Is aluminum wiring bad? How to connect copper and aluminum wires safely.

[@jasonangunoby8300]

Thank you. You are the first one out of about 5 videos I could understand and follow. Exceptional.

[@russiansparky4194]

Thanks!

[@conradgonzalez1570]

As a plumber we are taught that anytime you connect two disimilar metals together you will get electrolysis effect where one of the metals will begin to oxidize rapidly . When you connect copper to steel/ iron the iron will rust, oxidize. When you connect aluminum to copper/ brass/ steel connections the aluminum decays, oxidize s. I have also noticed in coastal areas that hardware,nails rust, oxidize very rapidly so I would think aluminum wiring would also oxidize rapidly in the salty air. When electric wires do not connect together tightly,snugly the electricity has to " jump" through the air as it passes through the electrical connections, this causes the wire to get very hot and this causes fires. In automobiles the light bulb grease is always recommended because it helps prevent corrosion and increases connectivity aiding electricity to travel through the grease.

[@LA6NPA]

I agree totally with what you're saying. Dissimilar metals do cause electrolysis. However, you, in your own business are using solder to connect copper pipes. Or maybe you only crimp these days, but you will have to work with soldered pipes. Me, as a radio amateur and electronics builder will often (almost always) solder components as well, and my solder is not even the same alloy as the one you're using (mine contains lead, and that's not even the easiest to get, I use it because it's so much better). So it depends on the metals/alloy. Zinc and iron, for instance. Especially in sea water. You'll put a hunk of zinc on your hull or around a prop shaft or whatever, so the electrolysis eats away at the sacrificial zinc, and therefore protecting whatever steel is around. Modern aluminum wiring is not pure aluminum. The alloy is called AA-8000. t contains 0.001 to 0.3% zinc, 0.001 to 0.03% titanium, 0.001 to 0.5% manganese, and 0.03 to 0.4% silicon, depending on product specification. Thus, it has many of the properties of copper, and a lot of corrosion resistance. However, it's not as good a conductor, and it does need to be connected very securely. That said, If I had to rewire my house, I'd rather pay extra to have copper everywhere. I don't even think alu wires are easily available here, not for installation in a house, at least.

[@Gma7788]

It was a lie. Aluminium connections to STEEL CHASSIS are on trillions of cars 🚗 👌 Perfectly fine. Home stereo receivers, tape decks, EQ sections all aluminium. According to you, all home radio 📻 amplifiers must be made of copper chassis. World famous Marshall Amplifiers are all aluminium chassis. Power chord fittings are BRASS. Car radios connect to STEEL. THE RADIO CHASSIS is aluminium. Grow a brain 🧠 😌 Your poor education is on display. Men ARE world famous liars.

[@richardleon9523]

Thank you for a terrific video. You're articulate and the pictures are perfect.

[@russiansparky4194]

Thanks! Glad you liked it!

[@bobpeterson3975]

35 years ago I built my own 300 amps compact welder. Got short of copper in the process so the secondary coil made half copper half aluminum by soldering them together with a 100 Watt soldering iron. Still works perfect and it is stored in barn. The soldered joint holds tremendous power like a charm. Now got a house half copper half aluminum. Guess what i am going to do. The soldering trick is to use engine oil and soldering rosin after cleaning aluminum wire.

[@jupitercyclops6521]

I was wondering about soldering the splices, then maybe a cap then electric tape or liquid electric tape.? Idk. I need to research more. My dad was a union electrician most his life. He was a sparky before I was born & up until he retired. I'm thankful for all the different things he taught me, but I sure wish I would have learned more about electricity from him. He woulda gladly helped / taught./ tutored me. In fact, one of the last things he asked me before going to the hospital was If I had my panel all buttoned up.. (He'd helped me install a new panel in my 100yr old house.) I didn't lie to my dad very often, but I didn't want him to worry about my projects when he was on his way out. I told him I had finished it for the most part. He was on his death bed. The doctors advised us all to say our goodbyes & gave him 24hrs. We did & had a priest give him his last rights. A couple weeks later. We did it all again. A few weeks after that he passed. He had his last rights prayed for him by a priest 3 different times! He wasn't even a catholic & didn't go to church except for baptisms & stuff for his kids / grand kids, weddings & funerals . I gues he went to catholic churches more than he did any other church.. Been 7 yrs now. I still miss him & still don't have that buttoned up! Hahaha! It's safe (that part of it anyway) & it works great (I just ran a wire through the front vs side. Life's too damn short to be sweating the small stuff. Sorry for the novel! PEACE!

