Is D&D 5E Challenge Rating worthless?

[@TheNerdySimulation]

I'm really glad you did this video, because I know in the past I have been one who gets slightly frustrated at CR not being "accurate" but usually that comes from a lack of calculating in all portions and taking a step back to realize that perhaps one or two of the elements I am going to utilize in a certain way are not intended to be used in said way. Designers can't always account for the out-of-the-box ideas other people might think of when they release an encounter toolbox, but they certainly try their best to measure it in some kind of understandable manner.

[@mikegould6590]

Jim, as always, love the content. Thanks for bringing up CR. It's a mess. (Warning, long response. Please bear with me) I USED to follow CR until I finally realized that there are three contributing factors to every game of D&D that no formula can account for. 1. Players. 2. Dice. 3. "Remove from play" abilities Players can and will act in unpredictable ways. That's an ongoing truth that will never end, and it's the greatest contributing factor to DM fun and stress. However, it doesn't just end with behaviour. Character builds are equally important. CR takes in party LEVEL, but not party BUILD. A group of three experienced players who have competent or strong builds who communicate well and take things seriously will be harder to challenge than five players of varying experience who can't cooperate on a pizza order and build characters around chicken totem barbarians and pacifist bards who just use Prestidigitation to clean themselves in combat. CR cannot account for player choice, mood, or greed. It cannot account for players who continually just look out for themselves and seemingly act against the will or agreements made by the rest of the party. It cannot account for players who are disengaged for any number of reasons. It cannot account for players who refuse to communicate with each other or the DM and then act in surprising ways. In essence, there is no formula for the randomness of player behaviour or build. In my latest campaign, six level 2 PCs were annihilated because they separated in a Kobold warren and walked...one at a time...into the SAME room where kobolds were on elevated parapets with shortbows...KNOWING the kobolds were there. KOBOLDS, Jim. Ugh. And speaking of randomness, since the entire system is based on a d20, there is a LOT of room for error in what may happen. I've watched players around my table fail to roll greater than a modified 10 versus skeletons who were armed with silly weapons like screw drivers and hand drills. They were TPKed by the silliest of foes because their dice luck was atrocious. To make matters worse, I lost two (level 3) player characters after they charged an alleged DR:1/2 Cocktrice and couldn't roll over a 7 for saves versus the Petrification.... which, although it's only a temporary condition, they failed these saves on a sinking ship too... On the other end of that scale, I watched a level 4 War Cleric OWN a CR:5 Wraith by himself. He rolled nothing but Crits for an entire fight. All rolls were open and the dice were fair. Our table can regale you with the story of a group of 8 Zombies who completely destroyed a group of 6 level 2 player characters. The DM rolled 6, yes 6, Critical Hits from ONE Zombie alone. (Hereafter referred to as Kid Zombie - "He's fast. He's pretty. Heeeeeeee's Kiiiiiiiiid Zombiiiieeeeeeeeee" ...crowd cheers) Trying to account for wild swings in dice luck is impossible. To touch on a point raised earlier, some abilities are what I call "remove from play". Those abilities include, but are not limited to Petrification, Paralysis, Polymorph, Stun, or any ability than can "reduce to 0 hit points" on a failed save. These are what used to be called "save or suck" or "save vs death" abilities. Creatures TEND to have a higher CR if they possess these abilities, but that isn't always the case. Furthermore, those who possess these abilities at lower CRs TEND to have "easy" saving throws. However, this is where that whole "dice luck" thing comes into play. When you tie the Dice Luck issue to Save Or Suck, wild stuff can happen. Furthermore, consider that some abilities create Advantage. When a Monster can generate Advantage, and then allow others to do so, lower CRs then take on the punching power of higher CRs. Look at Sahaughin. Look at their ability to generate Advantage versus wounded targets. Now look at their ability to control and talk to Sharks. Note similar abilities. Now you have an underwater encounter with an exponential change in difficulty the second anyone gets wounded, which then scales way up each time a player character is wounded. Now you have opponents in a 3D environment who are not affected by the environment, who all roll 2d20 on every attack....when the party is exactly the opposite. That's just death. What happens when the two such conditions stack? Look at Ghouls. Ghouls punch WAY above their CR, and here's why: Paralysis allows opponents targeting the paralyzed character to attack with Advantage, and each hit is a Critical Hit. It doesn't matter that the Ghoul's save DC on the Paralysis isn't that high. By the law of averages, you're going to Paralyze at least once, and if you have multiple Ghouls, each possibly paralyzing twice per turn...that's a lot of chances. Now let's look at MONSTER behaviour. Neither the Sahaughin, Sharks nor Ghouls have any compunctions about EATING a helpless or unconscious PC. This is not only plausible, it's logical. Call me a "killer DM" or whatever, but any Ghoul that DOESN'T eat the living isn't a Ghoul. It's "Mr. Flanders from the abandoned amusement park." CR cannot account for monster behaviour either, which can be it's own "Save or Suck". Oozes wouldn't stop. Sharks. Insects. Undead. Some elementals. Demons. Constructs.... Matt Colville's story about "The elemental steps on your head to make sure you're dead" isn't an unreasonable action if that elemental was commanded to "destroy all intruders". CR accounts for none of this. So, how then can a DM approach this? Look at your players and their characters. Talk to them during Session Zero to get an idea of how they might approach things. Get an idea of their style of play. Avoid "Save or Suck" monsters early on, regardless of their "CR" until you can judge how the players will approach the problem. Be clear about YOUR intentions and play style. The DM has his own "CR" because of their individual style. Like you, I roll in the open. I don't fudge or pull punches. The players take my monsters seriously. They've grown and evolved, and those that did not are playing new characters. Now, they are a bitchin machine. I ignored CRs on the last "boss" fight they were in. They are level 6, except the Draconic Sorcerer who was level 7 (actually saved 10 tokens over eight months to buy level 7...;)....). They faced a "Coven" Green Hag" whose "hag vehicle" was an undead Treant with Wights hanging from nooses. The treant would spin, flinging these bodies out at the players. But the Sorcerer pull a Wall of Fire around the Treant right off the bat, setting it ablaze. The Druid cast "Plant Growth" around the area, slowing it inside this wall. They really poured it on. When the Treant died, wooden tiki masks flew out from her little treehouse in the Treant and converted the Wights to wooden Flaming Skulls. When the Hag died after being pinpointed by the Ranger and his musket, the Skulls each blew up in a Fireball. It sounds like a lot, and it was. But it happened in stages. I adjusted the fight on the fly to up the difficulty when they were super organized, and reduced the CR when they made heroic decisions that altered the playing field. Treants, being Vulnerable to Fire, meant that I was taking a risk that my Draconic Sorcerer would both beat the Treant in initiative and would focus on him. Both bets paid off. Why? Because I took the time to learn my players. Two nearly died. But they won. And when they did, they cheered. They felt heroic. And that's the best feeling a DM can hope for.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Mike Gould can’t out master dumb play. But the more you play the better you understand

