Is Fake London Really That Bad? (A Reply to NJB)

[@nicthedoor]

If you are not familiar with what a stroad is, feel free to watch this video from Not Just Bikes kzbin.info/www/bejne/hYPdf42Lmrp7d68si=_N24NTobASCDgzIr

[@user-sy6ky6ed2e]

That video is biased against cars

[@Banedragon]

Nice work on the thumbnail I thought it was just not bikes

[@thespectator1243]

@niclaporte: Thank you for sharing your perspective. It's always good to see a problem from more then just one point of view. I really hope more people in the world are getting orange pilled, though. Sometimes, just being aware of a problem will make all the difference in the world (even if it still will take some time to actually fix the problem; but you gotta start somewhere). Yes, Jason might go a bit far sometimes, but given his vision, I think he has never gone TO far.... but this is just my personal opinion. Greetings from across the pond! :D

[@fredashay]

I used to like his channel and generally agreed with him about stroads and the benefits of alternate ways to get around, but I discovered that he is clearly a fa5c15t who wants to force everyone to ride bicycles everywhere, in the blistering heat of summer and freezing cold of winter. Now, if you want to ride a bicycle everywhere in extreme horrible weather, that's your business and should be your right. But that's not what I want to endure. I'll keep my car, thank you very much.

[@longiusaescius2537]

@obimk1104 Dutch?

[@Jacob_Waller]

I don't think Jason is calling London worse than anywhere else. He is commenting on the fact that it's not unique. London is a cookie cutter suburb that you can find everywhere in North America

[@nicthedoor]

That's exactly what I tried to express in the conclusion. Thanks 👍

[@TheTroyc1982]

London is not a suburb

[@thiccum2668]

@@TheTroyc1982I think he means suburban development

[@Demopans5990]

@TheTroyc1982 Looks like a suburb to me. If there are more trees than people, it's not a city

[@guynicoletti5811]

@@Demopans5990the trees are a deliberate strategy…has no correlation to whether a given place is a city.

[@jaro6985]

Seems like a reasonable take, the potential is there as you show. But to me 70%+ of trips by car stat alone is enough to justify the criticism.

[@jerredhamann5646]

70% by car is not even bad by north america there are some areas that are like 90%

[@gytan2221]

@@jerredhamann5646 there are some with 100%

[@neiotik]

⁠being slightly above a low bar is still abysmal. 30% is still a failing grade.

[@nntflow7058]

It's bad once you experienced something better.....

[@toffeeFairy]

​@@jerredhamann5646 yeah and north america isn't what he's comparing it to lol

[@nyanbadacc5228]

Hello! Fake London resident here (my house is even in your video)! While Jason is occasionally hyperbolic about his sentiment regarding fake London, I don't really think it is misplaced. I commute on my bike in London and surrounding area around 250km per week and while I still prefer it over driving, it is an awful experience. The bike lanes exist, they just don't connect to each other so you're forced onto extraordinarily dangerous stroads here and there. The bike lanes are often riddled with potholes, overgrowth, and debris that isn't present on the roads so I often see cyclists preferring the roads over the poorly maintained bicycle lanes as well. I think a prime example of both of these points is Wonderland road southbound between Sarnia road and Riverside drive. There is a (mostly) grade separated bike lane there, but it is so poorly maintained that the stroad that is Wonderland is genuinely preferable to cycle on. It also just randomly ends for a small portion at the intersection of Oxford road, so you have to join traffic anyways by crossing 2 lanes which is absurd. There are other points along that stretch that randomly terminate into the sidewalk for a portion (If it is illegal to cycle on the sidewalk, why did they design it this way? It makes no sense.) The problem with fake London is a problem that is also shared by many other North American cities more generally, that being the complete disregard for anything that is not an automobile by both the general populace and past local politicians. Even when policies or infrastructure are put in place that are meant to be for people who do not operate automobiles, it is so disjointed and contorted because it is made from the perspective of someone who exclusively uses an automobile for transportation. London is a great symbol for North American failures in transportation and I'm happy Jason is showcasing those failures. The city is improving ever so slowly, but it simply isn't fast enough. I've personally gotten rid of my car and have committed to nearly exclusively using my bike to get around, but that may genuinely be the death of me. Just this week I was bumped into by a motorist who was texting and driving on Dundas; It wasn't enough to cause damage to me or my bike, but it is still cause for major concern. Apologies for my incoherent rant.

[@roelkomduur8073]

I met a Canadian couple last mouth, just outside Duisburg Germany. They were retired, biking across Europe ( second time!). I was on my way biking to Basel. Got in a conversation with them, talking about bike infra, mentioned NJB,.. they knew the channel.. Guess were they came from? London Ont.!! They fully agreed with NJB on London.. You always meet nice people when biking. Greetings from Yellow bike.

[@julietardos5044]

I've observed that putting up posts to separate bike lanes from roads increases trash and weeds because the street sweepers can no longer get to the bike lane blocked by the posts. Sigh.

[@saturday1066]

"forced onto extraordinarily dangerous stroads" I have a different risk/reward metric than you (and a lot of folks, tbh) but I'm still curious: what is your "reward" to justify risk of "extraordinarily dangerous stroads"? I'm not trying to be critical. I'm just trying to understand what you get out of increased lethality on a daily basis. real question (not snark): do/would you ride a motorcycle? p.s. does "here and there" mean multiple times? both directions of commute? p.p.s. on the right side of your keyboard, there is an extra large key marked "return/enter." you could avail yourself of that - free of charge - if you wanted to.

[@nyanbadacc5228]

@@saturday1066 The reward for justifying the risk is not being homeless; Being able to get to work in a timely manner helps with that. I cannot afford a motorcycle nor can I afford a car; Even if I could, I probably would still try to ride a bicycle as it is better for the planet and it keeps me healthy though. "Here and there" is an idiom meaning "occasionally". I do not plan on wasting my time making my KZbin comments look nice for your pleasure :)

[@nyanbadacc5228]

@@julietardos5044 We actually have small street sweepers for bicycle lanes here in fake London! They just never seem to leave the downtown area unfortunately. Many of the worst bike lanes for debris here are at the same grade as the stroad and are without plastic bollards. For example, Hyde Park Road.

[@guidoferri8683]

Summary: is fake London really bad? Yes, but it's slowly improving, kinda

[@nntflow7058]

1% improvement is kind of meh......

[@lilacghoste8366]

Freaking 20 years, sooo slow

[@Paul_C]

As a tourist: Would I enjoy London Ontario? Eh, no. Most tourist do not have a car to move around: Delete London from the destination list.

[@Fler64]

This. Was waiting for the arguments that fake London isn't as bad as NJB says, but he was mostly agreeing. The improvements won't have much impact and these big NA cities seem unfixable

[@AbrahamCasillas-t3o]

And eventually fails like many American cities.

[@roelkomduur8073]

NJB is making people aware of their surroundings, how infrastructural choices impact their lives. Quite rightly he is not just talking about bike lanes. To me as a Dutchman, it's impossible to understand that a city that " is the fastest growing city of Canada" doesn't have a clue how to do that correctly. No trains, no busses, no trams.. just build the same ole suburbs.. If i compare that to new build cites in the Netherlands ( yes we have them, 40% of our land we made ourselves) it is pathetic! To say that JNB is exaggerating is shortsighted and stupid. NOW is the time to build better, to invest in liveable city! Now you have the opportunity to do things right the first time. Be bold! Stop these stupid endless discussions over bike lanes that cost a few mil, while spending billions on a couple of km's highway.. Hereby want to thank NJB for making me aware of the incredible infrastructure in my country, what i take for granted...

[@ZeBoy85]

Did you know that my hometown Melbourne Australia has more trams and tram tracks than the entire Netherlands? It’s not that he’s exaggerating it’s just that when he talks about places that aren’t European he tends to go in often half-cocked without all the facts… like I’ve never seen a NJB video showing protected bike infrastructure in London, Ontario like is shown in this video and yes while it doesn’t have much it’s hypocrisy to say that it doesn’t have any at all especially when this video shows that it even has legacy infrastructure that doesn’t match the new protected bike lanes which looks at least 10 years older. This is what’s called a fallacy something that could potentially be used to undermine his argument. And here’s the thing we people of countries that aren’t the Netherlands or Europe mostly agree with NJB most of us are actively fighting against NIMBY’s for better infrastructure. Jason is great his channel is part of the reason I became more aware of my city and it’s infrastructure but what Jason doesn’t do is champion actual change and developments in our cities he says that they’ll never change that there isn’t a desire to change. If you read my earlier post you would see that Edmonton a small mining town in northern Canada has invested $100 million Canadian dollars into pedestrian and bicycle infrastructure, that’s unheard of pretty much anywhere outside of the Netherlands and they aren’t orange pilled?