[@Gma7788]

Marshall guitar amplifiers are world famous aluminium chassis designs. Home HiFi stereos are all aluminium designs. World famous for aluminium. Not 1 fire from them. Car radios go through the STEEL chassis to get to the battery. These fools must now go buy the copper car chassis models. 🚗

[@hey.hombre]

I have an older house and has aluminum wiring in some places. I replaced a GFI outlet in the bathroom and it has copper wiring. I plan to install a night light in the hallway close to the floor so it doesn't illuminate the whole hallway. We have regular hallway lamp attached to the wall but it gives off to much light to the great room. There are no outlets in the hallway. So I bought a 4" flush ceiling lamp to install on the lower part of the hallway wall and use the same switch that goes to the hallway lamp. I've decided to use a double toggle switch to replace the existing switch. That way we can turn on or off either lamp. I opened up the existing switch and found it has aluminum wiring and pigtails that connect aluminum wire to copper wires like you mentioned. It's the older method which you described. Yellow connectors with that gray paste. The hot/common/ground wires are aluminum. The ground wire is attached to the box. The hot and common aluminum wires are connected to copper wires and copper wires go to the switch and existing lamp. So what do I do? I'm not going to rewire my house or change the existing lamp. I'm going to replace existing switch with a double toggle switch and install a lamp towards the bottle of wall. Do I cut the existing wires and tie in copper wires using purple connector? I probably just answered my own question. Any information will be greatly b appreciated. Thanks.

[@delcli7165]

I work repairing aluminum wire every day. We often see the PURPLE WIRE NUTS burnt out. DO NOT use purple wire nuts, they do not fix it appropriately. I would suggest Copalum crimping if available in your area.

[@plur90]

In Canada, brown marrettes (#63 and #65) can be used as well. I've got a few of those and a lot of Alumiconn in my mid-70s stacked townhouse. I'd like to replace the brown marrettes with Alumiconn if I could afford to.

[@aileenbarrio6658]

Thaaaaank u,🎉❤.. first video so excellently well explained right on the subject of dealing with aluminum wiring among many other videos. Really really helpful, organized and complete..!

[@Spaudge26]

Bought a house built in the early 70s that has aluminum wiring. Been researching a ton on this since I know there's a risk of fire hazard. However, I think as long as due diligence and proper steps have been taken, this really isn't too difficult of a job to replace outlets/switches yourself as long as you know what you're doing. I'm planning on installing a few WiFi switches, but they are not CO/ALR. So, the plan is to disconnect the old outlet device, insert the existing aluminum wire into a AlumiConn unit, then connect a new copper wire from the wifi device into the AlumiConn unit making the connection. However I have a few questions if you think you could answer: 1) Is it absolutely necessary for AlumiConn to be used if connecting the ground aluminum wire to the new outlet/switch copper ground wire? I would think YES in theory, but at the same time, hardly any current should be flowing through the ground wire, and would think a standard nut with compound or a purple nut like you described would be sufficient. But I wanted to hear your thoughts. 2) When buying copper wire to connect into the AlumiConn to make the connection with the aluminum wiring, is there a rule on the size of gauge? Does it matter if I use either of the standard #14 or #12 copper wire from the AlumiConn to the device? Or does the size of the aluminum wire gauge dictate what size of copper piece should be used when joining through the AlumiConn?

[@russiansparky4194]

All great points. Last things first :) ... Most likely your Al wiring is 10 and 12 gauge, which means that it is to be protected by 20 or 15A breakers respectively. That dictates using 12 or 14 AWG copper wire. If you can't tell the gauge of the Al wire, just look at the breaker protecting that circuit. 20A - 12AWG copper, 15A - 14AWG. Grounding wire - your instinct is right. if you are going to follow the rules to the "t", then you want to use AlumiConn on that as well, but otherwise, seeing as it does not normally carry current, you can probably get away with a regular twist connector filled with Noalox.

[@Spaudge26]

@@russiansparky4194 Great thank you very much. Realized I bought 12 gauge rather 14 for the copper and my circuit breaker is 15 amp. Better to return and get the 14 gauge wire or is it okay to have 12 gauge?

