Is it better to use plastic pipes instead of copper ones ?

[@ratchriat1716]

there's nothing better then a solid copper pipe last for a long-time and always finish the job beautifully.

[@dereton33]

I agree Ratch.

[@Rabi7468]

Auto manufacturers use rubber O rings in brake pipes because they are very reliable and lasts for decades, you trust them with your life. JG speed fit use EPDM O rings same type of material used in Aircraft and Submarines.

[@dereton33]

OK Thanks, perish the thought.

[@MikeandSully]

That is a brilliant point.

[@ReX-jo6hb]

Very true, let's also add that the lifespan of EPDM o-rings not exposed to solvents is incredibly higher than we could possibly imagine. How many flexible tap connectors have you seen leaking due to damaged rubber? Push fitting leaks are caused by wrong installations: no lubrification the o-ring and pipe before pushing the pipe, pipe not properly cut and deburred, dirt on the pipe or marks on the pipe in proximity of the area where the o-ring will sit. All these problems can surface later on, not necessarily when the pipe is installed. With plastic fittings everyone is a plumber, so you get poor jobs from rouge traders that have never worked on plumbing before. As engineer and passionate DIYer, I had to fix quite few issues left by a rogue developer and I can tell that the problem is not the material, but the people using it.

[@michaelhall7921]

Probably that French /english jet with 8 on board which crashed at the Paris air show (of all places) might have had rubber in it? Only lidding ...lol. I once saw a rep selling plastic taps at the side of myself at the merchants counter..... OPELLA//////???? I sneared at him and said they are no way as lasting as metal now are they. He liked them because he said === you can choose lots of different colours! Not many plastic taps about? many plastics used on shower fitting i fear.... Ever had a fxxxing plastic thread strip? not many havn't?..... O rings what would we do without them? Biodiesel sorts out the quality however and only one is up to it, Viton = FKM...... EDPM will not cope or any other rubbers. It even sweats through polythene unbelievably. Please compare for engineering choice between a compression fitting where that joint can be used and a joint relying on an O ring?

[@michaelhall7921]

@@dereton33 Brilliant pun? just clicked LoL LoL Lol....... Just a thought =no one likes water pouring through the ceiling now do they?

[@sarto7bellys]

The o ring will last for years, there will have been trials and tests with different o ring compounds before settling on any specific one. Generally leakage is caused by either not pushing the tube in far enough past the o ring on installation or not depressing the release sleeve to remove the plastic tube (for whatever reason) during installation. It is very difficult to remove the tube without depressing the release sleeve but it can be done by a determined installer, this results in the grab ring inside the fitting scoring the tube , reinstallation without cutting the tube results in the o ring not sealing correctly on the score marks leading to leakage.

[@dereton33]

Thanks Rob.

[@michaelhall7921]

Have you seen a plastic fitting blow off a pipe. Fair enough it was a 22 copper pipe & was low pressure till I think it froze at the bottom>? A long time ain't good enough for many 'Heating engineers and especially 'Commercial Heating engineers' Plastic does not compare in quality and longevity to either iron or stainless or copper pipework on Heating. It is the better choice on domestic water due to the fact it does not suffer electrolytic corrosion but even then for a more secure job gunmetal (CR) compression fittings are best hands down. That is if the customer can afford them? Have you seen a pex pipe with an aluminium as opposed to hard plastic barrier. The europeans use it but the diameter is bigger?

[@GhostvaperYT]

listen mate if your worried tell them to use copper OR get another plumber. they are there to do what needs doing to THE CUSTOMERS SATISFACTION

[@dereton33]

Bang on GhostvaperYT.

[@ackec-umsekkruch-ekucki952]

Question was though what should the customer prefer. PEX is quick. Copper feels much more solid. It's also fully recyclable. Still, no scientific proof either way. What would you recommend your client do then?

[@GhostvaperYT]

@@ackec-umsekkruch-ekucki952 all i know is my house was built in 1860's and it's current heating pipes were put in sometimes 1980's. now the boiler has been replaced at least twice but the same copper pipes have not failed once! so i say copper because mines lasted at least 40 years without issue

[@ackec-umsekkruch-ekucki952]

@@GhostvaperYT I know. The thing is nowadays everything is getting ripped out every 10 years. I hope this trend comes to an end but lots of times the longevity argument falls on deaf ears "mate, I'll have moved 10 times by then"! Consumerism has been destroying trades for a long time.

