Is Cb the same note as B?

[@joshkary5040]

My music teacher in college simply said “call them enharmonic equivalents so you can sidestep the entire discussion.” He was wise beyond his years

[@whynotanyting]

but what if I _really_ feel like fighting someone today?

[@ryanphillips4123]

I was told something similar by my music teacher in middle school. That answer sat well with me despite being the argumentive type

[@santosmadrigal3702]

What kind of woke shit is that .

[@joshkary5040]

@@santosmadrigal3702 ???

[@santosmadrigal3702]

@@joshkary5040 I know all the notes . Is it just me or does everyone know the ABC'S and Twinkle twinkle little star are the same song .

[@samumohacsi]

I appreciate how you manage to be so educational and so annoying at the same time. love you.

[@Crovax]

truly a short definition of this man whole career

[@melloh6783]

Truly an artist at heart, lol

[@samumohacsi]

@Morris X Official I mean hey, sometimes you gotta ask annoying questions to get people thinkin'

[@Dark_Souls_3]

@Morris X Official recognize the full worth of. "she feels that he does not appreciate her" Similar: value respect prize cherish treasure admire hold in high regard hold in esteem rate highly think highly of think much of have a high opinion of set (great) store by 2. understand (a situation) fully; recognize the full implications of. "they failed to appreciate the pressure he was under" Similar: acknowledge recognize realize know be aware of be conscious of be cognizant of be alive to be sensitive to be alert to sympathize with understand comprehend perceive discern take on board be wise to Opposite: be unaware of Feedback

[@Dark_Souls_3]

@Morris X Official my pleasure! Let me know if you need anything else, pretty bored working from home today. Lots of people starting to take time off. Do you have any snow? What are conditions like where yku live? Stay warm!

[@saoirsedeltufo7436]

As a trombonist, the difference between Cb and B makes more sense to me than it probably does for someone coming from (say) a piano background. Vibes based!

[@northstarjakobs]

Same here as a violinist. I can totally feel the difference between notes like that (and even ones that are even more "the same" such as A# vs Bb) but just the slightest difference in the angle of my finger (not even the placement, the angle) can make the note feel more like a A# vs a Bb

[@willfulliam]

Also a trombonist. I always practice with a pitch reference. Feels good to hear correct pitches in context.

[@shenanigans-20__20]

Yes... sounds right.

[@james_subosits]

Also a trombonist here - just wanted to add that if I see an A# in a piece of music, there's a high chance I'm going to instinctively play it in 5th position instead of 1st, because the spelling of that note implies that I'm probably going to play a B natural soon. If I see a Bb, I'm probably going to play it in 1st position. Spelling matters, it gives performers clues as to what to expect or gives context to what others might be playing.

[@cringeconnoisseur6037]

As a pianist who later learned the trombone, I disagree. Enharmonics appeared everywhere in my music in order to keep consistency in complex key signatures

[@Zet237yt]

As a harpist, for me Cb and B are even played on different strings and I have a way easier time using enharmonics when the notes are written as such on the paper as well. :)

[@FireRupee]

How about Cb and B#?

[@Zet237yt]

@@FireRupee Two different strings as well and yes - this time the lower strings would have a higher pitch. :) Same goes for E# and Fb.

[@FireRupee]

@@Zet237yt Perfectly balanced, AS ALL STRINGS SHOULD BE.

[@Sheriberry1519]

@@FireRupee C flat is equivalent to C Sharp I guess going by the major 3rd system

[@bangthebanger]

That is a dangerous way to call yourself lmao

[@yetsumari]

My favorite scale is C Major, but with every note spelled as C. Root=C, 2=C double sharp, 3=C quadruple sharp, 4=C quintuple sharp, 5=C septuple sharp, 6=C nonuple sharp, 7=C undecuple sharp, 8=duodecuple sharp. Modern theory really overcomplicates things when you find out that everything is in C if you add enough accidentals to your frame of mind. Seriously though, Music Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive. Language is for communicating, and spelling C flat in the wrong context is a lesser of the same sort of failing as trying to read a C quintuple flat first inversion add 13

[@AJPMUSIC_OFFICIAL]

Yeah this is the smart and well explained version of the grumpy feeling this video gave me.

[@jhgvvetyjj6589]

How about instead of sharps and flats spell it with prime factors C=C, D=C×3²÷2³, E=C×5÷2², F=C×2²÷3, G=C×3÷2, A=C×5÷3, B=C×3×5÷2³ This will make intervals just like just ratios, major third is 5÷4, minor third is 6÷5, etc. Then for meantone use the invariant 3⁴÷2⁴÷5=1, so we can express 5 with 3⁴÷2⁴ and have C=C, D=C×3²÷2³, E=C×3⁴÷2⁶, F=C×2²÷3, G=C×3÷2, A=C×3³÷2⁴, B=C×3⁵÷2⁷, sharp=3⁷÷2¹¹, flat=2¹¹÷3⁷ This makes the circle of fifths the amount of factors of 3 that you have, with 2 being octave. For quarter comma meantone assume the exact value of 3 as 5^(1÷4)×2, and for equal temperament assume the exact value of 3 as 2^(19÷12) (so 5 becomes 2^(28÷12)).

[@spkbri]

Congratulations, you've just invented tabs! G is just an E with 3 sharps -> E-| - - 3 - -

[@AJPMUSIC_OFFICIAL]

@@spkbri 😂

[@yetsumari]

@@spkbri oh yeah. It’s all coming together.

[@docsigma]

Yes. *sees video length* …oh. Oh no

[@joekerins9772]

You starting your video description with "LET'S ARGUE!" had me expecting the appearance of a certain bespectacled melon man

[@slonk420]

No bass solo, downvoted

[@perlundgren7797]

Feeling a strong 8 to a light 9 on this reference.

[@ryan11hawk]

@@slonk420 he did do a bass solo, just not at the beginning of the video

[@slonk420]

@@ryan11hawk Bruh, I'm high and I turned off the video after I saw my opinion repeated (different keys have different notations and so they're different). Just like a Fantano video, I hear my opinion, I get super smug and I turn it off 😹😹😹😹😹😹😹😹 I'm gonna watch it later tho Unlike with Fantano videos😹😹😹

[@portagenial]

Only real Gs remember when Adam was a melon too

[@therealzilch]

This is not really a complicated question, but it has two answers. One: Cb and B are the same pitch in equal temperament, but have different harmonic functions in tonal music. Two: Cb and B have different pitches in many tunings other than equal temperament.

[@voradfils]

This is the simple and correct answer.

[@Brinta3]

Thanks! I was wondering why this needs to be a 15 minute video. Now I can stop watching after 40 seconds.

[@therealzilch]

@@Brinta3 Well, the video did supply more details.

[@tuppelkneinhoftsnaak]

Now I am sincerely curious, because I have never heard any musical piece from anywhere in the world that is not in equal temperament. If there is one, please tell me because I'm really curious how it would sound.

[@therealzilch]

@@tuppelkneinhoftsnaak There's lots of music worldwide that is not tuned to 12TET- for instance, all Balinese gamelan music. From the European tradition, everything before about 1800 was not tuned in equal temperament at the time. Here's an example: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bXjLcqiQfZujntU

[@briancase6180]

For a singer, for a violinist, for any instrument where the player gets to choose the actual pitch, they might be different.

[@zetmoon]

They are, just like F# and Gb

[@brdrnda3805]

@@zetmoon f# and g# are different on every instrument ;-P

[@zetmoon]

@@brdrnda3805 my bad

[@cogforreal5952]

@@zetmoon no you were correct . F sharp and gflat sound the same on the piano

[@zetmoon]

@@cogforreal5952 I corrected my post….

[@americansteve2585]

I like to think of this in the same way as homophones. Right and write sound the same when spoken, but they have different meanings and definitely should not be used interchangeably. Similarly, Cb and B sound the same when played on an instrument but logically you would not use B if you wrote a piece in Gb major. It all depends on context in my opinion.

[@ThisIsAYoutubeAccountAsd]

Exactly! It's like reading the sentence "I eight sum stake four dinner" vs reading "I ate some steak for dinner". If you're the one reading, the first one probably makes no sense to you since it makes no sense semantically; you'll likely have some difficulty in making it sound natural and giving it the proper inflection, as opposed to the second one. But to someone hearing you they'll probably sound the same

[@treborhuang233]

The actual *hidden* assumption of those who argue that they are the same is: "A note is solely determined by its sound." Or more boldly, "The art of music is only concerned with sound." But this is far from the case.

[@JonasFunk89]

That makes a lot of cents.

[@OliviaSNava]

@@ThisIsAKZbinAccountAsd This is an extremely good comparison that communicates the idea very very well. It's not so much that Cb and B sound different, but they are used in different contexts, and that matters.

[@amythistfire5042]

If you said "write" instead of "right" verbally, they are the same (excluding context). If music is sound, then they're the same note. Similarly, if words are sound, then homophones are the same word. Obviously, when you try to translate the sound onto paper, you're going to need the context clues of the surrounding material to write the correct word/note.

[@DeJota__]

As a drummer, I don't know what is going on.

[@matthew.eliyah]

It’s okay lil bro

[@vosoryan]

As a guitarist, same

[@niknotnikki]

​@@vosoryan Yay, enharmonics. My guitar teacher studied guitar (fairly obvious there) and music theory at the graduate level. I was doomed from the start. Seeing it on a piano definitely helps.

[@alexanderhamilton9445]

Came here to say exactly this..

[@morbidkoala8678]

From an artist’s background, this feels like how grey-yellow acts when painted over a skin color (and other weird context based colors). You would never look at it and say that it looked grey yellow - you say it’s blue. But over a purely white background, it looks grey yellow. You’d never put down grey yellow on a white background when you want blue, but you do it when you want blue on skin tones. They’re technically the same exact on the color wheel, but it depends entirely on context how that color looks within the piece.

