Is Captain Kirk Actually a Womanizer?

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[@StormsparkPegasus]

It makes perfect sense in the story for Kelvin Kirk to be the drastically different person he is. Prime Kirk grew up with his father, who was a very positive influence, and even lived to see him become captain of the Enterprise. Kelvin Kirk's father was killed before he was born, and he grew up with multiple abusive stepdads, with no positive role models, so he became much more of a delinqent.

[@blueoutrun]

I think the image of Kirk as a womanizer really came out of the context of the 1960s. Considering that married couples weren't even depicted sharing the same bed on television in the 1950s, it was really radical that Star Trek not only had a "free love" aesthetic (tamed down for television, but the symbolism and innuendo was still there) but also that Kirk's love interests were in control of their sexuality and often powerful in their own right. No doubt that this came from Roddenberry's own polyamorous lifestyle and attraction to strong women. It was scandalous back then and filtered into pop culture with that framing, but it is tame compared to the level of tolerance and acceptance we have today.

[@imachavel]

Also Kirk falls in love with a different woman in every episode. So he appears a serious womanizer. But he also seems to grant them extreme power in terms of the feeling of responsibility of being in love with a star ship captain.

[@Globovoyeur]

The 1960s were the start of the sexual revolution, hippie culture, and the time of the rise of Playboy magazine. Many TV shows of this era reflected the free-love ethos -- or at least nodded to it. I remember an episode of Hawaiian Eye that I think is typical. One of the two male leads (played by Anthony Eisley IIRC) is telling a female client how he's wrapped up her case. She breathes, "Oh, you're wonderful!" and they immediately start smooching. Things were different then.

[@colindunnigan8621]

"Kif! I have mated with a woman!"

[@LordBloodraven]

Kif: "(groans) Very good, sir. Shall I inform he crew?"

[@Tazkar]

"You're the only woman who's ever loved me!" "I never loved you!" "...I meant physically!"

[@mrmadness2699]

As a Ferengi, I applaud that your woman is silent and plays whatever card game you want her to. BUT really! I saw her sleeves; you let her wear clothes!? I'll never get Hu-Mans.

[@KrisRN23935]

Hahahaha

[@DiscoTimelordASD]

You sir, slay me😂

[@DeusExRequiem]

wait, would it be "make" instead of "let"? if I recall right it was implied they had no agency in their society, but I could be wrong.

[@Dargonhuman]

Hey, isn't it part of Ferengi fetish culture to make females wear clothes? Steve is just getting his kink on with his wife. I'm just surprised no Ferengi has flagged the video yet for such sexually suggestive material as a clothed female.

[@mulletmann6558]

@@Dargonhuman nope they are denied clothing. that's why they freaked out when quarks mother I think it was wore clothing...

[@BrianBuhl]

I liked the ending of this video. The only thing I would have added: Steve should have started the end blurb by putting on a pair of boots.

[@michaelj1534]

My first thought when i ended the video

[@LordBloodraven]

While The Original Series does allow us to witness many of Kirk's romantic encounters, I always considered him a serial monogamist. Kirk and the principal cast always placed a high premium on loyalty. Still, when it comes charm, when Kirk turns it on, he cranked that baby up to 11.

[@ahouyearno]

Depending on perspective, serial monogamy is a form of polygamy. 50 years ago, a serial monogamist would be considered a womanizer, and for very good reasons. Also, I don't find serial monogamy is a testament to loyalty. Quite the contrary, it shows that you'll dump your current partner the second someone new comes along. With Kirk's 24 conquests, it's impossible that a significant number of them had any real loyalty from him, without significant time dilation/travel helping him.

[@TheKingElfstone]

@@ahouyearno but, as the video describes, they cant all truly be called conquests (especially when Kirk would categorise beings that way) when more than half had little or no physicality involved.

[@MrSirwolf2001]

Kirk had one love of his life and her name was Enterprise. Women were a lovely fun little diversion.

[@vapx0075]

@@ahouyearno Great point! I think time dialation is the biggest argument against the yes verdict here. I might lmao at Steve's 'serial monogamizer' argument too, but with enough time dialition, it can work. I suppose the second best argument, is, if a relationship doesn't work, it's better to know sooner so you can move on faster. And, as mentioned in Mudd's Women, Kirk's already married to his ship, so all these relationships during his tenure on it are guaranteed doomed flings. Meaning he knows they will fail. Which brings me to the point where I have to admit that I am a complete alien to biological reasonability of Kirk's behaviour. Is it, was it, ever within the margin of reasonability? I don't know. 34yo, 24 relationships? Over one gf a year? I read a statistic for women somewhere that mentioned the number five as a max total/lifetime. That suggests to me a Kirk sort of person is probably on the higher end of the histogram. All I can ever say conclusively is the reality: it was a 1960's show and it was the easiest way to get women into a story at the time. TOS was so avante guarde, they had a hard time keeping it on the air. In context, I see nothing wrong. Out of temporal context I have a vastly different conclusion on the writing. This is only important when sharing to people who are impressionable and don't understand temporal context, much less time dialation. Be jolly careful about what you show your little ones, lest they think normal is every other week a different girl.