[@chramesly]

Thanks for going into that! As a new DM, understanding what should be thrown at the party (be it monsters, reward, whatever) is hard. I look forward to seeing your personal systems.

[@EricVulgaris]

One of the reasons CR is hard to judge is because there's a significant difference in CR power levels that isn't mentioned anywhere. There's power spikes that coincides with fighters getting their iterative attacks. The easiest to see are cr 4 vs cr 5 encounters.

[@daemonkalcifer]

Thank you for this video! I am new to DMing and the first game I ran, I technically brutally murdered my party since I was really confused with the challenge rating in the Monster Manuel. Also, my boyfriend also DMs and he loves your videos.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Kalcifer welcome to the party DM

[@theDMLair]

In my experience, the CR system from the DMG works fairly well until around level 8 or so. That's assuming you build encounters with roughly as many enemies as there are PCs. (A solo bad guy will drop like a rock due to action economy.) However, I have two groups now in the higher levels (one at level 11, the other at level 17) and the challenge rating system is only good for rough approximations. Most encounters come in way too weak to challenge the heroes. I need to build something at 4x deadly to give them a run for their money usually. But yeah, for a new DM running the game in the lower levels, it works just fine.

[@Bluecho4]

Concerning action economy: it might be a good idea to consider adding Legendary Actions to boss encounters, even for monsters that don't normally have them in the Monster Manual. Even just letting a creature get an extra attack or two per round, that can occur at any point in the round, can do wonders for their effectiveness. Obviously, while CR is not a hard and fast thing as you say, it may be important to adjust the effective CR of said monster. Since adding more actions can change how much damage they can put out per round (duh), and CR takes that into account. On the plus side, this means that you can potentially make a monster that the party has "outgrown" be a challenge again, in addition to making a monster who isn't quite enough of a challenge for its CR into a threat.