[@ArtLenLa]

You said what I was thinking.

[@DaveMiller2]

I spent the video working hard to wrap my mind around this concept, and I got it at the end, but your analogy was far easier to understand.

[@bigshrekhorner]

That is for all colours. All colours are affected by their context, and colour theory tells us the effect of using a certain colour on a certain context Likewise, music theory gives two markings for the same pitch since context (the scale used) matters for how someone will perceive those notes. Which is why music theory calls them enharmonic equivalents (same pitch, different mark) instead of outright equal notes

[@mollykins8h]

Equal notes are noted the same. The answer is in the question, an easy no

[@scottgray4623]

This always reminds me of the time I was stuck in detention and decided to calculate note frequencies. Knowing that an octave is 2 tines the frequency of the root, and that a perfect fifth is 1.5 times the root, I started at A440, multiplied by 1.5 twelve times, then divided by 2 seven times. I got 446 and a lot of places after the decimal. I assumed I must've missed a keystroke or something, and moved on. Only years later, when I learned about different temperaments, did I realize that I was correct all along, and nobody told me it shouldn't work out to begin with.

[@MrChopsticktech]

I only had detention once, but l loved it! A whole hour to read in quiet instead of trying to drown out the noise of a house full of people! The teacher wanted to leave but l didn't!

[@tuppelkneinhoftsnaak]

For the octave you ar right!! Exactly twice the frequency. The fifth however, is not exactly 1.5, it is approximately 1.4983, which is close, but just not it.

[@tuppelkneinhoftsnaak]

At least it should still work in different temperaments, but then you will use different values. Decimal approximations are indeed not the way to go, because the human ear is logarithmic for all intends and purposes.

[@carultch]

​@@tuppelkneinhoftsnaak The fifth ideally, is exactly 1.5 times the frequency of the previous note. But, because (3/2)^12 isn't exactly a power of 2, we have to make compromises to assign frequencies to notes, which results in about a 1% error. The compromise we make with equal temperament is to prioritize the octave being exactly a doubling in frequency, and distribute the rounding error equally to all intervals. Some temperaments prioritize the first few fifths from the base note, and put the error in all the less common notes played in that key.

[@edmilham4172]

I used to sing in a VERY good chamber chorus, in which I learned great methods for tuning chords in a vocal ensemble. In a four-voice triad with a doubled root, we'd start by having the two parts singing the octave sing and hold their notes until they "locked in" to tune (hard to describe, but you know it when you feel it). Next , the part singing the fifth would come in and hold it until that locked in. Finally, the part singing the third would enter, and we'd all hold our notes until the whole chord locked in. When done this way, enharmonics in the context of different chords are certainly different pitches.

[@BondiAV]

Good point. I was also confused by this aspect, until I did the math and realized that "shoehorning" natural sounds into a well tempered scale (with 12 semitones per octave, over multiple octaves), requires deviations from natural harmonics. However, instruments that don't have keys or frets (voice included) are not constrained to the well tempered frequencies list; therefore they can "re-tune on the fly", based on natural harmonics. When that's done properly, sounds "lock in" as you called it, giving a cappella performances that unique sound that many musical instruments just cannot replicate.

[@Mike_Rogge]

Yeah, I remember when I played the viola the notes would be slightly different once I got good enough, because none of the instruments were locked in to equal temperament the better players would play in true temperament without noticing.

[@Miglow]

​@@Mike_Rogge even in a solo piece the pitches can still change based on the harmonic context. Even when staying within the same key.

[@Nightshade9999]

PROOF Cb=B# And does B#=B

[@thesoundsmith]

You're tuning your harmonics to each other and locking into that. Every 'section' does this - brass, winds, strings. The better you are, the faster you sync. And without other sections as context, you sing a 'purer' scale, your fifths are likely exact 3/2 ratio, not twelfth-root-of-two based.. It's all subconscious, when the orchestra gather, the differences resolve into divinity.

[@PFDarkside]

I’m sure Adam says this but “to”, “two” and “too” all sound the same, but they function differently. Also, a new Don Draper “nostalgia” right before Christmas. Perfect.

[@mk_rexx]

Or I think,, "row" (row a boat) and "row" (row and column). Looks the same, sounds the same, but means different.

[@Trip_mania]

But in Adam there are two A's, they have a different sound but they are the same letter.

[@ericeaton2386]

I always hear people say this and it sounds strange to me. Two and too I pronounce the same, but not “to”. If I say out loud “one, two, three,” that sounds different than “one to three.”

[@dominik2473]

​@@ericeaton2386 "To" actually has two pronunciations, stressed and unstressed, while "two" and "too" each only have one. In your example ("one to three") the "to" is unstressed therefore it's pronounced with a schwa instead of an "oo" sound.

[@dominik2473]

@@ericeaton2386 An example of a stressed "to" would be the one in "I'd love to!"

[@supechube_k]

I want a full version of the B vs C♭ tune it was so beautiful 😍

[@chiken-nugies]

just listen to creep by radiohead?

[@LizWohlSanchez]

@@Stuff-is-coolor listening to literally any rhythm changes song and getting told to be told to listen to I got rhythm. Jazz would break.

[@j.j.1064]

If I sing Cb my Jack Russell howls in B. The resolution is in tickling his belly and give him a treat.

[@michaeld3303]

Your Jack Russell needs more music theory lessons from Adam so the can learn to tune his howls to suit your moods...

[@jasonp9508]

14:04 “This feature has been thoroughly playtested.” ⭐️

[@ni1ix]

I like that audience insert, grey scale adam is way less antagonistic this time! Also, I just yesterday had this discussion with a good friend of mine. She is a classical trained clarinetist while im a more or less selftaught guitarist. My point was that I understand why the distinction is made, but as a less experienced musician, it causes way less mental overhead for me to just regard the same pitches on my instrument as the same note. I can be more rigorous in my nomenclature once i make better music xD

[@gidikalchhauser]

That is a luxury you can afford because tabulature toddler and chord symbols largely dodge this distinction. When learning to properly read standard notation, you'll notice fairly quickly that "correctly spelled" sheet music can help greatly in thinking less while sight reading.

[@methyod]

I'm just letting you know dude, you're really going to want to internalize "one per letter per scale" as early as possible, BEFORE it becomes directly relevant to what you're trying to do. This will save you huge amounts of angst in terms of unlearning bad habits down the road.

[@Gnomes_]

As a classical saxophonist (frequently dogged on by both jazz and classical musicians) it really depends on what format you're using to communicate musical ideas. My partner is an electric bassist in an indi/pop-ish band, and in that context doesn't have much use for this kind of distinction. He's an extremely skilled musician, and almost always learns songs aurally, it's just faster and more effective. On the other hand, I read almost all the music I play, as learning it aurally and having it all memorised just isn't practical. I come across Cb's surprisingly often, and they just don't bother me anymore, as it's just how a note is correctly spelled in certain contexts. Anyway, in conclusion, you can be an excellent & skilled musician regardless, it just depends on how you want to engage with music. This whole argument is a waste of time imo, we should all be practicing!

[@YuriLifeLove]

Meanwhile I don't even thinking about note/chord name while I'm playing, my brain just too slow to do something like that... P.S. Now I'm thinking about it... Actually most of the time I don't even thinking about the note name while writing music... It's very common for me to write music without knowing what key and what chords that I used... And only later when I analyze it then I know what key I'm in and what chords that I used...

[@lambdaman3228]

Better music doesn't need better nomenclature. There are mountains of fantastic music written by people who couldn't even read sheet music.

[@cl0udysky347]

the notes are like identical twins. They look and sound the same but they have different personalities, different names, different backstories, and different time births. The note depends on the context of the key. If the first twin was born first (B) they will probably end up being even the tiniest bit taller, while the second twin (Cb) will probably end up being the tiniest bit shorter. Different notes in context, same notes when heard.

[@mollykins8h]

How are they the same when it is noted differently every time?

[@bradigan]

I get what you are trying to do with that language comparison, but I think a more relevant analogy is the difference between the same letters in different words. Like the e in "vice" and "wed." The _same_ letter with different functions. Those different functions don't make the letters different. Just like how the same pitch with different functions doesn't change the qualities of that pitch. Hell, the argument you make has more to do with the quirks of even temperament than the arbitrary names we give sounds. If you were to respell the D scale as E-double-flat for the purposes of spelling B as C-flat, just changing the name of the tone does not change how it functions. You are perceiving how C-flat functions in the limited amount of keys where you are actually likely to see it in music.

[@jakedewey3686]

I and Y oftentimes made the exact same sound. Are they the same letter?

[@noonehere0987]

Gif and jiff are pronounced the same, so have two letters that sounds the same, therefore g = j? Stop trying to hamfist in language arguments when it's not clear that the purpose of letters are the same as notes.

[@Womer-i8b]

e and e are different because I said so. checkmate😎

[@iurigrang]

@@jakedewey3686 letters are the names of written structures, notes are the names of sounds. "sounding the same" does not have the same effect when talking about notes vs letters.

[@HorseEmoji]

@@noonehere0987 Is it really hamfisted? I see very much the same core point being made in your comment as the one you're replying to: The conventions of letters in words, not unlike notes/tones in music, are contextual. It doesn't matter what we call them in a vacuum. Their names and the rules we overlay on them only have meaning in the context of a greater composition and for the purpose of conveying an idea.