[@mariuslecter289]

OH MY GOD! The episode of Futurama, 300 Big Boys, has Fry become hyper accelerated after drinking 300 cups of coffee... that was a reference!

[@TheRogueEmpire]

shit...

[@Scott-J]

Mind. Blown.

[@GoGreen1977]

I once read a summary of TOS that reviewed each episode for Kirk's female relationships. For many of them he had no relationship and even ignored an attractive woman or only viewed/treated her as a professional or acted without any romantic intentions. As you say, many times when he was romancing a woman, he was under the influence of some drug or mind control or had amnesia (in one episode, anyway). Other times, he was using a woman, to put it bluntly, to save his ship/crew/mission. A few times, a woman came on to him first and, again, if it suited his immediate purposes, he took advantage of that to get out of a difficult situation. So yes, his reputation as a womanizer is overblown.

[@HowardRussell2000]

My theory on why Kirk has that rep: the episodic nature of the show-where nothing is allowed to have lasting consequences-and syndication-where the next episode would air the next day or maybe even the next hour. The deaths of Edith Keeler from "The City on the Edge of Forever", Miramanee from "The Paradise Syndrome", and Rayna from "Requiem for Methuselah" had no long term impact on him. So the episode shown immediately following one of those deaths would have Kirk back to normal and flirting with someone new. That made him look uncaring, like his feelings for them-and thus all women-were fake. Add that to the episodes where he actually did lie to women for strategic purposes, he ends up looking like a guy who will always lie about love just to get a woman into bed.

[@alanpennie8013]

James Bond in Spaaaace.

[@TheDawnofVanlife]

Well he usually lied not to get them into bed so much as to gain some plot advancing thing. If ending up in bed happened, it was fine. But to be fair he was either in-love-of-the-week or the women wanted him and he was willing to go along with it to gain whatever tactical advantage served the episode. I mean he was misogynistic a LOT, but it often had very little to do with getting in bed with the woman-of-the-episode who happened to be fixated on him cause the plot told them they had to be.

[@nala7829]

@@TheDawnofVanlife I don't think he was ever misogynist.

[@nala7829]

I'm fairly sure that it does affect him long-term - aside from his repeated issues about how he's going to die alone, including in Requiem (right after his wife AND child die). Also, I really doubt he wants to go to bed with any of the villains he charms. That's dubcon via duress at BEST, sometimes active rape when they start it.

[@vapx0075]

@@nala7829 Now I have to go watch it back over again with This question in mind. The problem is Kirk isn't the MC for me. Anyway this question, like all others, has a 1960's discount modifier on it.

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

No mention of Odona from "Mark Of Gideon"? They kiss, the scene fades to black and the next scene they are coming out of the captain's cabin, wrapped in each other's arms! Awesome framing story by the way. And a very sweet final line!

[@anniesinotte4841]

They were probably playing fizzbin 😉😉

[@ModerateHipster]

I thought this also. Especially since Kirk has a line to her father about how what happened between them was a private thing between them. Assuming I'm remembering it right. Been a while since I watched the episode.

[@daveedwardsconsulting6916]

What about him being able to overcome "Love Potion Number 9" "The Tears of Elaan of Troyius" by realizing his first love is the Enterprise?

[@pokepress]

Dave Edwards Consulting I was wondering if that would come up.

[@francoislacombe9071]

I didn't know it was possible to lose at fizbin when you are the dealer.

[@SteveShives]

Anything is possible if your faith is strong enough.

[@kurtlibengood5377]

"Above all else a God needs compassion!" Great Trek quote, great quote in general really.

[@michaeldexter5791]

It's worth noting that in Wink of an Eye, Deelah literally had to threaten Kirk's life in order to get him into bed.

[@nala7829]

Kirk's life - and the lives of his crew.

[@gimligimlass5509]

Far be it for any of us to kink shame Kirk.

[@xileets]

Heh. "There's some technobabble, but that's not important because this is Star Trek, not ST:TNG."

[@LapisAndroid17ParkRanger]

lol.

[@frankberst9849]

Yeah TNG is overall so inferior to TOS it's laughable.

[@twenty-fifth420]

@@frankberst9849 Okay so I havent seen the TOS so I am running on the assumption this is personal taste and thus not completely accurate. But as a general rule, Star Trek has terrible technobabble that blurs the line of science fiction and science fantasy. This isn’t the Expanse, it is Trek. If anything, from TNG, DS9, Lower Decks and VOY which I have seen, Trek doesnt have any hard science to compare to. If TOS was better, you could have fooled me. I am avoiding TOS due to the age of the show and it shows when I see clips and sometimes I cringe. But I am not sure if this is a mark of inferiority. Since it doesn’t seem much different then what we usually get.

[@KnaveMurdok]

HOW YOU GONNA DO THE DISHES WITH JUST ONE GLOVE, STEVE???

[@SteveShives]

You wash with one hand and dry with the other. Wax on/wax off, Mr. Miyagi style.

[@KnaveMurdok]

@@SteveShives I'm imagining this and it seems so awkward.

[@fromvegreville1977]

One of my former roommates and I had a joke about the "Kirk database", the Federation's listing of every sexually transmitted disease in the known galaxy and its impact on humans.

