MysticJabulon]

It *was* a good discussion. I like how Pluckrose can be one of the toughest critics of the madness, and still manage to see the good intentions that lead many people to support it. That's the only way those folks can ever be won over.

[@bitterlyhonest2307]

Share her book with people around you. Its a necessary read in the present world.

[@willmercury]

I wholeheartedly appreciate your sentiment; however, I'm not entirely persuaded that everyone has the best intentions with regards to CRT and CSJ. Some of them seem clearly motivated by ressentiment and malice. I remain undecided as to whether we should attempt to win them over or simply throw them away. Then again, I'm cynical myself. Helen is brave and brilliant. Both of them are.

[@tubester4567]

Wokeness started with feminism and feminist gender theory, many post second wave feminists were also lesbians. LGBT adopted the ideology, language and strategy of feminists, to normalize homosexuality and more recently transgender ideology. Critical race theory is also derived from feminism with similar language and strategies.. Thats what feminist intersectionality is, a framework where other groups in society can claim to be a victim of oppression. The feminists kind of franchized their ideology so other groups like LGBT and minorities could use it.. Feminists and LGBT were the biggest allies, until trans people started demanding access to women's spaces. Now there is a civil war of the left between pro-trans feminists and anti-trans feminists, and LGB vs LGBT. At least the feminists are waking up to where this leads, even if they dont take responsibility for it.

[@DEWwords]

@@tubester4567 , yes. Back then it was Dworkin and then Dworkin-MacKinnon later on during the anti-speech anti-sex porn wars. And, then...Butler...

[@KimPhilby203]

They Can't be won over....It's an unmovable rigid mindset...

[@Sammyfaysanchez]

I love and respect Helen Pluckrose so much. She's the intelligent, logical voice we need. We need to listen to her!!!

[@dmd7472]

Oh shut up

[@cameroncameron2826]

Why ? - at no point did she mention that new atheism designed the first wave of woke.

[@GeeeAus]

@@cameroncameron2826 Because she’s not a new atheist she’s a classical atheist.

[@Syzyro]

Wonderful conversation. Much love from Denmark. A quote from Sowell comes to mind, which I hope to instil in my daughter as she grows up. It goes something like: “Please take to heart the lesson of history, and what happens when you vote on the basis of rhetoric and symbolism. It doesn’t matter how smart you are, unless you stop and think.”

[@yesnomaybeso3220]

W

[@agaperion]

IMO, Helen Pluckrose is the world's preeminent expert on this topic. I certainly haven't heard a better analysis from anybody else.

[@Teasehirt]

I agree

[@tuliomorey]

Have you heard of Caherine Liu's insights on this? I strongly recommend looking for her work, hoping that the fact of her scientific standpoint won't be conflictive or "scary".

[@rorynolan4426]

jane clare jones is also great

[@Teasehirt]

@@rorynolan4426 She appears to speak of more ideology - Taken me 12 months to reach the point I am at now. I am sure people just want a normal world without the new terminology, theories, double talk, identity politics, critical theory, wokism. Eeeeeeesh.

[@Teasehirt]

@Davey Dodkins I watched ... "Is Critical Race Theory compatible with Christianity? Neil Shenvi & Rasool Berry" He comes across as a trojan-horse pointing out the discrepancies between supremacy, religion and race. In many areas he reinforces CRT.

[@pythonjava6228]

I actually agree with Helen Joyce's perspective. I'm from the "young" generation but I think people yell these mantras in part because they don't have a strong sense of self. There is a very strong need in certain spaces to have your identity validated by outside forces

[@lennymclean.]

This is a great point! When you are still grappling with coming to terms with who you are and deciding to be who you are, it's easy to get caught up in political agendas, because they give people something - an idea, a statement, an ideology - to rally around and that also creates a sense of group identity. I'm firmly of the belief that a person finds out who they are by doing things, particularly things which involve social interactions. Some people seem to think that finding out who you are is something that you think about and decide based on your own viewpoint of your self and your past, but as we know, people are very unreliable narratives of their own lives and how a person who doesn't really know themselves is able to give any kind of accurate view of themselves is somewhat proposterous. If you really want to know about yourself, ask all your friends to tell you and be prepared to find out some things you weren't expecting. It helps if you have strong, trusting and honest relationships with your friends, mind.