[@boomerbear7596]

I think they are only the same note in the same way F-sharp could be considered the same note as G-flat... what makes the note C-flat or B depends on the context in which it is being used. This issue along with a general bias towards sharper keys when dealing with major keys makes me think of that one key opposite C on the circle of fifths as F-sharp rather than G-flat... as the important IV chord of B major would actually be C-flat major were the key G-flat. Now, I would rather refer to the relative minor of that key as E-flat minor, as the leading tone of D would be C-double-sharp were it D-sharp minor instead.

[@mal2ksc]

Minor keys, because they have lots of raised 7s and 6s, generally work better written as flats when there's a choice. It tends to minimize those double sharps. Even though C major and A minor have the same key signature (none), A minor will have moments where it feels like a sharp key because of the F♯ and particularly G♯ that will be invoked in most pieces. I tend to think of Dorian as the "neutral" mode as far as this goes. D Dorian is dead center, C major is slightly flat-ish, and A minor varies from neutral to significantly sharp-ish. Incidentally, I think minor modes have a lot more untapped potential for truly new music because there _are_ so many ways to dress them up, whereas major may drift to Mixolydian or Lydian on occasion to grab the V of V or the V of IV.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

It doesn't just depend on the context but also the tuning. In equal temperament they are the same pitch, but in different tunings they are indeed different notes.

[@Mr-R.R.]

@@HappyBeezerStudios sure, but in equal temperament, they do still mean different things and "sound" different in another context, like the video explains. Both don't have to be true. If one or the other is true, it warrants the distinction

[@ValkyRiver]

In regular diatonic temperaments, Cb and B are the same if the perfect fifth is exactly 700 cents in size. If it is less than 700¢, B is lower; if it is greater than 700¢, B is higher.

[@pseudonymlifts2]

I have a pet theory that one of the reasons people like (real) string sections and lots of harmony vocals is because, unless they've been autotuned to death, those captured performances are going to stray away from gridded equal temperament intonation in a way that sounds instinctively sweeter.

[@julianbrelsford]

You're correct. I'm a violinist with experience playing in orchestras. When we're doing what we are supposed to, we hear the intonation of the whole group and adjust intervals so that chords sounds nearly perfect -- fifths, thirds etc match to the harmonic series much better than autotune (or any kind of equal temper instrument) can achieve.

[@d3tuned378]

Set LFO to free running and either sine or sample and hold. add 0.3 pitch as modulation. Sweetness, electronically.

[@MongerOfStrings8222]

Who would dare to autotune a string section?

[@DaveMiller2]

@@MongerOfStrings8222 These days, there are people who will autotune anything.

[@noneyabid]

Point: For those who didn't know...On today's modern (double-action) pedal harp, Cb and B are played using different strings. So, in a practical sense to us harpists, the difference matters. Counter-Point: We harpists use enharmonics all the time. Need a B, but the B-pedal is in the flat position? Play a Cb instead. Harp Bonus: This difference is what creates the glissando that everyone hears when they think of the harp. A C-major glissando is really B#-C-D-E-Fb-G-A-B# (etc.). It is 7 strings producing 5 pitches.

[@JohnnyArtPavlou]

Now I need a pedal steel harp. Let’s make it happen!

[@mal2ksc]

You can sometimes produce a mere four pitches as you get away from C major. C♯ D♭ E♯ F♮ G♯ A♭, and you could even pedal around on the B string as a sort of line cliché, the "My Funny Valentine" 1 ♮7 ♭7 6 passage. This might even be a reason for a composer to deliberately pick a distant key.

[@CelineOzalvo]

I love how the colors of the letters in the intro correspond to how Adam percieves the colors of each note due to his Synesthesia. Adam Neely lore!

[@charles-antoineguillemette2859]

Amazing video, well crafted, very clear explanations. This should be shared with as many music theory teachers as possible!

[@rillloudmother]

@Repent and believe in Jesus Christ non-sequitur much?

[@kathleenking47]

They are the same DEPENDING ON KEY...its like Well, and well He is well..the well is dry What I don't understand, is some music is written in F sharp, and G flat

[@willb1157]

Is it "CLEAR" because you know about it before?

[@yvesbajulaz]

@@kathleenking47 F# is a bright key, Gb is much more rounded and mellow… seeing it in a page, the flats are calmer than the sharps

[@michaelmullenfiddler]

As a violinist i "justify" notes fairly regularly to get them in better tune. As a fiddler i manipulate pitches on a microtonal level all the time, particularly when i flat a note a tiny bit more in order to "blue it" more. I don't do most of these manipulations consciously: i just hear and tweak in real time

[@mr88cet]

13:32 - Exactly! Traditional notation is designed for performance, not for precision. Piano rolls are incredibly hard to perform from, unless you’re a computer. But it’s more than that too: Arguably, lute or guitar tablature is even more-directly optimized for performance. That, to the point where its really hard to figure out what the composition sounds like without actually getting out a lute/guitar and playing it! With traditional notation, you can clearly see and hear in your mind what the music sounds like.

[@theliberation9061]

I guarantee you that if you're used to tab it's easier to hear in your head what it will sound like than sheet music ever will, because it's more efficient and contains more important information.

[@werdwerdus]

this could also be and example of a kind of cognitive bias though, i.e. you have spent countless hours learning and practicing sheet music, but you have not put equal time into tab/piano roll so it's not a fair comparison. but i still agree with you

[@arpanmukherjee4625]

I have only one complain, why not just write the note names as well. Like octave and intervals and those information are available anyway on current sheet music, but just adding the note names instead of the black fill would make it 1000 times easier to read for beginners. @Adam Neely I wish if you could make a video on this topic alone. In Indian music we do write relative note names like Sa, Re, Ga, Ma, Pa, Dha, Ni....and we still hear the inidan notation in our head. Doing this makes it incredibly easy to transpose music to any key. What is the advantage of absolute note notation?

[@greglarson4188]

People with different hand sizes can play the same guitar music using different combinations of strings. That is my issue with tablature.

[@mr88cet]

@@rockapartie, overall I’m fine with tablature to augment notation, but the downside is that it takes up about double the space on the page, compared to finger numbers.

[@tzor]

As someone who sings A Capella (barbershop style) music I am aware of the interesting complications of leaving a tempered music system to lock in the pure overtones which results in requiring to shift the note up or down depending on the intervals created by the notes around it (which when done right results in overlapping overtones and the appearance of an additional voice). The tempered piano is a compromise that allows someone to play in any key, but not all instruments (voice, violins) are strictly tempered.

[@PocketDeerBoy]

As pretty much a total beginner, i definitely find piano roll notation extremely easy to parse. I don’t have to go about learning a whole new tonal language in order to figure out which buttons to press. But viewing it as better than what already exists seems ridiculous- how would you go about printing this information? How would you put it in a readable paper format for an orchestra?

[@ragnarockerbunny]

It's difficult to not feel of two minds of this. There are definitely times when standard musical notation isn't the best way to explain something. As a guitarist, if I've heard a piece of music several times, it's slower for me to read sheet music than tabs. But if I have never heard the music before, sheet music is going to better tell me what it sounds like. But then there have been alterations to guitar tableture that does communicate that information. Guitar tableture has its own language and can even adopt things from sheet music that makes it more useful to guitar players than sheet music. There's a way to write guitar tabs that's going to make it easier for a guitarist to learn especially if they've never heard the piece. But then that information doesn't translate. It might be easier for a guitarist to learn, but if you had to teach someone else in the band how to play a melody, this altered tableture might communicate next to nothing to the flute player hired for a session gig. You'd be better of humming the melody to them. The reason there isn't a one size fits all solution is because one size doesn't fit all, but sheet music has enough crossover to have different musicians communicate infortmation to each other. And there are things that are inefficient, it biases a lot towards piano players but sometimes that's just how it is. It is very difficult to come up with a better system, hence why no one has done it before.

[@Nomen_Latinum]

Piano roll is fine for easier pieces, but for more complex piano pieces it falls short. It can't really convey complex rhythmical information (like polyrhythms, or when to play rubato) or dynamical information (for which sheet music has a whole glossary of subtly different descriptors besides the usual pp, sfz, cresc etc.).

[@thecrinjemasterjay]

@@Nomen_Latinum I agree, piano roll just really provides the bare minimum tbh and doesn’t really give any info on phrasing, or literally any kind of dynamic that you get with sheet music

[@-.a]

And how does piano roll notation convey articulations? Pedals? Dynamics? What if you use rubato? You will have to play along to a video at a constant speed, so good luck sounding like anything other than a robot. Rythms are also way easier to read with traditional music notation, as rythms are easy to recognize. Pieces played at different tempos will also look completely different, even with the same notes. Besides, having a standardized notation system that works for nearly all instruments is great If you aren't able to learn sheet music, you definitely don't have the dedication to properly learn an instrument.

[@ceticobr]

@@ragnarockerbunny interesting point. But as a classical guitarist I can read sheet music faster than tab most of the times. If most of your source of learning new music comes from sheet music it becomes second nature. Of course there are cases in which sheet music can be awkward but that is not the case for most of the classical guitar repertoire.

[@PatrickCamblin]

"...aspires upwardly..." As a non-musician I don't understand most of what Adam Neely says, but do enjoy his channel quite a lot. He possesses the vocabulary, word choices and combinations that keep you engaged, like a well written poem as you search for the deeply embedded nuggets folded into its many layers. And if I find just a nugget or three among the many, it's well worth the listen.

[@Whatismusic123]

It's kind of pretentious, it essentially just means you unconciously expect it to lead upwards. Try playing a c major scale, you'll notice that the "yearns" to resolve to C.

[@DissonantSynth]

To summarise: • Same pitch (equal tempered tuning) • Different notes (spellings) • Different aesthetic and technical functions

[@mandobrownie]

But also different pitches in just temperament tuning, which is (unintentionally or intentionally, depending on the context) used in a fair amount of musical contexts!

