Is a lowered belt printer BETTER?

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⬇️ 3D models, filaments, printer links⬇️
Models used
Armel the polar paladin www.prusaprinters.org/prints/...
3D Benchy www.prusaprinters.org/prints/...
CR-30 conversion kit www.prusaprinters.org/prints/...
Get the CR-30
Via the Kickstarter page go.toms3d.org/CR30
Directly from Creality go.toms3d.org/CR30CR
Filaments used
No-label turquoise PLA
Prusament Urban Grey PETG go.toms3d.org/Prusament
DAS FILAMENT Transluzent Neongrün PETG www.dasfilament.de/filament-s...
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[@swamihuman9395]

"Two areas specifically that are causing problems; that is top surfaces and bottom surfaces, and the infill itself". Other than that, no problem :D

[@colinyoung3685]

Good walls then?

[@alycapo3391]

That's exactly what my first thought was

[@alycapo3391]

@@colinyoung3685 shortly followed by this

[@p3chv0gel22]

Flipping the CR-30 by 45° to get a "normal CoreXY" blew my mind

[@mrburns366]

it's almost like it's half a cube.. 😋

[@themk2project399]

would love to see like a traditional cr10 with the belt, so when the print is done it moves out of the way and next print starts, cut out the whole 45 print angle dilemmas

[@FT91-z5j]

That’s not the reason for this belt printer they wont to b able to print for example a one meter sword with this machine. If you want to print several things in a row this is not the way to go.

[@WeAreChecking]

@@FT91-z5j out of curiosity, what would be your ideal solution if you were looking to print a large number of individual parts with minimal downtime?

[@FT91-z5j]

@@WeAreChecking for me something like Thomas voron it’s Great to do that. But it’s a littlebit over engendered. For less down time the simplest way you can go is to push the prints off bed by the printer itself.

[@dominick253]

@@FT91-z5j that's not necessarily true. There could be a sequence that would allow part to print, then move the belt, continue printing.

[@_DiJiT]

@@dominick253 it would still have to be sliced diagonally or use non-planar 3D printing. Extruders still have a width to them, so you can’t just do sections.

[@Naomi-Wu]

You monster! Just kidding😅 I love it- moar 3DPrintMill hacks!

[@fuzzballdasoft5889]

You can feel the fury building up

[@enochroot9438]

Naomi be preparing all her cyborg ninja tech weapons & armour to pay Thomas a visit

[@josephgauthier5018]

Was low key hoping to find you in the comments! Also, it seems he has replied to 3D Printing Nerd's comment, but not yours...hmmm. maybe he is afraid XD. As an aside, I cant wait to get one of these belt printers in the future, I might be more inclined to mess around with cosplay :D.

[@houseofflambeau9656]

Naomi ‘SexyCyborg’ Wu, do you think a PEI coated belt would help with his adhesion issues? He is using petg.

[@ninehundreddollarluxuryyac5958]

Is there some reason why it the belt can't be tilted the other way and the nozzle rotated 90 degrees to make a regular X-Y-Z machine with the belt being the Y? I would imagine that this was tried first, then the belt was turned 45 degrees for some practical reason. Would you mind sharing that reason and why having the nozzle at 90 degrees to the belt was a problem to solve?

[@frankb5728]

"This was actually a lot easier than I though it would be" followed by hours of troubleshooting... I know this feeling too well.

[@PaulDominguez]

CR-30: The LowRider Edition! Awesome name.

[@MihaiDesigns]

Cool one Tom! I love all that insight as well as the quick glimpses at the failed tests. Experimenting with changes and seeing how far they can be pushed is something I rarely see. Awesome!

[@MrSlundell]

I just want that belt as a bed for my ender 5 and use it for reliable parts ejection.

[@giedrius2149]

Honestly, I don't need an infinite y axis. The 45° angle looks horrible too

[@maximilian.arnold]

I love your investigation and the thought/analysis that went into this project. Keep it your ideas flowing.

[@Joe_Yacketori]

Really good idea. 6cm isn't really all that low for a large amount of prints. It's a worthy trade off in return for the advantages you were seeking.

[@3DPrintingNerd]

I wonder if you used Kiri:Moto for the slicer would have made a difference?