[@KnzoVortex]

I think you’ve gotten your definitions of “exaggerated” and “acceptable” mixed up here. Nic never claimed London Ontario was a particularly well-planned city by any means, just that it’s a little more than having literally zero redeeming qualities as NJB has been portraying it. As you know, the state of North American urban planning is abysmally bad, so these differences are important for people in North America, especially in giving indications on where momentum towards better urban planning seems to be forming. Ultimately, I feel like your main gripe is that this video didn’t highlight how awful the standards for city design in North America are. And sure, maybe possibly if this video had more of a criticizing tone more people might come out of it wanting to change things, but I’ve found a lot of people in the US/Canada who watch NJB just end up feeling angry and hopeless about their cities. Wide scale change like this is difficult, and unlike the Netherlands and many other places, we have had and still have a gangantuan prescience of the car industry fighting for its benefit in the area. What we need is to spread the message of reasonable urbanism in North America so people voting with this in mind, and we need people engaging with local government to convince them we care about these things. On both fronts, the fight is going to be hard, and I think there is a place for both anger arousing and more chilled out and even optimistic content for urbanism minded North Americans for our own sanity, it’s not like us being angry all the time is gonna manifest into changes in our cities or that a less harsh tone is gonna make people feel like everything is fine.

[@roelkomduur8073]

Ah, Melbourne. Been there, seen it( got an auntie living in Geelong, such a nice bike friendly place. Come to think about her , she must be one of oldest residents with her well over 100 years..) Of course you have more tram track then we have ( you would be Houston if you haven't ) You and others non Dutch/European are so f*cking complacent!! You think that the 100 mil Can,$ in 4 years that Edmonton is PLANNING to spend is a lot of money and that that isn't getting attention enough? Or that Jason doesn't give attention to a bike path in London U.K? ( he did one on the remarkable transformation in Paris..) Good Urban infrastructure is not some "quirky European " or "fashion " thing.. It is a necessity to keep this planet alive! In a couple of years most of the people on Earth will be living in cities, unless we want to live in human hellholes like Mumbai, Houston or Cairo, we must take MORE action! You as resident of Auzzieland must know that! Soon you have 50 degrees C summers like in Texas and Phoenix...Your/our currant model is unsustainable in the NEAR future..Nuclear subs might save you from the Chinese, but won't save you from climate change.This is what NJB in a gentle way is trying to tell. To come back to London Ontario,. 400.000 citizens and no mention able trains, busses or trams is laughable! "But we working on it..." Tell that to you grandchildren. Morons! BTW We got NIMBY's too. @@ZeBoy85

[@perfectallycromulent]

well there's the issue. the netherlands is so small and densely populated that you need to turn one of europe's largest river deltas into an entirely unnatural terrain, while canada is the second largest country in the world, and one of the least densely populated.

[@roelkomduur8073]

This is exactly what i mean with "complacent " We had the hottest summer on record...It took us in the Netherlands 30 od years to plan and build what we have now. Do you really think that you have another 30 years to change? We have a car industry also, i live 40 clicks from the German border( so our economics are very close)..They build cars over there you know.May bee you know some of the brands...Even they are investing in change.. I understand the politics of the US, done a year highschool there, i understand the Jewish Space laser fanatics.. But we're running out of time here. @@KnzoVortex

[@johnnevada46]

I was brought up in South London (Askin Street) in the 1960s - until my parents moved back to the 'real' London in England. From the age of 6 or 7, I cycled, walked, or got the bus everywhere around the city. My parents had no idea where my friends and I went on long summer days and I always came home with adventures to tell. I revisited London recently and was shocked at how ugly, boring, and car-dominated the city had become. The vibrant downtown I remember was replaced with parking lots. I also noticed the sad absence of kids on the streets. How do they make any friends?

[@rituwebpro]

Wow your lucky. Wish i could move to London UK.

[@DvonBrandenburg]

I'm sorry to hear this. I was often in London as a child and have fond memories. This saddens me.

[@baronvonlimbourgh1716]

They don't.

[@bussesandtrains1218]

​@@rituwebprodon't. It has its own problems Move to York or smth instead

[@jewhunterbiden]

@@rituwebpro londistan

[@illhaveawtrplz]

It sounds like your rebuttal amounts to “Jason is 95% right, but London is making some progress”. I’m glad it’s getting better! But I’m not sure that it’s the most effective counter-argument...

[@ketchup901]

It's not a counter-argument, it's just expanding and providing more insight.

[@Lancelot9587]

@@ketchup901its exactly as you say. This is less of a rebuttal; it’s more like providing context

[@rlwelch]

Sometimes the point isn't to argue, it's to learn things :)

[@beardannyboy]

I just moved to Fake London from Ottawa, and my impression so far is that a) The number of Stroads cutting through the city is insane. b) Most of the local citizens have a severe case of "Car-brain", where the default assumption is you go everywhere and do everything in your car, and so does everyone else. c) There's a notable homeless problem around downtown, with encampments in all of the nearby greenspaces, and it seems the suburbanites like to pretend it doesn't exist. I think that people in the safe bubble of their car tend to ignore everything they are driving past. d) 90% of the city is designed like a suburb, with neighborhoods of single story detached houses complete with setbacks and lawns being everywhere, and much of downtown being littered with empty parking lots, and all the shopping being pushed to the outskirts in clusters of big box stores. e) The trees are nice, it's not called the forest city for nothing, but I'm certain the existing trees are a massive barrier to development due to over-zealous protections put on them.

[@pdblouin]

I mean...I've lived in Ottawa for a decade (and Sudbury, ON before that) and you're basically describing both of those cities also. You're describing this whole continent.

[@beardannyboy]

@@pdblouin I was in the downtown of Ottawa, so maybe the experience in the 'burbs is different, but in Ottawa there was a much lower density of stroads, King eddy being the worst example, and those stroads had lower speeds and more frequent crossings. The bike network was much better developed, I was able to easily get across the downtown to any other part of the city without feeling like I had to fight my way through car traffic. The neighborhoods are generally denser, without the massive proliferation of front lawns and setbacks you see in London, and with plenty of 3-4 story apartments and townhouses. And there wasn't nearly so much space dedicated to parking. London has an excess of parking lots and dedicated street parking EVERYWHERE.

[@nicthedoor]

Very well said.

[@agilemind6241]

The trees are not the problem, it is clearly the zoning & mandatory parking laws to me. I also recently moved to Fake London, but to one of the "mixed use" neighbourhoods featured in the video, and there are half a dozen apartment buildings of different sizes and almost all of them include significant greenspace and lawns on their lots. The one that doesn't is because more than half of the lot is dedicated to parking. 1/3 of the houses are multi-unit, and we have a few small townhouse developments. The townhouses have a similar problem as the apartment buildings with significant portions of their lot dedicated to parking, meanwhile the neighbourhood streets are ridiculously wide and easily accomodate on-street parking near the businesses. Meaning there is effectively 2 parking spaces in the neighbourhood for every car in this neighbourhood. If the city outlawed expanding outwards, and eliminated the crazy parking requirements there is tons of space in the city to accomodate growth through densification without cutting down a single tree.

[@SpencerGatten]

I would say Car Brain is very prominent here, when it comes to tree protection you betcha! if you cut down 1 tree you have to plant 3 in its place

[@anthonyarundel727]

Largely supports NJB. In fact, this more in depth look at London Ontario made me think that it was worse than what Jason described! But even a city that is denser and visibly beautiful can be terrible for cyclists and pedestrians - inner Sydney Australia for example.

[@luk5464]

Seems a good a fair assessment, but Jason has always said that Canada is mostly better than the US when it comes to walkability and that often Canada makes it at least theoretically possible to get places without a car. He never used Fake London as THE prime example of bad urban planning. He just uses it because that's what he knows best.

[@bararobberbaron859]

I think he used Houston as that? Or at least a Texan city iirc.