[@alexkaen1701]

Some more great examples 1. The Man Trap: In the first few minutes of the episode Kirk appears immune to the alien's attempts to seduce the crew, seeing a modest woman while the rest see the "one who got away". He then scolds a red shirt for flirting with said Salt Vampire 2. The Pilot: There's the myth which sums up the "Kirk sleeps with alien women", specifically that he likes green, dancing Orion slave girls. That scene is in the pilot but, here's the twist, it isn't Kirk but good old Captain Pike. Apparently the two Captains switch roles in the Kelvin universe, as far as being an alien pimp

[@bradfilippone7064]

Darnell in The Man Trap actually wore blue.

[@kev3d]

"Marta" from "Whom Gods Destroy" is a romantic interest of Kirk's is a green Orion girl.

[@nala7829]

@@kev3d Is she really a 'love interest'? She's a mentally disturbed woman who develops an obsession with him. He is clearly unsettled by it.

[@LeChaunce]

I've been saying this stuff for decades now. Thank you so very much for this video.

[@Dargonhuman]

Same. I grew up with TNG and didn't really have much interest in TOS when I was younger, so I just kind of went with what everyone else said about it and Kirk's promiscuity, but when I actually sat down to watch the series for myself I was incredibly surprised to find out most everything I'd been told or believed from rumor was false.

[@DeadYorick]

He's referring to Khan Noonien Singh in relation to "a group Kirk abandons that bites him in the ass"

[@grumpyveterannewsservice8605]

Kelvin Kirk didn't have a relationship with "Christine Chapel". That was Carol Marcus, daughter of Admiral Marcus, the true antagonist of the movie.

[@sentryzero]

Really sweet video. I’m half way through. Thanks for the videos. I’m new here, been watching for a couple of month.

[@PatrickCinderflame]

Awww, what a heartwarming and wholesome ending to a topic that could have taken a decidedly different turn

[@garethmeyrick520]

Hi Steve, really like the format of this trek actually episode. Well done

[@JoshuaHillerup]

I'm curious about the next Trek Actually, because I thought the Wrath of Khan did a good and straightforward explanation of how the Wrath of Khan is Kirk's fault.

[@KayleighBourquin]

Ditto on that

[@ThetaReactor]

Kirk was just kicking the can along with regard to Khan. If anything, he improved the Augments' situation. Instead of being frozen indefinitely for their crimes, he gave them a chance to have some sort of life on Ceti Alpha V. His mistake was keeping it a secret, so that Starfleet never realized when the accidental disaster occurs and the colony is in peril. While Khan's anger is Kirk's fault, his actions are not.

[@maureentuohy8672]

Thank you!!! I never saw Kirk as a playboy. I think he fell in Love with women and got his heart broken way more then he uses women and leaves them. He definitely used his sex appeal as a weapon when he has to. But only to save his crew and his ship. Kirk is a morale and heroic character who almost always does the right thing. PS The “Calvin” Kirk is NOT really Kirk.

[@Dargonhuman]

You bring up a good point about him getting his heart broken more than most people realize - that would explain his unhealthy fixation on the Enterprise and anthropomorphizing the ship into his overbearing "significant other" keeping him from pursuing serious romantic relationships with human (or at least humanoid) women. I could see him using his responsibility to the ship as an excuse to shield himself from future heartbreak after having so many failed romantic relationships in the past. I mean, this is all speculation of course, but there is real psychological precedent for people doing similar things in real life, i.e. a jaded businessman who uses his career as an excuse to avoid committing to a long term relationship or an emotionally damaged woman who uses her kids as a shield to keep men out of her life. If Kirk is a serial monogamist and has suffered enough emotional trauma from too many emotional relationships ending badly, it would make sense that he'd fill that emotional void with something that he thinks is safe and won't hurt him, such as his ship. If that's the case, then it makes the climax of Search for Spock even more tragic as he had to sacrifice the one thing he loved more than anyone to survive.

[@thenetherone1597]

Do Ryker (lord knows half the galaxy has)

[@JanetStarChild]

Does Lord Vader really know?

[@jameswolfe2622]

I applaud your analytics. Your 'Trek, actually' has quickly become one of my favorite KZbin channels. I look forward to listening to yours and Jason's podcast. I am not a computer

[@MichaelBlackOfficial]

How you don't have millions of subs is baffling. Great video as always. The Ensigns podcast is brilliant too!

[@renatocorvaro6924]

Great video. So when do we get "Counselor Troi Is Actually A Terrible Psychologist"?

[@rainbow2401990]

I hated her, Will, and their weird relationship.

[@DiscoTimelordASD]

I want this

[@SimonDodd3862]

Great video Steve. More of these please.

[@kingbeauregard]

Kirk is not a womanizer, but he is a sleaze. A few incidents that spring to mind: "Who Mourns for Adonais?" - shapely Leslie Parrish brings an astro-navigation report to Kick and reports that the local asteroid configuration "bucks all the odds". "Bucks 'em, eh?" Kirk responds -- a clear pun on "buxom". "The Immunity Syndrome" - Kirk is recording his log and saying how the crew is tired and would do well with some recreation on some -- shapely yeoman walks past -- beach. "The Menagerie Part 1" - Kirk and Yeoman Piper making googly-eyes at each other. I don't know whether that's sleazy in that he doesn't say anything creepy, but he's definitely sending out all kinds of vibes that he's open for business. So maybe he's a womanizer but just not good at it?