[@MadeWithLayers]

I'll need to try Kiri:Moto with the CR-30 some day... Ideamaker, too!

[@KeithOlson]

@@MadeWithLayers Hmmm... What about a second extruder at the back--perpendicular to the belt--that lays down a thin, hot layer for the main extruder to lay the model on?

[@fancytableshoes]

Once my CR-30 arrives, I'd really like to try Proper Printing's "Moving Portal Mod" to basically turn it into an ABP. 'Course, such a thing can't be commercialized til Makerbot's patent runs out in 2030, but a lights-out 3D printing work cell sure would be nice!

[@symmetryninja]

@@KeithOlson i was thinking the same thing

[@davnatanial1716]

You should increase your top layer and bottom layer to 7 layers

[@AndrewSink]

Such a clever idea, and excellent execution! Can't wait to see "adjustable angle" belt printers become more common!

[@Justkyrios]

I was thinking the same thing as the video went on. Add 2 more stepper motors and a hinge and some shenanigans and you've got yourself a masterpiece.

[@Tubaii25]

@@Justkyrios Then we could also have a go at nonplanar printing. The only thing that remains is slicer support and proper bed materials for adhesion.

[@andy_liga]

@@Tubaii25unfortunately all is missing is patents expiring... Adjustable angle printers -> patented i3 printers with conveyor belts for Y -> patented Non-planar printing -> patented I do understand why patents exist and their functions, but they are really holding back the full potential of 3D printing, imho. Both Tom and Stefan have been going through this topic on their podcast, several times...

[@Tubaii25]

@@andy_liga Yeah.. forgot about the patents side of these things 😔

[@mrburns366]

but if the community just started building things without selling them would a patent really matter? 🤔

[@ArtByLukeW]

This video is really cool! Great build. I love the musical choices.

[@Simon_Rafferty]

Hey Tom, It's a while since I've watched one of your videos. Your editing and general production values have become way better. Just thought I'd let you know - as a sort of virtual pat on the back.

[@ScorpionKingdom]

Thanks for testing and sharing this

[@MMuraseofSandvich]

Best parts: (1) Build montage and music (2) "Heated bed. Hot fire. Cooled bed. Snowflake." (3) Tom's shop. Seriously, he could build just about anything there. I need to clean the garage and fix the door... (4) Modding a printer without chopping the stock aluminum extrusions.

[@BM-su7kc]

I love your new battle bot build mate.

[@Redeemed1337]

Interesting concept.... what if the nozzle itself was ground at a 15 degree angle? You would have to compensate for increased line width due to the elliptical hole, but it would be a fun experiment.

[@jasonking7570]

Hmmm... I was about to say it would also be possible to design an angled nozzle, but then the problem would likely be getting it to properly tighten at *just* the right angle

[@Redeemed1337]

@@jasonking7570 you might also run into flow issues with an angle that sharp, you'd probably have to angle the whole hotend, and I don't know if that infringes on the patent that these angled belt printers avoid or not.

[@xKatjaxPurrsx]

@@Redeemed1337 It really doesn't matter if it infringed on the patent since that only applies to products you're selling. You're free to infringe on all the patents you want at home for your own use.

[@Redeemed1337]

@@xKatjaxPurrsx In the US, you can indeed infringe on the patent by just making something for use at home. Obviously, this isn't enforceable, but the moment you put that information on the internet... Well. Have fun.

[@bradley3549]

@@Redeemed1337 citation needed...

[@ImpossibleLink]

This style of video is really cool

[@davezon]

Thomas I just found this video so informative. I've got one of the 1st CR30s commercially released and found that I have had very low adhesion compared to the other CR30s videos I've watched. I have 3 other fdm printers and this adhesion issue made no sense what so ever until your video. Could you or Naomi Wu tell me a bit about the different belts as I believe that after all my sttuggles that I have an early low adhesion version. Thanks Dave.

[@oddzc]

Would be a lot trickier but also pretty neat: software adjustable angle so you can get the perfect first layer

[@MidgetBarmaid]

Could you make a 45 degree nozzle. I feel like that would fix everything

[@leo-hao]

That probably won't work. If you angle the nozzle you'd get better bed adhesion but your layer adhesion will suffer the same amount as the bed adhesion improves.

