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@GhostOnTheHalfShell3 ай бұрын
You might find reading Dave Graeber’s work, Debt: the first 5000 years, note worthy on the evolution of (concepts of) debt.
@HathaBhaktiKundiliniYogaBahkti3 ай бұрын
Truth Devil Insane. This is still a secret still Omnea enua each of us say it and read it differently. We need to. cOllectivle vote in IDEA Personal Liberte. Government banned from (weapons allowed for every (citizen) vote in one Guy then vote in median persons problem. To Grow (onle end of suffering )free will) In truth Devil onle pay .08cents on dollar of price on Goods to Love and excorzize the Devils to the eternal flames. Juice(allow every product) Barthelemelew Warior Insane.
@HathaBhaktiKundiliniYogaBahkti3 ай бұрын
HolyA BibleA.
@HathaBhaktiKundiliniYogaBahkti3 ай бұрын
Holya Biblea
@ShaneSemler3 ай бұрын
I don't know if forgiveness accomplishes anything karmically, but carrying around a grudge or guilt isn't good for anyone involved.
@DanielYapHZ3 ай бұрын
@@ShaneSemler mm makes sense! I was reading ur comment, and my brainrot mind translated it to “I don’t know if taking a shit accomplishes anything karmically, but carrying around a shit is not good for anyone involved” 💚🤷🏻♂️ have a great day
@Kowzorz3 ай бұрын
Like throwing hot coals at someone (grudge) vs deciding to not pick up a hot coal to throw (forgiveness). Is burning your hand to affect change a skillful action?
@MrCmon1133 ай бұрын
There's nothing to carry around. Either someone is hostile towards you or they aren't. In neither case does "forgiveness" make any sense.
@oioio-yb9dw3 ай бұрын
Forgiveness, there are many types. There is the one where you pretend nothing happened and get hurt again, or not, at some point; There is another forgiveness where no grudge is held, the bad feelings cease, and the hate or whatever clouds the mind is let go of, but unlike the other one, the chances to get hurt are reduced, contact with the source that hurt you is stopped and you move on. Not giving a chance to be hurt by the same person again. No hate, no anger, just caution.
@zakosist2 ай бұрын
@@oioio-yb9dw Good point. But making sure bad actions are actually punished create detterant for hurting someone else in the future. And maybe not just by that person, but in general. I think actions should have consequenses, and it has to be consequenses you can see independently of what religion you belong to. I think many times forgiveness is needed, but its not neccesarily wrong to want to actually get back at someone in some cases. Especially to people who have no true remorse, but still deeply hurt someone else. It still has to be balanced between mercy and justice, revenge can go too far (particularly when its worse than the original wrongdoing, or hurt someone else that wasnt guilty). Punisment is part of protecting others, not just yourself, but also so victims can get relief. Thats just my personal view of it, not belonging to any religion.
@eurobulk54073 ай бұрын
There are so many things that have their wholesomeness or unwholesomeness depending on a seemingly small difference in the motivation. It seems equally important to reflect on one's intentions as on one's actions. Thank you for discussing this topic!
@freetibet10002 ай бұрын
So true my friend! Motivation proceeds action (deed) and thus needs to be examined very closely. Deeds (mostly) reflects our underlying motivation but cannot be entirely equated with motivation since we sometimes (rarely?) may act rashly out of a sense of deep love and compassion towards those that have yet to understand a given situation in its fullest. If our motivation is informed by wisdom we may not act the way (local) social and cultural conventions dictates. In such situations we may be scolded for inappropriate or inadequate responses (by the community) even though we know that our responses are correct in relation to underlying understandings that goes beyond social or cultural understandings. In such situations we may end up in a conflict with society even though our intentions are pure. The Buddhist history is full of such tales and it reflects the non-perfection of this world and its cultural frameworks. Normally, practitioners are usually advised to not engage in social controversy and flaunt their elevated understandings to those not yet ready for it, but to remain disengaged whenever such tricky situations arise in relation to society at large. Again, let your underlying motivation and understanding guide you wisely even (especially) at times more complex or fraught with controversies. I truly believe the intention of the Buddha was not to set down a set of general rules for us to follow but rather to provide us with effective methods of practice to give rise to our own inherent wisdom. Reality is (at any given moment) so complex in its expressions that a general set of rules or guidelines can rarely provide us with appropriate guidelines for how to act or respond beneficially. Conversely, giving rise to penetrating awareness and wisdom will indeed give us a much greater chance for meeting reality with as much understanding and appropriate response than what a (blind) set of rules can ever provide for us. In some cases that may look like “forgiveness” but in reality we are just acting in accord with our level of wisdom and the way we understand a situation and what needs to be done in that particular moment. If our responses are not motivated by self interests, cultural and social biases or religious dogma we have a much greater opportunity to respond through our own inherent wisdom and thus be in harmony with the complexity of any given moment. I truly believe that was the true intentions of the Buddha. Why? I believe he saw the true potential in all of us but how we fail to listen to our own wisdom and thus subsequently fail in our relation to reality as a whole. The result is suffering.
@freetibet10002 ай бұрын
@@Inkblot21 From an ultimate point of view yes, but we have no choice but to work with what we got in order to transcend it, eventually. Everything we do in our daily practice is intentional, there’s no way around that. Purifying karma, accumulating merit and gaining insights and wisdom are all due to our intentions. In that sense the ego is our companion on the path. Only a completely enlightened being, i.e. a Buddha respond to the needs of the world completely free of intentions. From the point of view of being in this world such state is incomprehensible to us. One way to understand the unintentional relation a Buddha has with reality is to understand that true reality and the mind of the Buddha cannot be separated into two. They are one and the same. On an ultimate level, so is our own Buddha nature too! It is also helpful to understand that the reason Prince Siddhartha attained complete enlightenment under that tree is precisely because of his previous pure intentions that he perfected throughout many many lifetimes prior to the last one. If we make our ego into an enemy to be slain, we have a problem. If we understand how to use it, skilfully, we will be able to navigate through some tricky waters and arrive at the other shore safely and free from its influence. This is where the intelligence of the path of Buddha Dharma that Lord Buddha taught the world is so unique! All we have to do is to follow in his footsteps and practice the Noble Eightfold Path and the Paramithas to attain what he attained. The vessel we need to cross over the turbulent waters and reach the other shore is the path of practice that the Lord Buddha have provided us with. That boat can only be operated by way of our own pure intentions, it doesn’t cross over to the other shore unless our intentions directs it to do so. There’s no point in trying to pretend we no longer have an ego. That is just plain self deception and no insight and wisdom will ever arise from such lies. But if we learn to be honest with what’s really controlling and directing our lives, right now, we will also be able to work in skilful way towards ever more purity in our intentions and outlooks. We will become ever more skilful in navigating the vessel across the turbulence of samsara and eventually reach the other shore when a vessel is needed no more. That’s when our mind and ultimately reality is truly seen as one. I wish all the best on your journey across to the ultimate shores of no return, my friend. 🙏🙏🙏 NAMO BUDDHA
@RaviBajnath3 ай бұрын
Speaking of Debt and forgiveness, the late anthropologist David Graeber wrote "Debt: The First 5,000 Years" and indirectly covers McLeod's debt/credit analysis across cultural history. Particularly chapters 2,3,4 (Myth of Barter, Primordial Debts, and Cruelty + Redemption). I highly recommend his body of work! Love your work Doug.
@EliseSecond3 ай бұрын
Thanks for the recommendation.