[@wardm4]

@@mandobrownie It's weird to talk about "just intonation" as if it were a well-defined thing though. You need some starting pitch, like A 440 to base the rest of the notes on. And then how you get to the other notes changes what frequency you get.

[@mandobrownie]

@@wardm4 Totally agree with that you're saying. Just wanted to contrast with equal temperament systems

[@aaronsearle4307]

I play baroque flute. Because baroque music was written before equal temperament was adopted, when learning baroque flute you actually learn different fingerings for, say, G# and Ab, or A# and Bb. The enharmonic notes have different fingerings to ensure the slight variations of pitch. If you google a picture of Quantz’s flute, you’ll see that it has one key for Eb and a different key for D#.

[@ValkyRiver]

Cb and B are the same if the perfect fifth is exactly 700 cents in size. If it is less than 700¢, B is lower; if it is greater than 700¢, B is higher.

[@aaronsearle4307]

Cb and B are the same pitch in 12 tone equal temperament only.

[@ValkyRiver]

@@aaronsearle4307 And in other temperaments with a fifth of 700 cents, e.g. 24-TET, 36-TET etc

[@aaronsearle4307]

Equal temperaments only.

[@ValkyRiver]

@@aaronsearle4307 Not all equal temperaments (only those with a 700 cent fifth) And also some non-equal temperaments (e.g. valotti)

[@itisnottaken4444]

As a saxophone player, this resonates with A# vs Bb. Yes on the instrument, they sound the same, but most times beginners are taught the two different fingerings due to the way they most commonly resolve. So one fingering suits flat keys “Like transitioning from Ab to Bb” and the other suits sharp keys “Like the resolution of A# to B” .

[@kaitlyn__L]

I remember annoying one of my teachers when I first noticed the various possible alternate fingerings, and to amuse myself I’d alternate between them for no reason, and she’d be all “noo bad habits”

[@relzyn5545]

There are also situations where different fingerings for what should be the same note will be slightly different. Not by anything near a half step, but enough that it can make a difference in an ensemble: Fingering 1 may be more in tune than fingering 2

[@ValkyRiver]

Cb and B are the same if the perfect fifth is exactly 700 cents in size. If it is less than 700¢, B is lower; if it is greater than 700¢, B is higher.

[@michaelmcleod6203]

And then you learn how to play your F# major scale in thirds, and you completely unlearn any distinction between the two fingerings as you fight to survive

[@itisnottaken4444]

@@michaelmcleod6203 hahahahhaa yes you do whatever you have to do. Just dont play A or E natural.

[@carlstenger5893]

Excellent video. Strong, well-reasoned argument. As a retired conductor / choir director, I can affirm that many of us in those professions will use the fixed piano tones as a “starting point” when beginning to rehearse a piece. In the case of pieces which are ultimately to be sung A cappella (or with infinitely tunable instruments), I would abandon the piano (or other keyboard instrument) as soon as the choir was sufficiently familiar with their parts so that I could properly tune the harmonies. Once the singers had the piece memorized, I’d take the sheet music away (to keep their eyes from confusing their brains). Finally, at the performance, I’d raise the singers’ starting pitches by a half tone. Using those three steps, I always got a perfectly tuned piece. (Raising the piece by a half tone caused the singers to have to “work” a tiny bit harder than usual and resulted in a performance that never - and I do mean never - ended flatter nor sharper than was intended.)

[@KaninTuzi]

I like to use Cb as shorthand when I'm just lowering all the notes or chords in a melody or chord progression by half a step on the fly (and if the original melody or chord progression contained a C). That's probably wrong, but sometimes I can't be bothered renaming everything.

[@magnuspalsson5139]

That's a pretty good example of a practical use for this idea as a gigging musician.

[@room34]

That's pretty much exactly *the* reason to use C♭.

[@mr88cet]

If by “C”you mean a C-major chord, then “Cb” would indeed be exactly that: Cb Eb Gb.

[@vincentfreddoyle7555]

Samee

[@fro29ras]

I think what people have trouble understanding is the important difference between tone (pitch) and note, especially people who play piano and guitar or those who don't read sheet music. A tone (pitch) is what we hear and a note is what we see, and sometimes they're not the same. Cb and B are the same tone (pitch), but not the same note as they're written differently. I like the alphabet argument you bring up, it makes a lot of sense since most people know the alphabet. I also like to bring up the triad argument. For example, a C major triad is written as C, E and G. Now if you want to raise this chord a half step up to C# major, we just put a "#" in front of every note. So C#, E# and G#. Switching E# for an F would break the symmetry of the chord, making it more difficult to understand. If we take the C# major triad written as C#, F and G# and flatten it back to a C major triad the chord would have to be written as C, Fb and G. Which is stupid. But suddenly this logic makes a lot more sense. Any chord that start with Cb, C or C# must consist of the alphabetical degrees C, E and G. If you insist on writing F instead of E# you should also raise the other notes by one alphabetical degree. So C becomes Db and G becomes Ab, making it a Db major chord instead. And yes, the intonation argument is 100% valid but I think it's pointless to even bring it up since a lot of people wouldn't understand what the hell you're talking about lol. There is a beautiful logic in how we write music, and we have to follow this logic to make our music readable in all keys. Of course, if you don't read music and just play by ear you don't have to give a F about this logic, which is fair to me.

[@Loweene_Ancalimon]

Cb and B are the same tone only, and only if, you're playing in 12TET. As someone in the HIP world, I never play in 12TET anymore, despite it being the norm in the larger music industry. There's so many delightful temperaments out there that deserve to be experimented with in modern music, I feel, and once you start looking into non equally tempered temperaments, that distinction of pitch and note becomes much more obvious than it is in 12TET. Plus then saying things like "E major is joyful", "B minor is patient" ect. actually starts making sense, because in 12TET all keys sound the same, because the interval between pitches is always the same.

[@fro29ras]

@@Loweene_Ancalimon I 100% agree. But since most people are unfamiliar with anything beyond 12tet it's not really a useful argument to bring up when explaining enharmonics to a more casual musician lol. I do wish more modern- especially pop musicians/composers would experiment more with different modes and tunings and stuff instead of just going with the same four chords over and over again. It sells well but my soul just can't take it anymore. It's the result of music being sold as a product rather than a craft and it makes me sad just thinking about where the industry is headed.

[@superhuman33]

just because an Ab minor is Ab, Cb, and Eb doesnt mean that Cd and B should be seen as different notes, it only means that there are different terms for the same pitch. you can think of them as the same note without being ignorant of when its a B and when its a Cb. this arguement, as a consept, is bad faith. it draws a pointless line in the sand by inventing a reason why your smarter then someone else at music edit: btw, if youre not using 12tet, then all that means is this point is even more pointless, because you wont even have a B if you already have a Cb to begin with

[@fro29ras]

@@superhuman33 Thank you for adding to my point. Cb and B are both used contextually when notating music. With emphasis on "notating". When we talk about music we can use Cb and B almost interchangeably since we're talking about the sounding pitch, which is the "same" and no one will probably point it out. However, they shouldn't be used interchangeably in music notation since the notated Cb has very different properties than the notated B. As in Ab minor (Cb) and G major (B). If one wants to dive even deeper and talk about voice leading properties and such of the different notations, you can describe the differences even further but in all honesty, who would care. This shit only matters if you're notating music (or if you play an instrument where intonation matters). Sorry for not clearing this up earlier!

[@ValkyRiver]

@@Loweene_Ancalimon Cb and B are the same if the perfect fifth is exactly 700 cents in size. If it is less than 700¢, B is lower; if it is greater than 700¢, B is higher.

[@crimsonhawk52]

I was taught to think of chords visually as all lines or all spaces on the staff. Db is a space, F and Ab are also spaces, so the fourth note in the Db7 is Cb and that's just easier for me to remember.

[@rinzfxp]

adam is the one human who entertains the intrusive anxious thoughts i have surrounding music all day

[@jimstokes6742]

Scholarly fun! Thanks for posting! I always puzzled about the black key gap before C.

[@ppvk2610]

Excellent comment

[@thedave4369]

Adam: "One fundamental standard is that every letter name must be present in alphabetical order" Germans: C D E F G A H C

[@thedave4369]

By the way: H flat it called B then so clearly: Not the same!

[@HaxxTu]

Same thing in Finland and it hurts my soul

[@syntaxlost9239]

@@thedave4369 Indeed. So a Cb is indeed an H, fight me!

[@syntaxlost9239]

@@HaxxTu Germany, the Scandic and the Slavic countries all use this convention.

[@immerwiedersonntags5744]

here in Germany this note is called "h". At the time of Guido von Arezzo (who introduced the staff system) there were two variants of the note "B": the round "B-rotundum", which is a semitone lower, and the angular "B-quadratum". In the English tradition, the "B-quadratum" became the "B", while the "B-rotundum" became the "Bb" (pronounced "B-flat"). In German (and other languages), on the other hand, the round "B-rotundum" became "B" (♭) , while the angular "B-quadratum" is now called "H" (♮) here, to make it easier to distinguish from "B -rotundum". The cause is to be found in the printing press. Many printers simply lacked the typeface of the B-quadratum (♮) , and made do with the similar-looking H.

[@mrgeorgejetson]

Best video in a long time. Glad to see Adam returning to his music theory roots.

[@jesuizanmich]

I used to play violin, and this reminds me of a (potentially bad) habit I had of playing some flats and sharps differently. No idea if it's a thing, never asked my violin teacher. I've listened to music in equal temperament all my life, but I remember things like C-flat being slightly higher pitch than B (or the equivalent 7th in whatever key you are), or sharps and flats changing depending on whether you are going up or down a scale and the key you are in.