[@abatall]

@@bararobberbaron859houston was the worst he said

[@sonicblare]

Dude, when you said you took 2009 data, and showed kids biking on sidewalks, I lost you. You've probably never had a close call with a 50mph truck. It's life changing

[@realityblooms]

Yeah I don’t get the message he’s trying to prove. “It’s safer to bike on this stroad than Jason suggest, but not 100% chance you make it to your destination alive”

[@notcreativebush5702]

So it’s not a suicide, but just a russian roulette, got it that’s much better.

[@woodpeckerer]

I mean yeah, I think he was making a more logical, data-based argument than one based on emotion. People have had all kinds of experiences with cars, no close calls, close calls, and full-on hits. To be clear, it would also be unreasonable for someone to say "Dude, when you said London is still kind of bad based on x data, I lost you. I've never been hit by a car and my life has exclusively been enriched by them!" because this is also an anecdote.

[@Jet-ij9zc]

​@@realitybloomsthere's never a 100% chance

[@BrokenCurtain]

​@Jet-ij9zc One of my chemistry teachers once said that the laws of Brownian motion mean that if you open a door to a room, there's a slight chance that all the air in the room will escape through the opening. The probability of that happening is just very, very small. So when someone says that crossing a stroad isn't suicide because there's a chance I'll make it to the other side alive, that's what I'm reminded of.

[@humanecities]

Great breakdown! I’ve never been to London, ON. Something I’ve noticed as I’ve traveled more is that Canadian cities are much better off than we sometimes think. There’s also a lot of potential across the country! I think Jason’s videos had woken a lot of people up to the problems! I’m happy to see so many urbanist creators on YT, IG, and elsewhere adding to the call for change.

One thing I always wonder is whether there is really a big surge in new urbanists, or whether we are in a bubble of KZbin’s algorithm giving us that impression?

[@carmenl163]

Why does 'a lot of potential' sounds so optimistic, while in fact, you'd never say that to a cancer patient?

@@carmenl163 because a city isn’t a cancer patient. There are known solutions to the historic urban planning mistakes, based on what’s been done elsewhere. Cancer on the other hand doesn’t have any great solutions right now.

[@ATjfds]

The "Not Not Just Bikes" intro with the horn was so funny

[@ShouriHandpan]

As a london commuter who mainly uses ebike to get anywhere the city has made a good deal of impvoments to the infrastructure. But still has a lot to work on to make it better. The busses could use some love as it takes an hour to get anywhere in the city

[@SpencerGatten]

London busing is almost always "show up whenever you want day"

[@bramharms72]

As a Dutchman who's been following Jason since the beginning I must say that it's always been clear he makes London (the one that isn't London) into a strawman to point out common problems. That said, at the first pictures you showed of London (the one that literally no one in the world can pinpoint on a map) my clear gut reaction was "hell hole". Some indoctrination might have taken place over the years... 🙄 So it's good you made this thoughtful video. I enjoyed it.

[@BrokenCurtain]

Just to clarify: a "straw man argument" or "straw man attack" is a logical fallacy and dishonest debate tactic where someone assigns a position to the other side that's different from the argument they're actually making because it's easier to refute. For example, I support investment in public transportation and cycling infrastructure because that makes cities more liveable - but I occassionally encounter folks in the comment sections who'll claim that people like me "just can't afford to buy a car and are envious of car owners". That's a straw man attack. I believe what you actually meant to say is that Jason is using London, Ontario as his "go-to example" for bad urban planning and might occasionally exaggerate the situation to get his point across. That's not really a straw man, but as a fellow non-native English speaker, I get that it's easy to mix-up terms like this.

[@bramharms72]

@@BrokenCurtain Ha ha! 😁 My friend, I thank you for being so concerned about my educational wellbeing (relax, I made that one up) that you took upon yourself the effort of writing a such hefty reply. But just because I appreciate your effort doesn't mean I agree with it. Not that I could if I would, I can't, this is the internet. I'm legally obliged to die on a hill of semantics if the call so comes. So to battle it is! Everything you say is correct but you describe just a single use of a figurative strawman. It's a logical device that can be used as a caricature, teaching aid, scapegoat, someone to talk to, lover (ok, some of those are better classed as symptoms). This is true in Dutch, but we use logical concepts in a similar way the English speaking western countries do. In replying to you I do notice I strain the edges of my English vocabulary for thinking about eh.. mental stuff. So don't make me do it all over again. 😜 Wishing you the very best.

[@baronvonlimbourgh1716]

Yeah, london is just a stand in for any random north american city.

[@shaunpcoleman]

I live in Waterloo Region and have travelled to London on many occasions. When you enter the city from the 401 your first impression is wide roads, parking lots, plazas, etc. As you approach the core it does not improve. I'm sure there are some decent places to live but it is a typically southern Ontario suburban community the same as Mississauga, Brampton, Burlington, Milton, Guelph, etc. To get the nice parts of London from a suburb (where most people live) you must drive. When I have visited people who live there, the suburbs are a labyrinthian maze. I do not see how transit could be efficient. London recently cancelled the rail part of their Rapid Transit plan to go exclusively with buses. A quote from the BRT Handout, "BRT is a bus-based rapid transit system that mirrors many of the features of a rail system with the flexibility and cost savings associated with using over the road vehicles." No, that is a lie told by a politician who is never going to use transit pandering to car dependant constituents. Buses (RT or regular) always get stuck in transit. Waterloo Region has the ION and Hamilton now has the LRT. London is run by politicians stuck in the 20th century. Without rail transit, the traffic will just get worse. London is not a fun city to visit and I imagine it will stay that way.

[@ghostpipe888]

As someone who grew up in 'old' London and watched the downtown be killed by malls and urban sprawl and a lot of the most impressive character homes at the time being regarded as 'old fashion' and of little worth (in comparison to the cookie cutter treeless blocks on the outskirts that swallowed farmland and green space) which were then torn down to make parking lots. I still remember the old market down town that actually catered to farmers selling large amounts of produce and the ware house buildings full of artists (sorry nostalgia). Anyway, its growth is a city that was based around malls by culture-less hacks and now that mall culture has basically died/ gone off trend... it is a bit of a disconnected mess, full of cars that IMO represents the attitudes of the ppl who were originally drawn to suburban communities. Disconnection and a fear of anything different.

[@Quince828]

I guess you’re referring to the sprawl of Sifton City as he built out the burbs.

[@SpencerGatten]

I have a few clients now who are exicted about buying the old downtown homes keeping the character but upgrading them. its been nice to see.

[@theultimatereductionist7592]

Correction: fear of anything different would imply a desperate attempt to SAVE the past, NOT destroy it and replace it with something new. The latter is a fear of NOT being modern.

[@circleinforthecube5170]

character homes? a old bland foursquare from 1920 is not much better than a ranch, this may be shocking but tastes change, modern houses will also probably be more loved in 40 years

[@pezz2345]

In terms of obesity it struck me as someone who has lived in London their entire adult life when I first went to Toronto near the start of the Pandemic just how much skinnier Torontonians are - - Maybe it was just the areas that I was in, but it did lead me to think the same thing that less walkable cities really do exacerbate obesity wayyyyy more than we really think about lol

[@julietardos5044]

I suggested to CityNerd that he take his top 10 and bottom 10 walkable cities and compare obesity rates.

[@sm3675]

Obesity and poverty in Canada are closely linked. Areas such as Etobicoke, Misissauga, Oakville, Markham, Barrie, and London are all car centric, but the latter (Barrie and London) are fatter and less wealthy.

[@SpencerGatten]

thats really interesting, ill have to pay more attention but this isnt something I noticed even living in london all this time maybe I am blind to it!

[@kathrynstemler6331]

I ride my bike to my 10 hour/day standing job and I’m still fat 😂😂

[@brandonm1708]

I was expecting to find you slamming NJB here, but was pleasantly surprised by your well-reasoned response! Also I loved that “Not Not Just Bikes” intro

[@quixomega]

I have several friends who live in London, ON. I've been there many times, and genuinely badly served by public transit and very spread out. If that's the target of your KZbin channel, then yes it's terrible. Is it worse than other similar North American cities? No not really, and I don't think Jason Slaughter even makes that claim in his videos, he's mostly just using it as an example of all of the stupid choices that most North American cities make in transit design and it's because London is so typical that it makes a good comparison.