[@oftinuvielskin9020]

I feel it's implied he is a womanizer and that the audience is supposed to get that impression of him even if it's not explicitly shown.

[@FaeQueenCory]

It’s not so much that he’s a womanizer... it’s just that he’s easy.

[@brianmcwhorter2867]

That's what you call sleazy? Seriously? Were you raised by nuns?

[@wrenoldham7653]

You forgot Miri, that time he flirted with a LITERAL CHILD for half the episode. Oh but it's okay because she's actually hundreds of years old pbtthtththt

[@whowantstono8881]

And didn't get nun?

[@amazedsatsuma]

Idea for a follower up: is there anyone in Prime Trek would you consider a Womanizer? I can think of 3 other candidates. There was Tom Paris whose interactions Kes made Neelix very jealous on early Voyager. Dr. Bashir on DS9 who chase after two different Dax host, had an interesting fling with Leeta, and other single episode love interest,...oh and he loves to play a James Bond like character on the holodeck. But the real winner would be William T. Riker. A man who went Risa (aka Planet Sex) so often that Etana Jol was able to seduce and tricked him which almost almost ended with the theft of the Ent-D (The Game) and there is the episode entitled, "Conundrum" were he, while having no memories, tries to seduce Ensign Ro and Counselor Troi at the same time.

[@1monki]

Not sure Julian's a womanizer, more of a creeper, but only for a couple of seasons. Miles was always his true love, anyway.

[@amazedsatsuma]

@@masere Yea Ro was interested in Riker, but my point Riker welcome the idea of having relationships with both woman at the same time.

[@ThetaReactor]

Paris is certainly a horndog, but an honorable one. He's very conflicted when he realizes he's developed feelings for Kes, respects her choice to be with Neelix, and is mature enough to work it out and continue being a good friend. If anything, he pressures Kim into being his wingman more than he asserts himself over any woman. Bashir is just a socially awkward young man. While he pursues Dax, he doesn't do anything hostile in the course of it, and the flirting is mutual (Jadzia even tells him that if it hadn't been Worf, it would have been him). Holodeck fantasies aren't anything to worry about, unless it starts affecting other duties, as with Barclay. Riker probably comes closest. He does seem to have more of a proclivity for casual sex than most other characters we know. I wouldn't read much into Risa, as everything there seems consensual and transparent. The "Conundrum" problem is hard to analyze. Ro is at least as aggressive as he is, and while he probably should have been more upfront about the situation with Troi, the whole situation is complicated by the memory loss. Sometimes you can't apply modern (human) moral values to the characters, either. Phlox, for example.

[@jasonfenton8250]

@@1monki What about Garak you monster?

[@tifforo1]

I actually felt like Troi had more love interests than Riker, but she wasn't as crazy about it as he was, with the "have sex with some woman the audience has never seen before on Risa and then let her convince me to play a mind control game and take it back to the Enterprise". I didn't actually count to compare, though. If we're including villains, Gul Dukat is almost certainly a womanizer.

[@amazedsatsuma]

15:51 Agreed that Beyond is were Kelvin Kirk was able to move past some of his over simplified characterization seen in the first 2 films. Through to be fair with Kelvin Kirk even Picard was a bit of a hound dog in his academy days...will till he was stab in the heart (see TNG eps "Tapestry")

[@KayleighBourquin]

Getting your heart broken often kills the romance

[@sablevo]

Yeah.. It was probably the fallout from the Marcus break up that made him re-think this whole sleeping with subordinates thing.

[@rinehardt6837]

Man I love your videos they are funny and informative. Great job

[@practicalmagic9]

LOVE this chance to "engage" with you and other patrons, Steve! :D

[@thechristianarchist662]

I just discovered your channel a couple of days ago (through your video on "Kidnapped for Christ"), and I have since been obsessively watching your Star Trek videos. I may have found my new favorite channel.

[@DiscoTimelordASD]

You've actually changed my opinion on him, thank you. I forget sometimes that the time period also would effect the type of show material produced.

[@docstrangelove1347]

I recently started another Trekathon after rewatching the movies. What struck me most in TOS S1 was just how much Kirk is the opposite of internet meme Kirk. He gets a little more swashbuckling in S2 and in S3 he is paired with another woman almost every other episode--but especially in S1, it struck me how reasonable, calm and charming he is (charming in the general, not just the romantic sense). Most of the time he is very rational and often actually speaks with a calm, even quiet voice. I love S1 Kirk. I understand that Kelvin Kirk has a very different background, that the different turn his life has taken literally from the moment of his birth has made him a different character. Yet I can't get rid of the feeling that he's modelled after internet meme Kirk and I don't like that.

[@brett123]

Steve this was really top notch!

[@texasyojimbo]

That was cute.