[@GhostvaperYT]

@@ackec-umsekkruch-ekucki952 yeah you are right and also some trades people want stuff to fail so they will be paid to come back and fix it!!! like my washer, i found out later it was made so badly the parts wore out within 3 years and it was designed like that on purpose so you have to spend ££££!!!

[@Cardetailingburnley]

I have used plastic for years and no issues with it

[@dereton33]

Thanks Sam.

[@ianstevens8696]

Very useful - thanks! I'm going to put a small rad in our onsuite. I want to put the pipes in the wall cavity for neatness and thought plastic would be good to use. Now, I think I'll go for traditional copper!

[@dereton33]

Best stuff, do not forget to lag them if in a cavity.

[@heatpump8566]

Good video as usual derek. Plastic pipes also increase resistance. I’m personally a copper man

[@dereton33]

Me too Paul.

[@Chris-ps2lx]

Got to say: I’ve seen more leaks / problems from plastic fittings and pipe than I hav from copper.

[@dereton33]

Thanks Chris.

[@michaelbalfour3170]

Where do you see the leaks? is it the joints? I was thinking for my upstairs heating loop of 2 radiators just using a single pipe to the boiler then a single pipe between the 2 radiators and a single piece back to the boiler, totaling 6 joints. My thinking was this would reduce possible leaks and would be very easy for me, an average diy'er, to fit. Basically my question is, do you see the leaks in the pipes or the joints, many thanks.

[@al2207]

best way use CPVC pipe with cemented fitting

[@andynewton6235]

Thanks Al. I suppose cleanly cutting a copper pipe with a pipe slicer and removing the burrs will minimise any nicks to the rubber seal. Happy Christmas to you and yours!

[@dereton33]

Thanks Andy have a good Christmas yourself.

[@LS-td3dz]

These plastic fittings use the same epdm o rings as the press fit fittings. Lots of plumbers are using press fit now. I see no difference in using push fit fittings provided the pipe is cut using the reccomended cutters and the pipe liner is fitted.

[@dereton33]

Thanks.

[@rabmc]

I’ve used JG speedfit for my full hot and cold water in my house that I bought, from stop cock to a few metres from my boiler/ where copper meets, all with the correct inserts and cutting tool, over a year in “touch wood” no issues at all, I’ve used hep20 for my heating system and I’ve had one leak but more my fault than a product fail.

[@dereton33]

Thanks for the input Rab.

[@andyowens5494]

I’ve never had a problem with copper (and some of my houses had installations from the 1960’s). I’ve had two leaks from plastic fittings in the last 20 years. For most people, the longevity of plastic will be sufficient for the time they live in the property, but I pity the kids buying property with it fitted as I sincerely doubt it will be trouble free for life. I get the benefits for long runs in the street with proper bonded joints, but I just cant see a full domestic system with many fittings being trouble free for such a long time. Its like cars; after 15-20 years, rubber bits start to decay, and eventually things like wiring insulation start to fail, so simple mechanical servicing isn’t enough. The trust in the tiniest surface of butyl rubber is immense.

[@loafersheffield]

People want instantaneous gratification and cheap stuff. Some of my older customers insist on copper, which I prefer but quote completely and exclusively for copper and get passed over, for the work, by a n other. Regrettably, I have started using it more for this very reason. Another problem are mice and rats. They have to gnaw as their teeth grow continuously.

[@dereton33]

Thanks Andy.

[@andyowens5494]

loafer sheffield Sadly, yep; WIIFM mentality. Still, keeps plumbers in business for future repairs; every cloud :)

[@loafersheffield]

@Andy Owens Aaaaaaaaaargh! bane of my life. (Apart from the missus) Penny Pinching Proverbials I call 'em. Sign of the times. I spend much more time putting right cock-ups by others and it's not always diy-ers. Worst is call backs to customers who have passed me over to others on the basis of cost. Thankfully, I either just don't bother or plainly state " this is gonna cost ya!" I call it the insult premium.

[@dereton33]

That sounds good to me Loafer.

[@asif530]

I would use pex al pex or mlcp pipe personally just because of air entering in the system with speedfit also ease of use. Although where possible I still use copper as I had an issue with speed fit plastic pipe put in when I had an extension done and a rat chewed the pipe between the cavity of the old house into the extension. Never knew I had a leak until some dampness appeared on the wall.

