Is Geothermal Heating and Cooling Worth the Cost? Heat Pumps Explained

Is Geothermal Heating and Cooling Worth the Cost? Heat pumps Explained. Go to brilliant.org/U... to sign up for free. And also, the first 200 people will get 20% off their annual premium membership. When building a house, homeowners have several ways to power their heating and cooling systems, like oil, natural gas, or electricity. But there’s another option right below our feet. You can install geothermal heating and cooling in your home, but is it worth the cost? And how does it hold up?
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#geothermal #sustainability #undecidedwithmattferrell

[@UndecidedMF]

Do you want a geothermal heating/cooling setup for your home? I know I do. And to learn more about geothermal energy, check out my other video on the topic: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y3nLlYVvjrd6rqs

[@roxter299roxter7]

Could you do a show on combination solar panels? I hear they could be 80% more efficient than regular solar panels

[@homegrown241]

Here in The Netherlands we have a company called Solar Freezer. This is what i am getting installed this summer. You should check this out

[@ZookeeperJohnG]

YES :D

[@TarSands403]

Do you list where you get the sources from these videos??

[@williamclark6466]

Yes, I would love to switch to GSHP & hybrid/combination solar panels & wind, with energy storage, vehicle charging, etc. I just need to find the money.

[@stevevet3652]

My wife and I have been looking into a Geothermal heat pump system but couldn't find an explanation to suit our understanding of how they work. Now we know. Thank you.

[@mikedixon8741]

Your video touched on just about all my experiences with my gshp geothermal system. We purchased our home in 2002 in SE Virginia with its original open loop geothermal system now 20 years old. Loved it until 2013 when I walked into my garage to find the well pump had blown to roof off itself because the debris in the water over the years had clogged the return line and the pressure destroyed the pump. Crazy estimates to replace the pump and drill a new return line left us still with a 31 year old open loop system. We opted for a new closed loop system that is AMAZING! We had 5 wells drilled instead of the 4 the system called for and they are each 200 feet deep. No debris to deal with in a closed loop system and much quieter since the pump is much smaller. I will never have another heating/cooling system other than geothermal. Great video!

[@mikedixon8741]

@Zombie Eric Harris The cost of the new closed loop system was 18k and some change. Overall it's been the best investment since we've owned our home. Next up is having our crawl space encapsulated.

[@mikedixon8741]

@Zombie Eric Harris I'm not so sure I would change a thing in how mine was put in place. My salesman sold me the system, the company already had a well drilling company they used, who not only drilled the wells but installed the loops of tubing, and then connected all of the tubing into the manifold that attaches to the unit. It was "one stop shopping " and it limits the number of persons who have their fingers in the equation. If one subcontractor messes up on their step it can destroy the whole system, and with one person (or contractor) in charge, anything goes wrong it's on them. Good luck with whatever you decide!

[@colincameron1878]

Warning: I invested the "Ferrari" of geo thermal systems a few years ago at a cost of about $40,000K for a closed vertical loop system. The system worked great providing cheap heating and cooling for about 3 years, and then just stopped. When they came to investigate, apparently the pipes had snapped because the bedrock rock under ground had shifted. To repair would have required a reinstallation of the pipes which would almost have been as pricey as the original installation, so needless to say I ended up getting a high efficiency propane system. I also was told this is a common problem with these systems, and found many horror stories on line. I wish I had known this before the original installation. Buyer beware.

[@WT7005]

I wonder if more flexible tubing would help prevent the pipe snapping you experienced. I suppose if too flexible, the hose could crimp and impede the coolant flow.

[@danielsen116]

Sorry to hear this, someone really tried to take advantage of you. Full re-installation wouldn’t have been necessary.

[@irregulargamer1352]

@@WT7005 it probably would have gotten pinched and stopped regardless

[@holger_p]

It's a warning valid for areas with tectonic activities. But it should have been known in advance, and the flat collectors should have got preference over a deep whole.

[@Grubiantoll]

Aither geologist fucked up or they didnt employ one, in aither case that fuckup should be on them

[@martinsmith8747]

I installed Geothermal a couple years after adding solar energy to the home, my overall cost structure went from $4500 per "year" to heat/cool/appliances/Electronics/and gasoline down to $1000 per year for all that including an electric car. Sure investment was high, but I am planning on retirement having lower bills. So far it's working.

[@SilvaDreams]

Well good thing you are retiring soon because after about 10 years those solar panels are going to be working at half their original output and if they are still functioning after 15 and make it to their pay out life time of 20 year it'll be a miracle but it'll be your kids or the next owners problem then. Also don't expect that electric car to last more than 6 years, maybe 8 before you are paying essentially what you put into it to replace the batteries. (At least 20 grand) Green energy isn't nearly as green as you think, solar panels use a LOT of coal and other "dirty" processes to make them but never turn about their carbon footprint they make in their creation.

[@dans5534]

@@SilvaDreams Thank you for some common sense in this comment section. 👏

[@Aereto]

@@SilvaDreams Even if at the point green energy sourcers are enough to self-sustain the manufacturing, the materials require mining and refining. And even then, materials are subject to degredation, whether it is mechanical or electrical.

[@TheAunvre]

@@SilvaDreams "after about 10 years those solar panels are going to be working at half their original output" • Most panels warranty 90% at 10 years, and 80% at 25 years... "don't expect that electric car to last more than 6 years, maybe 8" • Teslas *worst* warranty level is "8 years or 160,000 km, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period." and they're not going to risk having them fail within warranty periods, so you'll get substantially longer than that. Independent sites list it at 300,000 to 500,000 on average, with some test vehicles having 150,000 km with 90% efficiency still. "solar panels use a LOT of coal and other "dirty" processes to make them but never turn about their carbon footprint" • Boomer misinformation easily disproven with a quick google search. The manufacturing threshold was passed a long time ago, and solar currently sits at 5-20% of the carbon footprint of gas or coal (depending on if/what carbon capture technology is being used by them, and which of the two you look at)

[@santiagoperez2094]

@@SilvaDreams you know that top modern solar panels guarantee 90% functionality in 30 years right?