[@DrCruel]

People joined in with the Bolsheviks and National Socialists because it was personally advantageous to do so. If you have mediocre intellectual skills, are generally lazy and thick but still want to be rich and successful, joining with the Left fascists in some up and coming socialist scheme is the easiest route to the high life. If intimidating and beating the rest of the public into compliance works, you can be sure that's what the Left fascists will do.

[@-haclong2366]

That's the same that we had with religion only one generation before. Young people are always impressionable and not as "rebellious" as many make them out to be, I'd say that the Baby Boomers were the only actually rebellious generation and after they got power they invented proto-Wokeness which evolved into the non-sense we have now. But this issue isn't blamed on one generation, it's something that is created by merging a lot of bad ideas from many schools.

[@richardfinlayson1524]

@@-haclong2366 really, most baby boomers seem very conservative to me, , I guess being rebellious is different to being politically aware.

[@philodonoghue3062]

Read Eberstadt Primal Scream - How the sexual revolution created identity politics. A book dedicated to the premise you posit

[@merlepatterson]

Helen Pluckrose is a hero.

[@michaelc.1710]

I love how articulately and objectively she puts it. Most people I think struggle to find the same clarity. I’m in my early thirties and politically liberal. I’ve had a growing discomfort with identity politics for a number of years but it wasn’t until I heard Helen and James Lindsay speak about this subject that I could put my finger on what my issues were exactly. Although I still don’t think I could articulate them well, which is going to be a problem the more this conversation starts to get aired more publicly

[@Kate0603]

@@michaelc.1710 Politically liberal in the classic sense? As a political scientist, I find that most people who use that adjective/noun don’t actually know what it means. A liberal believes in small government and minimal interference. Nonetheless, I know what you mean. I used to be more centre-left, but the last 15 years have made me move to the centre-right, as I was and am tremendously bothered by what I see as a way to turn back the clock -away from logic and reason. The values of the Enlightenment are at risk and under fire.

[@michaelc.1710]

@@Kate0603 yes, as in the ‘On Liberty’ by John Stuart Mill sense. I live in the UK and the term ‘liberal’ was much more clear here until probably about 10-15 years ago when the more muddy US usage slipped in.

[@TheTrenchesYT]

@@Kate0603 What might you say to someone who sees postmodernism as a [predictable or inevitable] result of the Enlightenment?

[@moritzkohler9520]

Like someone I think on Twitter said "We will win, because our side has the best Helens" ❤

[@jumblyman]

My two favourite public intellectual Helens. Wonderful.

[@just_another32]

Very thankful for HP and JL for all the work they've done!

[@johnnywatkins]

I couldn’t agree more

[@just_another32]

@@johnnywatkins aren't you the comment for the algorithm chap? Keep up the good work if so :)

[@nicholar1236]

When I moved to Canada 1990 in B.C. I felt I could not express myself because the training in being politically correct seemed to cripple and make people frightened to admit to their thought.... By this I mean one was not allow to have any opinion on what one observed. When I shared my observations, people got upset and thought I was judging, I had to explain I was just sharing an observation of an action, a group, of a difference. Personally I think it is great we as different genders, ethnic group, etc have uniqueness. Now looking at what has happened in b.c. Canada over the last 3 years, my observation is that the training of extreme political correctness, being 'nice', not being able to truly share thoughts with each other, made them powerless, fearful, obedient easy to manipulate, etc. They were already brainwashed, sadly, and it became a nightmare for the free thinkers and still is.

[@MarthaAnthony]

Yep this rounding up of the free thinkers, especially by brainwashed university students, and the ban of free speech, is the hallmark of ark times in any nation and a portend of worse to come. Bill Maher had an interesting piece on this.

[@englishincontext4025]

Pluckrose's book (with James Lindsay) 'Cynical Theories', is absolutely terrific and demonstrates the gamut of interlocking 'theories' which make up the quackery of post-modernism. I also thoroughly enjoyed Joyce's book 'Trans' which clarified a lot of issues for me about transgenderism. Both worth spending your money on.

[@omnpresentevidence]

Really brilliant woman who is not going to become pigeonholed by anyone because her criticism is not based on wanting to stop progressive change towards a fairer world but to rightly point out that the way that post modernism goes about it is not only ineffective but giving ammunition to the extreme right and weakening any liberal left solidarity.