[@russiansparky4194]

@@Spaudge26 12 gauge is thicker, as you know, and therefore is harder to wrangle inside a box. If it's not too much hassle to exchange, I would certainly go with the thinner 14 gauge copper, which will be easier to work with in a long run.

[@ugpee]

My two cents, the electrochemical reaction doesn’t need electricity so even ground wire usually doesn’t have power you should not twist them together.

[@ugpee]

I heard that NSI Polaris pre insulated connectors are ok to wire al/cu

[@guitaristed21]

Thank you very much for the explanation and demo. It is one of the best I have seen!!

[@jbocaneg17611]

Great information. Still very relevant. Thank you!

[@russiansparky4194]

Thank you

[@K2teknik.]

The wago connectors do exist with paste already inserted from the manufacture, and you can get them up to 6mm2

[@walterallen8141]

Excellent video Sr.!.!.! Thx very well said, practical and to the point..

[@russiansparky4194]

Walter, thank you sir, much appreciated. Be well and God bless.

[@MusicManWes]

Very informative. Thanks!

[@lockpickingvlad]

Thanks man! I was not aware of the wago paste 👍🏻

[@mylesvargas8798]

How long does it typically take something to reach catastrophic failure?

[@Gruntled2001]

It depends on many factors, primarily on how heavy the loads are on the given receptacle. If it's just a table lamp you might never see a problem. If it's a 1500W heater, it will start smoking pretty quickly.

[@lucaslapierre7347]

So if I used a direct butt splice terminal that is copper only rated….can something go wrong? Using a CO/ALR outlet on aluminum wired house with a copper pigtail.

[@Rk76742]

No matter what you do, Cu-Al connections just doesn't work unless you are dealing with power less than 100-500w. You must have heard of thermoelectric effects or peltier effect in particular, one of the two joints will always heats up causing oxidation even faster. the problem arises when you are dealing with power above 10kVA because the line losses adds up to your bill, although not much because here losses are proportional to current and not square of current( I^2R) but still in big house it's cheaper to replace aluminum wire altogether than paying for losses over time.

[@h8GW]

You can probably just solder them together, as long as you're using soldering flux.

[@kpehgejlb4674]

Hi Zaurbek! Verty useful and intresting video! Thank you!!

[@russiansparky4194]

Vasiliy, thank you my friend!

[@Phil-D83]

In North America, only the black 63 and 65 marrets, the purple marrets, and the king connectors are allowed. Wago is not certified here for alumium, even with the goop.

[@carold.7907]

I was going to buy these and use it with the oxidation cream but instead I found IDEAL set screw #11 vibration resistant wire connectors which screws in. I need more info!!! I'll be joining a very short 12 guage aluminum wire to 14 guage copper wire. Done this before but with the purple marrette.

[@scottthomas3792]

Years ago, I rented a house with aluminum wiring...at that time ('80s), finding co/alr outlets and switches was easy. I used an antioxidant coating suggested by the hardware store. I replaced a ceiling light, and the new one had stranded copper leads. I tinned them with solder, shoved the antioxidant gunk in a wire nut, put it all together. Never had any problems the three years I was there. As I understand it, the early aluminum wiring had the majority of the problems, and these were ironed out by the '70s, but it had a bad reputation, and insurance companies don't like it at all...

[@MaxQ10001]

Isn't it simpler to add the paste snd crimp on a ferrule?

[@Gruntled2001]

Probably, but there are no certified ("listed") ferrules sold in the US market for solid aluminum...

[@Mr-Chris]

Good video! I am currently starting a project of pigtailing all of my outlets, switches, junctions, and light fixtures with Aluminconn using a torque screw driver I bought on Amazon. My question is what is your opinion on using a device like Aluminconn for ground wires at each outlet/junction? I know the manufacture recommends it (obviously it will make them more $$)... but I don't feel like it's necessary to use alumincons for ground wires and I have been twisting them together. Also, my old outlet boxes are small and space is a primum so it would be hard to fit 3 pigtails in some of them. Since my Ground Aluminum wire is already exposed inside the box without a sheathing , it kinda feels like it won't benefit form it. Obviously Hot and Neutral wires need it. For each new connection, I have been cutting off the used tips of the old aluminum wires and stripping it to get a fresh wire contact in the Alumincon, then torqueing it to spec... but what you think about doing all of that for Ground wires?

