Iroh made some mistakes.

[@KirbySonicTeam]

This video is perfect. Thank you so much for laying out all this stuff about iroh. Irohs wisdom is so powerful because it comes from a desperate place to help others because he was not able to help his son. Thats the punishment and pain iroh will have to live with for the rest of his life, and it gives his words weight and value because they’re from a broken man. Not an all knowing and kind sage. I’m also glad you pointed out that Iroh messed up during crossroads of destiny, literally telling Zuko he must choose good. That’s how Azula got him in the end, she told him to choose what he wanted by presenting something he cared about and leaving it on the table, while Iroh made it clear that zukos choice is about making the correct one.

[@Robyn_007]

I think his 600-day siege of Ba Sing Se is the most morally abhorrent thing he did. In ancient sieges, thousands could die a day due to no food or water being let in. With a siege as excessive as a 1.8 year one, the death toll could be immense, a quarter of the population dying wouldn't be an underestiment. Edit: My previous comment was hyperbolic and I adjusted it to feesback.

[@spencernaugle]

True in real life, but I'm going to nitpick some cannon lore details. Most of Ba Sing Se's farmland is inside the first wall. And their water comes from an underground spring. Iroh's men only broke through the first wall "But was Quickly expunged" after his son died. If anything, the Fire Nation soldiers suffered more than the earth kingdom citizens. (I'm not defending Fire Nation behavior I'm just saying, Ba Sing Se is well protected)

[@Robyn_007]

@spencernaugle I edited to remove the 80% claim, which was hyperbolic, but I still think the Earth Nation suffered more. If most of the food was in the first wall, it would likely be targeted by mortar fire and fire arrows. Additionally, no food would be let in so food rationing would have to begin and thousands would starve over the couese of nearly two years the siege lasted. There is no siege fictional or real that causes more damage to the ones siegeing.

[@ConnorLonergan]

@@Robyn_007 This assumes that the Fire Nation artillery could get past the walls (they where roughy 328 feet tall.).

[@ZagTheRaccoon]

This is an unscripted video, so apologizes for gaffs, and some thinking through the topic in real time. Trying a new format out as well with a ziggy boi. Anyways, lots of love, lemme know if this works for y'all.

[@Drawoon]

I wasn't bothered by any gaffs. They just add to the charm.

[@Lastofthemohaggens]

I'm sure these are easier to make but I really hope you don't shift to this format. The rambling aimlessness is a significant step down from your usual tightly written content and the flubs pad out of the runtime a lot. Still, the actual points were interesting and I did enjoy the video, just quite a bit less than your usual fare.

[@Liar_Cake]

really enjoyed the lil-guy! not so much with the video style... don't get me wrong it was a pretty good video, it's just that I preferred the essay-ish style more

[@hopedefiant]

Love the animated cutie!

[@Drawoon]

Great video. Great points. I've got a few counterpoints. The siege in Ba Sing Se was terrible. He can't undo that. He can't fully make up for it. What he can do is do the best he can. It would be pretty hard to change the fire nation from within, as his reputation had taken a big hit. What he could do was start a secret organization with some of the most powerful benders, to stand against the fire nation at a key moment. Iroh didn't make Zuko a good person. But he did offer a good environment. Without Iroh, Zuko would have listened more to Azula, Ozai, or fire nation generals. Do you think he would have chosen the good side then? And what more should he have done for Zuko? Tell him how to be a good person? He tried and it didn't work. I think at some point he saw that his family was abusive and bad for the world. Then he decided to get out with the one person he thought he could convince. Zuko. Hence why he didn't try to get Azula out too. She already thought he was weak. His efforts didn't make that any better. And she was very convinced by her father's ideology.

[@diddymelone2265]

at the end of the day, your moral integrity is of noones concern but your own - nobody cares. I am not interested in deciding whether or not Iroh is a good person, but rather to critizise and ultimately dismantle the power structures, which enable individuals to have such influence over other peoples lifes. Iroh did some messed up things and held some toxic beliefs (like "there is honour in poverty"), but that doesnt mean everything he said was wrong. sometimes people paint him as a perfect paragon of masculinity, and thats bothering me. he's not, and thats totally fine, I do love him as a character. just like I myself am consciously trying to live up to my own moral integrity and I am often failing to do so for diverse reasons and I still do love myself. we don't have to defend Iroh from criticism in my eyes, we rather should be open to critique his behaviour and again the societal structures that enabled them. Ozai is a terrible guy, but the problem is not that he's a terrible person, but that he's a terrible person with the power of a nations leader. instead of taking the gamble to have either a good or bad person as fire lord, lets not have a fire lord ... is what I'm saying. lets not focus so much on judging individuals, but on transforming systems, so that we don't need solidary examples of great masculinity, like Iroh as such. he's a flawed human being and when he came to accept himself and his former crimes, he became a mostly positive influence on the world around him, thats a good lesson to take. but that's it.