[@teresawilliamson9377]

Fairer world, unwoke= disaster,continuation of white privilege! 🤮

[@annarboriter]

"This is not about Marxism. You can't blame him for this." I am grateful to hear some attempt at separating the commonplace, varied uses of the term, Marxism, from a man who died in 1883

[@DieFlabbergast]

The date of his death is irrelevant: his books are still on the shelves, and more importantly, generations of left-leaning people have imbibed his theories. Of course he cannot be said to be "to blame" for the ways in which his theories have been interpreted. Wokeism is certainly derived in part, but not in the whole, from Marxism.

[@WhizzingFish12]

It's more about the Marxist framework of identity groups competing over power . In his time, it was economic classes; now its along race, gender, etc. But the model is classically Marxist.

[@TheMoonatDawn]

I had never heard of Helen Pluckrose before seeing this (I watched because I'm familiar with Helen Joyce), but wow, I am so impressed by her. This was such a good discussion I think I'll look into her stuff more. Thanks for the video.

[@AcmeRacing]

I've just finished Cynical Theories. I came to this from the Sokal Squared hoax, which was both important and wickedly funny.

[@RabbitsaysJanusSaves1975]

Helen Pluckrose is wonderful to listen to. Whenever I hear her speak on social justice or post modernism etc. I actually can understand these complicated subjects. She is a great speaker and scholar. I wish she did more public lectures. Her work is fantastic.

[@ZimbaZumba]

Pluckrose as usual was simply awesome. I found an eerie affinity to the way Joyce thought and expressed herself. I found out why, large chunks of our professional backgrounds and interests are identical. Mathematics clearly affects the way you think. We need more people from the sciences to contribute to the social debate in an informed way.

[@Tadesan]

Science isn't sexy.

[@rachelwolf1208]

Loved this discussion! Helen is one smart cookie! One of these ladies does need to change the battery in their smoke detector, I do believe. Helen is such a great listen, no matter which youtube, I feel like we have been Starving for smart people who are not 'Academic P/C', will Speak truth, unpopular truth. We need to hear unpopular truths, Society is seriously suffering from a lack of hearing them.

[@JohnThomas]

Helen Pluckrose is so sensible! The voice of reason!

[@girlking7444]

Wow. As a Black gay woman in America this is very enlightening. How do we change the narrative...or the language as it were....in a country where the language of politics is power? Where the political agenda is not to unite people through the celebration of there differences, but to equalize or normalize people through diversity. Can diversity really be celebrated and unify a nation, or is the very celebration or promotion of diversity what ultimately will keep us divided?

[@mattd8725]

National values which unite people do not have to be the same thing. Like, in the UK people are often united by a national pride in the NHS. While in the USA people are not so proud of their healthcare system but are extremely proud of their military might. Well, both the UK and US are both proud of their armed forces. We can say that right wing nationalism is different to left wing nationalism on these issues, along with diversity. But there is no reason a left wing nationalist voter would not be proud of what they saw as an honourable and powerful military or why a right wing nationalist would not be proud of an "efficient and orderly" healthcare system.

[@thomasgt9933]

Woa, you summed that up really nicely!

[@racheldawn65]

The political diversity movement isn't about real diversity, which includes diversity of ideas. Its about race. Its a materialist movement teaching that our physicality is what defines us, which is an incredibly oppressive belief system. And screaming at the white population that they are all racist is how you incite racism and hate - this is the political agenda. And it is being used to justify totalitarianism and the abject destruction of freedom of speech, and its being used to incite a civil war.

[@richardkuehn7015]

Drop the “ as a black gay woman “ bit. Nobody cares.

[@girlking7444]

@@richardkuehn7015 that's funny seems that YOU are the only one who doesn't care. And guess what NOBODY cares that someone like you doesn't care.

[@haroldgodwinson9822]

What an excellent discussion between two great minds. Very insightful. Keep up the good work!

[@Chris-hq7nl]

Thank you. Helen is a brilliant woman and I am glad to see her getting the chance to speak.

[@merrimcarthur7198]

Thank you so much for your insight at about 29:16 regarding what is said to poor, white people (especially men) regarding "well, if you'd been black it would have been so much worse" without acknowledging the plight of said white person. That is exactly what has been happening to my son. And yes, it drove him to the "conservative right". I now see so many white men who feel abandoned, rejected, vilified. So, they've decided to wear their vilification as a sort of badge of honour. This discussion has been very eye opening for me. Thank you.