[@kaitlyn__L]

Lots of other commenters say the same so I don’t think it was bad at all, they said violin is only played in equal temperament when accompanying a TET instrument.

[@rodrigomoraes2305]

Look at this C# from Hilary Hahn - On Bruch Concerto: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gXWtZ4qYr8ysaac - 1:17 This is intentional to create even more tension to resolve on D. Or the Eb on Zigeunerweisen op.20 By Pablo de Sarasate kzbin.info/www/bejne/h2nWZoaQiLhkqqs Look what Sarah Chang does at 0:11 - This is intentionally low Eb exactly to match the Gipsy vibes on this piece.

[@alhfgsp]

​@@rodrigomoraes2305 I'm glad someone brought this up.

[@amateurhour4394]

I remember my violin teacher explaining that the context in which a note is played will change how sharp/flat to play that note. Like an f# should be played sharper in key of G than if it's in D. With stringed instruments or any instrument where accessing notes is spectral and not discrete, you really hear the difference despite the note being the same, even if it's just a mm difference in movement!

[@JohnnyArtPavlou]

Very cool.

[@troldhaugen]

In the case of those instruments, there is no reason to call them the same note.

[@daverwob]

@@troldhaugen it's not that simple, listen to the opening of Haydn's C major violin concerto. Where you have to place the C on the first two chords of the solo part is about 1mm difference and its literally the same chord twice, just different inversions. First chord is tuned to open G and first finger D (an E), with the C on the A string (2nd finger). The second chord has the same C tuned to an open E string, and you gotta move that 2nd finger what feels like so far up it's wild. It's the perfect example of the compromise of equal temperament. Modern performers just slam heaps of vibrato so you can't hear the harmony 😂.

[@carlodesa198]

I asked a question along the same route as this many years ago. I'm so glad to see you answering it!

[@JohnnyArtPavlou]

I feel like Adam did another video on this like 18 months ago.

[@mss11235]

I remember trying to make that same philosophical point about sheet music vs. alternative notations in a KZbin comment (essay) a long time ago (may have been on one of your videos). I just want to thank you for making this point at the end. People are quick to want to know and understand the best ways of doing things SO BADLY that they often dismiss methodology simply because they do not need it [yet.] The PROBLEM is these people are often loud and irresponsible with their platforms and end up essentially spreading misinformation or at least spreading a NARROW INTERPRETATION of the information as if it was a HOLISTIC TRUTH. Thank you for the great work, Adam

[@gustavogoesgomes1863]

I started learning guitar through rocksmith. and it's amazing, it sparked my interest enough that I began to learn by myself after getting experience there. the notation they use, wich is kind of a "guitar roll", is very easy to read, and allows you to play easy to intermediate music that you never listened before on the fly. I don't even know how to read sheet music, and I can say pretty confidently that it does NOT, in ANY way, makes sheet music obsolete. that's because this "roll" notation is "physical", not "musical". what I mean by that is that it tells you how to position your hands, for example, and not what kind of sound you have to make. this means that it only serves that music in that specific instrument in that specific tuning and in that specific tempo. also, it's not as nearly as intricate as sheets, wich means that there is a LOT of information that just isn't possible to convey through "roll" notation. however, this doesn't mean that sheet makes roll obsolete, too. as I mentioned, it was literally the device that allowed me to have enough interest to explore my instrument without having to pay for lessons or just straight up giving up. each method for each need!

[@SimeonPilgrim]

This is a classic example of a “Chesterton's fence” where not understanding the why’s of something, some people want to rip it down, and others wish to leave it “in cases it is needed”. But here their are people that know why it is there. The trick is to find them, and not the over confidant people who think they know and yet do not know.

[@Ahkuji]

Before I watch the video, I have to say I played this piece for sax called caprice en forme de valse a while back. Theres a section where you had Ebs and D#s resolving to their respective Ds and Es. Although I knew they were the same pitch, it almost didn’t sound like it purely because one is going down and the other up. I liked to think of it as a musical illusion. Thus my conclusion is that they’re the same pitch, they ultimately can serve different functions. Thus aren’t the same note

[@kadavr0s]

So here's a quick summary: there is NO DIFFERENCE between B and Cb for a piano. Thanks!

[@hovis_esports]

emphasis on “for a piano”

[@mrgilbe1]

... but the pianist would play it differently

[@calvineet]

Did we watch the same video?

[@luukderuijter1332]

That's the same as saying red and blue are the same for colourblind people. Pianos are inherently tuned wrong

[@JoshuaNichollsMusic]

A. Not all music is played on the piano B. Notes will be treated differently (dynamics, articulation, trill, melisma etc) based on their harmonic function C. NOT ALL MUSIC IS PLAYED ON THE PIANO

[@sourcandee2926]

Now. Is B# the same as C?

[@TheMrTommo]

Nope. Where Cb and B aren't the same, neither are those two. Why would D# and Eb be the same, when they're not, right?

[@robinsommarstrom8705]

I'm a prog rock guy so when compose music I change keys a lot and I learned from Adam and other channels that it's often better for the reader of the sheet music to stay in one key instead of changing notation all time. So now I mainly write in C major (nice and clean) and adjust the credencials locally. My question is, should I only use sharps or flats or should I use them both depending on their harmonic function?

[@lydiawatkins3441]

Speaking from my own experience, I would find it easier to understand if you use both depending on harmonic function; it tells me more about the context and function of each note, and its relationship to the notes around it.

[@methatis3013]

Use both sharps, flats and naturals. All depending on the context. Also keep in mind that different keys have way different colors to them. C major will just not sound the same as G major for example. Modulations can also enrich your music a lot

[@FueganTV]

Use them both. Music that only uses flats or sharps will only confuse the informed reader. For example, you would certainly use flats for diatonic third and sixth degrees in G minor, but a sharp for the leading tone. If you notate it as G flat, the music will stop making any sense (also that will ruin the readability of chords, in this case the five chord).

[@katrinabryce]

I think you are probably asking the wrong question. If you want to only write in C major, then I'm not going to judge your artistic choices, you do you. There is of course nothing wrong with C major. But, as for notes, if it is for example a G♭, write G♭. If it is F♯, then write F♯. As explained in the video, they are not the same note. Even on a keyboard instrument where you have a limited number of note-approximations available, context matters.

[@adriancruz2822]

It can depend on what instrument it is, and whether the purpose of your sheet is for becoming intimately familiar with every facet of the composition, or if the sheet will be used for sight reading during performance. In the former case, be as accurate as possible. In the latter case, what will make it easier --- especially for instruments which are playing mostly one note at a time or maybe playing a melody where Notes are playing at the same time like with power chords or thirds --- you'll just want to basically take it note by note so that the intervals between each successive note in the melody are as easy to recognize as possible. What that means in practice is basically to spell things as minor Third distance rather than augmented second distance because minor thirds are much more familiar to sight readers, same with a diminished fourth and a major third. In that case what is "correct spelling" doesn't matter, just what will help them get from one note to the next. Different performers will have different preferences, but this is a pattern I've noticed. It is always worthwhile to ask a performer's preferences on this, because obviously people are different. It may be worthwhile to just give them both versions and allow them to decide which is more useful to them individually, I dunno.

[@georgeb.wolffsohn30]

In an equal tempered tuned instrument, yes. Vocally there can be adjustments depending on voice leading and harmonic function of the note.

[@clc2432]

Seems like a complicated way of giving a simple answer: the difference between Cb and B is *harmonic context*. Although, the review of math was fun. :)

[@m4r1o148]

Well, in the context of an instrument with pre-defined pitches, yes. But for something like a violin, trombone, or a human voice, there is definitely a more tangible difference between the notes.

[@k012957]

In barbershop-style singing, in the best quartets one can really hear the difference between B and C-flat (and other occurrences of similar "shared" notes). The emphasis on chord "ringing" truly forces this. Oh, and BTW, your Bass-Face is so precious.

[@ValkyRiver]

Cb and B are the same if the perfect fifth is exactly 700 cents in size. If it is less than 700¢, B is lower; if it is greater than 700¢, B is higher.

[@ALtheDoctorWho]

When I started playing guitar I never gave it much thought. However in High school I had piano & harmony and then I recalled the teacher explaining it very much the way you did. At that time I played by ear so it was to much trouble to go so deep into theory. Being dyslexic Once something becomes too complicated to follow the easiest path for me was to listen. c];-)

[@Ratigan2]

that emoji looks so old school... i like it.

[@Tom-fb4gz]

That was the best KZbin video I’ve ever seen. Excellent analysis and explanation. Bravo and thank you.

[@rexen7732]

As someone who plays a lot of 31TET, my immediate reaction was "no they're not!" 😂

[@Thejohnnymanc]

As an artist, this reminds me of color theory. If you take one color and surround it with two different sets of colors (light vs dark, complementary vs analogous), you will completely change the feel and properties of that color to the point where they can look like two very different hues. The fact that they're technically the same color is somewhat irrelevant, because their function and how they work with the other colors is what's important.

[@troldhaugen]

That's a good analogy for equal-tempered keyboards, but not for the voice and other instruments. In the latter case, the notes are literally different.

[@kaitlyn__L]

@@troldhaugen the same distinction applies in the colour world too. For digital painting the RGB values may be the same, but for physical painting the way you’re mixing your hues and shades will change and the reflectivity etc may well end up different at the end.

[@troldhaugen]

@@kaitlyn__L Interesting! In the case of music, before the invention of the equal tempered keyboard, I can't imagine any case where B and C flat could be the same in any sense, theoretically, physically, or in performance, unless musicians just happened to play according to equal temperament by random chance. I might be wrong about instruments such as brass instruments that don't have much pitch flexibility. If I'm understanding your analogy, not only the "painted" pitches, but also the "digital RGB values" of B and C flat were different before equal temperament, and still would be today if we didn't accomodate equal tempered keyboards.