[@Drawoon]

@@diddymelone2265 Heck yes. Great points. I agree with pretty much all of that, and couldn't have said it better myself. I'm not fully sure why I chose to defend him. Maybe it's because in general I like to defend people and give them the benefit of the doubt. A lot of animosity arises over misunderstandings. I like to help people have empathy for the other side. That way they can fix the problems instead of blaming the other. Maybe it's because how we treat characters reflects how we think about ourselves and each other. Influence one and you change the other. If Iroh can have these problems and this terrible past, and still be a good person, maybe that's the case for some of us too. Or maybe I was just butthurt. I'll let you be the judge.

[@VagabondRetro]

​@@Drawoon I really don't get why everyone is so hard on the "Simple on Honor in Poverty" line. Iron isn't telling Zuko stealing is bad because of its own sake. Rather, he is trying Zuko to be more humble and practical. Going on constant risky burglaries to get not just food but also fancy stuff they don't need and will only hold them back (there's a reason they both just leave most of the stuff in the cave) is dangerous, unnecessary, and is not done out of desperation as it is pride. Iroh is trying to get Zuko to see that he doesn't have to force what he wants out of others to provide for himself. Times were hard, but they had ways to get food and money (even if they were ineffective and humiliating), they had clothing, shelter and even a pack animal. Times are hard, but that does not mean Zuko can't take pride in himself and just doing what he can. Surviving is something to be proud of. He is telling Zuko that he doesn't and should not exert force over others to get what he wants, which is what Zuko has been taught to do his whole life.

[@Drawoon]

@@VagabondRetro ahh yeah, that makes sense. He's not saying being poor is honorable. He's saying you can have honor while being poor.

[@sparxstreak02]

Iroh to me had always been a morally grey character, as yes - he DID let his nephew terrorise innocents while searching for Aang. But his loyalty wasn’t to morality, just those he held dear. Once he tried to steer Zuko away from Avatar hunting in Book 2 & allies with Team Avatar by the end of said book, I think his shift in perspective also continued here - it didn’t just happen offscreen after he lost his son.

[@earl2348]

Id argues that against the Petty Theft lines being the fact that Zuko is not a petty thief. He is a Armed Robber (I mean you show that in the video) and he stole a Ostrich Horse, which um....those things were expensive as shit.

[@violetjade64]

i honestly never liked iroh all that much, like i always appreciated his wisdom and love for zuko and whatnot esp as a kid, but in recent times it was hard to ignore all of the shitty things he did, most namely his creepiness with june and THE FACT HE WAS A PROUD GENERAL FOR AN IMPERIALIST NATION 🥴 whenever i am in atla fan spaces and people prop up iroh as if hes perfect im always flabbergasted

[@violetjade64]

also the extreme favorism for zuko over azula and just completely having no faith in azula/just writing her off pissed me off baddd like you useless old man... this is serious to me.

[@nehriim3748]