[@noseblind2088]

Living closer to downtown is better. Car depency is the bane of this city, and I would say you reap the most benefit living in downtown or the satellite neighborhoods while also owning a car. That is a niche set of requirements and also highlights the city's problems, but if you fit that description then London will be an enjoyable experience. The transit is far too unreliable at this stage, so there isn't any way to get downtown without relying on the shitty transit, walking if possible, or paying for parking. All 3 are deterrents if you live in the outer ring of the city and that is the biggest issue of the city's layout

[@agilemind6241]

Lack of density is the real problem in the city. I don't own a car while living in the city so I've ridden a fair bit of the transit and there are pretty decent routes right now, the problem is low frequency, and the low frequency is due to low ridership, which is in turn due to the ridiculously low density neighbourhoods everywhere in the city (even close to down town). The city needs to put in place a 100% ban on expansion of the city limits and focus entirely on densification, and replacing the insane amount of parking with more useful spaces.

[@SpencerGatten]

yes agreed, if you can live in a downtown satellite neighbourhood you have a lot more options, so many more restaurants and activities growing there.

[@circleinforthecube5170]

@@agilemind6241 yes but the problem with that is it theres a point where the entire cities architecture is completely changed, going from almost all single family homes to no single family homes in the city at all even for historic preservation (except the really old 1800s houses) honestly i dont want to see everything i know be torn down for a city that is unfamiliar

[@Andrea-lj4jg]

Looking at fake london on google maps is depressing, half of downtown is nothing but parking lots

[@supersmashmaster43]

Yep and it's even more depressing walking through it

[@dr.jamesmccarthyfromqserf7063]

yea, as someone who lives in London, that's why I have never and will never go downtown.

[@violetlight1548]

As a fellow former Lousy Londoner (my favourite of NJB's names for the town, due to the alliteration), you do bring up some good points, and I am happy the place *is* (by some miracle) improving. I grew up in London with a single Mom and we didn't have a car for years - I still remember taking the bus to get groceries and a cab back, and walking to school. This was years ago - in the late 80s/early 90s, where there was pretty much no bike infrastructure whatsoever as well. I also took the bus to get to high school and community college. It is *possible* to live in London without a car, but it's a pain in the ass. That said, I would never, ever move back. I'm living in Hamilton now, below the mountain, in a neighbourhood just blocks away from downtown. I can walk to work, to my son's school, to an actual, thriving Downtown with almost everything we need, and easy GO access to Toronto. We only use my husband's little beat up Honda Civic (I don't drive) for grocery getting and relative visiting. The bus service in Hamilton blows me away too -- every 10 minutes on some routes! I never expected to see transit that frequent outside Toronto! Hamilton's not perfect by any means --- housing is expensive, and homelessness is a problem the city *needs* to solve -- but it's where *I* feel at home, something I never felt in London.

[@stephenvandulken6948]

Back in 1955, when I was a few years old and my family was in Montreal, my father got a job offer to move to Fake London. Instead we moved to New York City (and I now live in a walkable town on the south coast of England). Jeez, we may have dodged a bullet...

[@johnfitzgerald7618]

One thing you always have to consider in Ontario is the political influence of property developers. The current premier, for example, has some splaining to do about how he reversed a campaign promise in a way that significantly promoted the interests of large developers. In the 60s London city council decided to surround core London with low density neighbourhoods organized around malls. That worked well for big developers and big construction companies (and local construction companies like EllisDon, which grew into a huge construction company), but it created the London you see today. I grew up in London, moved to Toronto for 50 years, then moved back a few years ago. I made frequent visits to London during those 50 years, though. The once-bustling downtown had been destroyed by 1980. Successive municipal governments since then have been promising to revitalize downtown, but it's even less alive today. I am not saying that the influence of developers is necessarily a sign of municipal corruption. It could, for example, simply be the result of smart developers bamboozling incompetent municipal governments (to call municipal government incompetent is almost always redundant in Ontario). Whatever the reason, the solution, if there ever is one, will be political. If people ignore municipal politics and don't organize for change nothing will happen. A few giant crowds at the legislature calling out Doug Ford might help, but I fear that most people in Ontario may actually like living in stroad suburbs. I live in core London, by the way. It's fine, although downtown and the old East End commercial district are moribund.

[@RealConstructor]

I never been to London ON, but I wonder what you can do in downtown London ON. What is the attraction of downtown, if most shops and restaurants are moving to the outskirts and become big box stores and fast food chains with lots of parking lots. Redeveloping downtown should be the main goal of local and regional governments I would say. Make sure everyone wants to go to downtown and make sure they go by foot, bicycle or public transport.

[@johnfitzgerald7618]

@@RealConstructor For sure, but it ain't happening. A large part of downtown is owned by a single developer, who claims that development is being held back because the city won't allow enough parking for companies that want to relocate there -- that is, the companies want parking spaces and the city refuses to allow them, so the company goes to the burbs.. Of course, if there were a decent transit system the need for parking might be less, but there isn't one, nor is there much chance of one appearing any time soon. The system is so bad that massive capital expenditure would be required. They've painted themselves into a corner. [Edited for clarity]

[@agilemind6241]

@@RealConstructor Restaurants are not moving to the outskirts, the suburbs are filled with terrible chain resaurants but if you want to go to a nice place you'll be going downtown. But sadly that's about the only thing there is downtown right now. There's not even a supermarket! Just redevelopment isn't the solution, they tried that with Dundas St. and while it is beautifully designed for walking, cycling, and window shopping, it is instead a desolate wasteland of awful convenience stores and homeless people. It needs to be a multi-prong approach of increasing density, improving transit, and redevelopment.

[@agilemind6241]

@@johnfitzgerald7618 That's clearly a lie, there is a giant multi-story parking lot downtown that is more than 1/2 empty all the time. There are surface parking lots everywhere that sit empty all the time, and there are dozens of bus routes that pass through downtown that are well used. It's an excuse b/c that "developer" doesn't want to develop anything, they just want to profit off of rent in the crumbling buildings they own.

[@johnfitzgerald7618]

​@@agilemind6241 Yes, he could well be lying. He's a developer, after all. I doubt that most of those empty spaces are in public lots, though. Companies would have the added costs of negotiating with private companies for reserved spaces. He does claim (yes, perhaps falsely) that when Citi Financial wanted to move into the old Central Library the city could only offer them spaces at Ridout and Horton. As for the buses, they're well used on the current schedules with buses 20 or (mainly) 30 minutes apart. To make the buses a real alternative to driving they would have to double or triple the number of buses. Like all good Torontonians I hated the TTC when I lived there, but when I moved back to London it suddenly seemed much more attractive. Which is horrifying.

[@beback_]

I sympathize with Jason's anger. He's not an optimistic 20 year old living in a world brimming with possibility. He's in his mid forties, and feels like he's been gaslit for DECADES and that the best years of his life have been stolen from him.

[@johnwt7333]

I thought he was in his mid fifties

[@beback_]

If so I NEED to know what his skin care routine is haha@@johnwt7333

[@rlwelch]

Jason travelled across the world for years and then used his fancy job to relocate to somewhere he likes - I'm not saying he's wrong, but he's not exactly a downtrodden, powerless victim of suburban dysfunction here

[@johnwt7333]

@@rlwelch he is. The first 3 decades of his life were taken away from suburban dysfunction

[@rlwelch]

I'm not an expert on his bio, but I'm pretty sure Jason has lived his whole adult life outside of the suburbs. 3 decades is a bit of a stretch, I'd be surprised if it was even a full 2

[@nagi1337]

American suburbs look so strange with those exposed front lawns. Where I'm from, people would have some kind of bush fence for privacy. I wonder why they don't do that in america.

[@danellis-jones1591]

I grew up in real London. I now live in Perth, Australia, which has even more single car use than fake London (80%+). And my teenage years were FAR more free than my teens. Because of the great PT. I could go basically anywhere. The point is, car dependent planning is cheap, dangerous and are know to affect both our physical and mental health. And there's absolutely no reason why we couldn't build cities in the same way as we did 200 years ago. The thing that annoys me most is these awful cities are made because builders and developers have pursued governments to allow it so they can make more money. Basically the urban environment in USA/Canada/Australia are due to privatisation

[@katrinabryce]

If I was the mayor of Fake London, here's what I would do with the stroads: Reconfigure them to be one bus lane, one car lane, and one cycle lane in each direction, with a linear park in the middle. Some, maybe every second one, would have a tram lane in place of the bus lane. Fronting them on each side would be a row of buildings with shops on the ground floor, and a mix of offices and apartments on the 2-3 floors above that. That would change the stroads from being the edge of the neighbourhoods to the centre of the neighbourhood.