[@theDMLair]

Bluecho4 Totally agree! I add legendary actions AND legendary resistances to all my boss monsters (even when they have mooks to help them). While not the only way to make a satisfying boss encounter, it sure helps. Otherwise the boss just can't keep up with action economy, and it's a sitting duck for 2 spell casters slinging their most horrible spells at it.

[@mrmaat]

I have a level 17 party as well, with 2-3 magic items each, and the CR guidelines are a joke. The only thing to challenge them so far was another 17th level adventuring party.

[@theDMLair]

Yep, CR system is mostly a joke at high levels. And it seems like you and I are both conservative with giving out magic items. Imagine what happens in games where the DM gives magic items out like they are candy. 😂

[@jayharris1086]

Thank you for posting this video. Grateful for the advice!

[@fitzmac8504]

Another great video Jim Murphy , enjoy the 4th of July !

[@ryanphgaara]

just found your channel recently and watched all of your videos in a row. Im very glad you have made this channel, love hearing your stories and sharing your opinion.keep it up :)

[@jimmurphy1591]

RyPhilip will do

[@codyc7477]

This is very helpful. Great vid

[@VundalI]

100% AGREE. im finally a player in a game, and my dm threw a CR 8 encounter at a 4 lvl 2s. Normally, we'd be screwed, but we had a good amount of NPCs to draw fire and take potshots. really fun fight.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Vundal that the way it should be. Great DM

[@SkullDixon]

Basically, It only works one way. If you have X number of players and the Right assortment of Classes, then it works. But its been my experience that most game groups don't fall into the Standard setup they envision. I was really looking forward to using CR, as a GM, to help design scenarios. That is until I started to learn the game system and discovered that it didn't help and at times didn't work because my group didn't fit into the box that makes CR work. Though, you are not wrong. if I was fine with all the lower level encounters being Milk Toast, then it wouldn't have been a problem, but I like the challenge the party and that challenge to fit the scenario I am presenting. Honestly, I want to get rid of the old D&D concept about NPCs in general and just give the monsters levels. The easiest game system I have ever run, when it came to NPCs and Monsters, was Palladium Fantasy for this reason.

[@SirLucien]

I know another thing that makes a huge difference is the Surprise round, this can make a hard encounter deadly quick, and the Dice can break any perfectly laid plan.

[@nursejoy69420]

i love when grandpa jim makes videos

[@jimmurphy1591]

Mr Spam yee ha!

[@xuetheviewer3897]

I don't know if someone else has already said this, but you should like your Patreon in the description. Love the video by the way.

[@gengar1187]

Ethan Bridges keep bugging him, I have sent many suggestions along these lines lol

[@jimmurphy1591]

Ethan Bridges yes I have been advised, but I can’t do it on the phone so have to do it after video, it kind of seems pushy since I put it video end and last want to stay out of the KZbin/ verses the world battle coming

[@neal1366]

Speaking of Minotaurs, I’d love to hear how you would handle a classic D&D Minotaur encounter for your players, like from the old-school module The Keep on the Borderlands. Love your videos! Thanks!

[@jimmurphy1591]

neal buckles never played, but I’ll look it up

[@seanhillman1016]

I mostly "feel" my way through encounters these days and have for a long time. What the CR in the MM does for me however, is tell me how strong the WoTC staff (staves?) think the creature is. From there I factor in terrain and get an idea. You can always make the encounter harder (reinforcements arrive! Those baby medium sized spiders have a large sized mommy nearby). It is much more difficult to make an encounter suddenly easier. Unless the bugbear has a heart attack from eating too much fatty dwarf meat.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Sean Hillman get them on a hobbit diet

[@theDMLair]

Sean Hillman If an encounter turns out to be harder than I want it to be, there are ways to make it easier. Not playing as tactically or having the enemies make a tactical error. If a few enemies have fallen, a couple might lose morale and break lines. If a creature has recharging abilities, such as breath weapons, just don't use them, even if they recharge. Have spell casters use spells that aren't as effective. So, there are ways to do it, but if done too frequently, yeah, the players will catch on.