[@symoneprice798]

yeah but here's the thing.......im also one of those people switching to the right, but imagine how black people have felt knowing that they never have a political party. Im doing this on purpose to show you there is some legitimacy to what is said. Black people have known since after reconstruction that we don't actually have a political party. Picking the dems for a lot of black people was just the lesser of two evils. Its like that idea of public defenders vs the prosecutor. They are all friends, they all work together, how hard are they really going to oppose each other. Black people have never truly felt like they have a political home. The fact that many Americans are just now feeling this is honestly kind of astonishing to me bcuz I know TOO many people, specifically minorities, who this has been the default for. 2 things: 1) I know im using a lot of generalizations here but for the sake of staying on topic let's not pick each other apart about it. 2) I think the bigger conversation here has to do with race baiting the entire population (especially blacks) and making poor and average whites and poor and average blacks think they have nothing in common and are on differing ends of the political spectrum which just is not true. It's always been elites vs poor (blacks have just made up a good portion of the poorm(per capita) for a long while).

[@victorfernandes7955]

You smashed it ladies. Without the intention to sound patronising, well done!

[@Shub99]

A very revealing discussion .. for most people postmodernism emerged, thrived and they didn't notice but lived the change from being politically correct to its new form of wokeness .. very timely discussion .. but most of this contest will escape most people but they will live the outcomes ..

[@silververnallbells191]

Woke is a decades old term from the black civil rights movement. "Wokeness"?? This is just white people discovering twerking & saying they invented it.

[@Shub99]

@@silververnallbells191 Ah okay ..thank you for the correction.

[@jane.elliot5782]

@@silververnallbells191 yes, that's the origin, and the next step the lexicon took was the use of that term sarcastically

[@Jootie_de_Kop]

Great footage. Keep up the good work! Thanks for standing up against the Woke-madness. I admire your courage.

[@Anita1984isuponus]

The Helens rock! Thank you ladies, so insightful xx

[@Overonator]

Props to IQ Squared for even approaching this topic. I didn't think you guys would ever have anyone who is skeptical of the post modernist meta narratives.

[@mholm1818]

postmodernism IS the skepticism of meta-narratives. that is the actual definition which it applies to itself. smh...

[@Overonator]

@@mholm1818 You are right, I learned that postmodermism is skepticsim of meta narratives.

[@sashan4722]

HP: "I still don't think this can last for long because it is too counterintuitive." That would make perfect sense had we not thousands of years of religious authoritarianism to reference, and the fact that the wokists just happen to be authoritarian ideologues who not only teach our children and the students who will teach our children, but as HP stated, are endorsed by industry and government. "He alone, who owns the youth, gains the future." - A man I'd rather not reference who is nonetheless incredibly qualified to speak of such things.

[@SM7LArchitecture]

Sounds like a classic Hitler quote 😝

[@brittanydawn2633]

Dictators and extremists, from Mao to Hitler to ISIS, have found that corrupting young and impressionable minds an effective means of consolidating power.

[@Tadesan]

It was jesus.

[@rathelmmc3194]

Well since this whole thing has like McCarthyism or Salem Witch Trials kind of vibe I'd wager that it will eventually subside. One day the wrong person gets called out and the whole thing collapses.

[@ffffnnnnul2125]

"Thousands of years of religious authoritarianism" how very postmodern of you 😂

[@surfinterf7381]

Two intelligent and articulate women. Excellent.

[@d-pooly79]

Fantastically refreshing and respectful rational discussion, in a world where it seems to be forgotten and avoided, BRAVO!

[@metgirl5429]

Year down the track Thank you Helen Are we awake yet🕊

[@Survivethejive]

"diversity is our greatest strength" they repeat in schools, in the media and even on coins now. Does that seem like they are secure?

[@xy-fj2wk]

Yeah, the more incompatible principles we have, the better our teamwork. LOL.

[@omnpresentevidence]

Is she arguing against diversity ? I feel she is arguing for an inclusive society but is pointing out that the approaches she discusses are counter productive. She makes it clear that she is a supporter of civil rights but is very opposed to the idea that everyone should be made identify and root out there own prejudices,those prejudices being defined by these academics.