[@Jake-co7rt]

Thanks for doing these. They're fun. Kirk-Prime's reputation says much more about the viewers than the character. As the primary avatar or surrogate for most of the male viewers, we view the Trek universe through his eyes, AND... project our space-related fantasies onto him. So, y'know... 3-fingers pointed back, guys. And I'm no exception. I grew up with these. Growing up includes puberty. 'Nuff said. As for Kelvin-Kirk: The difference between Kirk-Prime and Kelvin-Kirk is consistent with all the other stuff that's wrong with the "Kelvin Timeline." The "let's see if we can think of a better way out of this" philosophy of the original was thrown out, in favor of a "Woo-Hoo! Phaser in hand, brain in neutral!" approach (with lots of cool explosions!). So naturally, Kelvin-Kirk is less Super-Ego, more Id, and acts more like the leader of a biker-gang, from a badly written "gritty" TV show, than a ship-captain (even one patterned in the early 1960s). But that's roughly what one should expect from a cannon in which Spock (Old Spock) is content to shrug off the destruction of the timeline he spent half his career protecting, in favor of one in which his home-world no longer exists, and all the narrowly averted, quadrant-wide, galaxy-wide or occasionally UNIVERSE-wide catastrophes will have to be averted AGAIN, with no guarantee of success, by a crew that's less trained, less prepared, and more volatile. I shudder to think of how the Kelvin-Enterprise crew would deal with the "Doomsday Machine," the creatures in "Operation Annihilate," the Klingon Empire as a whole, the Kelvins (the ones from Andromeda) or (Gods help us!) Lazarus ("The Alternative Factor"), to say nothing of all the similarly scaled problems encountered throughout the other later series, or new dangers arising within the altered version of the Federation. That was a nice galaxy and/or universe we used to have. Oh well. You win some, you lose some. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Good thing it's all fictional. (c: Of course, I'd probably sleep better if reality felt a bit less like the Kelvin-Timeline... or possibly the Mirror-Mirror universe.

[@coreydonaldson3303]

Pretty cool and interesting Trek Actually episode Steve & Ashley !

[@williamsofko6840]

One small Rand note: My first Star Trek memory (not the first episode I saw) was a couple of random crewmen passing Janice Rand in a corridor and one of them mentioning, "Wow, I wish I had my own yeoman!". This was almost immediately debunked, with Kirk saying he was committed to the Enterprise, and Rand looking wistfully at him.

[@jeremyewing7180]

Kirk couldn't pursue a relationship with Lenore Karidian because she is in a long distance relationship with Ensign Steve/"Riker." I can understand the confusion about this, as it is missing from Memory Alpha for some reason.

[@davidweihe6052]

We'll just ignore the serial killing to ensure the safety of her father, who killed half the colony to avoid a famine that never would have happened, anyway. Defending someone guilty of Crimes Against Humanity by killing those who could identify him hardly makes her good relationship material, especially for a witness.

[@hypatiastanhope4716]

💖 another great vid 🖖 thank you Steve

[@MissMdubs]

I think it's less that Kirk is a womaniser and more that Gene Roddenberry had a thing about sex in space. From a literary perspective it's consistent with the close interest in human biology, DNA and its boundaries in science fiction at the time. From a contemporaneous perspective he was a free-love 60s type with an optimistic world view for the show, so it's not really surprising sexually alluring women feature heavily, and Kirk is the main protagonist after all. This preoccupation with biology is continued in other series with inter-species relationships framed more as an exploration of intercultural or interracial relationships. This is however also expanded into wider explorations such as inherited telepathy, male pregnancies from insemination BY alien females, and other sex and DNA related biology topics. It's all quite tame for television compared to what Roddenberry probably really wanted to write about, and what did get explored more directly later on.

[@davidweihe6052]

Also, the role was conceived as Hornblower In Space, and women threw themselves at Hornblower, recognizing him as good husband or baby-daddy material even when he was spending all those months on no pay, making up for the months that he was paid as a Commander while his brevet promotion from Lieutenant wasn't confirmed.

[@tcsomb]

So, Kirk is like Jason of The Argonauts. Sometimes he seduces women for strategic purposes such as with Jason and Medea.

[@barbreader]

You don't understand 1960s signaling. Married couples were shown in separate beds. Kirk's behavior IMPLIED a lot more than was shown. But then, I watched TOS first run, I'm old.

[@brynpookc1127]

Me too being old and watching the original airing. At 15, Star Trek seemed very risqué!

[@mattjohnston2]

6:47 "A jack above a 7" ...wait, what? 😆

[@juliusbreuer5329]

Hi Steve! I like your videos and after seeing Carl Sagan's 'Cosmos' on your bookshelf, i REALLY like them! ;)

[@kittenclaws5775]

The gloved fist bump was super cute

[@JennDyer]

I love the Trek, Actually (and Not Actually) series. I grew up watching the first series with my dad in reruns and watched most of the remaining series when they came out. I dropped off during Voyager, but I'd like to watch Enterprise at some point as well as Discovery. I watched the original series again in 2016 and this year started back through STNG. I hope to get to DSN next year and I'm really looking forward to it as it's one of my favorite series.

[@B1GGR4Y]

I'd like to see you get a Jack below a seven, lol. Still making my way through your entire video history. Love the content. Thank you.

[@iamthewalrus8391]

6:45 "a jack above a seven" AKA.... A jack.

