Is DSD BETTER than PCM? Cen.Grand DSDAC 1.0 Deluxe DAC review

[@chipsnmydip]

From listening to, and also working with DSD as a recording medium, for the last 20 years, I would say that the "small signal" problem is actually the inverse of what you think it is. DSD is far more resolving than PCM at low level details, as well as impulse timing. With the tiny 1 bit increment it is extremely easy for the format to reproduce the bottom of the dynamic range. Where it struggles are actually loud signals. PCM can go from 0 to (theoretical) 144db in one sample. DSD cannot do instant amplitude jumps like this. For this reason, it is the macrodynamic and loud signals, esp in the high frequencies, that tend to have the most rounded envelope. When recording, we even found that we could push a DSD recorder up to the level of digital clipping, and it would only soften the sound like a tape machine. Supposedly, the higher the sample rates ease this problem. I think they do with some thing like EMM Labs/Meitner, but it still has that very smooth quality. BTW, noise floor modulation is a problem with R2R DACs too.

[@shs747]

This explanation makes so much sense. Thanks for that. I have always enjoyed DSD for how relaxing it is, but when I listen to PCM the sound is much more dynamic.

[@PassionforSound]

I thought I'd replied to the OP already - sorry for missing this. I think part of the challenge here is that there's PCM as it's done by most companies (ESS, AKM, etc.) and then there's PCM done to a high level via HQ Player/Chord DACs, etc. In those latter examples, the timing accuracy is improved and the differences tilt back in favour of PCM (IMO). I do think I'd choose a DSD-based DAC over any of the Delta Sigma PCM chip-based DACs I've tried. I can't speak to the recording side of things as I did no research into that.

[@oysteinsoreide4323]

NO. DSD is not more resolving than PCM. That is a pure lie. It is just a different way to lay out the same information.

[@techmed-rainer]

Danke!

[@PassionforSound]

You're welcome and thank you!

[@aceofspades6667]

Very cool stuff glad to see a new brand gaining a Foothold.

[@PassionforSound]

Me too. A good brand trying new things (or at least less common thing) can only drive more innovation. 🙂

[@chipsnmydip]

I'm a fan of DSD and DSD DACs specifically because the bass just sounds more right to me, sounds seem more immediate, possesses more depth, and there is less ear fatigue. But it really doesn't to an energetic, tall sound with sharp treble clarity very well. I think most PCM errs in that way too much, with artificially sharp edges, stiff bass, and flat soundstage.

[@PassionforSound]

I agree. I'd take a nice DSD setup over many PCM setups too.

[@igorkrajnc5915]

@@PassionforSound Hello , so do you think that PCM track converted to DSD sounds better as just PCM track even if dac is hi end ( Ideon audio ION dac ) ?

[@elthamlad468]

As a Cen.Grand DSDAC 1.0 owner, I 100% agree with everything in this review. Spot on assessment. I will update this review. I have the basic 1.0 Standard. I have recently bought a Cayin CS100 DAC, which is a very capable ESS DAC that costs double the Cen.grand; I was very surprised when doing side by side comparison as you have done, in that when listening to the Cen.grand, you can almost think that the detail is lacking because it sounds so smooth and the bass has real meat on the bones. However, when direct A/B comparing I realise that all the detail of the highly resolving ESS DAC is 99% there. At first I never understood why others were so enthusiastic about the Cen.grand, but now I do. The Cen.grand DSDAC 1.0, even the standard model, is comparable to DACs double its RRP. That is quite the achievement in my book.

[@PassionforSound]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on it!

[@asan1050]

Thank you for posting.

[@PassionforSound]

Always a pleasure!

[@keiths1969]

Excellent review. Very thorough like always which I really appreciate. I own a number of DSD albums and even both PCM version and DSD version of the same album (Roger Waters - Amused to Death) and what you’ve described about the sound of that DAC is exactly what I’ve found comparing the DSD version to the PCM version. The DSD version is more relaxed and easy to listen to, almost has characteristics of analog but with none of the typical drawbacks of analog. PCM can sometimes be a bit edgy. I saw an interesting recent interview of Mark Levinson (now with Daniel Hertz Audio Systems) talking about some tests they’ve done on people, hooking up probes or whatever, and measuring their responses to analog music then to PCM digital music and their brainwaves or stress hormones or whatever (they measured a few different things on them) gave similar to a stress response when listening to digital PCM files. Was very interesting. That’s probably another reason that DSD is a more relaxing listen.