[@baccusx13]

One of my internship as a Stationary Power Engineer was in a hospital that used a geothermal closed loop system to save energy and even after they discovered that an underground river was partly leaking the energy out, they were able make some good use of it. Thanks for the video and I can only wish to see more houses with geothermal systems in the future. :)

[@Embur12]

Had a home built in 94. My builder tried to talk me out of installing an $11k system. It paid for itself in roughly 5 years. It's a fantastic a/c unit and keeps your home steady temperature in winter. Only draw back is you might want a wood burning stove for those super cold days, like we get in Michigan winters, because the system is sized to 10 degrees on the cold side. On a side note my builder threw his closed loop in a pond to save on the installation costs and loves his system. In the dead of winter my worst heating Bill was about $130, while my builders ng furnace was costing him $300 a month. The house was 1800 square foot ranch with a finished basement and stayed super cool all summer long. I thing electric bills for cooling were $30 to $50 a month. If you can do your own trenching or have a pond, your installation costs could be seriously reduced.

[@jamescassidy5797]

We live in southern Wisconsin and our closed loop, horizontal system has been great but it has struggled when we have a polar vortex or long stretches of cold temps in the teens and below.

[@Embur12]

@@jamescassidy5797 yup they're sized to be efficient, so you definitely want a wood burner or something else for backup.

[@martinmcquaide4807]

I think like most homes / builders, undersized systems save the build cost. The builders pocket the savings, the home owners stuck with a unit that won't perform when temperatures are extreme or the unit ages. I installed for years, if the home required a 2.5 ton HP, I bumped to 3 ton with at least a 10kw strip. If 3 ton was close I jumped to 4 ton, or zoned it if was a 2 story. Just installed a propane gas furnace with a HP, in my rental home and t-stat set to 40 degrees. 40 or above HP will give you all the heat the home needs, below 40 burns propane. Very efficient and can get into single digits and the house is comfortable. If I build more homes I'm investing in premium windows, closed cell foam insulation and a ground loop HP with a gas fireplace, as a auxiliary form of heat. I live in the land of retirement homes at the Delaware beaches. Older people like heat. Me too.

[@kirkellis4329]

How many square feet of area would a pond need to be ? I'm wondering if I put in a 10'x40' lap pool that was only 4' feet deep, and ran the piping under a vinyl pool liner would that be of any use for a heat pump ? Southern California desert so more a cooling climate than a heating one. A pool that would hold 1300 gallons and it takes 8.33btu to raise each gallon 1F, so 11,000btu for each degree of heat it absorbs. A 36,000btu/h heat pump would transfer 3.3F per hour to the pool ? Doesn't seem right.

[@Embur12]

@@jamescassidy5797 That's what the wood burner is for, those extreme cold days!

[@MrMorgsan]

Great pacing in this video Matt! This is common practice in Sweden since many years now. We often utilize boreholes of up to 150 meters depth in a closed loop system. This kind of system can be as effective as 8 to 1 and doesn't rely so much on ambient temperatures.

[@UndecidedMF]

Really interesting! Thanks for sharing.

[@fiskebent]

We switched from oil to geothermal 2 years ago and it's great. Greener, cheaper and actually heats the house up better.

[@JesseStJohn-sv9dq]

I live in upstate NY and have a 2600 Sq ft house. My geothermal system through dandelion is $ 44,000 for a 6 ton system before incentives and $23000 after incentives. This also includes a 80 gallon residential geothermal hot water tank.

[@RaumBances]

I was really confused by the oversimplified diagram when you said "the heat pump compresses the liquid." Without showing the refrigerant loop as what is being compressed, that really threw me off. I was thinking that would need to be one hell of a compressor. :) Thanks for the video. As always very informative and well put together.

[@UndecidedMF]

Yeah, I may have oversimplified things.

[@maxmintz511]

Liquids aren’t compressible. Just saying.

[@reeftank706]

@@UndecidedMF Yeah it we really needed to show the refrigerant to water heat exchanger that acts as the condenser or evaporator depending on heating or cooling mode. I know how this works already so it was good enough for me, but the diagrams looked weird. I paused at 2:38 to put this out here :)

[@ibanix2]

@@maxmintz511 That's not *exactly* true, they just have very very small compressibility compared to gases. Even solids can be compressed, at an even smaller amount.

[@Mountain-Man-3000]

Yep. That animation is just plain wrong.

[@stoneygreek]

i installed Geothermal closed loop in my house when i built it in 2005. 4000sq ft ranch, 25,000 install cost. average bill per month is 250 year round. that includes heating and cooling my 36x40 garage.

[@christophervanzetta]

That's pretty expensive

[@jacobvriesema6633]

@@christophervanzetta for a 4000sqft house and a garage that seems pretty good to me, but I suppose that depends on what’s heating or cooling your house. Propane is much more expensive than natural gas, and electric heating is kind of expensive too. I’ve lived in apartments with 1000sqft and paid $80/month in gas during the winter. If I scaled that to 4000 sqft that $250/mo seems good to me.

[@stoneygreek]

@@christophervanzetta your right. It was put in in 2005 when Geothermal was rather rare in michigan. its much cheaper now. However it did include two 200 gallon water heaters and the electrical panel.

[@StripperMonkey]

I pay the same for two natural gas units and two AC coils (central air) in Iowa. Each unit cost $1200 installed. same square footage. Sorry to say but it will be the next home owner that will recoup the cost of your Geothermal

[@treggliebler6237]

Had a closed loop system in Michigan. Loved it, wouldn't put any other type of system in a home of mine. Paid for itself in 3 years because the cost of propane nearley tripled after we installed it. It's more comfortable than traditional forced air too because it doesn't blow as hard.

[@TravelersWarden]

Can you share how much you paid for it? In New England and I'm being told it would be like $150K

[@jacobstrutner8232]

@@TravelersWarden shouldn't be more than $20k or they are lying

[@TravelersWarden]

@@jacobstrutner8232 This guy wasn't quoting me for a system. he had just put in our new air source mini splits. Just telling me the cost in the area for geotherm.

[@reck0n3r]

@@TravelersWarden No way it's $150k, even if it was a vertical loop, which is the most expensive setup for geothermal, it shouldn't be more than 40-45k. Even the "high end" price on a closed horizontal loop seems to be about 30-35k.