[@SteveShives]

That's a flubbed line, obviously, but I left it in because it works better than what I wrote. The rules aren't supposed to make sense, since it's a spontaneously invented game.

[@Dargonhuman]

Except on the third Thursday of the month after a rainstorm and if that month ends on a Friday, then sevens are actually higher than jacks.

[@robertt9342]

Your analysis of Kelvin Kirk makes a lot of sense given how his life deviated from Prime Kirks.

[@kagomecc461]

I looked this up. Scroll 📜 thru videos in ur uploads. Just becuz KZbin recommended the "is Star Trek preachy" 📹. That video Steve says the video we are currently watching waa next. (In the star trek related uploads)

[@TopherIsATribble]

This video made me love your channel even more

[@offtheball87]

I kind of half agree with the point here. It's not the first time I've heard it made, and I recently rewatched the entire series, keeping this in mind. While I agree that he's not overly motivated by sex or romance (certainly not as much as he's made out to be) the idea didn't spring from nothing. It seemed pretty clear that the writers wanted to insert their leading man into as many romantic situations as possible, to the point it was just about every other episode. Of greatest interest to me are the times he used romance as a strategic ploy. Deela is notable in that he actually had sex with her, but romance as a strategy, without sex, is still pretty common, and I find it far harder to hand-wave away. I could simply say this was the writers writing romance for the character, in these cases with the excuse that he did it for his ship and crew. This is certainly the case, as his behaviour here seems pretty at odds with what I'm meant to believe about his behaviour. However, if we want to talk about the character as having any agency at all, it's necessary to ignore the writers at some point, and talk about Kirk's thinking as though Kirk is a real person with needs and desires of his own, and this is certainly prevalent enough to warrant some scrutiny. The conclusion I come to is not flattering, and certainly less flattering than him sleeping around. Kirk often seems to jump to romance as a strategic ploy far too readily, without establishing first that either his other options will fail or that this option stands a better chance of success. Given that the target of his illegitimate affections was often another victim in the plot of the episode, his eagerness to seduce her comes across as downright creepy. For a fair few, this is their first experience with romance or physical intimacy, and he's exploiting their need for that, establishing his own desirability against her lifelong fealty to the episode's antagonist. If I'm being particularly critical, I might suggest that says something about Kirk's desire to be desired and to hold power over a woman, but I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions. You may argue that any of these actions is permissible when it comes to protecting his own life, or the lives of his crew, and I don't necessarily disagree with that position, but you'd need to do a lot more to establish this as the best solution to the problem than we typically see Kirk do, and the repeated nature of this does suggest a pattern. Take into account also his evil double's behaviour in The Enemy Within. His evil double wasn't actually his evil double, as the good Kirk wasn't actually Kirk. Each of them was an aspect of the real Kirk's personality. Kirk, as we know him, was not in that episode for its majority. He is each of these two men, and the episode argues that he cannot function as Captain without both. I don't think the presence of violent tendencies makes Kirk a bad person - he does control those tendencies for the most part - but it is notable that one of the main focuses of his evil half throughout the episode is the forceful domination of a subordinate woman who is interested in him. If I'm being particularly critical, I might suggest that his canonical inclination towards aggressive sexuality is in part responsible for some of his other behaviour in the show, and that the excuse that he did it for his ship and crew is not exclusive to the show's writers. And to play devil's advocate, it was a different time. I don't think that's a good excuse for everything, but stick with me here. While I might watch the show in 2018 and be newly horrified at the gross misogyny and racism on display, the intent of the character was a flawed but ultimately progressive man. Our understanding of what that looks like may have changed, but that is what he's meant to be. His interactions with women are meant to be, for the most part, noble, his intentions clean. This may have been better understood at the time the show was airing, with less needed to establish that this was the correct course of action in all these cases. Contemporary audience may have seen his general progressive attitude and known to interpret his actions generously, while I, watching it now, see more of his faults, and am less ready to excuse his behaviour with the evidence provided. And to not play devil's advocate once again, even acknowledging that, it is worth pointing out the flaws in the show. It fell short, often, of its progressive ideals, and it's okay to talk about that. Kirk's manipulation of the sexual desires of inexperienced women is something that should be pointed out as bad. Star Trek and Kirk hold a special place in the hearts of many well-meaning people, and it's important to recognise its imperfections, despite its good intentions. There are a lot of adults who grew up with this show, who love it, and who also grew up with a warped idea of consent, and for those people, myself included, I think Kirk it's important to point out the ways Kirk's romantic interactions are terrible. Off screen, he may have been a respectful, attentive, generous partner, but on screen, he's often manipulative and downright abusive, however it was meant to come across.

[@MrKennymart]

I can think of (only) 2 times Kirk abused a woman's inexperience to take advantage of the situation, and the first wasn't even a woman but a robot. Andrea was manipulated that way, but being a robot one has to consider if Kirk could even see it as a person. The other was Shanna, and that interaction was definitely creepy and disturbing. But by and large, Kirk was willing to manipulate just as good as he got when women were willing to manipulate him. Otherwise, he was deeply attracted to strong, self-sufficient, professional, independent women -- women he could have meaningful conversations with and who could only be seen as equals. These were women who were making things happen, who had their own careers, not women who could be manipulated.