[@PassionforSound]

That's very interesting! Part of the challenge of course is that the processing of the PCM is more complex at the output stage (one of DSD's strengths) and so there's PCM and there's PCM...

[@PeterHas]

There are a couple other manufacturers who also sell products that convert everything to DSD. Marantz with their SACD 30n (I believe every product using their Marantz Musical Mastering dac converts all signals to DSD), and Esoteric I think do so with all their dacs and CD players. Very interesting to see others also go down this route.

[@jimfarrell4635]

Of course you can do it in Roon without fancy hardware. Also the ET3 cd transport from Shanling will take your cds and convert to Dsd for output to usb or i2s. Never heard it, though.

[@PeterHas]

@@jimfarrell4635 I've seen that it's possible to do in software, but I haven't tried it myself. Presumably if a company decides to create the whole dac around DSD conversion they would also optimize the rest of their design around how it sounds, like the analog output stage, hopefully achieving better results than software DSD conversion on a "normal" dac. Usually DSD feels like an extra, because PCM dominates digital sound.

[@jimfarrell4635]

​@@PeterHasI agree, Peter. A well implemented hardware solution will likely sound better. I was thinking of Roon as a way of trying DSD conversion before spending the big bucks. I use a Terminator Plus and am happy it will optimise whatever I feed it. A non switchable DSD conversion seems limiting.

[@PassionforSound]

Having played a bit with DSD conversion in Roon, its influence isn't as profound as in a DAC like this and that will come back to things like the way the DSD output is filtered into the final analog output (other DACs will have more complicated processes designed for PCM audio). However, Roon can provide some approximation of the sound of DSD as I've described it here.

[@dajikbatarang1]

Is this the dac that is trying to clone to playback designs?

[@PassionforSound]

I don't believe so. As far as I know, the approach is custom designed, but inspired by the approach taken by Meitner Audio.

[@BillyKueekSG]

Thanks for this review Lachlan. I like the comparison with the TT2 which helps me learn about this DAC’s sound. I’ll stick to my M-Scaler and TT2 for now, still the best sound I’d heard or I can use my R26 for it’s very-analog sound. I used to prefer the sound of DSDs than other files but ever since I got the Silent Angel Rhein Z1 Plus as my Roon Server, every format sounds better, including DSDs cos the Z1+ just elevate the sound of everything. It makes everything sounds better.

[@PassionforSound]

That's a great point that the quality of the whole source chain can influence whether the PCM or DSD sound is better. As the source chain gets better, the smoothness of DSD might be less needed

[@BillyKueekSG]

@@PassionforSound thanks for breaking it down so I understand. The Z1+ also makes DSDs sound better than before

[@jakobgooijer]

Nice review again 👍. My Fiio M11pro has also the feature to upsample everything to DSD. But I never use it.

[@PassionforSound]

I tried it briefly with the M17 while I had it and it does make a different, but I think the output stage is still designed for PCM so I'm guessing you don't get the benefits of the simple low pass filtering that a dedicated DSD design has.

[@jakobgooijer]

​@@PassionforSound Besides that, the device gets hot quickly in DSD mode and it drains the battery quickly

[@PassionforSound]

Very true

[@thomasgunn4146]

Would love to see a comparison with the PS Audio Directstream MK ii

[@PassionforSound]

I've tried a few times to get a PS Audio DAC, but no luck yet...

[@IHearEverythingDude]

Question, how level matching was done?

[@vaneast411]

probably company to look out for in the future

[@PassionforSound]

Definitely!

[@shanestephenson8423]

Hi mate, anytime you're ready, the invitation is open to come and have a listen to the final word in dsd dacs the playback designs mpd-8 built by Andreas Koch the designer of DSD.😁🎧👍

[@PassionforSound]

Still keen to once I get my head above water!

[@fatdoi003]

maybe my dac is not as good but in general classical on DSD is resolution galore but the notes are too round and smooth (as you said) which lacks energy compared to WAV files...

[@PassionforSound]

That sounds about right based on what I heard here too.

[@jaybrodnax]

HQPlayer is the best reason for and use of DSD

[@PassionforSound]

Which DAC(s) do you feed DSD to with HQP?

[@jaybrodnax]

@@PassionforSound Gustard R26, it has a dedicated DSD chip, in addition to R2R for PCM

[@JtwasLuck]

@@jaybrodnax The R26 is amazing esp. when upsampling! DSD is def. the way to go.

[@JohnSmithisnotme]

Love the DSD remastering feature in my Sony WM1AM2, bigger sound and non-fatiguing imo. Sony and Playback Design probably have the best DSD DACS.