[@CathyMartinTBW]

Good video. Good points. You both make excellent content, by the way. For what its worth I think both Vancouver and fake London could benefit from one of the easiest ways to improve the local lifestyle. A simple public relations effort to make travelling on public transit more acceptable. If viewed as a social failure, that's what it will become. Like you, I live in Vancouver and love to travel by scooter, however I am from real London, where you can sit on a bus and find yourself sitting next to an MP, a CEO or an OBE (look it up). There's zero social stigma. By putting great WiFi on all public transit, and pushing a well thought out PR campaign we could turn the public perception of transit around cheaply and to great effect. Regardless, we live in one of the best places on the planet.

[@johnnevada46]

I too am from the real London. A couple of years ago I visited Toronto to see a relative in hospital. When I visited the hospital, most of the family was gathered around the bed of my uncle. After a while, somebody asked how I had traveled to the hospital and I answered that I had caught a bus from the hotel. Jaws dropped and the surprise would not have been greater if I had said that I had arrived on a camel or by hot-air balloon.

[@PaintyMainy]

I first was afraid this was going to be one of those "debunking" videos. But it was actually quite insightful. Nice job.

[@commorevpenguin9602]

This was a very well made video especially for the channel size.

[@jjmaia]

I stopped in London ON once on the way to Detroit and found it gray, uninteresting and sprawling.

[@supersmashmaster43]

I was born and raised in London and agree with you, but I'll still take this place any day over Detroit

[@oldmanlearningguitar446]

As a life long London resident I’d say Jason has it right. The bike lanes are often disconnected. The buses are better than 20 years ago since they no longer travel in bunches but post pandemic they are worst than pre-pandemic due to frequency cuts. Retail has moved farther and farther away from the city center and much of it is unavailable to bus riders or on 30 to 40 minute intervals. Oh, and they killed 1/2 of the proposed rapid transit and the one leg currently nearing completion is so short at 5.5 km it’s almost pointless. It really only connects the main college campus to their downtown building. Non-students not riding its full length might save 3 to 5 minutes but there’s no reason for most Londoners to go downtown anymore.

[@janeycole3327]

Thanks Nic, for a generous, balanced response to Jason's articles. It's good to see that there's more to Fake London than he presents, while you acknowledge most of Jason's concerns. I live in Australia which is badly polluted by stroads but, as you generously point out, things are changing, progress is happening. Good 'ealth, John Warner. Australia

[@jamesfeeney7068]

I have lived here my whole life, and have commuted by bike, but with the increase in population, drivers have become more aggressive, making cycling increasingly dangerous. Local authorities also do not enforce laws against drivers either. I agree with Jason, this city is a waste land

[@LoicMat]

Thanks for the video, and congrats on the thumbnail, you had me fooled! But sorry, @9:27 someone having to go around a construction sign on the bke path, inches away from an 18-wheeler, is not my idea of "great separated bicyle paths"

[@markuserikssen]

It's nice to see a more nuanced video by another local. This puts things a bit more into perspective and it shows that it's perhaps not as bad as one might think. Also great to see that the city is making progress. It seems like slow progress and there's still a long way to go.

[@SpencerGatten]

Yes the City is very slow to respond and make any changes, but we got a government housing agreement in place which has put pressure on them for faster infrastructure change

[@BlueGrovyle]

This is an extremely well-edited and tasteful video. Couldn't help but laugh at the inclusion of the "dramatic reenactment" as well. Nice voice, by the way.

[@nicthedoor]

Thank you very much!

[@theultimatereductionist7592]

Not Just Bikes is 100% correct in his criticism. But, statements about the FUTURE? I am still an aggressive optimist. There is NOTHING absolute NOTHING deterministic about politics, other than the consequences. The car industry existing means nothing. Politicians CAN ignore their demands.

[@floriangoetz5117]

I just spent a few years living in London, and I do see the potential of London. If you live close to the Thames Valley Parkway (TVP), and your destination is close to the TVP, you have a great opportunity to commute to by bike. The issue is the rest of the network isn’t fully connected. Biking north-south is difficult because biking on Adelaide, Richmond or Wonderland is a nightmare, and the same goes for commuting west-east with Oxford, Fanshawe or Commissioners. The roads either need better bike infrastructure or there needs to be other alternative corridors for bikes.

[@rhizocarp]

Nice video and very fair, I think. While London has too much suburban sprawl, it really does have good bones in the older part of the city: the downtown train station and hockey arena, the lack of an urban freeway, and the Thames Valley Parkway. It is getting better, but it's just a shame that the pace of change is so slow. And some of the positive change underway (e.g. BRT) is already being watered down with curb lanes in some sections.

[@SpencerGatten]

yes the speed in which london changes feels like a snails pace. it takes forever for the city to make a good decision and even longer to act on it

[@ManunKanava]

A good quality video! Nice to see otherone's opinion. Hope that NJB sees this.

[@chrisdabeard8790]

I visited friends in Fake London about 15 years ago. We were staying in one of the older nieghbourhoods, about a 15 minutes walk from the downtown shopping areas. We didn't have a car, but we still managed to get about. Being from England, we didn't find it strange to walk to wherever we needed to get, but we did get some funny looks when people asked how we got about without a car. On some days, our friends would drive us out to some of the restuarants or shopping areas which we didn't visit on our own without a car, mainly because we didn't want to be carrying potentially heavy bags all the way back. Public transit was not the best, but since we didn't have a schedule to keep (holiday) it wasn't really an issue. I could definatley see it being a problem for commuters each day. It's good to see that London is trying to improve and build less car-centric infrastructure. It'll be interesting to visit my friends again next year, to see what has changed.

[@andymod]

Based on scenery you shown in this video, it has a lot of greenery and doesn't look that awful. P. S. What I am really surprized is video and audio (!) quality of the video itself for a channel with such a tiny subscriptions and views numbers. Do more, it's great!

[@karlkoehler341]

Greenery is nice and all but.. reminds me of many other North American places. Remnants of a downtown, where buildings were knocked down to make space for parking, downtown streets expanded to six lanes, and plenty of suburban sprawl. Heck, even South Lake Tahoe is like that, a place surrounded by the beauty of nature like no other and then they destroy the feeling by putting in this suburbia. There is so much space to do better ! Separate pedestrian-facing store-fronts from parking-lot car-street facing store-backs. Connect the pieces of sidewalk and bikelane. Does Costco really need a road for cars on 3.5 sides or could one side not be for bikes/pedestrians only? As is, not even the people who live in the apartment complex across the street will bike or walk there.

[@nntflow7058]

There are lots of compact cities covered with greenery. But homeless people in downtown areas is not such a nice thing. Like in Fake London....

[@JeremyLevi]

Canadian cities tend to have plenty of very nice green spaces because the one thing we have lots of is land and because Canadians more or less expect to be able to access nature at the drop of a hat. Travelling between one of those nice green spaces and the next in anything but a car is where you start bumping into the sharp edges of modern Canadian urban planning though.

[@andymod]

@JeremyLevi Canadian urban planning can blow up your mind in a bad way (I didn't see US one, tho). But there are plenty of really coll places too, especially in big cities like Toronto or Montreal. But after Europe, it still feels outdated.

[@michieldame701]

Totally Agreed on both counts, It looks great and Do more!... Even in the replies the discussion is happening...

[@NGC1433]

What's up with all the parking lots? Haven't you north-americans not unlocked digging yet? Here in eastern europe we have shopping malls adjacent to 800 year old city centres. (Well, that's an unintended dig in itself...) and there is exactly zero parking lots around them. Because parking lots are BELOW them. Even shopping malls on the outskirts have underground parking, sometimes combined with surface parking lots just because they could.

[@SofiaFreja]

i HAVE been to London. I grew up in Michigan, and have been to London more times than I can remember. My first time in London was in the 1970s. The last time i was there was a few years ago. 10 years ago, my mother in law, while riding a bicycle in London, was the victim of a hit and run driver. Despite witnesses and reporting his license plate #, the police did NOTHING. Unfortunately Ontario, from Windsor and Sarnina to Niagra and maybe Kingston, has become one massive megaopolis. Yeah, there is still some farmland between each of the countless other "Londons" scattered about. But all of the hundreds of km of sprawl feels just like the hundreds of miles of badly planned sprawl in the USA. And it's a mess! Lest you think I'm just hating on Ontario because i'm from Michigan... and we hate the Leafs and think you can't pronounce the "aʊ" sound properly, I think Michigan overall is maybe WORSE than Ontario when it comes to sprawl and terrible suburbs. Also, I left Michigan in part because of how absolutely terrible it all was.