[@-pancakes7205]

People's opinion of Kirk is what i think mainly through references in pop culture, he was by the book, and did for the most part follow orders. He wasn't really a womanizer but for some reason the space cowboy is what people who didn't watch TOS thought of him.

[@shibolinemress8913]

I bet some people called him Maurice... ;-)

[@XandraHomes]

when you say Kirk tries to get with Chapel in Into Darkness, you mean Carol (Wallace) Marcus right??

[@alicetremain7366]

The woman shown in her underwear makes a comment to the effect that her friend Chapel told her she (Chapel) left the Enterprise because Kirk was putting the moves on her or used her (sorry, don't remember the words).

[@Serai3]

You didn't notice that at the same time Kirk's pulling his boots on, Deela's _combing her hair?_ That's a pretty telling sign, too.

[@71kaye]

love this. have that same record/tape/cd etc player. same too on how I came to love Star Trek. 1st movies, then STNG which I watched a bit too religiously. Finally reruns with rentals on the original series in my 20's.

[@rainbow2401990]

I find the original Kirk much creepier than Kelvin Kirk. The new Kirk might be having many sexual encounters but he is much more respectful to women in other situations. The original Kirk feels like a guy who can't express himself. I suppose that's because of when his character was created. Back then, having more than 2 or 3 relationships made you a "bad boy" but being a total creep with your employees and coworkers was just fine. That's because back then people still considered women with jobs to be whores and housewives to be great ladies.

[@andymac4883]

Well... Sort of. Though it was never in the final movie, the original intent with Kelvin Kirk sleeping with that Orion girl was so that he could get her to introduce the cheat code into the Kobayashi Maru sim, which isn't the best move. Of course, the scenes about that ended up being deleted, so one can disregard them, but then there's the supposed fling with Christine Chapel, which ended up with Chapel transferring from the flagship to the arse-end of nowhere and being described as 'much happier', as I recall. While Kirk doesn't even remember her. Honestly, I'd much rather just...skip over Into Darkness. On a second viewing I feel like it doesn't really bring anything to the new timeline.

[@camortie]

Another great video, so good that I made me think of a couple of things. First off is the major difference between Kirk in the prime and kelven lines, that being George kirk. In the prime line Kirk had his father to teach him the important things, like how yo treat women, from a Male pespective,, while the kelven Kirk only had his jerk uncle to teach him. Prime spock even tells kelven Kirk how important George was in prime Kirk's life (btw, if you have not read it before you should read the novel Best Destiny by Diana Carey. It tells the story about young Jim Kirk's first real adventure in space, and he became the man that we all know. Surprisingly if not for that trip into space he might have ended up very close to his kelven counterpart). The Second, is something I remember from the alien voices production of spock vs q the sequel. In it spock and q have their personalities swapped, and spock says something that makes q reply "Nowonder Kirk bagged all the babes." To which spock replies "That's what you think."

[@Utomneian]

Cpt. Kirk is like Mr. Peanutbutter, lol xD Cpt. Peanutbutter

[@shibolinemress8913]

Great video, as always! Just one little note: In "Bread and Circusses" it's obvious that Kirk slept with Drusilla, but it's not explicitly shown. Kirk probably hoped to use this encounter strategically toward finding some means of escape. Besides, the Proconsul practically ordered her to sleep with him.

[@KnightsaysNi]

When in faux Rome...

[@MrKennymart]

I have to disagree. Kirk was a prisoner -- he was expecting some kind of trickery from his captor. He would expect to either be walked in on or an attempt to be made to somehow manipulate him from the situation -- he would not consider it a safe circumstance to drop his pants. And at the end his shirt wasn't even wrinkled!

[@alexwright4930]

And now I've just learnt where the title and some of the plot of Voyager episode "Blink of an Eye" came from.

[@Best_Stressed]

The worst problem with the Kelvin timeline is that JJ Abrams was so incurious about actual Trek that he simply put all the pop culture stereotypes about it on screen in their rawest form. It's such a shame, too, because the casting is EXCELLENT. Quinto, Saldana, Urban, Yelchin - all fantastic iterations of their characters when not bogged down by bad writing or stupid plots. Chris Pine could have been a fantastic classic Kirk (it's basically the character he plays in Wonder Woman. Or, if they'd reimagined him based on an interesting new concept, the way they did Scotty, that had potential too. But instead, JJ just did the stupidest, laziest thing: he filmed the stereotype with a heaping helping of unutterably boring cliched bad boy daddy issues shoved into a poorly thought out hero's journey plot.

[@williamj.dovejr.8613]

That Mad Men music is perfect!

[@anubis2814]

I have that exact same radio

[@GoGreen1977]

Growing up in the 1960s, I watched shows like the "Wild, Wild West" and "The Man from U.N.C.L.E." as well as "Star Trek". James West and Napolean Solo were frequently charming, seducing, and chasing women characters almost every week. When James Kirk came along, it wasn't that remarkable that Kirk flirted, kissed, seduced or tried to seduce various women depending upon the plot if he needed help from a certain woman to get out of a tight spot. They all did it, even more than Kirk.