@GhostOnTheHalfShell3 ай бұрын
lol, I just said the same thing
@Giantcrabz3 ай бұрын
excellent taste in books my dude
@dianeyoung8068Ай бұрын
My qigong master always says that forgiveness is something that we do for our well-being, i.e. it is not contractual
@charliecastillo2011Ай бұрын
Wonderful video, Doug! This reminds of a sutta Ajahn Sona talked about in a video I watched regarding 5 ways to get rid of a grudge: 1. Metta 2. Karuna 3. Upekkha 4. Distract yourself from what’s making you angry 5. Just keep in mind that everyone is responsible for their own kamma
@DougsDharmaАй бұрын
Yes this sounds like a list from one of the suttas.
@uncle0eric3 ай бұрын
I've been thinking about forgiveness a bit lately and one thing I've noticed is that there are actually several different concepts of forgiveness. One is (as is suggested by the word) forward looking to how we predict people will behave in the future -- especially that they won't repeat past mistakes. The other is looking backward at past wrongs and letting go of our negative feelings about them.
@joltee93173 ай бұрын
Fostering forgiveness is akin to fostering loving kindness. Wishing a person you may find difficult well, as one would do when fostering loving kindness, is a kind of forgiveness. I don't think fostering loving kindness in Buddhism is separate from fostering a forgiving attitude.
@DougsDharma3 ай бұрын
Right, they are closely related.
@bam1119653 ай бұрын
This is a very interesting intellectual investigation with fair points on both sides. It should be noted that pre-western Buddhism had a very pronounced explicit belief in forgiveness. The Dhammapada Commentary (to vv. 389-90) (circa 5th Century CE) tells the story of a brahmin who violently attacked Sāriputta: "Those who saw the assault were enraged. They gathered at the brahmin’s house, armed with sticks and stones, ready to kill him. When Sāriputta emerged, accompanied by the brahmin carrying his bowl, they cried out: “Venerable sir, order this brahmin to turn back!” “Why, lay disciples?” asked the elder. They replied: “The man struck you, and we are going to give him what he deserves!” “But what do you mean? Was it you or me that he struck?” “It was you, venerable sir.” “Well, if it was me he struck, he has begged my pardon. Go your ways.” And so, dismissing the people and permitting the brahmin to return, the great elder calmly made his way back to the monastery." Quote from "Great Disciples of the Buddha" pg 24.
@DougsDharma3 ай бұрын
Great, thanks for the commentarial find. 🙏
@Censored.2253 ай бұрын
Forgiveness is letting go. Release. Not clinging. It’s not a requisite of enlightenment however it is a very compassionate form of generosity. Forgiveness doesn’t belong to Christians. Anyone can do it. And yes, it doesn’t matter how much you forgive someone, they will still bear the results of their actions (kamma). The perception of McLeod that forgiveness is bad practise is destructive and unkind. When you genuinely forgive, you experience it as a direct extension of compassion.
@twelvestories33302 ай бұрын
Forgiveness releases attachment.
@LucasLafrance3 ай бұрын
Like you mentioned at the end of the video, forgiveness is essentially linked to kindness practice. The fruits of forgiveness can only grow from the seeds of compassion. When we understand the three marks of existence in a way that becomes boundless, compassion can naturally be nurtured towards others. When we apply time in meditation to bring our attention on the feeling of compassion, we can expand its application to a wider space. We can nurture compassion towards those we love. We can also eventually do it towards those we hate. With enough dedication and effort, we can even nurture compassion towards the part of ourselves that we hate. When compassion enters the stream that is our relationship with our unconscious, our ego loses its grasp over our actions. Our incessant quest for praise transforms into a desire to share the fruits of compassion : forgiveness.
@paulexander3 ай бұрын
Another way to frame it has to do with addressing our conditioning. Holding a grudge or a grievance gets in the way of a lot of things in the mind. Like a broken record that never stops playing, our ability to be focused, peaceful, and /or present is repeatedly undermined. I say this from deep personal experience.
@sebastiann68023 ай бұрын
Great Video Doug, Thank you for everything :)
@DougsDharma3 ай бұрын
My pleasure!
@WanderingYogiThailand3 ай бұрын
So interesting! Thank you Dharma Doug! 😎🙏🏻
@DougsDharma2 ай бұрын
My pleasure!
@andrewyam79383 ай бұрын
Agree that the motivation behind forgiving is of utmost importance. My Western Theravada teacher Ajahn Brahmavamso is a huge proponent of forgiveness. "How often should you forgive? Always one more time!" The benefits are immense if done with the idea of letting go. It becomes a part of both compassion practice as well as dana practice. It is a "gift of nonviolence or harmlessness". Feeling good about oneself can be a good motivator to forgive, just as feeling good about it is a good motivator to donate to charity. It is like an instant psychological reward. I don't know why the first author has issue with it. When you forgive sincerely, it is like letting go of that burning piece of coal (anger) that you wanted to throw at the one who wronged you. You may or may not hit him but for sure you are getting burned more the longer you hold on to it. When you forgive, you put it down and nobody gets hurt any more. The sense of relief and peace from letting go and moving on is immense. There are many many similes and stories in the Pali canon where the Buddha extols forgiveness. The famous simile of the saw is the most extreme, where he says even if bandits saw you limb from limb, if you have any ill will towards them, you are not practicing his teachings.
@andrewyam79383 ай бұрын
In fact I would go so far as to say practising forgiveness properly is practising all the 4 brahma viharas simultaneously. Loving kindness and compassion goes without saying, but also a sense of joy arises from being able to let go of the hurt, and equanimity is developed and strengthened by realizing one does not have to react negatively in similar situations
@DougsDharma3 ай бұрын
Yes, I've mentioned the simile of the saw many times in my videos. Very powerful sutta.
@PictorialPlanet-2 ай бұрын
Thanks, Doug.
@marylee83723 ай бұрын
Thanks for discussing this interesting topic.
@DougsDharma3 ай бұрын
My pleasure!
@GorgeousRandyFlamethrower-3 ай бұрын
I agree more with Thanissaro bhikkhu. If the ideal one should strive towards is the cessation of suffering, then surely if forgiveness lessens suffering (both for the forgiven, who might seek closure, and the offended, who merely compounds his own suffering by holding onto a grudge) that is good practice. Am I off-base on this?
@Giantcrabz3 ай бұрын
no you aren't. The idea that this is a Judeo-Christian concept is absurd. Literally every culture on Earth structures ethics and justice in this way. Saying forgiveness isn't Buddhist just sounds like a convenience for people who don't want to forgive
@GorgeousRandyFlamethrower-3 ай бұрын
@@Giantcrabz I think what was said in the video was NOT that forgiveness is a Judeo-Christian concept, but that our (as in people living in the western cultural sphere) idea of what forgiveness is, is in part influenced by an Abrahamic monotheist societal-cultural background. And to be fair, it's always smart for a western person to keep in mind the fact that we are quick to view and assess Dharmic and other non-Abrahamic religions and philosophies through "Christian glasses" so to speak
@DougsDharma3 ай бұрын
Right, I think Thanissaro's point is that forgiveness is more for the offended, to break the cycle of retribution. That will give an opening to the forgiven if they are in the right place to take it.
@MrCmon1133 ай бұрын
Only it doesn't. It increases suffering by creating confusion. It makes you fight people, who are harmless, and not fight people, who should be fought.
@willmosse36843 ай бұрын
@@MrCmon113How does it make you fight people who are harmless?
@knightsremains3 ай бұрын
Thank you! Be well to you also!
@Eliphas_Elric3 ай бұрын
As a former Eastern Orthodox Christian turned Buddhist, I do want to point out that “original sin” so defined as a legal inheritance from Adam and Eve is a western Christian construct that developed at a much later point in time, and the Eastern Orthodox understanding is more in line with the original Christian teaching that due to Adam and Eve’s sin, mankind has inherited mortality and that because God is immortal, Jesus had to reconcile mortality and immortality through his death and resurrection, and it was never about a legal technicality in the east.