I think that a lot of people do not see that Iroh still is on his journey to become better during the show. Before the show, during the war, he was indoctrinated into being a general and was prepared to gain the throne. He 100% believed it was his right to become the next fire lord and spread prosperity to all the other nations(that's what fire nation propaganda has said). During his siege he believed it was the way it was supposed to be, that it was his destiny. He was a harsh individual, laughing about the suffering of others. Because they have been dehumanized all his life. Then, his son died and it made him realize that destiny wasn't as simple as he was told all his life. His heart was broken, started double guessing all the propaganda he believed. And Ozai took that moment to gain the throne. After that Iroh started going to the other nations, started respecting their cultures and learning from them. He began having deep respect for the spirits and started to understand that the ideology of the fire nation was horrible and destructive. This probably got him into looking for the origin of fire bending, and he met the two dragons. To protect them, as they are some of the last of their kind, he told everyone he killed them. Because he knew that the fire nations culture would get them to kill the dragons. After all, the fire nation does not respect nature, cultures or the spirits. Season 1 starts when Iroh is of the opinion that it might be his destiny to make his nephew a great leader, the great leader he could never have been. He still believes in some of the fire nations propaganda, despite second guessing it for years to this point. He still believes his nephew needs to kill the avatar so order can be restored. You can see this at episode 2 where he and Zuko throw a big fireball towards the Gaang. This all changed at the end of the season. The fire nation made an attempt on Zuko's life, and then killed one of the most important spirits for the balance of nature. This broke Iroh, he started to see how it really was. That the fire nation was actually evil and would destroy anything for more power. From season 2 onward I cannot think of a single moment that Iroh actually tried to harm the Gaang. He tries to stop Zuko a lot, tries to get out of the conflict. Tries his hardest to turn Zuko away from what the fire nation demands of him. And when that didn't work, when Zuko was still restless. He tried to get Zuko to join the Avatar. Which he failed in. Iroh is a complex character. He is also very realistic. A lot of people who grow up under bigotry do not second guess it. Iroh eventually did, but only after horrible things started happening before his eyes.

[@Aspiringtrader2024]

This was beautiful

[@nwmkshsnw]

Great points. I agree that we shouldn’t be so quick to overlook Iroh’s past or hedonistic faults in favour of idolizing him. However, I want to add some thoughts on how this is more a failing of the audience than the show, which never really minimizes Iroh’s imperialist past. He actively and joyfully participated in the siege, we see how zhao and the fire nation prison guards mock him for falling so far from the great military general he once was, and we know how skilled (and able to do damage) he is. Like with the air nation genocide, everything is there for us to infer the gravity of what Iroh has done off screen, even if the graphic imagery isn’t shown to us. And I think when he refuses the throne and says Zuko is the one with unquestioning honour, it’s an acknowledgement that although he may be redeemed to us - who see him through Zuko’s eyes as someone unconditionally loving and crucial to his redemption arc - his past makes him unfit to be the figurehead leading the fire nation into the new post-war world. Despite how much he has changed, he does not have unquestionable honour. But we trust him personally as much as zuko, they both hail from the same Royal lineage (nobody really knows about his avatar grandfather), and would both have to claim the throne against their younger sibling, so the real difference must be their past. Zuko doesn’t get a chance to do harm as a Royal like Iroh did, because he speaks out against sacrificing soldiers at his very first military meeting. The worst harm he does after that is largely to the gaang (might not have been true if he was driven by cruelty or ambition over the strict desire to get his honour back, and for example had refused to leave the South Pole alone when aang offered himself up) which means that his personal repentance to and later self-sacrifice for the gaang (especially katara) is enough to redeem him. I think the reason Iroh is unfit for the throne has less to do with it being the killing of one brother by another for power (again, Zuko goes into the Agni Kai anticipating he will have to do the same to Azula for the throne) and more to do with the fact that Zuko’s mistakes are not nearly as great. Iroh can join the white lotus and help reclaim the city he laid siege to, but we don’t know the extent of the harm he did before his son died. And it’s great the show doesn’t ever put us in a position where we do have to minimize Iroh’s past to make him more forgivable and justify his worthiness to be Fire Lord. They don’t pretend he never did anything morally repugnant in his past in order to make him more palatable and ensure the audience liked him (like was done in Schindler’s list). But they still offer an earnest example of someone doing better once they know better (including the humiliations and difficulties that he suffers as a result) and that even if you may never be able to achieve “unquestionable honour” for yourself, the good you may be able to accomplish in the world and through others is worth doing it anyways.

[@nwmkshsnw]

Also side note, not at all excusing what he does with June (which I agree is maybe the thing that ages the worst in the show) or how reckless he was sometimes, but I like to think some of Iroh’s hedonistic behaviours were him trying to get Zuko to indulge in joys of life (like tea and dating) so he could appreciate he could make a happy life for himself even if never returned home.