[@TravelersWarden]

@@reck0n3r You're absolutely right. I forgot about these comments and I had gone back and checked with my HVAC guy - it was $150K for a 20K square foot rich person's house on the beach. So....that makes more sense.

[@phaseshifter3d455]

I asked about geothermal when my house was being built. I came to the conclusion that I'd first need to be rich to save on energy costs lol.

[@buy_large_mansions]

If you want to save on energy costs look at heat conservation. There are many things you can do to reduce energy costs that will find it pointless even considering a heat pump.

[@Kevin-eh7md]

what a massive bullshit...

[@masonlynch1793]

Just find whatever is the cheapest heating unit to run and use it.

[@blessedarmadillo8257]

How much did you spend on your last car or truck? Did you recoup part of that cost through savings over the years (did the car or truck gain in value or lose value)?

[@bluegrass4840]

@@blessedarmadillo8257 if its a truck it actually may have gained if it was bought used. I've had mine for over a year now bought it used and it's worth more now. Used car market is insane at the moment. Same goes for my wife's Jeep Grand Cherokee.

[@OldMotorcycleAdventures]

I had no idea this was even a thing in the US until my wife said her coworker from our state has geothermal heat. And going through your cost breakdown, it really seems like a nobrainer to me. We moved into our house, and had to have our boiler replaced within 5 months. That was about $4500. Now, all the cast iron pipes are rotting out, and it will be no less than 30k to refit the entire house. Some of that is asbestos abatement, but most is just how high the cost is. With a price tag that high for pretty much a "brand new" installation of a oil fired boiler, I can't imagine why I would go that route!

[@michaelhatfull3305]

Inverter heat pumps are just as efficient and some even more especially with Ductless finally booming in the US. take a look at those products as well.

[@Davesworld7]

@@michaelhatfull3305 Do you know what is meant by an inverter compressor system? It has nothing to do with the type of liquid or gas being moved by the compressor, only an inverter that varies the speed of the compressor no matter what the compressor is pumping which includes geothermal heat transfer as well if someone wanted to make an inverter geothermal compressor. They are more efficient but a little over 10% more efficient at best, not 50%. But the other reasons with comfort, constant temperature maintenance, less inrush current so the lights don't dim and the compressor doesn't make a lot of noise for a second are enough to convince me, just a nicer experience. The benefits of an inverter system are that the system starts up at 36%(depending on mfr and model) compressor speed thus reducing the inrush current as many houses with heat pumps cannot start the compressor with solar battery storage as the inrush current(many times the current required to run it once spinning) is too high for the amount the battery bank can discharge for that first half an rpm of the motor. In an inverter driven compressor system, the compressor is always on, it does not cycle and can keep a more constant temperature in the house as it gracefully varies the speed up and down based on what is needed at any given time so the positives alone make it more comfortable and less distracting whether it saves money or not, you would not get that constant cycling where the lights dim for a fraction of a second and make more noise starting like a an aircraft engine ramping up. The reason why it at least saves SOME energy is that the compressor doesn't cycle on to full and then to off and then to full every 2 degree change so it is utilized to only what it needs at any given moment, nothing more, nothing less, just constant temperature and no cycling. Where I live, I have a 3 ton heat pump as a packaged unit on the roof at 16 SEER. The only inverter packaged system is made by Bosch and the 3 ton model is 18 SEER and the 5 ton model is 19 seer so there is SOME gain in efficiency, 12% if everyone is telling the truth but not earth shattering. We are still talking about inverter compressors in conventional refrigerant systems. The same improvement could be had in a geothermal system which is already more efficient than conventional refrigeration by a good margin as I hinted at earlier but I am sure the execution and location will vary this a lot. In the summer it often reaches 120 outside and I have seen 122 and to keep the house at 75 degrees, it runs over 23 hours per day and this is an R19 insulated house at only 1300+ square feet. The maximum temp these things are rated to cool at is 125 degrees. The low temperature at dawn is just under 90 sometimes but it can get below 80 on some summer nights. My summer bills are around 300 dollars to keep the house at 75 and this is with a 16 SEER rating, it would save 35 dollars a month for the 18 SEER inverter unit on paper at least. I would still use an inverter for the many benefits in constant temperature, variable compressor speed with no cycling irritation and being able to start the darn thing from battery storage if you have solar. The temptation to convert to either a ducted or unducted split system is certainly there. I use a hospital grade air filter, the ductless system would turn that into several filters but it would be easy to add mini in in the ceiling exchanger in the garage though. I am very interested in ductless just for this reason. There is a limit to how many you can connect to a compressor but I am sure the options are growing by the day.

[@DennyMelanson1]

We live in northeastern Canada and have been looking into a geothermal system for new construction, would love to include it in the plans, but the costs are a huge deterrent.

[@Food4thought1234]

When I bought my house 10 years ago I was looking into this. When the estimate was 25g. I was like, I can wait. Maybe now the price has dropped. Plus I’m still renting it out. So I figured it would be no real benefit until I actually live in it. But I would love this.

[@AhmedAshraf-pd7mu]

I think you can charge the residents for the power savings I mean they would literally lose nothing. If they now pay X for the heating, they would still pay that X.

[@rcmrcm3370]

@@AhmedAshraf-pd7mu trying to convince them would not be easy.

[@AhmedAshraf-pd7mu]

@@rcmrcm3370 yeah, some people are not rational enough, but some would be happy to do that Personally if I were them I'd actually be glad. Lowering my carbon emissions without doing any effort from my side or any extra expenses!

[@fredricnynas9860]

Here in Finland is normal nowadays to drill a hole between 100-350 meters for your house, the water in those depts ranges from 3-7 degrees Celsius all year round. Almost every new house uses geothermal heating, the state gives homeowners up to 4000€ if they change their heatingsystem from oil to geothermal.

[@TheXymelin]

@@daviddavids2884 each region ground thermal temps are different. Because of that, geothermal isnt solution for everyone. In video he showed 10-15*c temps. Thats realy high ones. Here in Baltics, these temps are about 5-8*c

[@W1ldSm1le]

3-7 wow that's chilly! 11-13 is normal where I live (new england)

[@SuperS05]

@@TheXymelin Using Geothermal in this context is terrible and is an industry failure. Thats why we use the term ground source HP.