[@Bluecho4]

There are a few ways, and not just a sudden heart attack. Reinforcements could arrive, but be on the side of the PCs rather than the enemies. You could arrange the monster to have an accident mid-combat, causing some injury. You could have one of the PCs stumble on a magic item that can turn the tide. If there are multiple combatants, some of them may be called away to handle a situation elsewhere. The biggest threat in the enemy party could even decide, suddenly, that the PCs are so weak as to be _beneath him_ , and he tells the others to handle the fight themselves while he goes off. All of this not even getting into how the PCs could exploit some aspect of the environment to their advantage. Like breaking open a dam that floods the battlefield, washing foes away. Or maneuvering enemies into hazards, like pits, traps, and monster nests. Or making a slight tactical retreat into narrow passages, where the advantage of numbers amounts to nothing. Or collapsing a wooden floor, so the enemy falls down to the lower level, and takes multiple rounds (or even minutes) to climb or navigate back to the battlefield. All things that can serve to eliminate threats outright, or disable them in such a way that they are out of the fight for some time, so the encounter becomes easier to manage in the interim. Indeed, it's probably good encounter design to leave in some kind of "out", in case the encounter is discovered to be too difficult to handle. Even if that "out" is simply giving the party an opportunity to escape.

[@rontalkstabletop]

Gamer for 30+ years who loves using the CR guidelines (well the ones out of XGtE anyway). I do use it as a gauge of difficulty and not a strict formula; it's a guideline after all.

[@andrewszigeti2174]

Like anything else in D&D, it's a tool for the DM. IIRC, in 3E you were supposed to have a mix of CR encounters. Most will be equivalent to the party level, with some above and below to provide more or less challenge and keep the PCs hopping.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Low CR encounters are a time waist & no one is hopping

[@andrewszigeti2174]

@@jimmurphy1591 : They let the PCs feel like badasses once in a while. When every combat, however trivial in personal stakes, is a massive slog against the odds, the players start feeling like they're the wimps of the universe.

[@jimmurphy1591]

@@andrewszigeti2174 interesting, I just feel that a boring battle does not move the story or make good use of my time. An outclassed creature would run not stand and get killed

[@andrewszigeti2174]

@@jimmurphy1591 Average goblin or orc probably can't tell the difference between a level one fighter and a level twenty fighter. He doesn't know to run until it's way too late. I was in a campaign some years back where EVERY fight was a deadly threat. EVERY battle was an uphill struggle just to survive. Winning? Well, thank the gods we had Joe and his tactical genius to carry us through without too many character deaths. Getting to third level? Dream on, you'd die before you got that far. It really made us feel like... well, we were playing a bunch of (a highly impolite word for a weakling, also an an alternate word for 'cat') and it really wasn't fun at all. Yeah, Conan has his life-or-death struggles. And sometimes he goes through minions like a chainsaw through butter. Sometimes it's nice to ROFLstomp a minion or two to help remind you you're the Big Damn Hero of the story.

[@jimmurphy1591]

@@andrewszigeti2174 I would think they know better. One insta kill and the rest beat feet

[@gc3-]

I find that it’s about 1 level too low for my players. So it’s very easy to make encounters using the rules by just upping the CR by 1 or 2.

[@TheKodiak72]

I would say it certainly is, my current campaign where im a PC. There are only 3 of us, lvl 7.. The DM has thrown CR16 creatures at us and we defeated it.. but almost TPK'd on a CR7.. Really depends on the monster, Mordenkiems new monsters has a CR1 statue that turns you to stone.. Nearly lost our wizard from 3 of them.. 3 CR1s mobs.

[@robot2024]

Yes, if you used a banshee and her wail procs on half the party that's several people at 0 HP now, it's a low save so if you have her with a few low CR enemies such as skeletons, and zombies at lower levels then you could potentially kill the party fairly easily, it all depends on how your players have their stats/class built, and knowing what can counter/kill them when it comes to monsters you throw at them.

[@HowtoRPG]

Your right on the money. I still don't like the CR system. Preferring the slow boil technique.

[@dannym2359]

I put my party of 7 players against a homebrewed demonic Wendigo, it's summoning caster, and about 8 other small demons at level 1. the party literally took the cr 7+ demonic wendigo down in like 3 turns and nobody really even got hurt. Then I put them against a group of 5 or 6 zombies and they came out of it with 4 of the 7 barely hanging onto life. Moral of the story, many times the CR system won't give you an accurate idea of how a group of players will do against it, but it is almost always a good place to start, especially for the beginner dm

[@jimmurphy1591]

Danny M sometimes the hero’s win....damn

[@dannym2359]

Jim Murphy that they do

[@Alacarderism]

Hey Jim, I was wondering if you could give us an update on the Albion campaign and also maybe you could do a video on running games in a shared world with a group of friends

[@jimmurphy1591]

Belmont I’ll get on that

[@CardinalSpirit]

I think a problem I see a lot of people have is that they want to make deadly encounters but not Deadly encounters. I only expect my players to have a *real* threat of truly dying when I'm hitting the Deadly threshold because to me that's what it says on the tin and so far it's worked for me (though I only have a couple months of DM experience by this point.) When I see people say that it feels like there's no chance of dying and that makes it too easy while using lower ratings it just kind of confuses me a bit, tho I can kind of see where they're coming from. The only time I use lower ratings and expect a real threat of death is when I'm relying on environmental/contextual effects (kind of like the situation you described) and/or unexpected, effective tactics more so than usual.