[@ConsultingjoeOnline]

*Awesome montage!*

[@flankerzo]

congrats you almost make Cartesian printer

[@ZakLeek]

I totally get how it looks like a Polaroid, once you said that I couldn't stop imagining a photograph coming out the front along the conveyor belt! 🤣 Thanks Tom, great video! 💜🧡💙

[@JoeMorrison]

To push that idea a little farther, I wonder how well it would perform printing lithophanes?

[@ApacheFPV]

Oh my god, i was jus trying to figure out how to calibrate e steps so i watched your video from 2014 and the difference between then and now looks like 2 different channels

[@eddanimoots1896]

They have no idea what I’m going to do with this, this is the start of my benchy army

[@Circle14]

What was the sound track during the build montage? Reminds me of a few 90's bands.

[@spamcan9208]

This might make for an interesting production machine given the right print. It's basically a conveyer belt, you can go on the the next print as you dump the other one off into a bin/transport belt etc And I actually felt my face change expressions when I heard that noise @ 7:27 lol That sounded horrific!

[@JohnWayne99999a]

Congrats on your channel for being so successful both on informing and entertaining us 3d printer lovers

[@wrxsubaru02]

This printer is so under engineered! They could have easily made a tilt feature on the hotend for the beginning lip of the print where it angles off after it gets started. I also feel like you should have made a variable height setup rather than cutting the extrusions like you did. You could have easily put hinges on the back side, and then some type of slider with linear rods on the front side to make it adjustable depending on the model.

[@zfotoguy71]

I wonder what kind of engineering it would take to design a new nozzle so that the entire machine is at it's original 45 degree configuration, however only the tip of the nozzle is angled 45 degrees down so it extrudes straight down on to the belt.

[@Alex-lc1bv]

But then it would be angled wrong for when its printing the rest of the part.

[@redwolf2901]

Good vid, I’ve wanted to get a 3D printer for a while, but had no need till now. I do leather crafting and want to be able to make my own stamps/makers mark. Is there a printer that you could recommend for a beginner? Would need to be able to print a material that can be whacked with a maul or weighed down on leather to stamp an impression.

[@bullzebub]

i have actually tried using pla to do just this. a high infill print and pressure makes great stamps. i wouldn't wack them with a maul though

[@D4rkS7der]

This video kinda proves that Prusa was right and this famous print mill is just o piece of...not worthy of owning expensive piece... Anyway thanks for your video Tom, are there gonna be more filament extruder videos?

[@makie1467]

Hey Thomas Sanladerer ! Do you think it will have an effect if one would grind the nozzle in the same angle like the printer?

[@010falcon]

One question, what if you would use the belt as the Y-axis (the bed) and the use this to mass produce parts? (so instead of using this printer to produce meter long parts, just use it to produce repeated prints?

[@Am_Yeff]

I've seen people use this printer to produce mass amounts of clips and things like that so its doable

[@guitaristtom]

Would doing a mash up of the CR-30 and an Ender do any better? The idea would be to have it print a standard model like the Ender normally would, but then have the belt rotate until the model falls off, then start another one, repeat...

[@gordodefuego]

It was the mint blue filament! I couldn’t get that filament to not curl on my regular ender 3 pro! It was some sort of fila cube pla + 2nd gen or something that didnt require the be to be heated?

[@wibbsdibbs515]

Cool!

[@akust]

cool idea

[@mealticketraceway]

Use raft on the bed surface. It will Turn out really good. More filament but it works

[@bramneirinck2465]

I loved the montage music

[@jstnmlr]

I feel like we just need a printer like a belt on an MK3. I know I couldn't print a sword or an I-beam, but print infinite amounts of normal prints.

[@ianhoolihan2396]

Just G code the head to smack and remove the prints?

[@sagetx]

I sooo want to see a time lapse of a flotilla of benchies being summoned.

[@borgquads4669]

What about making a mount for the hot end that holds it at a slight angle so the print head is at 90 deg to the bed

[@FreeOfFantasy]

Then the head isn't perpendicular to the layer anymore.