[@republitarian484]

@@omnpresentevidence . . .it sounds like she's arguing for diversity but realizes that people are tribal. Where I think she, and others, get it wrong is that you can be tribal and exclusive of others and still be a supporter of civil rights; the Constitution. Another problem is the cultural marxists seem to be fine with tribalism for "minorities" but not for white people "who are actually the minority from a global perspective". And the largest problem may just be that tribalism will trump multiculturalism due to nature over political will. Maybe the different races are actually different and those differences become amplified when larger groups interact. And as a majority become less of a majority the growing minority begins to exert their will, influence, etc. on the historical majority that will eventually change the country to an entirely different society. And then you have to ask yourself if mass immigration was not purposely done for this exact reason.

[@republitarian484]

@@omnpresentevidence . . . the more I listen to her the more I hear contradictory statements and ideas.

[@jibicusmaximus4827]

And So false equivellace, those books actually work if you do it.

[@mortalkomment8028]

Absolutely outstanding discussion of wokeism by those two remarkable women! Thank you so much for doing this!

[@Pihasanddunes1]

My mind wishes to thank you both for such an intelligent discussion, that doesn't shirk from difficult terms and psychosocial processes but looks to contextualize and break them down.

[@daveg5857]

Love this discussion. Pluckrose is so insightful. I must read this book.

[@tomsalken8925]

I thought I could possibly mock leftists on your channel, but I was wrong. You're honest. It's refreshing. Thank you

[@m.e.1367]

Blurring categories to appease approximately 3% of the population seems insane to me. Blocking puberty in children and teens through HRT I regard as wholly pernicious. I believe the pushback against all of that is very justified. I can't understand why anyone need feel that their self-perception needs to be acknowledged and applauded by anyone else. We all have a self-perception and most of us can go along in the world without everyone cheering us on for our particular one. And if it stopped there, that would be awful enough. But that one can be punished (or people are trying to make that a punishable offense) for NOT affirming someone's self-perception of gender is beyond, beyond horrid. The sensible approach will inevitably win out, but unfortunately, not without insistence. Which is why I will never identify as a Leftist ever again.

[@andthereisntone3454]

A good woman. Thanks.

[@johnzx14rk94]

Mrs. Pluckrose is absolutely Brilliant. Thank You Great Women, you both are deep thinkers. Could you touch on a lot deeper on removal of ones money from what one wants. To expose is equal to a monetary outcome. Great Great video.

[@hovercraft-x9j]

Helen Pluckrose is superb, but above all she's fair. Her conclusions are arrived at with great care. Such an important voice in today's splintering world.

[@DailyCorvid]

Helens!! You misogynists!! REEEE!! Lol. Brilliant talking points and communicated them like a couple of seasoned professionals. Honestly we need more young people to really listen to this and take heart the vital messages.

[@wenkeadam362]

Hello, Helen squared! I want to thank both of you for sharing this enjoyable and enlightening discussion. I live in South America and haven't been in touch with academia for a long time now. I have been more and more alarmed in later years reading about all these strange ideas emanating from the US that Americans seem to be so polarized about. My first reaction was that well, we know that gringos are crazy, so just let them do their thing among themselves... But then I started to see that it became contagious and was trickling down here too! And then I really started to worry. I am so glad that I stumbled upon this video and had the luxury of getting a concentrated summary of the whole thing in a nutshell. I'm not sure whether Foucault and Derrida would turn in their graves if they could see the debacle or if they would have a good laugh and say to each other "See? We really fooled them, the whole bunch of them!". But I am quite sure that there are some characters in the shadows who are very happy that Americans spend their time and neurons on this stuff and have completely forgotten about the class component of it all...

[@uncletomsapprentice5733]

It is very interesting to me that your last statement about the class component is completely dismissed within CRT and I had been wondering why that is. This was around two weeks ago and had gave it no more thought until now.,

[@uncletomsapprentice5733]

Crazy Gingos was funny

[@JH-ji6cj]

Still don't see how Trans isn't seen as the highest form of (what most Woke are against) _appropriation_ . Contending that transition-to is equal to biologically born-as runs up against the need to distinguish what one is changing INTO which means a from-to state. Appropriation, as a negative connotation, seemed to imply that the issue was gaining all the positive social returns on using aspects of another culture, without incurring the costs that ACTUALLY LIVING AS that culture incurs. It seems to me Trans does this in that the idealized view of what being a woman IS seems sufficient for that person to identify as to suit their inner self, and/or gain social acceptance as the gender of their personal choice.