[@palleericsson8939]

Same here in Sweden,Stockholm , I have a one vertical 200meter hole for my 200 sqm (2000Sqf) house .giving me 7 deg. celsuis in okt and in april it is down to 4-5 degres I use it for heating and hot water. I never use AC and I newer put any heat back into to hole. During summer when I dont use it. the temp goes back to 7 deg, Its because ground water surounding the hole moves the cold water away and replaces it with new 7 deg water My total consumtion is 13400kwh /year incl all electricity

[@davidaustin6962]

They do this in one of the counties in southern new jersey, all the houses have ground-source. The state doesn't give much incentive but the ground water is super high that they don't have to. They drill down vertical (it's like soft mud to 50 ft down) takes a couple hours, and the holes immediately fill with ground water, then they drop in their loops, you can do it on a postage stamp sized lot. Lowest average heating and cooling bills in the country.

[@juha2031]

This is considered one of the best methods to have a heating in one's home here in Finland. Only downside is higher cost at the beginning but in a long run it has stood the test of time.

[@attilahorvat1500]

Great video, but you missed the probe ground source option, here in Europe it's the most common solution which does not require too much space in your garden. I have two probes of 100m length, each of them in 90m depth, you need only a borehole, not much space, I use it for heating, cooling and sanitary warm water, In my case the calculation is about 7-8 years to be even compared to natural gas/elecricity, if I would use other heating/cooling solutions. And as you mentioned closed systems are the best for the long run

[@freethebirds3578]

The house I grew up in was built in 1975 and had a heat pump. We also had a supplemental oil furnace. In a middle Atlantic state south of the Mason Dixon line, we needed that furnace every year, but Dad always resisted. I believe our apartment complex (northern midwest) uses them too, because the forced air we have in the winter is NEVER warm. We can't have space heaters, so we shiver all winter long. If we ever build our own house, we will have a heat pump (for the aircon) and a fireplace or a woodstove.

[@rt9934]

Great video, thanks. I live in Europe (@52 deg N) and I have recently built a new house. Due to limitations on site size, I installed an air to water heat pump as the sole heat source. I am really pleased with the result. Complete house has underfloor heating. There is currently a serious drive here in Europe to get away completely from fossil fuels and reduce CO2 emissions. Perhaps this air to water system could be an option for people in the US also, particularly in Urban areas where availability of ground for Geothermal is severely limited.

[@morpher44]

idea: Make a smaller geothermal system that brings the radiator up behind your kitchen refrigerator. Switch on its pump and fan, and behind the refrigerator would be a nice stable COLD area. Most people have their fridge in a wooden "hot" box and during the summer months, the compressor is running all the time because of this arrangement. But if you could bring coldness behind there, the fridge would not need a lot of power. It would see a stable temp. The average fridge uses from 1 to 2Kwhrs per day. A modest little geothermal install might bring this down a lot. DIY!!!

[@silvercoulter]

my fridge gets air from the front under the door

[@morpher44]

@@silvercoulter and if that place was a stable temp, it would not need to draw as much power.

[@cellularmitosis2]

Great video! One minor nit: I’ve never heard of water or anti-freeze referred to as “refrigerant”. Typically that term is used for fluids which go through a phase change in a compression loop.

[@proodmore822]

R718 refrigerant = water/steam

[@jason76065]

Yeah the video maker definitely shouldn't have referred to water as a refrigerant even though technically yes it is, it confuses the hell out of most people

[@sprockkets]

@@jason76065 No, technically the loop does not go under any phase changes. So yes, he's wrong and no refrigerant circulates in the loop, only water or water plus glycol or another antifreeze.

[@SunshineTheLover]

water is the original refrigerant and because the pressure changes in the system it handles phase changes pretty well (ive worked on hvac systems) eta: the earliest ac used water to transfer heat and cool air

[@maximthemagnificent]

What would be the economics of multiple homeowners installing a single, larger underground loop for all of them (while maintaining separate heating units)?

[@Nikkeftw]

Eggs and baskets (?) What happens to your effeciency when your neighbor fails you? I dont know, but worth a thought. Im sure the cost will be near the same as if you split the cost, but now you only have to worry about yourself.

[@thewallstreetjournal5675]

A leak in any of the residents heat pump would effect everyone's heating system. To have serval people on the same circuit you would need a branch controller such as what is used in commercial Variable Refrigerant Volume VAV systems. It is unlikely that one landlord would wish to supply heat to many tenants in such a manner since the cost of any geothermal system is quite high. and the length of the piping circuit would need to be multiplied for every person drawing from the same heat source. The advantage of such a system is that a person could have the benefits of a heat pump even in a very cold climate and potentially save money over the cost of running miles of gas pipe to a remote location.

[@adlerweb]

@@thewallstreetjournal5675 Well, a short in your neighbors installation also affects your electricity. That's why we use fuses. And there are similar devices for these kind of installations. Not sure about US, but in EU some cites provide centralized district heating based on geothermal systems.

[@DanielBellot]

To avoid maintenance problems you can just share the installation cost but have a separate loop for each homeowner. My second option would be coordinated maintenance, which can be a headache. I guess it depends on the number of homeowners.

[@peteranon8455]

I'm thinking it looks good on paper to have multiple people on the same system, but would essentially create all the problems with having an HOA.

[@crazypict]

When I watch this video and read the comments, I am amazed at how different house heating is done in different parts of the world. Here in Sweden, many households, the vast majority, use geothermal heat. That is, a hole about 100 m deep down in the earth (normally solid rock). It is usually a few meters of soil, but then there are often rocks below the soil that can be drilled in and provide good heating. It is a simple system that provides very good economy. The reason that rock is a good heatsouce is that there are normaly cracks in the rock that transports water and heat with the water. Soil does not have the same water transport mechanims. Almost no one uses oil or direct electricity to heat the houses. As mentioned in the video, geothermal systems are expensive to invest in and you can get some tax reductions for the investment. But even without the tax reduction, geothermal heat pays off. It is easy to drill and the hole only takes one day to drill and then all earthworks are complete. A system like this costs approx 10-20.000 USD which is a lot of money. But heating a house in a cold climate costs a lot. The return of the investment is done in 5-10 years. So nearly everybody use this kind of heating system 😶‍🌫This kind of sytem can also be used to cool a house as a normal A/C system.