[@old_arsed_eldergoth2800]

That ending- Awwww! ❤️

[@gordonlong3095]

Great video. I’m enjoying running through them all. A few commenters rightly peg Kelvin Kirk as having issues because of growing up without George in his life. I think original Kirk might have wanted to follow in his father’s footsteps and marry a nice Starfleet officer like Winona. Hence, his relationships at the Academy, and original Carol was presumably in the Fleet until David came along. It’s interesting that he began dating women not in Starfleet around the time he became Captain. And his last on-screen relationship, Dr. Gillian Taylor (a few women came along in the novels, and I’m not counting the shapeshifter)…. Was last seen becoming a Starfleet officer (or at least getting modernized training from Starfleet).

[@SisterIdaKnow]

I love that you have a hard bound copy of Cosmos by Carl Sagan on the shelf.. +100 points in any category.

[@MultiRanman]

Another great video. We should also consider the time in which he exist.

[@MrNuclearGuy]

I'd have to say that Kirk's MO is to have a committed relationship, break it off after a while, then run into them again once or twice later on. His relationship to the Enterprise is no exception. Think of it: He spends five years with her, leaves her for a promotion only to run into her again later on (The Motion Picture and The Wrath of Khan). He eventually uses her to achieve a strategic purpose (The Search for Spock). But, that's just my two cents.

[@PapaBearCDXX]

The “Kirk Shot” is the ultimate finishing move.

[@bradhoehne6467]

Love seeing the book Cosmos on the shelf.

[@Trikeboy2]

The difference between Prime and Kelvin timeline in this manner is Prime Kirk grew up with his father, Kelvin Kirk didn't. George Kirk was a good influence on his son.

[@DarkPhilosopherOG]

Steve, don’t forget “Kirk the womanizer” is often used as a shorthand in other series for loose character. For example, in “Stargate: Atlantis” Rodney calls Shepherd “Captain Kirk” when he hits on a woman on Alien world.

[@SatoshiMatrix1]

I think a component of this is that people are looking at a show from the 1960s with 2018 eyes. Nowadays, Kirk was no big deal; He didn't have sex with the vast majority of his suitors. But from society POV of the 60's, OHHHH MAN DID YOU SEE HIM KISS A DIFFERENT GIRL THAN THE GIRL FROM THE PREVIOUS EPISODE? WHAT A SCANDAL! Another sci-fi show I grew up watching - Quantum Leap - had a similar concept per episode. No doubt Sam Beckett would have had a similar "reputation" had that show aired in the 60's and not the 80's.

[@johnbockelie3899]

The bumper sticker on Kirk's car read " I joined Starfleet to meet Babes."

[@johnbockelie3899]

" Braid on my sleeve, ....no warm beach to walk on."

[@Hailey_Halcyon]

You missed other "putting the boots" on moments Elaan of Troyious and Gamesters of Triskelion.

[@ADAP7IVE]

The "Women At Warp" podcast tackled this question very well on one of their first episodes a few years ago. If you haven't listened to it, I highly recommend it.

[@Sxnxjenemkwamksusnwvjsjw]

Wait a minute! I saw you in Jessie Genders video on allegories!

[@TrumbullComic]

Thank you for calling it a landing party and not an away team.

[@anirudhviswanathan3986]

Well, NO!! That honor goes to Riker, who will bone anything that is determined as "female"!!!

[@Dargonhuman]

Even a few things that aren't definitively female - holograms and androgynous aliens particularly.

[@daveedwardsconsulting6916]

No, he was just every nerds fantasy at the time.

[@williamj.dovejr.8613]

" I intend to keep her! " - Kirk " It's a obsession, Jim. " Star Trek: The Motion Picture.

[@Vonn_Loren]

Loved the framing device on this one and how you presented the case for the Kirks' (non)-womanizing ways. :)

[@orutakawatenga8820]

And to further the objections to the stereotype or label, Kelvin Kirk only bedded Gaila the Orion to hack the Kobayashi Maru simulator, something Prime Kirk may very well have done.

[@coreydonaldson3303]

That's very nice of you Ashley

[@PocketBrain]

You showed Jason Evers (Rael) in "The Brain That Wouldn't Die." It looks like that movie could be the inspiration for "The Re-animator." Coincidentally, starring Trek actor Jeffrey Combs. I still say Jeffrey would perfectly fill the role of "G-man" if Half-Life were to ever come to the big screen.

[@leonsantana3646]

6:35 REDJAC! REDJAC! REDJAC!

[@lordofsparks]

I don't think Kirk exactly minds being thought of as a womanizer. One of the great things about the Kelvinverse was Chris Pine being sexy. He let Kirk be a sexual being without all the creepy uncle energy Shatner brought to the role.

[@gamernick1533]

Quite a dish yourself... do the dishes... could feel that pun coming along. Go Steve :P

[@bradkrekelberg8624]

Interesting video! Could it be that Kirk only gained this reputation (as well as "cowboy") after we see how puritanical Picard is?

[@askarsfan2011]

It's not so much that Jim Kirk is a womanizer. It's just the rest of the Star Trek captains are presented as near celibate and almost asexual. Very rarely do we see them have any romantic interests at all. Not even a lustful glimmer in the eye.