[@kaitlyn__L]

@@troldhaugen I’d say that’s accurate. Of course every analogy breaks down if examined too far, since in the colour theory example you’re looking at functionality rather than specific eye cone activations (which is what an RGB screen cares about), and indeed the same hue with different textures, reflectivities, etc could still technically be the same hue when placed next to each other unlike in the just intonation example. But one would still be brighter, shinier, have more “depth”, etc. Just because colour has a few more dimensions than pitch.

[@troldhaugen]

@@kaitlyn__L I need to learn more about art and color theory.

[@Merdragoon]

Okay. I think I'm getting the concept when you did the bigger peice. It's kinda like Color theory where the color look changes depending what is surrounding it. So for example: A Gray can look more blue or more orange if you have red by that gray or a blue by that gray. All colors do this depending what other color you have surrounding it. It's why some people can argue about what happens with a dress colors. (though that is more complicated because it also involves the color of the lighting and how the lighting works too, BUT that's a totally different concept that adds layers). I did hear the slight difference between the C flat and the B when the notes were different surrounding it, but that's a bit of how I understood it personally.

[@pr0ntab]

The important point is here is that the distinction is needed because in music notation (notes on a staff) this difference will communicate the function of a note in a melody or harmony from the composer to an experienced player and that can subtly (and often subconsciously) affect how they play that part of the music.

[@slayndash6077]

I don't know how this got in my feed, but the title intrigued me. As did the video length - I figured it was as simple as "Yes", as someone who played piano for several years. But it wasn't that simple. Music theory sure is deep; thanks for the nice video!

[@wanderingrandomer]

From a visual artist perspective, I imagine it like using the same colour in a different palette. Like if you used a desaturated red next to orange, it would appear cooler and almost blue, but using it against a deep blue would definitely make it seem warmer and red.

[@dopaminecloud]

which means it is definitely the same color, it's just that it's not important that it is

[@strangeWaters]

This issue comes up in pure math a lot. Two things look locally the same but start to become more obviously different as you move into other contexts (e.g. transposing between keys). Modern math has a bunch of tools to keep track of this information (like, "is this line just a line, or is it actually a triangle that happens to have been flattened from our current perspective?")

[@haydenbsiegel]

Excited to watch this one! When I published the monograph of the first Siegel Harmonic I sort of had a similar question because my thesis/conclusion was "That a new musical phenomenon known as Siegel Harmonics has been discovered creating a foundation for future research into capabilities, specifics, and ability to replicate across additional string instrumentation.", and I had to be very cautious about the wording. Since it was a groundbreaking study I wanted to make it broad enough that my conclusion would remain valid if new research was done which altered the details of the study. More importantly concerning Adam's video I had to recognize the difference between a: note, a frequency, and a musical phenomenon. A note is the notation of the sound and is subjective, thus Cb v B. A frequency is the actual sound according to an objective standard. A musical phenomenon is the concept that the frequency is a note produced by a specific technique. At least that was my mental break down on it. Here is a video with my most recent research: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ep_HfWuXg7yoaJI

[@bconroy2]

I have read that a lot of notes that are in one respect "equal" in well tempered conceptualization are actually played differently by violinists, e.g. Db vs C# is actually fingered differently by violinists, where the finger placement for the Db is slightly more sharp in positioning than C#. This applies to Ab and G#, Eb and D#, etc. Personally, I find that flatted notes always sound a bit more sad or "blue" than sharped notes. As such, I do not think this discussion is merely academic. Thanks for the video.

[@fedoraguy6774]

I find that there is no difference between the notes themselves, but rather in how they are used

[@metatron5199]

Exactly its context dependent just like how all language works for the most part…

[@tabascocat5102]

Adam, I've been searching for a video of yours I saw once, but didn't save. In it, you had a note (E?) and had it repeat to sound like A-440 etc. To prove that ANY pitch can sound like any pitch if played at the set oscillation per second. It fascinated me. But, I cannot find it.

[@FGCLovesYou]

@Tabasco cat - Was it The Coltrane Fractal? kzbin.info/www/bejne/gGqbm6qqopqIaqc He also did several videos on extreme rhythms, which may have touched on this too: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eoOvhZ17iN6oh80 kzbin.info/www/bejne/l5fLhHeBaql9p6M

[@FGCLovesYou]

Oh, or it may have been Musical Fractals: kzbin.info/www/bejne/o6KTq2Cprc-BotE

[@FGCLovesYou]

Or Harmonic Polyrhythms? kzbin.info/www/bejne/lZime3uEd6qXpcU

[@tabascocat5102]

@@FGCLovesYou iT WASNT BUT ITS PRETTY DARN INTERESTING ANYWAY., THANKS FOR THAT! oops caps

[@jeryth057]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/nmTOonWOZs9qnJo I’ve been looking all morning and I don’t think I’ve found it but there is an instance in this video. I remember my mind was blown by frequency relating to pitch 😄

[@DragonOfTheSkies]

I’ve seen church pipe organs with separate B and Cb keys. They have them because they’re usually playing along with a choir.

[@zzzut]

When I sang in the opera chorus, a few decades ago, we sang The Execution of Stepan Razin by Shostakovich. We had to sing an F an F# and a Gb consecutively. The maestro who was Russian and who had known Shostakovich personally, insisted we sang the Gb slightly higher than the F#. He said that the strings would do it and if we tried to sing both notes exactly the same, we would sound off key. So we did as best we could.

[@sethschrader4643]

The reason B sounds different is because you’re using it in the Major 3 sense which always wants to go up because it it’s position in the scale. C flat is used in the minor 4 sense which always wants to go back down to the 1 because 4 to 5 to 1 or 4 to 4minor to 1 is a very common progression. The note is the same, the chord it’s a part of and order it’s played gives it a different sound.

[@RC-1290]

Yeah, it's often a problem in my field (tech) that people look at a system and go: "clearly this is overcomplicated, we need to simplify it.", without understanding the reasons for why it's complicated or messy. On an opposite side of that, it can often be tempting to try making something that works for everything, making systems that are too complicated for how they're actually used. I think the challenge of deciding what something should be used for, and how to make it better for that specific use case is the most tricky one, because there's often many right answers. I get a little sad when I see example of big names in tech seemingly not realizing that their answer isn't the only one.

[@philkoorope]

This question keeps me up at night since I’ve started studying music. Thank you for this video, I can sleep now

[@taedwhoasked]

In german we would say „es ist dasselbe, aber nicht das gleiche“ Meaning: they’re the same, but not equal. I think that’s a perfect way to sum it up

[@InventorZahran]

Yes, but is B# the same note as C?

[@noonehere0987]

I only use B# major when writing music, consisting of (using Adam's "traditional" need to use each letter once) B#, C##, D##, E#, F##, G##, A##. Sight readers love me!

[@mrfoobarf5670]

@@noonehere0987 C## = Cx

[@mal2ksc]

I know you're trolling, but the short answer is: No, and although the specific scales used to explain the difference would change, the explanation would be fundamentally the same as B vs. C♭.

[@FlaxeMusic]

@@noonehere0987 I can't imagine sight readers even bother showing up to read it or stay in their seat once they see it.

[@topologyrob]

No - the B♯ in a G♯ major triad is lower than the C in an F major triad.

[@giladleef7608]

B = Cb. you can call it with whatever context you want but it's the same note/noise/wave. it doesn't actually matter how we people call it in our theories we made up ourselves.

[@Celastrous]

I went into music and tech at the same time in my late teens (now a firmware engineer and I love making synthesis programs in my spare time). There are vestibular incongruences in both fields, yet both have a lot of careful thought and logical beauty into them.

[@srennielsen6442]

I never knew this was a big thing, but surprise. I am confused about the lettering. When walking down a major third from Eb, why is it called Cb and not B? Is it because you go A B C D E F G, and the say going three down from Eb would then be saying Eb, Db and Cb. So you have to walk down according to letters?

[@aurallyaddison]

last week (i think) i was talking to a friend of mine in my music theory class, and he brought up how Db was his favorite key. i mentioned that Db was (kind of) my favorite note, probably because it’s the “open” note on the flute, the instrument i started really doing music on. he replied, “i’m more of a C# guy myself,” and i took a solid second or so to realize that it was a joke. i was about to say something like “C# has nothing to do with this conversation” when it pretty obviously did. i realized then that while i know and understand the concept of enharmonics, i see every note as its own distinct entity, which is likely largely due to my synesthesia-the concepts of Db and C# are very different colors, making them very different in my head. thus, i also see Cb and B, even if only unconsciously, as very different notes. this ends my typical super long infodump comment, good night

[@aurallyaddison]

@@ericlaska4748 technically, you’re not supposed to play Db/C# open on flute either, it’s one finger, but when i was first learning i thought that was cool (for some reason) and that kind of stuck in my head. (also as a result it’s fairly easy to play between most other notes.) it was mostly a useless bit of information i put in my comment for context, but thank you for the rant, i’m learning oboe myself and the alternate fingerings are absolutely a headache so it was rather interesting

[@kaitlyn__L]

I’m synesthetic too and even microtonal changes feel like completely different notes to me. Sometimes I can’t even tell you which is higher or lower pitched than the other, because they just feel so radically different to me.

[@Ishbosheth.]

3:08 That's actually crazy how different the same notes sound wow also nice music

[@denimator05]

The question of Cb being the same as B perfectly graphs to the meme with the wojaks on the IQ curve. On the far left, there's "Of course they aren't the same note, you write them differently." Then in the middle there's "They're the same note, they have the same pitch." Lastly on the far right, there's "They aren't the same not because you write them differently (so they have different functions/different references for tuning)."