[@usbiv223]

On paper it sounds amazing. In practice I can see issues with population density and hose materials (I’m in earthquake country) but seems handy. Here’s a possibility stupid question: why not build a giant heat sink on the coast for the whole neighborhood to use? Absent scales of efficiency, this does t seem doable for cooling in an apartment building. Nut, then again, I’m pretty dumb.

[@zeedstun891]

in earthquake areas, id give this a hard pass. For city cooling, you could just jump off the tap water line. The weakness there is for large buildings over 4 floors, they may lose alot of cooling capacity on its way up because of the heat from the lower floors and radiating off the walls.

[@carpetclimber4027]

First step for a house is proper insulation. Fiber glass or something similar inside all outer walls, also on top of the inner ceiling at the attic. Triple glassed windows are standard where I live (Sweden) as windows are the biggest problem for insulation. A heat exchanger on the wall is huge as it can both heat and cool a big living area. It's quite insufficient if you get really cold temperatures though (after -20 to -25 it starts to struggle). If you go for geothermal heating drilling deep into the ground, you have to do some background checks where the soil ends and the core starts. It can get very pricey if you're unlucky and is a gamble. It's more efficient than the linear way (ground heat), which also requires some big space of course. Both are very good investments in the long run. I personally would never live in a house without a stove with a hotplate, both for heating and cooking if the electricity goes out. It's not fun to die just because you're not prepared for a disaster scenario.

[@mdsloads]

Built a new house in 2008 with geothermal, would never do anything different but the name of the game is insulate , insulate, insulate then whatever system you have will shine.

[@jamesgarrison6430]

I want to build my house with geothermal and like a solar roof to run it

[@shadownoobnoobslayer5424]

add to dat septic and rainwater cisterns and satellite internet/tv/phone and u off grid :)

[@kirkland5674]

Spend your money on insulation and triple pane windows. HVac is a non-issue if your house is well insulated and tight. You can add solar if you want, but even that takes a long time to pay back if your house is well insulated and therefore not using much juice.

[@bodhisfattva7462]

@@shadownoobnoobslayer5424 rainwater cisterns wont work for going 100% off grid everywhere but they can help in all but the most arid locations...also in places like where I live in Montana a solar system isnt enough on its own to power a house in the winter unless you have an oversized array and like sweeping snow and ice off it...

[@Valuiskihh]

Just bought a house with C class power efficiency. With geothermal heat system. Warm floor and you get Hot water too. Also plan to install solar panels as soon as sell apartement and have some spare money after paying for house 😁

[@jaredhowe9970]

Living in Southern California my next system will be a heat pump due to local regulations and my solar system. Once I move back to the Great Lakes I will for sure install geothermal!

[@ahnilatedahnilated7703]

I would love to have a geothermal system. I would also love a house that has R50 insulation in the walls and floor with R60 in the ceiling. Then I could heat my place with a toaster. :)

[@bodhisfattva7462]

hey man you are gonna destroy the planet with your fossil fuel burning toaster you should use mirrors to focus the sun to toast stuff.

[@DUCKDUCKGOISMUCHBETTER]

@@bodhisfattva7462 😂👌

[@garylarabee824]

I installed our geothermal heating/cooling system in 2003. The system is a closed loop copper tubing buried seven feet in an excavation 50' x 70'. That equates to a 5 ton unit. The medium used in the copper tubing to transfer the heat is the same gas/liquid refrigerant that is in my kitchen's refrigerator. The system has suffered no problems in the 19+ years of operation. The air handler portion of the system requires regular air filter changes ... and that's it for maintenance. The original cost for everything was $14,355. In today's dollars that would equate to significantly more $$$. It took over 11 years of geothermal use to gain back the $14k.

[@scottmohrman]

You don’t need a large expensive system in a passive house.

[@davidmccarthy6061]

But those are very rare. Most homes are many decades old. Everything built in the last 30 years is by the developer intent on packing in as many as possible into the space they have.

[@damienmitchell9828]

In scotland ground source just doesnt work, companys started to refuse to sell them without and electric boiler as a backup. As we found after around 4 years there was just no heat left in the ground.

[@Stettafire]

Ja, I'm not that much further south from you. I was quoted £20k for a start, and the rest of it was pretty terrible. I had to go gas in the end. Cost £7k

[@EmanuelQ3]

Thanks, great video. I'll surely look into this as an option when I buy a house.

[@williamlowry8663]

We have a closed loop system. 8 wells down 150 ft each GTREAT thing we did over 20 yrs ago. We replaced a a inside furnace it is saving us each yr. Last summer we added solar panels saving us more.

[@marcusoutdoors4999]

Thanks, a very useful video. As with all these technologies, they’ll work for some and not others, so great to understand what could be right for specific situations.

[@ascienceguy-5109]

The answer to the question is yes. In 2005 I installed a 6 ton ground source heat pump in my home near Denver Colorado, which needs both considerable heating and cooling, but I did not have central cooling. The system has worked flawlessly. The loop consisted of six wells 180 feet deep connected in parallel. Groundwater was encountered at 50 feet, which kept the decrease in well temperature to an insignificant 5° F drop over the heating season. the heat pump is mostly powered by rooftop solar PV. together I reduced my grid energy (natural gas plus electricity) consumption by

[@clearthedek]

Matt, first of all great video and love your channel. Was wondering if you could actually run the heat pump from your solar panels on a typical house? Wasn’t sure exactly how much electricity the heat pump would require and if this would be practical?

[@spencerwilton5831]

Theoretically it's entirely possible. A small domestic heat pump for an average U.K. home draws about 3kw, well within the capabilities of a well sized solar system. Of course, solar power doesn't always coincide with the need to run the heat pump, but averaged over a year and with a good sized solar set up you could generate more power than you use. It's likely though that you would be selling power in the summer, and buying it back in the winter.