[@michaelhall7921]

At 82 I've got a lot behind me! Luckily I still have my 'marbles' and enjoy such projects as tig welding a stainless towel rail in our static caravan = warmest room in the van! 4" flanged all welded mains in one job back in 1972 in the boiler house. Not thread to be seen! Plastic compared to copper =NO..... Even on mains that have to be pex in ducts that can be replaced through accesses the joints I would say must be compression fittings...... Murphy's law? If it ca happen it will happen. Is the manufactured rubber o ring 'viton'? If through cheapo choice it's not then it's inferior in my opinion. The plastic lovers say plastic will last a long time! Most thinking heating engineers of expertise would choose copper every time for heating...... domestic hot and cold is a totally different matter and is the right choice for that application. Best wishes.

[@ryanh3285]

I moved radiator and to use copper pipe i would have had to lift a stupid amount off floorboards in 2 room's to get it in so plastic for me and it's been fine.

[@dereton33]

Thanks Ryan.

[@metallitech]

Of course an o-ring will perish eventually. Soldered copper pipe is fantastic and I would not settle for anything else.

[@dereton33]

Thanks for the input.

[@Festoolification]

Own house going to go for copper for the central heating and plastic for hot and cold water so hedging my bets somewhat, mainly because gong to re-use most of the existing heating plumbing already in place and copper to match. Generally materials have improved seen lots of very badly degraded rubber electric cable, zero age related pic sheathed cable defects (though have seen plenty with vermin damage). As mentioned plastic needs to be installed correctly, copper also has its issues especially when bent - outside bends the copper gets significantly reduced in thickness and seen corrosion eat pinholes through such bends.

[@dereton33]

Thanks for the input Festy.

[@michaelhall7921]

You are definitely doing the right thing so you must be a thinking engineer? You'll have piece of mind, especially if you are staying in the same place a very long time. The USA, I heard way back did not allow bending but the folks used fittings. as you say the bending causes thinning on the outer..... Mind you what happened to the table 1 when I was a young H eng.? It was lovely. At least a 1/16" thick...... my brother used to be amazed how tight a bend I could form with a spring! It took 76 years for the iron mains to pin hole our water service = 3/4" copper. I had to improvise a lump of steel, 1" iron to 1/2" reducing socket welded to a lump of 1" iron pipe & pull it under ground to follow the 3/4" using a winch.... Stupid me using concrete in stead of block paving (better idea)...... No wonder the Americans didn't let bending happen. It must have been after the right gauge stopped. 2 Pipes made for the price of 1 = that's the penny pinching manufacturers for you. Best wishes in your endeavours.

[@toml8142]

My concern in the aging of the O ring. I have replaced thousands of them over the years and they do go hard and age. Once 1 is gone they probably all need replacing

[@dereton33]

That is the worry Tom.

[@toml8142]

My other worry coming from an engineering background (not plumbing) is that i have not known plumbers take the care of the O rings that we would working on machinery. Like debuting pipes so they don’t cut the O ring or greasing it so not only for slippage but only to seal better and not dry out as quick. I also have questions on the turbulence/cavitation caused by the plastic insert

[@michaelhall7921]

@@toml8142 Not only that but the disgraceful handling of plastic at the merchants? I used to try to get them to not scrape the plastic on the ground as they dished it out but I might as well have talked to my waste paper basket!!!!! lol.... Done all this and that 4" iron mains welded flanges atc 3" gas main to a 1M 300 thousand btu's automatic 'cob' oven..... what a burner! looked like a jumbo jet engine from the other end of the oven, looking through a brick that was out.... These postage stamp boiler fitters might well be wrong but it's the in expertise of the spouting inexperienced who advocate quite out of order about plastic being =QUITE ALRIGHT to use on heating. If I had to use plastic (pex barrier) pipe on anything I would choose compression fittings to couple it..... Where it should be fitted and essentially needed most plumbers are not using none dezinkifiable ( CR) fittings and in some areas these fittings block up after 4 years. The quality of thought and expertise is abysmal....... The merchants bar tool station and maybe Screwfix have 'phased out gunmetal'. Why = because not many are buying those correct fittings.