[@russiansparky4194]

The code will tell you to use a listed connector, such as AlumConn, but in reality, grounding conductors do not carry current under normal conditions, so they are not subject to the same vicious cycle as the current carrying conductors are. If I were doing this in my house and not having it inspected, I'd use standard wirenuts and Noalox to connect/pigtail aluminum grounds.

[@Mr-Chris]

​@@russiansparky4194 Thanks for the quick response, Yes I am only doing this for my own house. After 10 years living in my house built in 71, One of my outlets recently started to burn. That's when a local electrician mentioned Aluminconn. Most of my outlets in my house have been upgraded to more modern 2000's or newer outlets/switches, but I still have aluminum wire connections. In some cases, I have been leaving the aluminum Ground connected directly to the outlet undisturbed, while pigtailing each hot and neutral. I bulk purchased 3 port and 2 ports Aluminconn's from Amazon and been retrofitting each outlet/connection/switch myself using a torque screwdriver. Once I am 100% done with each switch/outlet/junction, I will do my main circuit box to each breaker and bus bar after turning off the main. I'm not a electrician, but am a seasoned DIY'er try to research as much as I can before I do a project.

[@russiansparky4194]

@@Mr-Chris I will tell you from what I have seen in the field: a knowledgeable, thorough homeowner who has done their research, will do (on average) a better job than a professional electrician. You can afford to take your time. A sparky has to be in and out while making a *decent* job, not a perfect one. You definitely sound like you know what you are doing.

[@mattheweburns]

Are you saying that it is OK to connect aluminum to copper if you use dielectric grease?

[@pineyproperties1269]

Very informative, helpful video. Thanks.

[@WiSeNhEiMeR-1369]

HOWdy R-S, ... Thanks ... Would applying NOX-OX or OX-GARD paste fill the bill ? I coat ALL of my SOLID WIRE, both COOPER & ALUMINUM, when I place them in my Circuit Breaker PANEL ... but never thought about the SWITCHES & OUTLET Connections ... Much Appreciated COOP the WiSeNhEiMeR from Richmond, INDIANA ... ...

[@matthewmctaff2022]

Excellent video

[@BrianRouse]

I have one of those houses from the sixties. I’m no electrician so I hire pros to change even outlets because I assume I’ll burn my house down if I do it myself. I like those purple caps...it looks pretty easy! But it seems like there would be very little room in the box for the outlet, extra wires, and the purple caps?

[@russiansparky4194]

For sure, it makes for a crammed box. If at all possible, I would change the box out for a deeper, or a double-gang one.

[@javidakbar74]

Very informative thank you

[@mernokimuvek]

Central and Eastern European houses wired in the early 1990s and before have aluminium wiring and they are just fine.

[@russiansparky4194]

Chances are, they are using the new, 8000 series aluminum.

[@mernokimuvek]

@@russiansparky4194 I'm not sure what alloy was available in the 1940s but there are 70+ year old houses with original wiring in pristine condition. Although we need half the current for the same power on 230 V and we didn't have backstabbed outlets and switches like in the US. We also use 3 phase so instead of a 50 A circuit like in the US we use 3x16 A.

[@russiansparky4194]

@@mernokimuvek Hard to talk about this in general, because every house is different, but I think there are two things at play: a better aluminum alloy than the infamous 1350, and unmodified, original wiring. Plus, all the things you mentioned - no backstabbed devices, higher voltage. If you don't overfuse (e.g. install a 32A fuse on 2.5 mm2 aluminum wiring), it will last. Lots of original knob-and-tube wiring is still in use in the US, and it works as long as it hasnt' been modified, added to or overfused.

[@mernokimuvek]

@@russiansparky4194 Origianl wiring is a key condition. Most problems are not from old wiring but from dumb people who modify it without knowing what they are doing.

[@surendersingal2192]

Thank you for showing interest working of outlets. I wonder you live in America but why call yourself Rusdian sparky? Thank you n good day sir

[@russiansparky4194]

Thank you Surender! Russia is where I was born, and "sparky" is a humorous way they call an electrician in America. Of course, a good electrician tries NOT to make sparks, that's why it's a joking way to refer to one.