[@Sum_SpaceX]

It is what I do. I had the heatpump and wells installed first and noticed I was spending somewhat more on electricity. Next year I installed solar panels. Both had a 30% tax rebate. the combination is very efficient.

[@douglasthompson9070]

Back in 2005 I got a quote for a new 5 ton total(2 ton/3ton dual unit) HVAC Seer 18 unit for $14K and a Geothermal 5 ton horizontal line unit for $24K on a new construction home. I couldn't justify a 10 grand price hike for the Geothermal unit. So I went with the SEER 18 unit. There was no tax credit at that time.

[@Copratra]

I stumbled upon this video and I'm more and more convinced that I want a geothermal system for our house. However, I want to combine it with solar energy system so the system would run off the grid, thus saving both energy and money. The only obstacle now is money, as I'm convinced the system is very much doable as it is. Thank you for the informative video!

[@zaaz1471]

We're working with Dandelion to get geothermal installed now! heating and cooling, converting from oil baseboard heat to forced air.. and still worth it!

[@gravitaslost]

I'd love one of these, but as home ownership is becoming less and less attainable for the vast majority of people around the world, whether or not we want one of these systems for our fictional dream homes is largely irrelevant. As usual, subsidies for things like this are basically tax rebates for the wealthy.

[@prismspectrum1600]

Located at central Illinois, using Geo, for 18yrs, my electric bills are average $130 in summer and $180 in winter.

[@jmf5246]

1994 gas heated home in Rochester ny (2.7k sq ft). Furnace went. Geothermal bid was $40k for a closed loop system. Replaced my furnace with another natural gas.

[@coachhannah2403]

GSHS store the energy differential needed for the next season! In summer, you store heat in the ground. In winter, you store "cold."

[@65csx83]

Excellent cursory overview. The system I acquired back in '95 utilized my existing well as a source and needed only a return well whose cost was significantly cheaper than a regular well since it merely received outflow. Any of the other type systems impress me as cost prohibitive and risky still. It also seems the land used the in ground structure would be sacrificed for any other use and there may be some environmental trade offs to be considered.

[@mikegrant8490]

Seems like the simplest and possibly cheapest method is to dig two holes about six feet apart, drop in two large tanks a few feet below grade, drop into the tanks a continuous 1000 foot coil of PEX, make up the connections between the heat pump system and test for continuity, then fill each tank with water. One hot, one cold. Slushy ice evolves in the cold one, 135° water in the other. I saw this on an episode of This Old House In a demonstration house built in South Carolina. The earth separated the two tanks and provided adequate insulation from the other. The large house did use a commercial chiller for the cold side due to the size.

[@ChemistTea]

Interesting, definitely something I'm considering. Especially now that propane gas costs are insane. I had to pay about $450 for 1.5 months this winter. I've stopped using as much heat, because at this point blankets are much better solution than paying for propane.

[@rcpmac]

Hi chemist, I believe you would be satisfied with ductless mini-split heat pumps. Developments in that technology has led to effectiveness to minus -17 degrees Fahrenheit and a substantial savings in system cost.

[@gaykosmos8456]

Ask my mom and stepfather and you'll get a resounding "YES!" I grew up on probably the largest working farm in south central Kentucky. My stepfather and his father built the house well and it was well insulated, but we had only a wood burning stove in the basement to heat the entire house, and only an attic fan for cooling. Cutting trees and hauling wood was a lot of work. When I went to college and moved out, they replaced it with a closed loop geothermal HVAC system and water heater. There was plenty of land, so the company dug three 50 foot trenches that were 6 to 10 feet deep (went in in the early to mid '90s, so details are a little fuzzy) across our garden and into the adjacent field. Since the house was in a rural area and the geothermal system became their only source of heat, it came with a modem that would automatically dial Kentucky Utilities to report any power outage many years before internet connected smart monitoring systems became a thing.

[@99jeepxjguy97]

Yes, I do want a geothermal heat pump system. It was discussed when I was building my house 13 years ago. The initial cost at that time discouraged me. I recently replaced my refrigerant to air heat pump and the inside coil and furnace as well. I still wish I had just "sucked it up" 13 years ago. Because now i have spent probably pretty close to what it would have cost me then. And i would not have had to spend the money to fix this system. And in 10-15 years, I will be doing it all over again with the current refrigerant to air system.

[@blackmephistopheles2273]

Geothermal: Heat and cool your home, with (indirect) nuclear power!

[@adus123]

and your point is?

[@richard_from_england333]

We do that already if you didn't know

[@markdestito9773]

I live in upstate ny. We installed a slinky loop Geothermal system 15yrs ago. It's awesome if we ever build a new home it will have Geothermal system installed. As for government kick back it's based on your income ! The higher your income the less government assistance you get ! Like I said 15yrs and no problems !

[@patrickbyrne8981]

I install geothermal large and small a few things are very important. In closed loop you need to create turbulent flow vs laminar flow. There no pipe fusion joints under ground. Use the right pipe not well pipe because it looks the same. Use 600' of pipe per ton of heat pump. Bury the ground loops at 8and 6 feet. Cheap out at 7and 5 feet. Don't use slinky coils. That's cheaper too. Make sure the piping to the ground loops coils is piped reverse/ return. Make sure the buffer tank is large enough bigger is better. coaxial coils are ok for closed loop use curpronickle for open loop. 350 - 400 % efficient buy one kilowatt get 3.5 or4

[@makingithappen5178]

Here in northern Sweden, exclusively deep-drilled holes are used for this.

[@QiuyuanChenRyan916]

Geothermal sytem is the larger the buffer the better. For a single house it really can't offset the cost of installation, it suits best for district heating system so that needs at least 15 houses together to make sense.

[@ErrtuZarathos]

When we build our house, it was no-brainer to get geothermal heating. We mainly use vertical loops and only one loop per house here in Finland. Length of it depends on your system and soil. Ours was 150m long. Almost 500ft. We don't bring heat in houses via air, but we use heated water under floor.. only the cooling part is water to air system. There is lots of synergy when you use also cooling in your geothermal, because you add heat on the ground in summers and draw it back on winters. If you only draw heat whilst it's cold and have "save" money when drilled too short well, you might up end with hole where you just don't get enough heat anymore.. and the it will cost you more.