[@PRITZ060191]

Thank you so much for this. I'm heading to London soon from India for my MBA at Ivey. Hope to have a great time!

[@Gigaamped]

Honestly, I was hesitant at first but I see what you did there ;) this is a great video that will hopefully blow up and highlights major things our cities should strive to do better on. I especially appreciate you including statistical data like how biking is statistically safer on streets without painted bike gutters than with them. cheers!

[@iron_b0olt]

73% of all trips were done by car? Thats bad. I live in Brno, Czech republic, which is similar in size to Fake London. Even though I have a car and the country is still pretty car infested, I can manage 95% of my trips without a car, even travelling abroad (well countries are smaller here). Those trips I chose to use a car were mostly for fun I get from driving (I love driving) and some for convinience. If I didnt get a car from my grandparents, I wouldnt even thought of having one (because no money as a student), so I cant even imagine how I would manage to survive in Fake London

[@dutchman7623]

Even your images show me that NJB was right on many things. I do not see anyone in wheelchairs or mobility scooters freely and safely moving around. Hardly any pedestrian anywhere. Narrow sidewalks next to 4, 6, lanes for cars, where people with a stroller cannot pass each other or cross the street easily. It all confirms NJB views. Yes, you can survive in such a place, but is it a joy to live there?

[@bloodycrepe]

First two minutes of the video was enough for me. Summary as told by OP: "London is great but I moved out and not planning on returning". That tells me everything I need to know.

[@nicthedoor]

Did I say "great" ?

[@starbase218]

@@nicthedoor Maybe not, but what I will say is that you first summed up Jason's criticisms, and then effortlessly connected that with him saying "fake/phoney/etc London". The "fakeness" of it, I think, has to do with the fact that there is a huge city called London which existed far longer than the one you grew up in, and that the one you grew up in is probably named after that one.

[@ricardoojm]

hi. nice video. where is the pathway at 9:42?

[@nicthedoor]

That is along the Thames in Springbank park. West of Ronderland road I believe.

[@Arachn4]

As a former London resident I really enjoyed your video. Thanks!

[@jarodh-m6099]

As fellow resident of English-speaking North America with a passing familiarity with the Toronto area, I think the point of comparison is worth considering. London, ON seems like a pretty average metro in English-speaking North America. If you compare it to a place like Houston (or most the Gulf Coast), it is doing pretty well. When you are comparing it to the progress that has been made in comparable European metro areas, you shrug. As someone who regular watches Jason's videos, I have never under the impression that the whole city was the same level of car-centric. However, as someone who has living in various places in the U.S. and felt limited by not owning a car, I felt exactly what he was trying to get at.

[@GenericUrbanism]

This video goes into much more depth than the typical NJB video

[@BlueAlgon]

Nicely said. I grew up in Prague and one thing that struck me when I came to Canada (and it still gets me laughing) is the distances in Canadian cities vs Czech cities. Canadian cities are much more sprawled (for example, Winnipeg with 750k inhabitants covers the same area as Prague with over 1.2 million inhabitants). I live in SW Toronto (Etobicoke) and to get to the closest grocery store is a 2 km walk (this walk takes me passed a school and some industrial zone and lots of family houses). If I go for a 2 km walk in Prague, I get from my Prague apartment (downtown) passed many shops (including groceries) to the main train station.

[@bbrolls]

I definetly agree what NJB has to say with the car dependecy in London but from hearing your take on it is better than other car dependent cities in north america. I would like the point out downtown London has so much potential to be such a great place since it very walkable and very urban place to walk through while having a few parks in the center near rivers but its flooded with crack heads and cars and parking lots. I defenitly agree London has potential to be a great city but I hope they take little steps improving bike lanes or create an lrt which is very needed for students and commuters in London

[@Shonade_Malik]

I'm a teenager who has been living in fake London for most of my life. Since I'm a teenager, I haven't really gotten to deal with a lot of the problems here. Overall, it's a pretty decent city in my opinion but could definitely be improved. I can agree with you on the bike lanes, too. Whenever I'm riding on my bicycle, I prefer going on the sidewalk instead of the lane on the road -- it looks too dangerous. I'm glad to see some clips of areas that are near my home!

[@gadgetgirl02]

I lived in London for 12 years, and as far as I'm concerned the earth can swallow it up any time now (the people can leave before the earth swallowing part). And the poor urban planning is only one of those reasons.

[@stephenlee5929]

I don't think fake London is bad by Northern American standards, but that does say much that's positive.

[@tim.a.k.mertens]

I've lived in London my whole life (aside from university), it will always be my hometown. Having worked for the city for two summers I've flip flopped between being very optimistic for London's future and feeling hopeless and helpless to change it. The city recently added bike lanes with no barriers to a segment of Colborne street where one side of the street had served as street parking for as long as I can remember. A few years ago they also added bus route 1 which turns left onto Colborne from cheapside, where almost every time it makes the turn, cars in the turn lane have had to back up to let the bus in. Now there is no centre turn lane and the bike lanes are right in the path of the bus. It's a recipe for disaster The trees on the Boulevards were only planted in the past 15 years or so, which means if they had thought ahead a little, they could have just put the bike lanes on the boulevards. I really wanna hope for the city but I'm not convinced those who are responsible for those decisions are competent enough to do it right. When the neighborhood raised objections to this particular bike lane plan on Colborne, they were outright ignored. Still I have a bit of hope, thank you for helping me see it again

[@marknieuweboer8099]

Actually your video confirms Jason's main point: improve step by step. Everyone likes Amsterdam as an example. Now I studied there for 7 years in the 1980s. So I can testify that the city came from far as it was much more uncomfortable and dangerous for cyclists. Amsterdam started a long term policy in the early 1970s. The key is pretty simple. Start with the old inner city and slowly, gradually expand to the suburbs. To me it seems that this is what London, Ont. is doing.

[@tidbit1877]

At 6:22 in the video you say they made this intersection "better". I live a block from that intersection and it is now the most dangerous intersection in London Ontario for bikes, pedestrians, and is very difficult for drivers. I've seen at least two cars try to turn through the bike lane because it intrudes too much onto the road and they thought it was a turning lane, also they squished down the road making it absolutely treacherous for north/south traffic. I support bike lanes and all, but if this is what cyclists and "new wave urban freaks" (my own term for people who seem to suffer automobile-phobia and who hate cars because they can't afford them); anyway, if this is what you want then forget about it, its horrendously bad design, and very expensive to maintain, and it will inevitably damage peoples cars(one person already got stuck on the ridiculous curbs that stick out into traffic and make turning right onto Commissioners Rd. East an absolute nightmare). It's also super dangerous for bike riders who often assume they can zip through the light if its green without looking, forgetting about right and lefthand turning vehicles. Someone will die here, that is a fact. All the curbs need to be removed, and the whole road widened by at least two feet to accommodate safe bike paths. Sorry to go on and on, but like I said, someone will die here at this poorly designed intersection. PS - Two other things, first is the three bumps in the road; I can only assume these are also some new age nonsense for pedestrians; I call them reverse potholes and they need to be removed, there is absolutely no point to them. Second, for some reason the city seems to be putting round-abouts all around the city; these are just silly, take up more land than a four-way stop, and no one knows how to use them so they let through a lot less traffic, causing a traffic jam every time there is the least bit of traffic. I would love to know why the city is putting them on almost every country road that heads out of town? Like why? What is the point? I know this has nothing to do with bikes, I was just wondering. And third, (I added one, deal with it) I don't know what you mean by a "stroad" but it just sounds pretentious; and I wish that London had super blocks surrounded by medium road infrastructure, but they don't, most of these "stroads" as you call them are two lane, barely fit a vehicle through, essentially a side road type of thing; and what they definitely do not do is allow traffic to move freely, in fact London has very few major roads north/south or east/west; which is why we are having more and more traffic problems as the city grows. That's what happens when you don't let the city councillors work full time for the city and insist on each of them only working part time hours so they have to have a second job(but we allow them to hire three full time assistants). Also, that's what happens when the city with a one billion dollar budget ($1,000,000,000) doesn't bother to fill the "urban planner" position for over thirty years! Anyway, I'll end on a high note and just say that I hope the city makes better bike paths and integrates them into the design of all new roads so that in 25 years or so, once all the roads have been replaced, the city will have much better bike lanes. Something better than those awful death trap ones where they are right beside the cars!