[@SartajAnand]

Great review! Would love to get your take on how the DSDAC 1.0 Deluxe compares to the Gustard R26 or the Audio GD R7/R8HEMK3?

[@PassionforSound]

I haven't tried the Audio-gd DACs so can't comment there, but the DSDAC is a good step above the R26. To me, the DSDAC is performing on the same level as the Chord TT2 (but with a different style). The R26 is a step below these two, but still an excellent DAC. I provided some comparisons between the R26 and TT2 in my R26 review that might help describe the differences further.

[@SartajAnand]

@@PassionforSound Thanks Lachlan for your illuminating reviews. I'm charting out my upgrade path from the R26, so searching for a giant killer.

[@PassionforSound]

I don't know that there's a true giant killer DAC beyond the R26 (which is already very impressive for the money). I think the DSDAC 1.0 is excellent, but maybe not the same value for money as the R26 in terms of price : performance. I'm hoping to review the new Yggdrasil MIB version soon so stay tuned as that might hit the sweet spot...

[@drunkenhearted7256]

Is DSD better? Assuming mastering is the same, weather pure analog to DSD or PCM to DSD yes!

[@PassionforSound]

I was referring to the DAC processing side of things with all formats. I can't personally comment on the format as a whole from recording through to playback.

[@RyuMasterEX]

Most people I know prefered dsd1024, the higher the better. To me it was better than DSD512 in every area, perhaps synergy? It was also more detailed and bigger sounding than the may kte. Dsd strength as someone mentioned is the finer details, taller soundstage, better imaging, better transients. It's bass is less full and dynamic so almost like an e-stat kind of sound but this is because most amps don't give their headphones enough bass drive and most headphones roll off bass. Dsd is just better and more true. This is a good plug and play dac, if you want to get serious, get a good PC and try hqplayer with powerful modulators playing dsd1024

[@PassionforSound]

I feel like DSD1024 got a bit too soft and didn't sound as realistic when thinking about how a live performance would sound. Nice that it gives the choice though 🙂

[@RyuMasterEX]

@@PassionforSound interesting for me the main standout when going up in dsd levels is bigger soundstage and more treble detail which usually thins out the sound. Dsd sweetens and softens this surplus of treble detail so it's not harsh but ultra resolute at the same time. I found dsd1024 to have a more dynamic bass than DSD512 on the DSDAC for some reason too. Perhaps that's how it is with the voyager, really would like to try

[@PassionforSound]

Are you referring specifically to the DSDAC 1.0 or DSD in general?

[@RyuMasterEX]

@@PassionforSound DSDAC1.0 deluxe + other dsd dacs I've tried such as t+a dac200, may kte, spring 3 kte. Ideally you want a powerful computer to drive the upsampling but for people who want an easy cheaper solution, dsdac gives you a lot of the dsd goodness

[@KLiNoTweet]

DSD really is that good.

[@m_c_8656]

colock blocking is a violation of the bro code.

[@yasunakaikumi]

the simple reason why you kind of hear the DSD sounds more smooth is that DSD has lower gain than PCM, most PCM format music that you can buy in the market goes 0db without a problem, meanwhile if you try to conver that PCM to DSD it will sound less gain and a lot of DSD music that you can buy also are pretty much PCM recorded tracks so there's that.

[@PassionforSound]

This was tested with PCM input files and volume matched with the TT2. It's not about gain. 🙂

[@igorkrajnc5915]

Hello , so do you think that PCM track converted to DSD sounds better as just PCM track even if dac is hi end ( Ideon audio ION dac ) ?

[@PassionforSound]

Not necessarily better - it will depend entirely on the DACs involved, but what I learned through this process would suggest that DSD DACs will carry some similar properties such as a warmer sound, perhaps a larger soundstage (whether accurate or not), etc.

[@net_news]

Amazing review!! Finally chinese companies started to try new things!! PS Audio and others did it before sure, but It's the first chinese DAC that focuses on DSD and converts everything to it.

[@PassionforSound]

Glad you liked it. As you say, not the first to do it, but nice to see another fully bespoke DAC and not just another ESS/AKM design (not that these are bad, but we have so many already)

[@WoodstockG54]

The amount of money we spend on pursuing the perfect sound, we be better off just hiring a band once a week.

[@PassionforSound]

That's a great idea! 😁

[@carminedesanto6746]

GM ☕️ Watching…well a actually listening at work 🤔

[@medonk12rs]

8:15 -- Tarun came to the same conclusion. ;-)

[@PassionforSound]

Nice to know I'm not alone!