@DougsDharma3 ай бұрын
Interesting, thanks!
@Nous983 ай бұрын
@@Eliphas_Elric I heard Eastern (Orthodox) form of Christianity focus more on “theosis” and being one with God.
@Mr.Victor-qs2hj3 ай бұрын
@@Eliphas_Elric Can I ask you something? please?
@SecondTigerStyle3 ай бұрын
I'm curious as to what made you convert and leave EO behind. I was born into a EO Christian country but never followed the religion, Instead I practiced and studied Zen for many years. Recently I've dived deep into Eastern Orthodoxy again finding great value and sort of scratching that "itch" that Śūnyatā leaves. This lack of anything eternal and "stable" as Christ. Why do anything if there is no inherent nature in anything and the goal is to sort of "extinguish the flame" (not to strawman Buddhism of course). I just seem to be going back and forth, there are things that I struggle with in both paths.
@Mr.Victor-qs2hj3 ай бұрын
@@SecondTigerStyle Can you explain that clearer for me to understand please?
@markopirhory1612Ай бұрын
Such great insight! Love this channel. @dougsdharma how does kindness practice, karma, and forgiveness fit into Buddhist ideas about responding to perpetual and habitual acts of harm. We all wrong others in a multitude of ways, but what does Buddhism say about individuals who consciously and deliberately repeat wrongdoing to others. What would a Buddhist do when it is impossible to escape habitual harmful wrongdoing imposed from another? Just thinking about current events...
@DougsDharmaАй бұрын
This is of course a very difficult question! The Buddha is clear that we should strive to retain metta towards all beings, even those who harm us. That said, I think we all recognize that such advice is extremely difficult for most of us to maintain, and we don't want to fall into spiritual bypassing. It may help to consider the internal suffering and delusion that such people most likely are going through themselves, and aim for at least a little compassion for them, along of course with those they are hurting. Also, it will probably help to spend time with a mind that is turned to other matters, such as our own practice or our community. And do what we can to help the world more generally, of course. We can only be responsible for our own actions and intentions.
@bitofwizdomb72663 ай бұрын
Forgive others not because they deserve forgiveness, but because you deserve peace and equanimity all while understanding that the offender has not been enlightened
@fireatwill81433 ай бұрын
How does the Buddhist idea of forgiveness compair with indifference? 🙏
@DougsDharma3 ай бұрын
Indifference isn't caring, it's dismissive. Forgiveness can be done with a caring attitude.
@23centrifuge3 ай бұрын
This is a very timely video in my practice and appreciate it very much. I wonder about the act of forgiveness as a way to offer, in kindness, the other person the opportunity to also exit the same cycle of suffering you describe it offering to ourselves? I feel like there may he some basis for this in parts of Shatideva’s descriptions of patience and generosity in the Way of the Bodhisattva, and am curious on your take as well. Does this thought that offering an additional off ramp to further suffering by offering forgiveness to another just further the dualistic and ego centered mind, or would it be a beneficial practice? Thank you for your videos!!
@DougsDharma3 ай бұрын
I think it can also function that way, if the other person is in the right place for it. 🙏
@Daniel-Strain3 ай бұрын
Well said - excellent video! Many thanks :)
@DougsDharma3 ай бұрын
My pleasure!
@lelandstronks3193 ай бұрын
Again. another great topic that I’ve been pondering for myself, for sometime now. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.🫡☸️
@DougsDharma3 ай бұрын
Wonderful!
@willmosse36843 ай бұрын
I think Macleod is incorrect in his understanding of forgiveness in Christian doctrine. Meaning, therefore, that he is also wrong in the way interprets his (mis)understanding of forgiveness in the context of Buddhist practice. In Christianity, absolution of sin through forgiveness is the prerogative of God alone. No human can do that for/to another human. Humans should strive to practice forgiveness, in the example set by Jesus Christ. But this has no power over the results of the sin of another. As such, it doesn’t make sense to claim that a Christian hangover in Western Buddhists leads to them claiming they have the power to erase the bad karma of another through forgiveness. The original belief that he thinks is hanging over was never there in the first place. It seems pretty clear to me that to continue to hold the bad actions of others against them is clinging, which involves selfing of them and us, and creates dukkha. Forgiveness is letting go of that blame, that clinging to ill will, which reduces selfing and reduces dukkha.
@willmosse36842 ай бұрын
@ Very well put
@FH837423 ай бұрын
How I view it forgiveness is a form of non attachment, where you are no longer bothered by feelings of vengence to the person who has wronged you. You don't have to announce to the person you have forgiven them if you feel this isn't beneficial. I see forgiveness as something which is maybe more impactful for the one forgiving than the one who gets forgiven.
@4shblakeАй бұрын
Great vid. Question for you Doug: do you think that when applied to a western context, this idea from Dhp. 3-5 actually encourages victims of crime not to take them to court and get legal justice? Intrigued on your interpretation. Thanks
@DougsDharmaАй бұрын
Personally I wouldn't think so, it's about the way one should approach such concerns emotionally rather than legally.
@kathrynantenbring3 ай бұрын
I see the power dynamic the opposite way: when someone harms you in some way, conventionally you are obliged to take offence, be wronged, be in a victim identity, seek restitution, have various afflictive emotions related to being victimized. This is a power that the offender has over the victim, to shape their reality and oblige them to have experiences they might not choose to have, maybe indefinitely, maybe involving significant inconvenience and discomfort. In my practice partly informed by Buddhism, I see forgiveness as somewhat analogous to equanimity, and also to working with shenpa (Ani Pema Chodron) in the following way: Lacking equanimity and indulging in shenpa involve having beliefs and somatic experiences around wanting things to be different than they are, but not being willing or able to allow those experiences to arise and pass. We’re getting stuck on them, and we’re looping around and maybe proliferating similarly sticky experiences. Similarly, lacking forgiveness involves having beliefs and somatic experiences around wanting things to be different than they are, and not being willing or able to allow those experiences to arise and pass. Without forgiveness, we’re just perseverating on some set of experiences or realities and not moving beyond them, to some extent or another. We could say semantically and practically equanimity and forgiveness are not, of course, the exact same thing, and there are different cultural heritage factors involved, but the similarity is in the orientation an individual takes to phenomena, being willing or not to release the inner gripping of insistence that things be a particular preferred way
@DougsDharma3 ай бұрын
🙏
@akashicturtle18273 ай бұрын
Depends on how you define forgiveness. If you mean letting go of grudges, then of course that’s Buddhist. But if it means you can/should absolve ppl of their bad karma, then no, that’s not Buddhist. And in fairness to Christians, I don’t think all Christians understand forgiveness the same way. I sometimes hear Christians say “let god judge them” as a way of letting go of their desire for revenge or obligation towards wrongdoers, which is in line with Buddhist practice of accepting karma.
@saralamuni3 ай бұрын
for·give, /fərˈɡiv/, verb: stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake.
@vincentzacks95843 ай бұрын
Thanks for the video, Doug ! How about when you cause harm to someone else, is it required to ask for forgiveness or just do a purification practice?
@DougsDharma3 ай бұрын
No requirement is mentioned in the early texts to my knowledge, however it is considered skillful to feel regret for causing harm to another, and if one feels sincere regret then telling the person about the regret may help to heal wounds. It also may not, of course: that's up to the person injured. But all one can do is to make a sincere intention and effort not to repeat the same action in the future. (And even so, we may fail again).
@vincentzacks95843 ай бұрын
@@DougsDharma Thanks Doug!