[@kailashiyer404]

"that was easier than I thought it was" famous last words

[@RazorSkinned86]

keep the 45 degrees and just make a new mount for the hotend that makes the nozzle 0 degrees to the bed. I did this and it made it print the same as a regular printer but with infinite Z.

[@devindreb]

Exactly what I was going to suggest.

[@OperationStackola247]

Tool-head clearance becomes an issue.

[@3dpprofessor]

I've been saying for a while that a belt printer could do a normal z layer build, but it would need more clearance behind the nozzle for the belt movement. We wouldn't get infinite sized objects, but we could get lots of small objects that had been designed for normal 3d printing.

[@ianhoolihan2396]

Why not just G code a regular core XY head to knock prints off? This belt stuff is a total gimmick

[@3dpprofessor]

@@ianhoolihan2396 Belt printers are a regular core XY head. But I think what you're suggesting is to simply use a regular 3D printer movement system and have a way to knock the prints off. That's a great idea, and here's what I want you to do: Give it a shot and let me know how it goes. There are lots of people who have given it a shot and have had various levels of success with it. However, it's not 100% reliable for all models. A belt is. "So why don't we put a belt on a normal movement system". Yup, Makerbot tried that. But it adds another layer of complexity. In simple terms, it adds another motor. Whereas, a tilted gantry like this gives you the advantage of a belt, with it's quick part removal and "infinite z", with no additional motors or complexity. However, it does change the game, and has it's own set of disadvantages because of that. I wouldn't say belt printers are a gimmick. Belt printers are a new paradigm.

[@mattlogue1300]

You just convinced me I don't want a belt printer. The local micro center just got one. I am a unique proponent of printing at angles to strategically reduce bad overhangs. Eg a hollow cube ..

[@McSquidification]

Are there any belt based printers that have no tilt? so they print normally but can just dump the part off and start again?

[@saplaneguy]

i don't think so, partly because of that makerbot/stratasys patent about it

[@MrMistery101]

So, I take it the reason that a delta isn't mounted onto one of these to print perpendicular on the heated side is some sort of patent, right?

[@HavoCentral]

I would rather see a traditional core XY with a belt as the bed where the XY axis move up and down and the belt doesnt move until you finish the print

[@RomanoPRODUCTION]

Thomas: bending minds at 15° ✅

[@lucasmoody4320]

I've only used Ideamaker with my CR-30, but I've never had any adhesion issues at all. If anything, it's farther towards sticking too well. This is using PLA; I haven't tried anything with PETG yet. Only real issue I've had is the profile I started with prints infill almost like spider web. It's only barely capable of holding up the top surface and the models feel really weak. Changing patterns and density helped out with that to a large extent. I do still screw up about every other print as I test part orientation and then have to reposition on the printer to better align with the printing pattern. I assume that eventually I'll get the hang of it. I went through the same learning process when I got my first SLA printer, having to learn a new set of printing rules that were largely the opposite of the FDM rules I was familiar with.

[@karlfelgate9765]

Could you tilt the model 15 degrees in a normal slicer? If you don't need support

[@sethgandy1337]

Hey Tom! Have you seen the crazy print quality coming off of the BLV MGNs? I'd be delighted if you covered those beasts!

[@sgavy]

Id like a standard Cartesian printer with a belt bed for batch production of pieces.

[@FreeOfFantasy]

Maker it has an patent on that until 2030 and they want crazy money for it.

[@sgavy]

@@FreeOfFantasy oh really!? I did not know that. Thats a pitty. Maybe ill get myself a printmill some day to mod into a standard style Cartesian. 😂

[@certified-forklifter]

Yeeesss, more mods please!

[@ErosNicolau]

How about instead of altering the whole frame to get from 45 to 15, you had only altered the print head mount to only rotate the print head by those 35 degrees?

[@FriendshipLights]

That’s a great idea. I wonder if that’s do-able.

[@Stratiljirka]

What about Core-XYZ printer (Voron 2?) with belted bed? I think that might be a way to print reliably (bed would not move during printing) and continuously. And maybe with a bit of non planar printing you might even print those very large models.

[@freescape08]

Theoretically, the should be an ideal angle to mount the hotend at for reliability. It'll be between pressing the filament down properly and allowing clearance for the side of the hotend while things print.