[@garyl8356]

Funny that I don’t usually think I’m far right, but here I would place myself on your rubric.

[@notwithouttext]

midwit

[@jonasmartinsen3439]

You should switch right and left around, makes more sense that way

[@notwithouttext]

@@jonasmartinsen3439 no, the left side is low iq and right side is high iq

[@ytscksdabig1]

Actually even after OP edited it, and regardless of either way you put the left or right of the graph, one is the succinct way of saying it, "Of course they aren't the same note, you write them differently." The other way removes a couple words and adds one word, because, suddenly it's different now: ""They aren't the same not because you write them differently". And then OP put in a bunch of implied apparently telepathy that happens. And the 'implied telepathy' here in parenthesis, is the smug asshat way of having to always be right, because gosh dern gee willickers, you paid for that rubber stamped music degree, didn't you?

[@robinlilja95]

Every time this is brought up I am dissapointed by the lack of notation-related and music-system related points. If you play Gb and Cb, that is a fourth (in the key of Gb). In western style of notation, it will be much easier to read if it looks like a fourth in the notation. If we would notate Gb and Cb as Gb and B, it would look like a third in the notation (an augmented third). This would confuse the reader, because something that sounds like a fourth looks like a third. Now, there ARE moments when augmented/diminished intervals makes sense (such as the augmented second between an Ab and B in a harmonic minor scale in C), but that makes sense in its context and thus doesn’t cause confusion. It also SOUNDS like an augmented second - it has a very characteristic sound. With that said: otherwise fantastic video! Love your content! Funny and in depth as always!

[@MrJazzPiano]

This was quite interesting to me! Although not too useful in my professional piano work, I also do band arranging, and as an arranger, it's good to keep this stuff in mind when writing for any instrument which doesn't use pre-tuned pitches. As a side note, I remember hearing of someone (obviously with way too much time on his hands, since this was way before the advent of arranging software) writing out an entire orchestra score of the same piece in both the original sharp key and the corresponding flat key. They then recorded an orchestra playing both versions and compared them. Their conclusion was that not only did the pitch of violins and other variable pitch instruments vary slightly between the two versions, but they also surprisingly found that the version written in the sharp key had more of a happy lilt to it, while the same exact song, written in a flat key, sounded more mellow and melancholy. This gets me to wondering whether the orchestra players in a group which included a piano would sub-consciously de-tune the notes to better match the pitch of the piano or if the poor pianist would just have to sound slightly out of tune in order to play along with the adjustments made by the variable pitch instruments. Perhaps a great arranger with knowledge of this would avoid having the piano play any notes that would feel de-tuned from the rest of the orchestra. Comments???

[@Miglow]

It's because of how violinists and strings in general play sharps and flats. We take the finger that usually plays the natural note and move up up when sharp, down when flat. Have a violinist play a G# scale vs an Ab scale and there's a good chance that person will use a different fingering. On the A string, the D is played with a third finger (ring finger, strings only have 4 fingers vs a pianist's 5). The E would be played with a 4th finger (pinky). So a D sharp will raise the third finger next to the pinky, and an E flat would lower the pinky next to the ring finger. This has a subtle natural effect of causing flats to be pitched slightly lower than sharps This works really well because it often sounds great when doing things like resolving a maj 7th to an 8ve. So that subtle difference between sharp and flat can add a bit of an edge to some intervals and resolutions. When you say the sharp key sounds "happier" it's because the orchestra is indeed using a higher, thus brighter, pitches overall. The flat kay will conversely have slightly lower pitches. It makes sense that the flat keys would tend to be slightly more muted and also potentially less resonant with the open strings of a violin.

[@Miglow]

In regards to an orchestra playing with a piano, it usually doesn't matter. The musicians will play as they typically do and it will sound good. In the rare cases where strings might clash with the intonation of a piano, if the musicians are halfway decent they will automatically match intonation with the piano. String players are already constantly matching pitch with each other and other sections of an orchestra (or symphony, or what have you). And if they aren't doing this, then it's the director's job to fix the problem.

[@matthewwilliams2093]

@@Miglow This also leads in to why most players of stringed instruments are more comfortable playing in keys featuring multiple sharps vs. most wind players preferring keys in multiple flats (particularly beginners). It's because when you add a finger on a stringed instrument, you shorten the string and the pitch goes up, whereas when you add a finger on a wind instrument, you make the tube longer and the pitch goes down.

[@pashaveres4629]

Similar idea in a different field: in writing, it's been said that a good first edit might be to strike out every-other-word. My project was to write something without much editing and produce two versions, each the every-other-word of the other, then give them to different people to edit to completion. Then compare the results.

[@santiagoacosta3372]

Music is based on context, so I totally understand why most academic support the idea of Cb and B being different notes. But they're still the same note tho

[@stueyapstuey4235]

yup, kinda... which is also.. kind of not exactly... hmm complicated

[@troldhaugen]

Only on equal-tempered keyboards. They are not the same when people sing them by ear or play them by ear on, say, fretless stringed instruments.

[@declup]

@@troldhaugen -- Seems to me the issue isn't the the system of temperament or the limitations of any particular instrument. Instead, to my mind, the issue is Western musical notation, which, in many modern musical contexts, is suboptimal. The problem is that Western notation was designed for a different time and adapted to communicate a rather restricted set of assumptions. The notation's still functionally adequate nowadays (of course, obviously), but alternatives should be more readily available and acceptable.

[@TheRealMarauder]

Well, what he's pointed out in this video is, that's only true for 12-note instruments with a fixed temper. Many instruments (winds(but only kind of), most brass(but only kind of), keyboards, guitar (again, only kind of)) are going to behave like this, and many instruments (voice, trombone, the entire string section) will see a difference and will tend to play those notes differently, so any understanding that only sees them as the same note is going to miss that complexity. Violinists actually have to often make a conscious choice to follow equal temperament, and it sounds a little out of tune to them when they have to play with equal-tempered instruments like a piano soloist. The piano only has one key that plays both Cb and B, so the violinists tune both notes to match the piano. And in the video, you saw him play Cb differently from how he would play B. It's an advanced, nuanced, and highly trained understanding, yes, but when you know all that, or when you play an instrument with no fixed, forced notes, you _genuinely_ aren't playing the same note. The pitch is _actually_ different. Only the western canon and the evolution of equal temperament makes it make sense to call them the same note for some purposes, and it's only a starting point. He also showed you just how out of tune it sounds to play a major chord with the wrong one, relative to the right one. The equal temper version probably sounds fine to you, but the wrong note in just intonation sounds BAD. The two pitches he computes in the just-intonation algebra section are almost a quarter tone apart, judged against equal temperament. The equal temper version falls somewhere in-between. I mean, I'm literally just saying stuff he said in the video, basically; if you watched it, you saw all of this stuff too. I don''t know why I typed this much considering like 80% of people just reply "sure but you're wrong" but it's not even mechanically the same pitch for a single instrument in the orchestra unless you're playing with a piano.

[@troldhaugen]

@@TheRealMarauder Exactly right. It seems like a lot of commenters are missing this point.

[@georgH]

Great video, as always ;) I would have pointed out that it's not just B/Cb, every pair of enharmonics have the same characteristic.

[@mari-with-a-gun]

Hey, I did the math with the exact ratio instead of your 5/4 approximation (and using G5 = 500Hz as a constant to calculate the other frequencies, rather than using the approximate frequencies you listed) and I found that Cb is exactly equal to B so the mathematical explanation is flawed due to your approximations. btw, the correct ratio for a major 3rd is 2^(1/3) or the cube root of 2, which ≈ 1.25992104989 Close to your 5/4 (1.25) approximation, but different enough to make a practical difference I do, however, agree that there’s a difference in the notation due to the fact that all pitches only have meaning relative to each other

[@M_M_ODonnell]

I was fooling around with a melody last night, and I couldn't figure out why a certain note sounded right until I noticed that with the other enharmonic spelling it made sense conceptually. It might not make any difference to someone playing the written music, but distinguishing between the two made it easier to figure out what I was trying to do. And isn't naming notes all about making it easier to figure out musical thoughts?

[@MOSMASTERING]

Why couldn't you figure out why the note sounded right. If it sounds right, it's almost certainly in the key diatonically for a start. Were you just freewheeling a melody with no key choice or root note? Then what? You found a key and applied the correct enharmonic notation and figured out that it fit (with no accidentals I presume)

[@M_M_ODonnell]

@@MOSMASTERING I don't really have time or inclination to dig through the layers of false assumptions in your comment.

[@MOSMASTERING]

@@M_M_ODonnell I'm not being rude. It was a genuine question as to what you were doing so you ended up in a position where you couldn't work out why it sounded right?

[@HugoStuff]

I want a full version of the song you made for the natural occurrence of B and Cb

[@Kj_Gamer2614]

Just listen to radio head…

[@toodleselnoodos6738]

I like to describe it as reductionist vs. wholistic view. Reduction-wise, yes it’s the same sound. Wholistically, it serves a different “sound” in relation to its setting or fitting. It depends on relation to everything else. Though for the Voice thing, I think that’s a great example of why it is different…but doesn’t exist on piano.

[@samsowden]

but if someone rewrote a iece of music, and switched the positions of every cb and b, and played it back, would you hear it?

[@toodleselnoodos6738]

@@samsowden Depends on how they rewrote the whole piece of music.