[@mauichaui641]

I think its worth for people who live out in the middle of no where or a large commercial property. I work on many buildings that utilize both open loop and closed loop systems what I find with my commercial properties that use the closed loop geothermal is that they need supplemental cooling ie cooling tower.

[@mijalic1]

Great presentation. Thank you for your time and effort to make this video and share it with us. Greetings from Croatia.

[@nononono3421]

You could lay those in a straight line under farming fields, making them easier to pullout and pull back in without having to dig them out for maintenance, you just pull them like an electrical wire.

[@DAzZuLK]

I think worth the cost. Even if in some cases, are not immediately a win (or seem so), it can be considered an insurance. Many things can change on a 20 year+ time span. Putting money to secure a lesser amount of money required to maintain a house, totally worth it from my perspective.

[@simplygaming2280]

I've been in HVAC roughly 15 years have installed quite a few geothermal units and a big plus side is, Tax Credit. Normally when I tell a customer the cost of a system of course they shy away and can't justify the price in utilities for the price of a costly system. Until, you realize Uncle Sam will give you 1/3 of that money back for going green. So, yes in my opinion it's worth it, I only have a regular heat pump and even that to me works great but geothermal would still cut my cost down a little. Downside here is, in city limits you can't get a water source heat pump since you need your own well to run it off of. Hopefully in the near future that all changes :)

[@jkee9760]

I'm planning on building a home soon, and this helped out a lot with choosing a heating/cooling decision.

[@StayPuftMarshmellow]

Yes it is. Going on 20 years and have ice cold ac in the summer and warm heat in the winter. Barely notice the increase in electric compared to what gas and central air would be.

[@paulscott6605]

Yes it's worth the cost ! Had geothermal put in in '07 utilizing a 1 acre pond at a cost of $13000. after rebates .Our cost to heat with oil the previous year was $5500.00. Over the next few years we saved that amount but paid $900 to $1100 per year in additional electricity usage. The return on investment was 3yrs. and it has been reliable ever since only requiring a new blower motor in '19. We now also have 17KW of solar so the savings are just that much better.

[@buckdown1658]

Didn't even know this stuff existed! That's awesome, they should make a law that all new construction have this installed.

[@stephentroyer3831]

I like geothermal, but I love the consistency and clarity of your infographics in your videos.

[@patriciatuite1522]

Did you know that there is a pilot program in Texas(?) that is exploring the use of decommissioned oil drilling sights to provide geothermal systems?

[@darrelmurphy4930]

One of the factors that everyone uses to justify its use, is the ground temp being 60°, which is usually warmer than air temperature. This is good, but why not use a forced air system that returns home air back to the furnace as in times past? Return air should be at least 65°. So why not eliminate the ground loop?

[@infocat13]

I like the Kansa show box heat pump to bypass boilers and HVAC systems

[@imzjustplayin]

I think air source heat pump + solar pv is the most economical assuming you've got the ability to generate a decent amount of electricity from sunlight. Air source heat pumps work down to -18F if you get the highest efficiency models.

[@guidoplaggenborg1354]

Excellent, comprehensive and fun to watch. Thank you for sharing and incentivized to learn more.

[@ellioteaston7745]

The higher upfront costs of geothermal systems is why NY and MA are pushing newer air-source heat pumps to replace heating oil in both states with rich incentives. Newer ASHPs are far more efficient than the ASHPs from the 70s-80s and can also be integrated into utility economic demand response programs. They are also far more “plug-and-play” than GSHPs and far cheaper. In the early days of GSHPs there were many poorly designed systems. I know one school district in Upstate NY that built a new building with a GSHP system. Unfortunately whoever designed it didn’t realize that the heating/cooling loads were not balanced. After five years of running the system only during the winter the area surrounding the loops remained cooler than average ground heat because no heat was being pumped back in. The system started straining to produce any heat at all during the winter with the end result being a conventional natural gas system being installed costing the school district millions more. Residential GSHPs should be more balanced over time.

[@uni4rm]

As long as you aren't getting bad installs with standard HVAC, you will likely only have to worry about an HVAC replacement on your house maybe twice in your entire lifetime, assuming you don't get a house until you are an adult. An HVAC unit with minor upkeep will last 30 years. Compare that to a car, a child, or even a dog, an HVAC replacement is an insignificant and rare event that is resolved in an afternoon, or just an hour or so, compared to getting Geo repaired or installed.

[@paconrail1238]

I have an open loop system using a well. The water is a constant mid 50 degrees.

[@weridemotoz5551]

I had it installed here in BC Canada. If my only other option is electrical heat then it was marginally worth it. But compared to gas heat it is definitely not worth it. In retrospect I should have just installed a gas furnace for the two or three months of cold and an air source heat pump for shoulder seasons and air conditioning.

[@lamelama22]

Good video & clear explanations; I didn't know geo thermal heat pumps were that widespread and/or available, particularly for residential / small installations. One minor note: the way the COP was explained was somewhat misleading, as you basically said geo-thermal heat pumps are specifically more efficient than other regular heating/cooling methods because they have a COP range of 2 to 5. However, that's not correct; regular heat pumps, aka normal air conditioners and the combo A/C / heater units more popular in other parts of the US, *also* have the same COP range. The difference is that since they exchange heat with the above ground air immediately outside your house, their efficiency drops with more extreme temperatures, where the underground ones are more insulated from the extreme temps. The benefit though, is that unlike these multi-thousand $ units, small wall mounted units are extremely cheap in comparison, even to the point where you can install a lot of the smaller systems yourself. Also, with the COP, it was just like "oh this number means it's more efficient" but didn't really explain how it related to conventional heaters. Conventional electric heaters are effectively ~99% efficient at turning electricity into heat; but the grid itself is only like 40% efficient in turning chemical energy like natural gas into electricity; so at grid level they're ~40% efficient. Stealing some numbers from Tech Connections video on heat pumps; a standard northern US natural gas furnace is ~90% efficient at turning chemical energy into heat. So a heat pump, since it runs on electricity, generally needs a COP of 2.5 just to break even. And COP is the same as efficiency (not explained), i.e. 2.5 COP = 250% efficiency. The main piece of info I would've wanted to see in this video was how a geo-thermal heat pump compared to a normal air heat pump A/C unit or to a regular air heat pump in both heating & cooling modes - that's the main comparison; but I don't think regular heat pumps were even mentioned other than saying that these geo-thermal heat pumps were better than other cooling.