[@uncletomsapprentice5733]

Nigerian's are in the top 10% of successful Immigrants in America and they happen to be black but no body that supports CRT will ever acknowledge that, 'because it means something else is in play rather than the fact Nigerians happen to be black. Culture is a force that impacts society and depending on the values of that culture will depend on who is consuming what Values, 'if that makes any sense.

[@bradbel]

You got it. As a white person who lives in the states, I have thought this for many years. In the 90s, I saw immigrants from East and West Africa and thought “ uh oh, these folks are working like the Jews and Irish did 100 years before. How is the “black people will always be marginalized” group are going to explain when black people succeed. It’s culture, not color.

[@stuartshackell5254]

Keeping in mind that most immigrating Nigerians are often the most educated, talented and driven members of there originating population.

[@heathermaich8966]

I hope we can always express our different opinions in a respectful way and be listened to with respect as well

[@lindontilson471]

Helen articulates this so well.

[@anomietoponymie2140]

Which Helen? 😉

[@cestmoi4532]

I really appreciated this conversation. I'll have to listen to it twice, it was too short!

[@annlouise8909]

Oh, I sure 'went right' because of this. Absolutely.

[@annlouise8909]

All I can do is contribute to pendulum swing. That's it.

[@theroyalone5765]

I went too

[@rogerflack415]

Two great thinkers

[@maxbom.3940]

Helen's fire alarm beeping for low battery indication feels like the spirit of Robin Di Angelo twitching cos she's triggered..

[@peteratkinson922]

What about Batman d'angelo?

[@adamnogender565]

Yes, this is a very good discussion. Ive listened to it a few times. Im just waiting for someone to attend to the fire alarm :)

[@noah1502]

Pluckrose was awesome!

[@Jivansings]

The problem reveals itself if you challenge “how they formulate the problem” and very few people speak to that. It’s quite different when ask someone “why should I accept your way of formulating the problem” at this level You sometimes break the spell, and find a person there under that weird pseudo-certainty that so righty frightens us. I know a lot of people who have gingerly silently moved toward the right, and the reasons boil down to one thing : The one thing people come away with after these conversations is the feeling of having been dominated, and they can sort out why? “Having been dominated” as a result of a conversation may reveal the “bad motive “ they have hidden underneath the good one “pro trans rights” which is - My words are a strategy to dominate or to avoid being dominated. That’s all, that’s how they formulate the problem, and I meet them there as an uncomfortable but actual starting place.

[@anomietoponymie2140]

Yes, that is exactly how my journey rightward started in about 2012, when I encountered "trans women" browbeating people on a leftist forum I was part of.

[@fokkerfilms560]

I am now a fan of Helen Pluckrose.

[@davidanderson9664]

Helen is always great. Thx. D.A. J.D., NYC (traditional liberal / atheist / atty / writer)

[@exlesoes]

I enjoyed this talk! thank you both (you kept integrity and professionalism throughout which is refreshing to me..)

[@garynelson2409]

Qppreciate the scholarship of Helen Pluckrose. 👏👏👍👍❤

[@5lowburner]

An outstanding interview. Thanks to you both!

[@nf6386]

Interesting to hear that post modernism is sceptical of all meta narratives including Marxism: I’ve heard Helen disagree with Jordan Peterson about the identity of his claimed opponents as “post modernist neo-Marxists” but never really understood what the flaw in his claim was supposed to be. That said, isn’t the “woke” movement truly conflating these ways if thinking: there’s a scepticism of many traditional and historic narratives and distinctions (e.g. around gender identity and roles, around the value attributed to traditional education and scientific knowledge as superior to subjective perception or “lived experience”), BUT it also proposes “one meta-narrative to rule them all” in the idea that all social structures and mores come back to the various indentity groups jockeying for power.

[@marieparker3822]

Helen Pluckrose is ultra-compassionate and understanding, while remaining devoted to Reason. How does she do it? By being incredibly strong and an intellectual powerhouse. Also, Helen Joyce's book 'Trans' is required reading.

[@junglers]

This is a great conversation.