[@surendersingal2192]

Thank you for being humorous. We need more people like you to eradicate dictatorial darkness .

[@michaelsadach5401]

I am doing a solar project. My feed has to be rated for 200 amps. Can I use aluminum mobile home cable 2-2-2-4 ? Some say it is rated for 100 amps only even though it is 2 gage, why is that?

[@LibertyDIY]

200 amp aluminum service wire would be 4/0 4/0 4/0 2/0

[@michaelsadach5401]

@@LibertyDIY thank you. Job is done. Used 2/0 . What a learning experience lol. Have a great day

[@2010Zanoza2]

There are no original Wago connectors with the paste integrated. My letters to the Wago representatives say that no 2273-243 and the similar are manufactured by an original Wago. They say that only way to connect AL wires is usage of 2273 or 222 connectors together with the 249-130 paste. And the 222 connectors are not marked for AL wires but approves in the letter from Wago to use with the paste also. Currently Wago has a huge mess on the their site and in all local stores across countries, cause stores sell 2273-243 and the similar connectors that are not approved by Wago and deleted from their web site.

[@craig156]

So they are saying that you can use the Wago connectors for pig tailing aluminum and copper if you use the paste? Confused on what connector since I can't find any listing for 2273-243 or 2273-222. Ok to clarify, I just got off the phone with a Wago rep in U.S. (800-346-7245) who said these are not approved for the U.S. only Europe. I guess you could use them if you could find them they are just not UL approved here.

[@designthinkingwithgian]

Thank you for sharing. When do you recommend it would be best to rewire the whole system in the house? Is that the most effective option?

[@Gruntled2001]

Of course, rewiring to modern standards, using modern materials is always best, but you have to see if you have the budget for the rewire and to repair walls, floors and ceilings that will inevitably have to be cut and opened during the rewire. That can run up to tens of thousands of dollars, which will make repairing the ends of the cable using the methods you saw here a more attractive option. You can do an "in between", and run new wiring just to appliances that draw a lot of power, and let light receptacle loads and lighting stay on the existing wiring.

[@estevaness]

What about circuit breakers with aluminum wiring circuits.. which most breakers are listed Al/Cu ? Would those need the listed wire connectors? Or?

[@Gruntled2001]

Most breakers are listed Al/Cu, but if you have ones that are not, just connect a copper "pigtail" to the breaker and connect the aluminum wire to that pigtail using a listed al/cu connector. Yes, it is OK to make splices within a breaker panel :)

[@tgmct]

OK, I'm late to dinner but I believe some comments are appropriate. First and foremost, work with aluminum romex should be referred to a licensed electrician. Any mistake is just too dangerous when things go wrong. Next, Picturing this in a plastic box. Really? I would personally only use a steel box where it has a much better chance of surviving any mechanical damage or internal fire. Torqueing ALL screw connectors is critical! Not just the fact that it's done, but the actual torque used. Don't use Wago connectors and particularly their knock-offs!

[@delcli7165]

I work repairing aluminum wire every day. We often see the PURPLE WIRE NUTS burnt out. DO NOT use purple wire nuts, they do not fix it appropriately. I would suggest Copalum crimping if available in your area.

[@volkov956]

i seen it as well when a junction box is made between in circuit i have found them melted but still functioning aka didn't know there was an issue was in junction box working on something else.

[@Gma7788]

Stereo receivers and car Audio radios are all aluminium. Car chassis are steel. So you now need a copper car chassis. You must buy a home stereo made of copper. Home HiFi stereos are all aluminium. Power lead connection fittings are BRASS. WORLD FAMOUS Marshall guitar amplifiers are made of aluminium. U full of sh$t.

[@Elektromontazh_Smolensk]

Заур родной!!! I do not speak . I got it.

[@hankkline7300]

Why would you use #12 copper NM wire (20A rated) with #12 Aluminum wire (15A rated) ?

[@xorbe2]

You can have a 15A aluminum supply dump into a 20A capable copper pigtail. Sometimes using same wire gauge makes life easier, and it doesn't hurt in this instance.

[@Vanilla_Icecream1231]

Yeah it’s not really big deal but you can just pigtail 14 copper to 12 aluminum

[@hankkline7300]

@@Vanilla_Icecream1231 The CPSC states that there is NO SAFE WAY TO CONNECT COPPER WIRE TO ALUMINIUM. don't want to risk my life in a purple 4$ wire nut.