[@PrincessNinja007]

The frustrating thing about music education in school is that we were taught the functional view but then expected to think holistically. Like cut time is my Achilles heel because I was taught "2 beats in a measure and the half note is one beat" so I can absolutely play the rhythm in time with the rest of the group, but I was well into college the first time someone even tried to explain how it was different than common time

[@fonesrphunny7242]

"When you're more experienced, it will make sense" ... exactly! I was told it depends on context, but never understood it. Now that I know more than 12TET, it makes sense to me. I'm still a simple man, playing guitar and bass in 12TET, but it's still valuable to know. A tiny bend can make all the difference with harmonies

[@Law0fRevenge]

1:45 Here's a fun fact: In Germany the note B is actually called H. So the order of a C major scale is CDEFGAHC. Even more confusing: H flat is called B. No idea why and it always confuses me even to this day.

[@simongunkel7457]

I looked up the history. In the 11th century Guido von Arezzo added an 8th note to the existing major scale, which was the flat 7th. He shifted from CDEFGAB to CDEFGA♭♮, with ♭ denoting ♭B and ♮ denoting B. German (along with Scandinavian and western Slavic) readers read the natural as h, and the flat as b, resulting in a scale of CDEFGABH. When additional "black keys" (not that there were keyboard instruments in the modern sense) were introduced, the H for B natural stuck and B for B flat did as well.

[@mr.spray85]

As a vocalist in an ensemble, knowing the difference between these notes was critical.

[@Catefn]

i was going to post this, too!

[@pulsemaps]

I remember hearing that after studying the intonation of vocalists performing in an ensemble, it was revealed that there is no consistent tuning system employed, but rather they are constantly adjusting based on the moment-to-moment harmonic context

[@samcarlen6097]

Similar to the topic of the video, I always wondered: Why would one choose to write in F# vs. Gb? Would it be preference or is there any validity behind one over the other for certain applications? Since they are technically the same pitches from beginning to end.

[@stereotypicalblobby]

for the key of the song, preference for a chord, depends on the other chords

[@room34]

No one should ever choose to write in either of those key signatures, in my opinion! Too damn many accidentals!

[@JohnnyArtPavlou]

@@room34 Honest question… Forgive me for asking, I don’t mean to be an asshole… I had the same question myself the other day. Is it really an accidental? Just because it has a sharp or flat connected to it? In other words, those are the notes in that key, and they have the same intervals as every other key. I thought an accidental was basically a note that doesn’t belong in a given key and that’s why it’s called an accidental, because it appears there but it’s not diatonic. I certainly get where you’re coming from… It’s a little harder to wrap your mind or your fingers around all of the sharps and flats. When you can just be playing with more fingers on the white keys or more fingers on the marked frets on the guitar. But at the end of the day, it’s all just notes.

[@Skux720]

It would become important if the piece of music changed keys. A song in E major modulating up a whole note for a climactic final chorus is more intuitive to express as F# major than Gb major, since F comes after E. Also the muscians can process the key change as just 'adding the sharps' rather than recalibrating to whole different set of flats.

[@simongunkel7457]

@@JohnnyArtPavlou Yup. An accidental is the symbol that shows that a note is different from the note with the same position on the staff lines that's within the key or the one preceeding it. So the natural symbol ♮ is as much included as sharp and flat.

[@Blue-cf5jd]

"All the letters in order" - in Hungary, we call B "H" for absolutely no reason so it officially goes like A-H-C-D-E-F-G

[@-_Nuke_-]

XD

[@douglasboyle6544]

I'm not a musician but I've been watching your channel for many years now because I love music and learning. But between people like you and Rick Beato (and many others) with your great content, I think I've finally been inspired to make 2023 the year I learn to play guitar. Keep making great videos and inspiring new generations (and even old ones like me) of musicians.

[@trashyraccoon2615]

I felt the same and tried guitar. It just wasn’t happening. So I got myself a midi keyboard and GarageBand and an having the time of my life. Already made a dozen pretty cool songs. If guitar doesn’t work, I recommend trying this, super duper fun

[@NielMalan]

13:49 There is always a trade-off between efficiency and flexibility.

[@mxyplyzyk]

Using the frequency multiple approach, wouldn't you find discrepancies between note names and frequencies all over the keyboard? The keyboard approximates most notes, not just Cb/B. How it is used in a chord or in harmony is a stronger argument for distinguishing the two names. Did I miss something?

[@KDG702]

Nice job explaining functional harmony in a simple way. Great video overall

[@pizzajoke3561]

This makes sense just from the perspective of wind instruments. I remember my band’s director during sectionals had us learn to adjust our notes to the root of the chord. Thirds of chords are 16 cents flat, and fifths are slightly sharp, I think maybe 2 cents or so. So playing a note in tune depends on the current chord in the song. Paired with the notation of “every chord contains every letter once,” you’ll have B sound different from Cb… but also different between tonic B and B in the key of G, meaning that B isn’t even always the same note. I guess that’s one argument against the distinction then, that even when playing by the rules of just intonation, a note by the same name can and should be played differently in different places, so why does it matter if we include Cb in there as well? The distinction is already part of every note, regardless of whether the name changes from the key or not.

[@nickmonks9563]

I had an audio engineering instructor once who plays guitar make this argument also; tune to the song, not to the instrument. If it's a guitar song in G, then the guitar should be tuned based on the "G" note. It definitely affects the emotional dynamic of the piece, but does become more complicated when playing with instruments whose tuning details vary from that of the guitar (and potentially even from guitar to guitar.) That said, I like the idea.

[@mal2ksc]

@@nickmonks9563 Guitars with fixed frets are a nightmare in this regard. The best you can hope for is to be slightly but tolerably wrong in every key. If you try to "pure" one key, others sound bad. Personally I consider the guitar tuned when I can play the Hey Joe progression (C G D A E, all major) and all five chords sound acceptable. This requires finer tuning than even an electronic tuner provides, so it's something I'd have to do between sets with headphones on, and not during one, so I'm glad my guitar is stable enough to last a whole set even though it has a Strat-style bridge. It will stay in tune for _weeks_ hanging on the wall. The "right answer" is to abandon fixed frets and go back to tying them on like a lute. Of course this comes with its own set of problems, which end up solved with tastini (little tiny extra frets), and it makes no sense for forms of modern atonal music that rely on B and C♭ to be the same pitch.

[@EvanAdnams]

Singing acapella in choirs, same!

[@topologyrob]

Actually natural major thirds are 14 cents lower than equal tempered major thirds - I think maybe you were thinking of major 6ths, which are 16 cents lower when natural than when equal tempered.

[@OATMEALCMC]

Before I watch, it depends on the context of the scale. Same frequency of sound, yes, it's the same, but in the context of scales, it is not. Kind of like the differences between their and there. The two words sound alike, yet depending on context, there are different spellings and different meanings. Post watch edit: Mr. Sweeny's assertions are jarring at first, but then again, shares the same sort of assertions, or assumptions I've heard from most guitar players when the subject of music theory is mentioned. P.S. Excellent work on this video.

[@crushingvictory]

At the beginning of the video, I personally thought to myself "Is Cb the same as B? No, but it's probably a matter of cents" (which while I was aware of existing, didn't actually know what they were) so after a quick read and some research after I watched the vid, I'm glad to know a little more!

[@ValkyRiver]

In regular diatonic temperaments, Cb and B are the same if the perfect fifth is exactly 700 cents in size. If it is less than 700¢, B is lower; if it is greater than 700¢, B is higher.

[@Anonymous-df8it]

@@ValkyRiver What do you mean 'if'? It is, by definition, 1200*log(2,3/2) cents in size!

[@ValkyRiver]

@@Anonymous-df8it In the context of regular diatonic temperaments, the perfect fifth is the “generator” interval (between 685 and 720 cents) of which the diatonic scale (LLsLLLs) is generated by stacking (FCGDAEB becomes CDEFGAB) If the stacking continues, you can hit both Cb and B (CbGbDbAbEbBbFCGDAEB), and whether Cb or B is higher depends on the size of the generator. 19-TET has a perfect fifth around 695 cents, which is less than 700 cents, so in 19-TET, B is lower than Cb. What you are referring to is the JUST perfect fifth (3:2), which when used as a generator yields Pythagorean tuning. Since the just perfect fifth is bigger than 700 cents, B is higher than Cb in Pythagorean tuning.

[@Anonymous-df8it]

@@ValkyRiver Then why is it called a 'perfect fifth' if it's imperfect? Also, why is the fifth used as a generator and not the major third, for example? Where do the values of 685 and 720 cents come from? And what happens when the 'perfect' fifth is *_exactly_* 700 cents? Sorry for asking too many questions! :)

[@ValkyRiver]

@@Anonymous-df8it The perfect fifth can be used to generate the diatonic scale. If you start from F and stack six fifths, you get F C G D A E B, which can be rearranged into C D E F G A B. The values of 685 and 720 are the fifths of the two opposite ends of the diatonic scale spectrum. The diatonic scale in “regular” diatonic spectrum are defined by 5 large steps and 2 small steps (e.g. L L s L L L s) On one extreme, the small step becomes as big as the large step, yielding 7-TET (or a multiple of 7) where the fifth has a size of 685 cents: On the other extreme, the small step becomes so small that it goes to the unison, giving us 5-TET (or a multiple of 5) with a fifth the size of 720 cents. In the context of regular diatonic spectrums, any fifths within the range (e.g. 711 cents) are “perfect”, and any fifths outside this range (e.g. 672 cents) are “imperfect” or “wolf” fifths. This also means that some large equal temperaments (e.g. 47-TET) can have multiple perfect fifths, each corresponding to a different diatonic scale. When the perfect fifth is exactly 700 cents, you get 12-TET (or a multiple of 12), and B and Cb are the same.

[@vullnetdyla]

I’m totally one of those tech people you described 😂. Feels good to be put in my place by someone who can eloquently make the case for western music notation as an efficient language.