[@paulbcote]

Someone on this video call needs to check the battery in their smoke detector. And I don't mean that metaphorically. As I was listening to this, I went through the process of trying to figure out which of the smoke detectors in my house was beeping approximately once a minute. I ruled each of them out. After this video ended, no more beeping. Resume the video, and the beeping commences again. Very funny!

[@SteveCondron]

I hope that conversations such as this are taking place around kitchen tables. Thanks for your good work.

[@YD-tj6jq]

Intelligent, generous discussion. 10/10

[@HellCatt0770]

There can never be too many Helen’s!

[@MarkMackenzievortism]

Two people I disagree with on a good few things but thoroughly enjoy listening to what they have to say and learning from it too. Excellent.

[@rachaelhart1670]

I’ve had this sitting in my ‘to watch’ list for quite a while and I’m glad I sat down to listen to it today - phenomenal and well articulated discussion - makes perfect sense to someone with only a fairly cursory understanding of critical race theory and queer theory, and has given me a lot to think about and consider. I can certainly see the point about there being positive aspects to all these theories - I’ve long believed that some of these lines of thought have the right idea but are a bit (or in the case of some theories) or a lot off the mark. I think the whole attitude of everyone belonging to this strict hierarchy and having a uniform perspective is particularly injurious - it removes people’s abilities to advocate for themselves. It’s always “listen to trans people” until some trans people (like those who run gender dysphoria alliance) raise concerns about the current movement and attitudes. It’s always “listen to sex workers” until those sex “workers” are talking about the high rates of PTSD, the misogynistic attitudes of the men who buy sex, the fact that there is a reason the sec industry mostly involves women and those women are disproportionately low socio-economic, have histories of abuse, are people of colour or indigenous or mentally ill. It’s this kind of boxing people in that causes detransitioners to struggle to find mainstream platforms - their personal experiences go against the dominant narrative these post-modernist identity-theorists are pushing. We need more nuance, we need more objectivity, and goddess, please, we need open conversations and falsifiability. Let’s talk about it. We need to be able to talk about it. Until cancel-culture dies I don’t believe we can make this world much better.

[@jon9625]

Beautifully expressed. Too many critics of new progressive ideas are cliched, defensive or anatagonistic which can be quite off putting

[@chrisxavier1848]

"Perversity attracts perversity; and perversion of thought leads to attempts to pervert language."

[@johnnywatkins]

Interesting conversation would love to see a follow up that goes further in to the issues

[@terrancephillips5798]

It’s YOU!!! I’ve watched a couple of your videos with James Lindsey recently and I keep trying to figure out who’s smoke alarm is chirping… Do you need me to come change the battery for you darlin? 😂

[@danieljakubik3428]

Helen Pluckrose is certainly an authoritative source on the ideological roots of wokeness. So is James Lindsay. The two co-wrote a book together titled “Cynical Theories”.

[@AnthonyBriganceCook]

Brilliant.

[@friarnewborg9213]

the TWO HELENS (who speak sense). Awesome

[@elisabethy9743]

Good conversation, but I would add that corporations and politicians are not being "forced" into taking these positions, but they take them on enthusiastically as a terrific means. I think it's also important to discuss that these ideas came out of programs and journals funded by the CIA. The historical context of this current is so significant because the historical omissions result in a limited spectrum that is virtually unidentifiable. Gabriel Rockhill has good scholarship on this. His lectures are available on youtube. Hans Georg-Mueller also has good work on wokism and identity from a philosophical standpoint.

[@Madonnalitta1]

Power isn't innate. That's wokeist speak. Power is attained through money in our world.

[@harrietpotter649]

This was a very insightful discussion.

[@USA50_]

Thanks for this video! I have fell out of favor with many political & social movements over the years because their goals are to lofty. Each one wants to build an unrealistic "utopia" which can/won't work. We need real life on the ground thinking. Thanks again for the discussion. ☺️👍🇺🇲🇬🇧

[@thebiggerpicture5338]

Helen Puckrose is certified based.

[@Tadesan]

Will you please discuss male genital mutilation in the USA and elsewhere?

[@malleus.maleficarum.24]

Is the best indicator of future success whether their parents were successful...or if their parents were together and involved in their upbringing? Does it take success to create success, or does it take support to create success?