@hermenutic3 ай бұрын
Would it be correct to say that the Buddhists understanding of the nature of life (impermanence) makes holding a grudge or forgiveness unnecessary and counter productive to spiritual health?
@DougsDharma3 ай бұрын
Holding a grudge certainly is counterproductive. Forgiveness, depends how one looks at it.
@vind3022 ай бұрын
The scholars trip me up. Forgiveness meditation is simply a way to let go of the pain we hold onto from when other people have hurt us. It’s powerful and pretty straightforward.
@xiaomaozen3 ай бұрын
To me personally, practicing forgiveness is a "natural" (and even necessary) part of practicing non-attachment and letting go. Thanks for the vid, Doug. Great as always. 🐱🙏
@DougsDharma3 ай бұрын
Yes, good way to look at it. 🙏
@spiritualanarchist81623 ай бұрын
'Christian' forgiveness is one of the few dogmas I rather like. I think it's more about the peace of mind of the one who's been the victim .
@willmosse36843 ай бұрын
Yes. Macleod is wrong in his understanding of the principle of forgiveness in Christian doctrine. Which means he is also wrong when he then imports that incorrect understanding of forgiveness into Buddhist practice.
@leonlopez57042 ай бұрын
My take: context is everything. Do what's appropriate. The problem is what is and isn't appropriate isn't set in stone. The point of liberation from Karma is to understand the ethical qualities of Karma is subjective and unpredictable in the long term. To free yourself from it is through detachment. That being said, we need to create a culture of accountability that isn't vengeful.
@craigheidgerken2363 ай бұрын
I wonder how forgiveness fits in with Dependent Origination. In the chapter labeled Causation, in the Samyutta Nikaya, the question of who creates Karma arises in multiple verses. Is it the self, or the other, or the two together that create Karma? It is stated that it is none of those. But that Karma arises through/because of Dependent Origination. By let’s say contact through the sense bases; as is gestured to in some of the verses. With Karma not arising from a self, but through/because of Dependent Origination, what even is forgiveness? How can one forgive that which is not there; a self? Is this a too strict of interpretation of Dependent Origination? Or is this a mundane (practical) opposed to ultra mundane (actuality) situation. As in it’s still skillful to forgive or to say compassionate things. Possibly creating good Karma. But in actuality one would be continuing the “whole mass of suffering.” So it is actually not skillful. Interesting thing to ponder.
@DougsDharma2 ай бұрын
I think we can sometimes get lost in the thicket of views. The Buddha himself said the workings of karma are too complex to reason out, so I think it's probably better practice just to leave speculation aside, and focus on what's skillful here and now.
@Hattie2m3 ай бұрын
I agree it definitely depends on your definition of "forgiveness". The way many people, especially conservative, evangelical Christians use it, is that power dynamic. The way i belive it is meant to be understood in most Christian (and buddhist) tradition is to let go of hatred and detach yourself from the emotion of the situation.
@benjaminamis42943 ай бұрын
Thanissaro's take as presented here is far more in line with the ancient Christian understanding than what is presented by McCloud and the legalistic understanding presented at the beginning of the video. As an Eastern Orthdoox Christian, Thanissaro's understanding seems very close and even likely compatible with my tradition's teachings. For Orthodoxy and the early Christian teachings, these matters of having sinned against another and providing forgiveness to those who have sinned against us is more about the healing of our souls and restoration to wholeness than about this contractual, power-brokering notion that does exist in some sects of Christianity, which while some of that language exists for Orthodoxy it is a limited metaphor. Far more often it is the metaphors of medicine, healing, and hospitals that we find rather than justice, law, and courts. We even have a conceptualization that the effects of our sin radiate throughout the universe and has a spiritual effect not only on us but that it damages our communion with the rest of the Creation (not just with God) and thereby damages all, and that forgiveness and repentence are means by which to lessen this, which is not unlike the teachings around karma presented here. I'm not saying Christianity accepts karma, really, but we share with Buddhism this idea that the consequences of our actions reverberate throughout the universe.
@DougsDharma2 ай бұрын
Thanks! 🙏
@ewkeenan2 ай бұрын
From a Dharma point of view, it seems that forgiveness should be seen as a practice of recognizing the emptiness of the object of harm (me), the act of harm, and the subject of harm (“other”), and recognizing emptiness, applying the antidote of patience to our own mind, so as not to poison it and cause further harm. One is recommended to see our enemy as presenting us with an opportunity to understand emptiness, as a dharma teacher instead. Forgiveness seen through the eyes of compassion is also recognition that the empty “other” can not be completely responsible for their harmful actions in any case, because they too are suffering from ignorance, or an incomplete view, just like us.
@johncrwarnerАй бұрын
I think of the Chan Buddhist (Zen) story of two monks on a journey. They come to a flooded river and there is a woman who needed to cross one of the monks picks her up and carries her across They continue on their way at the end of their journey the other monk says "You know it is forbidden for monks to touch women yet you carried the woman over the river" The first monk replies "I put her down on the far bank yet you are still carrying her"
@DougsDharmaАй бұрын
Yes I love that story.
@accademiaoscura78703 ай бұрын
Original sin is NOT part of early or traditional Christianity. It was a much later, Roman Catholic invention, promoted by Saint Augustine of Hippo. Original Sin as a concept, does not exist in the Eastern Orthodox Church.
@oldstudent25872 ай бұрын
In my parents' sect of Christianity (and in some others), the Lord's Prayer goes, "...Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." Other versions do not say that, but it was what I thought of during your discussion of forgiveness as about debt.
@DougsDharma2 ай бұрын
Interesting, thanks!
@accademiaoscura78703 ай бұрын
In one of the early Sutras, the the historical Buddha states that one should not feel any ill-feelings, even for a person that chops off our limbs one by one and murders us through horrific torture.
@DougsDharma2 ай бұрын
Right, the sutta on the two handled saw is one I've mentioned many times in my videos. Important teaching!
@lazydaisy6493 ай бұрын
I don’t forgive my abusers. I don’t hate them either. Hatred is a negative emotion that I don’t want to feel or to act on.
@Giantcrabz3 ай бұрын
If you don't hate them or ask to be made whole, then you have forgiven them by definition.
@DougsDharma3 ай бұрын
Yes I think giving up hatred towards them is functionally the same as forgiving them in Buddhism. It does not absolve them.
@MrCmon1133 ай бұрын
@@Giantcrabz That's totally wrong. Have you "forgiven" tsunamis or lethal diseases? What would that even mean? "Forgiveness" means deluding yourself into thinking that someone, who wishes you no harm, is still somehow polluted by their past deeds. And it deludes you into thinking that someone, who DOES wish you harm, should not be resisted.
@zakosist2 ай бұрын
Its good you arent burdened by hatred. But I think abusers take advantage of people being TOO forgiving, and even if that particular person may avoid them in the future, often does nothing to make sure they actually face consequenses or get stopped. And then they can just move on to the next victim. You may not be in a position to do something, so not blaming. But thats something to think about. Sometimes I think even the most compassionate action is actually to make sure those who truly deserve it face consequenses, legal or otherwise, thus protect would be victims in the future. When someone truly is remorseful/genuinely change for the better (and not as an act) then forgiveness may be more right
@mapro39483 ай бұрын
I found it interesting to hear that you were not raised in a Christian tradition, which makes for an interesting perspective (especially since many of us Europeans have a bit of a clichée in mind that associates Americans heavily with Christianity)
@DougsDharma3 ай бұрын
28% of the US population describe themselves now as "nones", with no religion: www.npr.org/2024/01/24/1226371734/religious-nones-are-now-the-largest-single-group-in-the-u-s . It was lower when I was growing up, but still significant. We tend to hear about the world in generalities and clichés, without attending to the nuances. I'm as guilty as the next person, but it's a wise awareness when we take account of it! 😊
@ZingaroXIV3 ай бұрын
To forgive is an action with two possible vectors. The first and oldest definition is to cease to feel angry or resentful toward an offender. This, in my opinion, falls within Buddhist practice as it is management of one's own emotions and attitudes. The other active definition is to release another from a debt or obligation. That, to me, is not Buddhist practice as it assumes that one can somehow absolve another of the karma they have created for themselves. One can forgive the harm done by another (cease to feel angry or resentful) while still expecting that their karma will take its course.