[@Vanilla_Icecream1231]

@@hankkline7300 not true in Canada it is safe enough to use a marrete 63 or 65 which are made of an alloy compatible with both as long as you apply antioxidant to the wire this is as close to perfect as you can get other than replacing the wire which although best option is costly and time consuming I understand why they say it's not safe but it's just not a great thing to do

[@hankkline7300]

@@Vanilla_Icecream1231 MY son bought a house after the fire, where the woman had to jump out of the second floor window. They had an electrician repair a failed outlet (aluminum wire) 10 days before. This is where the fire started. My son tore all the drywall off and rewired the entire house in copper.

[@survival_man7746]

Thanks a lot for the infos

[@gerardoblogselectric]

👍👍👍👍

[@russiansparky4194]

Thank you!!

[@mattheweburns]

All new light fixtures and switches have aluminum wiring but only provide wire nuts fully knowing that most homes have copper wiring…. I don’t understand how they are underwriter listed

[@Sparky-ww5re]

Those silvery wires you see on light fixtures and dimmer switches, are stranded copper tinned with solder. In fact if you read the instructions, it will say, "for use with copper wire only"

[@mattheweburns]

It is extremely uncommon to find connectors that you can connect aluminum to copper with and they are extremely expensive, they are never included with fixtures that use aluminum wiring fully knowing that most folks have copper wires in their homes. I really don’t understand how they can be underwriter listed this way somebody’s cousin probably makes these connectors I wonder who

[@robertmcgehee2276]

Wires that come on a fixture may APPEAR to be aluminum but they are NOT. They are stranded copper wires (they are "tinned" that's why they are silver in color)

[@pika9985]

greeting from 2021

[@aplushomeexperts]

You can not use wire nuts to put copper and aluminum wire together - in any way shape or form. Just use aluminum rated outlets and switches and then you don't have to pigtail. Have lots of pics I can send you with melted wire nuts on copper and aluminum connections. You are taking a simple process and making it confusing!!!

[@vidupload4578]

Oh, really? How did these manufacturers get their listings then? Please do show examples where a listed Cu-Al twist or bus connector failed - then we'll talk. Sure, if you put any old wirenut (which BTW is a trademark of one given company) on a copper-aluminum connector, yeah, it will fail, but a listed connector designed for it?

[@aplushomeexperts]

www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/516.pdf Consumer Product Safety Commission publication on working with aluminum wiring. Just scroll down to the wire nut section. I have actual pictures for your reference from multiple houses. Just put your email up and I'll send to you!!

[@Gruntled2001]

@@aplushomeexperts I don't think this video advocates for using regular wirenuts to join copper and aluminum. That is a bad idea, and nobody here argues with that. The document that you referenced actually refers to the same "copalum" connectors shown in this video.

[@danstheman33]

​@@Gruntled2001 No, the Copalum system refers to a special type of crimp-on connector and tool, which has nothing to do with anything mentioned in this video. The document is quite clear about that. The document also mentions Alumiconn connectors which are shown in this video (the mini bus bar, not the wire nuts), but doesn't exactly give a glowing endorsement: 'The AlumiConn connector has performed well in initial tests, but is too new to have developed a significant long-term safe performance history as the COPALUM repair.'

[@kori_88]

Just use ox guard. It’s fine.

[@travisvaughan8838]

As a master electrician I just don’t even work on houses with aluminum unless I can rewire it all

[@kori_88]

Good for you. Star sticker for you.

[@travisvaughan8838]

@@kori_88 more like 8 years of on the job training an multiple exams as well as years of continuous education I’ll take my star sticker right next my my salary I earned

[@mattheweburns]

Copper oxidizes green

[@TheGrantourismo]

Aluminium!

[@Gruntled2001]

If you are British, then yes, Aluminium. If you are American, then it's Aluminum. This word divergence appeared in the 19th century.

[@badtater2]

Paste and too many multiple connections increasing chances of shorts....nope scrap the aluminum wiring go to copper wiring...and no homeowners insurance company's will not insure a home with aluminum wiring.🇺🇲😀👍

[@p098098098]

ruasian ? Lol no thanks!

[@wswillett]

This guy is giving wrong information for North America....Haiti or Puerto Rico.....not the USA and Canada