[@Stephenmcabrera]

Good take, I think there are a lot of cities like this in North America--they still aren't there but they have a lot of potential. It reminds me of my hometown of Cleveland, which has a long way to go but still has its walkable pockets and bits of bike infrastructure

[@maxgronros6728]

This is so constructive and refreshing and not toxic Absolutely love not just bikes but you my friend has convinced me that london canada might not be the worst place on earth plus my guy sounds exactly like not just bikes

[@MJUltra42]

I am a fake Londoner as well and when I first moved here I used to ride my bike all the time. After being hit by a car on 4 different occasions within a year and having my bike stolen twice I decided I won't do it anymore. Furthermore, I lived downtown and worked by Fanshawe college and because of the shitty public transit infrastructure I would walk to work an hour and 15 minutes a day to and from work. I now have a car and my daughters school is a 15 minute walk from my house but it's terrible, unsafe and loud so we just drive most of the time. So recently I tried to take up biking again and Jesus Christ that's a full and absolute no for me. Also I used to live in the apartment building you showed with the super parking lot and we used to drive across the street to see a movie cause it was safer and more convenient

[@Hellohello776-b9i]

Thought this would be a video unequivocally defending (Fake) London, but this was a really balanced with fair pushbacks to Jason. Great video!

[@lilybertine5673]

Aw, that was a nice reply video. I liked the honesty. It sure doesn't look as bad as I pictured it, but still as a European, I prefer walkable and denser cities. That park looked pretty neat tho. There's definitely steps in the right direction.

[@fisyr]

I came to fake London from Europe about 8 years ago and I also observed some improvements. For those who know a bit the city, I think one way to really help the downtown, would be to completely block off to cars the the portion of Dundas street between Talbot and Richmond or even better between Talbot and Clarence. They always do it during any kind of major events, but making that whole block walkable permanently would in my opinion increase the appeal of the downtown a lot. Another major change that would be nice, but I can't imagine seeing in any foreseeable future would be a tram connecting north and south: for example going between Masonville and White Oaks malls, but that would be a massive project I can't imagine anyone committing to. I imagine it's always easier to build on an existing tram infrastructure rather than starting from scratch.

[@Ben-jq5oo]

Cycling on these roads is arguably less dangerous than cycling on country lanes in the UK.

[@endme6168]

3:06 That, is the Achilles heel of this whole video. While all the little improvements are nice, it's one step forward, two steps backward if they keep building these hellscapes.

[@iiSeeJay]

At 9:10 where were those 2 clips recorded?

[@Deckzwabber]

Somewhat off-topic question? Are those cul-de-sacs not interconnected with small paths for bicycles and pedestrians?

[@bennicbennicbennic]

Hey from St. Thomas. Fake London isn’t great, but they are making moves that I am impressed by. Another good thing I’ll add, our cities are talking about interurban transit. With St. Thomas landing Amazon and VW, I hope it goes through soon. (Oh and London is also testing pedestrian priority signals, so that’s good).

[@SpencerGatten]

would be huuuuuuuuge if they set something up like that between london and St thomas. I have friends who live in st thomas but no easy way of travelling between both. St thomas getting all the huge businesses it would be great if we could connect the two

[@gilbster]

Great Video! It's cool to see the progress that London is making. I visited once briefly a few years ago and really just stayed in the old downtown area. I have a similar feeling about Kansas City Missouri. We have such a sprawled out city, and much of the City area is car centric, stroads +suburbs. But over my almost 15 years of living here I have seen a lot of progress in increasing cycling infrastructure and transit options. We still have a ways to go, but we are moving in the right direction.

[@SnapshotOfASoul]

If you like the cycling around Vancouver, check it out around Tofino and Ucluelet, it's absolutely breathtaking and they have not just grade separated but completely separated lanes in many places, including (at least when I was there) a use separated boarding lane for people who want to use it for riding things other than bikes. As someone from a city that's around Vancouver, that has really good infrastructure for biking and walking, it always astounds me that we're also one of the most car centric areas of the region - lots of auto shops, big stroads, urban freeways, 1950s style huge intersections - but it's really always been so friendly to activity that it's deceptive. You don't see it from the road half the time, but there's pathways in my area too that span the entire city and can make an hour's walk into fifteen minutes if you know how to navigate. I'd walk home from school this way all the time, and people would be horrified when I told them, as if it was unsafe. It wasn't, it was lovely. Now I live on the outskirts on a two lane road constantly clogged with traffic, zero sidewalks... and yet I have multiple bus stops outside of my house so it's rated as "good for non car owners." Buses... that get stuck in traffic and often never show up. Sigh.

[@mspicer3262]

I'm also a native Londoner. I've lived here since I was six, that was in 1974. I did leave for a few years in the Forces, and again for a year in Alberta. London has always been like every other North American city, that is, totally car-centric. Mass-transit has always been lacking. To get around the city, into growing industrial areas, or to cross the city, bus-service is generally poor. In the industrial areas, service is often limited to a few hours in the morning and a few in the afternoon. There is also issues with busses constantly being either very early, or quite late, you just can't depend on them for when you need them. Now, I have no car, and I gave up my license about sixteen years ago. I didn't need it, and saw no reason to give the government a bunch of money to keep it. At the time, I lived a kilometer away from work. I use a 2-wheel electric scooter I recently purchased to replace the LTC without the expense of a car. The city needs more bike-infrastructure, and needs to mix commercial and residential better. I've been all over Europe, and in every place I stayed over there, I had a full market within a comfortable five to ten minute walk of the apartment I'd rented. Personally, I hate this city. I've worked as a professional driver here, and will say that drivers in London largely should not have a license. I've yet, in recent times, to encounter drivers who actually know how a four-way stop works. Nobody knows what to do, and the most impatient just jumps, and then the intersection slows down. A lot cars barely slow down for stop-signs. It's why I stop when on my scooter. Zipper-merging is a lost-art in the city too. Most drivers also don't seem to know their way around the city, and rely on a GPS. I was did work as a dispatcher for ten years here, and told drivers all the time, not to use GPS, get a paper map and study it. Drive through areas you don't often go, to see things on the ground. **Learn alternate routes** because the city is terrible at planning road-closures. As a pedestrian, I won't cross in front of a car unless I make EYE-CONTACT with the driver. That's how little faith I have in them, especially at drive-thru places, where they're more interested in what they have in the bag than in what's directly in front of their (often moving) car. Overall, I'd give London 2 out of 5 stars. That's as a resident of the city for some 45 years. I will leave one day, and when I do, I won't come back. The city has had "potential" for decades. I've seen beautiful, natural spaces gutted, and replaced with cookie-cutter "McMansion" subdivisions, changing landscapes in business and industry, and the LTC constantly floundering around.

[@Drachnon]

9:27 why does it look like someone placed a sign in the middle of the cycling path?

[@robertwelch7531]

This is a great counter point, thanks for the context from a local expert! Jason's not wrong overall but taking a closer look can be really worth it to find some bright spots too

[@johnwright7105]

I grew up in London and went back about 4 years ago for the first time in almost 15 years and it was significantly nicer in terms of the amount of bike lanes/ pathways. And much nicer in those terms than any city I've lived in in America since.

[@rlwelch]

Great to hear! It's way more important to learn where things are heading, and look for ways to improve them, than to dogpile and make doomer generalizations on how bad things currently are

[@aliancemd]

I pressed automatically, thinking it’s NJB, based on thumbnail style, thinking “weird, missed this one”. I was open to see Jason being challenged, did not expect to basically confirm the same things with more data, well presented nonetheless(great job on that one). 11:49 I tried imagining myself at the end there, walking there and it literally gave me anxiety

[@st.altair4936]

Alot of fair points, but NJB's video still seems very much warranted to me. 73.5% car trips alone is abysmal and completely unacceptable even if it's slowly improving... only unless you compare it to the average North American city, which should never serve as a baseline but as an example of what to avoid. And at that, I think his video succeeds.