@zelenisok3 ай бұрын
I find it interesring that repentance is virtually ignored in Buddhism (especially in Theravada), could you maybe do a video on that?
@weeshooen95103 ай бұрын
Repentance is one big part of Buddhism, especially in the Chinese Mahayana tradition. There is a Repentance ritual/chanting where the monks and the practitioners will recite all sorts of wrongdoings we have committed in our past lives.
@DougsDharma3 ай бұрын
Certainly remorse and regret are considered skillful states of mind when considering one's past wrong actions. Within the monastic context as well sincere repentance is key when one violates a rule.
@zelenisok3 ай бұрын
@weeshooen9510 @DougsDharma I think I remember a point, maybe from a Sutta or some other Theravada text, about how in Jainism repentance is considered good, because if you do a bad thing you now have bad karma and it comes to fruition by your negative experiences, and when you feel remorse for doing something bad, that is a negative experience, you are mentally in pain, and that dissipates the bad karma you had from doing something bad. But then the Buddhist view is asserted to be the opposite, that such remorse is actually bad, not only are you not dissipating bad karma, you are actually acquiring new bad karma, because you are pointlessly making yourself feel bad thinking it will dissipate bad karma, and instead of making yourself feel bad, you should go and do good, to make up for the bad karma. I wish I could remember where I read that, but I cant..
@manojkumarn24642 ай бұрын
Hello sir I am from India I watched your videos about rebirth and non self... Please answer in a single word.... Whether rebirth is exist or not...
@samfawlia3 ай бұрын
in buddhism who is there to forgive anyway?
@DougsDharma3 ай бұрын
True, and there is also a discussion in the realm of karma, action, and intention.
@samfawlia3 ай бұрын
@@DougsDharma i agree, it totally makes sense that there isn’t much talk about forgiveness in early buddhism, if you understand it enough, forgiveness couldn’t really make sense within a buddhist framework imo
@samfawlia3 ай бұрын
that being said i’m a fan of forgiveness
@brycie_boy3 ай бұрын
I think it is. Forgiveness is letting go whereas holding a grudge is clinging
@MrCmon1133 ай бұрын
Forgiveness is precisely the kind nonsensical concept from which things like "grudges" arise. They're two sides of the same coin.
@willmosse36843 ай бұрын
Exactly. Holding a grudge is clearly clinging, and also often aversion. Which involves selfing, and leads to dukkha. So forgiveness is letting go of clinging, and as such reduces selfing, and reduces dukkha. So the referenced Western Theravada teachers are correct - forgiveness does reduce one’s own suffering. But not because of some power play over someone else’s sin/bad karma (which isn’t even the Christian position anyway, where absolution through forgiveness is prerogative of God alone, not something one human can do in for/to another).
@brycie_boy3 ай бұрын
@MrCmon113 what? The concept of forgiveness isn’t what gave rise to the concept of a grudge. The word grudge refers to a sustained sense of contempt toward someone who you feel has wronged you. Forgiveness is the act of letting go of that contempt
@zakosist2 ай бұрын
@@MrCmon113 I think sometimes, anger is a natural trauma response and a grudge could stem from that. But its something one should strive to not do excessively, rather than delve into. And that doesnt mean it will neccesarily be gone and never come back. However, making sure bad actions have consequenses for the person who did it, when possible, is a good thing that can help deter it in the future and indirectly protect other people. But thats simply not always possible. Punishment should not be worse than the oringinal crime and not harm anyone whose not actually guilty
@jamesdoyle27693 ай бұрын
I think some of the problem is terminology. "Forgiveness" is a form of giving, which is a dualistic transfer of something from one person to another. That doesn't align with our insight that self is non-self. What's the situation in other languages? In Irish the verb is "maithim". "Maithim" means good, so in this verb it basically means making some situation good. In Swedish the term is "förlåta." "Låta" is related to Englsih "let", so this word is about release. In Chinese the term is 原谅 yuánliàng. Liàng means excuse. There's no giving involved. Another term is 宽恕 kuānshù. Shù means to excuse. or show mercy, to refrain from punishment or vengeance. These are different formulations of these situations in completely unrelated languages and cultures. So the problem of forgiveness is based on the formulation in a specific cultural tradition. Swedish and Irish are in that tradition, but only peripherally.
@NigelRBlack3 ай бұрын
Thich Nhat Hanh teaches extensively on forgiveness as an element of practice. One excerpt: “Recognize the suffering. Understand the suffering. And by having the desire to help that person to suffer less, you will be able to forgive very easily. Without that understanding, forgiveness is difficult; even if you want to forgive, you cannot…But if you can understand the suffering…and see that they have been the number one victim of their own suffering, the situation becomes different: you can forgive more easily.”
@festechew64683 ай бұрын
Not forgiveness which is a concept of religion imputed by bhikhus who come from a Christian or Jewish background, into their interpretation of the dharma, but letting go of anger, grudge, resentment, etc., not creating and storing unwholesome karma in the 8th consciousness, Alaya consciousness or Mind-basis-of-all. The practice of forgiveness which is not Buddhistic and should be shunned, as it will dilute the firm conviction in karma and its effects as well as in the taking of the three refuges. What the Mind Only dharma practitioner does is just letting the wrongdoer know that one does not hold any grudge or resentment, what has been done is the doer's karma and move on. The wrongdoer is informed not to do the unwholesome action again as it will be accumulated as karma which the person will have to experience the suffering to exhaust it.
@UniversalistSon93 ай бұрын
Well humility is though and that could include forgiveness
@bodhisattvaFM3 ай бұрын
I wouldn't typically respond to Tricycle since they put Buddhism behind a paywall but here goes: How does generating good merit in a no-self context while surrounded by people who are harming others differ from forgiveness? Who does the merit belong to?
@DougsDharma3 ай бұрын
Good questions, big questions. I have a video that might help for some of it: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y6rPnHeffMyfpJo
@sonamtshering1943 ай бұрын
Forgiveness being Buddhist or not depends on how it is applied and its context. For instance, if we are wronged by someone; we feel resentment and hatred towards that person. As per Buddhist practice, the main goal would be to let go of those negative feelings. If forgiveness allows us to do it then it is fine. However, that doesn't mean that forgiveness is the only way to accomplish that goal. As it is possible that despite no longer feeling resentment and hatred towards the one who wronged you in the past, you still haven't forgiven that person. You simply decide to not let the resentment and hatred dictate your life. Non-hatred is quite broad after all and forgiveness is just one among many ways to let go of the past and move on with your life
@DougsDharma3 ай бұрын
I suppose it seems to me that if you've given up resentment and hatred towards the person that's wronged you, that's functionally the same as forgiving them. How do you see the difference?
@sonamtshering1943 ай бұрын
@@DougsDharma The difference is that while the resentment and hatred is no longer there as you recognize the fact that what has been done cannot be undone, you haven't forgiven the person who wronged you but simply harbor no feeling to retaliate against the said person. Be it physically or mentally. Like if a close friend betrays your trust, you hate him as a result of the hurt he has caused you and the friendship ends. Overtime you realize that you are the one who is being harmed from all the hate you are directing towards him and work towards letting it go. When you meet that former friend of yours again, you no longer see him as a trusted confidant. You wish that former friend well but no longer want anything to do with him anymore.