[@amyshoneye5455]

Peace Love Light And Laughter 2U And Your Household Sunshine ❤️ 🌞 😊💖💕🙏🏼

[@honestjohn6418]

I’m English and have shifted right quite dramatically since 2012 and it had nothing to do with Brexit. Almost everything to do with the social justice movement and radical, mandatory, perpetual immigration and diversity. I find the way educated British ladies like your good selves, despite all of the talk about openness and allowing a diversity of opinion, there’s almost always a starting assumption that being right wing is negative by default. It’s almost ubiquitous with the educated British middle class, especially women. There doesn’t seem to be the same negative reaction to anything right of centre across the pond. Great conversation though. Thank you 🙏

[@silververnallbells191]

Blame it on the British Empire. You don't get to run raw over other peoples & drag them into your systems & not have them understand their place in the "third world" (UK being 1st world) & needing to move to the 1st world to exist comfortably in the world y'all created. GET OVER IT.

[@honestjohn6418]

@@silververnallbells191 we won’t let them hand over our homeland to the world. GET OVER IT. It’s not yours

[@thomasgt9933]

I am sticking to the left because I still agree with its core principles on economic legislation but I agree that the left really needs to drop this as it is eroding it.

[@orlamcmanus9019]

Helen Joyce is Irish. The right are letting this happen at nuclear speed, it's woke imperialism, do you think if it wad left wing the corporations, and every atm of government and law would be on board

[@Tina06019]

As a lifelong Democrat, I am convinced that postmodern woke identitarian queer theorists have done terrible damage to our political party. Most of us just want to be kind and generous, and enfranchise everyone. Poverty and class are very important, and no one seems to be addressing this very important problem.

[@fattyboombatty2000]

Listen to this woman. Society doesn’t have a responsibility to elevate you. The only answer is personal responsibility. What else could? Her answer is no answer. Her solution could only lead us back back to where we are now.

[@johnhatchel9681]

Love me some Pluckrose.

[@Machobravo]

Fantastic job!

[@cjvan713]

Wow. She brought up to Spanish inquisition. I wasn't expecting that.

[@Relativecalm2]

@cjvan713 No one expects the Spanish Inquisition. 😂😂😂😂😂

[@kimberlyrose6856]

Thanks for sharing.

[@TheLigthbringer]

MLK was not color blind and didn’t promote that. It’s a misunderstanding.

[@alannamarohnic902]

It would be helpful to consider the writings of Thomas Sowell when discussing these topics.

[@Judytamalauq]

Maby the root of problem with language started when we allowed to call man who “transition” a “trans woman”. He is a man who trying to transition ergo hi is a “trans man”. And of course the same for a woman who is trying to transition : “trans woman”. With that we would save us from confusion and the problems we are facing now.

[@rosannam7623]

Do you think this just came out of thin air trans people have existed since the dawn of time it's a medical condition let people live!

[@bjkarana]

Excellent discussion, but the low battery beep on the smoke detector in the background drove me crazy thinking it was one of my own, haha.

[@eddiej9733]

Wonderful exposition on theory and the danger of theories which were meant to be simply critical lens for intellectual exploration morphing into accepted lore and a meta narrative itself .

[@davidfogarty2220]

Nice one Pluckers.

[@Tadesan]

I also thought intersectionality was about studying and celebrating differences.

[@howardhutton6806]

Ignorance and hurt feelings know no bounds - the real social contagion.

[@paigemccormick6519]

22:30 "Journalism has been hollowed out" I hate to be lazy, but I would really like a short-form daily news. By now, I think most of us can find the independent, long-form pieces that are excellent. I'm hoping that certain daily sources I have my eye on, stand the test of time and integrity. I strive to pay as I go.

[@HighKingoftheElves]

Unfortunately much of the good journalism is hidden behind paywalls these days, furthermore local journalism has seriously declined.

[@paigemccormick6519]

@@HighKingoftheElves True, about paywalls. I'll pay! What "good journalism" do you find in a daily dose? Remember, I said we know how to find the long-form. Er, I'll want US-based.

[@PonyTrotsky]

Very smart and straightforward. I would have liked to see a deeper, more rigorous discussion of the Marxist critique of postmodernism - there's a lot of wonderful writing on this point - but I guess you can't have everything. 😉 Thank you!

[@mathewhale3581]

10:20 if you change the way you talk, that will change reality. No. They don’t want to change. They want YOU to change.