[@michaelhall7921]

Hiya Al I've just looked at you vid re your like of copper for heating. I'm right with you on copper ONLY for heating. You like me might have seen barrier pipe behave like spaghetti when it's hot and no where near the boiler. As heatpump says the overlooked added resistance is a crucial difference in cooper compared to plastic. At 82 and working till I was 75 as a commercial heating engineer I am amazed at the lack in expertise of some of the modern ideas. As usual the $£ override common sense? Where pex has to be used i've used it to enable 28mm mains to dross underneath concrete in a duct once! I have just been asked last week to solve a problem. 35kw combi in a loft!. Recently added conservatory vertical rads in Conservatory with plastic pipe work. Due to the added 'head' the combi pump just ain't quite working plus the plastic = more resistance. You most likely as I seen it all before. I suggest what I've done previously for a quick fix = stick another 25-55 now different Grundfos numbers applied. This circulator must be fitted out side of the combi so as not to interfere with any of the combi electrics or operation etc. Luckily the very nice chap who has the problem is a special electrical boffin. His wife is lovely an is a niece. She managed to get a stainless 25-80 last night for a snip at £227. She askes will I help her husband to fit it? I really hope the pipework is copper! Best wishes to a fellow 'thinking ' heating engineer.

[@dereton33]

Thanks Michael, great info for everyone, good luck with it.

[@komplaints7893]

Is there a need for copper instead of plastic near the boiler? Like within a 4 foot radius of it. Im sure I heard somewhere you shouldn't put plastic pipe too close to it because of the intense heat but I really have no idea...

[@dereton33]

I think it is within a metre

[@komplaints7893]

@@dereton33 ah so there is truth to it but its not as drastic as I thought, ok thanks matey!

[@paulthomas3841]

I've got Plastic 10mm in for the Raidaors, and it has Ferd up how I have had NO heat going out of the Raidaors

[@dereton33]

microbore rubbish.

[@michaelhall7921]

If you know what to do or know an engineer who is familiar fitting light commercial Grundfos pumps do it but first flush those pipes. Once they are clear the new pump will transform the system but get ready for a bit of resistance noise because the water will travel through the small pipes at over 3 FT /second! That is if you still have underpar rad temps.....

[@enochpowelghost]

I asked a copper to do me central heating he said get a plumber

[@dereton33]

The old ones are best.

[@rushymoto]

How about plastic runs in the loft and copper pipes down onto the room, in my bungalow. ?

[@dereton33]

Sure, that is fine.

[@BABYCHAOS26]

I always use copper pipe in my own house, the only person that benefits from using plastic is the installer. Makes no real difference to the customer as water flows through the taps and the radiators heat up just the same.

[@dereton33]

Thanks for the input.

[@michaelhall7921]

Water does flow through pipes! That you are right but there is a problem caused by the lack of technical experience expertise and knowledge of the average Plumber heating fitter of postage stamp boilers. The fitter of plastic pipework to heating systems takes a guess at the size of the heating pump often to the customers dismay because certain plumbers after they've gone leave rads that do not get hot. It's all wrong to approach what is a technical job with the idea that anything will do. Light commercial heating pumps don't come cheap but that is often the way to get the luke warn rads hot, that is apart from removing the inadequate plastic pipework that they put in with no regard for the resistance of plastic pipework! First question these characters should ask themselves is = is the heating pump of adequate strength/ power to overcome the resistance of the additional pipework they are fitting..... Another job looming maybe?

[@66journeyman]

Just wondering if there are any issues with the earth bonding if plastic pipe is used in the house and mdpe is used under ground?

[@dereton33]

No issues at all now. See new wiring regs.

[@michaelhall7921]

Only if the plastic melts and the earth clip comes into contact with the water. I don't think I've ever seen an earth on a plastic pipe but anything is possible these days?

[@loafersheffield]

Quote completely and exclusively for copper and get passed over, for the work, by a n other. Regrettably, I have started using it more for this very reason. Of course, care and good practice should always be observed. I like being able to drill through, rather than notching joists. I don't like plastic being on display above floorboard level; always use copper for legs to rads. The worst case scenario are the "wee timorous beasties" that will gnaw plastic. I've encountered that on numerous occasions.

[@dereton33]

Thanks Loafer. Have a good Christmas. Al and Jan.

[@loafersheffield]

Back atchas both. Cheers! I'm really looking forward to getting woken up at some God forsaken hour by a 6 year old. Curmudgeonly and cynical as I appear... this year, I'm looking forward to it. The boy is getting a Scalextric. Woo-hoo!

[@markdavies794]

Copper for me but another question - 15mm or microbore? I went for 15mm but my new house has 15mm under the floor and microbore to the rads. Is there not some special inhibitor for plastic that won't attack the silicon seals on plastic?

[@dereton33]

I have not heard of any.