@zakosist2 ай бұрын
Also a difference if the way you avoid feeling anger is by simply not thinking about it much, and maybe you avoid it as much as you can, and thats the only way that works. But if you were to start thinking deeply into it, you may find that you have not truly forgiven and those bad feelings come back. That is moving on, sometimes the best you can do, but not forgiving in the true sense.
@sonamtshering1942 ай бұрын
@@zakosist One way is that those negative feelings get replaced by plain indifference
@uwehirayama95443 ай бұрын
When I forgive somebody that is imho totally different from that what the Christian God may do
@zakosist2 ай бұрын
From how I got it, the christan god will basically forgive anyone for anything as long as they ask forgiveness afterwards and belong to the "right" religion (nobody knows for sure whats right). Basically no consequenses at all, thus no accounabilety, no real detterant from bad actions. Imagine if a jugde were to have the same policy. And yet, people who simply believe in something else may be tortured for eternity for even minor wrongdoings. To me, that makes no sense at all, even if the sense have been explained many times. Thats part of why I will never be religious personally
@uwehirayama95442 ай бұрын
@zakosist 🍀🌸🍀
@paulbail14513 ай бұрын
Two truths. On the level of conventional truth, totally aside from karma issue, conventionally we live in a society, with a social contract, and you do incur a debt socially, and socially you should do what is necessary to repair injury. Ken McLeod is a bit off here. A bit individualistic in his analysis. This has nothing to do with Christianity. It has to do with being in a society.
@Giantcrabz3 ай бұрын
yeah it seems like unnecessary contrarianism for the sake of cranking out an article imo
@twelvestories33303 ай бұрын
I think the original sin was actually the evolution of language. The eating of the fruit of good and evil represents the evolution of language. Language displaced instincts which is represented by getting kicked out of the garden. Eve's punishment for language was/is painful childbirth caused by the larger heads needed for language. Adam's nakedness was literally his loss of monkey fur leaving his body hairless (mostly) and therefore naked. The snake represented language itself and evil represented evolution. Eve wasn't just one person, she was all women up to that time and Adam wasn't just one man. He was all men up to that time. The story of Adam and Eve therefore describes the evolution of language and our body forms and also the development of agriculture. The sin we are being forgiven of is the sin of the evolution of language. Complete forgiveness and enlightenment are essentially the same concepts.
Forgiveneness is not contractual in Buddhism but is a common sense step in the way of human harmony. There is nothing inherently in karma that make forgiveness condusive to bad(or good) Karma. General Karma not personal karma, which is not only influenced by our own action, but also of the others, even before we are born... Karma is a near infinite and over and multi determinated current of causes. Are you a cause for good or not, depend on your freedom from this determination. Only true Sunyatta and deep meditation open the real possibility of acting with freedom... a true natural break into this Neverending Chain... this is the true source of compassion... A real possibility of Karuna that spring immediately from from true practice. Inherently compationated even when results of any action in this world of Sansara are not, in any way, just positive. Even when that is the case, in the Heart of Emptiness, the flower of compassion make posible the only true Liberty we have as Humans... That is why the heart of wisdom, form that is emptiness, emptiness that is form, is also a heart. A famous case Buddha accepted Devadatta in the Sangha, did not saw the outcome from the beginning. But even in this sad development he did not ceased helping him to overcome his limits... Even in his sometimes negative reaction to his nephew's schemes... Compassion have to show negativity sometimes... That's why a good coup with an encouraging Koisaku could be a great compationated tool to help a student, even when poorly understood in occidental Zen in general... Scholars need to exercise this discerment more often... Not everything in the field of historical interpretation is unilateral...
@overthehorizon69322 ай бұрын
Its all abouth Once self . If you Forgive people who did wrong to you ,your free. Hate can not kill Hate. Only Non hate( love /Compassion can) But that does notmean person who did wrong is forgiven. He/she will carry the Karama with him.( wrong means Intentionally done wrong deeds) guilt is there. Even you are middle of the sea,in cave Karma never leave you.
@zakosist2 ай бұрын
Forgiveness may be buddhist. Im not speaking from a religious perspective, but I have a slightly different view on forgiveness. Many times its needed, but I think abusive people take advantage of people being too forgiving, and not having to actually face real consequenses, and even if that person avoids them in the future, they can just move on to the next victim. Ensuring if possible, that people face consequenses (visible regardless of religion) is actually important and part of protecting others from abuse. Those who show genuine remorse or truly change for the better are usually much more deserving of forgiveness. Minor wrongdoings have to be forgiven pretty often.
@DougsDharma2 ай бұрын
Yes though to be clear from a traditional Buddhist perspective forgiving someone doesn't relieve them of the burden of their karmic consequences.
@lievenyperman93633 ай бұрын
We have handled this topic and article in a 'right speech class' at the monastery where I'm staying. The idea of good and bad karma and also individual karma is not the consensus take on Karma i would argue. Some would say there is only karma, don't take it personally and labeling it good and bad would be a classic example of creating dualism. I'm no expert just a practicioner and these are just some of the thoughts I have on this.
@Dutchwheelchair2 ай бұрын
forgiveness doesn't change the thing you did. i do think it is part of moving on. or a moment to change your ways and to do better. But im not a Buddhist myself
@DougsDharma2 ай бұрын
That's right, non-attachment to past events, an intention to move on.
@Dutchwheelchair2 ай бұрын
@@DougsDharma like in the Bhaddekaratta Sutta. Its about this topic. In a similar way. But i could have interpreted wrong
@transcendentalarts59423 ай бұрын
I was disappointed to learn that the hate-related quote is not well translated. In early Buddhism, love was seen more as an attachment than non-hate. Christianity is radically different in that sense.
@DougsDharma3 ай бұрын
Well "mettā" or "lovingkindness" isn't attachment.
@transcendentalarts59423 ай бұрын
@@DougsDharma what is Love in Buddhism? And what is the difference between love and non hate?
@bretrohde73003 ай бұрын
Yep, by forgiving, one in no way reduces the bad karma of the forgiven, but one certainly reduces one’s own bad karma. The fact that this very point is essentially the second verse of the Dhammapada (in that these verses are literally “pairs”) really drives it home. Thanks again, Doug!
@recyclingnik3 ай бұрын
@@bretrohde7300 do you believe that everything that happens to everyone is defined by karma?
@Giantcrabz3 ай бұрын
karma isn't real
@HM_123483 ай бұрын
@@GiantcrabzWithin your own space you can say such thing like this, it is a firmly established concept among many Traditions. Therefore, enough with the definitive statements; you have no argument against the other party's claims, but the other has a moral justification for what he believes.