[@SpencerGatten]

Since I have been living in London I have noticed big changes for bike traffic, but we are getting more intensification like the plans for all the building around 100 Kellogg. More density will be more walkable areas and hopefully more biking options, the issue is its still a city in canada that gets a ton of snow so biking months will always be limited.

[@ramrancherog9195]

I live in London and I commute only by bicycle. I am lucky enough to be close to 2 entry points on the the Thames Valley Parkway. I do think London has immense potential and after reading some of the recent construction and bike lane projects my theory is the city is wanting to build a network of bike lanes to connect people on to the parkway and use that to get people safely to where they want to be. It could be better, since often times the TVP is less direct, but it is taking advantage of something unique about London and I am all for it

[@SpencerGatten]

I love the TVP but what do you do in the winter when it comes to commuting?

[@GordonFlash1983]

I'm from London UK and it's a car unfriendly city. Apart from the congestion and low emission charges, it's almost impossible not to get some sort of fine. Accidently being in a bus lane for literally less than one second, £60 fine. Did an immediate U turn after accidently driving up a street not for cars, £60 fine etc etc.

[@BeHappyByBike]

I feel the same way about Winnipeg. I think in the end, these less developed cities will catch up to European standards much quicker than big cities because they haven't already been oversaturated with car dependent infrastructure and the introduction of cycling and walkable infrastructure can more easily be introduced. I do have a car but I get to choose to bike for 85% of trips including to work. Wish me luck for the winter but I'll really try to stick to it.

[@phoenixrambles]

On Bluesky a little while back NotJustBikes went on a huge rant about how his channel is not intended to promote improvement of North America or anything along those lines; his entire goal of the channel is to convince people that North America is hopeless and that the only solution is to give up and move to Europe. He openly insulted people trying to improve the US and said he doesn't want anyone interested in staying in North America/wanting to make North American cities better to watch his channel. He refuses to consider that some people might not be able to afford to just upend their lives and move across the world, and he also refuses to consider that there are multiple factors affecting the choice of where to live including the location of family, job opportunities, outdoor recreation opportunities, and many others. He's fully committed to the idea that you can't be a "real" urbanist if you are not willing/able to drop your life in North America and move to the Netherlands (which is an *extremely* priveleged and entitled view; emmigrating to Europe (or changing citizenship in general) is very expensive and requires having enough money to cover thousands of dollars in travel expenses in addition to covering not being able to work for several months upon arriving in Europe). He acts like it is absurd to consider any factor except for bikeability and transit when deciding where to live. In order to generate patreon support he heavily implies he's working to improve North American cities, while on Bluesky revealing that his channel's purpose is to get people to give up and abandon trying to make anything better. He also talks about "North American cities" as being monolithically terrible, completely ignoring the many Mexican cities with excellent urbanism and public transit. He says the purpose of his channel is to convince people that North American cities are doomed and are never going to improve while ignoring the American and Canadian cities that have made significant leaps forward and have major transit plans for the next few years. More recently he defended hostile, anti-homeless architecture in Amsterdam as just being "decorative rocks" but also as "important for public safety" - you can't have it both ways, and it reveals his real attitudes towards poor people (although the rest of how he talks about stuff made that pretty obvious already). After the backlash he faced on Bluesky he nuked his whole bluesky account and basically pretended he never was on the site. In short, he's a real piece of shit who actively is harming urbanists' attempts to improve American and Canadian by working to convince people it's all a lost cause. Go watch the many, many good urbanism channels that actually care about making the world a better place.

[@thefactspherefromportal2740]

This was nice to watch. I went in thinking this was going to be a rant against NJB, but it's nice to see you both agree and disagree with his points and highlight how it could be better.

[@janeroberts1546]

I lived in London for 10 years. For 8 of those years I lived in the walkable Wortley Village (a very conscious life style decision at the time). I too thought London had potential, up until the moment I left in 1996. So yeah, it's good to hear it still has potential, but to have capitalized on so little of it in the last 28 years is such a shame.

[@nedhappily]

We moved to Toronto from Vancouver last year and visited London last weekend. Yes, there are many homeless people in downtown but mostly are harmless unlike drug addicts in downtown Vancouver. We love the trails in London and people are nice, it's only 2 hours away from Toronto by VIA Rail

[@vanschaaykb]

I bike to work most days when its either not pouring rain or coated in snow. The intersection you showed at Ridout and Commissioners, while one of the nicer looking bits of bike infrastructure is actually one of the most dangerous intersections on my route. You have highspeed traffic on Commissioners occasionally failing to stop for red light, but probably the most dangerous is turning traffic on Ridout/Upper Queens; southbound turning left from Upper Queens and northbound from Ridout turning right onto Commissioners. The way the bike lane shifts from being a painted lane to a median separated path seems to confuse drivers and they don't end up seeing you. I've had a number of close calls at that intersection. There are separate signals for bikes at the intersection but they timed the same as the car traffic making them completely useless, if there were different signal priorities / intervals it would be a totally different story. The other intersection on my route is equally as dangerous for a different reason is the threeway intersection of Egerton, Trafalgar and Hamilton. The northbound bike lane on Egerton goes from a painted bike lane, to a sharrow at the intersection back to a painted bike lane IN the intersection. Its really dicey here with cars making a right turn on Trafalgar because you start out behind them switching to beside them in the intersection and then you get to play the game of "did they see me and who's gonna go for it". Thankfully most of my route is along the Thames Valley Parkway away from traffic which is great.

[@theultimatereductionist7592]

I would LOVE for ANY of these urbanist channels to tackle directly headon the issue of SUNK COST in North America. Ok - we already built all these sprawling suburbs. So, now what do we do? Show us how to build trains to all these suburbs. Find the Steiner points that minimize distances/

[@nicthedoor]

I am very interested in this topic. Dr. Tristan Cleveland did his thesis on this and I would like to not only dig deeper, but see it in practice. www.strongtowns.org/journal/2023/8/7/in-conversation-with-an-expert-tristan-cleveland-of-happy-cities

[@nicthedoor]

Here's a link to his thesis dalspace.library.dal.ca/handle/10222/82562

[@theultimatereductionist7592]

Thank you for your links!@@nicthedoor

[@theultimatereductionist7592]

In the abstract to Dr Cleveland's thesis: "I propose that to initiate a retrofit, proponents can utilize contradictions that exist within car-dependence, including backlash amongst car-dependent voters against the consequences of car-dependence." In other words, use carbrains' HYPOCRISIES (a hypocrisy is a contradiction) against them. They whine about spending too much money? Great: give up one's car. They whine about spending too much on taxes? Great: stop subsidizing huge parking lots. @@nicthedoor

[@ryanjonsson]

as someone who's grown up in london and now lives in ottawa i can tell you london is just a slighlty smaller ottawa without the train system. all london needs is a train system and a lot of these issues will disapear

[@Joker-eg6oz]

I didn't feel that free thing until I got my own car @ 17. Even being a cyclist & walking alot still pretty confined to my superblock. Even with full empathy for biking it's horrifying to drive by a cyclist in a bike gutter.

[@renskedunnewold1995]

Well I for one think it's nice that you want to defend your (adopted) hometown. Jason has criticized my hometown too, though not quite as harshly or often (I'm from Rotterdam). But I don't think he truly believes London to be the worst out there, he just uses it as a stand-in for all car-centered places in North America. And when I look at the footage you used, that is indeed what I see, even if _some_ effort is put in to make improvements. I still think London has a long way to go to start being a pleasant urban space, but I'll be cheering you on from across the Atlantic!

[@thomaskalbfus2005]

Since its Canada, I'm assuming it snows a lot, so would you rather walk in this snow or drive?

[@nicthedoor]

Personally I'd rather bike.

[@thomaskalbfus2005]

@@nicthedoor In the snow? Do you like biking in snow, and in how deep snow do you bike? How do you like biking in ice? In some places it is hard just to stand on ice, and you want to bike on it?

[@nicthedoor]

@@thomaskalbfus2005 Studded tires do wonders in the ice. If you're interested, check out this video. kzbin.info/www/bejne/i5nbXmVsfMt2eLc

[@nioerk1865]

Honestly the fact you had the courage to make this video as a person with 2k Subs compared to NJB with over a million speaks a lot. Well done with the video as well, great quality.

[@adee4151]

to sum it up, you basically agreed to every of Jason's points with the exception that a) it's not the worst, just average for North America (so sad), b) there are some people like you, who are/were brave enough to not be deterred by the hostile walk/bike environment, and c) you see a positive trend.