[@Manupassero]

crazy cost...

[@alphaniner3770]

I agree - in a couple of years a DAC that costs a fraction of this price will probably perform at an equal level.

[@massivemikeh]

Doubt it...but we shall see.

[@PassionforSound]

It's definitely expensive, but it's performing towards its price by comfortably beating the Yggdrasil OG which is an excellent DAC.

[@kkklllaaa1234]

Overpriced?

[@PassionforSound]

Not based on what I was hearing.

[@jimromanski2702]

Too bad they don't include an I2S input to fully use the capabilities of SACD and DSD.

[@PassionforSound]

That would have been a nice addition!

[@marcellavankraaij]

@@PassionforSound they offer native DSD over USB that is in my situation even a better feature.

[@shaunyweaver1144]

DSD all the way, real downer so little material available .. Beta max or VHS, VHS won out but not the better system .

[@VirusForPrez]

I myself have 428 sacds which have all been ripped to hard drive using a PS3 with sacd-ripper . Ordered 4 more this week !

[@shaunyweaver1144]

@@VirusForPrez Yes I purchase mine from Japan ..

[@PassionforSound]

I never got into SACD, unfortunately...

[@shaunyweaver1144]

@@PassionforSound It really is a step up, some will say it isn't, but my ears tell me differently . You can pick players up for peanuts, pioneer sony etc . The only bug bear is most will only pass the format through rca, not digital (that's a long story) although Toshiba released one that did, forget the model number . But there are devices that can rip from HDMI AV units giving optical coax digital outs .

[@oysteinsoreide4323]

DSD is smooth because it is not good at conveying low volume high frequency information, and thus will sound smooth. And it is not actually easy to do the convertion. The easiest is PCM which you eaasily can make an R2R DAC. It may not sound good, but it will be very easy to make. R2R DACs was the topology in the start of the digital audio era.

[@alstonmaccow9386]

Why do I feel it’s going to be expensive

[@PassionforSound]

It's got that look about it... 😉

[@SergeySedlovsky]

Oh, so now pun intended I get it, clock blocking, ok lol

[@PassionforSound]

😁

[@n00buo]

the title hahah, awesome.

[@PassionforSound]

😁

[@swastikprusty]

For the money they are asking for a made in china product you can go for ps audio direct stream, which i guess is made in us and hold their value

[@davidcross890]

Hold their value ??? Are you joking?

[@chipsnmydip]

I'd opt for a Meitner or Playback Designs, which I think are built better and have less noise (and color).

[@njm1971nyc]

I'd rather go for the Chinese design, myself. Not that I'd blow that kind of money on any DAC! PS are very snake-oily.

[@PassionforSound]

Judging any product based on where it's made is a poor measure IMO. China has invested huge amounts of money into their manufacturing infrastructure and can produce technology that is on par and sometimes even better than other countries. Every country has great brands and not so great brands.

[@alphaniner3770]

​@@PassionforSoundindeed, while the traditional cheap crap is still produced en masse, the quality stuff can easily compete with other countries, often at a more competitive price. Components in the gear often come from various places all over the world anyways - and looking where critical components (caps, opamps, transformers etc) come from is often more important than the brand on the casing.

[@bishonen2pm]

That title LMAO 🤣 😂

[@PassionforSound]

😁

[@HungryEatNow]

It’s just a matter of pocket size…

[@PassionforSound]

Pocket size?

[@carminedesanto6746]

At those levels of price/ performance..you’re looking at nuances.

[@PassionforSound]

Absolutely. I'd say the differences between the TT2 and DSDAC are beyond nuances when compared, but the question of which is better definitely comes down to some nuanced decision making around price, design, features, and sound signature/character because both are excellent!

[@Douglas_Blake_579]

_"Is DSD better than PCM?"_ Let me answer that for you in one word ... No

[@phpn99]

The level of BS here is astronomical. DSD is merely the direct recording of the oversampled Delta-Sigma modulation. Modern, oversampled PCM recordings are also DS modulation, except with a filtered decimation step to encode the bit stream into a word stream. The noise shaping, the resolution are the same.

[@PassionforSound]

As I understand it, DSD is true, 1-bit processing in setups like this. PCM based DACs (including all the Delta Sigma ones) use a multibit approach that's different to true DSD. As I said in the video. I'm not qualified to discuss the intricacies, but wanted to share some basic info that made sense with what I was hearing.

[@Bigirondoug]

Sorry NOTHING from China for me.