[@anewplasticidea]

great point at the end. no need for forgiveness and that's others' prerogative. how can anyone make up for their systematically entrenched past? it's hard to sever that. the best thing about iroh and zuko is those constant failures in their pursuit of the Other. i think the loss of his son is insanely important because you must lose something here. you have to lose either your life or one you love, limb, capacity. anti-colonialism has revenge, it is potent and understandable, and in resistance there is a want of pain or non existence whether we agree with it or not. and the loss and revenge are so miniscule in comparison to what they did to others but big to the person that it happened to (because that is part of why they are doing what they are doing). so loss as a metaphor of leaving behind because you faced direct consequences of your horrendous actions at a critical moment is a compelling way to start on a journey of personal change though not universal forgiveness...a lot of things being said that i have had trouble articulating lol thx

[@Wwsdghh]

Keep it up your actually underrated channel

[@btarczy5067]

Iroh was groomed to rule a proto-fascist empire, managed to grow into someone who could acknowledge the harm he caused and did his best to mitigate it. He hasn’t figured it out at the start of the show but is in the process of doing so. Of course he’s flawed and that’s part of what makes the character so compelling. His „weakness“ laid the groundwork for his rejection of the Fire Nation and this humanity in an inhumane system makes for a really hopeful story. I’m only halfway through the video and have to admit that „Cinema Sins“-ing through his shortcomings is a bit hard to watch for me because… That’s why like the character so much.

[@lemondisaster1476]

I agree with viewing Iroh as a flawed character and that he actually goes through his own arc alongside Zuko, rather than seeing him as some paragon who has already completed his journey and is simply guiding Zuko. Rather, traveling and caring fot Zuko was another part of his journey. I also like the angle that they both learn from each other and is what leads to their individual changes towards the end. Though I disagree with the idea that Zuko did not need Iroh for his change to happen. Yes he's a fundamentally good person but he was being led astray and I feel that without Iroh's input or care he probably would've gone down an even darker path, maybe even dying at some point in his quest for Aang. They both needed each other.

[@caesurios949]

honestly this video made me more afraid of the netflix remake

[@diddymelone2265]

[@VagabondRetro]

Good video, but I kind of disagree that Iroh is romanticizing being poor as much as he is trying to get Zuko to not take unnecessary risks for the sake of pride. 1. Being practical about thrm not getting caught by causing trouble. Rich people are powerful and can cuase toruble (and there is the fact that not everyone Zuko steals from is exactly Richy Rich). 2. Zuko grew up incredibly privileged, and from what we see they aren't exactly starving. They have managed to survive and Iroh has ways to get money and items with hurting others even they are humiliating and inefficient. Zuko doesn't steal because he believes they have too as much as he wants to gain control over his life and act out on those he views as deserving it (like that one guy who made Iroh dance). Zuko is doing this out of his shame. TLDR, the lesson is that Zuko should take pride in who is currently despite his circumstances, and that is being poor but able to get by. The reason Zuko leaves is that deep down he knows that Iroh is right, but he also thinks that he cannot do what needs to be done with Iroh and that Iroh will be better off without him too. Zuko wants and needs to grow on apart from Iroh and learn. Zuko was right there, and we agree on that. I also disagree that Iroh wanted something akin to 'eugenics' Like what? Its not about him wanting superior genes for Zuko, its about him wanting and sweing the potential within Zuko to be better than Azula and Iroh himself. Plus, and I also only have agree with Iroh wanting Zuko to seem to do to his own pride about what Zuko should be wanting for himself. But, and this links back to the poverty thing, Iroh wanted Zuko to just do the practical thing that was good for him rather than just what he wanted. It also goes even deeper this time, since Zuko is literally changing from his previous view of the world where he had to prove to himself that he had to fulfill what his father and Nation wanted of him and that nothing else was worth pursuing. He was trying, as he said, to get Zuko to consider other options. I don't view. So, overall, I agree Iroh is flawed, but he I do think he helped Zuko out more than you seem (although Zuko obviously did most of the change himself) and I think that most of his actions towards Zuko where more focused on gaining independence by being humble and practical.

[@literallyh3093]

9:05 Stealing is bad no matter what the situation. Why are you laughing at that. Iroh was right here.

[@hopedefiant]

The Gaang disagrees: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nKu5l4Vsj9RsiK8

[@ThePrincessCH]

It could be worse. There's a sketch on a show called "Horrible Histories" about a World War I soldier that's forced to eat bread made from sawdust, pepper made from ashes, and drink coffee made from coal tar as well as a milkman who used water from the toilet to dilute their milk.