[@jimmurphy1591]

ForEvergreen CS that seems to be the big problem I have with the game. I hope that by doing these chats the game might improve. It is for sure the quality has.

[@quonomonna8126]

I just don't use the multiplier unless there are more monsters than PCs, that is, if they're fully rested for that encounter and there aren't any complicating circumstances

[@jimmurphy1591]

Smart

[@quonomonna8126]

@@jimmurphy1591 I really appreciate your videos and especially that you read and respond to my comments. I have tons of respect for you and find myself agreeing with everything here.

[@Reruro]

Appreciate this video Jim, do you think you’d still be up for showing off a few of those encounters that you think may be off-balance? Not to knock on the current system, but as a learning tool.

[@jimmurphy1591]

RerTV oh, you bet....that’s the way I roll

[@SaetiStrakur]

Wells Fargo Bank

[@jimmurphy1591]

SaetiStrakur local

[@sath2749]

I guess I am a fool. cause I never trusted challenge ratings and make up encounters based on how I think the group can handle it. I also let my players know that they should never go into a game thinking if they see a monster that means they can beat it. I will put things in places where if they go after the enemy they will most likely have to run or die. I just won't put that stuff in the way. It will be a side thing cause I had problems in the past where some get to thinking their characters can do anything without any fear and it leads to them ending up in a jail or a grave.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Sath no I think you understand the game. But once there is a rule, you have to learn to work around or ignore. Use when your new

[@sath2749]

I agree and get what you are saying. That is why I subbed. Enjoy your content.

[@deathbywarcraft1157]

Love you Jim!

[@jimmurphy1591]

Deathbywarcraft 115 ditto

[@MrFleem]

I'm running a game for a 80% noob group. Borderline deadly encounters can be great for instruction, I've found.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Fleem Q Swipes awesome

[@mrmaat]

No one wants to fight 13 kobolds or 13 stirges. That’s just boring. Also, you’re correct that parties don’t take the recommend encounters per long and short rest. In my experience it’s usually 1-3 encounters before they call for a long rest.

[@jimmurphy1591]

mr. ma'at three is the planned I think by the writers

[@elgatochurro]

Yeah... i kinda don't like it, but at the very least it's a general guide imo

[@ascendednarwhal]

When players sleep Stirges do you have them take fall damage?

[@jimmurphy1591]

Ascended Narwhal that’s a good idea, incorporated!

[@cheeseburgerdave2463]

it is too me

[@GameNubQuin]

I think the system is okay but there are some Undead, like Shadows and Banshees, that I think deserve a bump to CR.

[@jimmurphy1591]

GameNub Quin I’m sure, I find a lot of issues.

[@F4R207]

No other role-playing game that I know of (except for the D&D clones) use CR (they instead trust the game master to use common sense and let the narrative and their creativity to solve any unforeseen issues) and I personally find it and the level progression and encounters per day and the loot per encounters useless, it's to me obvious that D&D is ment to be used with milestones progression tied to narrative points and that level is a descriptor of where the story (campaign) is at and not the individual character and that encounters should make narrative challenges and be thought of, as you mention with your example of the gibbering mouther in the water filled pit, from the narrative situation in which story, environment and other factors in regards to not only the characters but also the players personal enjoyments are taken into consideration. I feel that systems like these (the encounter per day, CR and the character class and loot progression that ties to it) hinders the creativity of game masters and hands them a crutch that they often never seem to let go off. Fortunately in this day of online media there's an ever growing source of great role-playing and game mastering examples to find as more and more are giving us access to their game sessions and experiences in videos, podcasts and articles.