@Giantcrabz3 ай бұрын
@@HM_12348 there are infants who develop bone cancer. Pointless suffering of innocents. Is that because of bad karma from a past life? If so, I want nothing to do with your "morality"
@HM_123483 ай бұрын
@@Giantcrabz No its not Buddy, You understand karma on a personal, embodied basis, like a monarch dispensing justicealso, also this is not my "morality", I know something called neutrality, and I think everyone should become acquainted with it. The Buddhist View on karma (kamma) it doesn't claim That all suffering is due to past karma, The Buddha identified multiple causes of illness/suffering: * Karma (kammaja) * Environmental conditions (utuja) * Physical imbalances (cittaja) * Natural changes (rituja) In the Sivaka Sutta (SN 36.21), The Buddha explicitly rejected the view that all suffering is caused by past karma: "𝘛𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘤𝘢𝘴𝘦𝘴 𝘸𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦 𝘴𝘰𝘮𝘦 𝘧𝘦𝘦𝘭𝘪𝘯𝘨𝘴 𝘢𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘦 𝘣𝘢𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘰𝘯 𝘣𝘪𝘭𝘦. 𝘠𝘰𝘶 𝘺𝘰𝘶𝘳𝘴𝘦𝘭𝘧 𝘴𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘭𝘥 𝘬𝘯𝘰𝘸 𝘩𝘰𝘸 𝘴𝘰𝘮𝘦 𝘧𝘦𝘦𝘭𝘪𝘯𝘨𝘴 𝘢𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘦 𝘣𝘢𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘰𝘯 𝘣𝘪𝘭𝘦. 𝘌𝘷𝘦𝘯 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘸𝘰𝘳𝘭𝘥 𝘪𝘴 𝘢𝘨𝘳𝘦𝘦𝘥 𝘰𝘯 𝘩𝘰𝘸 𝘴𝘰𝘮𝘦 𝘧𝘦𝘦𝘭𝘪𝘯𝘨𝘴 𝘢𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘦 𝘣𝘢𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘰𝘯 𝘣𝘪𝘭𝘦. 𝘚𝘰 𝘢𝘯𝘺 𝘣𝘳𝘢𝘩𝘮𝘢𝘯𝘴 & 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘮𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘷𝘦𝘴 𝘸𝘩𝘰 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘥𝘰𝘤𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘯𝘦 & 𝘷𝘪𝘦𝘸 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘸𝘩𝘢𝘵𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘳 𝘢𝘯 𝘪𝘯𝘥𝘪𝘷𝘪𝘥𝘶𝘢𝘭 𝘧𝘦𝘦𝘭𝘴 - 𝘱𝘭𝘦𝘢𝘴𝘶𝘳𝘦, 𝘱𝘢𝘪𝘯, 𝘯𝘦𝘪𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘳-𝘱𝘭𝘦𝘢𝘴𝘶𝘳𝘦-𝘯𝘰𝘳-𝘱𝘢𝘪𝘯 - 𝘪𝘴 𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘪𝘳𝘦𝘭𝘺 𝘤𝘢𝘶𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘣𝘺 𝘸𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘸𝘢𝘴 𝘥𝘰𝘯𝘦 𝘣𝘦𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘦 - 𝘴𝘭𝘪𝘱 𝘱𝘢𝘴𝘵 𝘸𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘺 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘮𝘴𝘦𝘭𝘷𝘦𝘴 𝘬𝘯𝘰𝘸, 𝘴𝘭𝘪𝘱 𝘱𝘢𝘴𝘵 𝘸𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘪𝘴 𝘢𝘨𝘳𝘦𝘦𝘥 𝘰𝘯 𝘣𝘺 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘸𝘰𝘳𝘭𝘥. 𝘛𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘦 𝘐 𝘴𝘢𝘺 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘰𝘴𝘦 𝘣𝘳𝘢𝘩𝘮𝘢𝘯𝘴 & 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘮𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘷𝘦𝘴 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘸𝘳𝘰𝘯𝘨." "𝘛𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘤𝘢𝘴𝘦𝘴 𝘸𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦 𝘴𝘰𝘮𝘦 𝘧𝘦𝘦𝘭𝘪𝘯𝘨𝘴 𝘢𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘦 𝘣𝘢𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘰𝘯 𝘱𝘩𝘭𝘦𝘨𝘮... 𝘣𝘢𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘰𝘯 𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘳𝘯𝘢𝘭 𝘸𝘪𝘯𝘥𝘴... 𝘣𝘢𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘰𝘯 𝘢 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘣𝘪𝘯𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘰𝘧 𝘣𝘰𝘥𝘪𝘭𝘺 𝘩𝘶𝘮𝘰𝘳𝘴... 𝘧𝘳𝘰𝘮 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘤𝘩𝘢𝘯𝘨𝘦 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘴𝘦𝘢𝘴𝘰𝘯𝘴... 𝘧𝘳𝘰𝘮 𝘶𝘯𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘯 𝘤𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘣𝘰𝘥𝘺... 𝘧𝘳𝘰𝘮 𝘩𝘢𝘳𝘴𝘩 𝘵𝘳𝘦𝘢𝘵𝘮𝘦𝘯𝘵... 𝘧𝘳𝘰𝘮 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘳𝘦𝘴𝘶𝘭𝘵 𝘰𝘧 𝘬𝘢𝘮𝘮𝘢. 𝘠𝘰𝘶 𝘺𝘰𝘶𝘳𝘴𝘦𝘭𝘧 𝘴𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘭𝘥 𝘬𝘯𝘰𝘸 𝘩𝘰𝘸 𝘴𝘰𝘮𝘦 𝘧𝘦𝘦𝘭𝘪𝘯𝘨𝘴 𝘢𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘦 𝘧𝘳𝘰𝘮 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘳𝘦𝘴𝘶𝘭𝘵 𝘰𝘧 𝘬𝘢𝘮𝘮𝘢. 𝘌𝘷𝘦𝘯 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘸𝘰𝘳𝘭𝘥 𝘪𝘴 𝘢𝘨𝘳𝘦𝘦𝘥 𝘰𝘯 𝘩𝘰𝘸 𝘴𝘰𝘮𝘦 𝘧𝘦𝘦𝘭𝘪𝘯𝘨𝘴 𝘢𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘦 𝘧𝘳𝘰𝘮 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘳𝘦𝘴𝘶𝘭𝘵 𝘰𝘧 𝘬𝘢𝘮𝘮𝘢. 𝘚𝘰 𝘢𝘯𝘺 𝘣𝘳𝘢𝘩𝘮𝘢𝘯𝘴 & 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘮𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘷𝘦𝘴 𝘸𝘩𝘰 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘥𝘰𝘤𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘯𝘦 & 𝘷𝘪𝘦𝘸 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘸𝘩𝘢𝘵𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘳 𝘢𝘯 𝘪𝘯𝘥𝘪𝘷𝘪𝘥𝘶𝘢𝘭 𝘧𝘦𝘦𝘭𝘴 - 𝘱𝘭𝘦𝘢𝘴𝘶𝘳𝘦, 𝘱𝘢𝘪𝘯, 𝘯𝘦𝘪𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘳 𝘱𝘭𝘦𝘢𝘴𝘶𝘳𝘦-𝘯𝘰𝘳-𝘱𝘢𝘪𝘯 - 𝘪𝘴 𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘪𝘳𝘦𝘭𝘺 𝘤𝘢𝘶𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘣𝘺 𝘸𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘸𝘢𝘴 𝘥𝘰𝘯𝘦 𝘣𝘦𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘦 - 𝘴𝘭𝘪𝘱 𝘱𝘢𝘴𝘵 𝘸𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘺 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘮𝘴𝘦𝘭𝘷𝘦𝘴 𝘬𝘯𝘰𝘸, 𝘴𝘭𝘪𝘱 𝘱𝘢𝘴𝘵 𝘸𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘪𝘴 𝘢𝘨𝘳𝘦𝘦𝘥 𝘰𝘯 𝘣𝘺 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘸𝘰𝘳𝘭𝘥. 𝘛𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘦 𝘐 𝘴𝘢𝘺 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘰𝘴𝘦 𝘣𝘳𝘢𝘩𝘮𝘢𝘯𝘴 & 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘮𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘷𝘦𝘴 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘸𝘳𝘰𝘯𝘨." Important Understanding is That Karma is not punishment or reward, It's not a moral judgment system, It's a natural law of cause and effect, Not all suffering can be explained by karma. in all cases of suffering, we must help, empathize, and do everything we can to alleviate their pain, rather than some people viewing their situation as a punishment. I think that we have Many examples of that in our world Unfortunately. May all beings find peace and freedom from suffering. May those in difficult circumstances find relief, and may we all learn to help rather than harm each other. [ KZbin keeps deleting my comment every time, and I don't even know why. I hope it stays this time-it's the fifteenth time :) ]
@rei88202 ай бұрын
"The sages consider asking forgiveness as a way of erasing bad things from the mind” (Ajahn Liem)
@ChillAndPeaceful3 ай бұрын
Kindness is not part of survival kit All humans and other organism doing are 1. Survival 2. Reproducing 3. Entertainment/ coping mechanisms include religion, sex, movies, video games, travel, drugs, ritual, traditions, etc... But life is all about struggle for existence, survival of the fittest If survival needs have been sone then organism looking for pleasure like sex or coping mechanisms then if the coping mechanisms is done then organism will find another fantasy like religion and when organism done with that then another coping mechanisms comes, It's all about survival and entertainment, because life is default boring and only target is to survive
@BlackHorse-d6o2 ай бұрын
I don't think it's particularly useful when American Buddhist's express their superiority over other spiritual traditions, especially when they don't understand them. It can be useful to point out differences for the purpose of explaining concepts.