[@freescape08]

Just had a thought, what if you file the top of the nozzle at a slight angle? I recently had trouble with a nozzle I enlarged being slightly off-centre causing bulges on one side (roughly equivalent to tilting the hotend at the contract point)

[@fabianletsplays78]

Could you use the xy system from the cr30 on an ender 5 pro?

[@walkersouthern5384]

why couldn't you have a regular xyz printer like an ender 3 and just have the belt move back and forth as if it were the bed and then at the end of the file is can move forward for the entire length of the bed to clear it and bring a fresh printing space?

[@redhonu]

Another way to achieve a similar thing, would be to just tilt the hotend to be more vertical. If you then can also make the bed move forward and back during a layer, the effect would be the exact same. That way you don't loose an z height. If you just adjust Z to sin(offset angle)*y + normal z That way, you don't have to change the printer as much, and it could even be adjustable. I don't know though if the Z-bed bed mechanism is robust enough for this, as as its now a true 3D process not 2.5D

[@mururoa7024]

So the moral of the story is, if you _really_ need a belt printer get a Black Belt printer. They work flawlessly.

[@Mad_Monkey]

the music kicks the butts!

[@martincaneva4247]

i like your new haicut

[@TheAruruu]

What if you had the infill as part of the model? Rather than going with auto-generated infill, have it pre-existing, so that when sliced, it slices it as if it were a wall, making them line up as naturally as the walls do.

[@SmilingRob]

Why not mount the extruder on a 45° bracket, then it's at 90° to the bed/belt?

[@qaqrc1065]

wouldn't it make more sense to just angle the toolhead rather than change the tilt of the X/Z gantry? edit: while I am thinking about it, it might actually make even more sense to rotate the gantry the other direction(closer to vertical) but I'd have to play with the idea in CAD for a while to conceptualize it further

[@liesinc.9322]

Very helpful. Thank you!

[@backpropagated]

Benchy 1: failed, Benchy 2: failed ... Benchy 15: failed, *prints something else*: "It's done and it's printing!"

[@booleandiference49]

I think that you could sand nozzle extreme to get a parallel extrusion with bed. Even some company could develope a nozzle with this specific feature

[@SatumangoTheGreat]

You mean sanding the tip at a 45 degree angle? I think you could, but the nozzle opening would be oval, not circular. That might influence the quality of the print, since each "dot of plastic" deposited would be wider in one direction than the other. Also, there is a patent covering 90 degree angle belt printers and I think depositing through that sanded nozzle you describe might breach that patent. Because you now deposite at that 90 degree angle, even though the rest of the printhead is at 45 degrees. But I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not sure.

[@MELVENWONG89]

Will non planer work to resolve the slicer angle issue ?

[@faolan73]

I wonder if you would be able to design something to tilt the carriage that last 15 degrees so that it printed with the nozzle directly contacting the belt, or do the same thing in the original design. That way, bed adhesion wouldnt be an issue.

[@madhunugg]

Nice music!

[@theninjascientist689]

At this point I'd like a belt upgrade for my Ender 5 pro. No infinite Z but automatic print ejection and otherwise the same machine with none of the angle issues.

[@SP_99999]

Maybe a stupid question, instead of changing the angle to 15 degrees this way why not keeping the gantry in same config and create a plate for the head that change the angle of the head vs the plate? This can bring the angle to more vertical without reducing the print size. Even better this cn be made potentially adjustable with a small stepper and gaining possibility to adjust it by the slicer depending on the best angle to print. If you add a limited possibility to move also the belt back and forth you can add additional “axes” capabilities. Or I’m missing something?

[@williamsteele]

One thing that needs to be done in the software to prevent those internal issues is to actually skew the model before slicing. The problem I had when designing the software was that wasn't a feature available to me back in the day. I wound up just rotating the model to the inverse belt angle... slicing it, then adding the Z shift to compensate for the offset. But if the model were already skewed to match the offset of the belt, then no post changes would be necessary and the internal "additional" layers would be in the correct positions.

[@shamusobi2748]

Would it be possible to show how to do the skewing in CAD before slicing?

[@williamsteele]

@@shamusobi2748 Yes... or just a pre-processor on the STL.