[@michaelhall7921]

I am assuming which is wrong because wishful thinking has no place in the design & installation of any heating system. I have put little inhibitor in our heating system of nearly 60 years. If you have an unvented system with no leaks at all there should be little corrosion. Our system has had a few betterments over the years and the sealed system is a benefit compared to an open covered tank. A stainless unvented Cyl. is also good I think. But that is my personal choice. It's worth giving technical things such as heating that one needs to last 100 years if possible some deep thinking and only do what is aimed at longevity. It might be worth contacting Sentinel who seemed very cleaver or Fernox on your subject matter. They have both been at it for yonks so they may well be the most eductaed on the subject of corrosion prevention if it involves the relatively new idea of plastic pipework in heating systems. ( not a choice of the thinking heating engineer I would think?

[@markdavies794]

@@michaelhall7921 My first house had central heating fitted when there was a copper shortage (I think in the 1970s) and half the house was piped in steel. I had it replaced with copper as I didn't fancy lots of potential leaks.

[@michaelhall7921]

@@markdavies794 You did right.... Not many folks do it but stainless is the other option for heating. In Crete they are using pex with an aluminium barrier..... It looks tough, but they bury it solid in the conc.!!!!!! They are terrible drivers but looks like there are a few heating engineers with expertise. I've seen it here used I think for commercial refrigeration? The size is not same as our heating pipework though. As a complete guess most houses with mini/micro bore need a light commercial pump to get the standard reg 11C temp diiferential.

[@sergd7885]

only copper )

[@richardfawcett1987]

Can you use plastic pipe for gas?

[@dereton33]

No.

[@MJ-ce6tv]

I don’t know about you but seeing brass compression fittings on plastic pipe fills me with dread.

[@dereton33]

Wondering if there is an insert.

[@MJ-ce6tv]

dereton33 or if the pipe’s been cut with a hacksaw!

[@michaelhall7921]

If quality is the chosen target compression fittings are the one and only fitting to be seen on a plastic pipe and especially on a heating pipe. We are all ('thinking' professionals only)having a good laugh here by gum keep em coming ?

[@michaelhall7921]

@@dereton33 Some must not know about such crucial bits and bobs..... Who thought about the plastic inserts= absolute crap and not fit for compression fittings. Only for the weak plastic fittings. Stainless is the metal for inserts and copper for heating ONLY. Some don't intend to deliver quality at work?

[@stevendouglas3860]

Plastic will perish and these inserts. with high heat and cold days in Britain. I've been in buildings for 40 years and Copper is brilliant. In schools . 1950s to 70s council houses etc etc... still with copper guys .

[@dereton33]

Thanks for the input.

[@michaelhall7921]

At one time the Whitbread surveyor introduced me to a Pub Owner & the landlord said 'hiya plumber'...... The surveyor said no heating engineer .... I think there is a subtle difference.... I've never forgotten that pat on the back! You as I are a thinking fitter /engineer etc Heating engineer =I always desire to weld doing heating after my Plumbing apprenticeship. When I did 4" iron all welded it was hard heavy work. I'ts made me a very amused but sometimes grizzly old git especially re those who would use plastic on any heating system...... The young ones are extremely gullible these days..... I suppose it true to say =you can't beat the old ways....... copper hands down..... No one should ever say they know it all because no one ever does but that choice of copper for any pipework in heating , comes from both our expert opinions and of course there are many other 'thinking'installers of heating systems.

[@geoffreyscott4510]

copper any time

[@dilligaf2386]

I think the concerns are in 10 years from now well one good thing in 10 15 years they'll be lots of work for plumbers and plasters. They will leak in time the rubber ring will eventually perish.

[@dereton33]

Start training now then. Ha ha.

[@paulp1008]

bottom line..a rubber seal WILL deteriorate sooner than solder....

[@dereton33]

Thanks Winston.

[@thpxs0554]

1st, this is the greatest day of my life, I can die happy now.

[@An.Individual]

congrats. Today you own the internet.

[@dereton33]

Ha ha, I don`t think so. I leave that to pop stars and celebrities.

[@michaelhall7921]

LOL I can assume how you feel but it will be very hard to get over some of the 'writings'.

[@michaelhall7921]

This was for @thpxs 0554 but I don't think he'll be able to read it cuz of the tears in his eyes laughing or maybe crying?

[@thpxs0554]

@@michaelhall7921 .. you’re right, everything has been an anticlimax since. I may have to end it all