@Giantcrabz3 ай бұрын
Forgiveness is not limited to Abrahamic faiths, it's just inherent to the idea of right and wrong. For karma to make sense at all even within Buddhism implies that the universe is essentially keeping track of the wrongs that people do and ensuring they face consequences in this or another life. "Fruition" is just another way to say that debt has been paid. Justice requires some sort of transaction or you just have nihilism or relativism.
@sunyata49743 ай бұрын
Buddhism describes natural laws. Nothing can defy natural laws.
@Bongwater333 ай бұрын
You cant just say sorry and your bad karma is gone, like if you stand in the road and get hit( unwise behavior), saying sorry wont heal your injuries, but treatment and healthy living will heal you over time, just as good works or correct behavior will clear bad karma over time.
@rafaelgabrielgarlinidal-bo94963 ай бұрын
Forgiveness doesn't make sense. First of all it's the opposite of grudge, which also doesn't make sense by itself. Grudging is an empty pleasure and it's not corrected by forgiveness. It's only corrected by a higher transcendental pleasure such as a connection with God and the love of this world and the beyond.
@Mocking_Bird_853 ай бұрын
Is anything Buddhist? Forgiveness is absolutely necessary. Someone who "understands the Truth" understands that not everyone "sees what they see". In a sense, you do hold power over the suffering of a "wrong doer". A true act of selflessness might involve forgiving an unconscious person. This can be a powerful teaching as well as an opportunity to learn more about yourself.
@d.l.loonabide99813 ай бұрын
You can be raised in Christian tradition, the doctrine still doesn't make any sense.
@Giantcrabz3 ай бұрын
I was raised Presbyterian and am now atheist and it makes sense to me
@wordscapes56903 ай бұрын
I do not forgive. It is not my place to untangle the kamma of people who choose to luxuriate in their own ignorance. For me, all I can say is I have zero desire to hold a grudge. If that helps someone deal with what they have done to me, so be it. If it does not help them, this has zero to do with me. If we truly understood the implications of the word “forgive” people would see that not only is it pointless to do so but it is also impossible.
@Giantcrabz3 ай бұрын
It's not impossible, I do it all the time
@wordscapes56903 ай бұрын
@@Giantcrabz If only you are doing the forgiveness, what you are actually doing is forgetting the wrong done to you. This is actually a selfish act, as it is only about you. It does nothing about the wrong committed. It is, in its essence, an act that benefits only you. This not forgiveness. This is excusing. Excusing, and not clinging to grudges - yes, all possible. Forgiveness? This requires that you assist in the mending of the wrong, both to you and to the wrong doer. And if the wrong doer does not wish to participate, all you can do is forget the hurt.
@Giantcrabz3 ай бұрын
@@wordscapes5690 it's not excusing as long as I am the victim, it's just forgiveness. I have the right to demand restorative justice, but not the obligation. If someone steals from me and I intentionally choose to let them go and never press charges or anything, do I now have some moral duty to track them down and somehow reform them to make them stop being a thief in general? That would be supererogatory. Forgiveness is between the victim and the transgressor. It's not selfish, it's my choice. If anything, it's selfless because most people do things like that out of desperation or ignorance.
@wordscapes56903 ай бұрын
@@Giantcrabz I did not say you need to track down everyone who harms you. I said, whether you track them down or not, your forgiveness is a nice gesture, but it is not forgiveness. Even if you elevate yourself to status of a divine being who is faultless and flawless in every way, even then , your forgiveness would still be a gesture. It is not possible to forgive someone because you cannot possibly negate the kamma that accrues after the wrongdoing. All you can do is allow yourself not to react to the wrongdoing, and to let it pass, and to let the wrongdoer pass. If you would like to call this forgiveness, this is fine. But to me, forgiveness is something far more than this. If someone says to you, “I forgive you.” How does it make you feel? You might feel shame, anger, superiority, self righteousness, sadness, humiliation…. these are not emotions you want to foster. And once you have said “I forgive” to someone else, how do you feel? Has the hurt disappeared? Has the damage been healed? Say nothing. Let it be as if the wrongdoing did not happen. Deal with the consequences through good samadhi. Personally, I have no wish to engage in this very disturbing and stormy act called forgiveness. For me, there is never anything to forgive. Forgiveness is for people who harbor grudges. I am done with that. Forgive me ;)
@andrewtom84072 ай бұрын
In one of your earlier videos on Karma, it was mentioned that the Buddha indicated that intention is more of a factor in karma than the actual action. On that note, forgiveness is indeed an action and whatever intention is associated with such action may have an impact on karma. Karma is so abstract and complicated that probably no one other than the Buddhas truly understand it. From another perspective, genuine forgiveness is a practice for non-attachment. The Buddha often advocated for performing good deeds without dwelling on rewards and merits. For that matter, one needs to wonder if forgiveness is included in the "right action" of the eightfold path.
@DougsDharma2 ай бұрын
Yes, I think genuine forgiveness is a practice of non-attachment and equanimity.
@indi_prime3 ай бұрын
Original sin can be described as imperfection, or separation from God. The apple of the knowledge of good and evil caused Adam and Eve see the world through judgement resulting in separation from the rest of creation and from God. Forgiveness of sin represents the return to oneness and in Christ's teachings that oneness was revealed as unconditional, agapic, love - the force that binds creation and God. The new covenant, through Christ, revealed a path to redemption in this life, through repenting and attoning for sins and accepting the holy spirit, the aspect of the trinity which sanctifies those who have become separated from God and guides them back to Him by following the path of Christ back to the Father, completing the trinity and returning humanity to oneness. Christ's death and resurrection on the cross represent this process, where all sins can be forgiven and all can be redeemed in this life by following the path of Christ, by sacrificing your life in service to others death itself can be transcended, one can walk through hell unburned and be reunited in eternal life. Hell isn't a 'punishment' for sin as false dogma claims, rather it's an aspect of creation that burns away imperfections leaving only agapic love remaining, which cannot be destroyed. Christ's death had the metaphyiscal consequence of rendering karma obsolete as a method of purification - where consequences for actions transcend lifetimes - rather the spark of agapic love that all are born with needn't be recycled if it is allowed to burn away sin in this life.
@Fascistbeast27 күн бұрын
It’s not complicated even if you’re atheist. 👍 There are studies forgiveness is better for mental stress levels-letting go of grudges or anger etc. Or leaving an abusive relationship-letting go Sin etc can also mean mistakes.