[@MadeWithLayers]

Isn't that exactly what today's belt slicers are already doing?

[@williamsteele]

It's the order of precedence that is wrong... those features need to be identified before the skew... but generated after it... so they're generated at the proper offset (angle) from the layer above.

[@williamsteele]

Cura wasn't available when I wrote the first post processors... but it should be easy to modify it to do it in the correct order. Post processing won't do it correctly.

[@Jnolet88]

what's the name of the song during the building phase????

[@mhe0815]

I think the clean solution would be to have the either the belt assembly or the printhead be able to move vertically, which shouldn't be hard to do and then you could use it as both classic machine and as a printmill. Would require more parts, but would be the best of both worlds.

[@CutterSlade001]

That's patented by MakerBot can't sell those.

[@RexusKing]

Absolute mad lad, great job!

[@Skwisgaar999]

I think the print mill is a good idea, and I'm sure over time support for it will become better, but I don't see how this is "better" than automating a standard printer at this moment. You don't need special tooling (special slicer) and the automation is almost as easy as just adding new gcode.

[@Azzysdesignworks]

The only thing I can see is the ability to have a machine crank out a run of parts without you needing to be there. I often would like to set a second print that would finish before I get back to the office, but someone needs to remove the bed and set it for the next part.

[@juliansowa7622]

I wonder if close to 100% (solid or thin objects) or 0% infill (hollow objects) works best with this configuration. Its kind of a waste if material but for some projects it might be best

[@additiveartificer9365]

"Get low" song start

[@MadeWithLayers]

_BME Records has claimed copyright on this video_

[@003Jetfire]

What was the song name during the build montage?

[@alycapo3391]

You could have just designed a duel fan, duct and have each ducked cover each area, maybe one with higher air pressure to the extreme overhang on the far side of the nozzle, very minor firmware tweaks to PWM at best

[@JoeMorrison]

With the benchys losing adhesion at a consistent height, did you check to see if that is where they transition from the heated bed to the cold portion of the belt?

[@MadeWithLayers]

Good point... I'd think they should still be on the heated plate at that point, but I'm going to have to check

[@protator]

He did mention that as a general problem at the beginning of the video. But the bigger issue probably is the one he explained. At a higher bed angle you get a much higher number of overlapping extrusions that re-heat the previous layer and push it further into the belt surface. I would've expected serious warping/lifting issues on that last print if the the uneven bed temperatures were the main culprit.

[@loveblowsbad]

Somewhere deep in my soul I know that someone was told "polaroid cameras are cumbersome" clapped back with some crazy nonsense about a way bigger unit that outputs objects, like made out of plastic or something. like a roll of plastic rather then a roll of film. I don't imagine that went well for them but hey look!

[@InTheWrongTimeline]

Now I'm just thinking about a variable angle 3d printer that raises and lowers to maintain the height

[@latbjoern]

@Thomas Sanladerer have you tried with 30° ? i think 15° is to drastic change ...

[@TheOystei]

could one make a regular printer with just a belt instead of a bed, like for making lots of parts in a row on a ender 3 style printer, and it just movers the belt to a "new build area" between each print?

[@imhi_]

You can. But we don't need belt bed.

[@samgrundy8447]

Hey Thomas

[@emmettturner9452]

12:14 Super Mario World 2: Yoshi’s Island transformation fanfare detected! AKA, Yoshi’s Island: Super Mario Advance 3

[@creepinonthebabes]

be cool if the xy was horizontal to the belt, z was distance to the belt and "a" or "b" was the movement of the belt. so 4 axis.

[@C-M-E]

Tom and his A-Team build music. =) I'm rather curious to see a "delta" belt bed hybrid now.

[@eben_high7522]

4:42 Normal people: heat up the hotend to remove filament. Tom: cUt It oFf

[@a123qwertz567]

Just lift the lower side up the same amount than the now higher side, so the print head move like a core between the x and y axis.... I think this will be a really good design principle..... ;)

[@MadeWithLayers]

Z-axis optional 😉

[@a123qwertz567]

@@MadeWithLayers Maybe use ink instead of filament :D

[@BenVanDenBroeck]

You've been wanting to call this a lowrider mod for a while heh

[@rudenickz]

good music for the build