[@jimmurphy1591]

F4R207 in RPGs most of this IS worthless once your experienced

[@F4R207]

Except that is what people are introduced with and if you never take in any other information, inspiration and suggestion from other sources then that's what you end up stuck with and it shows quite well when you compare the for example D&D dominated role-playing community in the US with for example the much more varied and diverse community in for example the Nordic countries like Sweden and its community. Though I do agree with you that experience should liberate and empower, some just steps into the medium with a carefree attitude of free exploration and do it naturally from the start. I still feel the introduction D&D offers are very restrictive in its mechanisms instead of embracing diversity and personal creativity. The 5th edition is the better edition for that though (out of the core books) with a more condensed structure and with more varied options in class and character expression (suggesting that everyone can do their own variations).

[@jimmurphy1591]

F4R207 I would agree with you completely. However, you have to function in the society you are in. It is why in many ways my old school group does not play D&D. We play modified TFT, Dragonquest, etc., but it’s just us and seldom grows much! If you want to play with others , you are much restricted.

[@F4R207]

Fair and well made point. The Swedish youth organization "SVEROK" have done wonders connecting people with in the RPG hobby (board gaming, miniature war gaming, LARPing and so on) through the now almost 40 years of its existence and it's one of the many reason we here (Sweden & Scandinavia) has such diversity with in our RPG community (the closeness to the LARPing community and communal Theater have also had its mark).

[@christopheralbert2545]

I am a big fan of Kobold Fight Club: kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder Super easy to use and uses a ton of sources for monsters (WoTC and 3rd Party).

[@jimmurphy1591]

Christopher Albert I have to check that out. Thanks

[@Jay0hAych]

The whole process of building encounters using an XP budget is, in my opinion, tiresome and tedious and leads to really bland encounters. I usually glance at the CR as a very general guideline, but honestly I don't balance encounters at all. I just choose monsters that are thematically appropriate and seem fun. If things break bad for my players, I just try to make sure they have a way to escape, which can lead to other interesting encounters.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Jesse Handrich that sounds right. Keep it up

[@agelatinouscube930]

Praise be to Methuselah! I make the mistake of RPing monsters. If you RP them as anything other than going for the kill, the CR plummets. I once had a level 9 minmaxed Pala-barian mince a CR17 Death Knight while separated from the party. The player got lucky with his rolls but good lord I ate some humble pie that day. Do you have any pointers on adapting CR for a higher volume party? I currently run for a party of 6

[@samgardner8456]

I've actually used that phenomenon to my advantage. I've thrown more dangerous monsters at my party knowing that if they grandstand and toy with the party, the party might find a lucky moment to strike. As for running a party of 6, I'd say start with CR as floor, and then tweak the enemy. Try to balance the action economy more than CR, include terrain hazards that affect both sides, and make sure to include enemy spellcasters and/or traps. The best advice I can give is to understand how CR works, so you can move beyond it.

[@alexp.4270]

If this will tell you anything of the math of challenge rating, I DM for a party of 8 players, and I regularly have to throw double their Challenge Rating at them. This is with carefully planned lairs, monster synergy, and all other tactics already considered BTW.

[@jimmurphy1591]

A Gelatinous Cube D&D 4th had a good rule that over I think 5 characters doubled the CR. But really just half or remove the modifiers and it works ok. Hell I was thirty until I learned that a standard party was not twelve.

[@drsch]

I get all the stuff that you're saying, but you're really having to reach and pull at threads to make the CR system even remotely useful. As an example, I was running an adventure yesterday with players in an Underdark setting. I put together an encounter that involved 3 Hook Horrors against 4 level 3 players. According to the CR system, it should have been deadly, but I honestly found myself fudging rolls and adding HP to the creatures to even make the encounter difficult for them. I've basically given up on the CR rating system and just run things based on my own personal experience. It's a completely useless metric.

[@jimmurphy1591]

drschplatt you are spot on. But I feel by the time you are running Hooked Horrors you have left the CR rating behind. It really is for new DMs and newer players. I never even glance at balance when I’m running for my group, I just know. But not always right

[@Matti_Mattsen]

I've been doing it like this for 2 years now. Works like a charm www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?367697-Encounter-difficulty-how-to-fix-it

[@russjohnson1715]

Is it worthless? No. Is it useful? No

[@jimmurphy1591]

Secret Antitheist kind of the way I feel. So once you don’t need it, you can stop using it and run the game

[@russjohnson1715]

Absolutely. There are better and easier ways to figure out how to challenge your players that don't hurt your head and involve just a small amount of on the fly maths.

[@mattm4557]

Balance is overrated.

[@RichardKurbis]

I never use ratings. I dont play it as a safespace. If you wanna take on a hard monster as a player... Im not going to stop you.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Richard Kurbis I feel the same way and you might have heard a story or two