[@Bluelagoonstudios]

I live in an area where there are a lot of small apartments, without free space, like a yard. So for us this pretty much impossible, also sun panels are not allowed, because they would only serve one household, which is discrimination. The only thing we did was placing three layering glass for our windows/ doors. So this is only for the happy few who has a house, with a big place in their backyard. Those peeps, are the more rich people, who can pay for this kind of systems, while we can't do anything, besides isolate. I wish scientists would find solutions for us as well.

[@daviddiehl197]

Put the ones I do under the asphalt driveway. Also melts the snow in winter.

[@pburke5760]

if you'd like to do a story on this in the future, im building a house in Lincoln nh and were going to use geothermal as our heating and cooling.

[@ReticulatingSplines_]

They're not enough in colder parts of the US. Where it gets really cold, Midwest, etc, you'll end up spending $$$ on electric heat on cold days.

[@thatguy6207]

Large scale deep heat is the best answer to energy problem.

[@user-LoveAllah]

I need the one who can make this for my home . I need to make my home cool at all time . I can pay the truth mony . I live in Sultanate of Oman . Big greating for you 😘

[@JohnDoe-yq9ml]

My parents have this in their home and it sucks. Not as good as you’d think. Yes everything was done right.

[@anasazirose]

The costs of heating at 15% and cooling at 16% would not add up to 31% simply because you heat during the cold season and cool during the hot season.You would not use both at the same time , which means it would not account for 31%.

[@SMGJohn]

This technology is pretty ancient, its existed before the era of Steam power, although there were no giant pump like that, it was all passive. Sometimes, the simplest solutions, are often the best ones, in Soviet Union they built these geothermal heating and cooling solutions for entire cities in northern Siberia because these places were too far away from national electric grid and railway connections, the only way to heat was to supply electricity locally or stock up on heating OIL, that was not logical, heat pumps however for entire apartment blocks made more sense and far more efficient and they had the space and land for it as well.

[@kottelkannim4919]

When comparing two equivalent systems, KISS (Keep It Stupid Simple) is a crucial factor for deciding. My non-statistical experience with similar kind of heat pumps shows that these are complex systems to maintain, and that longevity numbers supplied in this video are exaggerated. A high price tag for these systems means one thing - the technology is not ripe for home installation.

[@jmodified]

I have a friend with one of these systems. Over the last twenty years he's had about $15,000 total in repair costs. The parts are expensive and he can't just call a local AC company - someone has to come from 100 miles away and he usually has to wait a few weeks. The system cost was also about $16,000 more than a normal one. His electric bills are very low, and maybe he broke even money-wise (he has a large house with a lot of glass), but it has been a huge hassle with the repairs.

[@kottelkannim4919]

@@jmodified I have similar experience with a McQuay air source heat pump used for heating shower water for 10 apartments (~1,000 liter water tank). The compressor gave up after 6 years of use. The system cost was roughly 15,000$ in current exchange rate - I live in Israel in an ideal location for the operation of this system. Minimal air temperature here is 5°C. Peak CoP was around 2 in the summer, but that is because too small a heat dissipater was installed in the water tank. It is now replaced by simple heaters whose cost is 1/3 of of the air pump's, and any electrician can handle (well, it is simple enough for me to handle). Actually I did not have to replace the system. I just turned on the heaters that where pre-installed in the water tank as a backup for a failing heat pump.

[@pixies64]

i plan to build a house in the future and i'm defiantly going to be looking into geothermal energy as defenlty got to be easier to install before the house is built

[@Creati_Xx]

AC really is a big thing in the USA but it isnt over here in Europe, or atleast not in residential buildings, we're looking into geothermal as well but our houses can be pretty wel insulated which keeps all of the heat outside during the summer. If ofcource you're not stupid and let open a window to soon. That aside, nice video!

[@vidsbyme2590]

Natural gas is cheaper but if you don't have access to that everyone in my area prefers Geothermal if the other choice is propane gas.

[@r.t.7925]

2:32 -Liquids are non-compressible. There is a refrigerant inside that water source heat pump.

[@Christopher-li7uc]

Ive installed and serviced water furnace for 21 years and found there are 2 types of geothermal , broke down and fixing to break down 😂 if it last 20 years without many problems you are lucy and may pay off the difference vs a nice heat pump .

[@jeffreycole9834]

In 1980 I was promoting geothermal heating/cooling systems. I was laughed at. Most have recently told me they wish they would have listened to me then.

[@DoctorMangler]

They work fine, but they cost around 2x more than a gas boiler or furnace. You're pumping more crap into the atmosphere by using heat pumps. They also need maintenance just like everything else with moving parts. Heat pumps suck when you consider the cost of operation.

[@Stettafire]

Ja. I was quoted £7k for gas and £20k for a heat pump. Otherwise I would've done it

[@Geoff_G]

A bit off topic for this video but, I've never understood why the heat in the ground near Centralia PA has never been harnessed for power generation.

[@Robert-08542]

Do you have any Videos comparing Solar to Geo and/or a combo of the two? And how would wind fit into that scheme? Thanks, for your unending supply of great Videos.

[@danengel774]

Matt, enjoy your programs. I'm building a new hom that will be off grid with solar power only. I'm looking at air/water heat pumps to provide hydronic floor heat. I live in norther Ontario Canada,, so a little worse weather than you. I wondered what type of power demand you are seeing on your heat pumps? I trying to size my solar batteries.

[@plasmahawk3693]

This is exactly the heating system I need and I'm going to build it! Thank you Matt Ferrell.

[@bronwenhook6088]

Did you do it? If so would love to hear how!

[@tf7274]

It's great when it's good and terrible when it goes bad. Almost never stand alone in Canada. You have to have supplement heat. Even if you oversize your unit Which means the your utility bill is paid up front...for 20 years...but in actual experience, if you have 3-5 issues in that 20 years...it doesn't pay for itself in its entire life.